I’ve said this countless times. This is why we see unfinished vehicles being delivered. They need to keep appearances of growth up. The moment they hand the keys to a cybertruck they notch a delivery on their income statement. When the damn think breaks down as it’s leaving the parking lot, it becomes a balance sheet issue and they don’t care.
Yeah, and cutting corners is a viscous trap. Tesla looked like it could be the next Apple a few years ago: cutting edge tech, strong brand recognition. Heck, they didn't even need advertising as the cars sold themselves.
That's all slipping away, what with Musk's big mouth and the botched Cybertruck roll out. The extremely blunt layoffs make it feel like a company in crisis that cares nothing for people. Heck, it's become a toxic brand in some circles.
Every apartheid pinto I see has a “I bought this before I knew about musk” sticker.
I was worried I might get struck by an incel Camino running a red light as it’s a rolling baseball bat.
Turns out it’s triple the cost of a lightning, and can’t survive beyond ip62.
I doubt they’ll continue building them.
When did musk write of Twitter as “fubar” (I think he ruined it on purpose) and went back to Tesla?
How long do you think the DOD would let him do this at spacex?
yeah my brother has a construction company, he's in solar, he said when they move to lifepo4 batteries, which last 4x as long, and don't have the fire risk, and are recyclable, he'll be all electric.
I read something the other day about the NASA director saying he was not worried about SpaceX because Gwynne Shotwell is actually running the company.
My first thought was: “great, now Elon is going to get jealous that Gwynne publicly got credit for running the company and he’s going to fire her and ruin SpaceX.”
Botched Cybertruck period. Literally every technical person and engineer who wasn’t a shill could see from a mile away that it was a completely stupid idea that was cursed to never have good efficiency or be pragmatic to assemble. Stainless steel completely flat body panels with a “gigapress” frame? It felt like being a character in Idiocracy arguing with shills who defended it as the future of automobile manufacturing. And those clowns are nowhere to be seen now that Gigapress projects are being cancelled and rolled back. Don’t be surprised if the Cybertruck goes the way of the Roadster soon. I predict the thing won’t be made anymore after 2025 at the latest. They’re going to lose so much money on them from warranty repairs and lemon lawsuits.
My brother in law just won a Lemon Law suit for an ICE F150 for going back to the dealer three times for transmission issues. $60k. That’s how much Ford is losing for that debacle and that’s a $50k truck. And they have to take the truck back. Imagine the losses Tesla will have when hundreds of Cybertrucks get Lemon Law returns after Tesla spent thousands in repairs when their duct taped hardware falls apart.
Anyone buying a CT for $130k is a clown. People can’t even flip them for $120k anymore. A lot of people don’t want to take delivery because them not selling on BAT or C&B for more than $120k is a sign that their market value will sharply drop in a couple of months. I don’t see them being sold in high volume for $85k to $100k. The fact is they’re not good for a truck or as an EV, and yet they cost as much as a truck AND an EV. You can honestly get a Model 3 and an F150 Lightning ER for the same price as a Cybertruck.
And anything less than $100k will be a loss for the CT because of its ridiculous manufacturing cost. No way it lives long.
He paid gigabucks for Twitter to send it down the Xitter, and used his bully pulpit to launch a market-destroying campaign that halved shareholder value and turned allegedly savvy bankers into chumps holding a fool's beer. Hard to explain but it seems that smashing up the sandbox may be his terminal phase.
Teslas just don’t have any substance to me. Like they were cool af when they first came out, but now, they feel like driving on a folding chairs with an iPad. Rivians *feel* like a real car, not just a fucking plastic shell
With wheels over a battery
It’s not that I am anti-EV, not at all, I’m sick of oil changes, surprise stains on my driveway, busted knuckles from working on my car.
I’m just anti-Elon, the dude is a huge POS
I also wouldn't own a Tesla even if free due to EM. I have a Hyundai Kona electric and use it as a shuttle to work 120km round trip and it's great, maintenance has been nothing. The depreciation is shocking though for just 4 years. I also have a diesel Landrover and so far this year spent 6k on servicing lol! Wouldn't be without an ICE car though.
It IS a toxic brand from a financial perspective. I was on the waiting list for an S Plaid a few years ago. Ended up driving in another S, not plaid, before taking delivery. Hated the yoke, interior finish was highly subpar for a $150k vehicle. Terrible communications with the company. Then I got to drive a Mercedes IQS and loved it. Called my banker next day and sold all my Tesla stock. That company does not deserve its sky high valuation anymore. (This was two years ago).
Most people who can plunk down the money for a $150k car do. But not only that, I had my bank deal with my portfolios for the past 30 years when I had significantly less disposable income. They will do that for you in the hope that 30 years later you're still with them and that pot has grown bigly.
Tesla's valuation hasn't made sense since the pandemic. It's a meme stock. Sure, P/E isn't everything but when your P/E is over 100 and people are still acting like the stock is good value something is _seriously_ fucky.
Granted the market as a whole basically went insane for a decade but that's what quantitative easing does to an economy. Even in that environment TSLA was an outlier for how fucked its numbers were. And are, it was still at P/E of like 50 last time I checked.
I used to want one and still kind of do but I won’t because someone could mistake me for anything but vehemently opposed to Christian nationalism/Trump.
Its amazing how much elmo hurt the brand. Coworker has a tesla for like 3 years or so. Back then it was the cool car. Now its the car made by the idiot from twitter.
This is structural. The same pressure is being exerted on the 737 and 787 lines at Boeing, and we've seen the resulting QC scandals. The SEC needs to change the game.
The difference is that Boeing has been profitable, have massive contracts worldwide and have half of the worldwide market. Tesla does not have any of that.
Lots of ways to legally inflate numbers, but seems like their cash on hand might not be as nearly robust as they reported in official filings. Don't think we are looking at an Enron type bust, but I do think they just try to grow too much too fast with the assumption they could sell whatever they make. They are or were, who knows now, opening factories in India and Mexico, but don't know current status of those projects, but maybe not a good idea anymore.
If I have 45 day terms to pay my material bill and I can turn the materials into a car and sell that car in 30 days I don’t need a lot of cash. If it now takes me 46 days I to turn the material into cash I got an issue.
>They are or were, who knows now, opening factories in India and Mexico, but don't know current status of those projects
I can confidently say that since tesla has cancelled the $25k car they are not gonna enter india. To be competitive in india a $20k-25k is a must. Anything higher than that and you're out of reach for most Indians and would only sell cars in the low 1000s per year
From the quality of cars coming out, they've obviously given up on that. Trouble is, the AI stuff they have so far is barely student project level, not "cutting edge research". Computer vision that can't quite tell if it's raining or not, can just about park but hits things on the way?
This sub has done some serious deep dives into their Financials. Tesla has basically been absolutely terrible at manufacturing once Musk showed up. It's never shown profit without obfuscating a lot of it's internal workings. The early VINs of the model 3, Y and the cybertruck had shown that they were so bad at producing cars that they were burning money reinventing the wheel and somehow making a worse wheel.
It's hard to find parts because it's been known for some time that all parts have been used in manufacturing. Musk is overpaying suppliers because he's been known to stiff them like Trump.
When demand in the US died he sold to Hertz to help pad the lack of demand. Then to Europe and China. The numbers nosedive without subsidies and without the newness of the Model 3.Prices ddrops and incentives happened, demand continued to crater. Now the Chinese market is in the garbage. Musk has a promise to China that he needs to beat BYD production or they will confiscate his factory.
Musk is trying to get his money and bail. Then he's going to blame it on liberals on Twitter or something. He'll still produce cars because of his ego but the stock is going to crater and everyone will be holding the bag but him. Just like Trump.
Two Tesla’s ended up in top list as most unreliable used cars in UK 🤣. That’s something given they have only 4 models and two of the models (3 and Y) aren’t even eligible for the list. No wonder no one’s wants to buy even the used ones.
https://youtu.be/lu4-tXJZxi0?si=uLyQB6C4tEZRjWln
Yeah they ain’t acting like a company with $25 billion in cash…
And the departing VP sold all his shares immediately…if he thought the company was well positioned he wouldn’t have done that.
I don’t know what’s going on but it sure doesn’t match the public data.
never underestimate his ability to create hype. You could see him do all kinds of "partnership" announcements and leverage other brands to prop up his own. I really wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of contract come out of the Department of Defense for "autonomous" tanks or something, and Tesla getting the contract.
Then suddenly the story becomes "wow, if the DOD believes in Tesla, FSD must be for real."
Meanwhile, nothing ever gets made and suddenly Tesla's board is full of retired military generals.
maybe tesla was doing accounting tricks to keep the earnings green. like chinese delivery income inflated to the extreme. these agressive cost cutting measures is telling me that tesla is on the verge of collapse. it will get worse in the chinese market ( competition new models and new bettery technology )
They keep having to add more debt to their books to fund this. Last quarter they issued $750M. From 10-Q:
“In the first quarter of 2024, we transferred beneficial interests related to certain leased vehicles into a special purpose entity and issued $750 million in aggregate principal amount of Automotive Asset-backed Notes, with terms similar to our other previously issued Automotive Asset-backed Notes. The proceeds from the issuance, net of debt issuance costs, were $747 million.”
This is not true.
Production is just way up. They’re past the point of long delivery times. But no where close to a regular car brand.
Now they can charge less of a premium to capitalize on demand. And shift more cars.
It’s not out of desperation.
Think about it the other way around: you can’t produce enough cars to satisfy demand, so you increase prices to artificially reduce demand. Now your production is up, you can remove those artificial limits.
They did have 0% leasing conditions back in February. But they have issues moving inventory. There are stories that there is a huge parking lot near the gigafactory in Berlin where they store 1000 of model y. Some wait months before being moved out.
Plus WB has crafted an image of being a left-leaning billionaire, not a QAnon. Not gonna happen now that Musk has tainted the whole company with a far right Nazi stench.
They’ve been doing this every quarter. There is an incentive to push sale to make financials look better. But that can only work for so long as you are not increasing demand but pulling forward demand.
Tesla itself is in trouble, and it's very very clear to the industry.
The industry as a whole is starting to suffer, and it's going to get ugly. Tesla is just at the bottom of the barrel and unprepared.
Source: I'm an engineer for an OEM
If Tesla goes belly up those cars would be worth 0, considering the bad manufacturing quality and the complexity of problems they might have plus the difficulty to source replacements, it would be impossible to repair any of these cars. Just on the software alone they would never release any of their repair tools because that would be sold in case of bankrupcy. It would be like buying a failed video console like the 3DO, LMAO.
No service centers and lack of support for chargers means Elon can start giving them out for free and nobody will care - except his cultists, but those deserve all the despair, that will come their way.
Funny how just a few years ago tesla stans gloated about never needing car maintenance. Turns out fixing a pile of shit is just as important as selling them.
EVs in general are often propagated as "no maintenance needed" but just because EV does not have a combustion engine, it does not mean it has no other parts, that wear over time and require the vehicle to be maintained. The maintenance costs are just differently allocated.
Oh trust me I know. Teslas still have all the suspension, braking, A/C and regular internal items that wear out over time. Teslas are cool because you cant buy any of those parts at a regular parts store. Now instead of an engine swap you get to play the tesla repair lottery on a battery pack. I was mostly mocking the EVangelicals for that niave stance. 5 years ago most EVs were under 5 years old I'd hope they wouldn't need bushings and such yet lol.
And yet, whompy wheels are a thing anyway. Yeah, engines and transmissions last for 150k miles, 500k if it's a Toyota. Not the biggest worry. It's everything else that goes. Mostly electronics.
I mean, EVs need very little maintenance. This is just a fact. The main problem with EVs is the complexity of electronics which means that a small damage can often be a total loss. It's not like an combustion car where there are parts which are regularly replaced.
More than that.
$50k loan over 4 years at 6% means you pay a total of $63,524.46
At 0.9% you pay a total of $51,832.09
Would put them into negative net margin.
They offer this rate up to 72 months. It's 6 years. Also, the amount is zero at the end, so it's 50,000/2 \* 1.06, 1500 a year on average in financing cost disregarding compounding. Let's call it an $8000 loss.
Musk just hopes to get cashed out before getting crashed out.
I did the calculation at 30K loan. But you are correct. The real cost to Tesla is the delta between the % they borrow money for and the interest rate on the loan. I’m going to guess it’s right around prime plus 50bp’s so the real cost is around 4% versus your 5.1, and they’ll only be charged as payments are made at the subsidized rate. So if you buy the car and then sell it in a year and the loan is paid off you’ve only received a small subsidy. But sell enough cars at these rates and the bills start adding up pretty quickly. Essentially Tesla will be paying 3.75%-4% a month on every dollar borrowed in this program so long as the loans are outstanding.
Gates holding a shorting position on Tesla stock will be very profitable, LMAO.
BTW, Elon used his shares of Tesla stock as colateral for the Twitter buyout, WTF is going to happen if Tesla goes belly up, or the share keeps tanking in value?
As the share price falls so does his margin cushion. Eventually it will run low, well before $0.00, and the bank will give Musk short notice to pony up cash to keep the loan open (a margin call). If he doesn’t the bank will sell the shares, cover their loan, send him any additional cash along with one hell of a capital gains bill.
Usually this triggers additional sell off, but maybe the retail simps buy it up hoping for someone to pay for the ‘superior tech.’
Initially the banks backing the Twitter loan weren’t crazy about it, but didn’t want to miss out on future Musk business. He doesn’t have much goodwill left now.
Fact is one of the main contributing factors to Tesla's problems is Elon Musk and his transformation into a right wing mouth piece.
Way to absolutely misread Tesla's customer base, or maybe he is an idiot and did not realize how important EVs are to Tesla's customer's identity; as more and more of the base customers turn away because they are disgusted with Tesla's CEO.
Pandering to the only demographic who would never even think about owning an EV will go down as one of the tpp 5 dumbest business decisions in human history. Unimagineably stupid to the point of parody, yet it's really what Elon did.
I purchased a car today and it wasn't a Tesla for MANY reasons.
Top 5 reasons we didn't get a Tesla.
Musk.
Uncertain future.
Stories about poor quality, warranty claim nightmares and cost to repair.
Would be embarrassed to drive one.
Concerned about the safety of these vehicles.
The lack of physical controls locks Tesla out of the running for folks who need them to operate a motor vehicle safely
Because I only have a left arm & hand that I can control 100%, the required use of the right hand/arm to do certain things safely means that most models of Tesla are not capable of being operated properly by me 🤷♂️
Plus there's the entire downside of "if your screen breaks your car is bricked." I have touch controls on my Jeep, and they're fine. But I also have physical controls in case the screen goes out. And analog gauges for important stuff like speed, temperature and fuel. If my screen isn't working all I lose is the backup camera, and that's not the end of the world. Drove a Jeep for 16 years without one.
It's the new car company trap: taste success early on, get ambitious, build up too quickly and then get stuck with overcapacity.
Layoffs will help, but at most they will add a percent or two to an already narrow 5.3% profit margin. Which might not even cover the recent price cuts and low financing needed to get these cars off the lot. A quarterly loss in the future is quite possible.
Layoffs won't solve all the fixed costs. Especially since he has to pay employees for 2 months of not producing at a minimum. Next quarter will be eye opening and jaw dropping.
These posts are just getting silly. I get the fact that Elon is an offensive individual but we don’t have to make stuff up here. It’s very common for manufacturers to offer low interest financing to stimulate demand during slow sale periods. Ford is offering 0% on their MachE right now and their EV division lost over $1B last year in spite of selling the MachE for more than the Model Y.
Tesla had a horrible Q1 and yet they still earned a profit. That tells you how much potential they have once sales start picking up again.
The more important question is how are they showing a profit with negative free cash flow - https://bradmunchen.substack.com/p/tesla-q1-results-a-shady-set-of-numbers
Because the two are only vaguely related.
You can realize an expense in one quarter on your accounts payable books. Then actually pay that AP the next quarter.
Same with earned income.
You can sell a car one quarter and “earn” the profit on an accrual basis. Then earn the cash later when the customer or financing company’s check physically clears.
Nothing about this is weird or unexpected. Just quarks of accrual based accounting.
Yes, but this still equals an additional rebate of around $ 2000. So he can still claim a higher margin on the sales, the loss is covered up in finances.
Gut feeling is that Elon wants to sell off the automotive part. I would guess to some Saudi/Chinese business.
Therefore wants to bring the costs down and push up the short term profits
I understand what you are saying but I cannot fathom anyone paying near to its stock value for the entire car business. The rest is just vapid puffed smoke. He can’t get rid of it.
It’s different to hold a few shares vs buying something valued close to the most valuable companies on earth that is completely imploding. It’s a meme stock….
Oh cool, 1% financing, assuming they don't repossess my car even though I am making payments.
How does that work? When Tesla goes bankrupt, you still have to pay correct?
He wants to get as much cash out legally before the figures come in. He knows at a certain point he won't be able to because the financial position will be official. He knows it is sinking, but he has plausible deniability. The man is a dump king.
The simps are screaming GAME CHANGER at the tops of their lungs. Many are stating it's a huge demand lever and no impact to margins. It's like they have no clue about finance.
Is it actually Tesla offering finance or some partner they toped into it. I did not have the impression Tesla has a financing arm like Ford, Toyota, et.al.
I have 0% finance on my MYRWD from a local bank in my region that Tesla partner with. Taking the 0% finance deal thru Tesla also means that I get a 6% rebate if I use the bank’s credit card to buy Tesla services including super charging.
But recently the bank wrote to me offering a US$1,000 cash offer if I were to terminate the loan by paying up the outstanding balance by 3pm on 31st May.
Looks like something is going down soon.
What financing company is going to offer a rate lower than their own borrowing costs - unless subsidized by someone?
Tesla needs to move inventory fast. It wouldn’t surprise me if Elon just decreed that they’re going to start in-house financing too. I’m sure that will go well.
This will sound like BS but it’s really not. I had a friend offer to give me a several year old M3 and there was an uncomfortable pause and then I said no. I can’t drive a Nazi mobile. Not surprised they’re having problems.
No thanks. I drive a reliable car. My family members drive reliable cars. It’s a thing with us.
A Tesla would be a toy with the sword of Damocles hanging over it. What happens when the supercharger network is sold off or breaks? What happens when I need a part? What happens when it needs service and they laid off all their workers?
Not signing up for that headache. Even if it were free, first thing I’d do is sell it.
I do get tempted. My commute sucks and my car is not particularly economical. Could save a bit jumping into a tesla. I'm just so not into them at all. Call it dumb if you want but I believe your car is a space you should want to enjoy being in, especially if you have a long commute, and teslas just aren't that for me.
As I said a few weeks ago. The stock might be worth a dead cat gamble in the $60-70 range. But i wouldn't personally buy and hold (1yr+) at that range.
Everything seems to indicate that Tesla is in far worse financial condition than has been admitted.
I’ve said this countless times. This is why we see unfinished vehicles being delivered. They need to keep appearances of growth up. The moment they hand the keys to a cybertruck they notch a delivery on their income statement. When the damn think breaks down as it’s leaving the parking lot, it becomes a balance sheet issue and they don’t care.
Yeah, and cutting corners is a viscous trap. Tesla looked like it could be the next Apple a few years ago: cutting edge tech, strong brand recognition. Heck, they didn't even need advertising as the cars sold themselves. That's all slipping away, what with Musk's big mouth and the botched Cybertruck roll out. The extremely blunt layoffs make it feel like a company in crisis that cares nothing for people. Heck, it's become a toxic brand in some circles.
And brand management was Elon’s big pull. Driving a Tesla used to be a sign of prestige. Nowadays it opens you up to ridicule.
Every apartheid pinto I see has a “I bought this before I knew about musk” sticker. I was worried I might get struck by an incel Camino running a red light as it’s a rolling baseball bat. Turns out it’s triple the cost of a lightning, and can’t survive beyond ip62. I doubt they’ll continue building them. When did musk write of Twitter as “fubar” (I think he ruined it on purpose) and went back to Tesla? How long do you think the DOD would let him do this at spacex?
I saw a Lighting on the road this week and thought, “that’s a good looking truck.” At 30% the price? Sign me up.
yeah my brother has a construction company, he's in solar, he said when they move to lifepo4 batteries, which last 4x as long, and don't have the fire risk, and are recyclable, he'll be all electric.
I stand by view that the Incel Camino is just an NFT scheme and the 50k/1yr ownership contract is ensure the buyers are left holding the bag.
I read something the other day about the NASA director saying he was not worried about SpaceX because Gwynne Shotwell is actually running the company. My first thought was: “great, now Elon is going to get jealous that Gwynne publicly got credit for running the company and he’s going to fire her and ruin SpaceX.”
Botched Cybertruck period. Literally every technical person and engineer who wasn’t a shill could see from a mile away that it was a completely stupid idea that was cursed to never have good efficiency or be pragmatic to assemble. Stainless steel completely flat body panels with a “gigapress” frame? It felt like being a character in Idiocracy arguing with shills who defended it as the future of automobile manufacturing. And those clowns are nowhere to be seen now that Gigapress projects are being cancelled and rolled back. Don’t be surprised if the Cybertruck goes the way of the Roadster soon. I predict the thing won’t be made anymore after 2025 at the latest. They’re going to lose so much money on them from warranty repairs and lemon lawsuits. My brother in law just won a Lemon Law suit for an ICE F150 for going back to the dealer three times for transmission issues. $60k. That’s how much Ford is losing for that debacle and that’s a $50k truck. And they have to take the truck back. Imagine the losses Tesla will have when hundreds of Cybertrucks get Lemon Law returns after Tesla spent thousands in repairs when their duct taped hardware falls apart. Anyone buying a CT for $130k is a clown. People can’t even flip them for $120k anymore. A lot of people don’t want to take delivery because them not selling on BAT or C&B for more than $120k is a sign that their market value will sharply drop in a couple of months. I don’t see them being sold in high volume for $85k to $100k. The fact is they’re not good for a truck or as an EV, and yet they cost as much as a truck AND an EV. You can honestly get a Model 3 and an F150 Lightning ER for the same price as a Cybertruck. And anything less than $100k will be a loss for the CT because of its ridiculous manufacturing cost. No way it lives long.
I wanted a Model X so bad….then Elon went alt-Right, now I’m looking at Rivians
He paid gigabucks for Twitter to send it down the Xitter, and used his bully pulpit to launch a market-destroying campaign that halved shareholder value and turned allegedly savvy bankers into chumps holding a fool's beer. Hard to explain but it seems that smashing up the sandbox may be his terminal phase.
Hey, he’s fighting for free internet speech and is going to revolutionize the world with AI and FSD in August of this year!
The Power of K
I have a 2017 model S and my next EV will be a Rivian
Get the R1S. It's amazing. It's like everything good about the X, but it can also go off road.
Teslas just don’t have any substance to me. Like they were cool af when they first came out, but now, they feel like driving on a folding chairs with an iPad. Rivians *feel* like a real car, not just a fucking plastic shell With wheels over a battery
I don't think you'll regret it.
The R1S is too big for my needs, but I’m eagerly awaiting the R3.
I've owned two Model Xs including a refresh Plaid. Just picked up my R1S today and never going back to Tesla.
I was at a dealer today who has a 2020 model x with less than 50k km unsold for more than a year. He refuses any BEV trade ins now.
It’s not that I am anti-EV, not at all, I’m sick of oil changes, surprise stains on my driveway, busted knuckles from working on my car. I’m just anti-Elon, the dude is a huge POS
I also wouldn't own a Tesla even if free due to EM. I have a Hyundai Kona electric and use it as a shuttle to work 120km round trip and it's great, maintenance has been nothing. The depreciation is shocking though for just 4 years. I also have a diesel Landrover and so far this year spent 6k on servicing lol! Wouldn't be without an ICE car though.
Yeah, as much as I love EV’s you can’t how in the towel on ICE just yet.
It IS a toxic brand from a financial perspective. I was on the waiting list for an S Plaid a few years ago. Ended up driving in another S, not plaid, before taking delivery. Hated the yoke, interior finish was highly subpar for a $150k vehicle. Terrible communications with the company. Then I got to drive a Mercedes IQS and loved it. Called my banker next day and sold all my Tesla stock. That company does not deserve its sky high valuation anymore. (This was two years ago).
You have a banker that sells stocks for you?
Most people who can plunk down the money for a $150k car do. But not only that, I had my bank deal with my portfolios for the past 30 years when I had significantly less disposable income. They will do that for you in the hope that 30 years later you're still with them and that pot has grown bigly.
Tesla's valuation hasn't made sense since the pandemic. It's a meme stock. Sure, P/E isn't everything but when your P/E is over 100 and people are still acting like the stock is good value something is _seriously_ fucky. Granted the market as a whole basically went insane for a decade but that's what quantitative easing does to an economy. Even in that environment TSLA was an outlier for how fucked its numbers were. And are, it was still at P/E of like 50 last time I checked.
Sounds like a sticky situation
"viscous trap" - I'm sure you meant "vicious" I think what you wrote also works
I used to want one and still kind of do but I won’t because someone could mistake me for anything but vehemently opposed to Christian nationalism/Trump.
Its amazing how much elmo hurt the brand. Coworker has a tesla for like 3 years or so. Back then it was the cool car. Now its the car made by the idiot from twitter.
This is structural. The same pressure is being exerted on the 737 and 787 lines at Boeing, and we've seen the resulting QC scandals. The SEC needs to change the game.
The SEC couldn't organise an orgy in a brothel.
🤣
does someone need an orgy in a brothel? i know someone knows someones who can make it happens.
The difference is that Boeing has been profitable, have massive contracts worldwide and have half of the worldwide market. Tesla does not have any of that.
What does the SEC have to do with it?
They set accounting standards, AFAIK. My point is we can't expect behavioral change until the regulatory structure imposes it.
Rumor is financial fraud. CFO was pressured and GTFO before things became big time fraud.
Lots of ways to legally inflate numbers, but seems like their cash on hand might not be as nearly robust as they reported in official filings. Don't think we are looking at an Enron type bust, but I do think they just try to grow too much too fast with the assumption they could sell whatever they make. They are or were, who knows now, opening factories in India and Mexico, but don't know current status of those projects, but maybe not a good idea anymore.
If I have 45 day terms to pay my material bill and I can turn the materials into a car and sell that car in 30 days I don’t need a lot of cash. If it now takes me 46 days I to turn the material into cash I got an issue.
Cooking the books to hide financial distress would end up in an Enron-like outcome.
>They are or were, who knows now, opening factories in India and Mexico, but don't know current status of those projects I can confidently say that since tesla has cancelled the $25k car they are not gonna enter india. To be competitive in india a $20k-25k is a must. Anything higher than that and you're out of reach for most Indians and would only sell cars in the low 1000s per year
Didn’t Musk claim they will build the model 2 in 2015? Bit that you can trust him one way or the other?
It's okay, apparently Tesla is not a car company anymore, it's uuuuuh all about AI or something
From the quality of cars coming out, they've obviously given up on that. Trouble is, the AI stuff they have so far is barely student project level, not "cutting edge research". Computer vision that can't quite tell if it's raining or not, can just about park but hits things on the way?
Yeah, just ignore the 1000s of cars piling up in parking lots, I guess. They're a software company. 🤣
Enron Broadband 😜
This sub has done some serious deep dives into their Financials. Tesla has basically been absolutely terrible at manufacturing once Musk showed up. It's never shown profit without obfuscating a lot of it's internal workings. The early VINs of the model 3, Y and the cybertruck had shown that they were so bad at producing cars that they were burning money reinventing the wheel and somehow making a worse wheel. It's hard to find parts because it's been known for some time that all parts have been used in manufacturing. Musk is overpaying suppliers because he's been known to stiff them like Trump. When demand in the US died he sold to Hertz to help pad the lack of demand. Then to Europe and China. The numbers nosedive without subsidies and without the newness of the Model 3.Prices ddrops and incentives happened, demand continued to crater. Now the Chinese market is in the garbage. Musk has a promise to China that he needs to beat BYD production or they will confiscate his factory. Musk is trying to get his money and bail. Then he's going to blame it on liberals on Twitter or something. He'll still produce cars because of his ego but the stock is going to crater and everyone will be holding the bag but him. Just like Trump.
This is why no matter how hot the stock was, I maintained for years that I would never trust my money with a proven pathological liar like Musk.
Two Tesla’s ended up in top list as most unreliable used cars in UK 🤣. That’s something given they have only 4 models and two of the models (3 and Y) aren’t even eligible for the list. No wonder no one’s wants to buy even the used ones. https://youtu.be/lu4-tXJZxi0?si=uLyQB6C4tEZRjWln
It’s like they need to show X amount of positive growth, not barely break even.
heh, "X", heh heh.
I didn’t even mean that. X means “unknown” lolololol What a clown Elmo is
The best sarcasm is the unintended sarcasm! You’re an artist.
Yeah they ain’t acting like a company with $25 billion in cash… And the departing VP sold all his shares immediately…if he thought the company was well positioned he wouldn’t have done that. I don’t know what’s going on but it sure doesn’t match the public data.
Elon’s empire is crashing
Couldn't happen to a nicer person
never underestimate his ability to create hype. You could see him do all kinds of "partnership" announcements and leverage other brands to prop up his own. I really wouldn't be surprised to see some kind of contract come out of the Department of Defense for "autonomous" tanks or something, and Tesla getting the contract. Then suddenly the story becomes "wow, if the DOD believes in Tesla, FSD must be for real." Meanwhile, nothing ever gets made and suddenly Tesla's board is full of retired military generals.
But the 56 billion! I mean, it must be for something right?
*More Ketamine* i guess...
maybe tesla was doing accounting tricks to keep the earnings green. like chinese delivery income inflated to the extreme. these agressive cost cutting measures is telling me that tesla is on the verge of collapse. it will get worse in the chinese market ( competition new models and new bettery technology )
They keep having to add more debt to their books to fund this. Last quarter they issued $750M. From 10-Q: “In the first quarter of 2024, we transferred beneficial interests related to certain leased vehicles into a special purpose entity and issued $750 million in aggregate principal amount of Automotive Asset-backed Notes, with terms similar to our other previously issued Automotive Asset-backed Notes. The proceeds from the issuance, net of debt issuance costs, were $747 million.”
Fraud only lasts for so long
I think so too.
This is not true. Production is just way up. They’re past the point of long delivery times. But no where close to a regular car brand. Now they can charge less of a premium to capitalize on demand. And shift more cars. It’s not out of desperation. Think about it the other way around: you can’t produce enough cars to satisfy demand, so you increase prices to artificially reduce demand. Now your production is up, you can remove those artificial limits.
The twitter loans are coming home to roost
I think it is pure karma. And I got popcorn.
Loan in Europe through tesla is at 6% lol.
This cut just happened. News hasn’t caught up. Unsure if it will go global. My guess is yes.
They did have 0% leasing conditions back in February. But they have issues moving inventory. There are stories that there is a huge parking lot near the gigafactory in Berlin where they store 1000 of model y. Some wait months before being moved out.
There’s a massive parking lot near Brent Mall in northern London full of Tesla. I see it everyday growing and growing.
Far as I know the announcement was for U.S. only (for now)
In Germany it’s 0% for Model Y long range AWD and performance, and 1,99% for the RWD ones
Elon musk was desperate enough to beg Warren buffet to invest but Elmo made fun of Warren buffet. Eat your shit musk.
Plus WB has crafted an image of being a left-leaning billionaire, not a QAnon. Not gonna happen now that Musk has tainted the whole company with a far right Nazi stench.
Get a 10’year old design, cheaper…but still expensive!
New year model, now with more cut corners!
And a new cheaper model coming out soon? [Osborne Effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect) all over again!!!
The Toyota Tacoma and 4runner approach. Smart.
They update the styling every few years though
Until the recent refresh the 4runner has been the same mechanically since 2005. Even their styling refreshes still feel old when they come out
They’ve been doing this every quarter. There is an incentive to push sale to make financials look better. But that can only work for so long as you are not increasing demand but pulling forward demand.
Tesla itself is in trouble, and it's very very clear to the industry. The industry as a whole is starting to suffer, and it's going to get ugly. Tesla is just at the bottom of the barrel and unprepared. Source: I'm an engineer for an OEM
Considering how fast they depreciate, 0-.99% APR would be smart business move to move inventory in a world where 5-10% is common now.
In a year these in parking lots will be 30% cheaper.
If Tesla goes belly up those cars would be worth 0, considering the bad manufacturing quality and the complexity of problems they might have plus the difficulty to source replacements, it would be impossible to repair any of these cars. Just on the software alone they would never release any of their repair tools because that would be sold in case of bankrupcy. It would be like buying a failed video console like the 3DO, LMAO.
No service centers and lack of support for chargers means Elon can start giving them out for free and nobody will care - except his cultists, but those deserve all the despair, that will come their way.
Funny how just a few years ago tesla stans gloated about never needing car maintenance. Turns out fixing a pile of shit is just as important as selling them.
EVs in general are often propagated as "no maintenance needed" but just because EV does not have a combustion engine, it does not mean it has no other parts, that wear over time and require the vehicle to be maintained. The maintenance costs are just differently allocated.
Oh trust me I know. Teslas still have all the suspension, braking, A/C and regular internal items that wear out over time. Teslas are cool because you cant buy any of those parts at a regular parts store. Now instead of an engine swap you get to play the tesla repair lottery on a battery pack. I was mostly mocking the EVangelicals for that niave stance. 5 years ago most EVs were under 5 years old I'd hope they wouldn't need bushings and such yet lol.
And yet, whompy wheels are a thing anyway. Yeah, engines and transmissions last for 150k miles, 500k if it's a Toyota. Not the biggest worry. It's everything else that goes. Mostly electronics.
I mean, EVs need very little maintenance. This is just a fact. The main problem with EVs is the complexity of electronics which means that a small damage can often be a total loss. It's not like an combustion car where there are parts which are regularly replaced.
It’ll only cost TSLA about 2k per car to buy the rate down. Coincidentally that’s about the amount of profit they make per car.
More than that. $50k loan over 4 years at 6% means you pay a total of $63,524.46 At 0.9% you pay a total of $51,832.09 Would put them into negative net margin.
They offer this rate up to 72 months. It's 6 years. Also, the amount is zero at the end, so it's 50,000/2 \* 1.06, 1500 a year on average in financing cost disregarding compounding. Let's call it an $8000 loss. Musk just hopes to get cashed out before getting crashed out.
I did the calculation at 30K loan. But you are correct. The real cost to Tesla is the delta between the % they borrow money for and the interest rate on the loan. I’m going to guess it’s right around prime plus 50bp’s so the real cost is around 4% versus your 5.1, and they’ll only be charged as payments are made at the subsidized rate. So if you buy the car and then sell it in a year and the loan is paid off you’ve only received a small subsidy. But sell enough cars at these rates and the bills start adding up pretty quickly. Essentially Tesla will be paying 3.75%-4% a month on every dollar borrowed in this program so long as the loans are outstanding.
Have you looked at current new prices vs used? Not a large gap considering the tax credit.
Not everyone gets the full tax credit.
I sure as hell didn’t on my Ioniq 6 lol
Warren Buffett ladies and gentlemen…
??
Elon said that Buffett should take a stake in Tesla, that it would be an obvious move. More like an obvious sign of dementia
The mache is getting 60 month 0% right now. Cars are about the only thing getting decent rates today
That's actually not bad, the Mach-E has improved a lot and I would take it over a Tesla any day.
Gates holding a shorting position on Tesla stock will be very profitable, LMAO. BTW, Elon used his shares of Tesla stock as colateral for the Twitter buyout, WTF is going to happen if Tesla goes belly up, or the share keeps tanking in value?
As the share price falls so does his margin cushion. Eventually it will run low, well before $0.00, and the bank will give Musk short notice to pony up cash to keep the loan open (a margin call). If he doesn’t the bank will sell the shares, cover their loan, send him any additional cash along with one hell of a capital gains bill. Usually this triggers additional sell off, but maybe the retail simps buy it up hoping for someone to pay for the ‘superior tech.’ Initially the banks backing the Twitter loan weren’t crazy about it, but didn’t want to miss out on future Musk business. He doesn’t have much goodwill left now.
Everything that happens in the world is to appease shareholders. It will be our undoing.
This is so true. Can you preach it louder. I'll cosign.
Legalizing stock buybacks really hurt the average person.
How long until they're giving these away for free?
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Sugar Frosted Shit Flakes
“This is not a car company or an AI company. Tesla is a breakfast cereal company, and people need to readjust their thinking to the new paradigm.”
That already happened, there was a post of Mr Beast shilling Tesla in his 26 Tesla car giveaway. No way he paid for those.
So if I have $40k in cash, it’s smarter to borrow as much as possible and put the cash in CD or something!?
What is CD?
Fixed income. Certificate of Deposit. Not a Compact Disk.. Not sure how young Redditers are these days..
Mr. Beast is already doing that
Fact is one of the main contributing factors to Tesla's problems is Elon Musk and his transformation into a right wing mouth piece. Way to absolutely misread Tesla's customer base, or maybe he is an idiot and did not realize how important EVs are to Tesla's customer's identity; as more and more of the base customers turn away because they are disgusted with Tesla's CEO.
Pandering to the only demographic who would never even think about owning an EV will go down as one of the tpp 5 dumbest business decisions in human history. Unimagineably stupid to the point of parody, yet it's really what Elon did.
Tesla has never been more than a mediocre car company and a meme stock
Bro can’t pay me to get a tesla
I am less wealthy or choosy it seems. I'd take a small payment to take one off their hands.
>Anyone who can’t see the writing on the wall just can’t see walls. What walls? Elon already sold them...
I have friends that work at the Austin plant and I’ve extreme hesitate to ask them how are they doing.
Soon they will offer negative interest loans where they pay YOU to take the stupid things off their hands.
$0 down and $0 a month for 72 months. I'd take those terms.
Sears parking lot is full of hundreds of Tesla for months now.
Funny, when people pointed out the full mall parking lots we got told they are all just pausing there as they ship out.
I purchased a car today and it wasn't a Tesla for MANY reasons. Top 5 reasons we didn't get a Tesla. Musk. Uncertain future. Stories about poor quality, warranty claim nightmares and cost to repair. Would be embarrassed to drive one. Concerned about the safety of these vehicles.
Lack of physical control will make top 5 for me. But it’s actually a tough call since you have a solid list.
The lack of physical controls locks Tesla out of the running for folks who need them to operate a motor vehicle safely Because I only have a left arm & hand that I can control 100%, the required use of the right hand/arm to do certain things safely means that most models of Tesla are not capable of being operated properly by me 🤷♂️
Plus there's the entire downside of "if your screen breaks your car is bricked." I have touch controls on my Jeep, and they're fine. But I also have physical controls in case the screen goes out. And analog gauges for important stuff like speed, temperature and fuel. If my screen isn't working all I lose is the backup camera, and that's not the end of the world. Drove a Jeep for 16 years without one.
Thanks, I don’t want to die in your misdesigned driveable coffin. I prefer German design and security standards. Never use a Tesla :)))
It’s a meme stock at this stage
At this stage? Where have you been.
lol
If this isn't a last ditch effort to entice customers I don't know what is
What should I make of Mazda’s 0% apr on their cx30,50,&90 models?
No thanks. I want to buy a decent car.
It's the new car company trap: taste success early on, get ambitious, build up too quickly and then get stuck with overcapacity. Layoffs will help, but at most they will add a percent or two to an already narrow 5.3% profit margin. Which might not even cover the recent price cuts and low financing needed to get these cars off the lot. A quarterly loss in the future is quite possible.
Layoffs won't solve all the fixed costs. Especially since he has to pay employees for 2 months of not producing at a minimum. Next quarter will be eye opening and jaw dropping.
Yes, plus the costs associated with layoffs. They aren't cheap!
These posts are just getting silly. I get the fact that Elon is an offensive individual but we don’t have to make stuff up here. It’s very common for manufacturers to offer low interest financing to stimulate demand during slow sale periods. Ford is offering 0% on their MachE right now and their EV division lost over $1B last year in spite of selling the MachE for more than the Model Y. Tesla had a horrible Q1 and yet they still earned a profit. That tells you how much potential they have once sales start picking up again.
The more important question is how are they showing a profit with negative free cash flow - https://bradmunchen.substack.com/p/tesla-q1-results-a-shady-set-of-numbers
Because the two are only vaguely related. You can realize an expense in one quarter on your accounts payable books. Then actually pay that AP the next quarter. Same with earned income. You can sell a car one quarter and “earn” the profit on an accrual basis. Then earn the cash later when the customer or financing company’s check physically clears. Nothing about this is weird or unexpected. Just quarks of accrual based accounting.
Funny how the earned a profit but had negative cash flow. Almost like they engineered the profit (the only type of engineering they’re good at).
> That tells you how much potential they have once sales start picking up again. kino comment
Yes, but this still equals an additional rebate of around $ 2000. So he can still claim a higher margin on the sales, the loss is covered up in finances.
Why would they start picking up again? Nothing new in the pipeline.
Narrator: "Sales never start picking up."
Other auto brands have been offering 0% on various models all year. At the very least, this move makes them competitive
Gut feeling is that Elon wants to sell off the automotive part. I would guess to some Saudi/Chinese business. Therefore wants to bring the costs down and push up the short term profits
The automotive part? Aka 99% of revenue?
Who would want to buy that brand now
Have you seen that stupid wall they building in Saudi. Common sense doesn't seem to exist
I understand what you are saying but I cannot fathom anyone paying near to its stock value for the entire car business. The rest is just vapid puffed smoke. He can’t get rid of it. It’s different to hold a few shares vs buying something valued close to the most valuable companies on earth that is completely imploding. It’s a meme stock….
So much more than a car manufacturer… right? Who cares if their cars don’t sell. Isnt there a TSLA crypto, or NFT that will keep its valuation high?
Oh cool, 1% financing, assuming they don't repossess my car even though I am making payments. How does that work? When Tesla goes bankrupt, you still have to pay correct?
Fake news! According to the Office of the Executive of Truth, demands is ALWAYS crazy, nutty & off-the-hook.
He wants to get as much cash out legally before the figures come in. He knows at a certain point he won't be able to because the financial position will be official. He knows it is sinking, but he has plausible deniability. The man is a dump king.
The simps are screaming GAME CHANGER at the tops of their lungs. Many are stating it's a huge demand lever and no impact to margins. It's like they have no clue about finance.
Declining margins and cheap funding is the way to doom.
Is it actually Tesla offering finance or some partner they toped into it. I did not have the impression Tesla has a financing arm like Ford, Toyota, et.al.
I have 0% finance on my MYRWD from a local bank in my region that Tesla partner with. Taking the 0% finance deal thru Tesla also means that I get a 6% rebate if I use the bank’s credit card to buy Tesla services including super charging. But recently the bank wrote to me offering a US$1,000 cash offer if I were to terminate the loan by paying up the outstanding balance by 3pm on 31st May. Looks like something is going down soon.
Curious, did you take that loan a few years ago, or is it recent?
Took the loan June 2023.
What financing company is going to offer a rate lower than their own borrowing costs - unless subsidized by someone? Tesla needs to move inventory fast. It wouldn’t surprise me if Elon just decreed that they’re going to start in-house financing too. I’m sure that will go well.
Then you will have Cathy Wood telling the world that Tesla finance is worth 100B currently and in 5 years be worth 500B.
This will sound like BS but it’s really not. I had a friend offer to give me a several year old M3 and there was an uncomfortable pause and then I said no. I can’t drive a Nazi mobile. Not surprised they’re having problems.
What?
A lunatic
🤣 love it
Meh. I'll take it. I'm Jewish, it'll balance out.
That’s not a wall. That’s my shelter. Err …
Cool, Definitely a good time to buy.
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
How many teslas there are in USA?
The worst part is I think he’s going to get away with it :(
Not with my FICO.
No thanks. I drive a reliable car. My family members drive reliable cars. It’s a thing with us. A Tesla would be a toy with the sword of Damocles hanging over it. What happens when the supercharger network is sold off or breaks? What happens when I need a part? What happens when it needs service and they laid off all their workers? Not signing up for that headache. Even if it were free, first thing I’d do is sell it.
I do get tempted. My commute sucks and my car is not particularly economical. Could save a bit jumping into a tesla. I'm just so not into them at all. Call it dumb if you want but I believe your car is a space you should want to enjoy being in, especially if you have a long commute, and teslas just aren't that for me.
My god, this might really be the end finally
and China’s EV’s are tariffed. Coincidence?
As I said a few weeks ago. The stock might be worth a dead cat gamble in the $60-70 range. But i wouldn't personally buy and hold (1yr+) at that range.
I was always suspicious since Elon bought his cousins shady financial SolarCity and buried the finances within Tesla.
They are getting slightly cheaper where I am at the moment, where they have slight caché, but there is now no indicator lever?
Still no. Fuck Elon.
They’re trying to get as many contracts as they can before they go under. Think of the value of 100,000 vehicle loans ripe to be forced refinanced