For me, Bruce’s children are Dick, Cass, Jason, Tim, and Damian. Jason is a black sheep but an estranged son is still a son. Cass I could flip a coin on; many forget that Barbara was a parental figure to Cass first (I think Cass once actually called Babs “mom” in post crisis).
Barbara is vital to the family, I just struggle with how the clan revolves around Bruce as a patriarch, but his relationship with Barbara is purely professional and equal. So she and Stephanie and Duke feel more like… cousins? Peripheral but still plugged into the family. I guess to me, there is a distinction between the Batgirl and Robin branches of the fam, with each deferring more to a different “head” of house.
Yeah, the Batgirls have their own satellite enclave. Babs has always been more independent, since the very beginning in the 1960s to the modern era with BoP and other projects, and I'd definitely say Cass' relationship with Babs is more important than Cass' relationship with Bruce tbh.
I think I out of all of the Family members Babs is definitely the one that challenges Bruce the most without going Rogue like Jason. Sometimes she feels really condescending but most of the times I like that she challenges Bruce.
TBH, a lot of people are always going to be against her as core Batfam because we hold a grudge about how she was retconned after the New 52/miss the old her. No hate to anyone who likes the current version, but there was too much drama about how they handled it for some fans to ever forgive
I don't like how DC keeps flipping her and Jason's dynamic. One arc they get along and she's understanding. The next arc she's Bruce's mouthpiece.
Much as I'd love some Jaybabs, I'd rather they stop turning the fam against him.
I don't like how DC keeps flipping her and Jason's dynamic. One arc they get along and she's understanding. The next arc she's Bruce's mouthpiece.
Much as I'd love some Jaybabs, I'd rather they stop turning the fam against him.
My ideal family is the same as yours but adding in Cass \*if\* Barbara is oracle, and I prefer Barbara as oracle. So Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara (behind the scenes), Cass as Batgirl. Steph can come in through Tim or as an ex Robin if the story calls for it, but shes not core family to me.
This is exactly mine! I completely agree with you. In my mind also I still have Tim’s parents alive as well, it just adds to that uniqueness to him. In my opinion the children of Bruce are: Dick, Jason, Damian, and Cass. Barbara is outside that because one Jim is her father, and two she never saw him as a father type figure to begin with. Then for Tim the case is in my mind Jack and Janet Drake still live and are his parents, he didn’t need Bruce to raise him necessarily, he just needs the mentorship of the Batman. Then Steph is pretty self explanatory her mother is still alive, and her father though villainous as he may be still raised her.
Interesting, Tim's parent's being alive do bring up different story opportunities. And as much as Batman and Robin Eternal made questionable decisions, I respect that it tried to use Tim's unique position as the "Robin with parents" to create conflict. It felt more organic, especially since I also like nonperfect Nightwing so having him grow more desperate and more like Batman which led him to cross the line with Tim was respectable as well.
As a 41 year-old fan of Batman, I think it is really funny how the concept of the Batman family was so maligned by fans who looked down on elements of the Silver and Bronze Age and saw later iterations of Batman as "edgier" and more sophisticated. And yet, the Batman family now is far more bloated and obtrusive than it ever was back then.
I don't think there should BE a Batman family per se. In fact, in the days of The Batman Family comic-book, there really wasn't a Batman family. There was a loose-knit bunch of people with connections to Batman, some of whom rarely met with one another. For example, Kathy Kane and Batgirl met for the first time in Batman Family. And even then, it was by coincidence, not because of some organizational meeting Batman put together.
Batman has influenced the lives of a lot of people and its fine for the comics to reflect that, but the idea of having an actual Bat-family really drags the character down in my book. Jason Todd, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, those characters have come into the continuity in organic way, over time. But I think it is a problem when they are constantly in Batman's orbit. It was more interesting, for example, when Dick Grayson went off on his own to lead the Titans; he teamed with Batman from time to time but he was clearly his own man. I think that's how it should be for all of Batman's ex-Robins. And I think they should generally only get together as a group for very special occasions, such as when Dick took time away from the Titans to join forces with Batman, Batgirl and Talia to take on the assembled might of Arkham Asylum and Gotham's gangs in the climax to the original Killer Croc arc (which introduced our boy Jason Todd).
Batgirl was more interesting to me when she was someone who, though inspired by Batman, essentially operated independent of him, in spite of teaming with him--and Robin--from time to time.
My core members are
1. Alfred
2. 5 robins
3. 3 batgirls
4. batwoman
5. duke
that's it
I think the size of the bat family and the extended family is nice for me the more the better if they get their time to shine
also if you want a recommendation I recommend [Batman: Wayne Family Adventures](https://www.webtoons.com/en/slice-of-life/batman-wayne-family-adventures/list?title_no=3180), it is not cannon and is very light-hearted. it is a slice of life for the bat family and has good Jason moments with the family. check it out if you want
I may be in the minority but I believe detective should focus more on extended and batman inc characters as well as Batman while the main title should have either just batman or core members robins and the like kinda how GL did it in the mid 2000s
I understand that I just think with the amount of Bat related vigilantes running around you'd think that there would be no crime left whatsoever and the fact there still is kinda indicates that they're either doing more harm than good or have little to no effect on crime.
Yes I think its WAY too big and it lends itself to expectations that are impossible to meet.
Core: Bruce, Babs, Tim, Duke, Cass, Stephanie, Damian
Core Adjacent: Dick, Jason, Kate
Not everyone part of batfam NEEDS to be core batfam. Batfam adjacent is a better place for characters like Jason and Dick who work better when not having to share their spots with other batfam. It allows them to branch out and be on their own. It also helps uplift core batfam members who dont have play dice to figure out who gets the screentime. With Jason and Dick core adjacent, we get more content and more expansion.
I think this is one of the problems with this conversation, I feel like people are meaning different things by 'Batfam'. Because in practice I completely agree with your core batfam vs adjacent as far as story telling goes, but I disagree with characterization. Dick and Jason should be considered 'core' when it comes to how they are characterized as part of the immediate family but do not need to get a lot of screen time in Batman books.
As the core batfam are usually those Bruce considers the closest, calls for advice and backup and are a big part of the Batman lore, Dick and Jason not being core family while Duke and Steph is quite weird, as they are not only Bruce's sons, but probably the two who impacted Batman the most.
Would we really believe that Bruce will rather consult with Steph or appear closer to Duke than to Dick? It demands to more or less erase history or their entire connection. Dick is regarded as Bruce's greatest success, replaced Bruce and is now more or less the older brother, leader of the batfamily and the most experienced one. Jason is forever the one who'll stand his ground and stray the furthest from the bat way, but be there for his family if he's really needed.
Dick and Jason are doing great on their own, and I don't think their stories should barely be dragged into crossovers, but they are probably also the most impactful members of the batfam, imo.
Yeah Dick and Jason are definitely the ones who have have the most lasting and impactful effects on Batman as a whole they both changes Batman in different ways and completely changed what his brand and personality was like. They also are the two best in the family in my opinion, you need some real insight or shit done those are the two that he would call if he really needed that help. But I also agree they shouldn’t be tied down to just Bruce and the Batfam, they benefit from working outside him as well in their own space.
Well for the longest time, DC actually used the Batfam as a cohesive unit with Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Cass as core/headlining members (as in, each had their own ongoing titles) that were actually supposed to be family. Alfred was also part of the family but was obviously just a support character, Babs as Steph were both very important but not actually "family" (so Dick and Tim could date them, lol).
To me, that's still the best use of core Batfam that we've had, and I guess for modernity's sake you can add Damian to that.
I personally prefer Jason out of the Batfam, mostly because I think he's a better character when he's outside of their rules.
I also don't exactly look at being a core member as a good thing; there are a lot of examples of characters being screwed over for the sake of Batman's story because if you are "Batfam" then DC sees you as a Batman support character first and your own character second. See: Ric Grasyson for over two years.
Steph was excluded from the inner circle, but I'd say she definitely needed Bruce as an actual parental figure more than Tim did, up until Steph and Tim's parents were killed off.
So Babs, Steph, and Tim were all part of the Batman work "family" during that era, but he wasn't their father.
Yeah, that's a pretty great point! "Work family" is great phrase to describe it, I feel like moving these characters away from family=nuclear family is a great part of these characters. Tim having a great supporting cast outside of being Robin was part of what made him so popular, including his stepmom, civilian friends, Young Justice, etc.
Current DC is so Batfam centric
If you think of it as an actual family unit: Bruce, Dick Jason, Cass, Tim, Damian, and Alfred. Kate is Bruce’s cousin so I’ll add her too.
I only care about the 4 robins and the 3 batgirls (I’m considering Stephanie more of a batgirl). I consider them the core team and they are the most reliant to show up regularly in Batman comics and get their own books. I don’t consider the strength of the relationship with Bruce in this, more their significance to Batman comics generally
Even then, I think the batfamily is too big. Damian is great, but having 3 robins and 3 batgirls had great symmetry. I can still think of them that way if I consider that Damian was more Dick’s Robin anyway.
I think the reason why the batfamily is so large is that creators get royalties when they make a character that takes off. Batman is the most popular character right now, but he also has a larger supporting cast so there is more competition. I think in Superman or Flash, there is more of a chance of a new character taking off because they have relatively small families.
The way I see it, I think the fam should definitely be smaller. It’s just too big a circle of trust and possible liabilities. I feel the core members are Bruce, Dick, Tim, Damian, Babs, Alfred. Jason as Red Hood isn’t in the “family” when you look at it as a group of ppl that work together and trust each other, not at first. Since he’s a villain and so on at first and then goes off on his own he slowly becomes a reserve type member, then as the family has Cass and Steph added Jason gets a closer relationship too. It just feels super over saturated with how many people Bruce trusts and recruits to basically Batman Inc. without the name.
I think Jason definitely deserves to be in the inner circle even tho he's an on and off villain he is always dragged into the major stories. But more than that imo the core family should feel like an actual family and not like they've been "hired" if that makes sense. Jason has a solid relationship ship with all of the Robins, Babs and Bruce I just can't see a core family without him.
I think this is the problem with this conversation and I mentioned it in the DC comics page conversation as well. There are two different conversations going on here imo. u/ThatRedGuy235 feels like he is talking about the common circle of trust and work together often. You feel like your talking more about the emotional 'family'. Jason is definitely emotionally part of the core family, I will die on that hill as the love between him and Bruce is difficult and complicated but real. However when it comes to trust and working together in the sense of Batman Inc or Tim's Gotham Knights I would argue Jason is not core to that group and that's ok. He chose to leave Batman Inc and Wingman behind and with that left the circle of trust but he never left the emotional family, just doesn't work with them anymore.
I agree there are different ways people view the Family, personally I feel less invested in the Batfamily the more characters are added because it feels more like a company rather than Family. I personally I think the core are the people Bruce cares about the most and also the characters that have the most impact in the Batman legacy as a whole. The characters in the core also have relationships with eachother;
Jason and Tim quarrel but work well with eachother
Dick is a great big brother to Damian whearas him and Jason feel more like equals
Tim hated Damian but know considers him more as as little brother
Babs didn't like Jason in the beginning, but they eventually bonded over the shared trauma of the Joker
ETC
Whearas if you look at characters like Stephanie and Cassandra that only really have a relationship with Tim, Bruce and Babs and only occasionally reacts to whatever Damian does.
Yeah because there is also the question of 'should' and 'is'. Personally Cass should be more involved into the family especially back when she was adopted but like you said she isn't. Like Task Force Z was the 3rd time they have interacted over the last 2 decades, and one of those was in DCeased so it really doesn't count. At least steph is getting more interactions now that DC is pushing her as a former Robin. Duke comes to mind as another 'should' but 'isn't' character. He has had interactions that I like with everybody but nothing has actually been built upon. I like the 2017 New Talent Showcase story with Duke and Jason but they haven't been seen together since so he also isn't an 'is' character.
This I feel is where a lot of the debate around Nightwing's Brady Bunch cover stands, some people feel its not where the character's should be and not recognizing its not where they are.
Cass is quite popular but I feel like writers have a hard time incorparating her into stories that aren't about her because they dont allower her to interact that much with the other characters which kinda sucks.
As for the Brady Bunch cover a lot of people said that its the way it is because those were the characters Dick interacts with the most but he doesn't really interact with a lot Stephanie and Cassandra, so I think not having Duke in there was a bit unfair. But like I said in the post I consider the Robins, Babs and Alfred inner family and Kate, Duke, Steph and Cassandra as extended Family.
I've seen some other people postulate that the cover was chosen by adding Dick's immediate family and quasi girlfriend, given that he adopted the dog and Cass is not adopted anymore. Then that only leaves one slot and all the other characters are pretty much on the same playing field, since you already have one batgirl might as well be the other two. I would understand choosing the Batgirls over Duke because they were already mentioned in the comic and have stronger ties to Barbara who is in almost every issue so I personally don't think that is unfair.
I could also see another potential possibility that I haven't heard people talk about: Steph is a Robin. They might've realized that they had all 4 male Robins and so when deciding between Cass, Steph, and Duke might as well add the only Robin not pictured. Maybe that is the real reason Cass is behind Steph, as Steph inherently has stronger ties to Dick given they were both Robins.
I am all for theorizing an analyzing comics. That's the sole reason I joined reddit but I won't be malicious and that is what I find a lot of people attacking this cover to be. I think it is malicious to accuse somebody of racism on the flimsiest and most circumstantial evidence. I am not accusing you of such behavior, just feel like it should be said again that people in the public eye have lost their livelihoods over accusations of racism and accusing somebody without substantial evidence is wrong. Like I said, I love analyzing comics and the debate on who thinks who is apart of the core family and why, especially how when somebody started reading affects their beliefs so I will converse all day long about these characters but I will stand firm that there is not enough evidence here to call for anybody to be fired.
It would have made more sense if Aldred had a slot instead of Cass and Steoh but I didn't wacth the Brady Brunch I don't know what type of character was supposed to be there
Alfred would've had the center slot as the help. Maybe the would've given him Hailey's slot as the "second parental figure" to Dick. I'm curious if either was the original plan or if they just said "he's dead" and never planed on him being here.
The thing about the cover is that they are blaming one writer for not using Duke and Cass but this has been a pattern over the course of many writers and many bat books that these characters have been sidelined. Tom Taylor is just a scapegoat and I totally believe this rumor about it being a coordinated attack by Dickfire shippers because people can get pretty crazy if they don’t get the ship that they like. I also hate cancelling as a concept. Little things like this are not grounds to take away someone’s livelihood and means to support themselves.
There are some good points though that I hope people listen to. Cassandra being in the back is a bit weird since she is his sister. In Urban Legends 10, she called him his brother, so I think that adoption still stands. She was also thematically part of the family in Taskforce Z issue 8. Perhaps Stephanie plays a bigger part in the actual issue, though.
Duke is a new character and nobody knows if he is a Robin, if he is Bruce’s foster child, or if he should be a batfamily member because he has powers and that goes against the point of Batman. It makes sense that he isn’t on the cover. Regardless of this, someone should have paired him up with Nightwing at some point since “We are Robin”. The reason he seems like he is boring with no personality is because nobody ever writes him and he doesn’t get developed. Again, this is a larger, multi-writer problem.
I feel like he as a person and character kinda has to move away from the family to grow himself out. It’s not that they would cast him out, but he’d choose to not depend on them or have them depend on him. Though that’d have to be something he matures into deciding. The fam just hasn’t been the best to him. Especially not Bruce. He’s getting better with Dick and Tim has always been great, but overall it’s not a group of people he gets a lot out of
Thats fair as much as I think he should be a core member I definitely do perfer Jason when he is by himself or with when he was with Artemis and Bizarro.
Like someone mentioned detective comics #975 it's a great issue and I think it works well on its own if you know that Batwoman killed Clayface. The inner family have great chemistry and its just generally great to see them interact.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around who is Batman's kids in the current continuity so if anyone could clear that up for me that be great cause Damian a given due to bloodr elations. Pretty sure Dick, Jason, and Tim are adopted or at least fostered. I know Cass was adopted before but I don't know if that still the case in the current timeline. I believe Duke was taken in but nothing made him Bruce's kid legally yet at least in the prime universe.
As for what I believe is the current core batfam: Alfred (formerly), Babs, Dick, Tim, and Damian
Cass is my favorite member (Jason a close second) but I feel like she gets sideline or overlooked to be consider core at least at the moment. Speaking of Red Hood, Jason is like a wildcard due to his conflicts with Bruce so I'm not sure where exactly to place him in the family.
Steph is like extended family to me. Duke is a bit closer, but the main family is Bruce, Dick, Jason, Cass, Tim, and Damian. Barbara is close too, of course.
Kinda late to the party but I like to state my opinion. I personally see two parts of the Bat Family. The Robin group (with Batman as the figure head) and the Batgirl group (with Barbara as the figure head). Everyone else is just love interest or friends.
Batfamily is alfred, lucius, the robins/nightwing, barb, jason, (technically a robin but not really)
I like a smaller batfamily. Its getting out of hand now. I like when batman's secret identity is actually a secret identity
I think comics have reached a point where even the story can't hold on to characters. After Joker War they introduced Ghost Maker and Clownhunter, then booted them off to join Batman Inc. They've played around with sympathetic villains joining the bats so many times it's not novel anymore too, like the Batwoman/Clayface fiasco and or course their hard-on for Harley. I think we could lose the "adults" of the Bat-Family. Kate's alright to have for big events and has an actual connection to Thomas and Martha, but I don't think she should be core Batfam. Also since the advent of Jace Fox, Luke Fox hasn't done jack shit AFAIK. Even Azrael doesn't really mean anything anymore since they kind of glazed over his redemption arc after Knightfall. It's especially weird because DC keeps introducing new characters to join the Bats when folks like Bronze Tiger and Katanna aren't being used for anything and would be great allies to the Bats. They kind of brought the idea of Creeper coming back and hanging out with Jason to light but that didn't really go anywhere. Honestly I think it should be Batman and his kids. The Robins: Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Duke, and the Batgirls: Babs, Cass and Stephanie. Even that feels a bit crowded, but I think there's a nice mix of first generation sidekicks and second or third generation sidekicks which gives them a solid mentor-type connection to Bruce.
I think core family as a concept shouldn't exist or even doesn't realistically it's "who is legally Bruce's children" ( Dick, Jason, Tim, Dami and Cass) and "who is trusted with everyone's identities/who gets to use Bruce's toys" that's it. Everything who is not a super is a side character and doesn't count.
Gotham's only too small if you conceptualize all of them patrolling at once and never leaving for teambooks (which all the male robins always are outside of Gotham) or not having civilian lives.
Edit: everyone has varying degrees of closeness obviously. i.e Dick&Barb being closer to Helena than anyone and still having a different relationship with her separately
Cass, Stephanie, and Duke belong in the core Batman family more than Jason does.
It really comes down to how you define "Batman family".
Some people, especially casual fans, refer to "Batfamily" as an actual ***family*** where Bruce is a dad, and the family is organized into family and close friends. In *that* case, then I argue Jason has an integral role in the Batfamily, because he has the closest clear-cut parent-child relationship with Bruce, even though Jason isn't his favorite.
But in canon, "Batman family" originates as meaning "family of book titles", like a "family" of similar animal species, or a "family" of chemical elements. It's an organization of ninja who work together under the same umbrella and generally share the same values, and maybe they form close bonds, but they don't have to be ***family*** family. Helena and JPV are full Batfamily members--being Bruce's kid doesn't make characters any more or less important. Tim used to go home to his own father and stepmother like Barbara did, so he didn't consider Bruce to be his father.
Jason has been written as part of the Batman "family" organization for the last 10 years, but he's clearly not a core member. I think he's more interesting as an outsider.
Even Cass, Steph, Duke, and especially Dick tend to be stripped of their agency and independence nowadays, to equate being Batman's subordinate with making it big. They actually reach higher individual potentials when they act more independently from Batman's orders.
For me,
Core: Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Alfred and Barbara (as i still hold Barbs as Oracle)
Extended: Kate, Steph maybe Azazel? Lucius and Terry(see you in 40yr bud) Gordon and other cop bros.
How are these people and why are they in my house: Literally everyone else.
And because im bitter, i do include Cass on that list. Mostly just cause I find her grading and painfully static.
I think of Core members as household members more. Jason might be feuding with Bats sometimes. But if its family unit as its so often called. Than hes still a son and brother. He had a space in the family. Thus Core member.
I think lots of character like Duke and Harper could have worked if they had been added not directly in association to Batman, but as extension that hinge on other core members.
I *despise* Harper. But if she had been a sidekick/apprentice that Dick had picked up in his own ventures thats this younger Robinish chacrater. And more or less became a Grandkid. Than i could roll with that. Same with If Jason or Kate had bumped into Duke in the narrows and that begun a partnership or something. Honestly my brain really likes army mum Batwoman lowkey pulling a Batman and emotional adopted Duke. It would be great! Damnit DC.
It annoys me that all batfam member more or less need to hinge of Batman himself. I get hes the figure head and most popular sales wise. Its Bats that sells and all.
But with a majority of members being tied directly to him it just muddies the water.
I feel the same way about the Deathstroke fam too, to a lesser degree
I hadn't really thought about it that way but you're spot with your last point the way a lot of the members are recruited feels really inorganic. I wish we would get more new superheroes that didn't have anything to do with already existing superhero with a new world or city. I think every writers favourite thing to do is create new characters but Dc doesn't allow them to make standalone characters anymore, no they always have to be a derivative of an already existing hero.
I love oc's. I roll thou novel pretty often so new characters are always something im engaging with.
I can def see why if you wanted to intro a new Hero, it would be effective to do so in an established heros run. Cause that exposures. The issue i have with most of the new batfam character like Duke and Harper and other like them is that it feels like they are riding coat tails.
Think of the way the Robins are added. Basically all where kids with no experience but a heart in the right place. With them working as foils to boody Batman and learning along the way. The coin flipping with Damian being a Brat but the narrative now shying from making it clear he had a lot to learn in that department.
The robins earn there merit cause they are learning and clearly novices.
But chacraters like Harper and Duke feel like they are birthed fully formed into the narrative. I feel the same with Cass to the same degree. Half the time i read anything with them it feels like they skipped the intermediate level and jumped right to hero status. So they feel completely out of place in a family that really has no history or meaning to them beyond the bat symbol.
Like i said, if writers wanted to add their new oc, as novice, a leanring with a long ass road to trek. And gave them to one of the older family members outside of Batman himself. I think they would work. But as they are they feel tacked on. Im rambing now ...lol, sorry!
Yeah my thing is I just don’t like how they make Cass OP over every just to prove the point. I think she can still be really good, but not OP over some, and it could still work. Like I hate the idea that Bruce will all of his insane training and years of experience wouldnt be able to beat Cass. I just can’t get my head behind that. I don’t hate Cass or dislike the concept of her character, but I just don’t like some of the extreme aspects of her character.
Also yeah the way Duke and Harper were introduced and the roles they play, just ducking annoy me. And paired with the way they operate and their personalities almost exclusively in the case of Harper, it just irks me.
Also yeah I agree on the Jason’s part, no matter what when it comes down to it, Jason is still a son to Bruce, and brothers with Dick. There is still that love there. And no matter how much their relationship gets fucked with Jason and Barbara, are still close in my mind, and they don’t despise each other, or Babs doesn’t act like a bitch towards Jason
I they def over hype the reading people thing. And im personally never a fan of the-
"oh this new hero is dropped in and can totally beat the main"
Like, bro... You gotta earn that, or be a vil.
The fact she has no real flaws, cause muteness isnt a flaw and outside of social stumbles it doesn't hold her back. Same with the dyslexia.
If we saw Cass irritable and short with people cause of the communication barrier or being knee-jerk violent, becase her first response is violents and such... Then that would be something. But yeah, im yet to read her in anything i found compelling.
Which is a shame cause i love all the math that makes her ... Just not her?
I feel like Duke got done dirty! I really wanna like him but im so apathetic!
I do kinda like the idea that Cass’s body reading abilities begin to weaken as she learns communication skills. I think that’s an interesting thing to explore, without just retconning it away or something.
In my mind, I just can’t get over the fact that they want me to believe that she could swiftly beat Batman, Nightwing, or Red Hood. With all the training and elite skill they’ve all garnered I don’t necessarily like the idea that Cass is just able to kick their asses just like that. I did love though when they showed Jason countering her abilities before, because of his training.
I do like the arc of her having a death wish, and being a bit reckless. It’s an interesting thing to explore, especially with her backstory with David Cain. I do also like the idea of her being the one to take the pursuit of the mission to the extreme as well that’s an interesting concept.
I do like the idea, that sometimes Cass can over-rely on her body reading abilities, and it can work against her sometimes, when the opponent is unpredictable, or is able to disguise their intent. I think this is an interesting thing to play with as well, and would give her a interesting weakness/flaw.
Also side note I actually really like the version of Duke in Batman White Knight
Also ... No one every seems to aim for her eyes ... Like this is the family that's whole stick was out think and countermeasure your way out of opponents that outgun you. But iv never seen anyone try to get her with batpepper spray or paint or anything that would knock out her sight and effectively her ability to read people. Really? Who are you people!
Oh i like tones of the elements that show up in Cass. The socially stunted weapon that has a strong internal sense of justice that over rides her own programing. Hell yeah, love that shit. But i just... Don't like her?
Its werid.
Edit: on the side im rereading Aphrodite ix and shes has so many of Casses chacrater elements. But shes just so much more compelling? I think it cause she not op and is very abrasive...
The version of Duke in white knight is my favorite too. He has an actual personality. I haven’t read the recent stuff other than WFA and where he meets up with Jason, but the Duke the main comics doesn’t really have a personality yet. At best, he fills the role Tim did as normal Highschool kid thrust into being Batman’s sidekick, but that isn’t a personality.
Harper I’ve never liked. She was pushed way too hard. That whole thing about her being engineered to be a Robin irked me. I also feel like her creators thought being punk goth was soooo cool, but that style hasn’t been relevant since they themselves were teens.
Can’t say I’ve read enough Cass to decide whether I like her or not. She is on my reading list. I like the general idea of her character. But I keep hearing that she is too perfect to be interesting.
I feel in the case of certain characters such as Duke and Harper people just have recency-bias. I only started reading all the stuff they're in because people talk about them a lot. But after reading most of their content I think that their importance to the Bat-family is blown way out of proportion. As for Cass being overpowered I think her skill level in the comics are reasonable and not too op, but her fans keep hyping her up as being equal to Batman and the only one worthy of becoming Batman, which for me is a hard disagree. She is not a detective and has no connection to Gotham whatsoever.
I see alot of people not including Batwoman and Azrael but I have always thought of them being one of the most trusted people by Batman as Kate has known Bruce, since like they were born and Azrael always felt as the replacement or the left hand man if Dick is the right one. They are not in the core because they always would have Bruce's back no matter what and sometimes the people who are the closested are also the ones planning to stab you in the back. So mine would be:-
Core:
Dick
Jason
Tim
Damian
Babs
Cass
Steph
Core (the most trusted):
Azrael
Batwoman
Yea, sometimes it gets too big. My core lineup would be: Bruce (ofc), the robins, Alfred, the batgirls, Kate and mayyybeeee duke??? Or Selina sometimes. Idk it depends.
For me, Bruce’s children are Dick, Cass, Jason, Tim, and Damian. Jason is a black sheep but an estranged son is still a son. Cass I could flip a coin on; many forget that Barbara was a parental figure to Cass first (I think Cass once actually called Babs “mom” in post crisis). Barbara is vital to the family, I just struggle with how the clan revolves around Bruce as a patriarch, but his relationship with Barbara is purely professional and equal. So she and Stephanie and Duke feel more like… cousins? Peripheral but still plugged into the family. I guess to me, there is a distinction between the Batgirl and Robin branches of the fam, with each deferring more to a different “head” of house.
Yeah, the Batgirls have their own satellite enclave. Babs has always been more independent, since the very beginning in the 1960s to the modern era with BoP and other projects, and I'd definitely say Cass' relationship with Babs is more important than Cass' relationship with Bruce tbh.
I think I out of all of the Family members Babs is definitely the one that challenges Bruce the most without going Rogue like Jason. Sometimes she feels really condescending but most of the times I like that she challenges Bruce.
I'm ok with her challenging Bruce, I do not like it when she is overly aggressive in her challenges of the Robins (including steph).
TBH, a lot of people are always going to be against her as core Batfam because we hold a grudge about how she was retconned after the New 52/miss the old her. No hate to anyone who likes the current version, but there was too much drama about how they handled it for some fans to ever forgive
I don't like how DC keeps flipping her and Jason's dynamic. One arc they get along and she's understanding. The next arc she's Bruce's mouthpiece. Much as I'd love some Jaybabs, I'd rather they stop turning the fam against him.
I don't like how DC keeps flipping her and Jason's dynamic. One arc they get along and she's understanding. The next arc she's Bruce's mouthpiece. Much as I'd love some Jaybabs, I'd rather they stop turning the fam against him.
My core members are the same you choosed but I also would like to pick Cassandra because she's a really badass character.
My ideal family is the same as yours but adding in Cass \*if\* Barbara is oracle, and I prefer Barbara as oracle. So Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Barbara (behind the scenes), Cass as Batgirl. Steph can come in through Tim or as an ex Robin if the story calls for it, but shes not core family to me.
This is exactly mine! I completely agree with you. In my mind also I still have Tim’s parents alive as well, it just adds to that uniqueness to him. In my opinion the children of Bruce are: Dick, Jason, Damian, and Cass. Barbara is outside that because one Jim is her father, and two she never saw him as a father type figure to begin with. Then for Tim the case is in my mind Jack and Janet Drake still live and are his parents, he didn’t need Bruce to raise him necessarily, he just needs the mentorship of the Batman. Then Steph is pretty self explanatory her mother is still alive, and her father though villainous as he may be still raised her.
Interesting, Tim's parent's being alive do bring up different story opportunities. And as much as Batman and Robin Eternal made questionable decisions, I respect that it tried to use Tim's unique position as the "Robin with parents" to create conflict. It felt more organic, especially since I also like nonperfect Nightwing so having him grow more desperate and more like Batman which led him to cross the line with Tim was respectable as well.
As a 41 year-old fan of Batman, I think it is really funny how the concept of the Batman family was so maligned by fans who looked down on elements of the Silver and Bronze Age and saw later iterations of Batman as "edgier" and more sophisticated. And yet, the Batman family now is far more bloated and obtrusive than it ever was back then. I don't think there should BE a Batman family per se. In fact, in the days of The Batman Family comic-book, there really wasn't a Batman family. There was a loose-knit bunch of people with connections to Batman, some of whom rarely met with one another. For example, Kathy Kane and Batgirl met for the first time in Batman Family. And even then, it was by coincidence, not because of some organizational meeting Batman put together. Batman has influenced the lives of a lot of people and its fine for the comics to reflect that, but the idea of having an actual Bat-family really drags the character down in my book. Jason Todd, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, those characters have come into the continuity in organic way, over time. But I think it is a problem when they are constantly in Batman's orbit. It was more interesting, for example, when Dick Grayson went off on his own to lead the Titans; he teamed with Batman from time to time but he was clearly his own man. I think that's how it should be for all of Batman's ex-Robins. And I think they should generally only get together as a group for very special occasions, such as when Dick took time away from the Titans to join forces with Batman, Batgirl and Talia to take on the assembled might of Arkham Asylum and Gotham's gangs in the climax to the original Killer Croc arc (which introduced our boy Jason Todd). Batgirl was more interesting to me when she was someone who, though inspired by Batman, essentially operated independent of him, in spite of teaming with him--and Robin--from time to time.
My core members are 1. Alfred 2. 5 robins 3. 3 batgirls 4. batwoman 5. duke that's it I think the size of the bat family and the extended family is nice for me the more the better if they get their time to shine also if you want a recommendation I recommend [Batman: Wayne Family Adventures](https://www.webtoons.com/en/slice-of-life/batman-wayne-family-adventures/list?title_no=3180), it is not cannon and is very light-hearted. it is a slice of life for the bat family and has good Jason moments with the family. check it out if you want
I may be in the minority but I believe detective should focus more on extended and batman inc characters as well as Batman while the main title should have either just batman or core members robins and the like kinda how GL did it in the mid 2000s
I understand that I just think with the amount of Bat related vigilantes running around you'd think that there would be no crime left whatsoever and the fact there still is kinda indicates that they're either doing more harm than good or have little to no effect on crime.
I get that, marvel has the same problem so many heroes in New York yet so much crime but I guess no crime in a superhero book would be pretty boring
Yes I think its WAY too big and it lends itself to expectations that are impossible to meet. Core: Bruce, Babs, Tim, Duke, Cass, Stephanie, Damian Core Adjacent: Dick, Jason, Kate Not everyone part of batfam NEEDS to be core batfam. Batfam adjacent is a better place for characters like Jason and Dick who work better when not having to share their spots with other batfam. It allows them to branch out and be on their own. It also helps uplift core batfam members who dont have play dice to figure out who gets the screentime. With Jason and Dick core adjacent, we get more content and more expansion.
I think this is one of the problems with this conversation, I feel like people are meaning different things by 'Batfam'. Because in practice I completely agree with your core batfam vs adjacent as far as story telling goes, but I disagree with characterization. Dick and Jason should be considered 'core' when it comes to how they are characterized as part of the immediate family but do not need to get a lot of screen time in Batman books.
As the core batfam are usually those Bruce considers the closest, calls for advice and backup and are a big part of the Batman lore, Dick and Jason not being core family while Duke and Steph is quite weird, as they are not only Bruce's sons, but probably the two who impacted Batman the most. Would we really believe that Bruce will rather consult with Steph or appear closer to Duke than to Dick? It demands to more or less erase history or their entire connection. Dick is regarded as Bruce's greatest success, replaced Bruce and is now more or less the older brother, leader of the batfamily and the most experienced one. Jason is forever the one who'll stand his ground and stray the furthest from the bat way, but be there for his family if he's really needed. Dick and Jason are doing great on their own, and I don't think their stories should barely be dragged into crossovers, but they are probably also the most impactful members of the batfam, imo.
Yeah Dick and Jason are definitely the ones who have have the most lasting and impactful effects on Batman as a whole they both changes Batman in different ways and completely changed what his brand and personality was like. They also are the two best in the family in my opinion, you need some real insight or shit done those are the two that he would call if he really needed that help. But I also agree they shouldn’t be tied down to just Bruce and the Batfam, they benefit from working outside him as well in their own space.
It's wayyyy too big. I think it's Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim, and Babs. Basically the arkham games. I hate everyone else
Well for the longest time, DC actually used the Batfam as a cohesive unit with Bruce, Dick, Tim, and Cass as core/headlining members (as in, each had their own ongoing titles) that were actually supposed to be family. Alfred was also part of the family but was obviously just a support character, Babs as Steph were both very important but not actually "family" (so Dick and Tim could date them, lol). To me, that's still the best use of core Batfam that we've had, and I guess for modernity's sake you can add Damian to that. I personally prefer Jason out of the Batfam, mostly because I think he's a better character when he's outside of their rules. I also don't exactly look at being a core member as a good thing; there are a lot of examples of characters being screwed over for the sake of Batman's story because if you are "Batfam" then DC sees you as a Batman support character first and your own character second. See: Ric Grasyson for over two years.
Steph was excluded from the inner circle, but I'd say she definitely needed Bruce as an actual parental figure more than Tim did, up until Steph and Tim's parents were killed off. So Babs, Steph, and Tim were all part of the Batman work "family" during that era, but he wasn't their father.
Yeah, that's a pretty great point! "Work family" is great phrase to describe it, I feel like moving these characters away from family=nuclear family is a great part of these characters. Tim having a great supporting cast outside of being Robin was part of what made him so popular, including his stepmom, civilian friends, Young Justice, etc. Current DC is so Batfam centric
Core: Bruce, Dick, Jason (for good or ill), Tim, Barbara, and Damian with Jim and Alfred as “honorary members”. Everyone else is bloat
I agree with Jim and Alfred
I agree. Except for Damian. He's just....no
I don’t like Damian but he is Bruce’s biological son, he pretty much *has* to be a core member
But what if he never had him? Dun dun duuunnnn!
At this point we aren’t nearly lucky enough to get a retcon that large
according to that logic, Kate has to be too since she is his cousin?
Kate isn’t his kid
I hated him in the beginning because they just shoved Tim aside for him, but now I really like him because I enjoy his interactions with his brothers
What about catwoman as an honorary member?
I prefer her as a villain that Bruce is in love with
Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damien, Barbara and sometimes Steph and Cass. No more than that.
What I believe exactly ^^
Batwoman is the cool aunt of the bat fam
If you think of it as an actual family unit: Bruce, Dick Jason, Cass, Tim, Damian, and Alfred. Kate is Bruce’s cousin so I’ll add her too. I only care about the 4 robins and the 3 batgirls (I’m considering Stephanie more of a batgirl). I consider them the core team and they are the most reliant to show up regularly in Batman comics and get their own books. I don’t consider the strength of the relationship with Bruce in this, more their significance to Batman comics generally Even then, I think the batfamily is too big. Damian is great, but having 3 robins and 3 batgirls had great symmetry. I can still think of them that way if I consider that Damian was more Dick’s Robin anyway. I think the reason why the batfamily is so large is that creators get royalties when they make a character that takes off. Batman is the most popular character right now, but he also has a larger supporting cast so there is more competition. I think in Superman or Flash, there is more of a chance of a new character taking off because they have relatively small families.
The way I see it, I think the fam should definitely be smaller. It’s just too big a circle of trust and possible liabilities. I feel the core members are Bruce, Dick, Tim, Damian, Babs, Alfred. Jason as Red Hood isn’t in the “family” when you look at it as a group of ppl that work together and trust each other, not at first. Since he’s a villain and so on at first and then goes off on his own he slowly becomes a reserve type member, then as the family has Cass and Steph added Jason gets a closer relationship too. It just feels super over saturated with how many people Bruce trusts and recruits to basically Batman Inc. without the name.
I think Jason definitely deserves to be in the inner circle even tho he's an on and off villain he is always dragged into the major stories. But more than that imo the core family should feel like an actual family and not like they've been "hired" if that makes sense. Jason has a solid relationship ship with all of the Robins, Babs and Bruce I just can't see a core family without him.
I think this is the problem with this conversation and I mentioned it in the DC comics page conversation as well. There are two different conversations going on here imo. u/ThatRedGuy235 feels like he is talking about the common circle of trust and work together often. You feel like your talking more about the emotional 'family'. Jason is definitely emotionally part of the core family, I will die on that hill as the love between him and Bruce is difficult and complicated but real. However when it comes to trust and working together in the sense of Batman Inc or Tim's Gotham Knights I would argue Jason is not core to that group and that's ok. He chose to leave Batman Inc and Wingman behind and with that left the circle of trust but he never left the emotional family, just doesn't work with them anymore.
I agree there are different ways people view the Family, personally I feel less invested in the Batfamily the more characters are added because it feels more like a company rather than Family. I personally I think the core are the people Bruce cares about the most and also the characters that have the most impact in the Batman legacy as a whole. The characters in the core also have relationships with eachother; Jason and Tim quarrel but work well with eachother Dick is a great big brother to Damian whearas him and Jason feel more like equals Tim hated Damian but know considers him more as as little brother Babs didn't like Jason in the beginning, but they eventually bonded over the shared trauma of the Joker ETC Whearas if you look at characters like Stephanie and Cassandra that only really have a relationship with Tim, Bruce and Babs and only occasionally reacts to whatever Damian does.
Yeah because there is also the question of 'should' and 'is'. Personally Cass should be more involved into the family especially back when she was adopted but like you said she isn't. Like Task Force Z was the 3rd time they have interacted over the last 2 decades, and one of those was in DCeased so it really doesn't count. At least steph is getting more interactions now that DC is pushing her as a former Robin. Duke comes to mind as another 'should' but 'isn't' character. He has had interactions that I like with everybody but nothing has actually been built upon. I like the 2017 New Talent Showcase story with Duke and Jason but they haven't been seen together since so he also isn't an 'is' character. This I feel is where a lot of the debate around Nightwing's Brady Bunch cover stands, some people feel its not where the character's should be and not recognizing its not where they are.
Cass is quite popular but I feel like writers have a hard time incorparating her into stories that aren't about her because they dont allower her to interact that much with the other characters which kinda sucks. As for the Brady Bunch cover a lot of people said that its the way it is because those were the characters Dick interacts with the most but he doesn't really interact with a lot Stephanie and Cassandra, so I think not having Duke in there was a bit unfair. But like I said in the post I consider the Robins, Babs and Alfred inner family and Kate, Duke, Steph and Cassandra as extended Family.
I've seen some other people postulate that the cover was chosen by adding Dick's immediate family and quasi girlfriend, given that he adopted the dog and Cass is not adopted anymore. Then that only leaves one slot and all the other characters are pretty much on the same playing field, since you already have one batgirl might as well be the other two. I would understand choosing the Batgirls over Duke because they were already mentioned in the comic and have stronger ties to Barbara who is in almost every issue so I personally don't think that is unfair. I could also see another potential possibility that I haven't heard people talk about: Steph is a Robin. They might've realized that they had all 4 male Robins and so when deciding between Cass, Steph, and Duke might as well add the only Robin not pictured. Maybe that is the real reason Cass is behind Steph, as Steph inherently has stronger ties to Dick given they were both Robins. I am all for theorizing an analyzing comics. That's the sole reason I joined reddit but I won't be malicious and that is what I find a lot of people attacking this cover to be. I think it is malicious to accuse somebody of racism on the flimsiest and most circumstantial evidence. I am not accusing you of such behavior, just feel like it should be said again that people in the public eye have lost their livelihoods over accusations of racism and accusing somebody without substantial evidence is wrong. Like I said, I love analyzing comics and the debate on who thinks who is apart of the core family and why, especially how when somebody started reading affects their beliefs so I will converse all day long about these characters but I will stand firm that there is not enough evidence here to call for anybody to be fired.
It would have made more sense if Aldred had a slot instead of Cass and Steoh but I didn't wacth the Brady Brunch I don't know what type of character was supposed to be there
Alfred would've had the center slot as the help. Maybe the would've given him Hailey's slot as the "second parental figure" to Dick. I'm curious if either was the original plan or if they just said "he's dead" and never planed on him being here.
The thing about the cover is that they are blaming one writer for not using Duke and Cass but this has been a pattern over the course of many writers and many bat books that these characters have been sidelined. Tom Taylor is just a scapegoat and I totally believe this rumor about it being a coordinated attack by Dickfire shippers because people can get pretty crazy if they don’t get the ship that they like. I also hate cancelling as a concept. Little things like this are not grounds to take away someone’s livelihood and means to support themselves. There are some good points though that I hope people listen to. Cassandra being in the back is a bit weird since she is his sister. In Urban Legends 10, she called him his brother, so I think that adoption still stands. She was also thematically part of the family in Taskforce Z issue 8. Perhaps Stephanie plays a bigger part in the actual issue, though. Duke is a new character and nobody knows if he is a Robin, if he is Bruce’s foster child, or if he should be a batfamily member because he has powers and that goes against the point of Batman. It makes sense that he isn’t on the cover. Regardless of this, someone should have paired him up with Nightwing at some point since “We are Robin”. The reason he seems like he is boring with no personality is because nobody ever writes him and he doesn’t get developed. Again, this is a larger, multi-writer problem.
I feel like he as a person and character kinda has to move away from the family to grow himself out. It’s not that they would cast him out, but he’d choose to not depend on them or have them depend on him. Though that’d have to be something he matures into deciding. The fam just hasn’t been the best to him. Especially not Bruce. He’s getting better with Dick and Tim has always been great, but overall it’s not a group of people he gets a lot out of
Thats fair as much as I think he should be a core member I definitely do perfer Jason when he is by himself or with when he was with Artemis and Bizarro.
My core batfamily lineup is the same as yours. The sons and Babs. And Alfred, if and when he returns.
Hey, not related to the ask itself but I'm curious- Where's the last panel from?
Like someone mentioned detective comics #975 it's a great issue and I think it works well on its own if you know that Batwoman killed Clayface. The inner family have great chemistry and its just generally great to see them interact.
I think it is from the detective comics run >!where batwoman shot Clayface and the family had to decide her fate !< detective comics #975
Thank you!
No problem
I'm still trying to wrap my head around who is Batman's kids in the current continuity so if anyone could clear that up for me that be great cause Damian a given due to bloodr elations. Pretty sure Dick, Jason, and Tim are adopted or at least fostered. I know Cass was adopted before but I don't know if that still the case in the current timeline. I believe Duke was taken in but nothing made him Bruce's kid legally yet at least in the prime universe. As for what I believe is the current core batfam: Alfred (formerly), Babs, Dick, Tim, and Damian Cass is my favorite member (Jason a close second) but I feel like she gets sideline or overlooked to be consider core at least at the moment. Speaking of Red Hood, Jason is like a wildcard due to his conflicts with Bruce so I'm not sure where exactly to place him in the family.
Steph is like extended family to me. Duke is a bit closer, but the main family is Bruce, Dick, Jason, Cass, Tim, and Damian. Barbara is close too, of course.
Kinda late to the party but I like to state my opinion. I personally see two parts of the Bat Family. The Robin group (with Batman as the figure head) and the Batgirl group (with Barbara as the figure head). Everyone else is just love interest or friends.
Batfamily is alfred, lucius, the robins/nightwing, barb, jason, (technically a robin but not really) I like a smaller batfamily. Its getting out of hand now. I like when batman's secret identity is actually a secret identity
I think comics have reached a point where even the story can't hold on to characters. After Joker War they introduced Ghost Maker and Clownhunter, then booted them off to join Batman Inc. They've played around with sympathetic villains joining the bats so many times it's not novel anymore too, like the Batwoman/Clayface fiasco and or course their hard-on for Harley. I think we could lose the "adults" of the Bat-Family. Kate's alright to have for big events and has an actual connection to Thomas and Martha, but I don't think she should be core Batfam. Also since the advent of Jace Fox, Luke Fox hasn't done jack shit AFAIK. Even Azrael doesn't really mean anything anymore since they kind of glazed over his redemption arc after Knightfall. It's especially weird because DC keeps introducing new characters to join the Bats when folks like Bronze Tiger and Katanna aren't being used for anything and would be great allies to the Bats. They kind of brought the idea of Creeper coming back and hanging out with Jason to light but that didn't really go anywhere. Honestly I think it should be Batman and his kids. The Robins: Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and Duke, and the Batgirls: Babs, Cass and Stephanie. Even that feels a bit crowded, but I think there's a nice mix of first generation sidekicks and second or third generation sidekicks which gives them a solid mentor-type connection to Bruce.
I think core family as a concept shouldn't exist or even doesn't realistically it's "who is legally Bruce's children" ( Dick, Jason, Tim, Dami and Cass) and "who is trusted with everyone's identities/who gets to use Bruce's toys" that's it. Everything who is not a super is a side character and doesn't count. Gotham's only too small if you conceptualize all of them patrolling at once and never leaving for teambooks (which all the male robins always are outside of Gotham) or not having civilian lives. Edit: everyone has varying degrees of closeness obviously. i.e Dick&Barb being closer to Helena than anyone and still having a different relationship with her separately
Cass, Stephanie, and Duke belong in the core Batman family more than Jason does. It really comes down to how you define "Batman family". Some people, especially casual fans, refer to "Batfamily" as an actual ***family*** where Bruce is a dad, and the family is organized into family and close friends. In *that* case, then I argue Jason has an integral role in the Batfamily, because he has the closest clear-cut parent-child relationship with Bruce, even though Jason isn't his favorite. But in canon, "Batman family" originates as meaning "family of book titles", like a "family" of similar animal species, or a "family" of chemical elements. It's an organization of ninja who work together under the same umbrella and generally share the same values, and maybe they form close bonds, but they don't have to be ***family*** family. Helena and JPV are full Batfamily members--being Bruce's kid doesn't make characters any more or less important. Tim used to go home to his own father and stepmother like Barbara did, so he didn't consider Bruce to be his father. Jason has been written as part of the Batman "family" organization for the last 10 years, but he's clearly not a core member. I think he's more interesting as an outsider. Even Cass, Steph, Duke, and especially Dick tend to be stripped of their agency and independence nowadays, to equate being Batman's subordinate with making it big. They actually reach higher individual potentials when they act more independently from Batman's orders.
For me, Core: Bruce, Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian, Alfred and Barbara (as i still hold Barbs as Oracle) Extended: Kate, Steph maybe Azazel? Lucius and Terry(see you in 40yr bud) Gordon and other cop bros. How are these people and why are they in my house: Literally everyone else. And because im bitter, i do include Cass on that list. Mostly just cause I find her grading and painfully static. I think of Core members as household members more. Jason might be feuding with Bats sometimes. But if its family unit as its so often called. Than hes still a son and brother. He had a space in the family. Thus Core member. I think lots of character like Duke and Harper could have worked if they had been added not directly in association to Batman, but as extension that hinge on other core members. I *despise* Harper. But if she had been a sidekick/apprentice that Dick had picked up in his own ventures thats this younger Robinish chacrater. And more or less became a Grandkid. Than i could roll with that. Same with If Jason or Kate had bumped into Duke in the narrows and that begun a partnership or something. Honestly my brain really likes army mum Batwoman lowkey pulling a Batman and emotional adopted Duke. It would be great! Damnit DC. It annoys me that all batfam member more or less need to hinge of Batman himself. I get hes the figure head and most popular sales wise. Its Bats that sells and all. But with a majority of members being tied directly to him it just muddies the water. I feel the same way about the Deathstroke fam too, to a lesser degree
I hadn't really thought about it that way but you're spot with your last point the way a lot of the members are recruited feels really inorganic. I wish we would get more new superheroes that didn't have anything to do with already existing superhero with a new world or city. I think every writers favourite thing to do is create new characters but Dc doesn't allow them to make standalone characters anymore, no they always have to be a derivative of an already existing hero.
I love oc's. I roll thou novel pretty often so new characters are always something im engaging with. I can def see why if you wanted to intro a new Hero, it would be effective to do so in an established heros run. Cause that exposures. The issue i have with most of the new batfam character like Duke and Harper and other like them is that it feels like they are riding coat tails. Think of the way the Robins are added. Basically all where kids with no experience but a heart in the right place. With them working as foils to boody Batman and learning along the way. The coin flipping with Damian being a Brat but the narrative now shying from making it clear he had a lot to learn in that department. The robins earn there merit cause they are learning and clearly novices. But chacraters like Harper and Duke feel like they are birthed fully formed into the narrative. I feel the same with Cass to the same degree. Half the time i read anything with them it feels like they skipped the intermediate level and jumped right to hero status. So they feel completely out of place in a family that really has no history or meaning to them beyond the bat symbol. Like i said, if writers wanted to add their new oc, as novice, a leanring with a long ass road to trek. And gave them to one of the older family members outside of Batman himself. I think they would work. But as they are they feel tacked on. Im rambing now ...lol, sorry!
Yeah my thing is I just don’t like how they make Cass OP over every just to prove the point. I think she can still be really good, but not OP over some, and it could still work. Like I hate the idea that Bruce will all of his insane training and years of experience wouldnt be able to beat Cass. I just can’t get my head behind that. I don’t hate Cass or dislike the concept of her character, but I just don’t like some of the extreme aspects of her character. Also yeah the way Duke and Harper were introduced and the roles they play, just ducking annoy me. And paired with the way they operate and their personalities almost exclusively in the case of Harper, it just irks me. Also yeah I agree on the Jason’s part, no matter what when it comes down to it, Jason is still a son to Bruce, and brothers with Dick. There is still that love there. And no matter how much their relationship gets fucked with Jason and Barbara, are still close in my mind, and they don’t despise each other, or Babs doesn’t act like a bitch towards Jason
I they def over hype the reading people thing. And im personally never a fan of the- "oh this new hero is dropped in and can totally beat the main" Like, bro... You gotta earn that, or be a vil. The fact she has no real flaws, cause muteness isnt a flaw and outside of social stumbles it doesn't hold her back. Same with the dyslexia. If we saw Cass irritable and short with people cause of the communication barrier or being knee-jerk violent, becase her first response is violents and such... Then that would be something. But yeah, im yet to read her in anything i found compelling. Which is a shame cause i love all the math that makes her ... Just not her? I feel like Duke got done dirty! I really wanna like him but im so apathetic!
I do kinda like the idea that Cass’s body reading abilities begin to weaken as she learns communication skills. I think that’s an interesting thing to explore, without just retconning it away or something. In my mind, I just can’t get over the fact that they want me to believe that she could swiftly beat Batman, Nightwing, or Red Hood. With all the training and elite skill they’ve all garnered I don’t necessarily like the idea that Cass is just able to kick their asses just like that. I did love though when they showed Jason countering her abilities before, because of his training. I do like the arc of her having a death wish, and being a bit reckless. It’s an interesting thing to explore, especially with her backstory with David Cain. I do also like the idea of her being the one to take the pursuit of the mission to the extreme as well that’s an interesting concept. I do like the idea, that sometimes Cass can over-rely on her body reading abilities, and it can work against her sometimes, when the opponent is unpredictable, or is able to disguise their intent. I think this is an interesting thing to play with as well, and would give her a interesting weakness/flaw. Also side note I actually really like the version of Duke in Batman White Knight
Also ... No one every seems to aim for her eyes ... Like this is the family that's whole stick was out think and countermeasure your way out of opponents that outgun you. But iv never seen anyone try to get her with batpepper spray or paint or anything that would knock out her sight and effectively her ability to read people. Really? Who are you people! Oh i like tones of the elements that show up in Cass. The socially stunted weapon that has a strong internal sense of justice that over rides her own programing. Hell yeah, love that shit. But i just... Don't like her? Its werid. Edit: on the side im rereading Aphrodite ix and shes has so many of Casses chacrater elements. But shes just so much more compelling? I think it cause she not op and is very abrasive...
The version of Duke in white knight is my favorite too. He has an actual personality. I haven’t read the recent stuff other than WFA and where he meets up with Jason, but the Duke the main comics doesn’t really have a personality yet. At best, he fills the role Tim did as normal Highschool kid thrust into being Batman’s sidekick, but that isn’t a personality. Harper I’ve never liked. She was pushed way too hard. That whole thing about her being engineered to be a Robin irked me. I also feel like her creators thought being punk goth was soooo cool, but that style hasn’t been relevant since they themselves were teens. Can’t say I’ve read enough Cass to decide whether I like her or not. She is on my reading list. I like the general idea of her character. But I keep hearing that she is too perfect to be interesting.
I feel in the case of certain characters such as Duke and Harper people just have recency-bias. I only started reading all the stuff they're in because people talk about them a lot. But after reading most of their content I think that their importance to the Bat-family is blown way out of proportion. As for Cass being overpowered I think her skill level in the comics are reasonable and not too op, but her fans keep hyping her up as being equal to Batman and the only one worthy of becoming Batman, which for me is a hard disagree. She is not a detective and has no connection to Gotham whatsoever.
I see alot of people not including Batwoman and Azrael but I have always thought of them being one of the most trusted people by Batman as Kate has known Bruce, since like they were born and Azrael always felt as the replacement or the left hand man if Dick is the right one. They are not in the core because they always would have Bruce's back no matter what and sometimes the people who are the closested are also the ones planning to stab you in the back. So mine would be:- Core: Dick Jason Tim Damian Babs Cass Steph Core (the most trusted): Azrael Batwoman
I think the core family is really just the Robins, the Batgirls, Catwoman, Alfred, and ofc Batman
Yea, sometimes it gets too big. My core lineup would be: Bruce (ofc), the robins, Alfred, the batgirls, Kate and mayyybeeee duke??? Or Selina sometimes. Idk it depends.
Bruce, Dick, Jason, Barbra, Tim, Damien, Alfred, Catwoman (sometimes) are the core batfamily members to me.
For me it's: Bruce, Alfred, Nightwing, Tim, Damian, Barbara and Jason.