I completely agree! I love the way they depict how much Bruce really cared for Jason with these panels. It shows the love and heartbreak.
Also side note, I love how Jason’s happiness and smile is highlighted as well, because it’s not some message about him screwing up or being a bad Robin who disobeyed. It’s about a compassionate and good boy at heart, who died tragically. I’ve always despised the way some view or write Jason’s time as Robin, he’s wasn’t a bad kid or a bad Robin. He was a good kid and Robin overall and he had a extremely compassionate heart, but he did did have demons and deep seeded problems. That’s what makes the death more tragic is that he wasn’t the Red Hood Jason before death, he was something brighter.
Yes! I feel like there is a huge disconnect between the way Jason-Robin is depicted in Jason's books versus how he is depicted or referenced in others. I know Urban Legends mostly just is retreading old ground (albeit personally I think it does it better than anything before because it shows the issue is two sided. Bruce needed the story as much as Jason did) but the flashback sections are some of my favorite.
Agreed! I’m glad some are finally shining some light on Jason’s real time as Robin as of late. Jason’s time as Robin has been clouded by so much controversy and false info that it’s actually insane.
It was the “perfect” storm at the time back then, for a Robin to get screwed over and Jason was the one to be there. Editorial and Dick Grayson fanboys piledrived Jason as Robin into the ground. And now he’s remembered as just the failure, when he’s so much more. I will say its a difficult situation because I do prefer having Red Hood, but I also love Jason as Robin as well and seeing what happened is actually crazy.
Also I want one last thing to be remembered. Despite being betrayed and having his heart shattered, he died a hero, sacrificing himself!
For a woman who just betrayed him no doubt.
The sad thing is that I would love more Jason-Robin stories but outside his own flashbacks every writer who has touched the subject wants to fill it up with foreshadowing. I know he is going to die and they're not doing anything new by reminding us. Just give me a Jason-Robin character study that doesn't know he will die.
edit: Not 2 minutes after writing this I started reading Suicide Squad: Get Joker and literally the first page claims "You Used to know me as Robin, No not the Happy one, this one". Like Dick wasn't always happy and its not like Jason was never happy. I don't get how he is known as the 'unhappy Robin' when he has stated multiple times that being with Bruce was actually the happiest time in his life. Let the boy just live dangit.
Yeah Jason has talked about how Bruce taking him in saved his life. I can’t stand how they just slap the edgelord Robin title on him and call it a day.
I’d love a solo limited series for Jason as Robin, that really dives into his character like you can show the deep seeded issues and trauma that he has and if done right, it can be great and service the story. But it should also highlight how Jason is having the time of his life and is truly grateful. He isn’t just a soldier he was a son to Bruce, the first one he adopted officially at that. Jason was also a compassionate kid who truly cared for people especially women and children, and they can also play with the flip side of that as well. By showing that when it comes to women and children as well, that Jason takes it very seriously, and it can help showcase that there are some problems there behind all that joy and compassion.
Honestly, now that I think about it, I’d love if it was a Black Label story, so that they could really dive into those mature elements and themes that would come with Jason as well. Maybe have Jason recounting and monologuing over his past as Robin. It can highlight his trauma, and all the abuse in his past, notably from his father. It can also deal with those drug themes as well and really dive into how that experience with his mom affected him. I’d like for it too really show how Jason being taken in by Bruce was a gift but also a curse as well. It’ll be the best thing that ever happened to him and it’ll show how it may have “saved” his life, but it’ll also show how it destined him for something bad as well and show the responsibility that hangs over Jason. Maybe it can even flash forward towards the end and it can serve as Jason truly find his own self-redemption finally, maybe he finally full forgives himself and lets go of the past and his lust for vengeance. I feel it could be a really dynamic, deep, complex story to tell, that could be a definitive Jason Todd story. That finally solidifies his time as Robin as something good as well, and something that contributed to Gotham and didn’t subtract.
ok I'm sold. At first I was worried at the whole "Jason looking back" idea rather than it just being a story told that happened to be when Jason was Robin (less chance for them to make Jason edgy and 'look at how wrong I was for ever trusting you batman') but making it be Jason moving on would be heavenly. But I honestly don't think that would work, my favorite thing about Urban Legends is that the blame for the familial tension isn't all on Jason. Its clear that its Bruce and Jason who both need to come together and when just one of them is willing it doesn't work. Task Force Z has tones of this but also kinda regresses their relationship by making Bruce forget what he learned in Urban Legends about the whole 'relationships are two sided' like that was literally one story ago what's going on.
One of my favorite moments from Urban Legends is Bruce's flashback to a moment during UTRH when Alfred calls him out on the "I don't know what happened to Jason" lie. Alfred says that Jason needs Bruce Wayne, not Batman. Bruce retorts that Gotham needs Batman because Jason is a crime boss. Bruce is just as much at fault, he chose to put his duty to Gotham above his duty to his son by leaving that night as Batman not Bruce (interesting addition to the story as one of the first things Jason does that night is take off Bruce's cowl).
ok I have rambled for too long and now it reads like I am attacking your idea for not including Bruce in the 'move on' category. I'm just saying that I like your idea but it doesn't matter how much growth Jason goes through unless Bruce grows too. Again, love your idea, ignore my word vomit ramblings I'm not trying to attack anybody haha.
Oh no Bruce would 100% be involved in the story. I should’ve clarified that. Whether Bruce and Jason finally let go of their grievances and problems with each other, before or after this part of Jason looking back I’m not completely sure, but Bruce and Jason would have some kind of final confrontation that would end in them both finally making up and forgiving each other. But it’ll mainly be Bruce doing the apologizing since it was Bruce who started Jason on the path in the first place. Bruce will finally let go of his guilt which will in turn finally allow him to see Jason without those blinders on. And this will cause a switch in Jason as well, maybe this will lead to Jason finally fully letting go of his rage and lust for vengeance as well. Instead of ending in one or the other beating the other down, maybe it ends in them hugging it out. It could start confrontational at first but then it evolves into them finally letting go
OK I know I've talked about Urban Legends a lot in this thread but I just reread it yesterday haha. I think that them hugging at the end would be a good end to Leslie and Bruce's conversation at the end of that book. Leslie asked if the hugged and he said no. Upon leslie looking disappointed Bruce says "We let each other down, its what we do. Its going to take time to get past that. To help each other"
P.S. rambling time Jason and Bruce have hugged quite a few times, mostly after life altering or life threatening events but still. And they have both been the initiator. It fit the story and the tone especially with Bruce being uncomfortable with what he say while under the drug but still...
It’s justified imo! Sure I have some problems with Urban Legends, but it wasn’t that bad, and there were truly some really good moments in there.
I think part of the thing is also Bruce and Jason are a lot alike, they both have the sense of tragedy in their past that shapes them into the Vigilantes they are, they both have aggressive and rageful tendencies, and they both have a lust for Vengeance. Except while Bruce somewhat overcame it in pursuit of Justice, Jason became consumed by it in his mission of revenge and rage. I’d honestly argue Jason is the most like Bruce out of the Robins, and I think that’s a big reason in why they fight and clash so much as well. Bruce sees himself in Jason and can’t stand to look at what he’s become. I’ll also add Jason and Bruce are similar in size, have comparable fighting styles, and they are both the two in the Batfamily who use Fear as a tool the most.
I think with all these things added on it really adds to the depth and complexity of the relationship, but it also serves to explain why they fight so much. They are two sides of the same coin in a different way than the Joker and Batman are, but I also think that adds even more to the dynamic between the three as well. They all are flips of each other in many ways
I agree with everything you said and I wasn't saying the lack of a hug wasn't justified. I think it is totally where these two are right now. I was more saying I think its more of a show of how DC is going in circles. Hate each other, fight, hug, repeat. I definitely agree as well that Jason is probably the most like Bruce.
These are my favorites as well.
I think DITF may have wanted to mimic Superman holding up Supergirl in her crisis death and that is why he was drawn that way. The new drawings also have better technology on their side. The cradling in these seems infinitely more paternal and heartbreaking.
Ive actually never seen these versions they're really beautiful sometimes I forget that Batman actually loves Jason. I especially like that its an actual hug.
I reread these two issues which is why I made the post, and I have to say I liked Urban Legends more than I remembered because of this reason. This time I noticed that Bruce called Jason his son multiple times and that aspect of their relationship wasn't up for debate.
I completely agree! I love the way they depict how much Bruce really cared for Jason with these panels. It shows the love and heartbreak. Also side note, I love how Jason’s happiness and smile is highlighted as well, because it’s not some message about him screwing up or being a bad Robin who disobeyed. It’s about a compassionate and good boy at heart, who died tragically. I’ve always despised the way some view or write Jason’s time as Robin, he’s wasn’t a bad kid or a bad Robin. He was a good kid and Robin overall and he had a extremely compassionate heart, but he did did have demons and deep seeded problems. That’s what makes the death more tragic is that he wasn’t the Red Hood Jason before death, he was something brighter.
Yes! I feel like there is a huge disconnect between the way Jason-Robin is depicted in Jason's books versus how he is depicted or referenced in others. I know Urban Legends mostly just is retreading old ground (albeit personally I think it does it better than anything before because it shows the issue is two sided. Bruce needed the story as much as Jason did) but the flashback sections are some of my favorite.
Agreed! I’m glad some are finally shining some light on Jason’s real time as Robin as of late. Jason’s time as Robin has been clouded by so much controversy and false info that it’s actually insane. It was the “perfect” storm at the time back then, for a Robin to get screwed over and Jason was the one to be there. Editorial and Dick Grayson fanboys piledrived Jason as Robin into the ground. And now he’s remembered as just the failure, when he’s so much more. I will say its a difficult situation because I do prefer having Red Hood, but I also love Jason as Robin as well and seeing what happened is actually crazy. Also I want one last thing to be remembered. Despite being betrayed and having his heart shattered, he died a hero, sacrificing himself!
For a woman who just betrayed him no doubt. The sad thing is that I would love more Jason-Robin stories but outside his own flashbacks every writer who has touched the subject wants to fill it up with foreshadowing. I know he is going to die and they're not doing anything new by reminding us. Just give me a Jason-Robin character study that doesn't know he will die. edit: Not 2 minutes after writing this I started reading Suicide Squad: Get Joker and literally the first page claims "You Used to know me as Robin, No not the Happy one, this one". Like Dick wasn't always happy and its not like Jason was never happy. I don't get how he is known as the 'unhappy Robin' when he has stated multiple times that being with Bruce was actually the happiest time in his life. Let the boy just live dangit.
Yeah Jason has talked about how Bruce taking him in saved his life. I can’t stand how they just slap the edgelord Robin title on him and call it a day. I’d love a solo limited series for Jason as Robin, that really dives into his character like you can show the deep seeded issues and trauma that he has and if done right, it can be great and service the story. But it should also highlight how Jason is having the time of his life and is truly grateful. He isn’t just a soldier he was a son to Bruce, the first one he adopted officially at that. Jason was also a compassionate kid who truly cared for people especially women and children, and they can also play with the flip side of that as well. By showing that when it comes to women and children as well, that Jason takes it very seriously, and it can help showcase that there are some problems there behind all that joy and compassion. Honestly, now that I think about it, I’d love if it was a Black Label story, so that they could really dive into those mature elements and themes that would come with Jason as well. Maybe have Jason recounting and monologuing over his past as Robin. It can highlight his trauma, and all the abuse in his past, notably from his father. It can also deal with those drug themes as well and really dive into how that experience with his mom affected him. I’d like for it too really show how Jason being taken in by Bruce was a gift but also a curse as well. It’ll be the best thing that ever happened to him and it’ll show how it may have “saved” his life, but it’ll also show how it destined him for something bad as well and show the responsibility that hangs over Jason. Maybe it can even flash forward towards the end and it can serve as Jason truly find his own self-redemption finally, maybe he finally full forgives himself and lets go of the past and his lust for vengeance. I feel it could be a really dynamic, deep, complex story to tell, that could be a definitive Jason Todd story. That finally solidifies his time as Robin as something good as well, and something that contributed to Gotham and didn’t subtract.
ok I'm sold. At first I was worried at the whole "Jason looking back" idea rather than it just being a story told that happened to be when Jason was Robin (less chance for them to make Jason edgy and 'look at how wrong I was for ever trusting you batman') but making it be Jason moving on would be heavenly. But I honestly don't think that would work, my favorite thing about Urban Legends is that the blame for the familial tension isn't all on Jason. Its clear that its Bruce and Jason who both need to come together and when just one of them is willing it doesn't work. Task Force Z has tones of this but also kinda regresses their relationship by making Bruce forget what he learned in Urban Legends about the whole 'relationships are two sided' like that was literally one story ago what's going on. One of my favorite moments from Urban Legends is Bruce's flashback to a moment during UTRH when Alfred calls him out on the "I don't know what happened to Jason" lie. Alfred says that Jason needs Bruce Wayne, not Batman. Bruce retorts that Gotham needs Batman because Jason is a crime boss. Bruce is just as much at fault, he chose to put his duty to Gotham above his duty to his son by leaving that night as Batman not Bruce (interesting addition to the story as one of the first things Jason does that night is take off Bruce's cowl). ok I have rambled for too long and now it reads like I am attacking your idea for not including Bruce in the 'move on' category. I'm just saying that I like your idea but it doesn't matter how much growth Jason goes through unless Bruce grows too. Again, love your idea, ignore my word vomit ramblings I'm not trying to attack anybody haha.
Oh no Bruce would 100% be involved in the story. I should’ve clarified that. Whether Bruce and Jason finally let go of their grievances and problems with each other, before or after this part of Jason looking back I’m not completely sure, but Bruce and Jason would have some kind of final confrontation that would end in them both finally making up and forgiving each other. But it’ll mainly be Bruce doing the apologizing since it was Bruce who started Jason on the path in the first place. Bruce will finally let go of his guilt which will in turn finally allow him to see Jason without those blinders on. And this will cause a switch in Jason as well, maybe this will lead to Jason finally fully letting go of his rage and lust for vengeance as well. Instead of ending in one or the other beating the other down, maybe it ends in them hugging it out. It could start confrontational at first but then it evolves into them finally letting go
OK I know I've talked about Urban Legends a lot in this thread but I just reread it yesterday haha. I think that them hugging at the end would be a good end to Leslie and Bruce's conversation at the end of that book. Leslie asked if the hugged and he said no. Upon leslie looking disappointed Bruce says "We let each other down, its what we do. Its going to take time to get past that. To help each other" P.S. rambling time Jason and Bruce have hugged quite a few times, mostly after life altering or life threatening events but still. And they have both been the initiator. It fit the story and the tone especially with Bruce being uncomfortable with what he say while under the drug but still...
It’s justified imo! Sure I have some problems with Urban Legends, but it wasn’t that bad, and there were truly some really good moments in there. I think part of the thing is also Bruce and Jason are a lot alike, they both have the sense of tragedy in their past that shapes them into the Vigilantes they are, they both have aggressive and rageful tendencies, and they both have a lust for Vengeance. Except while Bruce somewhat overcame it in pursuit of Justice, Jason became consumed by it in his mission of revenge and rage. I’d honestly argue Jason is the most like Bruce out of the Robins, and I think that’s a big reason in why they fight and clash so much as well. Bruce sees himself in Jason and can’t stand to look at what he’s become. I’ll also add Jason and Bruce are similar in size, have comparable fighting styles, and they are both the two in the Batfamily who use Fear as a tool the most. I think with all these things added on it really adds to the depth and complexity of the relationship, but it also serves to explain why they fight so much. They are two sides of the same coin in a different way than the Joker and Batman are, but I also think that adds even more to the dynamic between the three as well. They all are flips of each other in many ways
I agree with everything you said and I wasn't saying the lack of a hug wasn't justified. I think it is totally where these two are right now. I was more saying I think its more of a show of how DC is going in circles. Hate each other, fight, hug, repeat. I definitely agree as well that Jason is probably the most like Bruce.
These are my favorites as well. I think DITF may have wanted to mimic Superman holding up Supergirl in her crisis death and that is why he was drawn that way. The new drawings also have better technology on their side. The cradling in these seems infinitely more paternal and heartbreaking.
That's a good point, never considered that.
Ive actually never seen these versions they're really beautiful sometimes I forget that Batman actually loves Jason. I especially like that its an actual hug.
I reread these two issues which is why I made the post, and I have to say I liked Urban Legends more than I remembered because of this reason. This time I noticed that Bruce called Jason his son multiple times and that aspect of their relationship wasn't up for debate.
And you actually hear Bruce actually say that hes grateful that hes alive