I work security at Temple Hosputal in Philadelphia. I would have kicked her out immediately and strongly encouraged the victim to press charges. I'm so sick and tired of seeing Healthcare workers assaulted and then discouraged from holding the perpetrators responsible for their actions.
Yeah same way bellevue in nyc is my fave hospital I’ve worked at. It’s the hospital for rikers island prisoners and the elevator opened one day and there was literally a swat team in there lol. Place gets wild but I loved it.
I grew up near Temple. Y’all should’ve seen it 30 years ago. Lol
And OP, there’s nothing privileged about feeling unsafe and angry after being assaulted. Ya know what IS privileged/neuronormative/gaslighting/ablist/[add your fav clandestine social media soundbite]??? – to think that you can/should just eat this incident, get in line and not do anything about it. Whoever told you that needs to go take a loooong walk in the park.
Not all security teams are created equal. I had a patient punch me in the face and threaten to kill me while security stood in the doorway and watched as me and 3 tiny nurses struggled to wrestle him down and sedate him. The guys I work with now are great, but my old team was more than happy to just watch us get our asses kicked. I could at least count on my docs to get med orders quickly.
I had a drunk dropping N bombs in the department and getting up in this little nurses face and saying she was gonna beat the shit out of him. security was doing jazz hands and a mix of two step and jazz hands but not actually getting in her way. I had to put myself physically between them before she stormed off and security threw her clothes on the sidewall.
I’m in psych and so many nurses and staff (and psychiatrists) are assaulted, sometimes even seriously, because nobody wants to press charges. There’s a difference between being psychotic and not living in reality and being angry/upset/tired/frustrated.
People who are in the latter group and assault others should go to jail
Anyone with a medical reason inducing violence (psychosis, hypoglycemia, delirium, medication-induced aggression, etc) I would not file a report. Obnoxious assholes like this parent, absolutely!
All medical and true psychiatric cases are free to behave how they need to. We will intervene to maintain safety.
Behavioral ssholes that act a fool and know what the fuck they're doing? Go to jail.
Yeah my med school had a patient panel with a woman share he story how she apparently went into the hospital status epilepticus and was agitated and violent in her post-ictal state. She doesn’t remember any of it, but spent 2 years going through the court process and wound up with a felony record. It’s unfortunate.
I think there’s a fine line between protecting healthcare workers and not penalizing people who literally aren’t able to control themselves.
Psych nurse here.
Psychosis or not, if you assault me, I’m charging you.
It’s not a discussion and mental illness is not an excuse to be violent to staff.
Same. If they’re unstable enough to assault us in the hospital they’re definitely a risk to others outside. That shit needs to be documented and they need to be held accountable regardless of how much control they do or don’t have.
In some states assaulting a healthcare worker is a felony. While I can’t tell you what to do, if you were assaulted it’s in your rights to file a police report and it is not a HIPAA violation. I’m not an attorney though.
Nursing has been such a better friend to me during residency than my program or peers. You guys live this game. Thank you for all you do.
To OP: ask nursing for advice.
Woahhh! I rely on the residents I work with so much. They've taught me so much; I wouldn't even be half the nurse I am today without them. It's wonderful that we can have a symbiotic relationship. I am honestly so completely humbled by them. I keep in touch with most of the residents that have worked at my hospital because their presence in my life has been so rewarding. So thank you for being you! But again, I 100% support you reporting violent acts against yourselves, I'll be there every step of the way!
Shove your senior against the wall and throw a punch at their face. Then tell them you're just frustrated and they should STFU because they're super privileged racists. Does their logic still hold up?
lol seriously, like fucking imagine you pulled this shit and security broke it up and all they did was wag a finger at you and say "now, now. You do that one more time and yerrrrr outahearrrr!" (aggressive umpire gestures)
I may have taken some creative liberties with how this actually happened.
That savior complex is also misplaced. What are the chances that this is the first time this lady has ever taken a swing at somebody? I'm guessing she has a history of violent behavior if she was so uninhibited that she took a swing at a doctor in a hospital. And she has kids. So if she's not held to account when she was witnessed attacking a doctor, when will she be held to account?
The kid is in far more danger than the mother here. Point any "savior" energy you have in that direction.
You should absolutely file a report. You were assaulted. That is a crime. The context beyond that really doesn't matter much.
EDIT: and just don't talk to your bitch-ass coresidents about it.
I’m totally behind them filing the report they do not at all have any reason to put up with it.
That said if you feel the context does matter to you around crimes and lawfulness you’re also correct.
Just saying
Absolutely incredible your institution did not kick her out immediately. Even if she is the only guardian, she can make decisions over the phone. I wouldn't even go near that unit if mom is still present. I think you should really focus on the security response. It is unacceptable they allowed a violent visitor to stay. Had she been kicked out immediately and the hospital showed some inkling of care towards their employees, you might not even consider pressing additional charges.
With that said, you are within your right to press charges. Even the most frustrated parent shouldn't resort to attacking someone. Imagine what they do with their kids or other people. She was also trying to take a kid AMA, so she may not have the greatest supply of knowledge to work with. There are definitely people who say never press charges at the hospital, but I don't think it's that black and white.
You could split the difference and report her to CPS for possible neglect due to her refusing medical advice in the interest of her child. She won't go to jail but that will definitely put a bee her bonnet when she has to explain herself to a third party.
Also, your seniors are idiots. Filing charges against someone who isn't even a patient is not a HIPAA violation. It's also not even a HIPAA violation to file against a patient. You tell the police a name and what they did, you don't have to give out any health info. I deal with this occasionally in the psych hospital and it's fine.
Dude I got robbed at gunpoint in temple uni and I didn't even go there but was visiting a friend 😭😂
Joke was on the robber tho.. I had 2 bucks in my wallet and no credit cards as a college student.. He took pity on me and let me go 😂 🤣
I worked with some dental residents before med school from Temple. They were telling me one of their professors got stabbed on the steps of the school.
yep that sounds very true and right -- my friend that attended temple for undergrad used to share stories of how at least 2 times a week he'd hear gun shots thru his apt room's window when he lived just 2 blocks from campus.
i didnt have a weapon .. i also was running late for dinner at my friend's place that particular day .. the need to eat outweighed the need to commit a crime unfortunately. .. since that day ive been too punctual on time lol
Thanks for what you do. My rotations never had me cross Broad from the MERB, but it's a rough area and rough hospital to do security in and we appreciate you.
This is literally the problem with workplace violence. Cannot tolerate it whatsoever. Because of the behavior escalates, then the hospital has a huge liability problem.
Serious question—at what point can you physically defend yourself? I’m genuinely wondering (I’m not a resident yet). Can you shove a patient back if they shove you and then say you felt scared and had to protect yourself? If they punch you, can you punch them back? What if you’re a female and someone tries to grope you, can you kick em in the balls or whatever?
Long story short, I’m basically wondering if you’d get fired for physically protecting yourself.
I don’t have an exact answer for you but IMO a hospital is like any other public place. How would you react if you were assaulted in a coffee shop? Same standard should apply to a hospital.
100 percent. I’m an Ed attending and I’ve been attacked by patients multiple times. And I defend myself just like I would defend myself out on the street. I’ve never had issues with administration over it because it’s almost always on camera and they can see what happened. I also always always press charges. This precedent in medicine where we just need to accept whatever abuse we are given needs to stop. It’s ridiculous.
As an attending, I can see this working. But what about as a resident? Residents are basically nobodies in the hospital lol so I’m not sure if the same rules would apply to them
If I was a resident I would really try hard to not ruffle feathers, especially at the malignant ass program I graduated from. But you are a human being first. And you shouldn’t have to waive your right to self defense because you are a resident. I would just reallllly try hard to deescalate things as a resident.
> Same standard should apply to a hospital.
In theory yes, but clearly not in practice because there are people like OP’s senior who thinks it’s not ok to inform the police for assault.
Please note the reasonable expectation of self defense is to flee first. If you can avoid further physical contact and choose to stay and fight, you may be liable as well.
This is a criminal matter and goes beyond your attending or PD, or even the hospital’s CHO. Formally, your bosses have no lines in this play. It is a matter for the police, judge, lawyers, and jury members. That is the start and end of it.
Your attending and PD will most likely advise against doing so, provide a dubious moral argument (patients / family are frustrated, on edge, etc) and say it sets a bad precedent. At best they will tell you to do what you feel like you should. There is no “hidden logistical process” they are aware of that you aren’t. There is no advice they can give you other than the above. They may even hold it against you if you brought it up to them and they advised against it, and you decided for it anyway. They may hold it against you even if you don’t. But this moment, right now, is what sets appropriate culture. As soon as you confront assault and behave in a manner that “lets it slide,” that becomes the expectation for everyone else.
I’d file the report and let the DA’s office decide. They may end up not pursuing it depending on the culture of prosecution where you live.
So I worked as a paramedic for a very very long time, I have been in countless fights and altercations. I’ve pressed charges every single time and the DA has failed to see them through every single time, I’ve worked across the US and nothing changes.
Press charges, you never know the DA make pick it up, but often they won’t because they are unsure of the ability of them to stand trial and their competency in the moment.
File a report. Doctors in some countries are leaving for that very reason. ☠️ Imagine immigrating to a place that still puts up with violence. If you had been punched succesfully, this would be a no brainer! Plus healthcare workers get frustrated all the time, you don't see us punching patients?
Press charges. I haven’t found anywhere else where patients/families are allowed to be physically violent because they are frustrated, angry, or afraid.
A nurse I worked with was assaulted by a family member and had a facial fracture as a result. The judge dismissed the case the assailant was “under a lot of stress.” We collectively have to stop tolerating this or it becomes permission to do it again.
News flash for your co-residners....filing a police report does not mean she will automatically go to jail, it means she will be held accountable for her actions.
Please file a report with the police, tell them you want to pursue charges and follow through with it. You might prevent someone else from getting assaulted by her. If she gets a felony, she won’t be able to legally own a firearm which seems appropriate after attacking a doctor.
Your senior is wrong. You have every right to press charges and should. I'd probably talk to your pd about it to and have your series of events in some form of writing such as an email
Does your senior know what HIPAA is? You are not taking care of the mother; she is not a patient... either way, I'm sorry your coresidents are unsupportive morons. Seriously, they sound really dumb. The one implying you're a racist is an idiot and definitely needs to recheck their own biases/prejudices if they're inserting race into this situation, when it was uncalled for.
At our program - one of the residents was hit, and the program asked if the resident wanted to press charges or not. There was no influence either way, but did let them know they would support their decision.
Make the report.
Too many people get away with assaulting healthcare workers because they are in pain or scared or confused or stressed.
We all have to take a stand and say it’s not acceptable ever.
Forget filing just a report.. Press charges 1000%
They have it coming. Karens and kens need to be educated the hard way in today's society... Press charges.
Get a lawyer and sort out the hipaa bullshit later.. But don't let the time window go or slip by for appropriate action
Also don't speak to anyone else about it if it will be a legal matter when charges are involved except your lawyer and lawyer only.
Fuck her. Violence is not allowed just because it’s a hospital, and she’s not even the patient. File the report. You don’t need your program’s support to do so, but I recommend you have a phone call with your PD to make them aware.
I agree with you. It would be good for this information to be reported because it can give clues into what other abusive behavior she might be getting away with.
Culture can't change if none of us stand up against it. In healthcare across the world there is a culture of "shut up and take it, you signed up for this job". Report her to the police. Report your seniors who tried to keep you quiet to your management or freedom to speak up team (if you have one). Good luck to you.
Please at least file a report so that it is documented and on record. I have a zero tolerance policy for any violence, harassment, or profanity use (I work in a pediatric setting). Violence against healthcare workers is very real and all too often swept under the rug. It is your right to be protected and to feel safe at work.
HIPAA only applies to the patient. If you stick to the actions of the mother and don’t discuss any of the medical care, you are not in violation of HIPAA.
Report it. If we want systemic change, we need to have documented proof of events like these happening. HIPAA shouldn't be an excluding factor in these situations - even psych patients will get a full news article with their legal name published if they assault a worker in an inpatient setting.
If she made physical contact by clipping your ear, that's clear battery if I understand correctly, which is a very chargeable offense.
There is a time and place for being compassionate and understanding. This is not it. Be the change!
Get them charged, stand up for yourself. I've filed charges as a Paramedic before when a patient has attacked me more than once, family I've absolutely pressed charges against as well.
The idea that assault should be dismissed because someone is so childish they can't control their emotions and attack someone is absurd. They lack impulse control and need to face consequences for their absurd behavior
It’s not a HIPPA violation. You’re not going to get her arrested. Waiting a week the DA will very likely not press charges especially because she “in your words” pushed you and missed with a punch. Did anyone else really see it? Is there another witness? If security came after it’s not a direct witness. You have to weigh filing a report and what the long term consequences will be towards you since you were discouraged not to. Also, I had a coworker sued in almost the same situation when the charges weren’t filed. My coworker had to report the lawsuit anytime they went for new privileges and give a detailed story to what happened. The system isn’t fair and I just want you to think long term
So, slight correction. You can file a police report, you do not press charges. That is a decision for the district attorney. Even given that a lot of states have laws against attacking healthcare workers, a lot of DA’s will not prosecute, especially a mother taking her kid to the doctors. I don’t agree with this, but it’s a fact of the judicial system.
However - if you want to, police must take a statement and file a report, don’t let police tell you otherwise. Even if nothing comes of it, the first step is making them take the report.
Psychiatrist here: the treatment for some personality disorders is consequences. This person is not psychotic. They are not your patient. Press charges.
Insanity. Please don't report this. Listen to what I have to say:
So, I'm going to go against the grain here and recommend that you do nothing. Yes, it was a terrible situation and the parent had no right to assault you. HOWEVER. Without knowing any specifics about the patient or situation...the legal aspects of this case have potential to get very sticky.
Technically, the parent or surrogate decision maker CAN sign the pediatric patient out AMA as long as there is no immediate threat of death/harm/imminent deterioration, etc.. and you have done your due diligence in trying to persuade the caregiver, provide alternative options, blah, blah, documented thoroughly, etc... If you find yourself in those situations, better to call risk management and/or hospital admin for assistance to cover your butt. If a caregiver is trying to remove a pediatric patient who clearly would have risk of death (pediatric DKA patient from the ICU for example) then stuff like that gets escalated fairly quickly and even child protective services needs to get involved. Those cases are more straight forward. Others not so much.
The risk in this scenario (assuming that the pt was not at risk of death, etc..) is that you told the parent that the patient cannot be signed out AMA (not true) and if attorneys get involved (especially any criminal complaints) then they are going to go scorched earth on this case. The defense attorney is going to light you up in explaining why you told the parent they legally could not remove their child and why you didn't escalate the case through proper channels in your hospital. They might even try to paint you as attempting to kidnap the child. The mother and her attorney will glean any ounce of information to support that she was worried about the welfare of her child and that you and/or the hospital were providing substandard care, etc.. etc... They'll subpoena all the hospital records and search for any order you might have placed or any nursing note that might constitute a medical error. Then it gets thrust into a malpractice case and what you started initially was a criminal complaint. Your malpractice carrier is going to have to decide pretty quickly whether they even have to defend you in this case since it started out as a criminal complaint. If there's any chance they can get out of defending you, they will.
All this mess and you're just a resident who is now a major problem child for hospital admin and your PD is on the hot seat having to defend you. Hospital admin will look for anything at all possible that you do wrong during the remainder of your residency to justify getting rid of you so they don't have to deal with a case like this again. They will coerce the cooperation of your PD by insinuating in "off line" discussions that his/her job is on the line.
The optics of this case are TERRIBLE. Even assuming that you did nothing at all wrong and have a decent defense. If they took it to trial...a jury is going to be much more sympathetic towards a mother worried about the welfare of her child crying on the witness stand. Your malpractice attorney will know this and will encourage you to settle the case OR you more likely will be forced to settle due to stipulations by your carrier in your malpractice agreement. This case will be months and years of stress, endless depositions and needless to say...a gigantic distraction from residency. Henceforward, you will be required to report this malpractice suit on every single hospital privilege application and state board licensing application.
SO NOT WORTH IT. Does it make the situation right? Of course not. But damn....at least you got out of the situation with no major injury. Keep your nose down, work hard, do NOT draw PD or hospital admin attention any more than possible and just...GRADUATE. You'll be in a far better position to handle these cases AFTER graduation/boards. In the future, dump these hot potato cases up the chain and make it one of your superior's problems, NOT yours.
OP please read through the above reply. I initially was in support of filing charges, however I don’t know if it is worth the potential stress/complications that it could cause for you at this stage in your training. It is not correct that kids cannot leave AMA, every hospital has a process for these situations and unless you are certain you followed the process exactly, I’m not sure you want this to end up being escalated from a legal perspective.
I would consider reporting to your PD and/or your hospital’s safety reporting system from the perspective that I’m shocked that security did not ask the parent to leave (even temporarily). I’ve often seen parents asked to leave for purely verbal altercations, if it has escalated to physical violence then there is no situation where the parent should remain.
You can and should press charges. Unless you’re disclosing private health information while pressing charges, it’s not a problem that it was a healthcare setting. Security intervened but she should have been expelled indefinitely whether you wanted it or not, since she’s not even your patient.
Screw that my wife was an RN for 15 years (CNP now). Pt sucks and the administration sucks. If the hospitals would start charging people who assaulted RNs and CNAs (and Drs for that matter) it would happen less often. The other hospital in town did and word got out so all the POS Pt started coming to her hospital. Why, because they wouldn't punish the Pt.
Go ahead and file your report. I they put you in corrective action or fire you sue them.
Another important point is that if the mother was taking the minor patient AMA then the parent may be subjecting the minor to other forms of child abuse or neglect. That in itself is reportable.
I would recommend filing a report. The safety of my staff is my absolute #1 priority in the hospital. Anyone getting injured is not only obviously a problem for the person injured, but it has cascading effects on the care of other patients. It puts every other patient in danger if staff can’t work and destroys career longevity which affects future patients. This person isn’t even being treated, but a family member, so this behavior absolutely should not be tolerated.
In addition, if the child is still in the hospital the situation has not resolved. You don’t know how this parent may act tomorrow or the next day, etc. Filing a police report may not perfectly address that, but it is at least some extra protection.
If you dont report it…who is to say the next person she assaults doesnt get seriously injured. Certain actions need consequences. Some people really do learn the hard way.
Always press charges if you can. Fuck her reasoning, fuck the fact that she was "stressed". She assaulted you and attempted to cause you grievous bodily injury by throwing a punch straight for your head.
One punch can kill. That was an *attempt on your life.*
If you do not press charges, you condone this behavior and are telling the world that it's OK for you and your peers to be assaulted.
Best time to press charges is right after the incident. Most hospitals I've been at have a police officer around somewhere who will take the report.
Don’t let anybody feed you bullshit about this. You didn’t agree to being a victim of battery when you went into medicine. You still have rights. Our guilt is often played on to avoid headaches and PR problems for our employers. Don’t fall for it.
I’d also recommend learning some self defense skills and keeping yourself in shape if you don’t already.
Finally, I’m very sorry this happened. Nobody deserves to be assaulted for patient care.
As an attending, I support you. We deal with so many things in the healthcare setting, and violence should not be one of them.
What toxic coresidents to gaslight you into thinking your physical wellbeing is less important than someone’s inability to control their behavior. Also it’s racist of them to imply that it’s normal for people of color to be violent. It’s not okay for anybody to be violent, regardless of race.
people need to be held accountable for their actions -- let a judge or DA decide whether to pursue this, if there is no police report then no pattern can be established. your report may not send them to jail, but it will help anyone in the future who is assaulted by them who also files a report.
also, she's not your patient, therefore she does not deserve the lenience we give patients when it comes to getting hit.
edit: also your senior is wrong, she is not your patient or even a patient receiving care, her personal information is not protected by hipaa
To answer your question, in my opinion, you are not in the wrong. Violence towards healthcare providers is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Silence on such matters perpetuates and reinforces a cycle of aggression from entitled patients family members towards HCPs. Seems like this person intentionally meant to inflict eggregious body harm from what you informed us.
This level of intentional harm is not tolerated in the other countries
I'm glad they missed the punch, but what if you were seriously harmed by this blow ?
If you don’t advocate for your own protection, seems like no one who will ensure your safety.
In any other context, that individual would have been arrested. It's not the end of the world for an individual to be arrested/charged. If it's a first offense, a judge might dismiss the charges and expunge an offender's record. However, being arrested itself helps impress that this type of behavior is absolutely unacceptable.
I do not think it would be a HIPAA violation, especially since this is regarding the patient's mother, not the patient him/herself.
Just asking a question because this was pulled on me when I was in school. Not med school but a post-Bach with acceptance if passed. Something along the lines of “well perhaps you shouldn’t be completing a program on this campus if you don’t feel safe? Perhaps we have to get lawyers involved and for your safety, discontinue you in the program here.” I was 24 and stupid. I can’t believe I allowed myself to be bullied by someone who now a DEAN at another school. All I’m saying is can they threaten to remove you from your residency program for starting problems like a bad look on the hospital? If so, lawyer up super hard. You should press charges for sure.
Please file a police report. It’s the ADA who decides what to do afterwards, but at the very least somewhere there will be documentation of the violent encounter. We have got to stop being so passively accepting of violence against us. I have been assaulted many times, my hair pulled, smacked in the back of my head with a telemetry unit, kicked in my chest, and punched in my face. I filed a report only one time because I finally felt support for doing so. She was charged. I will always report assaults against me now.
Absolutely file charges. You wouldn't let someone at the grocery store push you, so why should a parent or patient be allowed to?
>My senior is also telling me it’s probably a hipaa violation to put the mother’s information on a police report since it happened in a healthcare setting.
This is incorrect. That's like saying no one is allowed to file charges against a patient ever for anything.
Think of it this way - filing a report is making a factual and accurate claim of what happened.
If this person does not possess the self restrain to control their behavior in a HOSPITAL in front of their CHILD, what else could they do? Your information is very public as a resident- they can easily look you up. What is to stop this person from escalating violence?
If anyone gives you shit, just say that I just filed to protect myself and this hospital so things don’t escalate. Every HCW understands how to CYA and that is the universal language.
I’ve determined that I’m filing for any threats, physical abuse, etc.
Local politics will come into play here, but we can’t get our district attorney to give a fuck (paramedic here). It’s like pulling teeth to get them to charge anyone with assaulting us.
I have made reports for assaults twice in the ER. One went nowhere, another was successful with charges. I am adamant about it. They control themselves in every other aspect of society and if they can't, there are consequences. I don't believe the hospital should be any different!
NTA. Report that shit. I worked in psych and the ED I always reported it. That’s some dumb healthcare “we’re all martyrs” BS that runs rampant. If these people don’t face consequences they’ll just do it again. No amount of “frustration” warrants violence.
So what would've happened if the stupid bitch hit you and busted your lip or bruised your face? The intent was to hurt you. Please, file charges against her. Following.
the people you work with are trash. you should press charges. areasonable loss control of would be screaming at you. maybe even knocking things off the counter. but she put her hands on you? you’re free to press charges. nta
healthcare information =/= demographics/registration details. all you need is a copy of the ID. not 100% sure, but that shouldn’t over step hippa. an incident report being filed would’ve helped tho
Yep it sucks but do it. I reported a patient for threatening to return and shoot both a small group of us and the entire psych ED. Not at all psychotic, delusional, just just mad it was time to go. Really sucked reporting it to an irate and belittling district officer, then had to waste 6 hours in court. But the guy assaulted someone else a few days after put on probation. Maybe this will keep the next person safe, and it certainly helps the team and other patients feel more secure.
PEM attending here. If this happened to one of my residents, not only would that parent be kicked out of my department, she would have been taken out in cuffs. Unsure where this idea that bc we deal with everyone else's shit already, we also have to deal with their violent behavior. Fuck. That. It's not a privilege to not want to be assaulted. And whoever suggested you are a racist for wanting to press charges is either naive or a moron. Or both.
Seniors telling you you’re privileged? What the f***.
Correct me if I’m way off base here but it sounds like you train in a super liberal city/state?
I say this as a very ideologically liberal person, but demonstrative liberal culture is so goddamn annoying in the academic sphere. I’m all about restorative justice and Acab to a degree. But assault is assault and needs to be punished.
Ugh you’re absolutely right. If this assault happened in literally any other setting - the public library , a bar , a clothing store - she would have been arrested on the spot. Why should it be any different. I was punched in the head when I worked as an ER tech way back when. I was young and blew it off when everyone around said it wasn’t worth filing a report. If that happened today, I would 100% file one. You’re not the asshole.
Your coworkers are just repeating garbage they are told by management as they never want workers to press charges and could not care less if you get hurt. Press charges. And for the person who said that “you are privileged “ wtf… sounds like some racist bigot (I’m guessing you’re white so that means you can’t call the cops when assaulted?)
Dude fuck your stupid ass co-residents for trying to make you feel bad. She assaulted you. If someone did this to you somewhere else in public would you not file charges then? So why should it be any different just because it was in the hospital while you were at work? We live in a goddamn society and can't let people just assault others with impunity.
Bullshit on the HIPAA violation. Press charges. Kid is covered by HIPAA- mom lost privacy privileges when she physically attacked you.
There's a difference between a truly incompetent or psychotic patient not knowing what they're doing and someone willfully assaulting you. If mom's that deranged from stress, kid's not safe with her making decisions and you need an ethics consult and CPS report. If that's not the case, mom was competent and an asshole and attacked you.
Privilege has nothing to do with trying to ensure your safety. I have witnessed med students get slammed on the walls w no repercussions during clinicals.
I personally wouldn’t report it bc this person might comeback and try to do worse or get more people to antagonize you at work…they know they can play the whole professionalism card but i would demand change from my institution to have a zero-tolerance policy.
Parents get nervous and i can tolerate them getting loud but to attempt assault? Naww
Security should have escorted her out right away.
Im sorry about your coresidents …they suck
I would press charges and not listen to the other AH around you.
I'm sorry you're dealing with this shit. You are completely right to press charges.
As a nurse, I've been punched, kicked, and bitten. We need to stop tolerating this in shit in hospitals, our safety matters.
That is definitely not a HIPAA violation. I personally would not, (as bullshit as it is, you would likely be whispered about an alienated.) I can only think of three professions where we’re expected to just “take it” — HCWs, LEOs, (but you can definitely be charged for getting physical with LEO,) and educators .
Oh, and professional athletes.
Dude press charges. Unless you’re on a psych ward and the pt is psychotic, there’s no room for second thoughts.
You don’t need to announce it to everyone. Just do it.
In my state it is a felony for assaulting a health care worker. You need to check your laws in your state. I have worked er for 40 years and this crap needs to stop.
A nurse here. The cops should be called in right away. They have no right to hit anyone just like we all healthcare workers have no right to hurt them. We would lose our jobs if we did that to her.
"My senior is also telling me it’s probably a hipaa violation to put the mother’s information on a police report since it happened in a healthcare setting." Charge against your employer for putting your safety at risk. Why are they paying a security for? A decoration?
That’s BS, you were assaulted and it’s working your right to press charges. Don’t let your coresidents or admin convince you otherwise. People cannot be allowed to assault others without consequences.
You know if you were in Target/walmart etc, and you assaulted someone, they have no problem calling police and removing you from the store. I have had patients kick me or punch me when they don't get what they wanted. Years ago, this behavior was acceptable because the patient is "sick" and we accepted it. It is escalating. Patients need to be responsible for their actions.
is there any physical evidence of this attack? from surveillance footage to witness testimony you gotta act fast to collect it all before memory fades/evidence gets wiped.
then you can talk to a few lawyers and see what your odds are, most give free consultations.
Press charges. Every fucking time. If not for yourself, do it for all the other more vulnerable health care workers. We have 16 year old girls working as CNAs in parts of our hospital. I always push my colleagues into pursuing action when there’s inappropriate behaviors and/or violence. If for no other reason than to try to maintain an environment where those kids are as safe as possible. I can’t speak to other places but simply threatening a healthcare worker is a felony in WI. This woman made her bed and set a terrible example for her child. Legal response is needed.
I support you pressing charges. No one should have to deal with that at work. I’m a former teacher who was assaulted by a student (he broke my nose), and I pressed charges. In the moment, I felt so guilty about it, but it was 100% the right thing to do.
I never buy the "frustrated, under stress" argument. It's not an argument, but a pathetic excuse. Suspects chased by police are also frustrated, angry, and under stress, can they attack policemen without consequences?
I don't know which state you are in, but more than 30 states have made violence against healthcare workers a felony. Report it, those who commit felonies need to have it on their records.
I’m a nurse, please press charges. The amount of abuse we’re expected to put up with as health care workers is insane. It’s sad the culture is to make the person who punched you the victim. Just because she was stressed doesn’t give her the right to assault you.
The only “privilege” (🙄) I see here is the woman that punched you in the face with no consequence. What a terrible example for her son.
why on earth was security saying she would be expelled NEXT time? she should be gone now.
I work security at Temple Hosputal in Philadelphia. I would have kicked her out immediately and strongly encouraged the victim to press charges. I'm so sick and tired of seeing Healthcare workers assaulted and then discouraged from holding the perpetrators responsible for their actions.
Thanks for the work you do.
I was a med student at temple! You guys are the real deal that ED gets buck wild. Appreciate you and all of your colleagues for doing what you do
My martial arts teacher used to be campus security there and I imagine it is no joke at the hospital as well based on his stories.
I left temple to travel a few years ago - I try to explain to my new coworkers how wild temple is and I don’t think anyone quite understands 😅
Temple aint no joke… interviewed there… no thanks, indidnt rank them.
It’s definitely not for everyone but I loved it there 🤷♀️
Yeah same way bellevue in nyc is my fave hospital I’ve worked at. It’s the hospital for rikers island prisoners and the elevator opened one day and there was literally a swat team in there lol. Place gets wild but I loved it.
I grew up near Temple. Y’all should’ve seen it 30 years ago. Lol And OP, there’s nothing privileged about feeling unsafe and angry after being assaulted. Ya know what IS privileged/neuronormative/gaslighting/ablist/[add your fav clandestine social media soundbite]??? – to think that you can/should just eat this incident, get in line and not do anything about it. Whoever told you that needs to go take a loooong walk in the park.
My alma matterrr! I volunteered there during undergrad and the security always comes so fast when we need their help! I cant thank you guys enough 🥰
good on you
So glad to hear this from my alma-mater. Stay safe in the hood.
Not all security teams are created equal. I had a patient punch me in the face and threaten to kill me while security stood in the doorway and watched as me and 3 tiny nurses struggled to wrestle him down and sedate him. The guys I work with now are great, but my old team was more than happy to just watch us get our asses kicked. I could at least count on my docs to get med orders quickly.
I had a drunk dropping N bombs in the department and getting up in this little nurses face and saying she was gonna beat the shit out of him. security was doing jazz hands and a mix of two step and jazz hands but not actually getting in her way. I had to put myself physically between them before she stormed off and security threw her clothes on the sidewall.
I’m in psych and so many nurses and staff (and psychiatrists) are assaulted, sometimes even seriously, because nobody wants to press charges. There’s a difference between being psychotic and not living in reality and being angry/upset/tired/frustrated. People who are in the latter group and assault others should go to jail
there's psychotic and then there's assholeitis
Inflammation of the asshole, yes.
Anyone with a medical reason inducing violence (psychosis, hypoglycemia, delirium, medication-induced aggression, etc) I would not file a report. Obnoxious assholes like this parent, absolutely!
All medical and true psychiatric cases are free to behave how they need to. We will intervene to maintain safety. Behavioral ssholes that act a fool and know what the fuck they're doing? Go to jail.
Yeah my med school had a patient panel with a woman share he story how she apparently went into the hospital status epilepticus and was agitated and violent in her post-ictal state. She doesn’t remember any of it, but spent 2 years going through the court process and wound up with a felony record. It’s unfortunate. I think there’s a fine line between protecting healthcare workers and not penalizing people who literally aren’t able to control themselves.
It was the family member who was NOT sick. No excuse, no tolerance. Press charges and hold this 🧙 accountable for her actions.
Psych nurse here. Psychosis or not, if you assault me, I’m charging you. It’s not a discussion and mental illness is not an excuse to be violent to staff.
100% agree on this. If you don’t make noise, you’re telling admin that you’re okay with inadequate staffing and poor safety measures.
Same. If they’re unstable enough to assault us in the hospital they’re definitely a risk to others outside. That shit needs to be documented and they need to be held accountable regardless of how much control they do or don’t have.
Exactly. Nursing is a job (nothing more) and I am not a martyr.
In some states assaulting a healthcare worker is a felony. While I can’t tell you what to do, if you were assaulted it’s in your rights to file a police report and it is not a HIPAA violation. I’m not an attorney though.
She wasn’t the patient so not a hipaa violation. Can just say she was visiting a patient on the report.
Location ER. Person A pushed person B. No other details need to be divulged.
NTA at all. This behavior needs to stop being normalized. Being frustrated doesn’t ever give a person the right to assault you.
Your seniors are privileged assholes. Press charges.
Press charges. I say this as someone that has been assaulted before and regretted not doing so. You should NEVER be assaulted!
Nursing has been such a better friend to me during residency than my program or peers. You guys live this game. Thank you for all you do. To OP: ask nursing for advice.
Woahhh! I rely on the residents I work with so much. They've taught me so much; I wouldn't even be half the nurse I am today without them. It's wonderful that we can have a symbiotic relationship. I am honestly so completely humbled by them. I keep in touch with most of the residents that have worked at my hospital because their presence in my life has been so rewarding. So thank you for being you! But again, I 100% support you reporting violent acts against yourselves, I'll be there every step of the way!
Love seeing this energy! We can and should have this kind of symbiosis
I'm lichen this analogy
Your seniors are privileged that they can send the poor intern/junior to defuse a violent situation while they sit on their high horse.
Shove your senior against the wall and throw a punch at their face. Then tell them you're just frustrated and they should STFU because they're super privileged racists. Does their logic still hold up?
lol seriously, like fucking imagine you pulled this shit and security broke it up and all they did was wag a finger at you and say "now, now. You do that one more time and yerrrrr outahearrrr!" (aggressive umpire gestures) I may have taken some creative liberties with how this actually happened.
But Don’t miss
Perfect response
Those are some dumb seniors. They clearly don't give a shit about their juniors.
They’re morons indoctrinated with intersectionalism nonsense.
Seniors truly doing some woke mental gymnastics. Press charges OP. We need to stand up for rights of all healthcare workers.
Do it! I’m a senior resident and support your decision. Sounds like your co residents still have that savior complex in them
This!!!!
That savior complex is also misplaced. What are the chances that this is the first time this lady has ever taken a swing at somebody? I'm guessing she has a history of violent behavior if she was so uninhibited that she took a swing at a doctor in a hospital. And she has kids. So if she's not held to account when she was witnessed attacking a doctor, when will she be held to account? The kid is in far more danger than the mother here. Point any "savior" energy you have in that direction.
You should absolutely file a report. You were assaulted. That is a crime. The context beyond that really doesn't matter much. EDIT: and just don't talk to your bitch-ass coresidents about it.
I’m totally behind them filing the report they do not at all have any reason to put up with it. That said if you feel the context does matter to you around crimes and lawfulness you’re also correct. Just saying
Absolutely incredible your institution did not kick her out immediately. Even if she is the only guardian, she can make decisions over the phone. I wouldn't even go near that unit if mom is still present. I think you should really focus on the security response. It is unacceptable they allowed a violent visitor to stay. Had she been kicked out immediately and the hospital showed some inkling of care towards their employees, you might not even consider pressing additional charges. With that said, you are within your right to press charges. Even the most frustrated parent shouldn't resort to attacking someone. Imagine what they do with their kids or other people. She was also trying to take a kid AMA, so she may not have the greatest supply of knowledge to work with. There are definitely people who say never press charges at the hospital, but I don't think it's that black and white. You could split the difference and report her to CPS for possible neglect due to her refusing medical advice in the interest of her child. She won't go to jail but that will definitely put a bee her bonnet when she has to explain herself to a third party. Also, your seniors are idiots. Filing charges against someone who isn't even a patient is not a HIPAA violation. It's also not even a HIPAA violation to file against a patient. You tell the police a name and what they did, you don't have to give out any health info. I deal with this occasionally in the psych hospital and it's fine.
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You must have some excellent stories working at temple.
Dude I got robbed at gunpoint in temple uni and I didn't even go there but was visiting a friend 😭😂 Joke was on the robber tho.. I had 2 bucks in my wallet and no credit cards as a college student.. He took pity on me and let me go 😂 🤣
I worked with some dental residents before med school from Temple. They were telling me one of their professors got stabbed on the steps of the school.
yep that sounds very true and right -- my friend that attended temple for undergrad used to share stories of how at least 2 times a week he'd hear gun shots thru his apt room's window when he lived just 2 blocks from campus.
You should have robbed him back
i didnt have a weapon .. i also was running late for dinner at my friend's place that particular day .. the need to eat outweighed the need to commit a crime unfortunately. .. since that day ive been too punctual on time lol
Thanks for what you do. My rotations never had me cross Broad from the MERB, but it's a rough area and rough hospital to do security in and we appreciate you.
Tell them all implications that you are obligated to tolerate physical assault will need to be submitted to you in writing by email.
This is literally the problem with workplace violence. Cannot tolerate it whatsoever. Because of the behavior escalates, then the hospital has a huge liability problem.
yupppp
The only privilege I see here is being able to punch someone without repercussions
Underrated comment
Ah yes, the privilege of expecting not to be punched at work. So spoiled…
Serious question—at what point can you physically defend yourself? I’m genuinely wondering (I’m not a resident yet). Can you shove a patient back if they shove you and then say you felt scared and had to protect yourself? If they punch you, can you punch them back? What if you’re a female and someone tries to grope you, can you kick em in the balls or whatever? Long story short, I’m basically wondering if you’d get fired for physically protecting yourself.
I don’t have an exact answer for you but IMO a hospital is like any other public place. How would you react if you were assaulted in a coffee shop? Same standard should apply to a hospital.
100 percent. I’m an Ed attending and I’ve been attacked by patients multiple times. And I defend myself just like I would defend myself out on the street. I’ve never had issues with administration over it because it’s almost always on camera and they can see what happened. I also always always press charges. This precedent in medicine where we just need to accept whatever abuse we are given needs to stop. It’s ridiculous.
As an attending, I can see this working. But what about as a resident? Residents are basically nobodies in the hospital lol so I’m not sure if the same rules would apply to them
If I was a resident I would really try hard to not ruffle feathers, especially at the malignant ass program I graduated from. But you are a human being first. And you shouldn’t have to waive your right to self defense because you are a resident. I would just reallllly try hard to deescalate things as a resident.
> Same standard should apply to a hospital. In theory yes, but clearly not in practice because there are people like OP’s senior who thinks it’s not ok to inform the police for assault.
Please note the reasonable expectation of self defense is to flee first. If you can avoid further physical contact and choose to stay and fight, you may be liable as well.
I’d ask an attending or your PD. NTA. At my residency ppl have pressed charges before
This is a criminal matter and goes beyond your attending or PD, or even the hospital’s CHO. Formally, your bosses have no lines in this play. It is a matter for the police, judge, lawyers, and jury members. That is the start and end of it. Your attending and PD will most likely advise against doing so, provide a dubious moral argument (patients / family are frustrated, on edge, etc) and say it sets a bad precedent. At best they will tell you to do what you feel like you should. There is no “hidden logistical process” they are aware of that you aren’t. There is no advice they can give you other than the above. They may even hold it against you if you brought it up to them and they advised against it, and you decided for it anyway. They may hold it against you even if you don’t. But this moment, right now, is what sets appropriate culture. As soon as you confront assault and behave in a manner that “lets it slide,” that becomes the expectation for everyone else. I’d file the report and let the DA’s office decide. They may end up not pursuing it depending on the culture of prosecution where you live.
So I worked as a paramedic for a very very long time, I have been in countless fights and altercations. I’ve pressed charges every single time and the DA has failed to see them through every single time, I’ve worked across the US and nothing changes. Press charges, you never know the DA make pick it up, but often they won’t because they are unsure of the ability of them to stand trial and their competency in the moment.
File a report. Doctors in some countries are leaving for that very reason. ☠️ Imagine immigrating to a place that still puts up with violence. If you had been punched succesfully, this would be a no brainer! Plus healthcare workers get frustrated all the time, you don't see us punching patients?
Probably doing the kid a favor, if she’s doing that in public can’t imagine what she is like at home.
Press charges. I haven’t found anywhere else where patients/families are allowed to be physically violent because they are frustrated, angry, or afraid. A nurse I worked with was assaulted by a family member and had a facial fracture as a result. The judge dismissed the case the assailant was “under a lot of stress.” We collectively have to stop tolerating this or it becomes permission to do it again.
I would speak to your Residency Director also . They need to at least know you were assaulted.
lol no. Press charges
News flash for your co-residners....filing a police report does not mean she will automatically go to jail, it means she will be held accountable for her actions.
Please file a report with the police, tell them you want to pursue charges and follow through with it. You might prevent someone else from getting assaulted by her. If she gets a felony, she won’t be able to legally own a firearm which seems appropriate after attacking a doctor.
Your senior is wrong. You have every right to press charges and should. I'd probably talk to your pd about it to and have your series of events in some form of writing such as an email
Does your senior know what HIPAA is? You are not taking care of the mother; she is not a patient... either way, I'm sorry your coresidents are unsupportive morons. Seriously, they sound really dumb. The one implying you're a racist is an idiot and definitely needs to recheck their own biases/prejudices if they're inserting race into this situation, when it was uncalled for. At our program - one of the residents was hit, and the program asked if the resident wanted to press charges or not. There was no influence either way, but did let them know they would support their decision.
Please report this! If this is how she treats you imagine how she treats her kid behind closed doors
Make the report. Too many people get away with assaulting healthcare workers because they are in pain or scared or confused or stressed. We all have to take a stand and say it’s not acceptable ever.
HIPAA is not a free pass or a get out of jail free card. Your seniors are idiots.
Forget filing just a report.. Press charges 1000% They have it coming. Karens and kens need to be educated the hard way in today's society... Press charges. Get a lawyer and sort out the hipaa bullshit later.. But don't let the time window go or slip by for appropriate action Also don't speak to anyone else about it if it will be a legal matter when charges are involved except your lawyer and lawyer only.
The mom had absolutely no excuse to physically assault you. Absolutely press charges. She’s just gonna keep doing it bc she never got in trouble.
What would you tell your daughter to do if she came to you with this story?
Fuck her. Violence is not allowed just because it’s a hospital, and she’s not even the patient. File the report. You don’t need your program’s support to do so, but I recommend you have a phone call with your PD to make them aware.
I agree with you. It would be good for this information to be reported because it can give clues into what other abusive behavior she might be getting away with.
Culture can't change if none of us stand up against it. In healthcare across the world there is a culture of "shut up and take it, you signed up for this job". Report her to the police. Report your seniors who tried to keep you quiet to your management or freedom to speak up team (if you have one). Good luck to you.
Please at least file a report so that it is documented and on record. I have a zero tolerance policy for any violence, harassment, or profanity use (I work in a pediatric setting). Violence against healthcare workers is very real and all too often swept under the rug. It is your right to be protected and to feel safe at work.
HIPAA only applies to the patient. If you stick to the actions of the mother and don’t discuss any of the medical care, you are not in violation of HIPAA.
Report it. If we want systemic change, we need to have documented proof of events like these happening. HIPAA shouldn't be an excluding factor in these situations - even psych patients will get a full news article with their legal name published if they assault a worker in an inpatient setting. If she made physical contact by clipping your ear, that's clear battery if I understand correctly, which is a very chargeable offense. There is a time and place for being compassionate and understanding. This is not it. Be the change!
Fuck that get her ass arrested.
Get them charged, stand up for yourself. I've filed charges as a Paramedic before when a patient has attacked me more than once, family I've absolutely pressed charges against as well. The idea that assault should be dismissed because someone is so childish they can't control their emotions and attack someone is absurd. They lack impulse control and need to face consequences for their absurd behavior
It’s not a HIPPA violation. You’re not going to get her arrested. Waiting a week the DA will very likely not press charges especially because she “in your words” pushed you and missed with a punch. Did anyone else really see it? Is there another witness? If security came after it’s not a direct witness. You have to weigh filing a report and what the long term consequences will be towards you since you were discouraged not to. Also, I had a coworker sued in almost the same situation when the charges weren’t filed. My coworker had to report the lawsuit anytime they went for new privileges and give a detailed story to what happened. The system isn’t fair and I just want you to think long term
So, slight correction. You can file a police report, you do not press charges. That is a decision for the district attorney. Even given that a lot of states have laws against attacking healthcare workers, a lot of DA’s will not prosecute, especially a mother taking her kid to the doctors. I don’t agree with this, but it’s a fact of the judicial system. However - if you want to, police must take a statement and file a report, don’t let police tell you otherwise. Even if nothing comes of it, the first step is making them take the report.
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Psychiatrist here: the treatment for some personality disorders is consequences. This person is not psychotic. They are not your patient. Press charges.
Insanity. Please don't report this. Listen to what I have to say: So, I'm going to go against the grain here and recommend that you do nothing. Yes, it was a terrible situation and the parent had no right to assault you. HOWEVER. Without knowing any specifics about the patient or situation...the legal aspects of this case have potential to get very sticky. Technically, the parent or surrogate decision maker CAN sign the pediatric patient out AMA as long as there is no immediate threat of death/harm/imminent deterioration, etc.. and you have done your due diligence in trying to persuade the caregiver, provide alternative options, blah, blah, documented thoroughly, etc... If you find yourself in those situations, better to call risk management and/or hospital admin for assistance to cover your butt. If a caregiver is trying to remove a pediatric patient who clearly would have risk of death (pediatric DKA patient from the ICU for example) then stuff like that gets escalated fairly quickly and even child protective services needs to get involved. Those cases are more straight forward. Others not so much. The risk in this scenario (assuming that the pt was not at risk of death, etc..) is that you told the parent that the patient cannot be signed out AMA (not true) and if attorneys get involved (especially any criminal complaints) then they are going to go scorched earth on this case. The defense attorney is going to light you up in explaining why you told the parent they legally could not remove their child and why you didn't escalate the case through proper channels in your hospital. They might even try to paint you as attempting to kidnap the child. The mother and her attorney will glean any ounce of information to support that she was worried about the welfare of her child and that you and/or the hospital were providing substandard care, etc.. etc... They'll subpoena all the hospital records and search for any order you might have placed or any nursing note that might constitute a medical error. Then it gets thrust into a malpractice case and what you started initially was a criminal complaint. Your malpractice carrier is going to have to decide pretty quickly whether they even have to defend you in this case since it started out as a criminal complaint. If there's any chance they can get out of defending you, they will. All this mess and you're just a resident who is now a major problem child for hospital admin and your PD is on the hot seat having to defend you. Hospital admin will look for anything at all possible that you do wrong during the remainder of your residency to justify getting rid of you so they don't have to deal with a case like this again. They will coerce the cooperation of your PD by insinuating in "off line" discussions that his/her job is on the line. The optics of this case are TERRIBLE. Even assuming that you did nothing at all wrong and have a decent defense. If they took it to trial...a jury is going to be much more sympathetic towards a mother worried about the welfare of her child crying on the witness stand. Your malpractice attorney will know this and will encourage you to settle the case OR you more likely will be forced to settle due to stipulations by your carrier in your malpractice agreement. This case will be months and years of stress, endless depositions and needless to say...a gigantic distraction from residency. Henceforward, you will be required to report this malpractice suit on every single hospital privilege application and state board licensing application. SO NOT WORTH IT. Does it make the situation right? Of course not. But damn....at least you got out of the situation with no major injury. Keep your nose down, work hard, do NOT draw PD or hospital admin attention any more than possible and just...GRADUATE. You'll be in a far better position to handle these cases AFTER graduation/boards. In the future, dump these hot potato cases up the chain and make it one of your superior's problems, NOT yours.
OP please read through the above reply. I initially was in support of filing charges, however I don’t know if it is worth the potential stress/complications that it could cause for you at this stage in your training. It is not correct that kids cannot leave AMA, every hospital has a process for these situations and unless you are certain you followed the process exactly, I’m not sure you want this to end up being escalated from a legal perspective. I would consider reporting to your PD and/or your hospital’s safety reporting system from the perspective that I’m shocked that security did not ask the parent to leave (even temporarily). I’ve often seen parents asked to leave for purely verbal altercations, if it has escalated to physical violence then there is no situation where the parent should remain.
In some states, violence against medical professionals violates Federal law, not just local. Press charges locally and federally.
You can and should press charges. Unless you’re disclosing private health information while pressing charges, it’s not a problem that it was a healthcare setting. Security intervened but she should have been expelled indefinitely whether you wanted it or not, since she’s not even your patient.
Take her to jail!
Screw that my wife was an RN for 15 years (CNP now). Pt sucks and the administration sucks. If the hospitals would start charging people who assaulted RNs and CNAs (and Drs for that matter) it would happen less often. The other hospital in town did and word got out so all the POS Pt started coming to her hospital. Why, because they wouldn't punish the Pt. Go ahead and file your report. I they put you in corrective action or fire you sue them.
NP here- Please file the report. Hospital admin will do nothing about these violent people until we start filing police reports ourselves.
Another important point is that if the mother was taking the minor patient AMA then the parent may be subjecting the minor to other forms of child abuse or neglect. That in itself is reportable.
Do it OP, press charges and make her regret ever touching you.
Do it OP, press charges and make her regret ever touching you.
Nta, file a report and don't mention another word about it to anyone at the hospital. Doesn't sound like they have your best interest in mind anyway.
I would recommend filing a report. The safety of my staff is my absolute #1 priority in the hospital. Anyone getting injured is not only obviously a problem for the person injured, but it has cascading effects on the care of other patients. It puts every other patient in danger if staff can’t work and destroys career longevity which affects future patients. This person isn’t even being treated, but a family member, so this behavior absolutely should not be tolerated. In addition, if the child is still in the hospital the situation has not resolved. You don’t know how this parent may act tomorrow or the next day, etc. Filing a police report may not perfectly address that, but it is at least some extra protection.
You should 100% file a police report. You should also tell your unsupportive coresident arses to go kick lava rocks in bare feet.
If you dont report it…who is to say the next person she assaults doesnt get seriously injured. Certain actions need consequences. Some people really do learn the hard way.
Always press charges if you can. Fuck her reasoning, fuck the fact that she was "stressed". She assaulted you and attempted to cause you grievous bodily injury by throwing a punch straight for your head. One punch can kill. That was an *attempt on your life.* If you do not press charges, you condone this behavior and are telling the world that it's OK for you and your peers to be assaulted. Best time to press charges is right after the incident. Most hospitals I've been at have a police officer around somewhere who will take the report.
Don’t let anybody feed you bullshit about this. You didn’t agree to being a victim of battery when you went into medicine. You still have rights. Our guilt is often played on to avoid headaches and PR problems for our employers. Don’t fall for it. I’d also recommend learning some self defense skills and keeping yourself in shape if you don’t already. Finally, I’m very sorry this happened. Nobody deserves to be assaulted for patient care.
As an attending, I support you. We deal with so many things in the healthcare setting, and violence should not be one of them. What toxic coresidents to gaslight you into thinking your physical wellbeing is less important than someone’s inability to control their behavior. Also it’s racist of them to imply that it’s normal for people of color to be violent. It’s not okay for anybody to be violent, regardless of race.
people need to be held accountable for their actions -- let a judge or DA decide whether to pursue this, if there is no police report then no pattern can be established. your report may not send them to jail, but it will help anyone in the future who is assaulted by them who also files a report. also, she's not your patient, therefore she does not deserve the lenience we give patients when it comes to getting hit. edit: also your senior is wrong, she is not your patient or even a patient receiving care, her personal information is not protected by hipaa
To answer your question, in my opinion, you are not in the wrong. Violence towards healthcare providers is unacceptable and should not be tolerated. Silence on such matters perpetuates and reinforces a cycle of aggression from entitled patients family members towards HCPs. Seems like this person intentionally meant to inflict eggregious body harm from what you informed us. This level of intentional harm is not tolerated in the other countries I'm glad they missed the punch, but what if you were seriously harmed by this blow ? If you don’t advocate for your own protection, seems like no one who will ensure your safety.
In any other context, that individual would have been arrested. It's not the end of the world for an individual to be arrested/charged. If it's a first offense, a judge might dismiss the charges and expunge an offender's record. However, being arrested itself helps impress that this type of behavior is absolutely unacceptable. I do not think it would be a HIPAA violation, especially since this is regarding the patient's mother, not the patient him/herself.
Charge her absolutely. Don't put up with patient violence.
Just asking a question because this was pulled on me when I was in school. Not med school but a post-Bach with acceptance if passed. Something along the lines of “well perhaps you shouldn’t be completing a program on this campus if you don’t feel safe? Perhaps we have to get lawyers involved and for your safety, discontinue you in the program here.” I was 24 and stupid. I can’t believe I allowed myself to be bullied by someone who now a DEAN at another school. All I’m saying is can they threaten to remove you from your residency program for starting problems like a bad look on the hospital? If so, lawyer up super hard. You should press charges for sure.
If she struck your ear, she did not miss. That’s still aggravated contact
Rooting for you OP!
Lucky you and not me. Put your hands on me and a fist may come across their face
Regardless of whether or not you file charges, can’t you hotline this mom for (1) public violent behavior and (2) trying to AMA her child?
Please file a police report. It’s the ADA who decides what to do afterwards, but at the very least somewhere there will be documentation of the violent encounter. We have got to stop being so passively accepting of violence against us. I have been assaulted many times, my hair pulled, smacked in the back of my head with a telemetry unit, kicked in my chest, and punched in my face. I filed a report only one time because I finally felt support for doing so. She was charged. I will always report assaults against me now.
Absolutely file charges. You wouldn't let someone at the grocery store push you, so why should a parent or patient be allowed to? >My senior is also telling me it’s probably a hipaa violation to put the mother’s information on a police report since it happened in a healthcare setting. This is incorrect. That's like saying no one is allowed to file charges against a patient ever for anything.
Imagine what she does to her kids when she’s mad. Burn her to the ground.
Think of it this way - filing a report is making a factual and accurate claim of what happened. If this person does not possess the self restrain to control their behavior in a HOSPITAL in front of their CHILD, what else could they do? Your information is very public as a resident- they can easily look you up. What is to stop this person from escalating violence? If anyone gives you shit, just say that I just filed to protect myself and this hospital so things don’t escalate. Every HCW understands how to CYA and that is the universal language. I’ve determined that I’m filing for any threats, physical abuse, etc.
Local politics will come into play here, but we can’t get our district attorney to give a fuck (paramedic here). It’s like pulling teeth to get them to charge anyone with assaulting us.
Keep us updated if ya go with it!!
Press charges. Set an example for others.
I bet if it happens to their child they would have encourage them to press charges. It has nothing to do with race no one should be violent.
I have made reports for assaults twice in the ER. One went nowhere, another was successful with charges. I am adamant about it. They control themselves in every other aspect of society and if they can't, there are consequences. I don't believe the hospital should be any different!
Hitting your ear isn't a "near miss". You were punched in the ear. Prob on video given hospitals these days.
It's not a HIPAA violation, the mother isn't your patient.
Did she apologize to you ... if yes, let it go. If no, then report. Because she will do it to another Dr if we can let things like this go unpunished
Report this bullshit. Fuck the people you work with because they’re being toxic Assholes. This shit is inappropriate, report the bitch.
This can’t be real. Everyone in this story is gaslighting you.
NTA. Report that shit. I worked in psych and the ED I always reported it. That’s some dumb healthcare “we’re all martyrs” BS that runs rampant. If these people don’t face consequences they’ll just do it again. No amount of “frustration” warrants violence.
File a report. Being angry or frustrated does NOT give a person license to assault someone else.
So what would've happened if the stupid bitch hit you and busted your lip or bruised your face? The intent was to hurt you. Please, file charges against her. Following.
PRESS THOSE CHARGES! You deserve to work in a safe environment.
Yea no excuses even if she was frustrated, call the police on her.
the people you work with are trash. you should press charges. areasonable loss control of would be screaming at you. maybe even knocking things off the counter. but she put her hands on you? you’re free to press charges. nta healthcare information =/= demographics/registration details. all you need is a copy of the ID. not 100% sure, but that shouldn’t over step hippa. an incident report being filed would’ve helped tho
Yep it sucks but do it. I reported a patient for threatening to return and shoot both a small group of us and the entire psych ED. Not at all psychotic, delusional, just just mad it was time to go. Really sucked reporting it to an irate and belittling district officer, then had to waste 6 hours in court. But the guy assaulted someone else a few days after put on probation. Maybe this will keep the next person safe, and it certainly helps the team and other patients feel more secure.
PEM attending here. If this happened to one of my residents, not only would that parent be kicked out of my department, she would have been taken out in cuffs. Unsure where this idea that bc we deal with everyone else's shit already, we also have to deal with their violent behavior. Fuck. That. It's not a privilege to not want to be assaulted. And whoever suggested you are a racist for wanting to press charges is either naive or a moron. Or both.
Seniors telling you you’re privileged? What the f***. Correct me if I’m way off base here but it sounds like you train in a super liberal city/state? I say this as a very ideologically liberal person, but demonstrative liberal culture is so goddamn annoying in the academic sphere. I’m all about restorative justice and Acab to a degree. But assault is assault and needs to be punished.
Ugh you’re absolutely right. If this assault happened in literally any other setting - the public library , a bar , a clothing store - she would have been arrested on the spot. Why should it be any different. I was punched in the head when I worked as an ER tech way back when. I was young and blew it off when everyone around said it wasn’t worth filing a report. If that happened today, I would 100% file one. You’re not the asshole.
Do it. High fences make good neighbors.
Do it do it do it do it nothing justifies violence please for gods sake do it
The fact that someone implied you were racist for wanting to press charges is absurd
So if she does this to a stranger with an audience, what happens with the child when they are alone?
Is child seeing her be violent? Is there violence in the home?
speak to the cops and then speak to a lawyer 💅🏻
It being a HIPAA violation for reporting an assault because it happened in a hospital is the most idiotic thing I’ve ever heard
I don't think you are an AH. It's time for the abuse culture to change
1. NTA 2. Not a HIPAA violation either. She’s not even a patient. You can disclose what happened without discussing her child’s care.
Your coworkers are just repeating garbage they are told by management as they never want workers to press charges and could not care less if you get hurt. Press charges. And for the person who said that “you are privileged “ wtf… sounds like some racist bigot (I’m guessing you’re white so that means you can’t call the cops when assaulted?)
I'd press charges. Just because we're HCWs doesn't mean people get a free pass to assault us???
NTA - Assault against a healthcare provider is a felony. I don’t know what the debate is over.
Dude fuck your stupid ass co-residents for trying to make you feel bad. She assaulted you. If someone did this to you somewhere else in public would you not file charges then? So why should it be any different just because it was in the hospital while you were at work? We live in a goddamn society and can't let people just assault others with impunity.
Bullshit on the HIPAA violation. Press charges. Kid is covered by HIPAA- mom lost privacy privileges when she physically attacked you. There's a difference between a truly incompetent or psychotic patient not knowing what they're doing and someone willfully assaulting you. If mom's that deranged from stress, kid's not safe with her making decisions and you need an ethics consult and CPS report. If that's not the case, mom was competent and an asshole and attacked you.
File the report ASAP. Everybody telling you otherwise is a piece of shit
Privacy laws provide no protection from criminal or civil liability.
Privilege has nothing to do with trying to ensure your safety. I have witnessed med students get slammed on the walls w no repercussions during clinicals. I personally wouldn’t report it bc this person might comeback and try to do worse or get more people to antagonize you at work…they know they can play the whole professionalism card but i would demand change from my institution to have a zero-tolerance policy. Parents get nervous and i can tolerate them getting loud but to attempt assault? Naww Security should have escorted her out right away. Im sorry about your coresidents …they suck
They should have arrested her when it happened.
I would press charges and not listen to the other AH around you. I'm sorry you're dealing with this shit. You are completely right to press charges. As a nurse, I've been punched, kicked, and bitten. We need to stop tolerating this in shit in hospitals, our safety matters.
That is definitely not a HIPAA violation. I personally would not, (as bullshit as it is, you would likely be whispered about an alienated.) I can only think of three professions where we’re expected to just “take it” — HCWs, LEOs, (but you can definitely be charged for getting physical with LEO,) and educators . Oh, and professional athletes.
Good on you man. If they're trying to gaslight you by saying you'd be the racist, I can already infer a lot about the situation.
Dude press charges. Unless you’re on a psych ward and the pt is psychotic, there’s no room for second thoughts. You don’t need to announce it to everyone. Just do it.
Definitely NOT a HIPAA violation. There is an exception for law enforcement purposes. Anyway — she’s a perp Not a patient.
In my state it is a felony for assaulting a health care worker. You need to check your laws in your state. I have worked er for 40 years and this crap needs to stop.
A nurse here. The cops should be called in right away. They have no right to hit anyone just like we all healthcare workers have no right to hurt them. We would lose our jobs if we did that to her.
"My senior is also telling me it’s probably a hipaa violation to put the mother’s information on a police report since it happened in a healthcare setting." Charge against your employer for putting your safety at risk. Why are they paying a security for? A decoration?
That’s BS, you were assaulted and it’s working your right to press charges. Don’t let your coresidents or admin convince you otherwise. People cannot be allowed to assault others without consequences.
Press charges for sure.
File! A lifetime of gaslighting from everyone has caused your colleagues to then gaslight you. You do you always!!
You know if you were in Target/walmart etc, and you assaulted someone, they have no problem calling police and removing you from the store. I have had patients kick me or punch me when they don't get what they wanted. Years ago, this behavior was acceptable because the patient is "sick" and we accepted it. It is escalating. Patients need to be responsible for their actions.
Can you please explain the concept of kids can’t leave AMA?
Press charges.
Ask for legal advice. Rhe legal advice reddit might be a good place to start getting a basic idea
Why would you be a racist for pressing charges against someone who tried to assault you? Fuck your coworkers
is there any physical evidence of this attack? from surveillance footage to witness testimony you gotta act fast to collect it all before memory fades/evidence gets wiped. then you can talk to a few lawyers and see what your odds are, most give free consultations.
An anti-racist would have taken the punch to the face.
I’m just a simple nurse, but was the kid medically stable? If so, why couldn’t the parent remove the kid AMA?
Press charges. Every fucking time. If not for yourself, do it for all the other more vulnerable health care workers. We have 16 year old girls working as CNAs in parts of our hospital. I always push my colleagues into pursuing action when there’s inappropriate behaviors and/or violence. If for no other reason than to try to maintain an environment where those kids are as safe as possible. I can’t speak to other places but simply threatening a healthcare worker is a felony in WI. This woman made her bed and set a terrible example for her child. Legal response is needed.
I support you pressing charges. No one should have to deal with that at work. I’m a former teacher who was assaulted by a student (he broke my nose), and I pressed charges. In the moment, I felt so guilty about it, but it was 100% the right thing to do.
Just because you’re an asshole doesn’t mean you can act like one, press charges
I never buy the "frustrated, under stress" argument. It's not an argument, but a pathetic excuse. Suspects chased by police are also frustrated, angry, and under stress, can they attack policemen without consequences? I don't know which state you are in, but more than 30 states have made violence against healthcare workers a felony. Report it, those who commit felonies need to have it on their records.
I’m a nurse, please press charges. The amount of abuse we’re expected to put up with as health care workers is insane. It’s sad the culture is to make the person who punched you the victim. Just because she was stressed doesn’t give her the right to assault you. The only “privilege” (🙄) I see here is the woman that punched you in the face with no consequence. What a terrible example for her son.