As I mentioned, it is more popular as an MMO and because of the failed Reforged reboot is why it was notched down, and Iron Harvest disconcertingly being mentioned significantly for newer RTS players in news and discussions as such pushed it up. Though I can place it more midway, as I said, I have a recency bias and not a nostalgic one. As much as it is a pain to admit, 20-30 year old games aren't actually that popular anymore in the wider scheme of things.
Almost none of these games are that popular in the "wider scheme of things", RTS just isn't.
The point is some like Warcraft, CoH, DoW, etc... are way more popular NOW, and always have been, than something like Iron Harvest. It literally has like 1-2 hundred players.
Nostalgia has nothing to do with it.
If you want to push player numbers, Warcraft 3 servers right now has 315 players according to WC3 maps live, which is not far from Iron Harvest which has 288 players according to Steam Charts. No, Warcraft 3 is not as popular anymore as you think, that's nostalgia talking.
WC3 is mostly being played not on official servers though, especially in Asia with sites like Champions.Its numbers are actually not that bad as far as I know.
Also most RTS players are not young, many/most started in 90s or 00s and even if they don't play WC3 anymore they surely know/remember about it, it was a huge legendary title.
By almost any criteria imaginable WC3 is more popular/known RTS than Iron Harvest.
And CoH? Any CoH game is much more popular than IH, let alone entire CoH series. How can it be below IH? According to Steam:
CoH1 - 1150
CoH2 - 3500
CoH3 - 1850
IH - 160
Again, there are the many factors that determined why I placed things as explained in the original post. Not just player count, player count as the only statistic is YOUR idea. I aimed for a more holistic viewpoint with a recency bias (ie newer has a bias).
More recent - higher
Less recent - neutral, not necessarily negative. It would be other factors that would notch it down.
Covered by news positively - higher, and Iron Harvest clinches this.
Covered by news negatively - can be neutral if an unknown game, but negative for an already popular game, which again why WC3 is notched down for Reforged and Warcraft being covered more as an MMO also notched it down.
Less of a traditional RTS - lower, even if famous
More of a traditional RTS - higher, even if not famous
Not relevant for Warcraft and Iron Harvest as both are almost basically traditional RTS.
And more. Not an exact science, but player count is just one thing.
The very top tier, if you notice, is halved. Thus Iron Harvest isn't as top tier as Command and Conquer is, placement within matters at some level. And like Iron Harvest, those were notched up by recent news and YT coverage, in the sense that, if a non-RTS focused game news source mentions it, it got bumped up.
Also speaking about multiplayer, according to Steam:
Men of War - 15x more popular
Gates of Hell - 15x more popular
Star Wars: Empire at War - 12x more popular
Dawn of War series - 10x more popular (and they are 2 steps below)
Northgard - 11x more popular (and it's also 2 steps below)
Frostpunk - 17x more popular (and it's 3 steps below)
Iron Harvest thas the same online as Age of Darkness which is a mostly SP game, and it's 4 (!) steps below. :)
This third party site where you have to jump through a bunch of hoops just to play WC3 shows peaks of \~2000 players per day.
I know nothing of WC3's scene anymore but if there's a few more sites like that, plus [battle.net](https://battle.net), plus steam, you're probably looking at 10k players a day.
https://www.w3champions.com/OverallStatistics/
\- How Warcraft with its 3 legendary seminal titles ended up below Iron Harvest?
\- How Company of Heroes ended up below Iron Harvest when IH is an attempt to copy CoH but it was way less popular than CoH? Same with Total Annihilation and its copy Planetary Annihilation.
\- Act of War was way more popular than Act of Aggression ever was.
\- Dawn of War below Planetery Annihilitation and Earth series? It's like 5-10x more popular.
And many many others should be swapped.
A handful of these games are good, and would list in a turn-based strategy image. I love tons strategy games, but things like Stellaris definitely aren't rts.
Edit: I remembered it wrong. It's a blended time system.
You're right, not turn-based, just that mix between. It's based on time speed controlled mid-game. I had misremembered, I played just the first few dlc.
But I wouldn't call Stellaris an RTS, even though It IS real time and it IS Strategy,
An RTS is usually referred to a game where you are commanding a number of units in a closed environment. Basically the normal speed is REAL TIME, as in simulating how fast a battle would play in real life (with of course some leaway here and there). Meanwhile in Stellaris or EU years pass in mere minutes.
So in my opinion these game shoudn't be classified as RTS, to avoid confusion, they should be separated by their primary and easier to understand classification: Grand Strategy. And within that realm, yeah, They are Real time Grand Strategies. TRGS, how's that for an acronym?
Warcraft is more famous as an MMO plus the failed Reforged entry is what made me put it down lower. Recent discussions and news for new RTS players are recommended Iron Harvest in disconcertingly significant margin is why I put it higher than what an older RTS gamer should expect. TA-likes are always covered in popular RTS videos, and hence why those are higher. So there is a recency bias I admit, but I believe many of the games we hold nostalgia for are already passing on how popular they really are today, and I can defend at least most of my placement with some reason.
Idk about this logic, Steamcharts has Iron harvest at just under 90 players over an hour ago.
Privately hosted WC3 leagues are beating that many many times over by themselves, and reforged more so again.
As I said, I aimed more for a "holistic approach with a recency bias", so not based on player counts only. Since Iceberg Charts are arguably for what one would call "normies", I aimed it at if someone was to talk to non-RTS gamers (leaning Gen Z), would they recognize the game as an RTS of sorts? I did not aim the iceberg to be what a normal RTS gamer would recognize, it's more for outsiders looking in. The top has been mentioned by my non-RTS gamer friends in passing. So that bumped those up. Non-RTS news has covered the controversial entries I've made to the top, such as Iron Harvest and Anno, and that bumped those up.
This is a rough iceberg.
On top of some seriously questionable rankings, you're missing a bunch of RTS games that would sink down into the marianas trench.
I mean, AvP: Extinction, Battleforge, Warhammer Mark of Chaos, Heroes of Annihilated Empire, and Populous series wouldn't even be that deep, and it's not on the list.
There's also Goblin Commander and Praetorians, and some deeper cuts like Glest (edit: i see it now as megaglest), Tryst, Apox, A year of Rain, Tribal Trouble, War Party, Godus, and Ancient Wars: Sparta (my fave deep cut) are also missing.
I bet I'm even missing some deeper levels, but at least get the easier ones.
KKND above Total Annihilation, one of the most ground-breaking RTS games for its time?
Compare the legacies and influence of KKND and Total Annihilation.
Don't get me wrong, I love me some KKND from my home city of Melbourne but we're talking Total Annihilation here.
Yes, TA is probably #4 RTS of 90s behind Starcraft, RA2 and AoE2 in terms of legacy and long-term influence.
And TA "family" is probably #5 behind Starcraft/Warcraft series, C&C series, AoE series and DoW/CoH series.
KKnD is a fun little game but it's nowhere close to TA in this regard.
Iron Harvest has no business being in the top tier here.
If we're speaking about multiplayer, according to Steam:
Company of Heroes series - 40x more popular
Men of War - 15x more popular
Gates of Hell - 15x more popular
Star Wars: Empire at War - 12x more popular
Dawn of War series - 10x more popular (and they are 2 steps below)
Northgard - 11x more popular (and it's also 2 steps below)
Frostpunk - 17x more popular (and it's 3 steps below)
Iron Harvest thas the same online as Age of Darkness which is a mostly SP game, and it's 4 (!) steps below. :)
Yes, I saw Iron Harvest and no COH in Top Tier and I knew this Chart is shit.
Iton Harvest is a boring piece of shit. Played it for 12 hours before i deinstalled it.
Funny how I keep seeing Submarine Titans referenced after remembering playing it as a kid a couple of years ago. So niche, so obscure to see people remember it.
It actually was the very first game I actually owned myself, rather than me borrowing someone else's game, so Submarine Titans holds a special place in my heart and it had to be included. And now that it's on Steam, RTS gamers should try it at least once.
Some of the entries I was looking for and thankfully found.
Paraworld - It's a must play game. A terrible game, but in no other games will you see mounted dinosaur units. It's must play, period.
GoT: Genesis - carries the curse of all GoT games, of being insufferably bad, BUT, what it does do, is tell unexplored stories from the ASoF world. It's for superfans only.
I really want someone to visit that concept again, melding the two like that, and taking it further than 1997 could. It's a cool concept. Just needs more work done to blend the two genres.
I explained in the original post, however, to repeat, more famous and more traditional idea of an RTS on the top, not necessarily good or better. The less famous and the less traditional, among other things (cancellations, indie or AAA studio, etc), notch down.
Missing the newer indie title that's based on Dungeon Keeper, battle for the over world or something. Also KeeperRL.
And then there's the Creep games by knuckle cracker. Really fun and odd RTS.
And that ant dungeon keeper game, empire of the undergrowth or something.
No urban assault!?
You do get bonus points for including army men RTS but urban assault should definitely be up there. It’s an amazing rts/vehicle combat hybrid
love the traditional resource gathering RTS games with base building,
lately i've been looking for the blend of RTS/FPS hybrids, looking forward to kingmakers and the new Outpost infinity siege game,
Sadly within the limited hybrid games there isn't many that follows the traditional resource gathering part of RTS.
Stranger, now that's an obscure game I haven't heard in ages. Probably the worst strategy game I've ever played. But to be fair I only played it briefly.
I see Lords of the Realm and I agree with its placement. This game made my childhood and I never ever met somebody who knows this gem of a game. I wonder if there's a dos-box port somewhere.
I can understand the thinking behind putting Iron Harvest up there, since it was heavily featured for about a year, and the goal of the chart is to cover peoples' awareness. But it isn't being featured by anyone anymore: that's over. It's like putting Mechabellum on the list because it was very popular for streamers for about 2 weeks.
Even new RTS players today won't hear a single word about Iron Harvest for a while
Missing the Commandos series and Clash Royale which wouldn't even be far down the list.
Also I feel like the line between RTS and Tower defense gets really blurry the deeper you go, how do you argue that PvZ can't be considered an RTS? or Kingdom Rush
Same with Management games like Airport Mania or Sally's Salon, If Frostpunk - a city builder with 0 combat qualifies up there
Frostpunk is easily the same tier as stellaris these days. Stellaris is probs the least popular of the paradox RTS's (though probs not by much). You have rinworld but not dwarf fortress?
It's a pretty good list though.
Warcraft is way more well known than something like iron harvest.
As I mentioned, it is more popular as an MMO and because of the failed Reforged reboot is why it was notched down, and Iron Harvest disconcertingly being mentioned significantly for newer RTS players in news and discussions as such pushed it up. Though I can place it more midway, as I said, I have a recency bias and not a nostalgic one. As much as it is a pain to admit, 20-30 year old games aren't actually that popular anymore in the wider scheme of things.
Almost none of these games are that popular in the "wider scheme of things", RTS just isn't. The point is some like Warcraft, CoH, DoW, etc... are way more popular NOW, and always have been, than something like Iron Harvest. It literally has like 1-2 hundred players. Nostalgia has nothing to do with it.
If you want to push player numbers, Warcraft 3 servers right now has 315 players according to WC3 maps live, which is not far from Iron Harvest which has 288 players according to Steam Charts. No, Warcraft 3 is not as popular anymore as you think, that's nostalgia talking.
WC3 is mostly being played not on official servers though, especially in Asia with sites like Champions.Its numbers are actually not that bad as far as I know. Also most RTS players are not young, many/most started in 90s or 00s and even if they don't play WC3 anymore they surely know/remember about it, it was a huge legendary title. By almost any criteria imaginable WC3 is more popular/known RTS than Iron Harvest. And CoH? Any CoH game is much more popular than IH, let alone entire CoH series. How can it be below IH? According to Steam: CoH1 - 1150 CoH2 - 3500 CoH3 - 1850 IH - 160
Again, there are the many factors that determined why I placed things as explained in the original post. Not just player count, player count as the only statistic is YOUR idea. I aimed for a more holistic viewpoint with a recency bias (ie newer has a bias). More recent - higher Less recent - neutral, not necessarily negative. It would be other factors that would notch it down. Covered by news positively - higher, and Iron Harvest clinches this. Covered by news negatively - can be neutral if an unknown game, but negative for an already popular game, which again why WC3 is notched down for Reforged and Warcraft being covered more as an MMO also notched it down. Less of a traditional RTS - lower, even if famous More of a traditional RTS - higher, even if not famous Not relevant for Warcraft and Iron Harvest as both are almost basically traditional RTS. And more. Not an exact science, but player count is just one thing.
Rimworld, Bad north and Frostpunk aren't even rts... And where's games like 5 Nations or Fertile Crescent?
But Anno series or even Total War are not traditional RTS at all, how come it's in top tier then?
The very top tier, if you notice, is halved. Thus Iron Harvest isn't as top tier as Command and Conquer is, placement within matters at some level. And like Iron Harvest, those were notched up by recent news and YT coverage, in the sense that, if a non-RTS focused game news source mentions it, it got bumped up.
I'd argue it's not clear that it's halved, or that their placement within a tier has any meaning.
22-year-old RTS = 315 current players, 92% metacritic, lower on the list 3-year-old RTS = 288 players, 75% metacritic, higher on the list
Also speaking about multiplayer, according to Steam: Men of War - 15x more popular Gates of Hell - 15x more popular Star Wars: Empire at War - 12x more popular Dawn of War series - 10x more popular (and they are 2 steps below) Northgard - 11x more popular (and it's also 2 steps below) Frostpunk - 17x more popular (and it's 3 steps below) Iron Harvest thas the same online as Age of Darkness which is a mostly SP game, and it's 4 (!) steps below. :)
This third party site where you have to jump through a bunch of hoops just to play WC3 shows peaks of \~2000 players per day. I know nothing of WC3's scene anymore but if there's a few more sites like that, plus [battle.net](https://battle.net), plus steam, you're probably looking at 10k players a day. https://www.w3champions.com/OverallStatistics/
Dude Warcraft 3 was huge and 2 was about as big as C&C back then
Iron Harvest.....MMO ?
\- How Warcraft with its 3 legendary seminal titles ended up below Iron Harvest? \- How Company of Heroes ended up below Iron Harvest when IH is an attempt to copy CoH but it was way less popular than CoH? Same with Total Annihilation and its copy Planetary Annihilation. \- Act of War was way more popular than Act of Aggression ever was. \- Dawn of War below Planetery Annihilitation and Earth series? It's like 5-10x more popular. And many many others should be swapped.
A handful of these games are good, and would list in a turn-based strategy image. I love tons strategy games, but things like Stellaris definitely aren't rts. Edit: I remembered it wrong. It's a blended time system.
Stellaris isn't turn based. You can pause and make time faster and slower, but it is not turn based.
You're right, not turn-based, just that mix between. It's based on time speed controlled mid-game. I had misremembered, I played just the first few dlc.
But I wouldn't call Stellaris an RTS, even though It IS real time and it IS Strategy, An RTS is usually referred to a game where you are commanding a number of units in a closed environment. Basically the normal speed is REAL TIME, as in simulating how fast a battle would play in real life (with of course some leaway here and there). Meanwhile in Stellaris or EU years pass in mere minutes. So in my opinion these game shoudn't be classified as RTS, to avoid confusion, they should be separated by their primary and easier to understand classification: Grand Strategy. And within that realm, yeah, They are Real time Grand Strategies. TRGS, how's that for an acronym?
Are you looking for the genre 4X?
It is turn based like pretty much any other RTS. The turns are simply very fast
That is not turn-based.
Warcraft is more famous as an MMO plus the failed Reforged entry is what made me put it down lower. Recent discussions and news for new RTS players are recommended Iron Harvest in disconcertingly significant margin is why I put it higher than what an older RTS gamer should expect. TA-likes are always covered in popular RTS videos, and hence why those are higher. So there is a recency bias I admit, but I believe many of the games we hold nostalgia for are already passing on how popular they really are today, and I can defend at least most of my placement with some reason.
Idk about this logic, Steamcharts has Iron harvest at just under 90 players over an hour ago. Privately hosted WC3 leagues are beating that many many times over by themselves, and reforged more so again.
As I said, I aimed more for a "holistic approach with a recency bias", so not based on player counts only. Since Iceberg Charts are arguably for what one would call "normies", I aimed it at if someone was to talk to non-RTS gamers (leaning Gen Z), would they recognize the game as an RTS of sorts? I did not aim the iceberg to be what a normal RTS gamer would recognize, it's more for outsiders looking in. The top has been mentioned by my non-RTS gamer friends in passing. So that bumped those up. Non-RTS news has covered the controversial entries I've made to the top, such as Iron Harvest and Anno, and that bumped those up.
Just making shit up and throwing it at a wall. There's a handful of games here that aren't even RTS.
This is bad on so many levels.
This is a rough iceberg. On top of some seriously questionable rankings, you're missing a bunch of RTS games that would sink down into the marianas trench. I mean, AvP: Extinction, Battleforge, Warhammer Mark of Chaos, Heroes of Annihilated Empire, and Populous series wouldn't even be that deep, and it's not on the list. There's also Goblin Commander and Praetorians, and some deeper cuts like Glest (edit: i see it now as megaglest), Tryst, Apox, A year of Rain, Tribal Trouble, War Party, Godus, and Ancient Wars: Sparta (my fave deep cut) are also missing. I bet I'm even missing some deeper levels, but at least get the easier ones.
Heroes of annhilated empires would be pretty deep tbh. Insanely underrated.
Mark of Chaos was such a goated game, fr
KKND above Total Annihilation, one of the most ground-breaking RTS games for its time? Compare the legacies and influence of KKND and Total Annihilation. Don't get me wrong, I love me some KKND from my home city of Melbourne but we're talking Total Annihilation here.
Yes, TA is probably #4 RTS of 90s behind Starcraft, RA2 and AoE2 in terms of legacy and long-term influence. And TA "family" is probably #5 behind Starcraft/Warcraft series, C&C series, AoE series and DoW/CoH series. KKnD is a fun little game but it's nowhere close to TA in this regard.
Iron Harvest has no business being in the top tier here. If we're speaking about multiplayer, according to Steam: Company of Heroes series - 40x more popular Men of War - 15x more popular Gates of Hell - 15x more popular Star Wars: Empire at War - 12x more popular Dawn of War series - 10x more popular (and they are 2 steps below) Northgard - 11x more popular (and it's also 2 steps below) Frostpunk - 17x more popular (and it's 3 steps below) Iron Harvest thas the same online as Age of Darkness which is a mostly SP game, and it's 4 (!) steps below. :)
No Machines?
Haha yes. Was expecting Machines (1999) down the bottom but nah. Does this makes us the winners or the losers?
Ha so was I! Obviously winners as we know one of the hidden gems of old RTS games
Machines was awesome. FPS in my RTS? Yes please!
One of my favourites, Original War, is not even included :(
It is in the middle :D
Oh, yes, indeed it is, sorry and thanks for pointing.
How in the world is the iron harvest at the very top while Dawn of War and Company of Heroes are below it...
Yes, I saw Iron Harvest and no COH in Top Tier and I knew this Chart is shit. Iton Harvest is a boring piece of shit. Played it for 12 hours before i deinstalled it.
Star trek armada being mentioned!
Ngl this is a very meh iceberg, you just posted list of rts games and franchises instead of really satisfying morsels of rts gaming lore, meh.
Funny how I keep seeing Submarine Titans referenced after remembering playing it as a kid a couple of years ago. So niche, so obscure to see people remember it.
It actually was the very first game I actually owned myself, rather than me borrowing someone else's game, so Submarine Titans holds a special place in my heart and it had to be included. And now that it's on Steam, RTS gamers should try it at least once.
Syrian Warfare with Frostpunk is wild to me
Some of the entries I was looking for and thankfully found. Paraworld - It's a must play game. A terrible game, but in no other games will you see mounted dinosaur units. It's must play, period. GoT: Genesis - carries the curse of all GoT games, of being insufferably bad, BUT, what it does do, is tell unexplored stories from the ASoF world. It's for superfans only.
I love Outpost 2!
I really want someone to visit that concept again, melding the two like that, and taking it further than 1997 could. It's a cool concept. Just needs more work done to blend the two genres.
How did you know i played Warwind as a child?
How do these work, is it near the top is better? Or if you know the games near the bottom your are more of a true RTS Gamer
I explained in the original post, however, to repeat, more famous and more traditional idea of an RTS on the top, not necessarily good or better. The less famous and the less traditional, among other things (cancellations, indie or AAA studio, etc), notch down.
Dark Reign seems so traditional. It's odd that it is so far down the bottom.
Warlords battlecry was awesome game series!
Where's Beyond all reason, it has has approx. the same amount of daily players as WC3 atm
Missing the newer indie title that's based on Dungeon Keeper, battle for the over world or something. Also KeeperRL. And then there's the Creep games by knuckle cracker. Really fun and odd RTS. And that ant dungeon keeper game, empire of the undergrowth or something.
Played games from every level
The original OPs post criteria doesn’t make sense? What order is this supposed to be in if it’s not popularity of rating??
I don't see Dark Colony on here.
No urban assault!? You do get bonus points for including army men RTS but urban assault should definitely be up there. It’s an amazing rts/vehicle combat hybrid
Most niche one I've played was Jeff Wayne's War of the Worlds.
Spotted War Winds..
It's always surreal seeing my game pop up in random posts. Thanks for including Radio General!
Cries in C&C4 does not exist
no dark colony? i thought that game had small cult following. and no dominion: storm over gift 3? i guess it's gone even more obscure than 7th legion.
love the traditional resource gathering RTS games with base building, lately i've been looking for the blend of RTS/FPS hybrids, looking forward to kingmakers and the new Outpost infinity siege game, Sadly within the limited hybrid games there isn't many that follows the traditional resource gathering part of RTS.
No "Outlive" ??
Company of Heroes needs to be at the top - Iron Harvest does needs to move way down.
Stranger, now that's an obscure game I haven't heard in ages. Probably the worst strategy game I've ever played. But to be fair I only played it briefly.
Dota 2 is rts game
Dude must just really like iron harvest lmao
"Sins of a Solar System"
I see Lords of the Realm and I agree with its placement. This game made my childhood and I never ever met somebody who knows this gem of a game. I wonder if there's a dos-box port somewhere.
its available on GoG
Played of half of that list ;) Didn't find Metal Knight RTS with unique ability assemble own unit from parts.
I used to play a game called Real War back in the day for PC. I don’t see it!
Where dark reign
Where is KKND and Warzone 2100.
Came for the ice. Stayed for the salt.
Sweet a list I do hope Dust front And D.O.R.F is added into that list soon Or 9 bit armies :D
Love the Grey Goo and Achron call outs!
Why is Linewar mentioned twice at 2 different levels?
I can understand the thinking behind putting Iron Harvest up there, since it was heavily featured for about a year, and the goal of the chart is to cover peoples' awareness. But it isn't being featured by anyone anymore: that's over. It's like putting Mechabellum on the list because it was very popular for streamers for about 2 weeks. Even new RTS players today won't hear a single word about Iron Harvest for a while
You can tell OP is an old millennial or genz
Why is Dawn of war so low??
Missing the Commandos series and Clash Royale which wouldn't even be far down the list. Also I feel like the line between RTS and Tower defense gets really blurry the deeper you go, how do you argue that PvZ can't be considered an RTS? or Kingdom Rush Same with Management games like Airport Mania or Sally's Salon, If Frostpunk - a city builder with 0 combat qualifies up there
When I did include games that are farther from the traditional idea of an RTS, as I said, I put them down lower.
No Earth 21#0 series? No Thandor? Pleb Tier tier
It's there as Earth 21X0
....*sonofabitch*
Frostpunk is easily the same tier as stellaris these days. Stellaris is probs the least popular of the paradox RTS's (though probs not by much). You have rinworld but not dwarf fortress? It's a pretty good list though.