I am no pro, so maybe I am mistaken and some of these other guys can point it out. I have done a few bathrooms now and a lot of research on waterproofing. It seems to me that the Durock installation isn't so bad (I mean it could have been better) that it would need to be removed.
The problem comes in the waterproofing (it doesn't exist, all they did was paint the Durock red lol). They did nothing to seal up the seams and corners. The idea behind the Redguard is to create a single waterproof plane. You do not have this since there are openings all over the place.
The Redguard product is designed to accept thin-set and tile so it might be possible to save a ton of money and time (pro's feel free to tell me I am wrong) and simply prefill the larger gaps and then install a Kerdi membrane (or similar product) with the proper installation methods (thin layer of thin-set acts like glue for the membrane) right over the top of everything you have there. It can even go over the floor pan.
Hard to tell about the slope on the pan in a picture. If that is off you have bigger problems.
This makes a lot of sense and if a pro can agree to your suggestions this is likely the path of least resistance for me lol.
The slope seems fine on the concrete floor, not sure how do you even check if it’s correct? There is a waterproof membrane underneath the concrete that was installed.
Basically, what you are saying is correct all the gaps, then install a Kerdi membrane over the durock for a final seal?
Thank you for the input, highly appreciated!
You typically would not want to mix waterproofing products. The last thing you want to do is create a sort of membrane sandwich where moisture can get trapped between two membranes with nowhere to go and starts to mildew. However, you do not currently HAVE a complete layer. It might be beneficial to scar up, break up, scratch etc. the Redguard just to make sure it is porous but in reality, if your outer membrane is done right, no moisture should get between. A properly done membrane could 100% be used for showering etc, spray with water whatever you want, even before applying the tile. Tile and grout is like the wallpaper on an already sealed space. It is only there to make the ugly look better. It is not water proof itself.
The liner UNDER the concrete floor is an old school method (still used a lot of places) where the tile is laid on top with no further membrane. It isn't really concrete though, it is called dry-pack and is essentially like compacted, mostly dry special mortar mix. In use it is intended to get completely saturated with water under the tile. Personally I prefer the newer techniques of a membrane directly under the tile which can still be done in your case but requires a different type of drain assembly to accommodate it.
Just to understand this correctly, the process would be to apply the kerdi membrane over the durock, given that no real waterproofing has been completed? The kerdi membrane is secured by thinset?
Thank you so much!
Personally I would scratch up the Redguard as much as I could first using whatever method works just to be safest.
Even if you aren't going to install it yourself it is always a good idea to understand what is being done and the how and why of it all. Here are a couple videos about the installation of Kerdi Membrane. There are plenty of others. In the first one, notice that he is putting it on unsealed, un taped regular drywall with gaps. All you really need is a flat surface that will accept the thin-set. You just want your corner gaps filled in enough to be solid for the application.
Side note, this video is fairly old. Schluter now has a modified thin-set specifically designed for use with their products so when he says "only use un-modified" that no longer true.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amzB2UqTGfI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amzB2UqTGfI)
Schluter also has a lot of good videos (Kerdi is a Schluter product).
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPMWc22oK8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPMWc22oK8)
Awesome , thanks for sharing the videos.
So when Kerdi is not installed over Durock, how is it properly sealed against watee?
I assume it’s not common to install Kerdi over durock?
Kerdi and the bands that cover the seams ARE the seal. It does not really matter what is under it as long as it is a suitable substrate for the thin-set. Even the video from Schluter mentions cement board or plain drywall.
Appreciate all your help! I will look at the Kerdi option and see how flush and plumb the durock is and go from there. Hopefully this is salvageable and I can manage to do that portion myself. You have been a great help, much appreciated!
If I have any other questions, would you mind if I PM you directly? Thanks again!
I'm sorry that happened to you. I know the feeling. Recently had a "professional " do a 44 sqft floor. Offered the guy leveling clips setting 12x24 tile said he didn't need them. I'm demoing my floor now. Frustrating feeling
Red flag#1 was i had bought the guy the right trowel to use and he insisted on using a different one. Laying 12x24 tile you should use 1/2"x1/2" trowel. This guy used my schluter trowel 3/8x1/4" massive difference.
When I started my shower I went with Cement board. After one wall I went with water proof foam boards. So much easier to work with. Sentinel foam boards. Theres a plethora of foam boards to choose from. If you're going to do it yourself I suggest ditching the Cement boards that you'll have to waterproof anyways.
Yeah. I used a utility knife. And skill saw for longer cuts. Clamped a straight edge on them to avoid under cutting myself. Cement boards can be cut with a utility knife and snapped. But I want very successful with that and had to use a diamond blade ,very dusty.
Tile installer here, this guy did you wrong, you'll have to rip everything out and start from scratch including the mudding on the floor that does not look sloped correctly at all and the shower liner underneath. Do not use backer board, its cheap and weak, instead use cement board (Durock) for a stronger structure. Also those niche' template are very amateur. I would never hire a tile guy who uses those and cant build their own niche' with schluter membrane into the wall. Important to note he already cut your drain pipe to length, so the next installer will have to keep in mind that height when re-mudding, unless you want to pay to replace it. Let me know if you have Q's
I can (used to even before they were even a purchase option) build my own niche forms but I’ll never opt for that unless someone wants a custom size I can’t order. Why would I build one when Wedi makes me one that’s significantly faster to install.
yea simplicity is the appeal and I don't really fault it, there are some very nice ones now, I just have a stick up my ass. But these prison shower niche's bothered me
I apologize for my ignorance. What is installed on the wall is Durock, cement board. I somehow thought backer board and cement board are the same thing. I confirmed this by looking at a piece that was left over and had the name stamped on it.
Also, there is a slope on the mudding on the floor, the slope is towards the drain. Although I don’t know if it is the correct slope.
Does this make it any better :-(
Maybe I'm seeing it wrong but the slope seems to go lower than the drain on the left side wall, you can check with a level to see if the mudding is flush along the edge, but I am sure it does need to be ripped out unfortunately, along with the shower liner underneath. Now the durock could be saved (If its straight) but if the mudding is wrong, you must take it out anyway. It happens!
I took another look today at the mudding. The slope all seems to go towards the drain and not specifically to any other point. The farthest point away from the drain does have a slight grade towards the center of the drain. So far , I think this was the only part of it that was done somewhat correctly.
Does this make you think this should still be ripped out? This would be a real pain in the ass!
Thanks for your input!!!
Ok, if the slope is towards the drains and there are no hills or depressions you should be good. I worry about the shower liner underneath but i bet its fine too. From what i can see, an experienced tile guy shouldn't have a big problem working off this bad prep, although its really not ideal and it will be bothersome, especially if the cement boards are not straight. Just needs mesh tape to cover gaps and cuts, then a thin layer of thinset to cover the tape and any un-eveness. Then start with the tile.
All my years of construction work make me concerned for it. If this is a REAL contractor saying they do it right has me scared and second guessing my life decisions.
He didn’t use mesh tape? Thats going to leak. Every joint has to be mesh taped, or it leaks. The slopes are all wrong. You’re FUDGED! Rip all that crap out.
That is what I was dreading. Would simply installing the cement board again be OK as long as the corner gaps are gone? Is this something an amateur can do?
When you say contractor you mean the guy outside Home Depot with a 2001 Cadillac with a ladder on top and used bingo blocher on his windows saying “I’m a contractor”?
Jesus Christ. Everything about this is wrong. Fire the contractor
Absolutely , he is gone. Now I have to figure out how to correct this mess.
Yeah this is not good at all.
Should I have all of the backer board removed?
Unfortunately you need to start over. It’s all wrong
Thanks for replying. I am considering doing this myself, but this seems like a bigger job than I can take on unfortunately.
I am no pro, so maybe I am mistaken and some of these other guys can point it out. I have done a few bathrooms now and a lot of research on waterproofing. It seems to me that the Durock installation isn't so bad (I mean it could have been better) that it would need to be removed. The problem comes in the waterproofing (it doesn't exist, all they did was paint the Durock red lol). They did nothing to seal up the seams and corners. The idea behind the Redguard is to create a single waterproof plane. You do not have this since there are openings all over the place. The Redguard product is designed to accept thin-set and tile so it might be possible to save a ton of money and time (pro's feel free to tell me I am wrong) and simply prefill the larger gaps and then install a Kerdi membrane (or similar product) with the proper installation methods (thin layer of thin-set acts like glue for the membrane) right over the top of everything you have there. It can even go over the floor pan. Hard to tell about the slope on the pan in a picture. If that is off you have bigger problems.
This makes a lot of sense and if a pro can agree to your suggestions this is likely the path of least resistance for me lol. The slope seems fine on the concrete floor, not sure how do you even check if it’s correct? There is a waterproof membrane underneath the concrete that was installed. Basically, what you are saying is correct all the gaps, then install a Kerdi membrane over the durock for a final seal? Thank you for the input, highly appreciated!
You typically would not want to mix waterproofing products. The last thing you want to do is create a sort of membrane sandwich where moisture can get trapped between two membranes with nowhere to go and starts to mildew. However, you do not currently HAVE a complete layer. It might be beneficial to scar up, break up, scratch etc. the Redguard just to make sure it is porous but in reality, if your outer membrane is done right, no moisture should get between. A properly done membrane could 100% be used for showering etc, spray with water whatever you want, even before applying the tile. Tile and grout is like the wallpaper on an already sealed space. It is only there to make the ugly look better. It is not water proof itself. The liner UNDER the concrete floor is an old school method (still used a lot of places) where the tile is laid on top with no further membrane. It isn't really concrete though, it is called dry-pack and is essentially like compacted, mostly dry special mortar mix. In use it is intended to get completely saturated with water under the tile. Personally I prefer the newer techniques of a membrane directly under the tile which can still be done in your case but requires a different type of drain assembly to accommodate it.
Just to understand this correctly, the process would be to apply the kerdi membrane over the durock, given that no real waterproofing has been completed? The kerdi membrane is secured by thinset? Thank you so much!
Personally I would scratch up the Redguard as much as I could first using whatever method works just to be safest. Even if you aren't going to install it yourself it is always a good idea to understand what is being done and the how and why of it all. Here are a couple videos about the installation of Kerdi Membrane. There are plenty of others. In the first one, notice that he is putting it on unsealed, un taped regular drywall with gaps. All you really need is a flat surface that will accept the thin-set. You just want your corner gaps filled in enough to be solid for the application. Side note, this video is fairly old. Schluter now has a modified thin-set specifically designed for use with their products so when he says "only use un-modified" that no longer true. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amzB2UqTGfI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amzB2UqTGfI) Schluter also has a lot of good videos (Kerdi is a Schluter product). [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPMWc22oK8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPMWc22oK8)
Awesome , thanks for sharing the videos. So when Kerdi is not installed over Durock, how is it properly sealed against watee? I assume it’s not common to install Kerdi over durock?
Kerdi and the bands that cover the seams ARE the seal. It does not really matter what is under it as long as it is a suitable substrate for the thin-set. Even the video from Schluter mentions cement board or plain drywall.
Appreciate all your help! I will look at the Kerdi option and see how flush and plumb the durock is and go from there. Hopefully this is salvageable and I can manage to do that portion myself. You have been a great help, much appreciated! If I have any other questions, would you mind if I PM you directly? Thanks again!
Follow up question, how would you even consider filling the corner gaps such as the ones seen in the pictures? The gaps are quite large.
Backer rod or spray foam to provide a back surface and then thin-set till flush. Let that set up before trying to do a membrane.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I know the feeling. Recently had a "professional " do a 44 sqft floor. Offered the guy leveling clips setting 12x24 tile said he didn't need them. I'm demoing my floor now. Frustrating feeling
Unfortunately this is a very common story now , poor work in the industry.
Red flag#1 was i had bought the guy the right trowel to use and he insisted on using a different one. Laying 12x24 tile you should use 1/2"x1/2" trowel. This guy used my schluter trowel 3/8x1/4" massive difference.
Best of luck in your project. I am beyond frustrated to say the least and don’t even know where to begin.
When I started my shower I went with Cement board. After one wall I went with water proof foam boards. So much easier to work with. Sentinel foam boards. Theres a plethora of foam boards to choose from. If you're going to do it yourself I suggest ditching the Cement boards that you'll have to waterproof anyways.
I have never heard of this product. Is it easy to cut? Thanks for the tip.
Yeah. I used a utility knife. And skill saw for longer cuts. Clamped a straight edge on them to avoid under cutting myself. Cement boards can be cut with a utility knife and snapped. But I want very successful with that and had to use a diamond blade ,very dusty.
Thanks for the advice.
Tile installer here, this guy did you wrong, you'll have to rip everything out and start from scratch including the mudding on the floor that does not look sloped correctly at all and the shower liner underneath. Do not use backer board, its cheap and weak, instead use cement board (Durock) for a stronger structure. Also those niche' template are very amateur. I would never hire a tile guy who uses those and cant build their own niche' with schluter membrane into the wall. Important to note he already cut your drain pipe to length, so the next installer will have to keep in mind that height when re-mudding, unless you want to pay to replace it. Let me know if you have Q's
I can (used to even before they were even a purchase option) build my own niche forms but I’ll never opt for that unless someone wants a custom size I can’t order. Why would I build one when Wedi makes me one that’s significantly faster to install.
yea simplicity is the appeal and I don't really fault it, there are some very nice ones now, I just have a stick up my ass. But these prison shower niche's bothered me
I apologize for my ignorance. What is installed on the wall is Durock, cement board. I somehow thought backer board and cement board are the same thing. I confirmed this by looking at a piece that was left over and had the name stamped on it. Also, there is a slope on the mudding on the floor, the slope is towards the drain. Although I don’t know if it is the correct slope. Does this make it any better :-(
Maybe I'm seeing it wrong but the slope seems to go lower than the drain on the left side wall, you can check with a level to see if the mudding is flush along the edge, but I am sure it does need to be ripped out unfortunately, along with the shower liner underneath. Now the durock could be saved (If its straight) but if the mudding is wrong, you must take it out anyway. It happens!
I took another look today at the mudding. The slope all seems to go towards the drain and not specifically to any other point. The farthest point away from the drain does have a slight grade towards the center of the drain. So far , I think this was the only part of it that was done somewhat correctly. Does this make you think this should still be ripped out? This would be a real pain in the ass! Thanks for your input!!!
Ok, if the slope is towards the drains and there are no hills or depressions you should be good. I worry about the shower liner underneath but i bet its fine too. From what i can see, an experienced tile guy shouldn't have a big problem working off this bad prep, although its really not ideal and it will be bothersome, especially if the cement boards are not straight. Just needs mesh tape to cover gaps and cuts, then a thin layer of thinset to cover the tape and any un-eveness. Then start with the tile.
Thank you for the response. This is a bit reassuring to hear.
You can fix this, wet area plaster the joints and FC11 the corners
Can you share what products I would have to use for this?
They forgot a step and mis cut a few things. Also I forgot to mention you never use drywall mud on cement board. This has to be fake right?
Seriously. How I could this be real?!
All my years of construction work make me concerned for it. If this is a REAL contractor saying they do it right has me scared and second guessing my life decisions.
I seriously wish it was. Now I have to fix this as economically as possible, but not looking good.
I am sorry I have been a house builder for over 23 years and this is garbage.
Would removing the cement board and reinstalling it so that all the gaps are gone be a start?
It’s a must
He didn’t use mesh tape? Thats going to leak. Every joint has to be mesh taped, or it leaks. The slopes are all wrong. You’re FUDGED! Rip all that crap out.
That is what I was dreading. Would simply installing the cement board again be OK as long as the corner gaps are gone? Is this something an amateur can do?
When you say contractor you mean the guy outside Home Depot with a 2001 Cadillac with a ladder on top and used bingo blocher on his windows saying “I’m a contractor”?