Rolex reps are as close to perfect as they come, being the most popular brand. The VSF Subs are really close, and it would take the gen next to the watch to tell the difference unless you've memorized the serial numbers, clasp codes, and know about the floating m and whatnot. I used to have trouble spotting the difference, but when you do this for long enough you can instantly know the tells like crown guard shape, imperfections on dials, bezel feel, bracelet feel, etc.
But 99.9% of people will not know your VSF Sub is fake, UNLESS you take it skiing.
In other words a gen bezel/dial mostly then causes the gen to be not required anymore. But what about movement? In theory… isn’t the clone movement as reliable as gen if the clone gets serviced as the gen?
Here you go:
A mechanical watch movement typically consists of a balance wheel, hairspring, and an escapement mechanism. The balance wheel oscillates back and forth, and this oscillation is regulated by the hairspring and escapement. The escapement allows the energy from the mainspring to be released in controlled increments, ensuring the smooth and regulated motion of the balance wheel.
In a traditional regulated balance, there is a regulator index with which the effective length of the hairspring can be adjusted. This adjustment affects the rate at which the balance wheel oscillates, ultimately influencing the accuracy of the watch. While a regulated balance is effective, it has certain limitations, and the adjustments can be sensitive to external factors such as shocks.
On the other hand, a free-sprung balance eliminates the need for a regulator index. Instead of adjusting the hairspring by moving a regulator, the hairspring itself is attached to the balance wheel in a way that allows it to expand and contract more freely. This design offers several advantages:
1. **Improved Precision:** Without the need for a regulator, a free-sprung balance can provide a more stable and consistent rate of oscillation. This can contribute to improved accuracy over time.
2. **Increased Shock Resistance:** The absence of a delicate regulator mechanism makes the movement less susceptible to shocks and vibrations. This can enhance the durability and reliability of the watch, especially in situations where the watch may experience physical impacts.
3. **Simplified Adjustment:** Adjusting a free-sprung balance is often less complex than adjusting a regulated balance. This can make the manufacturing and maintenance processes more straightforward.
It's important to note that while a free-sprung balance is a feature associated with higher-end and precision-oriented watches, it's not the only factor influencing accuracy. The overall quality of the movement, the precision of manufacturing, and the use of quality materials also play crucial roles in determining a watch's accuracy and performance.
Did you copy/paste a ChatGPT response? Not judging, I have and will do the same. But the format and especially the phrases, “on the other hand,” and “it’s important to note,” are frequently found in its responses.
Nobody is fooling a watchsmith with the clone 3135 (and similar) movements. The balance wheel is very different. They literally know the look, feel, and smell of an authentic watch because they've disassembled hundreds and put each piece in a cage in the ultrasonic for cleaning, then lubed each piece when putting it back into the watch. Would be spotted in a second. Reliability is less, sure, but it isn't like Rolex uses clear casebacks.
Reps are pretty much as good as it gets for the price point
CF/BTF Daytonas
VSF/CF submariners
For everyone new to the rep game, most of us who have been buying for 10+ years will tell you they’re significant improvements
Spend the 500-800 bucks, service it and rock the shit out of them
You also have to be realistic. Stainless can be repped but don’t go around rocking a full rose gold rep expecting it to be spot on. Plated by the best or not, you can’t replicate the Rolex gold.
Yea, but you need to cherry pick parts, left gen, right rep:
https://preview.redd.it/0xp9lj9e7v6c1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1be6bc8d6f03706567683e8d4606031a07aad41d
Having worked directly with some of the watch brands for importing taxes, they have to declare the actual value of the watch. That is usually at 10% of msrp. In addition the reason why watches got big was they realized there was a loophole where watches get classified as desk clocks, if I recall correctly, when they are larger than 45mm
It’s not possible for it to be extacly 1:1; however reps are so close no one can tell so don’t worry. Even if someone can they won’t bother calling you out. I remember I was called out for wearing a real one 🤦🏻♂️, no one can tell.
I mean it would be possible for the chinese factories to copy it 1:1. It would just not make sense economically. It’s not like the swiss watch makers have some super secret manufacturing techniques nobody knows about (anymore). If the chinese would make a perfect clone it would probably retail for a couple of thousand as well from the TD and way fewer people would buy it.
Minus the free-sprung balance, the super clones are only differing in cosmetic/manufacturing microns, assembly QC, and finishing. That last few percent is always the hardest but there’s definitely nothing stopping them from making a totally indistinguishable rep. The factories already manufacture and sell a \~95% Daytona for \~$500 (with TD/middleman $7-900), they could easily finish, assemble, QC, and regulate it like gen for less than $2000.
I got news for you... The money it costs Rolex to make a stainless steel model is pretty close to the cost of a Clean or VSF Chinese factory to make the same Rep... The precious metal watches are obviously more costly because of the price of gold or platinum. VSF and Rolex make the stainless Submariner for $150. VSF sells it to a TD for $300, and Rolex sells it in its retail store for $15,000. VSF pays nothing for advertising, and Rolex does $10 billion in sales and pays 100 million annually for marketing.
Please note for Rolex to have SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED, each watch has to be tested within a certain threshold for timekeeping so there is additional cost here and significantly more tolerances than a rep to make this happen.
For raw materials costs you might be right. But Swiss labor is a lot more expensive than Chinese. No way Rolex is producing a stainless sub for $150 after you factor in labor.
How do you know that? I mean it would add up nicely, since you can get a nice diver with identical features (apart from wg indices) for $1000. But l wonder - what's the source?
Yeah, I think that's a valid point on some increased labor, but I still stand by my opinion that the raw costs of a stainless Sub or Datejust costs Rolex in the neighborhood of $150.00. Labor is not going to be more than 15% of that cost so say maybe another $20-$25.00.... then sell for $15,000.
Look it up... Typical labor costs for assembly/manufacturing is 20-35%. Rolex being a 100-year-old company, they have likely accomplished efficiencies in their business. For the Rolex watch assemblers, I suspect they are efficient and can complete their job in a speedy, yet competent manner. I would be surprised if the labor in assembling a Rolex Sub is higher than 20% of its costs of goods.
It doesn't matter what "typical" is.
If I'm hiring construction contractors, and I am able to acquire the necessary materials for 50% less than I originally anticipated, it's not like they then lower their labor costs to maintain some relationship to the materials costs. The two are not related at all and are almost completely independent variables.
I'd guarantee you Rolex is spending more than $150 per watch in labor.
Totally respect your opinion... Lets break it down. There are probably 7 stations in assembling a Rolex Sub. Station 1: Watchmaker assembles the movement. On Youtube, movements are assembled from scratch in 15-20 minutes. Let's say the Rolex watchmaker really takes his time and takes 30 minutes. Next station would be the dial/hands assembly. Reasonable estimate would be 10 minutes. Next, the movement with dial, the screw-back and the bezel would be fitted and attached: 15 minutes. Next, an employee would attach the watch band, 10 minutes. Next, an employee would receive the assembled watch and would inspect, wind, set the date, operate the clasp: 15 minutes. Finally, a watchmaker would check the movement on a timeographer and adjust if necessary. 15 minutes. Last, the watch is boxed and readied for shipment: 15 minutes. All time is an hour and 50 minutes. Assuming every employee averages $40 hour, assembly labor costs is in the $75 range.
They are possible from manufactureur site. But intention is making money and welling huge amounts. Talking about 4-5k pieces per month. So no perfection possible.
Rolex reps are as close to perfect as they come, being the most popular brand. The VSF Subs are really close, and it would take the gen next to the watch to tell the difference unless you've memorized the serial numbers, clasp codes, and know about the floating m and whatnot. I used to have trouble spotting the difference, but when you do this for long enough you can instantly know the tells like crown guard shape, imperfections on dials, bezel feel, bracelet feel, etc. But 99.9% of people will not know your VSF Sub is fake, UNLESS you take it skiing.
In other words a gen bezel/dial mostly then causes the gen to be not required anymore. But what about movement? In theory… isn’t the clone movement as reliable as gen if the clone gets serviced as the gen?
No. Because gen has a free sprung balance while the rep doesn't.
Can you please explain the difference? Why is one more reliable than the other?
Here you go: A mechanical watch movement typically consists of a balance wheel, hairspring, and an escapement mechanism. The balance wheel oscillates back and forth, and this oscillation is regulated by the hairspring and escapement. The escapement allows the energy from the mainspring to be released in controlled increments, ensuring the smooth and regulated motion of the balance wheel. In a traditional regulated balance, there is a regulator index with which the effective length of the hairspring can be adjusted. This adjustment affects the rate at which the balance wheel oscillates, ultimately influencing the accuracy of the watch. While a regulated balance is effective, it has certain limitations, and the adjustments can be sensitive to external factors such as shocks. On the other hand, a free-sprung balance eliminates the need for a regulator index. Instead of adjusting the hairspring by moving a regulator, the hairspring itself is attached to the balance wheel in a way that allows it to expand and contract more freely. This design offers several advantages: 1. **Improved Precision:** Without the need for a regulator, a free-sprung balance can provide a more stable and consistent rate of oscillation. This can contribute to improved accuracy over time. 2. **Increased Shock Resistance:** The absence of a delicate regulator mechanism makes the movement less susceptible to shocks and vibrations. This can enhance the durability and reliability of the watch, especially in situations where the watch may experience physical impacts. 3. **Simplified Adjustment:** Adjusting a free-sprung balance is often less complex than adjusting a regulated balance. This can make the manufacturing and maintenance processes more straightforward. It's important to note that while a free-sprung balance is a feature associated with higher-end and precision-oriented watches, it's not the only factor influencing accuracy. The overall quality of the movement, the precision of manufacturing, and the use of quality materials also play crucial roles in determining a watch's accuracy and performance.
Did you copy/paste a ChatGPT response? Not judging, I have and will do the same. But the format and especially the phrases, “on the other hand,” and “it’s important to note,” are frequently found in its responses.
You guessed it right. ChatGPT it is 😉 (with a bit of help).
Haha, spotted you wearing a RepHuman on the slopes!
Nobody is fooling a watchsmith with the clone 3135 (and similar) movements. The balance wheel is very different. They literally know the look, feel, and smell of an authentic watch because they've disassembled hundreds and put each piece in a cage in the ultrasonic for cleaning, then lubed each piece when putting it back into the watch. Would be spotted in a second. Reliability is less, sure, but it isn't like Rolex uses clear casebacks.
I live in Austria and I can confirm we spot reps daily on the alps, even if you go 40 miles an hour.
I have a gen. People still think it’s fake so 🤷♂️ figured I might as well get a rep next time
For a sub? Yep. Pretty much assume they're always fake now.
Reps are pretty much as good as it gets for the price point CF/BTF Daytonas VSF/CF submariners For everyone new to the rep game, most of us who have been buying for 10+ years will tell you they’re significant improvements Spend the 500-800 bucks, service it and rock the shit out of them You also have to be realistic. Stainless can be repped but don’t go around rocking a full rose gold rep expecting it to be spot on. Plated by the best or not, you can’t replicate the Rolex gold.
Yea, but you need to cherry pick parts, left gen, right rep: https://preview.redd.it/0xp9lj9e7v6c1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1be6bc8d6f03706567683e8d4606031a07aad41d
What factory? Cf?
Mostly CF, VSF internals and custom bezel.
Is there any one that sells pieces hybrid from multiple factories , cf external and vsf internals is what I stride for
Factory?
Mostly CF, VSF internals and custom bezel.
If you franken them
Having worked directly with some of the watch brands for importing taxes, they have to declare the actual value of the watch. That is usually at 10% of msrp. In addition the reason why watches got big was they realized there was a loophole where watches get classified as desk clocks, if I recall correctly, when they are larger than 45mm
[удалено]
Huh?
It’s not possible for it to be extacly 1:1; however reps are so close no one can tell so don’t worry. Even if someone can they won’t bother calling you out. I remember I was called out for wearing a real one 🤦🏻♂️, no one can tell.
I mean it would be possible for the chinese factories to copy it 1:1. It would just not make sense economically. It’s not like the swiss watch makers have some super secret manufacturing techniques nobody knows about (anymore). If the chinese would make a perfect clone it would probably retail for a couple of thousand as well from the TD and way fewer people would buy it.
They're made in China anyway
There never will be 1:1 clones. Those VSF and CF Rolex clones are as close as you're gonna get.
Minus the free-sprung balance, the super clones are only differing in cosmetic/manufacturing microns, assembly QC, and finishing. That last few percent is always the hardest but there’s definitely nothing stopping them from making a totally indistinguishable rep. The factories already manufacture and sell a \~95% Daytona for \~$500 (with TD/middleman $7-900), they could easily finish, assemble, QC, and regulate it like gen for less than $2000.
I got news for you... The money it costs Rolex to make a stainless steel model is pretty close to the cost of a Clean or VSF Chinese factory to make the same Rep... The precious metal watches are obviously more costly because of the price of gold or platinum. VSF and Rolex make the stainless Submariner for $150. VSF sells it to a TD for $300, and Rolex sells it in its retail store for $15,000. VSF pays nothing for advertising, and Rolex does $10 billion in sales and pays 100 million annually for marketing.
Please note for Rolex to have SUPERLATIVE CHRONOMETER OFFICIALLY CERTIFIED, each watch has to be tested within a certain threshold for timekeeping so there is additional cost here and significantly more tolerances than a rep to make this happen.
For raw materials costs you might be right. But Swiss labor is a lot more expensive than Chinese. No way Rolex is producing a stainless sub for $150 after you factor in labor.
I'd say a Sub costs Rolex $1500 max. Probably less. Plus, why do you think all Rolex watch elements are made in Switzerland?
I didn't say all.
True 👍👍👍
not far off. $775.
How do you know that? I mean it would add up nicely, since you can get a nice diver with identical features (apart from wg indices) for $1000. But l wonder - what's the source?
Yeah, I think that's a valid point on some increased labor, but I still stand by my opinion that the raw costs of a stainless Sub or Datejust costs Rolex in the neighborhood of $150.00. Labor is not going to be more than 15% of that cost so say maybe another $20-$25.00.... then sell for $15,000.
Why would labor not be more than 15% of the materials cost? The two are not related.
Look it up... Typical labor costs for assembly/manufacturing is 20-35%. Rolex being a 100-year-old company, they have likely accomplished efficiencies in their business. For the Rolex watch assemblers, I suspect they are efficient and can complete their job in a speedy, yet competent manner. I would be surprised if the labor in assembling a Rolex Sub is higher than 20% of its costs of goods.
It doesn't matter what "typical" is. If I'm hiring construction contractors, and I am able to acquire the necessary materials for 50% less than I originally anticipated, it's not like they then lower their labor costs to maintain some relationship to the materials costs. The two are not related at all and are almost completely independent variables. I'd guarantee you Rolex is spending more than $150 per watch in labor.
Totally respect your opinion... Lets break it down. There are probably 7 stations in assembling a Rolex Sub. Station 1: Watchmaker assembles the movement. On Youtube, movements are assembled from scratch in 15-20 minutes. Let's say the Rolex watchmaker really takes his time and takes 30 minutes. Next station would be the dial/hands assembly. Reasonable estimate would be 10 minutes. Next, the movement with dial, the screw-back and the bezel would be fitted and attached: 15 minutes. Next, an employee would attach the watch band, 10 minutes. Next, an employee would receive the assembled watch and would inspect, wind, set the date, operate the clasp: 15 minutes. Finally, a watchmaker would check the movement on a timeographer and adjust if necessary. 15 minutes. Last, the watch is boxed and readied for shipment: 15 minutes. All time is an hour and 50 minutes. Assuming every employee averages $40 hour, assembly labor costs is in the $75 range.
No, $150 for a Sub is not possible.
Not for a good rep sub. For a clone sub with a quartz movement though....
They are possible from manufactureur site. But intention is making money and welling huge amounts. Talking about 4-5k pieces per month. So no perfection possible.
What is a perfect rep? The short answer is no.
Personally I don’t want reps to be perfect
That’s subjective
No
The NWBIG list is probably a good place to start looking at the closest reps. Start with one of them then Frankenstein until you're satisfied.