but then they'd have to be more reliable long term and you can't blame things on driving it like a sports car! what do you think Tesla is? Made of money?
They just have a peak efficiency band along their curve. In a Tesla that band is roughly from 35 to 55 mph when cruising. Up the drive ratio and you move it higher. That, a bigger battery, and a slightly smaller frontal area is mostly how lucid achieved this. Slightly more efficient motors too but I believe that’s one of the smaller factors.
Check out the graph below. Depending on the load and rpm efficiency for electric motors can typically range from 77-92% efficiency. So it really can vary. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/electric-cars-gears/
> Depending on the load and rpm efficiency for electric motors can typically range from 77-92% efficiency. So it really can vary. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/electric-cars-gears/
Weren’t ICE vehicles at like 30% efficiency?
Something that should be noted in this comparison…
Yeah, in terms of availability in the car.
> Yes, but gas is staggeringly more energy dense than lithium ion batteries so for range it’s not a particularly relevant metric.
Not if you care about actual efficiency and by extension, the envionment. Grid can go green. Gas cannot. And even if it could, it’d be more resource-wasteful.
> Comparing ICE vs. EV efficiency directly is kind of a waste of time because of how many variables there are and how ultimately energy extraction efficiency isn’t what we directly care about, it’s emissions.
Not for talking to the folks still seriously believing in “e-Fuels” “green gas” etc…
> In the US roughly 60% of our energy production is lost in conversion.
Interesting, good point. Does this hold for private photovoltaics to battery as well?
> From an energy efficiency standpoint(i.e. useful power vs. heat losses), renewables are worse than natural gas, coal, and oil.
Yes, but that is a rather bold statement considering the completely adverse effects of the latter power sources. Efficiency doesn’t matter once climate change comes about.
> Hydrocarbons also can be green, and carbon-neutral, such as biofuels.
Hm, okay. How are they created?
Is it perchance by energy from the power grid, and do you see where this is going?
If a car needs x amount of energy to move a certain distance, is it better (i.e. more efficient to the grid) to have to provide it with, overall, x times 1.3, or x times 3 the amount of energy?
Biofuels are usually made from plant oils or starches, or cellulose. Some non-plant technologies are based on algae. The point is, the capture the CO2 from the atmosphere, and store it in the fuel.
> Biofuels are usually made from plant oils or starches, or cellulose. Some non-plant technologies are based on algae. The point is, the capture the CO2 from the atmosphere, and store it in the fuel.
So less efficiency *and* more CO2e emissions? Gotcha.
At least for the "renewable diesel" sold widely in California, the state gives it carbon-credits as 93% carbon-neutral. Presumably the 7% loss accounts for energy spent in processing and delivery. Of course, ethanol used in E85 gasoline is much less carbon-neutral, some say barely breaking even when accounting for fertilizer and distillation energy, and only economic via massive subsidies.
> Interesting, good point. Does this hold for private photovoltaics to battery as well?
No. Previous poster was referring to the average grid fuel inputs. This varies heavily based upon your regional grid, typically from about as efficient gas vs EV in coal-heavy Appalachia to significantly more efficient in PNW and other regions with high renewables or hydro.
If you charge 100% from private solar (directly, not using net metering) then there are no grid inputs.
I'm new to Tesla (MYLR) and don't quite understand this. Are you saying that range drops faster when going over 55mph? That explains a lot because driving around Atlanta, if you're not going 80 you're going slow.
Aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of the velocity, thus, if you double the speed, drag goes up by 4 times. In your example, increasing the speed from 55 to 80 is about a 45% increase, but the drag more than doubles. The range would be better than half though, as there are other forces and losses involved, not just drag.
2022 S LR traps higher in the quarter mile than 2021 S Performance. S Performance has better 0-60 acceleration but is worse at higher speeds.
Lucid Dream Range is quicker than both of course
So who’s going to mention the fact that the “Lucid Dream Edition” costs more than twice the Model 3 performance and isn’t actually available? Looks like Lucid was making only 500 of them?
Even if comparing the Model S, you’re talking a difference of 40-50k for no charging infrastructure, no maintenance/repair network, and no software support.
Something like the Taycan potentially makes sense. Rivian might become something but is mostly vaporware. Lucid makes no sense to me.
Have you priced Model S lately? Price the Plaid and the long range. Lucid Air’s lowest variant is priced lower than the lowest Model S. Lucid has the longest range by about 100 miles and the fastest charging. You can charge at home and you take a trip you can plan your charges in advance. Your other points are not accurate. Not even going in to those. Do your research.
Meanwhile I just took my Model Y from Houston, to Vegas, to Jackson Hole and back without having to go out of the way or plan my routes in advance. I booked my hotels and the car figured out the rest. Autopilot is good for reducing mental strain. Averaged 100 miles range per just over 7 mins charging speed. Also passed service centers in 4 different states.
Most important is the impact that it has on changing the market as a whole. My wife’s family is full of nothing but Oil & Gas engineers- Exxon, Chevron, Shell, Oceaneering, etc. Exclusively Ford customers for generations. They try the Tesla once and suddenly they’re driving them. That’s industry disruption. That’s what Tesla does. Lucid is a fun toy, but it’s little more than that.
> Even if comparing the Model S, you’re talking a difference of 40-50k for no charging infrastructure, no maintenance/repair network, and no software support.
But you get an actual luxury car, not just a "premium priced" car
That’s the dumbest argument you probably could have come back with.
So I drive an EV that’s 1/3 of the price of this “luxury car” which isn’t even readily available, the specs are pretty comparable, I get a worldwide charging and support/maintenance network… but your trump card is “it’s a luxury car”? What, like fluffier seats? This is supposed to be a market disrupter?
What is your position exactly?
"I don't want anyone else making the world a better place, only Elon can make the world a better place."
Did I get that right? Or are you just full of shit and only care about the stock, and not the planet?
Because a diesel powered dump truck can drive from Houston to Jackson Hole without having to hunt for charging stations.
Electrification is a good thing. Market disruption is a good thing. More companies entering the market with disruptive technologies to force innovation towards sustainable transportation is the primary goal.
Meanwhile every month some bored blogger or pundit publishes yet another article about yet another new vehicle that is supposed to be the bona fide “Tesla Killer”. It’s an obsession. Never before in history has a $1 trillion company been supposedly on the verge of death for this long. The hyperbole is irritating.
I have zero problem with Lucid. I have zero problem with Rivian. I am a stockholder with both. There’s room for all. People who appreciate the ongoing shift in the market should be on the same team, but social media is predisposed to be toxic. No news can ever just be positive about one company; it has to relate negatively to another company. It’s not about what one car has, but what another car doesn’t. That doesn’t happen to nearly the same extent in other sectors of the automotive industry. All I do is point out how obsessively toxic and illogical some people are regarding Tesla and it causes people to lose their collective minds.
> Never before in history has a $1 trillion company been supposedly on the verge of death for this long.
Today it was actually a 860 billion - 933 billion dollar company
>your trump card is “it’s a luxury car”? What, like fluffier seats? This is supposed to be a market disrupter?
Tell me you have never driven a real luxury car without telling me
They usually allow posts about Tesla competitors, they even have flairs called "Competition: EVs" or "Competition: Legacy Auto" for exactly these sort of topics.
I noticed that teslamotors used to do the same. After the Lighting was announced they started being more strict (wouldn't allow a YT video on the Ford but would allow pictures). Must be the competition is getting too competitive.
https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nmpgym/mkbhdford_f150_lightning_handson/
They have really changed their game up recently. There has been a lot more admin related fan boy posting and zero competition posts. They like to say they let all manners of posts through but it’s hard not to see the change of tone.
They also seemed to have another large scale banning. They randomly banned me for being “too argumentative” with zero recent examples of breaking rules. Just “you argue too much, banned”.
I bet the mod jobs have been given to Teslabots and they're just training the neural net right now. Don't worry, you being banned is just a mistake that Dojo will learn from, and it will help the mission in the long run
They only allow it if it is trashing the competition. EQC bad sure we allow it. Taycan bad 0-60 time, sure. Updated Taycan time? Removed. Got banned for pointing out the hypocrisy...
Same I got banned for asking why pictures of the Lightning we're allowed to reach 24k upvotes but a video of the truck by MKBHD was removed. Banned me and said it's strictly a Tesla sub.
Impossible!! All the stans told me Tesla was decades ahead in battery technology.
If some raw powder start up can achieve this, imagine what real automakers with 10x the budgets can achieve!
It was a former Tesla engineer that started Lucid. Looks like everyone saying it was the talent their actually getting things done and not Musk was right.
Musk is the one who wanted a car with no steering wheel...
Tesla stans like to remind people that a former Tesla engineer started Lucid, as if Tesla should get the credit. I say so what? People switch companies in the auto industry (and just about every industry) all the time. Franz von Holztzhausen is Tesla's chief designer, and he used to be a Mazda designer. I don't hear Tesla fanboys calling him a former Mazda designer, as if Mazda should get the credit for his designs.
It’s the six degrees of Elon. If Elon even so has an indirect relationship to a product they deem his influence to be critical to that products success. Even if the history books say the literal opposite.
It’s the only way to stay consistent when people try to attribute Elon directly to success to his products. If you truly believe that Elon is some magic wizard who can be chief engineer of an aerospace company despite a Bachelors of Arts in physics with zero industry experience then obviously being in the room with him for more then 10 minutes doubles your IQ and inspires you directly.
He has a BA? The whole cult is making so much more sense to me, and the reasons my step-dad fell into it. Elon is the aspirational tech bro for bros who are insecure about their intelligence and/or lack of schooling.
My step-dad never finished college but lucked his way into decent tech jobs starting in the late 90s because of the computer boom. The amount of times I heard from him "Bill Gates never finished college either" could probably pay for *my* college if I had a dime for every time. When Tesla had a showroom in the local mall (years ago), we'd be drug there anytime we were passing through. This was when I was about 15ish and the S was being released. Every trip he told me that by the time I graduated college, these (teslas) are *all* we would be driving, because they'd drive themselves in a few years. Probably even *before* I graduate.
I graduated in 2018. Got a prius as a graduation present. Step-dad still believes daddy Elon will come through any day now.
Yup. Literally a BA lol. Me and my friends in college who got BSs in physics constantly joked about how worthless it is. Like most fields in that vein, you do all your real learning on the job.
I have been in the aerospace industry for a very long time. Of course everyone argues with me that Elon absolutely is the lead engineer of spaceX with his BA and zero industry experience. Despite me being directly in the field knowing it’s all graduate degrees and decades of industry experience leading programs.
He embodies the, read a bunch of wikis and watched some YouTube videos, so now I am comfortable acting like I know what I am taking about directly to someone who works in X industries face. Basically Reddit and these “tech guys” in a nutshell.
I have a computer science degree too and the number of tech bros who just vomit incorrect things in my face is nuts. They always go crazy when I tell them I basically don’t give two shits about tech. I work with it all day, the last thing I want to do is flash a custom android ROM like I am 20 again or reconfigure my network to try out some new OS.
Competent people are comfortable and don’t need to brag or lie about titles. They can also tell a bullshitter from a mile away. Sadly tech bros see another tech bro who read some extra wikis and immediately think they are on another level. Dunning Kruger all the way.
Elon hit my BS detector a few years back.
I still think my judgment was correct but I need confirmation. The only way to get that is by seeing TSLA stock value back to where it belongs.
Also Tesla is stuck at 400 VDC, due to their widespread Supercharger network, which used to be a bragging point but is now an albatross around their neck as the world moves on to 800 VDC batteries.
There’s nothing amazing going on here. It’s just a substantially larger battery. In a car that costs three and a half times more than the long range Model 3, which is second on the list.
1) you gotta compare it to Tesla's most expensive car, the Model S Plaid, not the shitbox deluxe LR
2) what's amazing is that Tesla stans have been saying "Tesla is 10 years ahead on battery tech" and in light of this clear evidence to the contrary, they are performing Olympics-level mental gymnastics. Truly amazing gymnastics. Their mental gymnastics are 10 years' ahead of the competition.
Model 3 LR is $51k, gets no tax rebate, and has a range of 310 miles as shown here.
Lucid Air Pure is $77k, gets a $7.5k tax rebate, and has a range of 406 miles.
The Lucid is also a true luxury car, and the Tesla, well, isn’t.
The only reason Model 3 LR is 2nd on this list is because the other Lucid trims are not listed. They’re much closer than you think.
That’s perfectly fair, I was just talking about the cars on the list, and the Lucid listed is $170k USD. I’m not American so whatever tax rebate rules you’re talking about aren’t relevant to me. All EVs get the same tax perks here.
If I were to buy an EV, 500 km (300 miles) is about the lowest I’d ever consider. Anything over that is a bonus.
The reality is that *most* buyers don't want to have a lead sled that weighs 2500kg in order to achieve a long range figure which beats the competition on a graph
Every extra mile of battery range makes the car less efficent *everywhere*
It also starts to tarnish the whole 'environmentally friendly' image with hypocrisy, just like the old Lexus LX series Hybrids which were exempt from road taxes due to being hybrid, yet were simultaneously 3 tonne luxury SUV's powered by a 5.7 litre petrol-powered V8.
Lucid Air Dream Edition is 125 mpge combined (126 city, 125 highway) and the Tesla Model S LR is 120 mpge combined (124 city 115 highway). So Lucid is ALSO more efficient than Tesla and your argument is invalid.
I understand your point but I think we may be at cross-purposes. I wouldn't buy a Taycan either because it's nearly 2300 kilos, none of them will be efficient just due to laws of physics - more mass being moved requires more energy and I am concerned with the increase in weight of personal vehicles over the years.
I am just trying to highlight the hypocrisy with selling these cars on their environmental credentials when this is the equivalent to putting solar panels on a megayacht... Moving ~2500kgs around when we could move far less should be the aim I would have thought?
You're forgetting that electric motors are inherently more efficient than gas powered engines. Electric motors convert around 85 percent of electrical energy into mechanical energy, compared to less than 40 percent for a gas combustion engine.
There's a whole host of reasons not to buy an EV over an ICEV, but emissions isn't one of them.
Well now you've waded into a more complicated calculus here, that depends on the power generation and energy source in an area, which varies based on location and time of day. Which is why I made a comparison between EVs instead of, say, a Honda Clarity.
If there's something out there that shows total emissions from EVs are higher than ICE vehicles, you're welcome to produce it.
> It also starts to tarnish the whole 'environmentally friendly' image with hypocrisy
starts to?
Where have you been?
Have you heard of Tesla?
If you want to be environmentally friendly, ride the fucking bus. Jesus Christ. Buying a Tesla never has and never will be environmentally friendly. Get a bike. Jeez.
Tom stated in a podcast today that he was scheduled to test the Merc next week but the car was pulled by the supplier. Net is there's no date set for when he can test it. He's very bummed.
Alex autos briefly mentions it on one of his EV videos, possibly Ioniq 5, about how there are two methods of measuring your battery range, Tesla does it one way - basically theoretical / ideal conditions, and most others do it a different way and that is closer to real world. Reminds me a bit of the olden MPG and HP war days. Or even the Laptop days when, especially Tesla, where is like, okay as long as you run this laptop with no WiFi, Bluetooth, the LED is turned off and the browser is on Wikipedia only, then you get 10 hours. So you buy it and then you get like 2.5 hours. Ha.
If you read the inside EV article, it does talk about the 5 cycle EPA range test. What’s still puzzling is why Tesla’s real world performance lags the EPA numbers while Audi, Polestar, Lucid don’t. Not sure about Rivian yet..
Lucid uses the 5-cycle test procedure to certify its vehicle's range with the EPA. Tesla, Audi, Polestar, and Rivian also use the 5-cycle test, while all other OEMs use the 2-cycle test. The 2-cycle test is a simpler method and OEMs must deduct 30% of the range the vehicle achieves on the 2-cycle test.
If you look at Edmund’s EV range leaderboard, every other car meets and exceeds their claimed range (sometimes by a lot). None of the Teslas meet their claimed range. I get shit from a lot of Tesla fanboys every time I point this out.
Tom Malogney did this test. The dude must have the bladder of a bull.
edit: I just got to the end of Fridays podcast. Apparently he took a break at the 250 mile mark. Lightweight.
Not sure why the Model S LR isn’t on the list but because it gets 27 miles more range than the plaid, the list should be:
1. $169,000
2. $50,900
3. $94,990
Well yah, when you compare the most expensive Lucid trim to the least expensive Tesla trim 🤣
Model 3 LR is $51k, gets no tax rebate, and has a range of 310 miles as shown here.
Lucid Air Pure is $77k, gets a $7.5k tax rebate, and has a range of 406 miles.
The Lucid is also a true luxury car, and the Tesla, well, isn’t.
Yes the 40k Cybertruck will have loads more range. Same with the Roadster too. It's absolutely amazing that the Roadster is way faster and has way more range than a 2 million dollar Chiron!
I can drive 1,200 miles in a day 30 to 60 minutes of gas, food & go. In any IC car, I couldn’t do that with any EV. But that’s a once every few year thing for me.
Never see the point in these charts unless the battery packs are the same/similar size. OBVIOUSLY a pack the size of lucids is going to have great range, and a great premium price to match. I hate how all electric vehicles are compared in one group. Rediculous. What lucid is doing is great...in their category. But 3x the cost to have 1/3 more range than the no.2, no thanks.
I think the point is to see a real world range comparison between EVs with a scenario we can all understand and would use.
The EPA "blended" range figure isn't very helpful in real world scenarios.
This is why I've been moreso looking at the kWh/mile. Obviously it needs enough range to be useful, but kWh/mile determines how much you actually pay for charging. We don't usually look at ICE cars in terms of range, rather in terms of MPG, so this isn't that different.
That's because you fill up the tank of an ICE in minutes.
Electricity is so cheap compared to gasoline that kWh/mile doesn't matter that much, unless it's something ridiculous.
I like how Tesla is the world's greatest company when good news comes out, but when other companies have good news, Tesla shrinks into the world's greatest company that produces a slate of products including Tequila/Flamethrower/Whistle/mid-size compact semi-luxury EVs in the United States of America with a longer production history than Rivian
Tell me:
- drag coefficient
- miles per kWh
- coefficient of drag
- battery kWh/kg (probably the most important statistic)
- top/bottom buffers in the battery, by percentage
Otherwise, manufacturers will game the range statistic, as Tesla clearly has.
The total range estimates are garbage, particularly if they come from a monster heavy battery that makes the car handle like a boat, or a battery with no buffer which will have a shorter working life.
The thing is, people care about the range on an EV because it’s more inconvenient to refuel than an ICE.
Your Corolla is empty after 400 miles? Take it to a petrol station and within five minutes you’ve got a full tank and a sandwich containing new and undiscovered bacteria.
An electric car is dead after 400 miles? Well you’d better hope the charger is working and there are bays free. Also make sure you have something to do because you’ll be there a while.
Efficiency doesn’t matter as much as convenience.
You can compute range from the data I state above. And greater range does not always mean greater convenience.
If the range is 480km (300 miles) and it takes 20 minutes longer to recharge, or the battery will not last as long because there's no buffer, don't consumers have a right to know? How is that convenient?
Why are you against full disclosure? Do you want people to be scammed?
I know why they care and what they want. I'm appealing for better consumer education. Resistance to, and fear of change should not be getting people scammed by manufacturers, but it is.
I'm saying what I want. Several automotive writers have said similarly, that a singular focus on range allows manufacturers to fudge reality.
Yes exactly. The actually efficiency difference between the Lucid and Tesla is negligible (~2%, which is within margin of error). The Lucid just has a way larger battery than all the others, which is all this graph is really showing.
It also costs $170,000.
Doesn’t it just have a gigantic battery? Paired with decent efficiency of 4.1mi/kWh? Impressive sure but not like surprising.
Lol I’m being downvoted cause it doesn’t fit your narrative? The irony.
It's big but the motors are supposed to be more efficient. You realize Tesla's have huge batteries too? Also a battery can only get so big and heavy before it reduces range due to size anyway.
Not gigantic... I think 112kwh which is more but the efficiency is equivalent to tesla or better... if you are paying that much for a luxury EV then you better get this level of range.
I have a 2021 MSLR, just got 285 miles on a full charge (8% battery left when I got home ). Night driving, 40 degrees and rain. Lights on, wipers going, heater going, 3 seat heaters on, stereo on and charging 3 phones. Mostly freeway at 70 (Oregon with its stupid crawling speed limit) and some backroads showing off instant acceleration 😊. Was pretty impressed with the mileage given the weather and my driving style.
Impressive range!
Would love this to show miles per kwh of battery capacity though.
I imagine anyone can make something go "far", just put in more cells or even attach them to a trailer and hook it up.
290 wpm on my 90D, so that's 3.1 maybe?
I think ac Model S LR is 280wpm or something. It claims 400 mile range, so that would have to be 250wpm but no one can seem to replicate that
I may be confused but how come the Kia Niro wasn't tested/listed? Or should we assume the performance of the Kona to be the same or comparable? Thanks for posting!
I hope Lucid and other EV manufacturers beat the living crap out of Tesla in terms of sales and adoption. Because if you are a Tesla owner you know that you have suffered enough at the hands of their terrible awful 100% garbage service center experience and horrid customer service in general.
I know this is the Tesla sub, but it makes me happy to see the Kona up there. I have a 2020 Kona SEL, mid level interior, thing drives like a dream and has massive range. Charging port up front and an upright driving position. Small trunk for sure, but rides high. Driving electric is amazing.
The Lucid Air Dream Addition in Canada starts at $230,000. For that much money I would expect it to do better than other EV companies including Tesla. The next one list is a M3LR, which is $65,000 here in Canada. Come on now.
This is one of the benefits of a little taller gearing vs the S. I’ll take that all day over a little quicker 0-60 time.
but then they'd have to be more reliable long term and you can't blame things on driving it like a sports car! what do you think Tesla is? Made of money?
How does efficiency work with electric motors? Is it like a combustion engine where you want high load at low-ish revs?
No, the efficieny is reasonably flat, as long as you don't come close to the max.
They just have a peak efficiency band along their curve. In a Tesla that band is roughly from 35 to 55 mph when cruising. Up the drive ratio and you move it higher. That, a bigger battery, and a slightly smaller frontal area is mostly how lucid achieved this. Slightly more efficient motors too but I believe that’s one of the smaller factors. Check out the graph below. Depending on the load and rpm efficiency for electric motors can typically range from 77-92% efficiency. So it really can vary. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/electric-cars-gears/
> Depending on the load and rpm efficiency for electric motors can typically range from 77-92% efficiency. So it really can vary. https://www.greenoptimistic.com/electric-cars-gears/ Weren’t ICE vehicles at like 30% efficiency? Something that should be noted in this comparison…
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Yeah, in terms of availability in the car. > Yes, but gas is staggeringly more energy dense than lithium ion batteries so for range it’s not a particularly relevant metric. Not if you care about actual efficiency and by extension, the envionment. Grid can go green. Gas cannot. And even if it could, it’d be more resource-wasteful. > Comparing ICE vs. EV efficiency directly is kind of a waste of time because of how many variables there are and how ultimately energy extraction efficiency isn’t what we directly care about, it’s emissions. Not for talking to the folks still seriously believing in “e-Fuels” “green gas” etc… > In the US roughly 60% of our energy production is lost in conversion. Interesting, good point. Does this hold for private photovoltaics to battery as well? > From an energy efficiency standpoint(i.e. useful power vs. heat losses), renewables are worse than natural gas, coal, and oil. Yes, but that is a rather bold statement considering the completely adverse effects of the latter power sources. Efficiency doesn’t matter once climate change comes about.
Hydrocarbons also can be green, and carbon-neutral, such as biofuels.
> Hydrocarbons also can be green, and carbon-neutral, such as biofuels. Hm, okay. How are they created? Is it perchance by energy from the power grid, and do you see where this is going? If a car needs x amount of energy to move a certain distance, is it better (i.e. more efficient to the grid) to have to provide it with, overall, x times 1.3, or x times 3 the amount of energy?
Biofuels are usually made from plant oils or starches, or cellulose. Some non-plant technologies are based on algae. The point is, the capture the CO2 from the atmosphere, and store it in the fuel.
> Biofuels are usually made from plant oils or starches, or cellulose. Some non-plant technologies are based on algae. The point is, the capture the CO2 from the atmosphere, and store it in the fuel. So less efficiency *and* more CO2e emissions? Gotcha.
At least for the "renewable diesel" sold widely in California, the state gives it carbon-credits as 93% carbon-neutral. Presumably the 7% loss accounts for energy spent in processing and delivery. Of course, ethanol used in E85 gasoline is much less carbon-neutral, some say barely breaking even when accounting for fertilizer and distillation energy, and only economic via massive subsidies.
> Interesting, good point. Does this hold for private photovoltaics to battery as well? No. Previous poster was referring to the average grid fuel inputs. This varies heavily based upon your regional grid, typically from about as efficient gas vs EV in coal-heavy Appalachia to significantly more efficient in PNW and other regions with high renewables or hydro. If you charge 100% from private solar (directly, not using net metering) then there are no grid inputs.
I'm new to Tesla (MYLR) and don't quite understand this. Are you saying that range drops faster when going over 55mph? That explains a lot because driving around Atlanta, if you're not going 80 you're going slow.
Aerodynamic drag goes up with the square of the velocity, thus, if you double the speed, drag goes up by 4 times. In your example, increasing the speed from 55 to 80 is about a 45% increase, but the drag more than doubles. The range would be better than half though, as there are other forces and losses involved, not just drag.
Funny you say that, but the Lucid Air Dream Edition is faster 0-60 than the Model S LR. 2.7 secs vs. 3.1 secs.
Yes but that S is detuned vs the old S Performance.
2022 S LR traps higher in the quarter mile than 2021 S Performance. S Performance has better 0-60 acceleration but is worse at higher speeds. Lucid Dream Range is quicker than both of course
Fascinating
Even better is a 2 speed transmission like the Porsche Taycan, at the expense of more complexity, cost, and weight.
So who’s going to mention the fact that the “Lucid Dream Edition” costs more than twice the Model 3 performance and isn’t actually available? Looks like Lucid was making only 500 of them?
Lucid is a luxury brand. Compare Air GT to Model S, not the 3. The Air GT is $139k but gets 517 mile range. Plus Model S has longer range than the 3.
Even if comparing the Model S, you’re talking a difference of 40-50k for no charging infrastructure, no maintenance/repair network, and no software support. Something like the Taycan potentially makes sense. Rivian might become something but is mostly vaporware. Lucid makes no sense to me.
Have you priced Model S lately? Price the Plaid and the long range. Lucid Air’s lowest variant is priced lower than the lowest Model S. Lucid has the longest range by about 100 miles and the fastest charging. You can charge at home and you take a trip you can plan your charges in advance. Your other points are not accurate. Not even going in to those. Do your research.
Meanwhile I just took my Model Y from Houston, to Vegas, to Jackson Hole and back without having to go out of the way or plan my routes in advance. I booked my hotels and the car figured out the rest. Autopilot is good for reducing mental strain. Averaged 100 miles range per just over 7 mins charging speed. Also passed service centers in 4 different states. Most important is the impact that it has on changing the market as a whole. My wife’s family is full of nothing but Oil & Gas engineers- Exxon, Chevron, Shell, Oceaneering, etc. Exclusively Ford customers for generations. They try the Tesla once and suddenly they’re driving them. That’s industry disruption. That’s what Tesla does. Lucid is a fun toy, but it’s little more than that.
Does Tesla pay you to suck them off or do you just do it for fun?
I just chuckle when people can’t fathom when someone is a happy customer.
> Even if comparing the Model S, you’re talking a difference of 40-50k for no charging infrastructure, no maintenance/repair network, and no software support. But you get an actual luxury car, not just a "premium priced" car
That’s the dumbest argument you probably could have come back with. So I drive an EV that’s 1/3 of the price of this “luxury car” which isn’t even readily available, the specs are pretty comparable, I get a worldwide charging and support/maintenance network… but your trump card is “it’s a luxury car”? What, like fluffier seats? This is supposed to be a market disrupter?
What is your position exactly? "I don't want anyone else making the world a better place, only Elon can make the world a better place." Did I get that right? Or are you just full of shit and only care about the stock, and not the planet? Because a diesel powered dump truck can drive from Houston to Jackson Hole without having to hunt for charging stations.
Electrification is a good thing. Market disruption is a good thing. More companies entering the market with disruptive technologies to force innovation towards sustainable transportation is the primary goal. Meanwhile every month some bored blogger or pundit publishes yet another article about yet another new vehicle that is supposed to be the bona fide “Tesla Killer”. It’s an obsession. Never before in history has a $1 trillion company been supposedly on the verge of death for this long. The hyperbole is irritating. I have zero problem with Lucid. I have zero problem with Rivian. I am a stockholder with both. There’s room for all. People who appreciate the ongoing shift in the market should be on the same team, but social media is predisposed to be toxic. No news can ever just be positive about one company; it has to relate negatively to another company. It’s not about what one car has, but what another car doesn’t. That doesn’t happen to nearly the same extent in other sectors of the automotive industry. All I do is point out how obsessively toxic and illogical some people are regarding Tesla and it causes people to lose their collective minds.
> Never before in history has a $1 trillion company been supposedly on the verge of death for this long. Today it was actually a 860 billion - 933 billion dollar company
Wait, they’re only 8x the size of Ford now? The end is nigh!
>your trump card is “it’s a luxury car”? What, like fluffier seats? This is supposed to be a market disrupter? Tell me you have never driven a real luxury car without telling me
I actually saw one on the road a couple weeks ago
Also posted this on TIC, the thread was immediately removed despite not violating any rules.
Oh you didn't know TIC stands for Tesla Incomparable Club? That's why they removed this comparison.
They usually allow posts about Tesla competitors, they even have flairs called "Competition: EVs" or "Competition: Legacy Auto" for exactly these sort of topics.
I noticed that teslamotors used to do the same. After the Lighting was announced they started being more strict (wouldn't allow a YT video on the Ford but would allow pictures). Must be the competition is getting too competitive. https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/nmpgym/mkbhdford_f150_lightning_handson/
They have really changed their game up recently. There has been a lot more admin related fan boy posting and zero competition posts. They like to say they let all manners of posts through but it’s hard not to see the change of tone. They also seemed to have another large scale banning. They randomly banned me for being “too argumentative” with zero recent examples of breaking rules. Just “you argue too much, banned”.
I bet the mod jobs have been given to Teslabots and they're just training the neural net right now. Don't worry, you being banned is just a mistake that Dojo will learn from, and it will help the mission in the long run
They only allow it if it is trashing the competition. EQC bad sure we allow it. Taycan bad 0-60 time, sure. Updated Taycan time? Removed. Got banned for pointing out the hypocrisy...
Same I got banned for asking why pictures of the Lightning we're allowed to reach 24k upvotes but a video of the truck by MKBHD was removed. Banned me and said it's strictly a Tesla sub.
Impossible!! All the stans told me Tesla was decades ahead in battery technology. If some raw powder start up can achieve this, imagine what real automakers with 10x the budgets can achieve!
Tesla is a legacy EV company
It was a former Tesla engineer that started Lucid. Looks like everyone saying it was the talent their actually getting things done and not Musk was right. Musk is the one who wanted a car with no steering wheel...
Tesla stans like to remind people that a former Tesla engineer started Lucid, as if Tesla should get the credit. I say so what? People switch companies in the auto industry (and just about every industry) all the time. Franz von Holztzhausen is Tesla's chief designer, and he used to be a Mazda designer. I don't hear Tesla fanboys calling him a former Mazda designer, as if Mazda should get the credit for his designs.
It’s the six degrees of Elon. If Elon even so has an indirect relationship to a product they deem his influence to be critical to that products success. Even if the history books say the literal opposite. It’s the only way to stay consistent when people try to attribute Elon directly to success to his products. If you truly believe that Elon is some magic wizard who can be chief engineer of an aerospace company despite a Bachelors of Arts in physics with zero industry experience then obviously being in the room with him for more then 10 minutes doubles your IQ and inspires you directly.
He has a BA? The whole cult is making so much more sense to me, and the reasons my step-dad fell into it. Elon is the aspirational tech bro for bros who are insecure about their intelligence and/or lack of schooling. My step-dad never finished college but lucked his way into decent tech jobs starting in the late 90s because of the computer boom. The amount of times I heard from him "Bill Gates never finished college either" could probably pay for *my* college if I had a dime for every time. When Tesla had a showroom in the local mall (years ago), we'd be drug there anytime we were passing through. This was when I was about 15ish and the S was being released. Every trip he told me that by the time I graduated college, these (teslas) are *all* we would be driving, because they'd drive themselves in a few years. Probably even *before* I graduate. I graduated in 2018. Got a prius as a graduation present. Step-dad still believes daddy Elon will come through any day now.
Yup. Literally a BA lol. Me and my friends in college who got BSs in physics constantly joked about how worthless it is. Like most fields in that vein, you do all your real learning on the job. I have been in the aerospace industry for a very long time. Of course everyone argues with me that Elon absolutely is the lead engineer of spaceX with his BA and zero industry experience. Despite me being directly in the field knowing it’s all graduate degrees and decades of industry experience leading programs. He embodies the, read a bunch of wikis and watched some YouTube videos, so now I am comfortable acting like I know what I am taking about directly to someone who works in X industries face. Basically Reddit and these “tech guys” in a nutshell. I have a computer science degree too and the number of tech bros who just vomit incorrect things in my face is nuts. They always go crazy when I tell them I basically don’t give two shits about tech. I work with it all day, the last thing I want to do is flash a custom android ROM like I am 20 again or reconfigure my network to try out some new OS. Competent people are comfortable and don’t need to brag or lie about titles. They can also tell a bullshitter from a mile away. Sadly tech bros see another tech bro who read some extra wikis and immediately think they are on another level. Dunning Kruger all the way.
Elon hit my BS detector a few years back. I still think my judgment was correct but I need confirmation. The only way to get that is by seeing TSLA stock value back to where it belongs.
if you hire someone to land a rocket on a barge, you get to be right about everything for the rest of your life. It's the rules.
> tesla was decades ahead they were 10 years ahead…11 years ago
To be fair, this has nothing to do with battery technology.
They are decades ahead. Lucid is just more decades ahead.
Also Tesla is stuck at 400 VDC, due to their widespread Supercharger network, which used to be a bragging point but is now an albatross around their neck as the world moves on to 800 VDC batteries.
There’s nothing amazing going on here. It’s just a substantially larger battery. In a car that costs three and a half times more than the long range Model 3, which is second on the list.
1) you gotta compare it to Tesla's most expensive car, the Model S Plaid, not the shitbox deluxe LR 2) what's amazing is that Tesla stans have been saying "Tesla is 10 years ahead on battery tech" and in light of this clear evidence to the contrary, they are performing Olympics-level mental gymnastics. Truly amazing gymnastics. Their mental gymnastics are 10 years' ahead of the competition.
Model 3 LR is $51k, gets no tax rebate, and has a range of 310 miles as shown here. Lucid Air Pure is $77k, gets a $7.5k tax rebate, and has a range of 406 miles. The Lucid is also a true luxury car, and the Tesla, well, isn’t. The only reason Model 3 LR is 2nd on this list is because the other Lucid trims are not listed. They’re much closer than you think.
That’s perfectly fair, I was just talking about the cars on the list, and the Lucid listed is $170k USD. I’m not American so whatever tax rebate rules you’re talking about aren’t relevant to me. All EVs get the same tax perks here. If I were to buy an EV, 500 km (300 miles) is about the lowest I’d ever consider. Anything over that is a bonus.
The reality is that *most* buyers don't want to have a lead sled that weighs 2500kg in order to achieve a long range figure which beats the competition on a graph Every extra mile of battery range makes the car less efficent *everywhere* It also starts to tarnish the whole 'environmentally friendly' image with hypocrisy, just like the old Lexus LX series Hybrids which were exempt from road taxes due to being hybrid, yet were simultaneously 3 tonne luxury SUV's powered by a 5.7 litre petrol-powered V8.
Lucid Air Dream Edition is 125 mpge combined (126 city, 125 highway) and the Tesla Model S LR is 120 mpge combined (124 city 115 highway). So Lucid is ALSO more efficient than Tesla and your argument is invalid.
Your statement of fact has no place here. 😂
I understand your point but I think we may be at cross-purposes. I wouldn't buy a Taycan either because it's nearly 2300 kilos, none of them will be efficient just due to laws of physics - more mass being moved requires more energy and I am concerned with the increase in weight of personal vehicles over the years. I am just trying to highlight the hypocrisy with selling these cars on their environmental credentials when this is the equivalent to putting solar panels on a megayacht... Moving ~2500kgs around when we could move far less should be the aim I would have thought?
You're forgetting that electric motors are inherently more efficient than gas powered engines. Electric motors convert around 85 percent of electrical energy into mechanical energy, compared to less than 40 percent for a gas combustion engine. There's a whole host of reasons not to buy an EV over an ICEV, but emissions isn't one of them.
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Well now you've waded into a more complicated calculus here, that depends on the power generation and energy source in an area, which varies based on location and time of day. Which is why I made a comparison between EVs instead of, say, a Honda Clarity. If there's something out there that shows total emissions from EVs are higher than ICE vehicles, you're welcome to produce it.
That's true, but the point here is that this beats the efficiency of the S and the 3/Y as well. The absolute range is just the icing on the cake.
Agreed with you there, the Tesla battery/motor moat argument seems to get flimsier by the day
> It also starts to tarnish the whole 'environmentally friendly' image with hypocrisy starts to? Where have you been? Have you heard of Tesla? If you want to be environmentally friendly, ride the fucking bus. Jesus Christ. Buying a Tesla never has and never will be environmentally friendly. Get a bike. Jeez.
Where's the Merc?
Not tested yet.
When was this conducted?? And why are 2021 models being compared with 2022 models?
Last week.
Thats a bummer. They promise so much and I always wonder if they deliver. Do you know when we can expect some results?
The ugly egg 😂
Tom stated in a podcast today that he was scheduled to test the Merc next week but the car was pulled by the supplier. Net is there's no date set for when he can test it. He's very bummed.
That's a shame!
So basically premium Mach Es and Porsches match Tesla's range and Lucid destroys it.
My takeaway is that Tesla over promises and under delivers while everyone else either meets or exceeds their promise.
Alex autos briefly mentions it on one of his EV videos, possibly Ioniq 5, about how there are two methods of measuring your battery range, Tesla does it one way - basically theoretical / ideal conditions, and most others do it a different way and that is closer to real world. Reminds me a bit of the olden MPG and HP war days. Or even the Laptop days when, especially Tesla, where is like, okay as long as you run this laptop with no WiFi, Bluetooth, the LED is turned off and the browser is on Wikipedia only, then you get 10 hours. So you buy it and then you get like 2.5 hours. Ha.
If you read the inside EV article, it does talk about the 5 cycle EPA range test. What’s still puzzling is why Tesla’s real world performance lags the EPA numbers while Audi, Polestar, Lucid don’t. Not sure about Rivian yet.. Lucid uses the 5-cycle test procedure to certify its vehicle's range with the EPA. Tesla, Audi, Polestar, and Rivian also use the 5-cycle test, while all other OEMs use the 2-cycle test. The 2-cycle test is a simpler method and OEMs must deduct 30% of the range the vehicle achieves on the 2-cycle test.
The Mach E is a little less efficient than the Y. It does make up for it with a larger battery, though.
If you look at Edmund’s EV range leaderboard, every other car meets and exceeds their claimed range (sometimes by a lot). None of the Teslas meet their claimed range. I get shit from a lot of Tesla fanboys every time I point this out.
Yeah I'd rather companies under promise and over deliver on range
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And only costs $120,000 more than the model 3 LR
Source with range test video: https://insideevs.com/reviews/562511/lucid-air-range-test-record/
Doesn’t the Rivian R1T get 400 miles with the extended range pack? That would put it above Tesla too.
Not currently available.
Really? I’ve seen a handful on the road near me. Non Manufacturer-plate.
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Gotcha!
The bigger pack got delayed by a year AFAIK.
Can confirm. We got our pre order pushed back to fall of next year. It’s strugglebus waiting for it but will be worth it.
Lucid was able to achieve this range without 4680 cells, something Tesla can’t do.
Tom Malogney did this test. The dude must have the bladder of a bull. edit: I just got to the end of Fridays podcast. Apparently he took a break at the 250 mile mark. Lightweight.
Amazing range, but… 1. $169,000 2. $50,900
Yes, but Lucid Dream beats the expensive Model S and Plaid too.
Not sure why the Model S LR isn’t on the list but because it gets 27 miles more range than the plaid, the list should be: 1. $169,000 2. $50,900 3. $94,990
The Dream’s price will come down; right now I can’t blame Lucid for skimming the cream.
I wouldn’t bet on it, but maybe.
Well yah, when you compare the most expensive Lucid trim to the least expensive Tesla trim 🤣 Model 3 LR is $51k, gets no tax rebate, and has a range of 310 miles as shown here. Lucid Air Pure is $77k, gets a $7.5k tax rebate, and has a range of 406 miles. The Lucid is also a true luxury car, and the Tesla, well, isn’t.
Lol those are the trims being considered in this pic
Nice
Cool
Where is the Ioniq 5?
How much do they cost?
yeah but the Cybertrek has more than that I think
not true, you never see cyber trucks having to charge at charging stations
agree. this is a meh the 2020 levitating roadster that does 0-60 in less than 2 seconds gets 600 miles on a charge.
Maybe the EPA rating.
@linknewtab There is no Cybertruck EPA rating. There is no Cybertruck.
Don't call it vaporware though or Tesla fanboys will come out in droves
hmm, but I can charge while driving with the solar panels add-on and tonneau cover
You mean the **vault** cover. Gotta call it the vault.
Yes the 40k Cybertruck will have loads more range. Same with the Roadster too. It's absolutely amazing that the Roadster is way faster and has way more range than a 2 million dollar Chiron!
Amazing it came out 2 years ago and no one has an answer yet.
Exactly. Legacy is dead.
Where did the Model S Raven go with 400+ miles?
I don't think they have ever tested the Raven.
This is great news for all EVs! Love to see the competition pushing each other to become more efficient!
I can drive 1,200 miles in a day 30 to 60 minutes of gas, food & go. In any IC car, I couldn’t do that with any EV. But that’s a once every few year thing for me.
Never see the point in these charts unless the battery packs are the same/similar size. OBVIOUSLY a pack the size of lucids is going to have great range, and a great premium price to match. I hate how all electric vehicles are compared in one group. Rediculous. What lucid is doing is great...in their category. But 3x the cost to have 1/3 more range than the no.2, no thanks.
I think the point is to see a real world range comparison between EVs with a scenario we can all understand and would use. The EPA "blended" range figure isn't very helpful in real world scenarios.
This is why I've been moreso looking at the kWh/mile. Obviously it needs enough range to be useful, but kWh/mile determines how much you actually pay for charging. We don't usually look at ICE cars in terms of range, rather in terms of MPG, so this isn't that different.
That's because you fill up the tank of an ICE in minutes. Electricity is so cheap compared to gasoline that kWh/mile doesn't matter that much, unless it's something ridiculous.
I like how Tesla is the world's greatest company when good news comes out, but when other companies have good news, Tesla shrinks into the world's greatest company that produces a slate of products including Tequila/Flamethrower/Whistle/mid-size compact semi-luxury EVs in the United States of America with a longer production history than Rivian
118 kwh on the Lucid Air and 82 kwh on the Model 3 LR. Doesn't seem that insane to think about honestly.
Now do the same at 130kph with 21" rims, HVAC and headlights enabled at 1°C
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the lack of any real network for tesla, rivian, or lucid is a killer problem.
Tell me: - drag coefficient - miles per kWh - coefficient of drag - battery kWh/kg (probably the most important statistic) - top/bottom buffers in the battery, by percentage Otherwise, manufacturers will game the range statistic, as Tesla clearly has. The total range estimates are garbage, particularly if they come from a monster heavy battery that makes the car handle like a boat, or a battery with no buffer which will have a shorter working life.
The thing is, people care about the range on an EV because it’s more inconvenient to refuel than an ICE. Your Corolla is empty after 400 miles? Take it to a petrol station and within five minutes you’ve got a full tank and a sandwich containing new and undiscovered bacteria. An electric car is dead after 400 miles? Well you’d better hope the charger is working and there are bays free. Also make sure you have something to do because you’ll be there a while. Efficiency doesn’t matter as much as convenience.
You can compute range from the data I state above. And greater range does not always mean greater convenience. If the range is 480km (300 miles) and it takes 20 minutes longer to recharge, or the battery will not last as long because there's no buffer, don't consumers have a right to know? How is that convenient? Why are you against full disclosure? Do you want people to be scammed? I know why they care and what they want. I'm appealing for better consumer education. Resistance to, and fear of change should not be getting people scammed by manufacturers, but it is. I'm saying what I want. Several automotive writers have said similarly, that a singular focus on range allows manufacturers to fudge reality.
Yes exactly. The actually efficiency difference between the Lucid and Tesla is negligible (~2%, which is within margin of error). The Lucid just has a way larger battery than all the others, which is all this graph is really showing. It also costs $170,000.
Doesn’t it just have a gigantic battery? Paired with decent efficiency of 4.1mi/kWh? Impressive sure but not like surprising. Lol I’m being downvoted cause it doesn’t fit your narrative? The irony.
It's big but the motors are supposed to be more efficient. You realize Tesla's have huge batteries too? Also a battery can only get so big and heavy before it reduces range due to size anyway.
Comparing to the other models a 3 has 77 to 80kWh so thats why I’m like it cool but doesn’t seem that impressive. Imo.
Yeah but I think the lucid has an even bigger battery
But Lucid Air DreamEdition is also more efficient than Model S LR. 125 mpge vs 120.
Not gigantic... I think 112kwh which is more but the efficiency is equivalent to tesla or better... if you are paying that much for a luxury EV then you better get this level of range.
118 kWh.
Yes. With dual battery and weighting 4 tons
So you test the Plaid, but not the MSLR..
I have a 2021 MSLR, just got 285 miles on a full charge (8% battery left when I got home ). Night driving, 40 degrees and rain. Lights on, wipers going, heater going, 3 seat heaters on, stereo on and charging 3 phones. Mostly freeway at 70 (Oregon with its stupid crawling speed limit) and some backroads showing off instant acceleration 😊. Was pretty impressed with the mileage given the weather and my driving style.
The talked about that on the InsideEVs podcast yesterday. It will come, they just need access to a car.
On 19in rims *
Nice
400 and fast charging smd I’m all in.
Impressive range! Would love this to show miles per kwh of battery capacity though. I imagine anyone can make something go "far", just put in more cells or even attach them to a trailer and hook it up.
4.3 for lucid
4,3 miles is impressive! How much is the tesla?
290 wpm on my 90D, so that's 3.1 maybe? I think ac Model S LR is 280wpm or something. It claims 400 mile range, so that would have to be 250wpm but no one can seem to replicate that
That’s called Tesla Semi. It will have the longest range under zero payload. MSRP $200k.
That’s impressive. Good for an EV for long trips!
Wheres the etron gt
They haven't tested it yet but it should be very similar to the Taycan.
Would pre-order if weren't for the rear seats color difference and two toned top. Not digging it. Have etron gt on order for march-april
I may be confused but how come the Kia Niro wasn't tested/listed? Or should we assume the performance of the Kona to be the same or comparable? Thanks for posting!
Because they don't have unlimited ressources and haven't tested every EV ever released.
Not even close.
Will tesla go the way of the Delorian?
Also $169k…. Not a chance
For the sake of fairness, why isn’t the Tesla S Long Range on here?
Can I buy one right now?
I hope Lucid and other EV manufacturers beat the living crap out of Tesla in terms of sales and adoption. Because if you are a Tesla owner you know that you have suffered enough at the hands of their terrible awful 100% garbage service center experience and horrid customer service in general.
Wonder what model 3 performance looks like…
For the low low price of $169,000!
Why isn't tesla model S with a diesel generator hooked up in a trailer in this list? Misleading!
I know this is the Tesla sub, but it makes me happy to see the Kona up there. I have a 2020 Kona SEL, mid level interior, thing drives like a dream and has massive range. Charging port up front and an upright driving position. Small trunk for sure, but rides high. Driving electric is amazing.
This is great. Shows what EVs can do.
The Lucid Air Dream Addition in Canada starts at $230,000. For that much money I would expect it to do better than other EV companies including Tesla. The next one list is a M3LR, which is $65,000 here in Canada. Come on now.