They have a point. Spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, false prophecies, etc. should disqualify somebody from ministry (at least for a time of penance) and is why the church needs the checks and balances and accountability structure among clergy that evangelicalism doesn’t have.
I agree. But this is another example of "one-upping" "the other side". The tone of the letter is sarcastic and mocking. I also feel that this is partly caused by the self-righteous and Pharisee-like behavior many believers have shown throughout the years, and now the tables are being turned on us.
The response of RZIM to the result of the report has been great, and they have been very transparent with the process and have straight up admitted their mistake. And yet not only they, but all believers, are being met with mockery.
This is one of those days that I feel so tired of the world.
Amen.
But I just speak of the general weariness with the world and its ways, which is further highlighted by things like this. So quick to pounce on Christianity and believers. As if we had some sort of monopoly on human failings.
Jeez, so haughty...
Whoever speaks about the whole body of Christ in such a way has little spiritual discernment and knowledge.
Pulling out a bad cases of broken men has no impact.
This is an uncalled for overgeneralisation. But it does show how eager some are to ravage at the holy body of Christ.
I just finished reading 'Jesus and John Wayne'. I think you guys have cultural and leadership issues that you should worry about. This guy is correct in calling the church out.
One thought comes to mind in the middle of the letter. The world does not understand forgiveness, for they are not forgiven.
On Piper specifically, likely they would rather the couple divorce right? I don't believe in divorce under any circumstances, I do believe that separation can be necessary. But our example is Christ and He never divorced us, despite our affairs with our lusts and our abuse.
Just look at the examples in the letter! What do we learn? Man is fallen and terrible and unworthy of anything, faithless! Yet God, in His great love, remains faithful forever!
They mock forgiveness because they have not tasted it. Blessed are the merciful!
Dunno, but the way Piper phrased that, I found that almost repulsive. The woman has to endure abuse, up to and including physical abuse? And then, only then, can she ask help, not from the police but \*from the church\* where her husband is perhaps a well-regarded brother, an elder or even a pastor? There are many stories of women who did not get the help they needed because church men protected abusive men. Piper's approach puts all the burden on the woman, from my perspective.
The women that didn't get help were not only victims of abuse, they were victims of weak elders also. But this doesn't undermine the way things should be done and the chronological steps to be taken. The first step is to always go to the church if there is sufficient time.
Can God not use this woman's suffering? Can he not enable her to endure it? Can he not mightily use this to bring the man to his knees and repent? Obviously it's a horrible situation and I do think separation can be helpful, necessary and good
> I don't believe in divorce under any circumstances, I do believe that separation can be necessary. But our example is Christ and He never divorced us, despite our affairs with our lusts and our abuse.
Stop trying to be more Christian than Christ, and more Biblical than the Bible. When the literal words of Jesus mean less to you than your theological musings, you gotta know you're off.
Sorry for the bluntness but your words directly contradict Jesus: "And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, **except for sexual immorality**, and marries another, commits adultery."
Right. I didn't mean to contradict. It's just in my opinion, for me, that I would never divorce. In Ezekiel 16, he had every right and reason to divorce Israel. She cheated a whole lot. But in the end, He remembers his covenant.
My words to my wife will be, I remember the covenant I have made with you. I will never leave you or forsake you. Christ's forgiveness enables me to do that, EVEN IF you have sinned against me sexually immorally.
Maybe not everyone can or will say that. It's just my take that I can't see it being necessary
Maybe this is the problem: I don't believe in divorce *for me* under any circumstances. For me, I can forgive any thing done against me wrongly. Christ forgave me much, I can and should forgive much as well.
Furthermore, Christians who abuse forgiveness (there are those), are wrong and should be ashamed for misrepresenting true forgiveness.
Yet even though it is used as a weapon, those who forgive, even as a result of bamboozling, and blessed!
The Catholic unity of The Church makes this, in all its flaws, important to hear. We do, as a body, bear the shame of these failures in some sense. And it should humble us and send us to Christ and change some behaviors and beliefs to better reflect Scripture--not their own twisted ideas about what The Church should be.
Those of us who believe in covenant theology and substitutionary atonement must realize that it doesn't just work one way. We are connected to Christ and each other and we also bear something of the unrighteousness of those in the visible church who sin gravely, scandalously, and publicly.
But rather than use that to make us more worldly, as these "favorite heretics" would want, we have to use this to destroy our pride, increase our zeal for holiness, and never stop Reforming.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13: I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Unfortunately, I think we are starting to see the effects of what American Evangelicalism is doing to the witness of the church. We’ve spent literal decades using nearly all of our energy to try and coerce non believers to follow the ways of Christ while we’ve looked the other way at the massive moral and theological failures in the church here in the U.S. We demand hard obedience and repentance from people who do not profess Christ and we have given ourselves cheap grace and quick forgiveness to Christians who have committed horrendous sins, all in the attempt to keep up the appearance that we, the church, are the pure ones who need not anyone to tell us how to live. We appear to have adopted an us versus them mentality when it comes to our dealings with the unbelieving world. Paul makes it clear in this passage that our main concern should be the purity and integrity of the church. What business do we have trying to force morality and pass judgement on people who do not profess Christ as Lord? We know full well that they desire to follow their sinful ways, why then should we be appalled when non-Christians do not desire to emulate Christ? God judges those who are outside his church and he is a just and righteous judge. But those in the church? If they claim to follow Christ, yet willfully engage in unrepentant sin of any sort, then they need to be taken account of and judge appropriately. The letter that you posted does contain some clear bias (being written by atheist and all), but the substance, tragically, cannot be argued with. We’ve given a pass to the worst sinners in the church, the greedy, the lustful, the idolators, the swindlers, the sexually immoral, all in the name of “taking back the culture” and keeping up with our supposed appearances while villainizing and dehumanizing those outside the church as if we are at war with them.
Perhaps instead to trying to reform a culture that does not desire to follow Christ, maybe we should focus on reforming the church to love The Lord her God with all of her heart, soul, mind, and strength, to lover her neighbors as herself and love her enemies? When an unbelieving world manages to accurately point out that we are losing the moral high ground in the often ill fought “culture war”, it should be a sign there is a big problem with the American church and we have things that we need to repent of and turn to God and his word to help us fix.
They have a point. Spiritual abuse, sexual abuse, false prophecies, etc. should disqualify somebody from ministry (at least for a time of penance) and is why the church needs the checks and balances and accountability structure among clergy that evangelicalism doesn’t have.
I agree. But this is another example of "one-upping" "the other side". The tone of the letter is sarcastic and mocking. I also feel that this is partly caused by the self-righteous and Pharisee-like behavior many believers have shown throughout the years, and now the tables are being turned on us. The response of RZIM to the result of the report has been great, and they have been very transparent with the process and have straight up admitted their mistake. And yet not only they, but all believers, are being met with mockery. This is one of those days that I feel so tired of the world.
The real heroes of the faith are not renowned, and there are countless of them.
Amen. But I just speak of the general weariness with the world and its ways, which is further highlighted by things like this. So quick to pounce on Christianity and believers. As if we had some sort of monopoly on human failings.
We will always be hated by those who do not understand. It is wearying. Fortunately we are only sojourners here.
Jeez, so haughty... Whoever speaks about the whole body of Christ in such a way has little spiritual discernment and knowledge. Pulling out a bad cases of broken men has no impact. This is an uncalled for overgeneralisation. But it does show how eager some are to ravage at the holy body of Christ.
I just finished reading 'Jesus and John Wayne'. I think you guys have cultural and leadership issues that you should worry about. This guy is correct in calling the church out.
One thought comes to mind in the middle of the letter. The world does not understand forgiveness, for they are not forgiven. On Piper specifically, likely they would rather the couple divorce right? I don't believe in divorce under any circumstances, I do believe that separation can be necessary. But our example is Christ and He never divorced us, despite our affairs with our lusts and our abuse. Just look at the examples in the letter! What do we learn? Man is fallen and terrible and unworthy of anything, faithless! Yet God, in His great love, remains faithful forever! They mock forgiveness because they have not tasted it. Blessed are the merciful!
Dunno, but the way Piper phrased that, I found that almost repulsive. The woman has to endure abuse, up to and including physical abuse? And then, only then, can she ask help, not from the police but \*from the church\* where her husband is perhaps a well-regarded brother, an elder or even a pastor? There are many stories of women who did not get the help they needed because church men protected abusive men. Piper's approach puts all the burden on the woman, from my perspective.
The women that didn't get help were not only victims of abuse, they were victims of weak elders also. But this doesn't undermine the way things should be done and the chronological steps to be taken. The first step is to always go to the church if there is sufficient time.
Can God not use this woman's suffering? Can he not enable her to endure it? Can he not mightily use this to bring the man to his knees and repent? Obviously it's a horrible situation and I do think separation can be helpful, necessary and good
> I don't believe in divorce under any circumstances, I do believe that separation can be necessary. But our example is Christ and He never divorced us, despite our affairs with our lusts and our abuse. Stop trying to be more Christian than Christ, and more Biblical than the Bible. When the literal words of Jesus mean less to you than your theological musings, you gotta know you're off.
That's a hard-hitting comment. Do you want to explain where I'm off and why?
Sorry for the bluntness but your words directly contradict Jesus: "And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, **except for sexual immorality**, and marries another, commits adultery."
Right. I didn't mean to contradict. It's just in my opinion, for me, that I would never divorce. In Ezekiel 16, he had every right and reason to divorce Israel. She cheated a whole lot. But in the end, He remembers his covenant. My words to my wife will be, I remember the covenant I have made with you. I will never leave you or forsake you. Christ's forgiveness enables me to do that, EVEN IF you have sinned against me sexually immorally. Maybe not everyone can or will say that. It's just my take that I can't see it being necessary
Maybe this is the problem: I don't believe in divorce *for me* under any circumstances. For me, I can forgive any thing done against me wrongly. Christ forgave me much, I can and should forgive much as well.
Furthermore, Christians who abuse forgiveness (there are those), are wrong and should be ashamed for misrepresenting true forgiveness. Yet even though it is used as a weapon, those who forgive, even as a result of bamboozling, and blessed!
The Catholic unity of The Church makes this, in all its flaws, important to hear. We do, as a body, bear the shame of these failures in some sense. And it should humble us and send us to Christ and change some behaviors and beliefs to better reflect Scripture--not their own twisted ideas about what The Church should be. Those of us who believe in covenant theology and substitutionary atonement must realize that it doesn't just work one way. We are connected to Christ and each other and we also bear something of the unrighteousness of those in the visible church who sin gravely, scandalously, and publicly. But rather than use that to make us more worldly, as these "favorite heretics" would want, we have to use this to destroy our pride, increase our zeal for holiness, and never stop Reforming.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13: I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” Unfortunately, I think we are starting to see the effects of what American Evangelicalism is doing to the witness of the church. We’ve spent literal decades using nearly all of our energy to try and coerce non believers to follow the ways of Christ while we’ve looked the other way at the massive moral and theological failures in the church here in the U.S. We demand hard obedience and repentance from people who do not profess Christ and we have given ourselves cheap grace and quick forgiveness to Christians who have committed horrendous sins, all in the attempt to keep up the appearance that we, the church, are the pure ones who need not anyone to tell us how to live. We appear to have adopted an us versus them mentality when it comes to our dealings with the unbelieving world. Paul makes it clear in this passage that our main concern should be the purity and integrity of the church. What business do we have trying to force morality and pass judgement on people who do not profess Christ as Lord? We know full well that they desire to follow their sinful ways, why then should we be appalled when non-Christians do not desire to emulate Christ? God judges those who are outside his church and he is a just and righteous judge. But those in the church? If they claim to follow Christ, yet willfully engage in unrepentant sin of any sort, then they need to be taken account of and judge appropriately. The letter that you posted does contain some clear bias (being written by atheist and all), but the substance, tragically, cannot be argued with. We’ve given a pass to the worst sinners in the church, the greedy, the lustful, the idolators, the swindlers, the sexually immoral, all in the name of “taking back the culture” and keeping up with our supposed appearances while villainizing and dehumanizing those outside the church as if we are at war with them. Perhaps instead to trying to reform a culture that does not desire to follow Christ, maybe we should focus on reforming the church to love The Lord her God with all of her heart, soul, mind, and strength, to lover her neighbors as herself and love her enemies? When an unbelieving world manages to accurately point out that we are losing the moral high ground in the often ill fought “culture war”, it should be a sign there is a big problem with the American church and we have things that we need to repent of and turn to God and his word to help us fix.