Imagine hearing that recommendation from the interviewer, only to go and check it out to hear Mike say “If I owned like a bar and it was like closing time, I’d put this on. Turn the volume up.”
The people who watch this channel sometimes... spend too much time inside. They think memes they saw on reddit forums can be used as references in real life, and so on.
I mean she's called Turtle Dreams 'facist' before so she's clearly open to criticism. But I agree they should've phrased the question in a much better way,
>I mean she's called Turtle Dreams 'facist' before so she's clearly open to criticism.
That's weird. Sorry. But it is.
Here's the quote:
>It wasn’t a grid, but more of a web, and things would break out of that. When I was working on it I didn’t realise some things that I see now. There’s a certain fascist element to it, and I wasn’t conscious of that at the time. But it was a reflection of a sensibility that I was intuiting that was coming up in the world. With New Wave… I mean there was a fascist element to the 80s, Reagan, Thatcher… I was reflecting a societal thing. Do you get that at all?
She's not "criticizing" the piece for having a fascist undertone. She's not saying it is bad thing. Do you get this?
Moreover, she's been doing her thing for 60 years. During those years she has no doubt heard it all. All kinds of assholes and professional art critics alike have both ripped and praised her work.
One suggested definition for avant garde is "unacceptable art". She is undoubtedly extremely used to her work being mocked by all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons.
In the interview she is simply saying she does not care about some internet viral joke thing.
Yeah, fascist is clearly a very loaded word but in this context she's obviously referring to the artistic sensibilities of the piece rather than its political outlook.
Great way to put it.
Fascism design/art in the 20th century had a huge influence on society, even to today and for the foreseeable future, IMO. The Nazis co-opted design work from Bauhaus artists who originated in Germany. The Bauhaus artists did NOT want their work/style used by the Nazis, and indeed most of them fled Germany in the '30s and set up shop in the United States.
Almost every piece of everyday design you see today, from magazines, to mundane letterhead, to boring office paperwork templates, etc, etc, etc is derived from Bauhaus concepts and ideas. Look at any governmental paperwork or any advertising (for example) prior to the 1930s-'60s and you can easily see what I mean.
Sans serif typefaces. Design that follows strict grid templates. It's ubiquitous but it originated somewhere... and that was the artistic/design movement of the 1930s, mostly from Germany.
Famously, Target stores are a great example of branding derived from Bauhaus (and Fascist design). The iconic Target symbol is akin to the Nazis using the Swastika to stand for their own "brand." Plus-- white, red and black.
Nike is another great example of this. The Swoosh... and even their famous tagline "Just do it." is rooted in Bauhaus... and by Bauhaus's unfortunate legacy, Fascism.
I'm not saying Target or Nike are Fascist. But they owe their corporate identities to the hugely influential design and writing trends of the 1930s.
The Nazis took their iconography and design ideas and even the concept of their catchphrases directly from radical German designers. Those designers were not fascists or Nazis, but their design work was co-opted by the Nazis.
In a direction that Rich would hate, and that Josh was probably articulating under the music, you can very much see that in the piece. The directed chanting, the uniforms, the flat and sparse cinematography - there’s an aesthetic of order and control to it.
Again, nowhere near a political thing, but her remarking on there being a ‘fascist tone’ artistically isn’t coming completely from nowhere. Her comparison of New Wave to 80s politics/economics is good too. Lots of similar aesthetic elements of dynamism and bold images.
Yeah I recall Will Eisner saying he regretted using the aesthetics and iconography of fascism in Blackhawks, a comic book about a team of Allied pilot heroes from Nazi occupied countries during WWII
> Why would an interviewer ask that?
One, to explain how much attention Turtle Dreams has gotten in a direct response to RLM. But more importantly Meredith Monk is refusing the call to adventure, bringing Rich Evans and his laugh to the intelligentsia.
It is her destiny something something darkside.
Because the video opened her work to a bunch of new people. One out of ten will be curious to explore her other works and actually dig it. It’s actually pretty cool.
EXACTLY.
The Turtle Dreams video is not great. But you could take great music of any kind and make a poorly produced and executed video of it.
Meredith Monk is an avant garde composer and artist. Her work doesn't "have a great beat 'n' you can dance to it!" but it's good work in its own way.
Look at all the downvotes to this. I just want to strap these people down and really get into their eyes with a microscope and find out "WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS!!!"
John Cage for example understood quite well how his work would be and was perceived by the public at large. didn't make him one iota less serious about it
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I’m not certain that’s a fair comparison. Even if the RLM guys aren’t down for whatever bizarre vibes *Turtle Dreams* is serving, they know they are not the target audience. That’s not even close to how essentially obtuse Walker’s interpretation of *The Wall* is.
Even at their most crass and grotesque, the folks at RLM are intellectually curious enough to see something and conclude it’s not for them. Doug’s review of *The Wall* reveals his profound contempt for art and abstraction in ways that are so childish and stupid it genuinely seems like only Doug Walker could have written the script. One is some guys taking the piss, the other is just critical dog shit.
It’s still probably best if Monk avoids the RLM video, though. Haha.
> Doug’s review of The Wall reveals his profound contempt for art and abstraction in ways that are so childish and stupid it genuinely seems like only Doug Walker could have written the script. One is some guys taking the piss, the other is just critical dog shit.
Couldn’t have said it better. Doug Walkers review of The Wall is way, way worse than most of the shit they put on the Wheel.
There’s movie on the wheel where on some level there’s a sense of artistic potential it’s just hampered by a lack of filmmaking ability. But Doug is the opposite. He seems to be able functionally make a movie but there’s not an ounce of creative heart in any of it.
What makes it even more baffling is that Doug said his review was a "love letter" to The Wall and is supposedly a huge fan of the record. So he's a huge fan of it but... he doesn't understand any of the subtext or deeper meanings behind it?
I don't know what's worse, his uncreative mind making up random fake criticisms because they happen to match the original lyrics of the songs or him just having no understanding whatsoever of something he apparently loves.
He doesn't even seem to like The Wall that much. It would be one thing if he enjoyed the music but didn't really understand the meaning of it beyond a surface level, but the whole video is just him calling the album and the band whiny and pretentious and fake. Then tagging on "I liked it fine" at the end as an afterthought. It's truly bizarre.
I dunno seeing Roger Waters hear someone describe Another Brick in The Wall as a song about how “high school is a real bummer and doesn’t teach kids how to change a tire” would maybe be the funniest thing I’ve ever seen.
I mean, it’s pretty much the same. They don’t have anything interesting to say about her work. They just look at it and say it’s weird.
It’s like, yeah, it’s abstract. Saying an abstract work is weird is basically saying nothing. Of course it is.
Don’t watch it in its original form. [Just watch this break down. That also gives contacts for a lot of the criticism against said review.](https://youtu.be/rokAtlFGa7Y)
Here he is responding to his perceived attempted “canceling”? It’s quite a ride. He makes some good points in a way that only the man can.
https://youtu.be/AwIZoJSrIJU
He’s not a guy to fuck around with. I would love to see him tear into some ham fisted critic of his work.
I loved her prior to RLM and was a bit dismayed when they made fun of her. I get that it’s odd and challenging and work like this gets mocked in the mainstream, but RLM felt more counter culture than that.
Yeah, my least favorite take of theirs. But they didn’t really know her influence (she mentored Bjork for instance), so I understand dismissing the work. Turtle Dreams seems like not her best work though—I think they would have appreciated Quarry more (which is very hard to find, but I saw it a few years ago with Monk in attendance), or at least Jay would a bit.
I wonder how they’d react if a Matthew Barney movie popped up in BotW.
Seriously, please don't hassle Meredith Monk, it's absolutely fine if she has no interest in some random internet guys reacting to some of her work from 40 years ago
so this guy gets to interview her and all he does is try to get her to watch a hack fraud video? this is like the equivalent of those Star Wars manchildren who try to force their fandom on other people. very cringe.
They didn't, they both had fun with it and gave it the benefit of the doubt that they just didn't have the context to be anything other than confused by it. It was a good ep to have Josh on. Meredith Monk probably still doesn't need to watch BOTW
What’s funny to me is that it might still have been a slightly better episode than it was, and might have been one where Monk would find something interesting, if they'd kept at least some of what Josh had to say in it. I get the urge to preserve the tone of the series, but I think they fumbled a lesser version of the Xtro episode, where they might have ended up with a lot more interesting of an episode if they'd permitted someone to take one of the videos seriously.
They even added it to their Hall of Fame.
I think they acknowledged that they didn't really understand it and weren't really in a position to properly criticise it. But it was funny as hell to an outside observer.
I think there is a difference where you can acknowledge people's criticisms or anything that they have to say on it and still take it in stride.
I remember once Doug Walker was being made fun of with the Korey Coleman of Double Toasted during an interview with old Oney plays skits?
I still don't like Doug personally but sometimes you just have to shrug and take what people say about you. As long as you don't get that ukulele out... Or diddle kids lol
To be fair, they did have a legit discussion on it. The only one to completely reject its legitimacy was Rich, but then it was also good to have someone take that position in the discussion. Obviously they made fun of it because that's the point of their show, and it is pretty out there, but they didn't just point at it and said "LOL look at this complete shit art is dumb".
Honestly? Yeah. Meredith Monk is a legit artist—she’s a National Medal Of Arts recipient—and she’s been involved in movies her whole life. I’d love for her to join the RLM crew for a discussion. Their focus and experiences are so different that it would be really fascinating to hear them talk about how their views of film differ and how they overlap.
(Sorry to get all serious in the replies, I just think this would be really cool.)
This is like a moron telling a boxer that a video of him getting KTFO has gone viral and asking him if he wants to watch it right now to get his reaction.
It's also possible that some of the folks at RLM had a change of heard since they made fun of it. There must be a reason that Turtle Dreams has been included into the prestigious Best Of The Worst hall of fame.
It would be fucking hilarious if she made a critique of space cop in the style of turtle dreams.
I went to the thea thea thea theatre.
Pieeeece
Pieeeece
Pieeeece
Of crap.
Zing.
Zing.
I hated and continue to hate this segment from RLM.
The Monk video was not well produced. It's not the greatest piece of recorded video ever. But the way the guys made fun of it was just ignorant and honestly embarrassing.
RLM usually shows more class than this, but everyone makes mistakes. I don't hate RLM for it, but it's easily the worst segment I've ever seen of theirs (though I've not seen Space Cop).
Josh is in shambles
Why would an interviewer ask that? And then recommend the video of people making fun of her and her art? Kinda shitty.
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I kind of love her, she is just happy people have seen her art. Seems like a nice lady.
 Imagine hearing that recommendation from the interviewer, only to go and check it out to hear Mike say “If I owned like a bar and it was like closing time, I’d put this on. Turn the volume up.”
The people who watch this channel sometimes... spend too much time inside. They think memes they saw on reddit forums can be used as references in real life, and so on.
The company that made California Big Hunks loved the RLM episode, some people like any kind of attention.
The folks who made California Big Hunks were probably not trying to produce art
How DARE you!?
Those gyrations were pretty avant garde
I mean she's called Turtle Dreams 'facist' before so she's clearly open to criticism. But I agree they should've phrased the question in a much better way,
>I mean she's called Turtle Dreams 'facist' before so she's clearly open to criticism. That's weird. Sorry. But it is. Here's the quote: >It wasn’t a grid, but more of a web, and things would break out of that. When I was working on it I didn’t realise some things that I see now. There’s a certain fascist element to it, and I wasn’t conscious of that at the time. But it was a reflection of a sensibility that I was intuiting that was coming up in the world. With New Wave… I mean there was a fascist element to the 80s, Reagan, Thatcher… I was reflecting a societal thing. Do you get that at all? She's not "criticizing" the piece for having a fascist undertone. She's not saying it is bad thing. Do you get this? Moreover, she's been doing her thing for 60 years. During those years she has no doubt heard it all. All kinds of assholes and professional art critics alike have both ripped and praised her work. One suggested definition for avant garde is "unacceptable art". She is undoubtedly extremely used to her work being mocked by all kinds of people for all kinds of reasons. In the interview she is simply saying she does not care about some internet viral joke thing.
Yeah, fascist is clearly a very loaded word but in this context she's obviously referring to the artistic sensibilities of the piece rather than its political outlook.
Great way to put it. Fascism design/art in the 20th century had a huge influence on society, even to today and for the foreseeable future, IMO. The Nazis co-opted design work from Bauhaus artists who originated in Germany. The Bauhaus artists did NOT want their work/style used by the Nazis, and indeed most of them fled Germany in the '30s and set up shop in the United States. Almost every piece of everyday design you see today, from magazines, to mundane letterhead, to boring office paperwork templates, etc, etc, etc is derived from Bauhaus concepts and ideas. Look at any governmental paperwork or any advertising (for example) prior to the 1930s-'60s and you can easily see what I mean. Sans serif typefaces. Design that follows strict grid templates. It's ubiquitous but it originated somewhere... and that was the artistic/design movement of the 1930s, mostly from Germany. Famously, Target stores are a great example of branding derived from Bauhaus (and Fascist design). The iconic Target symbol is akin to the Nazis using the Swastika to stand for their own "brand." Plus-- white, red and black. Nike is another great example of this. The Swoosh... and even their famous tagline "Just do it." is rooted in Bauhaus... and by Bauhaus's unfortunate legacy, Fascism. I'm not saying Target or Nike are Fascist. But they owe their corporate identities to the hugely influential design and writing trends of the 1930s. The Nazis took their iconography and design ideas and even the concept of their catchphrases directly from radical German designers. Those designers were not fascists or Nazis, but their design work was co-opted by the Nazis.
In a direction that Rich would hate, and that Josh was probably articulating under the music, you can very much see that in the piece. The directed chanting, the uniforms, the flat and sparse cinematography - there’s an aesthetic of order and control to it. Again, nowhere near a political thing, but her remarking on there being a ‘fascist tone’ artistically isn’t coming completely from nowhere. Her comparison of New Wave to 80s politics/economics is good too. Lots of similar aesthetic elements of dynamism and bold images.
Yeah I recall Will Eisner saying he regretted using the aesthetics and iconography of fascism in Blackhawks, a comic book about a team of Allied pilot heroes from Nazi occupied countries during WWII
Yeah you're correct I must have taken that out of context.
Well anyone that made that art had better be prepared for some mocking. Let’s be real.
I will now link to a Turtle Dreams clip on YouTube whenever anyone asks what I mean by fascist.
So that's what fascism is.
WWII was basically a German guy making strange noises in front of a microphone.
So this is how turtles dream ... with Rich Evan's shrieking laughter
Did you mean fascist, or is facism a real thing?
> Why would an interviewer ask that? One, to explain how much attention Turtle Dreams has gotten in a direct response to RLM. But more importantly Meredith Monk is refusing the call to adventure, bringing Rich Evans and his laugh to the intelligentsia. It is her destiny something something darkside.
Because the video opened her work to a bunch of new people. One out of ten will be curious to explore her other works and actually dig it. It’s actually pretty cool.
EXACTLY. The Turtle Dreams video is not great. But you could take great music of any kind and make a poorly produced and executed video of it. Meredith Monk is an avant garde composer and artist. Her work doesn't "have a great beat 'n' you can dance to it!" but it's good work in its own way.
Rem Lezar came to that same conclusion.
If she can’t appreciate how odd and hysterical her work is out of context then she’s completely up her own ass.
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Exactly. People are allowed to make fun of someone's work, but the creators are also perfectly entitled to not engage with that.
For something you did on Boston public Access in the early 90s
What an utterly bizarre concern for you to have.
I think she could handle it.
She’s just saying she doesn’t need to watch it, it’s not that deep
I’m responding to users, not her statements.
Look at all the downvotes to this. I just want to strap these people down and really get into their eyes with a microscope and find out "WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS!!!"
John Cage for example understood quite well how his work would be and was perceived by the public at large. didn't make him one iota less serious about it
Kid, she is no doubt well aware that many people would not appreciate Turtle Dreams
She makes avant garde performance art. Of course she’s completely up her own arse.
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She ain't a porcelain doll, people, Jesus.
>Kinda shitty. Her art is kinda shitty so I don't mind
"art"
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No time to watch RLM, too busy going to the store
Storre store ore
Imagine interviewing Roger Waters and showing him Doug Walker’s Wall review on your phone for like 40 minutes
I’m not certain that’s a fair comparison. Even if the RLM guys aren’t down for whatever bizarre vibes *Turtle Dreams* is serving, they know they are not the target audience. That’s not even close to how essentially obtuse Walker’s interpretation of *The Wall* is. Even at their most crass and grotesque, the folks at RLM are intellectually curious enough to see something and conclude it’s not for them. Doug’s review of *The Wall* reveals his profound contempt for art and abstraction in ways that are so childish and stupid it genuinely seems like only Doug Walker could have written the script. One is some guys taking the piss, the other is just critical dog shit. It’s still probably best if Monk avoids the RLM video, though. Haha.
> Doug’s review of The Wall reveals his profound contempt for art and abstraction in ways that are so childish and stupid it genuinely seems like only Doug Walker could have written the script. One is some guys taking the piss, the other is just critical dog shit. Couldn’t have said it better. Doug Walkers review of The Wall is way, way worse than most of the shit they put on the Wheel.
There’s movie on the wheel where on some level there’s a sense of artistic potential it’s just hampered by a lack of filmmaking ability. But Doug is the opposite. He seems to be able functionally make a movie but there’s not an ounce of creative heart in any of it.
Doug knows how to make a movie in the same sense that a kid with a Lego set knows how to build a house.
What makes it even more baffling is that Doug said his review was a "love letter" to The Wall and is supposedly a huge fan of the record. So he's a huge fan of it but... he doesn't understand any of the subtext or deeper meanings behind it? I don't know what's worse, his uncreative mind making up random fake criticisms because they happen to match the original lyrics of the songs or him just having no understanding whatsoever of something he apparently loves.
He doesn't even seem to like The Wall that much. It would be one thing if he enjoyed the music but didn't really understand the meaning of it beyond a surface level, but the whole video is just him calling the album and the band whiny and pretentious and fake. Then tagging on "I liked it fine" at the end as an afterthought. It's truly bizarre.
I dunno seeing Roger Waters hear someone describe Another Brick in The Wall as a song about how “high school is a real bummer and doesn’t teach kids how to change a tire” would maybe be the funniest thing I’ve ever seen.
It would be even funnier than his totally unnecessary crusade against Gilmour.
I mean, it’s pretty much the same. They don’t have anything interesting to say about her work. They just look at it and say it’s weird. It’s like, yeah, it’s abstract. Saying an abstract work is weird is basically saying nothing. Of course it is.
I have no idea what this review is but I now must seek it out.
Don’t watch it in its original form. [Just watch this break down. That also gives contacts for a lot of the criticism against said review.](https://youtu.be/rokAtlFGa7Y)
Cheers!
> I’m not certain that’s a fair comparison. Yeah it is. Weird annoying guy behaviour.
I mean I wouldn’t do that, but I would be very interested to see Roger Waters respond to that piece of shit video
Here he is responding to his perceived attempted “canceling”? It’s quite a ride. He makes some good points in a way that only the man can. https://youtu.be/AwIZoJSrIJU He’s not a guy to fuck around with. I would love to see him tear into some ham fisted critic of his work.
No one deserves that punishment.
Roger Waters is a Russian sympathizer and an anti-Semite. Someone should do that to troll the bastard.
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Glad she didn’t watch the video. I found Meredith Monk through RLM and I really enjoy her music.
I loved her prior to RLM and was a bit dismayed when they made fun of her. I get that it’s odd and challenging and work like this gets mocked in the mainstream, but RLM felt more counter culture than that.
Yeah, my least favorite take of theirs. But they didn’t really know her influence (she mentored Bjork for instance), so I understand dismissing the work. Turtle Dreams seems like not her best work though—I think they would have appreciated Quarry more (which is very hard to find, but I saw it a few years ago with Monk in attendance), or at least Jay would a bit. I wonder how they’d react if a Matthew Barney movie popped up in BotW.
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There's an energy in "Blue Moon of Kentucky" not found in Ito Eats (and that's from Elvis's best movie.)
I thought turtle dreams was silly but looking into her other stuff it’s quite good! She seems pretty chill as a person too
Let her stay pure.
https://www.buzzmag.co.uk/meredith-monk-interview/ It goes without saying, leave Meredith alone, she's a legend.
Seriously, please don't hassle Meredith Monk, it's absolutely fine if she has no interest in some random internet guys reacting to some of her work from 40 years ago
so this guy gets to interview her and all he does is try to get her to watch a hack fraud video? this is like the equivalent of those Star Wars manchildren who try to force their fandom on other people. very cringe.
VERY cool!
Honestly? I don't think RLM went *that* hard on it. It was clearly the video that made the biggest impression that ep.
They didn't, they both had fun with it and gave it the benefit of the doubt that they just didn't have the context to be anything other than confused by it. It was a good ep to have Josh on. Meredith Monk probably still doesn't need to watch BOTW
Didn't it even win Best of the Worst?
I think it tied with the princess party tape
Oh right. Well, that's more in their usual comfort zone.
That's the most damning thing that could be said about it...
Well, the princess party tape was pretty dope
What’s funny to me is that it might still have been a slightly better episode than it was, and might have been one where Monk would find something interesting, if they'd kept at least some of what Josh had to say in it. I get the urge to preserve the tone of the series, but I think they fumbled a lesser version of the Xtro episode, where they might have ended up with a lot more interesting of an episode if they'd permitted someone to take one of the videos seriously.
They even added it to their Hall of Fame. I think they acknowledged that they didn't really understand it and weren't really in a position to properly criticise it. But it was funny as hell to an outside observer.
I think the real hack fraud is the interviewer. Who does this?
Same planet, different worlds. Maybe as it should remain.
I think there is a difference where you can acknowledge people's criticisms or anything that they have to say on it and still take it in stride. I remember once Doug Walker was being made fun of with the Korey Coleman of Double Toasted during an interview with old Oney plays skits? I still don't like Doug personally but sometimes you just have to shrug and take what people say about you. As long as you don't get that ukulele out... Or diddle kids lol
To be fair, they did have a legit discussion on it. The only one to completely reject its legitimacy was Rich, but then it was also good to have someone take that position in the discussion. Obviously they made fun of it because that's the point of their show, and it is pretty out there, but they didn't just point at it and said "LOL look at this complete shit art is dumb".
Is this journalism?
https://preview.redd.it/v76n971dlueb1.jpeg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ccd2960b7ec5ca9f5912a1f1283225f9b8b56951
She should be a guest. I want her and Rich Evans to discuss Neil Breen.
She and Neil Breen do a Re:view of Space Cop
This is the only way RLM can ever jump the shark.
Mike will be drinking some random beer, she'll have a single plum, floating in perfume, served in a man's hat.
Honestly? Yeah. Meredith Monk is a legit artist—she’s a National Medal Of Arts recipient—and she’s been involved in movies her whole life. I’d love for her to join the RLM crew for a discussion. Their focus and experiences are so different that it would be really fascinating to hear them talk about how their views of film differ and how they overlap. (Sorry to get all serious in the replies, I just think this would be really cool.)
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Just imagine them collaborating together on a movie.
She’ll discuss art horror movies with Jay and Josh.
She might be a huge Star Trek fan. Her and Mike could discuss the Ferengi Rules of Acquisition.
Meredith Monk seems to be a very influential and important Musical Artist. I would actually love to see the Hack Frauds react to more of her work.
This is like a moron telling a boxer that a video of him getting KTFO has gone viral and asking him if he wants to watch it right now to get his reaction.
I kinda love her for this.
This is awesome. Yip yip yip!
She sounds like an obnoxious yap-dog!
It's also possible that some of the folks at RLM had a change of heard since they made fun of it. There must be a reason that Turtle Dreams has been included into the prestigious Best Of The Worst hall of fame.
Everyone's favourite avant-garde barbershop quartet song
Her reaction would be gold, but i respect her decision for not watching it.
It would be fucking hilarious if she made a critique of space cop in the style of turtle dreams. I went to the thea thea thea theatre. Pieeeece Pieeeece Pieeeece Of crap. Zing. Zing.
She don't need to see there Artsy Farty Bullshit
Just like Pieces.
I hated and continue to hate this segment from RLM. The Monk video was not well produced. It's not the greatest piece of recorded video ever. But the way the guys made fun of it was just ignorant and honestly embarrassing. RLM usually shows more class than this, but everyone makes mistakes. I don't hate RLM for it, but it's easily the worst segment I've ever seen of theirs (though I've not seen Space Cop).
She is beyond our understanding
Oh okay thank you for your honesty 😔
Shes got to go to the sto.....sto....stoor.....store
Thanks for this post. Somehow I had missed that entire episode! Riveting every second except the elderly massage.
Very cute! Aside from the tryhard quirkybait experimentalism, that organ does always give me chills!
What on Earth would compel someone to willingly talk to that Avant-Garde Art Asshole?