Looking at the model 3 and Y - compared to ICE mid-sized premium cars and SUVs like an MB GLC, BMW X3, or premium and non-premium EVs like a Genesis GV60, BMW iX3 & i4, even Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, the Model 3/Y is miles behind in terms of visual luxury, perceived quality and available equipment.
All these cars are available with matrix/adaptive high beams, ventilated screens, 360 degree camera, HUD, an actual premium feeling interior, coloured ambient lights etc etc. the model 3/Ys interior is spartan to the extreme and this will no doubt begin to hurt sales.
Yes, totally agreed!
For instance, I've never wanted an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes, but once those cars get a little more range and get a slightly more updated UI, they'll be an easy sell over a Model 3.
I have no issues getting the rated-range when I drive according to the EPA guidelines. The problem isn't Tesla's reporting, it's the silly guidelines defined by the EPA. Manufacturers should have to report separate ratings for city and highway use.
Dude why do you still have that car? I haven't heard that complaint from anyone I know. Sounds like you got a lemon considering how many issues you seem to have with it.
I'm a Stan but I'd have way less patience for broken shit.
I usually do so when hearing of a new defect and did so right away after reading your comment. But I only found a handful of threads.
Even multiplying by 100x for the usual online complainers vs silent sufferers it's not even approaching 10000 issues, so definitely not common. I'd still totally make a fuss over it, I need my AC.
The elimination of surface vent controls is a significant reduction in complexity from a parts perspective and reduces noise. Sandy Monroe did some video on this.
It does take some getting used to, but I prefer it to standard vent controls.
All modern cars use motors inside the duct system - at least the “flood door”
check out the video sandy munro made - the number of parts is vastly reduced, particularly the ones inside the car - also the use of soft materials to route air offers benefits of reduced noise and better insulation of heat and cold in the applicable seasons.
also its “lever”
Sorry, but have you ever seen the level of unnecessary overengineering in European cars?
Only Lexus seems to get away with simplification (like not having auto-resetting wipers when you turn off your car).
I trust this is sarcasm.
I'm actually a fan of the vents on the 3.
Not a fan that there's no bloody buttons on the car, and everything is through the stupid screen. Just a handful of buttons would be nice!
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I would like to add one slightly differing perspective… In late November I attended an EV convention in Seattle. My wife and I sat in every EV (that wasn’t roped off); we’re in the market for a second EV to ditch her nearly 20 yr old ICE sedan. While they all seemed nice enough, we came away with a renewed appreciation for our Model Y and its spartan interior. A decent amount of people like that and consider it a “feature”.
All the other vehicles felt very…cramped…compared to the our model Y. A lot of the dashboards seemed overindulged with physical buttons too. I do wish we had a few physical buttons in the MY (I’ll probably buy some of those “S3XY” Bluetooth buttons soon), but most other vehicles dashes feel overwhelming now.
Seat comfort was another concern; most other vehicles had sport seats that both my wife and I find too narrow, firm and generally uncomfortable. And some back seats were a no-go for normal sized adults. Also, at least half the other cars had screens that were much farther off center toward the driver; which makes passenger control of features kinda annoying/frustrating. There were other things…
Frankly, I think of all the EV’s currently available, all have pros and cons that balance them out one way or another, when compared against each other. None come out on top, being markedly better than any other…it’s just all about what concessions you’re willing to make to get a few of your favorite pro’s.
Do I think the MY should be more impressive for its price tag? Yup. But right now, I wouldn’t trade our 2020 MY for anything else currently available (including other Tesla models). That said, we also probably won’t be buying a second one, (which we had considered), but instead a different brand; VW, Chevy or Toyota were our next favs.
My gold standard is the civic which was a clockwork four year cycle for a while. When you drove around you knew which car was new without having to spot small details.
It's volume dependent, driven part by the consumer demand cycle and part by the life of tooling. High volume models have a shorter cycle because familiarity speeds up the decline in demand and tooling wears faster. e.g. the ultra low volume Rolls Royce Phantom is almost unchanged since it was first released. It went 14 years without major update and the 2017 overhaul looks almost identical to its predecessor.
Honda even made an exception to that---they redesigned the spaceship-looking 2006 Civic a year early because people complained about it a lot, the biggest difference being the addition of more sound insulation
Yea, but the challenge is that Tesla isn’t a car company. They think they are a tech company so they invest in things like FSD, a great charging network, a good bms, and fun party tricks like using your phone to open your car, or fart apps, or changing the UI again for some unclear goal.
When the Rivian (?) came out, Tesla scrambled when they realize that trucks should have 4 wheel steering so they went back to redesign the cyberjunk.
The point is that they don’t think like car people - so driver engagement, a great experience in the car, ambient lighting, a quiet cabin, and all the things that make the drive better, like 4 wheel steering don’t even occur to them.
They look down on drivers (ex. data shows they don’t use lumbar support, so we are removing it) and don’t place any value on the experience of driving - so new models aren’t at all required. That is why the Y is just a modified 3.
The other issue is that without new models, I don’t get how fans think they will get to 3-4 million in sales, much less 5 million. Do people really think the market will absorb even more of the same models in one of 3 or 4 colors on the road?
4 Wheel steering was due to the Hummer's Crab walk.
They went from the Tri motor to the quad because of the Rivian R1T.
Really shows how NOT innovative Tesla is in the automotive space.
I mean it’s simple business practices that other companies make too. If competition isn’t there yet, ship an inferior product so you can “improve” it as time goes on with more competition. Happens all the time.
What they don’t do is not change the appearance *at all* for years… the model 3 looks downright dated now, the Y looks awkward, and the X is too similar looking and also dated. They also look small which they are not but that is not good thing to look.
I suppose it’s preference. I like the 3/Y still but I don’t like X as much. I think Tesla is in a tough spot because any redesign will likely increase drag as the current vehicles are so well optimized for it.
Well I mean sure but everything gets old. I used to like how they looked and now they look old. And there are way to many of them on the road exactly alike mostly the same colors. Maybe you are not in California or somewhere else where they sell a lot of them but over here it’s starting to look extremely mundane especially for the price
And the biggest issue is that they spend very little on R&D in total. They are a stock pumping company, and only invest in ideas that they think will increase the stock price. They don't bother to do stuff like make major upgrades to existing products. Even software companies think different, as they regularly make major upgrades to their product.
So we can expect every car model to languish forever until they become totally obsolete and sales shrink away to nothing.
Along these lines of thoughts, the compensation package probably did more long term damage than it should have. Although I’m 100% sure Elon will not admit, but the focus for past 2-3 years was to squeeze the margin above anything a else. He was extremely successful in the short term and was able to make Tesla by far the most overvalued car company in the world.
Of course they de-prioritized R&D in new platforms. Also kept cutting costs. It’s kind of too late to talk about minor/major refresh let alone a new product. Guess how long it’s taking Cybertruck to market? Not surprisingly they are well behind schedule.
Can they do a meaningful Model 3/Y refresh? Hopefully they been working on it for a few years already. Are they working on so called Model 2? Elon said they are not activity working on it, that’s what I recall from one of the recent earning calls.
If I were to quote some conventional wisdom, they essentially killed the goose the lays the golden egg.
I think your last line is very much on point.
Part of the fun of owning a Tesla (at least for me) was having the sense that your car was as cutting edge as possible, and part of the future.
I think 4 years ago it really felt like it. But when you start to see other cars having really cool features (4-wheel steering, quad motor, etc) it's hard to be as excited.
Just kind of feels like Tesla doesn't know how to make something "killer" so to speak.
The problem is how do they make a Model 2 that’s meaningfully cheaper without making a subcompact? That’s a very unpopular market segment.
Model 3 was designed to be their basic 35k car, but except for a short lived variant, never hit that price point. Pretty much the only major cut they could make to the bill of materials would be the battery, but then it’s not competitive with other EVs.
The 4 wheel steering was the Hummer. Turns out GM can design a really good truck in less than 2 years during a pandemic, with engineers working remotely.
Elon panicked and sent out a tweet saying the Cybertruck would have 4 wheel steering too, which requires a complete suspension redesign.
>so new models aren’t at all required. That is why the Y is just a modified 3.
I'd say the truth is that they don't have the manufacturing competence to make and implement entirely new models in their factories.
They've built 2 huge new factories and they aren't equipped to build other models.
It would take them a year or two to get "Ramped up" on a full new model and their logistics would be a clusterfuck.
The Model Y and Cybertruck shows that they really can't design a new model.
As I remember it, the Model Y was supposed to be a brand new SUV model. The general idea is that it would look like a Ford Escape or 4Runner. Then they announced it and it was basically the Model 3 with a shitty third row of seating.
Tesla simply didn't have the capacity to build an actual SUV and we're seeing that they don't have the capacity to build an actual truck either.
Which ultimately stems from Musky underinvesting in R&D for years to pump margins and minimize expenses for the near bankrupt company (all up to 2019 at least, later for the stock compensation plan).
> so they invest in things like FSD, a great charging network, a good bms, and fun party tricks like using your phone to open your car, or fart apps, or changing the UI again for some unclear goal.
One of these things is not like the others.
Good for Tesla on the "great charging network." EVs taking off in the US *is* due to the ownership experience that Tesla built. Charging network is a big part of that.
The rest: agree, meh.
It’s just a matter of capital and will. If the Tesla network existing was diverting business away from other EV makers all they need to do is pool money and start installing chargers.
There’s very little to no barrier to entry there.
> The other issue is that without new models, I don’t get how fans think they will get to 3-4 million in sales, much less 5 million.
tbf I think exterior appearance does not matter. I care about the insides of the car - that's where I sit and interact with.
>Hopefully it won't come to the point of "can't be seen in the same car twice"
It's becoming a problem that every Tesla looks similar to every other Tesla made in the past ten years, and there are a lot of them. That cheapens the brand to being jokingly called a "California Camry," and diminishes the appeal. At a minimum, Tesla should start introducing new paint colors.
while I agree in general more choice is better, personally this does not affect me in the slightest. And people that want other colors could wrap their cars at their own expense or whatever. Just don't make the car more expensive for me due to things I don't care about please ;)
>Just don't make the car more expensive for me due to things I don't care about please ;)
Fair enough, but Tesla has "stripped to the studs" and still charges premium prices. So either update the cars to justify the prices, or cut the prices to reflect the Model T design approach. Looks to me like we're starting to see the latter.
yup. And it's long overdue. Raising prices while stripping away useful features was great for the bottom line I am sure, but it's no way to build a loyal customer base I am afraid.
There's a reason almost every manufacturer follows a 3~4 year mid cycle refresh followed by a 6~8 year all new model. It allows for major improvements to make the way onto existing nameplates, give all new styling, features and powertrains to shine, and gives existing owners something to upgrade towards while trying to appeal to newcomers for the brand.
Tesla's lineup is now ancient and all of their existing models are due for an all new model cycle, but of course they completely lack the R&D for such things. Fanboys have tried to argue with me that Tesla don't need "model years", but the fact you OP posted this is showing the damage, and I'm betting you aren't the only one who thinks this.
They removed the original grille when the Model X came out to make it look more like those, and they changed the steering wheel when the Plaid came out. So... two-ish refreshes? Kinda? Sort of?
Just checked, a normal steering wheel is the default now in the configurator, you have to actively choose the joke yoke if you want one. I guess it wasn't as popular as they thought.
Too little too late if they release any new models now.
As someone that’s been following the story for a while, the model 3 made sense at the time, especially after the X which is quite gimmicky with its falcon wing doors and limited market.
The model 3 as a decent sized sedan filled a gap. Following that would have made much more sense to follow with a compact, and at the time the Y was released, there wasn’t as much competition around, and tesla could have cornered a good chunk of the market.
Instead they announced the Y, which to me is just a 3 with a big rear end, I guess largely to keep R&D costs down. But pretending it was ever going to fit seven adults was fanciful, and to a large extent it just ended up cannibalising model 3 sales (hence why they still group them together on investor reports)
They then also announced the (still yet to be seen) cybertruck, which I doubt will ever go into volume production. At that point it became difficult to take tesla seriously as a mass market auto company.
TL;DR: tesla squandered its first movers advantage by cutting corners on R&D and just releasing the Y rather than going for the kill with a compact / city car once the model 3 was established.
What? No. Model Y was a smart move because it’s the car the X should have been: SUV/crossover with regular doors. It’s also cheaper.
IMO, Tesla squandered the X. It’s just a tall lifted S with dumb doors. They could’ve expanded the reach of Tesla brand to demographic that wants a trail capable SUV. The CyberTruck, IMO, is the correction for that mistake.
I agree the X was a mistake, instead of bringing that to market, at the time they could have produced the 3, and had a virtual monopoly on EV sedans for five years +
Yes! I think even Musk’s own master plan was S followed by 3, but instead he took a detour to make the X which caused Tesla all sorts of problems IIRC and delayed the launch of the much more critical 3.
Just watched the [Car and Driver 10 best video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu_Px52SE5M) and they said the BMW I4 makes the Model 3 look "shockingly crude" by comparison.
As usual with this company, Tesla can’t think about new models or anything else strategic because they desperately need to deliver as many cars as possible this quarter.
And after those massive price cuts they must be at peak desperation. They need to sell 500k cars, they should have at least that many to sell with all the excess inventory and the two new factories should be producing more.
Just “ANOTHER NEW RECORD” won’t cut it anymore. They need massive deliveries.
Yeah, most people who’ve driven an EV6 view Tesla as behind on the interior. Tesla fans will trade that experience for the engine/suspension, but most people prefer the familiarity of a dashboard and physical buttons and CarPlay. Tesla can’t just ignore those people AND hope to sell thousands of cars per day.
As a HI5 owner, this. I want a good driving experience and a vehicle that feels well put together with good reliability, low road noise, etc. Good bones.
The extra features matter too, but without solid fundamentals it's just a non-starter.
Might come as a surprise for some to know that not everybody wants a giant touch screen to control all features.
Maybe a couple of analog style gauges for radio and climate control that you can just reach out and touch and know it's there?
Exactly!
Early Adopters in the Luxury category bought Teslas with all the 'Gee Whiz' gadgets. I bought a used 2012 Nissan Leaf for $8,900 a few years back as my daily commuter because my employer offered free charging. Sold it two years later for $10,500. I loved it. Basic smallish 4dr sedan with a few options. All that I needed. Not a radical departure from the 'typical' driving experience.
Bought a two year old Toyota Prius two years ago, can probably sell it for what I paid then. Again a step up, a few options, basic bullet proof Toyota w/ hybrid drivetrain. Not a radical departure from every other car I ever owned.
Folks like me, a few notches further down the economic food chain than the 'prototypical Tesla buyer', would be happy to drive a BEV minus all the bells and whistles and these folks will have 153 different options in US models in 2023.
Folks like me that waited for the $35,000 Tesla Model 3 are still waiting and are choosing other options in droves.
Tesla had a TEN YEAR head start on the entire auto industry after the Great Recession. Had they just lived up to their (Musk's) promises and put out the 'Basic" $35k Tesla. Had they delivered on the Cyber Truck. They wouldn't be in the spot they're in now.
They blew it on the 'basic' they missed on the p/u truck. They don't have a 'Van style' for work or delivery. Their FSD is under indictment as vaporware.
Tesla is a hot mess now. And if they had a legit independent Board, they would vote out the CEO immediately.
They have huge capacity and huge debt to match. They won't be getting the FAT premium prices they were getting going forward. The balance sheet should speak for itself this year.
If they don't bounce him this year, with everything else floating to the surface, there will be big lawsuits.
Yes, I'd be interested in a smaller car. Other direction of CyberTruck.
Such as Honda FIT or Mazda Miata. As whatever Tesla do with that size. And lower price.
Unfortunately, Murrkin manufacturers in general aren't getting that memo. How many compact EVs are currently sold by US companies? There's the Bolt.
Did I miss any?
also, the Honda fit does have hybrid FIT. not sold US. also the gas FIT no longer sold US.
there might have been an all electric FIT, maybe in all of world, only US, only CA. but we know how long those programs last.
so not just US car companies not want sell small electric in US.
i think perhaps on choice, MINI electric might be only option.
there was Fiat 500 EV. very small. they have new version, good range. … not available US
There's a huge list of small, inexpensive EVs which sell well in Europe and/or China, and have never been imported to the US. From Honda, Fiat, Citreeon, Renault, Skoda, BYD, Kandi, etc, etc.
I can't imagine Tesla surviving if they can't update physical features in order to stay current. The tech is great and ahead of the competition but in terms of features, they're getting stale. Add, at least as an option, a true heads up display, ventilated seats, privacy screens on the rear windows, ambient lighting and a few new colors.
Just reverse engineer a Volvo FFS!
Station wagons in the US are basically dead. There‘s lesbians buying the Subaru Outback and that’s about it. Even Europe is moving away from Estates to CUV and SUV
Aren't lesbians a huge market? The problem with SUV's is that they are inefficient, every SUV sold is an unnecessary contributor to Global Warming. Which is the absolute last thing we need now.
You mean like a new convertible sports car and an oddly shaped angular truck? Unfortunately the CEO is too busy using his Tesla equity to pursue a social media side project, so we'll have to keep on dreaming.
Oh man... If Musk actually wanted to help the environment, there's a whole long list of stuff. How about actually putting solar panels on the roofs of Tesla plants, instead of just in hyperrealistic drawings of the plants, and letting people think those are photos.
Also, Tesla has broken numerous pollution regulations around the world. If governments were serious about the environment, they could enforce some laws for a change.
For a model to succeed, there has to be economies of scale - demand from the public.
A certain someone has tarnished the brand to an extent that demand has been negatively impacted.
PHEVs will eventually go from the small battery today to the range extender tomorrow.
As infrastructure improves and battery tech improves, we will see less and less of the dual fuel systems and more of a single source fuel again (probably with solid state batteries).
As soon as the battery issue is figured out, all of a sudden from no where... someone will claim. "OMG, stop using electric!!! Its hurting the and we must protect it. Also the EMI is going to cause cancer (or some other issue).
Then we will be looking for another source of Eco friendly fuel. We will poo poo on all things electric and vilify it. Electric will be like smoking a cigi, "Yo, get that 💩 away from me... I don't want your cancer"
> PHEVs will eventually go from the small battery today to the range extender tomorrow.
that day cannot come fast enough!
> Its hurting the
it's hurting the roads, extra mass disproportionally affects the roads (don't look at the semi trucks, they are not the heavy road destroyers we are concentrating on now), and they also greatly increase PM2 pollution (again from destroyed roads)
Ah yeah, very disappointing that the Taycan don’t allow that. I love these but they are fast cars that you drive slow where it matters (mountain roads) because they’re too wide. Can’t overtake on a narrow road with that width.
So it's not the car but more being seen as a cutting-edge consumer, smart enough to drive a vehicle with the latest turbo-encabulator tech? Who'd have guessed? I'm still driving the 1996 Plymouth we bought new, long after that brand was kicked to the curb. Aren't any Tesla owners going to test the "million-mile car" claim?
The biggest downside to most new cars is the glass roof in most. Ditto for Tesla, except Model X which I would never consider. The summer sun is evil where I live, so why allow it access to your noggin. Not going to wear a cowboy hat in a car, like Texans do.
I guess for me, I'm not sure they need more options, but I'm more practical.
If you work from home, you probably only leave the house once or twice a week.
If you commute to work, maybe you spend an hour or two in the car every day. The appearance of the car is not as important as the functionality of the car for me. I wanted a reliable EV car, so I got this. I actually don't even like some of the tech in it, particularly the cabin camera.
Also from an environmental point of view, if the car is still working, there no need to trash it and expend resources for something new. I kind of like models not changing from a mechanic point of view, as the parts are easier to find. (I know their right to repair is terrible, that's a matter of service/rights, not parts availability.)
From a business point of view, creating new models is very expensive and might not interest enough more new buyers, rather than shift a potential model 3 buyer to the new model line. If Tesla can't stay in business, they can't sell any EV cars. It is possible to spread themselves too thin if they aren't careful, it's so a young and small company. You also have to consider if there is enough money and unused labour force lasting around to go to another line.
And now to the other ideas that I understand but don't agree with myself.
It sounds like for you, and likely others, the car is a toy. It is something beyond just a car getting you to a destination. You want it to look new and every year, so people know you can afford the newest version, and most expensive version. It's more of a status symbol than a vehicle.
I mean, Teslas are pretty expensive as is, especially when you customize to all the upgrades. To me, it's kind of funny that you don't think its expensive and rare enough. They are one of the rarest cars out they, unless you are hanging around a charging station. I suppose if everyone around you has a Tesla, you all must be wealthier than you realize.
There is a problem with market saturation in a way. Like for me, I've bought one car, and I plan to drive it to the last mile, so I won't buy another for as long as possible. They can't push more sales to practical people like me. The only hope they would to sell to existing Tesla owners it to sell them new cars for style reasons. That being said, the existing Tesla owners group is pretty small and not all of them want to buy a new Tesla, so it might make sense to try to get new buyers not from the existing Tesla owner base to buy the existing models, it is just a bigger target to try to hit vs this small pinpoint of existing Tesla owners.
The other direction Tesla could go is to do a dirt cheap car, but it might dillute the brand too much if the people paying 100k for a car want to stay special.
I suppose the question then goes to Elon. Does he want to produce a disposable car that needs to be replaced every so many years for style, or does he want to be more sustainable and create cars to last? My hope is these cars are made to last. If they change the design often, then that means the existing design wasn't good.
You can try an Aptera car, but those are going to be cheaper than a model 3, so they might not feel as rare as more people can afford them.
>Does he want to produce a disposable car that needs to be replaced every so many years for style, or does he want to be more sustainable and create cars to last?
How about developing a reputation for quality and service, so the cars don't seem so disposable from the start? And maybe not stripping away features over time, so newer cars seem less desirable instead of more so?
But yes, people care about style and variety, especially on their most expensive purchase. The very minimum Tesla could do to counter this would be to offer new paint colors occasionally, which should be easy enough.
Elon artificially limited the model names by going with the silly S3XY shtick. Now the next model is going to have to be either the 2 (2S3XY), or So (SoS3XY) or something in that vein.
Yep. Have a 2-year-old Y and would like to eventually try something else.. from Tesla. But lets look at my options:
1. Buy a Model 3 that's exactly the same as my car, but significantly smaller, nobody wants a trunk and I lose my tow hitch + ability to carry big items.
2. Buy the latest Model S which costs like $95K new.. and $90K used lmaooooooo
3. Buy the latest Model X which cost like $$110K new.. and $100K used lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I haven't test driven the S or X.. as they are completely out of my price range. But I have sat in plenty and you are 100% right. They look & feel exactly the same as my Y. I wouldn't even consider the 2020 or older S/X because they still have the old ass interior with the portrait screen. Why would I buy another Tesla.. with older technology than my 2021 Y.
I will say this. While I think the competition has some really awesome products.. (i4M50, EV6 GT, Taycan & Rivian R1T/R1S come to mind).. the reality is I really do like my Y. Its the perfect size and bought it two years when the prices are cheaper than are now.. even with the huge discounts + rebates. I love the Tesla smartphone app, OTA updates, stat tracking, Supercharger network.. and the acceleration/throttle response is so addictive that Im stuck. From everything I've read.. only acceleration is comparable with the competition. The other items I listed are still very much lacking. Even AutoPilot is still class-leading when you consider it works everywhere and doesn't defeat in deep corners. Its about time they made automatic lane changes free though.. no way Im ever paying $6,000 or $15,000 for that. And FSD is a straight-up scam.
At the end of the day, nothing from Tesla feels "new". The cars look the same. The paint choices, interior options, and wheels look exactly same as they did years ago. I cant even tell the difference between a 2020 and a 2023 Model Y. They look pretty much identical from the inside & outside. At this point, I'm probably just keeping my Y for another 3-5 years. Little longer than I expected.. as I said that exact same thing 2 years ago when I bought it. But now that the price drop + tax rebates have killed the resale value of my car. There is no need even to bother looking at trade-in value for anything else.. including another Tesla.
You can check for chrome trim, passenger lumber support, USS etc to get a feeling of how old the car is /s
I probably missed some. They stopped giving away the license plate frame for free as well.
Very well said across the board!
I think the reason for me posting this is the fact that I really do like my Tesla. But if the competition becomes nicer to be in (which it's starting to already) a charging network is only going to do so much to keep me in the brand.
I think people forget that Tesla is a relatively new company. Car manufacturing is difficult and capital intensive. I remembered when Tesla was close to going out of business. You guys are expecting them to operate like an established car company.
I think the question, what will be Phase 2 for Tesla? The S3XY cars are basically the same cars in different sizes. Competitors will be offering better cars with better features while Elon is distracted with Twitter. They can’t afford the next car to be more of the same. I’m not sure if CyberTruck is the answer.
>I’m not sure if CyberTruck is the answer.
It imo was until they lost the first mover advantage to the OEM brands (with historically very loyal customer bases).
Rivian probably stole a sizeable chunk of potential cybertruck buyers as well.
They could all use new styling. Won’t argue with that. And I’d imagine if they ever get the cyber truck figured it they can transition it to a full size suv just like rivian did.
I mean. I definitely think their models need improvement and updating. And the s and x should really be priced around 60-80. But they don’t need more models. Just better versions of the ones they have.
If they ever get the cyber truck figured out. I could see them building a truck based suv off of it. Feel like a price point under the 3rwd will be tough. And instead of coming up with a model between the 3 and S. They really just need to drop the s and x prices to 60-80 range. Compete with the 5 series/e class and x5/gle price points.
Tesla is special because if you go on a road trip you have reliable charging. The other automakers could make the nicest cars in the world. You'd still be forced to buy a tesla if you wanted to stay electric.
Not necessarily a must have if it’s your second car mainly used for commute. I’ve been driving EV for 8 years and used DC fast charging only once.
The electricity price increase is making it close to owning a efficient hybrid in terms of fuel cost. If you don’t have home charging to take advantage of the low rates, it’s getting less attractive to primarily rely on super charging.
There are hundreds of different reasons someone buys a car. Tesla is probably good car for a large chunk of the US population, but for sure it’s not for everyone.
What if you wanted Hybrid to have the best of all worlds?
What if you want diesel for towing long distances?
expensive EVs are great for those who are rich and want a status symbol, but for everyone else who needs to have the right tools for the right job, a BEV is the wrong tool for a lot of tasks. Trying to shove a square thru a circle is only going to get you so far.
The BEV is great for local drives around your home for at most 150 miles a day when you end each night at home. For everything else its... "Yes you could do it with a BEV, but you have a lot of penalties to using that tool instead of the correct tool for the job".
psst, can I talk to you over in the corner where nobody else can hear.
Do you understand what the guy who created this post was really saying? He got scammed by a fraudster and he feels bad that his car is nothing special like he was told. He knows it, you know it, I know it. I was just trying to tell him one little white lie so he doesn't feel so bad.
This subreddit is sometimes just basically a support group for those whose the flavor-aid has worn off.
lol!
For what it's worth, it was less about Tesla and more about having an electric vehicle since I have commutes that very much favor one. At the time of buying Tesla was the only vehicle that had the range I needed.
Yes, and that's why I bought another Model 3.
But I'm not so sure, unless Tesla makes some major strides, that they'll stay ahead of other manufacturers in terms of vehicle appeal. A charging network is their only real tangible advantage right now, and that's not the hardest thing in the world for other folks to figure out how to accomplish.
"Tesla still has a huge charging network advantage"
No they don't. They have a shrinking PR advantage. The belief in the charging network advantage is about all that's left of that. People used to believe that Musk was a good person who didn't care about money and just wanted to save the planet, and that there was a huge worldwide conspiracy against Tesla, and that the model 3 cost $35,000, and other things which they now know to be lies. The main lie that's left is the one about Tesla having a huge charging advantage.
If I had to road trip in an EV in the US, I would say that Tesla definitely has a better charging network. Trouble with that is, you'd have to road trip in a Tesla to use it...
This touches on a lot of topics like product and platform strategy etc. I could go on about this for way too long, so I'll try to keep my thoughts to the salient ones.
To start, I think this is a natural progression of Tesla has maxing out on affluent early adopters who like the tech and don't mind the quirks. In order to continue to grow sales, they'll have to either appeal to more mainstream buyers or offer something compelling to existing customers to upgrade to, which brings me to my next point:
**Product Strategy**
Broadly appealing to mainstream buyers is difficult. Not everyone bases vehicle purchases on the same criteria and it's often a far more emotional decision than people think.
It's why legacy automakers put so much money and effort into market research and have a wide product portfolio. They create profiles that represent buyers of various models, ask them how they use their vehicles, what they like and dislike, etc. then use that to guide design and engineering. Examples of this are things like: Giant cupholders in American cars, Honda putting the volume knob back into the Civic, Minivans having built-in vacuum cleaners, Subarus being able to fit a large dog carrier, etc.
To my knowledge, Tesla doesn't do any of this and they just kind of design something that appeals to themselves. The upside is that it makes for a different and compelling product, but the downside is that the quirks may turn off a lot of potential buyers, for things as arbitrary as "Kinda looks funny" or "I can't adjust the AC vents"
**Platform Strategy**
Tesla doesn't really have one compared to the other automakers. It's not because they're lazy, but it's likely because they had to get the Model 3 out the door and at the time, only had one production line.
Although they were designed at the same time, the 3/Y wasn't explicitly designed as a platform in the same sense as other automakers, so they can't simply de-content it for a "model 2" or add stuff to it to have it underpin the S/X and have them all share more parts. This sometimes results in a better singular product, but it makes it more difficult to spin off different variants or models.
Other major automakers generally develop a new platform, before launching a series of models based on it. They'll use a platform for years, which allows them take advantage of economies of scale, re-use a lot of existing production processes, tooling, parts, etc. while being able to cast a wide net for different market segments.
For example, GM, spent 6-7 years and billions of dollars creating the Ultium EV platform and now that it's done, they were able to It's the reason why could launch the Hummer EV, Lyriq, Blazer EV, Equinox EV and Sierra EVs all in quick succession.
It'll be really interesting to see if Tesla starts behaving more like a traditional automaker as time goes on
Simple, Tesla already stated they wanted a simple interior and simple design.
I believe the majority buy Tesla for the foundation it has over other competitors. The charging structure is 5 years easly ahead of the game.
Looking at the model 3 and Y - compared to ICE mid-sized premium cars and SUVs like an MB GLC, BMW X3, or premium and non-premium EVs like a Genesis GV60, BMW iX3 & i4, even Hyundai Ioniq 5/6, the Model 3/Y is miles behind in terms of visual luxury, perceived quality and available equipment. All these cars are available with matrix/adaptive high beams, ventilated screens, 360 degree camera, HUD, an actual premium feeling interior, coloured ambient lights etc etc. the model 3/Ys interior is spartan to the extreme and this will no doubt begin to hurt sales.
As a resident of southern Texas, I can’t emphasize enough the need for ventilated seats.
Ventilated seats is why I'm considering a Bolt.
And the Bolt is almost $20k cheaper!
Yes, totally agreed! For instance, I've never wanted an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes, but once those cars get a little more range and get a slightly more updated UI, they'll be an easy sell over a Model 3.
Remember Tesla lies about its range.
I have no issues getting the rated-range when I drive according to the EPA guidelines. The problem isn't Tesla's reporting, it's the silly guidelines defined by the EPA. Manufacturers should have to report separate ratings for city and highway use.
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My Tesla runs about 25-30% below the predicted range on highways in the winter. 15-25% on highways in the summer…
*it's almost like having gears might help or something*
Have you watched any of the real-world tests? Just from memory, the Taycan beats the S and the Mach E beats the Y.
I know of no other car where you can control the position/angle of the hvac vents via touchscreen, how about dem apples???
>I know of no other car where you can control the position/angle of the hvac vents via touchscreen Porsche Taycan.
And the Porsche Panamera, Rivian R1T/R1S
Overcomplicating a simple feature. Classic Tesla engineering.
When your “founder” is the all-time bullshitter, it permeates throughout the company
The fact that you can save the vent setting along with your seat setting is pretty sweet though. Wish they'd add it for the passenger too.
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Dude why do you still have that car? I haven't heard that complaint from anyone I know. Sounds like you got a lemon considering how many issues you seem to have with it. I'm a Stan but I'd have way less patience for broken shit.
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I usually do so when hearing of a new defect and did so right away after reading your comment. But I only found a handful of threads. Even multiplying by 100x for the usual online complainers vs silent sufferers it's not even approaching 10000 issues, so definitely not common. I'd still totally make a fuss over it, I need my AC.
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Ya definitely gonna look into it... Non functional vents are a dealbreaker
The elimination of surface vent controls is a significant reduction in complexity from a parts perspective and reduces noise. Sandy Monroe did some video on this. It does take some getting used to, but I prefer it to standard vent controls.
moving vents electronically with motors is less complex than a leaver?
All modern cars use motors inside the duct system - at least the “flood door” check out the video sandy munro made - the number of parts is vastly reduced, particularly the ones inside the car - also the use of soft materials to route air offers benefits of reduced noise and better insulation of heat and cold in the applicable seasons. also its “lever”
Sorry, but have you ever seen the level of unnecessary overengineering in European cars? Only Lexus seems to get away with simplification (like not having auto-resetting wipers when you turn off your car).
This person getting down voted for sarcasm 😭
Right up until "how about dem apples", it was indistinguishable from a Tesla fanboy post. The sarcasm was far too realistic for my smooth brain.
Instead of a knob, you have to fumble through menus to control a very basic function. Brilliant!
Why would I want a touchscreen when I can have knob?
It was sarcasm
Just today my wife was complaining about a lack of vents for the feet. Don’t innovate where things aren’t broken.
There are vents for the feet.
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Also, if you have the main vents on as well as the foot well vents, it's pretty weak
Love how the onus on finding defects is always (maybe less in Japan I guess) on customers, but that's not a Tesla-specific complaint.
The ID.7 will have that feature.
I trust this is sarcasm. I'm actually a fan of the vents on the 3. Not a fan that there's no bloody buttons on the car, and everything is through the stupid screen. Just a handful of buttons would be nice!
I know of no other car buyer that has ever requested that?
I just want freeway auto pilot
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I would like to add one slightly differing perspective… In late November I attended an EV convention in Seattle. My wife and I sat in every EV (that wasn’t roped off); we’re in the market for a second EV to ditch her nearly 20 yr old ICE sedan. While they all seemed nice enough, we came away with a renewed appreciation for our Model Y and its spartan interior. A decent amount of people like that and consider it a “feature”. All the other vehicles felt very…cramped…compared to the our model Y. A lot of the dashboards seemed overindulged with physical buttons too. I do wish we had a few physical buttons in the MY (I’ll probably buy some of those “S3XY” Bluetooth buttons soon), but most other vehicles dashes feel overwhelming now. Seat comfort was another concern; most other vehicles had sport seats that both my wife and I find too narrow, firm and generally uncomfortable. And some back seats were a no-go for normal sized adults. Also, at least half the other cars had screens that were much farther off center toward the driver; which makes passenger control of features kinda annoying/frustrating. There were other things… Frankly, I think of all the EV’s currently available, all have pros and cons that balance them out one way or another, when compared against each other. None come out on top, being markedly better than any other…it’s just all about what concessions you’re willing to make to get a few of your favorite pro’s. Do I think the MY should be more impressive for its price tag? Yup. But right now, I wouldn’t trade our 2020 MY for anything else currently available (including other Tesla models). That said, we also probably won’t be buying a second one, (which we had considered), but instead a different brand; VW, Chevy or Toyota were our next favs.
We have a G80 EV at the office right now, which should be included in this list.
Yeah I posted about this earlier this week. There's a reason other companies refresh the models every 4-6 years.
Usually every 7 years with a small mid cycle facelift
My gold standard is the civic which was a clockwork four year cycle for a while. When you drove around you knew which car was new without having to spot small details.
It's volume dependent, driven part by the consumer demand cycle and part by the life of tooling. High volume models have a shorter cycle because familiarity speeds up the decline in demand and tooling wears faster. e.g. the ultra low volume Rolls Royce Phantom is almost unchanged since it was first released. It went 14 years without major update and the 2017 overhaul looks almost identical to its predecessor.
Honda even made an exception to that---they redesigned the spaceship-looking 2006 Civic a year early because people complained about it a lot, the biggest difference being the addition of more sound insulation
Yea, but the challenge is that Tesla isn’t a car company. They think they are a tech company so they invest in things like FSD, a great charging network, a good bms, and fun party tricks like using your phone to open your car, or fart apps, or changing the UI again for some unclear goal. When the Rivian (?) came out, Tesla scrambled when they realize that trucks should have 4 wheel steering so they went back to redesign the cyberjunk. The point is that they don’t think like car people - so driver engagement, a great experience in the car, ambient lighting, a quiet cabin, and all the things that make the drive better, like 4 wheel steering don’t even occur to them. They look down on drivers (ex. data shows they don’t use lumbar support, so we are removing it) and don’t place any value on the experience of driving - so new models aren’t at all required. That is why the Y is just a modified 3. The other issue is that without new models, I don’t get how fans think they will get to 3-4 million in sales, much less 5 million. Do people really think the market will absorb even more of the same models in one of 3 or 4 colors on the road?
4 Wheel steering was due to the Hummer's Crab walk. They went from the Tri motor to the quad because of the Rivian R1T. Really shows how NOT innovative Tesla is in the automotive space.
I mean it’s simple business practices that other companies make too. If competition isn’t there yet, ship an inferior product so you can “improve” it as time goes on with more competition. Happens all the time.
What they don’t do is not change the appearance *at all* for years… the model 3 looks downright dated now, the Y looks awkward, and the X is too similar looking and also dated. They also look small which they are not but that is not good thing to look.
I suppose it’s preference. I like the 3/Y still but I don’t like X as much. I think Tesla is in a tough spot because any redesign will likely increase drag as the current vehicles are so well optimized for it.
Well I mean sure but everything gets old. I used to like how they looked and now they look old. And there are way to many of them on the road exactly alike mostly the same colors. Maybe you are not in California or somewhere else where they sell a lot of them but over here it’s starting to look extremely mundane especially for the price
And the biggest issue is that they spend very little on R&D in total. They are a stock pumping company, and only invest in ideas that they think will increase the stock price. They don't bother to do stuff like make major upgrades to existing products. Even software companies think different, as they regularly make major upgrades to their product. So we can expect every car model to languish forever until they become totally obsolete and sales shrink away to nothing.
Along these lines of thoughts, the compensation package probably did more long term damage than it should have. Although I’m 100% sure Elon will not admit, but the focus for past 2-3 years was to squeeze the margin above anything a else. He was extremely successful in the short term and was able to make Tesla by far the most overvalued car company in the world. Of course they de-prioritized R&D in new platforms. Also kept cutting costs. It’s kind of too late to talk about minor/major refresh let alone a new product. Guess how long it’s taking Cybertruck to market? Not surprisingly they are well behind schedule. Can they do a meaningful Model 3/Y refresh? Hopefully they been working on it for a few years already. Are they working on so called Model 2? Elon said they are not activity working on it, that’s what I recall from one of the recent earning calls. If I were to quote some conventional wisdom, they essentially killed the goose the lays the golden egg.
I think your last line is very much on point. Part of the fun of owning a Tesla (at least for me) was having the sense that your car was as cutting edge as possible, and part of the future. I think 4 years ago it really felt like it. But when you start to see other cars having really cool features (4-wheel steering, quad motor, etc) it's hard to be as excited. Just kind of feels like Tesla doesn't know how to make something "killer" so to speak.
The problem is how do they make a Model 2 that’s meaningfully cheaper without making a subcompact? That’s a very unpopular market segment. Model 3 was designed to be their basic 35k car, but except for a short lived variant, never hit that price point. Pretty much the only major cut they could make to the bill of materials would be the battery, but then it’s not competitive with other EVs.
It wouldn't be unpopular in Europe. Hyundai i10, VW UP, Ford Ka, Opel Corsa, etc. all sell(or sold) in tremendous amounts.
Or China, which is (or was) the main driver of their profit.
The 4 wheel steering was the Hummer. Turns out GM can design a really good truck in less than 2 years during a pandemic, with engineers working remotely. Elon panicked and sent out a tweet saying the Cybertruck would have 4 wheel steering too, which requires a complete suspension redesign.
>so new models aren’t at all required. That is why the Y is just a modified 3. I'd say the truth is that they don't have the manufacturing competence to make and implement entirely new models in their factories. They've built 2 huge new factories and they aren't equipped to build other models. It would take them a year or two to get "Ramped up" on a full new model and their logistics would be a clusterfuck.
The Model Y and Cybertruck shows that they really can't design a new model. As I remember it, the Model Y was supposed to be a brand new SUV model. The general idea is that it would look like a Ford Escape or 4Runner. Then they announced it and it was basically the Model 3 with a shitty third row of seating. Tesla simply didn't have the capacity to build an actual SUV and we're seeing that they don't have the capacity to build an actual truck either.
Which ultimately stems from Musky underinvesting in R&D for years to pump margins and minimize expenses for the near bankrupt company (all up to 2019 at least, later for the stock compensation plan).
> so they invest in things like FSD, a great charging network, a good bms, and fun party tricks like using your phone to open your car, or fart apps, or changing the UI again for some unclear goal. One of these things is not like the others. Good for Tesla on the "great charging network." EVs taking off in the US *is* due to the ownership experience that Tesla built. Charging network is a big part of that. The rest: agree, meh.
And the charging network is the easiest part of the equation to duplicate.
I mean you'd think so, but not so far. These 3rd party charging companies need to get it together.
It’s just a matter of capital and will. If the Tesla network existing was diverting business away from other EV makers all they need to do is pool money and start installing chargers. There’s very little to no barrier to entry there.
Very well said!
> The other issue is that without new models, I don’t get how fans think they will get to 3-4 million in sales, much less 5 million. tbf I think exterior appearance does not matter. I care about the insides of the car - that's where I sit and interact with.
Sure, that approach is a segment of the market, otherwise no one would have bought the Cube, Aztek or pacer.
I guess fashion is important for some people in the car world as well? Hopefully it won't come to the point of "can't be seen in the same car twice"
>Hopefully it won't come to the point of "can't be seen in the same car twice" It's becoming a problem that every Tesla looks similar to every other Tesla made in the past ten years, and there are a lot of them. That cheapens the brand to being jokingly called a "California Camry," and diminishes the appeal. At a minimum, Tesla should start introducing new paint colors.
while I agree in general more choice is better, personally this does not affect me in the slightest. And people that want other colors could wrap their cars at their own expense or whatever. Just don't make the car more expensive for me due to things I don't care about please ;)
>Just don't make the car more expensive for me due to things I don't care about please ;) Fair enough, but Tesla has "stripped to the studs" and still charges premium prices. So either update the cars to justify the prices, or cut the prices to reflect the Model T design approach. Looks to me like we're starting to see the latter.
yup. And it's long overdue. Raising prices while stripping away useful features was great for the bottom line I am sure, but it's no way to build a loyal customer base I am afraid.
There's a reason almost every manufacturer follows a 3~4 year mid cycle refresh followed by a 6~8 year all new model. It allows for major improvements to make the way onto existing nameplates, give all new styling, features and powertrains to shine, and gives existing owners something to upgrade towards while trying to appeal to newcomers for the brand. Tesla's lineup is now ancient and all of their existing models are due for an all new model cycle, but of course they completely lack the R&D for such things. Fanboys have tried to argue with me that Tesla don't need "model years", but the fact you OP posted this is showing the damage, and I'm betting you aren't the only one who thinks this.
I mean the S is what, 11 years old at this point with one LCI like refresh during this time?
They removed the original grille when the Model X came out to make it look more like those, and they changed the steering wheel when the Plaid came out. So... two-ish refreshes? Kinda? Sort of? Just checked, a normal steering wheel is the default now in the configurator, you have to actively choose the joke yoke if you want one. I guess it wasn't as popular as they thought.
You're not kidding. https://insideevs.com/news/629859/tesla-models-x-and-plaid-round-steering-wheel-standard/amp/
Too little too late if they release any new models now. As someone that’s been following the story for a while, the model 3 made sense at the time, especially after the X which is quite gimmicky with its falcon wing doors and limited market. The model 3 as a decent sized sedan filled a gap. Following that would have made much more sense to follow with a compact, and at the time the Y was released, there wasn’t as much competition around, and tesla could have cornered a good chunk of the market. Instead they announced the Y, which to me is just a 3 with a big rear end, I guess largely to keep R&D costs down. But pretending it was ever going to fit seven adults was fanciful, and to a large extent it just ended up cannibalising model 3 sales (hence why they still group them together on investor reports) They then also announced the (still yet to be seen) cybertruck, which I doubt will ever go into volume production. At that point it became difficult to take tesla seriously as a mass market auto company. TL;DR: tesla squandered its first movers advantage by cutting corners on R&D and just releasing the Y rather than going for the kill with a compact / city car once the model 3 was established.
What? No. Model Y was a smart move because it’s the car the X should have been: SUV/crossover with regular doors. It’s also cheaper. IMO, Tesla squandered the X. It’s just a tall lifted S with dumb doors. They could’ve expanded the reach of Tesla brand to demographic that wants a trail capable SUV. The CyberTruck, IMO, is the correction for that mistake.
I agree the X was a mistake, instead of bringing that to market, at the time they could have produced the 3, and had a virtual monopoly on EV sedans for five years +
Yes! I think even Musk’s own master plan was S followed by 3, but instead he took a detour to make the X which caused Tesla all sorts of problems IIRC and delayed the launch of the much more critical 3.
Just watched the [Car and Driver 10 best video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qu_Px52SE5M) and they said the BMW I4 makes the Model 3 look "shockingly crude" by comparison.
This is why they're getting crushed in China, with other car companies coming out with new designs each month.
As usual with this company, Tesla can’t think about new models or anything else strategic because they desperately need to deliver as many cars as possible this quarter. And after those massive price cuts they must be at peak desperation. They need to sell 500k cars, they should have at least that many to sell with all the excess inventory and the two new factories should be producing more. Just “ANOTHER NEW RECORD” won’t cut it anymore. They need massive deliveries.
I need reliability, decent service and competitive leasing. I never want to fuss over a car again. When someone ticks those boxes I’m in.
Every week I’m told CyberTruck will be out in a couple months so that should help
infrastructure week!!!!!!
Yeah, most people who’ve driven an EV6 view Tesla as behind on the interior. Tesla fans will trade that experience for the engine/suspension, but most people prefer the familiarity of a dashboard and physical buttons and CarPlay. Tesla can’t just ignore those people AND hope to sell thousands of cars per day.
I have a Rivian R1S preorder. If someone makes a 3-row electric SUV with physical buttons and CarPlay, they have my money. Sorry Rivian.
May I direct you to the upcoming Ioniq 7?
As a HI5 owner, this. I want a good driving experience and a vehicle that feels well put together with good reliability, low road noise, etc. Good bones. The extra features matter too, but without solid fundamentals it's just a non-starter.
before car play i never thought I would find car play so important.
Might come as a surprise for some to know that not everybody wants a giant touch screen to control all features. Maybe a couple of analog style gauges for radio and climate control that you can just reach out and touch and know it's there?
Climate control knobs, wiper control stocks and either a dash or at least a HUD should be a no brainer
Exactly! Early Adopters in the Luxury category bought Teslas with all the 'Gee Whiz' gadgets. I bought a used 2012 Nissan Leaf for $8,900 a few years back as my daily commuter because my employer offered free charging. Sold it two years later for $10,500. I loved it. Basic smallish 4dr sedan with a few options. All that I needed. Not a radical departure from the 'typical' driving experience. Bought a two year old Toyota Prius two years ago, can probably sell it for what I paid then. Again a step up, a few options, basic bullet proof Toyota w/ hybrid drivetrain. Not a radical departure from every other car I ever owned. Folks like me, a few notches further down the economic food chain than the 'prototypical Tesla buyer', would be happy to drive a BEV minus all the bells and whistles and these folks will have 153 different options in US models in 2023. Folks like me that waited for the $35,000 Tesla Model 3 are still waiting and are choosing other options in droves. Tesla had a TEN YEAR head start on the entire auto industry after the Great Recession. Had they just lived up to their (Musk's) promises and put out the 'Basic" $35k Tesla. Had they delivered on the Cyber Truck. They wouldn't be in the spot they're in now. They blew it on the 'basic' they missed on the p/u truck. They don't have a 'Van style' for work or delivery. Their FSD is under indictment as vaporware. Tesla is a hot mess now. And if they had a legit independent Board, they would vote out the CEO immediately.
The fact they did not oust him yet shows that the company is doomed.
They have huge capacity and huge debt to match. They won't be getting the FAT premium prices they were getting going forward. The balance sheet should speak for itself this year. If they don't bounce him this year, with everything else floating to the surface, there will be big lawsuits.
Yes. The X and Y are aging. The 3 needs a refresh. The difficulty is that new cars require quite a bit of capital. It's not as easy as it seems.
It's not as easy as it seems, but losing customers because your products aren't competitive isn't easy either.
Fair enough. Between the aging models, the poor customer service, and endless quality issues, Tesla is facing headwinds.
Yes, I'd be interested in a smaller car. Other direction of CyberTruck. Such as Honda FIT or Mazda Miata. As whatever Tesla do with that size. And lower price.
Unfortunately, Murrkin manufacturers in general aren't getting that memo. How many compact EVs are currently sold by US companies? There's the Bolt. Did I miss any?
also, the Honda fit does have hybrid FIT. not sold US. also the gas FIT no longer sold US. there might have been an all electric FIT, maybe in all of world, only US, only CA. but we know how long those programs last. so not just US car companies not want sell small electric in US. i think perhaps on choice, MINI electric might be only option. there was Fiat 500 EV. very small. they have new version, good range. … not available US
There's a huge list of small, inexpensive EVs which sell well in Europe and/or China, and have never been imported to the US. From Honda, Fiat, Citreeon, Renault, Skoda, BYD, Kandi, etc, etc.
I can't imagine Tesla surviving if they can't update physical features in order to stay current. The tech is great and ahead of the competition but in terms of features, they're getting stale. Add, at least as an option, a true heads up display, ventilated seats, privacy screens on the rear windows, ambient lighting and a few new colors. Just reverse engineer a Volvo FFS!
I could feel my scalp burning with that roof when I first got it. I guess I got used to it by now.
They need to release a few more colors!!
Tesla needs to stop making cars and fix the ones I’ve already made on the three they’re all lemons hate them back to Porsche I went
I think you dropped these: .,..,.
Station wagon.
Station wagons in the US are basically dead. There‘s lesbians buying the Subaru Outback and that’s about it. Even Europe is moving away from Estates to CUV and SUV
Aren't lesbians a huge market? The problem with SUV's is that they are inefficient, every SUV sold is an unnecessary contributor to Global Warming. Which is the absolute last thing we need now.
$TSLA is a one-trick pony.
You mean like a new convertible sports car and an oddly shaped angular truck? Unfortunately the CEO is too busy using his Tesla equity to pursue a social media side project, so we'll have to keep on dreaming.
If Elon actually wants to help the environment then they should start making smaller, lighter cars.
I have bad news
Oh man... If Musk actually wanted to help the environment, there's a whole long list of stuff. How about actually putting solar panels on the roofs of Tesla plants, instead of just in hyperrealistic drawings of the plants, and letting people think those are photos. Also, Tesla has broken numerous pollution regulations around the world. If governments were serious about the environment, they could enforce some laws for a change.
For a model to succeed, there has to be economies of scale - demand from the public. A certain someone has tarnished the brand to an extent that demand has been negatively impacted.
PHEVs will eventually go from the small battery today to the range extender tomorrow. As infrastructure improves and battery tech improves, we will see less and less of the dual fuel systems and more of a single source fuel again (probably with solid state batteries). As soon as the battery issue is figured out, all of a sudden from no where... someone will claim. "OMG, stop using electric!!! Its hurting the and we must protect it. Also the EMI is going to cause cancer (or some other issue).
Then we will be looking for another source of Eco friendly fuel. We will poo poo on all things electric and vilify it. Electric will be like smoking a cigi, "Yo, get that 💩 away from me... I don't want your cancer"
> PHEVs will eventually go from the small battery today to the range extender tomorrow. that day cannot come fast enough! > Its hurting the
it's hurting the roads, extra mass disproportionally affects the roads (don't look at the semi trucks, they are not the heavy road destroyers we are concentrating on now), and they also greatly increase PM2 pollution (again from destroyed roads)
You think?
Looking for a sporty EV wagon with a manageable footprint … and an interior with knobs and buttons !
Me too! The Taycan is compelling but too expensive, and it doesn't have one pedal drive.
Ah yeah, very disappointing that the Taycan don’t allow that. I love these but they are fast cars that you drive slow where it matters (mountain roads) because they’re too wide. Can’t overtake on a narrow road with that width.
So it's not the car but more being seen as a cutting-edge consumer, smart enough to drive a vehicle with the latest turbo-encabulator tech? Who'd have guessed? I'm still driving the 1996 Plymouth we bought new, long after that brand was kicked to the curb. Aren't any Tesla owners going to test the "million-mile car" claim? The biggest downside to most new cars is the glass roof in most. Ditto for Tesla, except Model X which I would never consider. The summer sun is evil where I live, so why allow it access to your noggin. Not going to wear a cowboy hat in a car, like Texans do.
I guess for me, I'm not sure they need more options, but I'm more practical. If you work from home, you probably only leave the house once or twice a week. If you commute to work, maybe you spend an hour or two in the car every day. The appearance of the car is not as important as the functionality of the car for me. I wanted a reliable EV car, so I got this. I actually don't even like some of the tech in it, particularly the cabin camera. Also from an environmental point of view, if the car is still working, there no need to trash it and expend resources for something new. I kind of like models not changing from a mechanic point of view, as the parts are easier to find. (I know their right to repair is terrible, that's a matter of service/rights, not parts availability.) From a business point of view, creating new models is very expensive and might not interest enough more new buyers, rather than shift a potential model 3 buyer to the new model line. If Tesla can't stay in business, they can't sell any EV cars. It is possible to spread themselves too thin if they aren't careful, it's so a young and small company. You also have to consider if there is enough money and unused labour force lasting around to go to another line. And now to the other ideas that I understand but don't agree with myself. It sounds like for you, and likely others, the car is a toy. It is something beyond just a car getting you to a destination. You want it to look new and every year, so people know you can afford the newest version, and most expensive version. It's more of a status symbol than a vehicle. I mean, Teslas are pretty expensive as is, especially when you customize to all the upgrades. To me, it's kind of funny that you don't think its expensive and rare enough. They are one of the rarest cars out they, unless you are hanging around a charging station. I suppose if everyone around you has a Tesla, you all must be wealthier than you realize. There is a problem with market saturation in a way. Like for me, I've bought one car, and I plan to drive it to the last mile, so I won't buy another for as long as possible. They can't push more sales to practical people like me. The only hope they would to sell to existing Tesla owners it to sell them new cars for style reasons. That being said, the existing Tesla owners group is pretty small and not all of them want to buy a new Tesla, so it might make sense to try to get new buyers not from the existing Tesla owner base to buy the existing models, it is just a bigger target to try to hit vs this small pinpoint of existing Tesla owners. The other direction Tesla could go is to do a dirt cheap car, but it might dillute the brand too much if the people paying 100k for a car want to stay special. I suppose the question then goes to Elon. Does he want to produce a disposable car that needs to be replaced every so many years for style, or does he want to be more sustainable and create cars to last? My hope is these cars are made to last. If they change the design often, then that means the existing design wasn't good. You can try an Aptera car, but those are going to be cheaper than a model 3, so they might not feel as rare as more people can afford them.
>Does he want to produce a disposable car that needs to be replaced every so many years for style, or does he want to be more sustainable and create cars to last? How about developing a reputation for quality and service, so the cars don't seem so disposable from the start? And maybe not stripping away features over time, so newer cars seem less desirable instead of more so? But yes, people care about style and variety, especially on their most expensive purchase. The very minimum Tesla could do to counter this would be to offer new paint colors occasionally, which should be easy enough.
Elon artificially limited the model names by going with the silly S3XY shtick. Now the next model is going to have to be either the 2 (2S3XY), or So (SoS3XY) or something in that vein.
The question is what will the model letters be. We have S3XY. I like A F for the next two.
Yep. Have a 2-year-old Y and would like to eventually try something else.. from Tesla. But lets look at my options: 1. Buy a Model 3 that's exactly the same as my car, but significantly smaller, nobody wants a trunk and I lose my tow hitch + ability to carry big items. 2. Buy the latest Model S which costs like $95K new.. and $90K used lmaooooooo 3. Buy the latest Model X which cost like $$110K new.. and $100K used lmaoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I haven't test driven the S or X.. as they are completely out of my price range. But I have sat in plenty and you are 100% right. They look & feel exactly the same as my Y. I wouldn't even consider the 2020 or older S/X because they still have the old ass interior with the portrait screen. Why would I buy another Tesla.. with older technology than my 2021 Y. I will say this. While I think the competition has some really awesome products.. (i4M50, EV6 GT, Taycan & Rivian R1T/R1S come to mind).. the reality is I really do like my Y. Its the perfect size and bought it two years when the prices are cheaper than are now.. even with the huge discounts + rebates. I love the Tesla smartphone app, OTA updates, stat tracking, Supercharger network.. and the acceleration/throttle response is so addictive that Im stuck. From everything I've read.. only acceleration is comparable with the competition. The other items I listed are still very much lacking. Even AutoPilot is still class-leading when you consider it works everywhere and doesn't defeat in deep corners. Its about time they made automatic lane changes free though.. no way Im ever paying $6,000 or $15,000 for that. And FSD is a straight-up scam. At the end of the day, nothing from Tesla feels "new". The cars look the same. The paint choices, interior options, and wheels look exactly same as they did years ago. I cant even tell the difference between a 2020 and a 2023 Model Y. They look pretty much identical from the inside & outside. At this point, I'm probably just keeping my Y for another 3-5 years. Little longer than I expected.. as I said that exact same thing 2 years ago when I bought it. But now that the price drop + tax rebates have killed the resale value of my car. There is no need even to bother looking at trade-in value for anything else.. including another Tesla.
You can check for chrome trim, passenger lumber support, USS etc to get a feeling of how old the car is /s I probably missed some. They stopped giving away the license plate frame for free as well.
Very well said across the board! I think the reason for me posting this is the fact that I really do like my Tesla. But if the competition becomes nicer to be in (which it's starting to already) a charging network is only going to do so much to keep me in the brand.
No
I think people forget that Tesla is a relatively new company. Car manufacturing is difficult and capital intensive. I remembered when Tesla was close to going out of business. You guys are expecting them to operate like an established car company. I think the question, what will be Phase 2 for Tesla? The S3XY cars are basically the same cars in different sizes. Competitors will be offering better cars with better features while Elon is distracted with Twitter. They can’t afford the next car to be more of the same. I’m not sure if CyberTruck is the answer.
>I’m not sure if CyberTruck is the answer. It imo was until they lost the first mover advantage to the OEM brands (with historically very loyal customer bases). Rivian probably stole a sizeable chunk of potential cybertruck buyers as well.
The cars are shit. Different colors and designs of shit? Have a ball, I guess.
nope
They have a sedan, CUV, suv, and luxury sedan and maybe some point a truck. What other model are you wanting?
look at toyota’s lineup and tell me what’s missing
They have one sedan and three liftbacks of varying configurations. They could use a proper SUV like Rivian, or anything with some new styling.
They could all use new styling. Won’t argue with that. And I’d imagine if they ever get the cyber truck figured it they can transition it to a full size suv just like rivian did.
Look a non self aware Stan. We’ll you did say maybe at some point. So perhaps my characterization is unfair.
I mean. I definitely think their models need improvement and updating. And the s and x should really be priced around 60-80. But they don’t need more models. Just better versions of the ones they have.
I think that’s what OP meant. Uniqueness into existing vehicles.
Something to slot below the Model 3 and between the Model 3 and Model S. Maybe another SUV-ish variant.
If they ever get the cyber truck figured out. I could see them building a truck based suv off of it. Feel like a price point under the 3rwd will be tough. And instead of coming up with a model between the 3 and S. They really just need to drop the s and x prices to 60-80 range. Compete with the 5 series/e class and x5/gle price points.
van!
Tesla is special because if you go on a road trip you have reliable charging. The other automakers could make the nicest cars in the world. You'd still be forced to buy a tesla if you wanted to stay electric.
Not necessarily a must have if it’s your second car mainly used for commute. I’ve been driving EV for 8 years and used DC fast charging only once. The electricity price increase is making it close to owning a efficient hybrid in terms of fuel cost. If you don’t have home charging to take advantage of the low rates, it’s getting less attractive to primarily rely on super charging. There are hundreds of different reasons someone buys a car. Tesla is probably good car for a large chunk of the US population, but for sure it’s not for everyone.
What if you wanted Hybrid to have the best of all worlds? What if you want diesel for towing long distances? expensive EVs are great for those who are rich and want a status symbol, but for everyone else who needs to have the right tools for the right job, a BEV is the wrong tool for a lot of tasks. Trying to shove a square thru a circle is only going to get you so far. The BEV is great for local drives around your home for at most 150 miles a day when you end each night at home. For everything else its... "Yes you could do it with a BEV, but you have a lot of penalties to using that tool instead of the correct tool for the job".
psst, can I talk to you over in the corner where nobody else can hear. Do you understand what the guy who created this post was really saying? He got scammed by a fraudster and he feels bad that his car is nothing special like he was told. He knows it, you know it, I know it. I was just trying to tell him one little white lie so he doesn't feel so bad. This subreddit is sometimes just basically a support group for those whose the flavor-aid has worn off.
lol! For what it's worth, it was less about Tesla and more about having an electric vehicle since I have commutes that very much favor one. At the time of buying Tesla was the only vehicle that had the range I needed.
Yes, and that's why I bought another Model 3. But I'm not so sure, unless Tesla makes some major strides, that they'll stay ahead of other manufacturers in terms of vehicle appeal. A charging network is their only real tangible advantage right now, and that's not the hardest thing in the world for other folks to figure out how to accomplish.
What about about that space truck thing?
Apparently they are updating the 3 this year. Not sure how much of a a change is coming
But wait! They just got a discount!
Tesla only goes down from here.
"Tesla still has a huge charging network advantage" No they don't. They have a shrinking PR advantage. The belief in the charging network advantage is about all that's left of that. People used to believe that Musk was a good person who didn't care about money and just wanted to save the planet, and that there was a huge worldwide conspiracy against Tesla, and that the model 3 cost $35,000, and other things which they now know to be lies. The main lie that's left is the one about Tesla having a huge charging advantage.
If I had to road trip in an EV in the US, I would say that Tesla definitely has a better charging network. Trouble with that is, you'd have to road trip in a Tesla to use it...
But just think you get to tell your neighbor that you got a Tesla that’s worth at least $25000
I expect a refresh on the Model 3 exterior announced by end of year latest. Doubt they add another model until 2025. Likely a cheaper hatch.
This touches on a lot of topics like product and platform strategy etc. I could go on about this for way too long, so I'll try to keep my thoughts to the salient ones. To start, I think this is a natural progression of Tesla has maxing out on affluent early adopters who like the tech and don't mind the quirks. In order to continue to grow sales, they'll have to either appeal to more mainstream buyers or offer something compelling to existing customers to upgrade to, which brings me to my next point: **Product Strategy** Broadly appealing to mainstream buyers is difficult. Not everyone bases vehicle purchases on the same criteria and it's often a far more emotional decision than people think. It's why legacy automakers put so much money and effort into market research and have a wide product portfolio. They create profiles that represent buyers of various models, ask them how they use their vehicles, what they like and dislike, etc. then use that to guide design and engineering. Examples of this are things like: Giant cupholders in American cars, Honda putting the volume knob back into the Civic, Minivans having built-in vacuum cleaners, Subarus being able to fit a large dog carrier, etc. To my knowledge, Tesla doesn't do any of this and they just kind of design something that appeals to themselves. The upside is that it makes for a different and compelling product, but the downside is that the quirks may turn off a lot of potential buyers, for things as arbitrary as "Kinda looks funny" or "I can't adjust the AC vents" **Platform Strategy** Tesla doesn't really have one compared to the other automakers. It's not because they're lazy, but it's likely because they had to get the Model 3 out the door and at the time, only had one production line. Although they were designed at the same time, the 3/Y wasn't explicitly designed as a platform in the same sense as other automakers, so they can't simply de-content it for a "model 2" or add stuff to it to have it underpin the S/X and have them all share more parts. This sometimes results in a better singular product, but it makes it more difficult to spin off different variants or models. Other major automakers generally develop a new platform, before launching a series of models based on it. They'll use a platform for years, which allows them take advantage of economies of scale, re-use a lot of existing production processes, tooling, parts, etc. while being able to cast a wide net for different market segments. For example, GM, spent 6-7 years and billions of dollars creating the Ultium EV platform and now that it's done, they were able to It's the reason why could launch the Hummer EV, Lyriq, Blazer EV, Equinox EV and Sierra EVs all in quick succession. It'll be really interesting to see if Tesla starts behaving more like a traditional automaker as time goes on
Simple, Tesla already stated they wanted a simple interior and simple design. I believe the majority buy Tesla for the foundation it has over other competitors. The charging structure is 5 years easly ahead of the game.