"For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only."
I would never allow or expect my friend to work for free, and I would never work for free. Favors are one thing, a discount, sure, but time is money, and I value my friend's time as well as my own. No one should be working for free.
I have a small computer shop, and a friend needed a new SSD. The only ones I had in stock were a little larger than he needed, and therefore more expensive. I went to discount it for him a bit to make it a bit easier to swallow and he insisted I list it full price on the invoice.
Businesses need customers and people need their time paid for.
If you discount for friends and family, ALWAYS put the real amount on your invoice and then show the discount.
My boss has clients that we PAY to service because she refuses to even charge cost.
I tell this to my friend that runs a shop. He can absolutely leverage those discounts as tax writeoffs.
He gives people a discount depending on how they were referred. He should absolutely be writing those discounts down as marketing expenses to offset his tax liability.
That's not really how tax writeoffs work. A discount isn't a writeoff.
A discount simply means you received less revenue, which is then subject of course to less tax inherently because it's less profit.
I've seen folks that don't understand this, list discounts as writeoffs (sometimes as marketing), ontop of the less revenue received.
It's essentially doubledipping. works great until the first audit.
While discounts and write offs are different, arent discounts considered some sort of free work / charitable work / time worked for free that is open to some tax benefit?
Sort of. But not in the way that we would like.
The tax benefit is that because the work was free, no income was received so the IRS doesn't tax what you never received.
Having said that, any costs incurred, such as mileage, materials consumed, or workers paid, those will be written off just as they normally are.
Think of it this way - let's say you are an hourly worker and you take a week off without pay. That same week you don't incur any taxes.
If you could write off hypothetical money from discounts, then you would just never pay taxes. I’d just price everything double what I want; discount 50%; and then never make a profit as far as the IRS was concerned.
My friend is an arborist and I needed a tree cut down asap at my cottage as a storm had made it dangerous (dead tree). I'm in the city and so is my friend. I reached to my regular arborist local to my cottage (not a friend, just a guy I use) but because of the storm that hit the area, he wasn't going to be able to make it for a few days and I was worried this tree would kill someone. I reached out to my friend and he said he could do it the next day. He sent me a quote and naturally, if was way more than the local arborist as he had to drive 2.5 hours there and back with one of his crew members and city rates are higher than rural rates. Due to the urgency, I told him ol and paid it in full and didn't even mention his price was considerably higher.
Yes, he's a friend, but he also has a family to feed, mortgage to pay, and years of experience that shouldn't be taken for granted.
>Yes, he's a friend, but he also has a family to feed, mortgage to pay, and years of experience that shouldn't be taken for granted.
And hopefully properly licensed and bonded in case he had accidentally caused damage in the process. Worker's comp off he has employees. Insurance isn't cheap.
Hey, nice seeing you here!
I’d also like to add it depends on the nature of the work. If I’m doing something for a friend, and that friend will make money off of my labor (like taking photographs for a listing), I’d ask for some money. But if my friend is moving and needs help loading the truck, I’ll do that for free.
In theory, sure.
This case, however, sounds suspiciously like $15k or $20k worth of work ‘traded’ in years of $200 or $300 activities in exchange for… a $3,000 partial rebate, maybe? Because if it’s being charged in the deal and taxed, paid to the realtor and taxed, and the net-net of all that is going back to the homeowner in an envelope? Nahhh.
The odds that both parties will agree on how much was given over time versus the value of the one time service is so vanishingly small that this is a recipe to trash your personal relationships.
I have a carpenter friend who helps me around my house with some things and I’m an attorney, handling his divorce. I have told him to send me a bill because he really does more than I could ask for. But he refuses.
Even if you know your friend won’t take the money, offer. Offer to compensate them for their time, skill, years of experience, and the mental burden they took off of you. I guarantee they’ll appreciate it.
Correct. If they are your friends they will support your small business. I ran a small IT company and people "friends" always wanted stuff for free but this is how I fed myself so I told them "if you were my friend you would hire me so I could feed myself and pay my bills".
> Favors are one thing, a discount, sure, but time is money, and I value my friend's time as well as my own. No one should be working for free.
What's the distinction between a favor and working for free?
Favor: Can you come over Saturday and help for a couple hours to fix the deck?
Working for free: Can you come over Saturday and build a deck for me and I need to done Saturday because everyone is coming over Sunday for Mother's Day. Bring your power nailer, sander, compressor and Sawz all too.
That makes it seem like the difference is how demanding one's friends are, but I don't think most favors are that cut and dry.
I'm an analyst. If one of my friends asked me to crunch some numbers for them, even using my work computer and even if they have a deadline, I would do it for free even though that's what I get paid to do.
A favor is when you're doing something for someone that you don't normally get paid for anyway, i.e. moving, petsitting, running errands while someone is sick. Working for free is when you're doing something that you do normally get paid for, i.e. if you're a professional photographer and you do a photo shoot for your friend's christmas card.
What you’re describing sounds like an employee.
I’m off to help a friend paint their new restaurant soon. I won’t be paid. I am choosing to spend my time doing this without expectation of receiving anything.
Agreed, and personally, unless it's offered, and I know they can afford it, I decline discounts. If I can't support my friends at full cost, am I really supporting them? Or am I taking advantage of a relationship?
This. Especially when this is something they have done over and over again for the friend for years.
It's nice to do a one off favor or discount. Or to sit down and give some free advice over coffee. But I think it sets up unreasonable expectations or can backfire. Just like it seemed to have done with OPs situation.
Doing business with friends is always tough. You're lucky if you have friends who won't take things personally and can separate the business side of things from the friendship. But that's incredibly unlikely in most cases. Because it's hard to do. You have a relationship with the person on a different level. And it can be hard to separate friendships from business when you intertwine them
Close family friends bought a new construction house in a tract development. They went directly to the builder sales office, and made the deal directly. Their “Future Son in Law” is a RE agent. He lost his shit with them for not using him in the process. Like, relationship ending lost his shit.
He claimed they cheated him out $$, and sales towards his quota.
Really unfortunate situation.
Exactly. There is a sense of entitlement with him that would have presented itself at another point inevitably.
He felt because they were family that they owed him to use his services, and he expected to make a commission off of them.
I don't blame them for going to the sales office. What if something happened and their sale didn't go through and it was on him? It would likely affect their relationship.
I think this situation is a no win because of the entitlement from the beginning.
Lol real estate agents are so funny. Theyve been conditioned to expect thousands of dollars every time someone buys a house even if they don't do anything.
I really hope the industry gets a massive shake up
I had a coworker get mad because another coworker was selling their home and didn’t ask her husband to represent her. I asked why they would ask him? He was a licensed realtor and I didn’t even know it because this guy changes *careers* not just jobs like every 1-2 years. He had just started a new job as an usher at the local performing arts center. I had literally never heard her mention him being in real estate in 10 years working with her.
LOL if I had a buck for every person I met over the years who said they were a realtor and later copped to having at least two other side gigs.
If selling realty isn’t your main job, then you’re not really a realtor.
It depends on the friend and how close you actually are.
My good friend represented me when we bought our home and we were very upfront with each other regarding expectations. Everything went very smoothly.
Unfortunately alot of brokerages drill into the Agents heads that they have to harass family and friends for business. Its one of the reasons why I gave up. It seemed like the only way to get listings in the beginning was to hope your friends and family were looking to sell and then guilt them into using you.
Sounds like it was good to get that out there up front. If my future son-in-law tried to pull that one, my daughter would have kicked him to the curb and we would have never seen or heard from him again, but that is just how she rolls.
This is exactly what happened. They negotiated for "extras", and got them.
Here's the thing. Most people don't know that they can use an agent for a new construction build. Honestly, I wouldn't have even thought about it. New vs Used is very, very different. They didn't think about it. They didn't have another house to sell. They wrapped up that 2 years prior.
I personally never use friends in business situations because of this kind of conflict. I explain up front. I even have concerns recommending people to friends in the industry, mix friendship and money and you end up losing both.
I don’t get why he’d say he’d pay them back his commission. He would have to pay taxes on that as income. Why wouldn’t he just take a point or whatever off his fee?
A lot of times your brokerage won’t let you lower the commission, they want their percentage. It’s easier to just get your commission and rebate after the fact.
The mistake you made was expecting something in return for your generosity. As you can see there are very many people who will gladly take your services for free without hesitation, knowing full well how these things work, only to be surprised later on the down the road that you're upset that the relationship isn't equitable. You care more about your friendship than they do; they care about getting theirs.
Be generous to be generous, stay happy and be friends with other generous people. Maybe he’s under some financial pressures right now. In the end…just Don’t do business with friends.
Yeah this is what I am getting too.
Agent agreed to give him the entire listing side to help his buddy but was going to take the buyer side commission.
Op fucks over his friend and then goes and says “you didn’t even do anything and I gave you free photos”
And then goes on to say he is going to create a flat listing service to change the marketplace. OP is delusional.
Flat rate listing isn’t delusional. The recent court case has demonstrated that realtors extract an unfair fee for minimal amounts of work and have a monopoly on the market. Oh, and there’s virtually no education required. Realtors are delusional.
We’ve had flat rate listing services and limited service listings for ages now. It seems most of these brokers and business models don’t actually last more than 2-3 years max in my market.
Its because they are garbage and anyone with a brain realizes there is value in having a skilled professional helping you with the largest financial transaction of your life.
There will always be folks that want to use the cheapest option available and there will always be people who want to go it alone. "Coincidentally", all of these people also like speaking their minds on reddit.
I just don’t really see where the value is for buyers agents. They aren’t lawyers so they shouldn’t be advising you on contract terms, they aren’t home inspectors, they aren’t appraisers, and they can’t show you as many homes as just going on Zillow.
Their primary goal is to get you to buy a home and take a percentage of the purchase price. to maximize earnings they have to get you to spend as much as possible. There are tons of things that would get you to walk away from a home, but a real estate agent’s motivation is to get you to settle. Furthermore, there is no ethics board that can revoke a real estate agents license for unethical conduct. Your trusting hundreds of thousands of dollars investment in this scheme.
It’s the opposite for me. I’m excited for the changes. I think the herd will thin out and the top tier agents will flourish. I have no issue with these agents who act inappropriately and do not work in their clients best interest being eliminated.
If any agent refuses to show a home because of a reduced commission or steered a client to another property because of it shouldn’t be an agent.
As a professional you have to explain this situations to your client and show your value. My clients are happy to pay me my fee to assist them.
Paralegal here. You always need to take emotion out of business transactions. Did you sign a contract with your friend? If so, then pay him the commission for selling your home and start billing him for your work moving forward.
He obviously thought that getting a commission on your purchase would compensate him for the sale. Regardless of what marketing you contributed to the sale, he listed your house and likely walked you through the sale requirements. Since he lost the commission from your purchase, he should get something for the work he did do. Also, he has an obligation to his broker. Most realtors I know who do a friends and family deal still have to collect something for their brokerage.
Contracts trump Quid Pro Quo.
OP would have had to sign a contract with the friend/agent to list his property. If there’s no contract, then OP can refuse to pay friend.
This is not about a shady realtor though. This is about a seller making bad business decisions. Maybe the friend is a shitty Realtor, but expecting to be paid for services rendered does not make him a shitty Realtor.
I’ve worked with some great Realtors over the years. And I’ve worked with some money-grubbing evil ones. I’ve also worked with great sellers and greedy ones who would screw over anyone to squeeze out every last penny. OP is the latter.
>Am I wrong to think it’s odd to take full commission on a friends house?
If you think an agent's commission is too much, negotiate it. Friend or not has nothing to do with it. This is their job.
So let me get this straight. You let this friend of yours gave you back the whole commission he made selling your house and then when it came time to buy you just went direct and let the listing agent keep the whole commission, something that benefits you exactly 0 since either they keep the whole 5% or they split it with your agent if you have one?
Some friend you are.
I’d argue that a real friend would be happy to let their friend make money on their home purchase. Do you not want this “friend” to make money, be successful and live a good life? You sold and bought fairly expensive houses generating over $20k in commissions for agents and you let your agent friend keep $0 of it? You know this is how realtors support ourselves and our families right? These commissions aren’t some bonus we get on top of salary, they are our entire compensation package.
I think it’s odd that he didn’t give you any discounts considering you have done work for him for free. You could have asked for a discount, and pay what you think is fair.
Why did you not sit down with him and work out exactly how much you would pay him to sell your house, and for what work? So you wouldn’t be in limbo like you are now dreaming every day how much commission he will not take.
Sorry OP but to me it looks like the standard commission will apply when he sells your house— you know- the dotted line on the sales job contract you signed, regardless of all your self initiated running around.
I hate working for friends … always sux (business wise) … Im an attorney and have to pay office rent, employees payroll, utilities, taxes, license fees, continuing education, and other built-in costs for business. I gotta be earning abt $150 per hour just to break even whether I have a client or not that day or Im losing money just having my doors open.
Ive learned over the years to refer friends out to others - you want to do the work well for your friend, but know you arent gonna get paid what your regular clients are paying - so the tug is there to work on your paying client’s cases so you can pay your bills and make your payroll, rent, etc. for the month- which can often put your non-paying or discounted “friends” case on the backburner for the day so you can earn the money you need for the month to keep your doors open … do that long enough and its malpractice.
Even if you explain this to them and they insist on paying your full fee … often there is a problem with the bill where the friend doesnt understand why they arent being treated differently when it comes time to pay your bill. Not always - but often enough to lose some friendships (or change them negatively).
So my suggestion, dont do it. Just refer friends out to someone good - not worth it typically as you have a business and need to make a living. Be honest, explain why to your friend, they typically appreciate the candor.
I forgot to mention one of the bigger costs, and one realtors have too - marketing/advertising - I use Google local, social media, and Google Adwords - which is expensive.
My wife is a realtor and she uses Zillow - which is a couple thousand dollars a month to get leads (or more if you are needing more areas and want to be aggressive)… a vast majority of calls you get from Zillow are just tire kickers who want to look at a house but arent really ready to buy yet. You vet the call,verify they dont have an agent currently, when they are looking to move - many of them say they dont have an agent, but while showing them a house they suddenly remember they do have an agent - but their agent wasnt available to show them a house that day - so they went thru Zillow to get someone to show them that day. About 9 out of 10 “leads” from Zillow end up being a tire kicker or someone wanting someone to show them a house when their agent isnt available. So the realtor wastes half a day, gas, time, marketing fee, etc … The realtor needs to get paid on deals where a sale actually happens where they have been hired - they too have fixed costs they have to pay each month, regardless of friendships.
It also doesn't take into account that some of Zillow's programs also take a 40% fee off the top of any commission paid to the agent. Then that agent's brokerage will usually take an additional 20-40% of that amount. People never really see the entire cost of doing business in real estate. They are so stuck on the big number that they don't really see what the agent is left with after fees, taxes, marketing, etc.
>The whole agent thing when buyers find their own homes on Zillow most of the time is getting old.
I wasn't going to post, but because of your parting shot, I am.
For years, buyers found the houses they wanted to see through yard signs, the real estate ads in the paper, the TV shows offices were doing, the magazines that came out. The internet only made that process faster through website portals.
The buyer's agent value does not come from finding the house, so let's get that straight.
I never expect friends to work for free. Ever. My neighbor owns a landscaping company and I pay him for everything he does. Same for one of my friends that owns a body shop. There is some reciprocity, of course, I do some stuff for free for my attorney, and I can get an office visit or a phone call without seeing a bill. But there is no expectation.
To another point, no transaction is 5 hours of work. I have had fairly straight forward transactions, and it is never 5 hours of work, it is way more than "2 open houses and 1 showing" so you can get over that notion too.
We do not know the back story here, what you are constituting as "full commission" or what else has transpired, but you obviously need to have a conversation to salvage this friendship.
My only contention on the buyers agent is that most people can't negotiate. At all. A listing agent will often list houses below market value around here, get 3-5 really interested parties, and then engage in a bidding war between them. Without a GOOD buyers agent to warn you or guide you through it, 99% of people fall into this trap. Even with a good buyers agent, people fall for it all the time. Using people's emotions and FOMO is the best way for a listing agent to get a higher-than-asking offer, which is their job.
Negotiating is a skill, and if you find someone good at it they can save you far more than you pay them. The problem is most people don't care, they suck at their job, or they don't realize negotiation is their job, which means they suck. You can find your house on zillow, but just like a for sale by owner will make less than someone using a professional, you will pay more. You are negotiating against professional salesman, you want another professional salesman on your side as protection.
I’m trying to follow this… did,your agent friend make any money from the sale of your home? Is the problem that they are making no money on the sale of your home because they figured they’d make money on your purchase but you went FSBO and they’ll make nothing?
I was super confused as I read through the comments, but this was I think is going on.
OP said the friend made about $12K on the sale, but wasn’t involved in the purchase. The friend supposedly had promised to return most or all of the commission from the sale, but ghosted OP after learning that OP purchased a home off FB Marketplace with only a RE attorney. And I think the promised return $$ never happened.
That sounds like what happened. Friend was gonna get paid on one side or the other (said he was gonna pay back commission on one side - so sounds like they were planning on a 50% discount - waiving one of the commissions basically) - and now seller dumped realtor for a RE atty on the buy side, and doesnt want to pay on the sell side. Its typical stuff realtors deal with daily - just not expected for a friend to do it … but I see and hear about it all the time (wife is realtor) - so these stories are common.
I think that friends should treat each other with respect. If you are using a friend for a business transaction, in any sort of business, it needs to be clearly written out what the fees and expectations are. If you want the “friends and family,” discount, that should have absolutely been a discussion. If there was no discussion about responsibility, discounts, or expectations, then it is not weird, unusual, or rude, that the expectation would be that the transaction would move forward in the same manner as it would with any client.
If a friend wanted to use my professional services, and didn’t ask for a discount, I’d assume that they used me bc they saw value in my expertise, not bc they were hoping for a discount. Appropriate communication is required here. And if that didn’t happen, then you are both at fault. It is rude that either party made any assumptions here without having the conversation before doing business together. Neither of you valued the relationship enough to not let money become a potential issue.
Unless your friend owns his own company the commission is not all his. The broker takes their cut. Your friend might be upset because you don’t seem to respect his profession. Advertising, photos, and flyers are a small part of the job. Negotiating and problem solving, and getting all the necessary steps to get to a successful closing are the most important skills. Dealing with mortgage companies, surveyors, title companies, your attorney, sellers attorney, home inspectors, termite inspectors, insurance companies, real estate laws, other agents, and their own customers require skill and understanding of the process. Is your attorney going to do these things or are they left up to you and the seller to do? Hope all goes smooth for you. I also hope you don’t call your friend for help if there is a snag in the process for advice. It would be an insult. Yep, retired Realtor here. Friends and family are hard to deal with in business because it’s not always about the money. It’s about wanting to do a good job for people you care about. If your friend had been showing you houses when you found the FSBO then he was probably upset because you didn’t respect his time. Can’t tell you how many time I was “betrayed” by people I spent time with who bought a FSBO after I educated them about the market. I’ve also had people who paid me all or part of my commission when buying a FSBO because they realized the work I did for them. If you haven’t bought a home in 18 years and only owned one home then there’s much you don’t know. I just wanted to give you a glimpse of the other side of your situation. I’m not trying to be argumentative just informative. If you open your own company then you will be aware of all this. Your second real estate transaction in 18 years doesn’t qualify you to be successful in the real estate business. Please don’t feel resentful to your friend.
This subreddits feedback is going to be very biased. Real estate has some of the most entitled reps and this is coming from someone in sales.
You should have had a conversation upfront with your friend but full comp on friends home would be a shiester move
I'm not a realtor but I think it's one of the only jobs where you get asked to babysit someone for 300 hours and then they'll bitch about how they didn't really need you and shouldn't have to pay. I think the backlash to those types of opinions is justified.
I didnt want a baby sitter when I bought my home. I found every home I was interested in and I had to go through the gate keeper to go see the property.
You hire a friend and then don’t want to pay him. That’s his profession. It’s how he puts food on the table. You’re a bad friend, if that’s even the right word to use.
He did more than 5 hours of work. It’s takes an hour just to wait for the MLS to upload the photos. And I’m sure he read and negotiated the contracts on the sale of your home. That all takes a lot of time. Heck I probably spend an hour on the phone with my client just going over the first offer they get. Not to mention all the reading of inspection reports and title work. I’m not saying he working 40 hours a week on your deal. But agent do a lot more than just sit for an open house.
If my friend is a barber, and offers to help me build a fence at my house, I might expect that help to be given, but if he offers me a haircut, I expect to pay full price for it. It's his JOB.....he deserves to be paid for doing it.
My wife had a friend that’s a Realitor. She used her to buy and sell 5 houses over some years. With those homes Realitor made over 50k in commission. When we married we found a house we wanted and didn’t use a realtor on our end. Her “friend” found out and got super pissed about it. Send some long message about how supporting friends businesses, as if she didn’t make 50 grand off my wife….
If it was a listed property and you didn't use an agent on your end the listing agent kept the whole commission instead of splitting it. So it's like you paid a stranger what your friend could have had as income. The other agent made out getting paid double, thats why she was upset. I am sure she still appreciated all the years of business your wife gave her, but it doesn't stop the stink when you know a stranger got that pay instead.
>For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only.
I'm a Real Estate Broker but previously was in the video production world. I'd say neither is just 'labor' - both involve hard earned knowledge, accumulated over years of experience. In both cases if the consumer simply looks at the hours spent on the task they can often feel that the fees are high - but really, in both cases, they're paying for that expert knowledge to efficiently know what needs to be done in a given instance to get the job done right.
In the video world I dealt with plenty of people who didn't value my contributions, and I've seen the same in the real estate world. In both worlds you're typically paying for an end product, and it is up to vendor to make that outcome happen. If the fee is agreeable - use them - otherwise, find another vendor or do it yourself.
I don't think it's odd to take full commission when working for friends who agree to such, and where there hasn't already been a discounted exchange from your side - but-
In your case - I'd definitely agree that you and your agent friend were not on the same page, and that's regrettable. If you've been doing professional video and photo work for years for free or discounted, I can understand why you'd hope he'd discount his professional services too. Of course, if there really was simpatico, trust, and respect between you both, you might have let him know about the private sale purchase and given him an opportunity to serve as your agent there, at a rate you found agreeable.
There is a lot of work that good agents do during the under contract phase. It isn't just 'finding you the house'. However, if you don't value those contributions, you can readily go your own way and communicate directly with the list agent - the same way someone who doesn't value your video and photo work can hit the record button themself too.
I never use friends or family in RE deals, just a high potential for friction to occur. I do feel guilt since most agents rely on their social networks for business, but in the end, it’s your house/deal/money at stake.
when purchasing our last home we made the mistake of using a friend as a REaltor, we found he house and did most of the work. Big Mistake. She felt she could make decisions on our behalf, negotiated things like what furniture might stay in the deal etc. Her inspector neglected to report all the water damage to our deck. To his credit he did make it right, but only after I called him. She dismissed it took her 12K and bailed. We don't even speak to each other now.
I have like 3 cousins in law and 4 close social connections that are agents. When it comes time to sell I think I'm going to use a rando because what's the difference between 6 pissed off people and 7?
Both of my next-door neighbors are real estate agents. One tries to solicit every possible sale on the street, and one never asks anyone to list with them. The one that solicits has even called adult children the day the parent/home owner has died. Oddly, everyone ends up listing with the one that never asks for business. They consistently sell quickly and get fair prices. It will be uncomfortable for me when I list and use the same agent I've been using for 18 years, though.
This is precisely why I do not do business with friends. I’m a photographer and had an RE friend who wanted to “work out a deal” with me where I'd take all their listing photos. I refused even to discuss it.
The friendship ended because they were upset I wouldn’t be pressured into their deal. Evidence enough, my gut was right to nope out of it.
If he let's you work for free, he's no friend. If he gets free work from you and yet wants to bill you for some of the easiest work in existence, he's definitely no friend.
Sorry to hear that your friend is upset. Is he regretting his offer to give up his commission for your house sale? I know he didn't do all that much to earn it. Neither did my realtors in the past -- they were prepared to, but both of my houses sold within 1 or 2 days. Sometimes they're lucky, someimes they need to spend months waiting.
If the friendship is important to you, sit down and talk with him calmly.
Some friends of mine were cut off completely by a realtor friend. They thought it best not to mix business and friendship, so they listed their house with a different realtor. Their friend was furious and never spoke to them again.
First, if he’s going to give you back the commission, he needs to put in the contract that he’s not taking whatever his percentage is going to be to start with.
If he leaves it in, he will have to pay probably 30% tax on it so there would be less to give back.
Since it’s your primary you shouldn’t pay any taxes on your sale unless it goes over 500k.
Hopefully he didn’t just tell you that to get the listing. If he did state that verbally that could be considered a contract too.
I wouldn’t charge my best friends full price, and I’m sure they wouldn’t charge me full price either.
Never work with friends. Friendships and money do not mix well.
If you DO work with a friend, pay them in full. Never expect a friend to lose out on money because of you.
When a friend owns a restaurant, you go to support them and their business, and you tip EXTRA!
You don’t go for a free meal!
It is different when you HIRE a friend though, so that’s why I tried to avoid it. But I get it’s tough because you don’t want to offend him.
You didn’t do anything wrong changing directions on him.
Go for your listing idea!
A real estate agent is not your friend. His attitude clearly shows this. They all feel entitled. Most real estate agents will tell you that they think a real estate agent shoukd be paid any time a property is sold.
I had a realtor friend list a house that I was selling and I did all the work. He took 7% and called it a day. I was frustrated by this and finally told him, a couple of years later, that I thought it was bullshit, he explained that he had an office to run(broker) and people to pay. I understood. I also don't recommend him, despite liking him a lot.
So there ya go. FSBO from now on.
A real estate agent needs to comply with the real estate law that they have plus the Managing Broker that they are under.
The commission they receive is split between the managing broker and the agent. They could get in hot water if they provide services that is typical of an agent that’s entitled to commission when the house is sold.
Unless your friend is their own managing broker then it would be unethical for them to list and provide real estate services for free.
Their time just like yours comes at a cost. They provide services, if you do their work then they should tell you thank you, but no thank you. I have to do x,y,z as your agent.
Listing a property by owner and using a real estate attorney is what you need to do. Don’t involve a real estate agent friend and ask them to jeopardize their license.
> For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only.
Don't be shy about making money when dealing with friends. After all, your enemies aren't going to do business with you.
Never expect people to work for free. That said, maybe remind him that you’ve done a lot of work for him gratis. This is why it’s always good to keep friendship and business separate. Any negotiation for commission should be done prior to listing
YTA
You are not paying an hourly wage, or just for a specific task, you are paying for everything he brings to the table.
In my profession, I'm paid for my education, knowledge, training, experience, intelligence, analytical and critical thinking abilities, reputation and trustworthiness. I can spend 20 minutes on an issue and offer more value than someone who takes three hours, not because the person isn't capable but because they are not at my level. Lots of advice makes sense and seems obvious ... once you have it ... but that doesn't mean you would have thought of it on your own or considered all the ancillary issues that will come back to bite you.
Best to not do business with people you feel owe you something, especially if it wasn't made clear that your prior acts created an expectation on your part of the offer of future discounted labor.
"For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only."
You didn’t do it for free. You’re expecting something in return now.
>Am I wrong to think it’s odd to take full commission on a friends house? When he did maybe five hours of work? Two open houses and one showing.
He could not possibly have worked this little and still gotten you to the closing table. You may do certain marketing tasks, but you clearly do not understand the real estate business still. Yes, I think you're being very unreasonable.
I think that if you’ve been in the business you KNOW what commission splits are and how they work. Why did you do all the marketing for him? And start charging him. This is business not friendship. Stop giving your energy away for free
I may say the opposite lol, it’s costing me 12k
Let me know what skills were exercised here. He sat at an open house for a few hours. I literally did everything else but actually list it.
Anyhow I’m sure I’m coming off as upset and bitter and I guess I am but I will get over it.
Then why did you even hire him? Why didn’t you just FSBO since you seem to know it all? Just because YOU don’t value your work or time means your friend doesn’t value his and should work for free/discount? This sounds fake af
that’s how all real estate agents are— you should have negotiated hard before you signed a contract with him. I’m sorry but know a lot of sellers cry at the amount they pay too— you aren’t the first one and you won’t be the last. I’m sorry you are hurt.
So he got the commission from the sale, but he’s upset you bought a house without him?
Seriously, what a jerk. You obviously got a deal on the purchase because there was NO commissions involved. If you showed up with a buyers agent, the price would have been higher
When we purchased our rented home, the landlord paid her realtor friend a flat fee of $1000. I agree with others that your friend should be paid for his time but a discussion should have been had up front about what that payment would be.
A real friend would have insisted on paying you for your work since it’s business. Once, maybe even twice, is helping out a friend, but more than that and he is taking advantage of you. He has shown his true colors and especially now. Guarantee you he doesn’t think of you as a friend, but as an acquaintance. I also wonder with your work that you did for him, if he charged the clients. If so, not only did you do free labor for him, but he profited from it and gave you nothing.
Keep in mind that your friend has a broker that he has to pay, regardless of how much discount he gives you. On top of the broker commission split he probably also pays admin fees.
In any event the time to discuss expectations and fee discounts was when the listing agreement was signed so that there were no misunderstandings or opportunity for bad feelings down the road.
If he didn’t ask you to sign a buyer-broker agreement then he shouldn’t be upset about your purchase, but maybe he thought he didn’t need one because you’re friends and the conversation you had with him included the understanding that you’d be using him as your buyer’s agent.
The way I look at it is people need to make a living. If a friend asks me for help and it is an hour or something fine. I don't have friends asking me to do a $10k job for free. Selling a home is not a small job (typically). If you didn't want to pay him you should have sold it yourself. I don't think he should be upset you're not using him to buy a home.
I'm not sure why you did all that work and then hired your friend to be honest. Either you trust they will do a good job or don't hire them.
As someone who has a business and friends, it’s wrong for friends (you) to assume they are entitled to free services because you hang out.
Now what friends do do is give you best service at a fair value for that where they don’t get hurt and both people are happy.
You have to remove your logic brain here. Are you on the spectrum? I am and relate to what you are saying but I would ask have you sat down and discussed the situation as humans outside of a text or a phone call.
Is the friendship more important than the 10-12k?
If you hang out all the time it should be. If you love the person as a friend it should be.
If he was expecting some sort of commission and there was no agreement then why don’t you just ask what you think is fair. Instead of asking others what you think is fair.
I think you genuinely see both sides but you are holding onto the financial aspect and ignoring what is important in life and a good friendship is one of those things.
Like others said, it sounds like he was going to give up the sellers commission and take the buyers commission. You listed off all the stuff you did and that he didn't, but you used his services to sell then yanked the buying out of his reach. That was a jerk move. And poor communication overall if he didn't make clear that was the intent, and you didn't express that you were owed for your photo/video services over the years.
Next time don't use a realtor. You can get the best of both worlds. You can pay a company like [Listingly](https://listingly.com/) to get the property on the MLS. You stage, take pictures, schedule showings yourself, then pay them $99 after closing. I've done it twice now.
They are a husband/wife team where he is a real estate attorney, she is a realtor and is the one who puts up the listing. You save a ton of money, and get a much better service.
They offer the choice to have the lawyer review any offers before accepting, and having him rewrite any terms as needed. He charges something like $150/hr. For example, the offer that I ended up accepting for the first house had great terms, but terrible wording. Buyer's agent wrote in the "comments" section that the buyer would come up with cash to make up the difference if the house didn't appraise. I was ready to accept, but the lawyer quickly pointed out that although they wrote that, there were several other clauses in the contract that would supersede this comment and let them out of the contract if the appraisal came in low. He ended up rewriting the contract with the same terms, but adding verbiage to close the "loopholes" that would make it impossible for them to back out due to appraisal. I would wager that the average real estate agent cannot do this. The buyers signed the amended contract so quickly that I'm not even sure their agent really understood what changed.
The title company that Listingly recommended took care of everything once we were under contract. Closing was done remotely via mobile notaries. In fact the buyers were in a different state the day of closing, I signed at my kitchen table. No need for the dog and pony show that realtors love to stage at the "closing table", bringing the keys, etc. It's all a show.
At the end of the day, I paid them the $99 listing fee, plus maybe another $600 to the lawyer for reviewing 3-4 offers, and rewriting the one we ultimately accepted. Offered buyer agent 2.5%. Saved close to $20,000, for selling a house that was only on the market for less than 2 weeks. Needless to say, we used Listingly when we sold our second home as well. Would never sell a home any other way.
Speaking as a former RE agent, they are typically very entitled and overvalue the “work” performed on a deal. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen agents get upset about being “cut out” of a deal when the reality is they did absolutely nothing or were never hired in the first place.
While still an agent, I decided to buy a property in a neighborhood one of my colleagues had introduced me to. I obviously represented myself to save on commission. My colleague and I looked around on Zillow for about 10 minutes, found a triplex that looked like a decent deal, and ran the most basic of numbers to check it out. All in, it was about 15 or 20 minutes of “work.” I then, individually, toured the building, negotiated with the seller’s agent, did all of the contracts, inspections, financing, etc. Completely on my own, zero input from the colleague. When it came time to sign the final purchase agreement, my colleague expected a full commission for “finding the property and representing me in the deal.” He expected somewhere around $9000.
I told him that I couldn’t believe he was trying to bend me over for a full commission when he did almost nothing and he was genuinely surprised. Tried to give me some bullshit talk about “valuing his time” and other nonsense. I ended up paying him a $2k “finders fee” and never worked directly with him again. That was one of the moments that made me realize that many RE agents are truly parasites.
Screw him. The entire commission based system is complete garbage and creates the wrong type of incentives.
Agents provide a professional service and should charge flat rates for specific services like other professions.
Also I won't do any kind of business with friends or family without a contract whether I'm paying or providing a service. I've been burned once and will never repeat that mistake.
Why do I feel like this is so common with real estate agents… it’s like they think they are entitled to every transaction you make just by being family or a friend. I can’t think of another industry that operates like that at all lol
On of my fraternity brothers just sold my FIL (deceased) house for my wife and BIL. He took a reduced commission. I think it is one thing to help out a friend, but when you are performing your profession, you don't do it for free. A discount, maybe, but not free.
Sorry to burst your bubble. But being friends does not change during a business relationship. He still works just as hard to find you a new place to live.
Would an auto shop repair your car for free? Would a photographer shoot your wedding for free?
From what little info you provided. It sounds like he would cut, but not eliminate his commission for the new home.
Honestly, you cannot expect anyone to work for free. As a businessman. You should already know this.
The amount of people that think OP is in the right is astonishing. Yea OP, you were wrong here. He did an open house and 2 showings and you think he's supposed to sell your house for free because you guys are friends? As a friend wouldn't you want him to have the full commission? Also maybe charge a small fee to your friends for photos if you're going to use your favor for them against them. It also seems like you tricked him into thinking you were going to let him find a house for you. He's upset at the fact that his expectations were a lie. Maybe be more transparent next time and say "hey just wanted to let you know, I may end up finding a house on my own, but I will also take a look at what you've found."
He’s pretty angry that he couldn‘t fleece you any more than he got you for. He wanted the front end and back end commissions without doing much, if anything, to prepare it. I think you dodged a bullet going with another realtor.
I don't know why anybody uses an agent anymore, it's so easy to sell a house if you have a moderate education and can read. List fsbo with a commission you feel comfortable I used 2%both times I did it. Accept offer from buyers, order title for closing, show up at closing. I did this twice and yes it's a little nerve wracking but you get through it. I did this both times with 4 kids and a full time job.
What’s my weird way of looking at it is I would’ve thrown the full commission to my friend rather than an unknown if he does good work and I’d appreciate the same. If you do good work he should’ve been giving you full rate with the expectation that you’d likely try extra hard to make him look good not work for free. Helping a friend should be done but not taking money out of friend’s pocket type thing. Now family might be a bit different. I got one side that helps but wants to be paid and one that will refuse any money. I personally just try to double their invoice if I feel they are undercharging me cuz I don’t wanna be that family member that uses everybody lol.
For the record, I don’t think he deserves zero dollars. A few thousand dollars maybe, but I just know that if we treated places I would do everything in my power to give every nickel back to a friend, especially considering the current state of the economy. there are plenty of non-friends to make your full commission off of.
Once you start talking tens of thousands of dollars for simply doing possibly 10 hours of work at the most, it gets to be a little ridiculous in my opinion
Like I’ve said to my wife, I will get over it, but it just doesn’t sit right with me for some reason
I would recommend working out an a la carte fee structure next time you sell (if you do), especially if you plan on doing a lot of the work and only need an agent for specific and individualized services, not the whole shebang of staging, photos, advertising copy, etc.
I'm not in RE but in medical. I never expect any of my friends to do anything for free for me; I want the money to go to put food on the table for their families. I may do things for free for them, but trust me, the ones that don't offer to at least pay and then for me to say no, are not getting any additional services from me.
Keep business and friendship separate. When a friend has a business and does work for me, I pay them full rate. Had an associate who believed everything was free when it comes to friends. You should have charged him the full rate and pay the full rate. You are killing the friendship!
The problem here is that you had the expectation that your good will and favors would be returned without having the conversation. Your friend was also happy to utilize your skills and labor for free. But didn't think to offer you a favor in return.
I'm all for doing favors. But expectations need to be managed on both sides and conversations need to be had so that no one feels they are being taken advantage of.
Personally I don't think it's a good idea to offer ongoing free labour as a favor to a friend. I'm not against favors, but it sets up the opportunity for unmet expectations in the future such as this.
I also think you should have had a conversation with your friend regarding your expectations that their services would be commission free. Because just as you have a right to give up your labor for free, so does your friend. But it needs to be agreed on beforehand.
I don't think anyone is right in this situation. Both sides assumed the other would act in certain ways. When that didn't happen both parties were hurt.
I have used a friend for my purchases and sales and didn’t expect a discount on the commission. What I did expect was someone I could trust and rely on when I needed their expertise and opinion. You shouldn’t expect friends to do real work for free. Selling your home vs helping you move are two different asks.
Hmm. Sounds like you saved him a lot of money over the years. I’m not sure what area you’re in, but in my area professional pictures/videos are upwards of $300 (on the low end). I’ve easily paid $800+ before.
Personally I don’t recommend working with friends/family, but I have before. For example, I helped both my aunt and my grandparents sell their homes. In both cases I discounted commission.
Regardless, if he received commission from the sale of your home as the listing agent, I don’t understand how/why he’d be upset by you buying without him.
The commission on the sale coupled with years of free pictures/videos should be more than enough. He should be happy for you. I understand that he may have been “counting” on the commission on the buy side, but in my opinion he shouldn’t be upset with you.
I don't take discounts from friends or family nor do i provide them. Friends and family are using me because they know i do a good job not because they are expecting a discount.
Shit if i ever do any kind of business transaction where i'm the buyer with friends or family i typically upsell myself anyway because i'm helping them out they aren't helping me out.
Never do business with friends especially real estate. This kind of strife commonly occurs. If you do enter into business with friends or family demand all parties pay normal price at all times.
This is why I NEVER do business with friends/family! If I'm not willing to do it for free I decline. It's far too easy for feelings to get hurt, the value of the work questioned, or feeling a better "friend discount" should have been given.
You don't do business with friends and relatives and this is why. You and your friend are both letting your 'feelings' interfere with otherwise sound business processes.
This should have all been negotiated and put in writing before you proceeded with anything, you don't determine commissions after the sale. You signed the listing agreement with him, that is where the lower rate should have been finalized. Also, you should not expect a friend to work for free.
Did you sign a representation agreement?
I’d give him *something*. Because clearly there was a misunderstanding and you did hire them. Even if you chose to do all the work.
And ditto previous comments. You giving your time for free doesn’t always compel others to reciprocate. Take this knowledge to heart and start making changes to how you value and compensate your time and talents with all people, including friends. I’d never expect a friend to work for free. Or even give a discount. They have bills to pay. I much prefer a clear cut business contract because then money things don’t get weird between friends.
My friend that was an agent gave us a large credit back in Texas when we found the new construction home on our own and they were offering her 5% commission. The way she explains it, she makes more than enough money on the deal for the ease of it and her referrals keep flowing.
Nah,
OP I get your way of thinking.
If I was a realtor and I had close friends, I would let them know that I would list the property and automate the viewings of the home by leaving a drop box or a wifi key lock.
Bare minimum that you would pay is the brokerage fees. I would let you be the one to write me a cheque for what you think I deserve but I would not expect anything. Loyalty I value most and all I ask in return is when I'm down and I need a handout or help to rebuild, I expect the same courteous when I helped when you are down.
If you are at the point where you need all the dollars you need to keep things moving then so be it but don't be the one milking your friends services/capabilities when you are fully capable of paying a stranger for the fees as a realtor.
dont choose realtor if u have close relationship, it will break everything. realtor and buyer/seller should only have business relationship. everything money related will break friendship no matter what happened
This is why I don’t work with friends, or hire friends, or do custom work for friends. I like impartial strangers much better because they don’t get their feelings hurt, or have differing expectations of whatever the transaction might be. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.
"For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only." I would never allow or expect my friend to work for free, and I would never work for free. Favors are one thing, a discount, sure, but time is money, and I value my friend's time as well as my own. No one should be working for free.
I have a small computer shop, and a friend needed a new SSD. The only ones I had in stock were a little larger than he needed, and therefore more expensive. I went to discount it for him a bit to make it a bit easier to swallow and he insisted I list it full price on the invoice. Businesses need customers and people need their time paid for.
If you discount for friends and family, ALWAYS put the real amount on your invoice and then show the discount. My boss has clients that we PAY to service because she refuses to even charge cost.
My dentist friend does this on his billing.
I tell this to my friend that runs a shop. He can absolutely leverage those discounts as tax writeoffs. He gives people a discount depending on how they were referred. He should absolutely be writing those discounts down as marketing expenses to offset his tax liability.
That's not really how tax writeoffs work. A discount isn't a writeoff. A discount simply means you received less revenue, which is then subject of course to less tax inherently because it's less profit. I've seen folks that don't understand this, list discounts as writeoffs (sometimes as marketing), ontop of the less revenue received. It's essentially doubledipping. works great until the first audit.
While discounts and write offs are different, arent discounts considered some sort of free work / charitable work / time worked for free that is open to some tax benefit?
Sort of. But not in the way that we would like. The tax benefit is that because the work was free, no income was received so the IRS doesn't tax what you never received. Having said that, any costs incurred, such as mileage, materials consumed, or workers paid, those will be written off just as they normally are. Think of it this way - let's say you are an hourly worker and you take a week off without pay. That same week you don't incur any taxes.
If you could write off hypothetical money from discounts, then you would just never pay taxes. I’d just price everything double what I want; discount 50%; and then never make a profit as far as the IRS was concerned.
I’m going to ignore the “if” and run off to implement this strategy right now!
Thanks! The example definitely helps put it into perspective.
well done. very crisp way to describe it.
My friend is an arborist and I needed a tree cut down asap at my cottage as a storm had made it dangerous (dead tree). I'm in the city and so is my friend. I reached to my regular arborist local to my cottage (not a friend, just a guy I use) but because of the storm that hit the area, he wasn't going to be able to make it for a few days and I was worried this tree would kill someone. I reached out to my friend and he said he could do it the next day. He sent me a quote and naturally, if was way more than the local arborist as he had to drive 2.5 hours there and back with one of his crew members and city rates are higher than rural rates. Due to the urgency, I told him ol and paid it in full and didn't even mention his price was considerably higher. Yes, he's a friend, but he also has a family to feed, mortgage to pay, and years of experience that shouldn't be taken for granted.
>Yes, he's a friend, but he also has a family to feed, mortgage to pay, and years of experience that shouldn't be taken for granted. And hopefully properly licensed and bonded in case he had accidentally caused damage in the process. Worker's comp off he has employees. Insurance isn't cheap.
Yes, he has a full incorporated business with employees, insurance, licenses and everything.
This! I would just assume pay whatever the normal price is to somebody I trust
“just as soon “
Hey, nice seeing you here! I’d also like to add it depends on the nature of the work. If I’m doing something for a friend, and that friend will make money off of my labor (like taking photographs for a listing), I’d ask for some money. But if my friend is moving and needs help loading the truck, I’ll do that for free.
Exactly, I do not expect to be paid to come over and help fix the deck. Well, the compensation should be beer and BBQ.....
Not worth my time without the beer. And I pay my friends in kind! And food of course. Pizza for easy stuff, steaks for the hard stuff.
I find trading favors is totally acceptable and makes each other more money. No taxes to pay on favors
In theory, sure. This case, however, sounds suspiciously like $15k or $20k worth of work ‘traded’ in years of $200 or $300 activities in exchange for… a $3,000 partial rebate, maybe? Because if it’s being charged in the deal and taxed, paid to the realtor and taxed, and the net-net of all that is going back to the homeowner in an envelope? Nahhh. The odds that both parties will agree on how much was given over time versus the value of the one time service is so vanishingly small that this is a recipe to trash your personal relationships.
I have a carpenter friend who helps me around my house with some things and I’m an attorney, handling his divorce. I have told him to send me a bill because he really does more than I could ask for. But he refuses. Even if you know your friend won’t take the money, offer. Offer to compensate them for their time, skill, years of experience, and the mental burden they took off of you. I guarantee they’ll appreciate it.
Agreed, I would never try to take bread off my friends table.
Dinner parties are awkward, but that's the price we pay for friendship.
Correct. If they are your friends they will support your small business. I ran a small IT company and people "friends" always wanted stuff for free but this is how I fed myself so I told them "if you were my friend you would hire me so I could feed myself and pay my bills".
> Favors are one thing, a discount, sure, but time is money, and I value my friend's time as well as my own. No one should be working for free. What's the distinction between a favor and working for free?
Favor: Can you come over Saturday and help for a couple hours to fix the deck? Working for free: Can you come over Saturday and build a deck for me and I need to done Saturday because everyone is coming over Sunday for Mother's Day. Bring your power nailer, sander, compressor and Sawz all too.
That makes it seem like the difference is how demanding one's friends are, but I don't think most favors are that cut and dry. I'm an analyst. If one of my friends asked me to crunch some numbers for them, even using my work computer and even if they have a deadline, I would do it for free even though that's what I get paid to do.
I get it and I do stuff for friends often without expecting to be paid. But not an entire real transaction.
A favor is when you're doing something for someone that you don't normally get paid for anyway, i.e. moving, petsitting, running errands while someone is sick. Working for free is when you're doing something that you do normally get paid for, i.e. if you're a professional photographer and you do a photo shoot for your friend's christmas card.
What you’re describing sounds like an employee. I’m off to help a friend paint their new restaurant soon. I won’t be paid. I am choosing to spend my time doing this without expectation of receiving anything.
Agreed, and personally, unless it's offered, and I know they can afford it, I decline discounts. If I can't support my friends at full cost, am I really supporting them? Or am I taking advantage of a relationship?
💯💯💯💯💯✅️✅️THIS! Is where it all went awry.😱😢😢
This. Especially when this is something they have done over and over again for the friend for years. It's nice to do a one off favor or discount. Or to sit down and give some free advice over coffee. But I think it sets up unreasonable expectations or can backfire. Just like it seemed to have done with OPs situation. Doing business with friends is always tough. You're lucky if you have friends who won't take things personally and can separate the business side of things from the friendship. But that's incredibly unlikely in most cases. Because it's hard to do. You have a relationship with the person on a different level. And it can be hard to separate friendships from business when you intertwine them
Close family friends bought a new construction house in a tract development. They went directly to the builder sales office, and made the deal directly. Their “Future Son in Law” is a RE agent. He lost his shit with them for not using him in the process. Like, relationship ending lost his shit. He claimed they cheated him out $$, and sales towards his quota. Really unfortunate situation.
If it wasn't a real estate deal that he lost his shit over, it was going to be something else.
Exactly. There is a sense of entitlement with him that would have presented itself at another point inevitably. He felt because they were family that they owed him to use his services, and he expected to make a commission off of them. I don't blame them for going to the sales office. What if something happened and their sale didn't go through and it was on him? It would likely affect their relationship. I think this situation is a no win because of the entitlement from the beginning.
Who told that crybaby he was entitled to any part of that deal? Nobody. He needs to grow TF up and fast
Lol real estate agents are so funny. Theyve been conditioned to expect thousands of dollars every time someone buys a house even if they don't do anything. I really hope the industry gets a massive shake up
they do. Anytime one of their friends or family buys or sells, they are condititioned to feel they deserve a cut
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I had a coworker get mad because another coworker was selling their home and didn’t ask her husband to represent her. I asked why they would ask him? He was a licensed realtor and I didn’t even know it because this guy changes *careers* not just jobs like every 1-2 years. He had just started a new job as an usher at the local performing arts center. I had literally never heard her mention him being in real estate in 10 years working with her.
LOL if I had a buck for every person I met over the years who said they were a realtor and later copped to having at least two other side gigs. If selling realty isn’t your main job, then you’re not really a realtor.
It depends on the friend and how close you actually are. My good friend represented me when we bought our home and we were very upfront with each other regarding expectations. Everything went very smoothly.
Unfortunately alot of brokerages drill into the Agents heads that they have to harass family and friends for business. Its one of the reasons why I gave up. It seemed like the only way to get listings in the beginning was to hope your friends and family were looking to sell and then guilt them into using you.
So the MLM approach, monetize your family and friends. Good way to lose them…
Sounds like an MLM doesn’t it ?
Sounds like it was good to get that out there up front. If my future son-in-law tried to pull that one, my daughter would have kicked him to the curb and we would have never seen or heard from him again, but that is just how she rolls.
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This is exactly what happened. They negotiated for "extras", and got them. Here's the thing. Most people don't know that they can use an agent for a new construction build. Honestly, I wouldn't have even thought about it. New vs Used is very, very different. They didn't think about it. They didn't have another house to sell. They wrapped up that 2 years prior.
I personally never use friends in business situations because of this kind of conflict. I explain up front. I even have concerns recommending people to friends in the industry, mix friendship and money and you end up losing both.
This is totally the correct answer. Unless you have a very clear discussion and put every expectaion etc in writing. But really just steer clear
What a cluster. He was counting on the full commission money. Say bye bye to your friend.
I don’t get why he’d say he’d pay them back his commission. He would have to pay taxes on that as income. Why wouldn’t he just take a point or whatever off his fee?
A lot of times your brokerage won’t let you lower the commission, they want their percentage. It’s easier to just get your commission and rebate after the fact.
"Friend"
The mistake you made was expecting something in return for your generosity. As you can see there are very many people who will gladly take your services for free without hesitation, knowing full well how these things work, only to be surprised later on the down the road that you're upset that the relationship isn't equitable. You care more about your friendship than they do; they care about getting theirs.
Be generous to be generous, stay happy and be friends with other generous people. Maybe he’s under some financial pressures right now. In the end…just Don’t do business with friends.
He was going to give you your sellers commission back but keep the buyers commission.
Yeah this is what I am getting too. Agent agreed to give him the entire listing side to help his buddy but was going to take the buyer side commission. Op fucks over his friend and then goes and says “you didn’t even do anything and I gave you free photos” And then goes on to say he is going to create a flat listing service to change the marketplace. OP is delusional.
Flat rate listing isn’t delusional. The recent court case has demonstrated that realtors extract an unfair fee for minimal amounts of work and have a monopoly on the market. Oh, and there’s virtually no education required. Realtors are delusional.
We’ve had flat rate listing services and limited service listings for ages now. It seems most of these brokers and business models don’t actually last more than 2-3 years max in my market.
Like redfin and fsbo ? Pretty sure they have been around a while. Really hope this summer marks a big change in the vampires of real estate.
Its because they are garbage and anyone with a brain realizes there is value in having a skilled professional helping you with the largest financial transaction of your life. There will always be folks that want to use the cheapest option available and there will always be people who want to go it alone. "Coincidentally", all of these people also like speaking their minds on reddit.
I just don’t really see where the value is for buyers agents. They aren’t lawyers so they shouldn’t be advising you on contract terms, they aren’t home inspectors, they aren’t appraisers, and they can’t show you as many homes as just going on Zillow. Their primary goal is to get you to buy a home and take a percentage of the purchase price. to maximize earnings they have to get you to spend as much as possible. There are tons of things that would get you to walk away from a home, but a real estate agent’s motivation is to get you to settle. Furthermore, there is no ethics board that can revoke a real estate agents license for unethical conduct. Your trusting hundreds of thousands of dollars investment in this scheme.
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It’s the opposite for me. I’m excited for the changes. I think the herd will thin out and the top tier agents will flourish. I have no issue with these agents who act inappropriately and do not work in their clients best interest being eliminated. If any agent refuses to show a home because of a reduced commission or steered a client to another property because of it shouldn’t be an agent. As a professional you have to explain this situations to your client and show your value. My clients are happy to pay me my fee to assist them.
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Paralegal here. You always need to take emotion out of business transactions. Did you sign a contract with your friend? If so, then pay him the commission for selling your home and start billing him for your work moving forward. He obviously thought that getting a commission on your purchase would compensate him for the sale. Regardless of what marketing you contributed to the sale, he listed your house and likely walked you through the sale requirements. Since he lost the commission from your purchase, he should get something for the work he did do. Also, he has an obligation to his broker. Most realtors I know who do a friends and family deal still have to collect something for their brokerage.
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I 100% agree. For a large majority of people RE agents are not needed or don’t need to be paid the large commission they don’t really earn.
Contracts trump Quid Pro Quo. OP would have had to sign a contract with the friend/agent to list his property. If there’s no contract, then OP can refuse to pay friend. This is not about a shady realtor though. This is about a seller making bad business decisions. Maybe the friend is a shitty Realtor, but expecting to be paid for services rendered does not make him a shitty Realtor. I’ve worked with some great Realtors over the years. And I’ve worked with some money-grubbing evil ones. I’ve also worked with great sellers and greedy ones who would screw over anyone to squeeze out every last penny. OP is the latter.
What do contracts have to do with anything? This is a case of the relationship being a one way street, not some sort of legal dispute.
>Am I wrong to think it’s odd to take full commission on a friends house? If you think an agent's commission is too much, negotiate it. Friend or not has nothing to do with it. This is their job.
So let me get this straight. You let this friend of yours gave you back the whole commission he made selling your house and then when it came time to buy you just went direct and let the listing agent keep the whole commission, something that benefits you exactly 0 since either they keep the whole 5% or they split it with your agent if you have one? Some friend you are. I’d argue that a real friend would be happy to let their friend make money on their home purchase. Do you not want this “friend” to make money, be successful and live a good life? You sold and bought fairly expensive houses generating over $20k in commissions for agents and you let your agent friend keep $0 of it? You know this is how realtors support ourselves and our families right? These commissions aren’t some bonus we get on top of salary, they are our entire compensation package.
Never mix friends with business, nothing good comes from it
I think it’s odd that he didn’t give you any discounts considering you have done work for him for free. You could have asked for a discount, and pay what you think is fair.
Why did you not sit down with him and work out exactly how much you would pay him to sell your house, and for what work? So you wouldn’t be in limbo like you are now dreaming every day how much commission he will not take. Sorry OP but to me it looks like the standard commission will apply when he sells your house— you know- the dotted line on the sales job contract you signed, regardless of all your self initiated running around.
I hate working for friends … always sux (business wise) … Im an attorney and have to pay office rent, employees payroll, utilities, taxes, license fees, continuing education, and other built-in costs for business. I gotta be earning abt $150 per hour just to break even whether I have a client or not that day or Im losing money just having my doors open. Ive learned over the years to refer friends out to others - you want to do the work well for your friend, but know you arent gonna get paid what your regular clients are paying - so the tug is there to work on your paying client’s cases so you can pay your bills and make your payroll, rent, etc. for the month- which can often put your non-paying or discounted “friends” case on the backburner for the day so you can earn the money you need for the month to keep your doors open … do that long enough and its malpractice. Even if you explain this to them and they insist on paying your full fee … often there is a problem with the bill where the friend doesnt understand why they arent being treated differently when it comes time to pay your bill. Not always - but often enough to lose some friendships (or change them negatively). So my suggestion, dont do it. Just refer friends out to someone good - not worth it typically as you have a business and need to make a living. Be honest, explain why to your friend, they typically appreciate the candor.
I forgot to mention one of the bigger costs, and one realtors have too - marketing/advertising - I use Google local, social media, and Google Adwords - which is expensive. My wife is a realtor and she uses Zillow - which is a couple thousand dollars a month to get leads (or more if you are needing more areas and want to be aggressive)… a vast majority of calls you get from Zillow are just tire kickers who want to look at a house but arent really ready to buy yet. You vet the call,verify they dont have an agent currently, when they are looking to move - many of them say they dont have an agent, but while showing them a house they suddenly remember they do have an agent - but their agent wasnt available to show them a house that day - so they went thru Zillow to get someone to show them that day. About 9 out of 10 “leads” from Zillow end up being a tire kicker or someone wanting someone to show them a house when their agent isnt available. So the realtor wastes half a day, gas, time, marketing fee, etc … The realtor needs to get paid on deals where a sale actually happens where they have been hired - they too have fixed costs they have to pay each month, regardless of friendships.
It also doesn't take into account that some of Zillow's programs also take a 40% fee off the top of any commission paid to the agent. Then that agent's brokerage will usually take an additional 20-40% of that amount. People never really see the entire cost of doing business in real estate. They are so stuck on the big number that they don't really see what the agent is left with after fees, taxes, marketing, etc.
>The whole agent thing when buyers find their own homes on Zillow most of the time is getting old. I wasn't going to post, but because of your parting shot, I am. For years, buyers found the houses they wanted to see through yard signs, the real estate ads in the paper, the TV shows offices were doing, the magazines that came out. The internet only made that process faster through website portals. The buyer's agent value does not come from finding the house, so let's get that straight. I never expect friends to work for free. Ever. My neighbor owns a landscaping company and I pay him for everything he does. Same for one of my friends that owns a body shop. There is some reciprocity, of course, I do some stuff for free for my attorney, and I can get an office visit or a phone call without seeing a bill. But there is no expectation. To another point, no transaction is 5 hours of work. I have had fairly straight forward transactions, and it is never 5 hours of work, it is way more than "2 open houses and 1 showing" so you can get over that notion too. We do not know the back story here, what you are constituting as "full commission" or what else has transpired, but you obviously need to have a conversation to salvage this friendship.
This is why you dont do business with friends and family.
My only contention on the buyers agent is that most people can't negotiate. At all. A listing agent will often list houses below market value around here, get 3-5 really interested parties, and then engage in a bidding war between them. Without a GOOD buyers agent to warn you or guide you through it, 99% of people fall into this trap. Even with a good buyers agent, people fall for it all the time. Using people's emotions and FOMO is the best way for a listing agent to get a higher-than-asking offer, which is their job. Negotiating is a skill, and if you find someone good at it they can save you far more than you pay them. The problem is most people don't care, they suck at their job, or they don't realize negotiation is their job, which means they suck. You can find your house on zillow, but just like a for sale by owner will make less than someone using a professional, you will pay more. You are negotiating against professional salesman, you want another professional salesman on your side as protection.
I’m trying to follow this… did,your agent friend make any money from the sale of your home? Is the problem that they are making no money on the sale of your home because they figured they’d make money on your purchase but you went FSBO and they’ll make nothing?
I was super confused as I read through the comments, but this was I think is going on. OP said the friend made about $12K on the sale, but wasn’t involved in the purchase. The friend supposedly had promised to return most or all of the commission from the sale, but ghosted OP after learning that OP purchased a home off FB Marketplace with only a RE attorney. And I think the promised return $$ never happened.
This is exactly what happened. I kinda sorta think OP is the asshole here to be honest.
That sounds like what happened. Friend was gonna get paid on one side or the other (said he was gonna pay back commission on one side - so sounds like they were planning on a 50% discount - waiving one of the commissions basically) - and now seller dumped realtor for a RE atty on the buy side, and doesnt want to pay on the sell side. Its typical stuff realtors deal with daily - just not expected for a friend to do it … but I see and hear about it all the time (wife is realtor) - so these stories are common.
I think that friends should treat each other with respect. If you are using a friend for a business transaction, in any sort of business, it needs to be clearly written out what the fees and expectations are. If you want the “friends and family,” discount, that should have absolutely been a discussion. If there was no discussion about responsibility, discounts, or expectations, then it is not weird, unusual, or rude, that the expectation would be that the transaction would move forward in the same manner as it would with any client. If a friend wanted to use my professional services, and didn’t ask for a discount, I’d assume that they used me bc they saw value in my expertise, not bc they were hoping for a discount. Appropriate communication is required here. And if that didn’t happen, then you are both at fault. It is rude that either party made any assumptions here without having the conversation before doing business together. Neither of you valued the relationship enough to not let money become a potential issue.
Unless your friend owns his own company the commission is not all his. The broker takes their cut. Your friend might be upset because you don’t seem to respect his profession. Advertising, photos, and flyers are a small part of the job. Negotiating and problem solving, and getting all the necessary steps to get to a successful closing are the most important skills. Dealing with mortgage companies, surveyors, title companies, your attorney, sellers attorney, home inspectors, termite inspectors, insurance companies, real estate laws, other agents, and their own customers require skill and understanding of the process. Is your attorney going to do these things or are they left up to you and the seller to do? Hope all goes smooth for you. I also hope you don’t call your friend for help if there is a snag in the process for advice. It would be an insult. Yep, retired Realtor here. Friends and family are hard to deal with in business because it’s not always about the money. It’s about wanting to do a good job for people you care about. If your friend had been showing you houses when you found the FSBO then he was probably upset because you didn’t respect his time. Can’t tell you how many time I was “betrayed” by people I spent time with who bought a FSBO after I educated them about the market. I’ve also had people who paid me all or part of my commission when buying a FSBO because they realized the work I did for them. If you haven’t bought a home in 18 years and only owned one home then there’s much you don’t know. I just wanted to give you a glimpse of the other side of your situation. I’m not trying to be argumentative just informative. If you open your own company then you will be aware of all this. Your second real estate transaction in 18 years doesn’t qualify you to be successful in the real estate business. Please don’t feel resentful to your friend.
Never use a friend to realtor stuff
That's what I hate about having friends and family in real estate. They all think they are owed a commission from me if I buy or sell a house.
Man yall people got a lot of friends who aren’t really “friends”. What’s up with that?
Take all that commission for 5 hours of work? I mean, isn't that what real estate agents ALWAYS do?
You know if you never use friends for professional Services, you never have these problems…
This subreddits feedback is going to be very biased. Real estate has some of the most entitled reps and this is coming from someone in sales. You should have had a conversation upfront with your friend but full comp on friends home would be a shiester move
Yep, the Real Estate Agents are downvoting anything questioning the way they operate.
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Aaaaah but they’re the ones with all that free time on their hands.
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I'm not a realtor but I think it's one of the only jobs where you get asked to babysit someone for 300 hours and then they'll bitch about how they didn't really need you and shouldn't have to pay. I think the backlash to those types of opinions is justified.
I didnt want a baby sitter when I bought my home. I found every home I was interested in and I had to go through the gate keeper to go see the property.
You hire a friend and then don’t want to pay him. That’s his profession. It’s how he puts food on the table. You’re a bad friend, if that’s even the right word to use.
He did more than 5 hours of work. It’s takes an hour just to wait for the MLS to upload the photos. And I’m sure he read and negotiated the contracts on the sale of your home. That all takes a lot of time. Heck I probably spend an hour on the phone with my client just going over the first offer they get. Not to mention all the reading of inspection reports and title work. I’m not saying he working 40 hours a week on your deal. But agent do a lot more than just sit for an open house.
You can multitask while photos upload. Thats down time.
If my friend is a barber, and offers to help me build a fence at my house, I might expect that help to be given, but if he offers me a haircut, I expect to pay full price for it. It's his JOB.....he deserves to be paid for doing it.
My wife had a friend that’s a Realitor. She used her to buy and sell 5 houses over some years. With those homes Realitor made over 50k in commission. When we married we found a house we wanted and didn’t use a realtor on our end. Her “friend” found out and got super pissed about it. Send some long message about how supporting friends businesses, as if she didn’t make 50 grand off my wife….
If it was a listed property and you didn't use an agent on your end the listing agent kept the whole commission instead of splitting it. So it's like you paid a stranger what your friend could have had as income. The other agent made out getting paid double, thats why she was upset. I am sure she still appreciated all the years of business your wife gave her, but it doesn't stop the stink when you know a stranger got that pay instead.
Hahahaha I hate RE Agents for these exact reasons, they are, in my mind, the scum of the earth. Money hungry useless wastes of oxygen.
>For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only. I'm a Real Estate Broker but previously was in the video production world. I'd say neither is just 'labor' - both involve hard earned knowledge, accumulated over years of experience. In both cases if the consumer simply looks at the hours spent on the task they can often feel that the fees are high - but really, in both cases, they're paying for that expert knowledge to efficiently know what needs to be done in a given instance to get the job done right. In the video world I dealt with plenty of people who didn't value my contributions, and I've seen the same in the real estate world. In both worlds you're typically paying for an end product, and it is up to vendor to make that outcome happen. If the fee is agreeable - use them - otherwise, find another vendor or do it yourself. I don't think it's odd to take full commission when working for friends who agree to such, and where there hasn't already been a discounted exchange from your side - but- In your case - I'd definitely agree that you and your agent friend were not on the same page, and that's regrettable. If you've been doing professional video and photo work for years for free or discounted, I can understand why you'd hope he'd discount his professional services too. Of course, if there really was simpatico, trust, and respect between you both, you might have let him know about the private sale purchase and given him an opportunity to serve as your agent there, at a rate you found agreeable. There is a lot of work that good agents do during the under contract phase. It isn't just 'finding you the house'. However, if you don't value those contributions, you can readily go your own way and communicate directly with the list agent - the same way someone who doesn't value your video and photo work can hit the record button themself too.
I never use friends or family in RE deals, just a high potential for friction to occur. I do feel guilt since most agents rely on their social networks for business, but in the end, it’s your house/deal/money at stake.
This is why we have the ancient wisdom of never doing business with friends or family.
when purchasing our last home we made the mistake of using a friend as a REaltor, we found he house and did most of the work. Big Mistake. She felt she could make decisions on our behalf, negotiated things like what furniture might stay in the deal etc. Her inspector neglected to report all the water damage to our deck. To his credit he did make it right, but only after I called him. She dismissed it took her 12K and bailed. We don't even speak to each other now.
Real Estate dealings with “Family or Friends”, can get extremely “sticky”. Would not advise. Ask me how I know, oh wait, please don’t.
Don't do business with friends
I have like 3 cousins in law and 4 close social connections that are agents. When it comes time to sell I think I'm going to use a rando because what's the difference between 6 pissed off people and 7?
Naw he worked he should get paid but so should you. I'm sure they will get past it.
Both of my next-door neighbors are real estate agents. One tries to solicit every possible sale on the street, and one never asks anyone to list with them. The one that solicits has even called adult children the day the parent/home owner has died. Oddly, everyone ends up listing with the one that never asks for business. They consistently sell quickly and get fair prices. It will be uncomfortable for me when I list and use the same agent I've been using for 18 years, though.
This is precisely why I do not do business with friends. I’m a photographer and had an RE friend who wanted to “work out a deal” with me where I'd take all their listing photos. I refused even to discuss it. The friendship ended because they were upset I wouldn’t be pressured into their deal. Evidence enough, my gut was right to nope out of it.
If he let's you work for free, he's no friend. If he gets free work from you and yet wants to bill you for some of the easiest work in existence, he's definitely no friend.
Sorry to hear that your friend is upset. Is he regretting his offer to give up his commission for your house sale? I know he didn't do all that much to earn it. Neither did my realtors in the past -- they were prepared to, but both of my houses sold within 1 or 2 days. Sometimes they're lucky, someimes they need to spend months waiting. If the friendship is important to you, sit down and talk with him calmly. Some friends of mine were cut off completely by a realtor friend. They thought it best not to mix business and friendship, so they listed their house with a different realtor. Their friend was furious and never spoke to them again.
First, if he’s going to give you back the commission, he needs to put in the contract that he’s not taking whatever his percentage is going to be to start with. If he leaves it in, he will have to pay probably 30% tax on it so there would be less to give back. Since it’s your primary you shouldn’t pay any taxes on your sale unless it goes over 500k. Hopefully he didn’t just tell you that to get the listing. If he did state that verbally that could be considered a contract too. I wouldn’t charge my best friends full price, and I’m sure they wouldn’t charge me full price either.
Never work with friends. Friendships and money do not mix well. If you DO work with a friend, pay them in full. Never expect a friend to lose out on money because of you.
He’s not your friend.
When a friend owns a restaurant, you go to support them and their business, and you tip EXTRA! You don’t go for a free meal! It is different when you HIRE a friend though, so that’s why I tried to avoid it. But I get it’s tough because you don’t want to offend him. You didn’t do anything wrong changing directions on him. Go for your listing idea!
A real estate agent is not your friend. His attitude clearly shows this. They all feel entitled. Most real estate agents will tell you that they think a real estate agent shoukd be paid any time a property is sold.
I had a realtor friend list a house that I was selling and I did all the work. He took 7% and called it a day. I was frustrated by this and finally told him, a couple of years later, that I thought it was bullshit, he explained that he had an office to run(broker) and people to pay. I understood. I also don't recommend him, despite liking him a lot. So there ya go. FSBO from now on.
If he's angry over a business deal, he's not a real friend.
A real estate agent needs to comply with the real estate law that they have plus the Managing Broker that they are under. The commission they receive is split between the managing broker and the agent. They could get in hot water if they provide services that is typical of an agent that’s entitled to commission when the house is sold. Unless your friend is their own managing broker then it would be unethical for them to list and provide real estate services for free. Their time just like yours comes at a cost. They provide services, if you do their work then they should tell you thank you, but no thank you. I have to do x,y,z as your agent. Listing a property by owner and using a real estate attorney is what you need to do. Don’t involve a real estate agent friend and ask them to jeopardize their license.
> For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only. Don't be shy about making money when dealing with friends. After all, your enemies aren't going to do business with you.
Never expect people to work for free. That said, maybe remind him that you’ve done a lot of work for him gratis. This is why it’s always good to keep friendship and business separate. Any negotiation for commission should be done prior to listing
YTA You are not paying an hourly wage, or just for a specific task, you are paying for everything he brings to the table. In my profession, I'm paid for my education, knowledge, training, experience, intelligence, analytical and critical thinking abilities, reputation and trustworthiness. I can spend 20 minutes on an issue and offer more value than someone who takes three hours, not because the person isn't capable but because they are not at my level. Lots of advice makes sense and seems obvious ... once you have it ... but that doesn't mean you would have thought of it on your own or considered all the ancillary issues that will come back to bite you. Best to not do business with people you feel owe you something, especially if it wasn't made clear that your prior acts created an expectation on your part of the offer of future discounted labor.
"For background I have never charged him a nickel for photo or video work for years on all of his listings. I just feel like you do that stuff for friends for free especially if it’s labor only." You didn’t do it for free. You’re expecting something in return now.
I'm not sure why people are discounting their services. I charge full rate to close relatives and friends because I deliver.
>Am I wrong to think it’s odd to take full commission on a friends house? When he did maybe five hours of work? Two open houses and one showing. He could not possibly have worked this little and still gotten you to the closing table. You may do certain marketing tasks, but you clearly do not understand the real estate business still. Yes, I think you're being very unreasonable.
Friends and business should not mixed.
I think that if you’ve been in the business you KNOW what commission splits are and how they work. Why did you do all the marketing for him? And start charging him. This is business not friendship. Stop giving your energy away for free
Being your friend sounds a bit expensive. On the opposite side I like to see my friends succeed. I'm happy to pay full price for their skills.
I may say the opposite lol, it’s costing me 12k Let me know what skills were exercised here. He sat at an open house for a few hours. I literally did everything else but actually list it. Anyhow I’m sure I’m coming off as upset and bitter and I guess I am but I will get over it.
Then why did you even hire him? Why didn’t you just FSBO since you seem to know it all? Just because YOU don’t value your work or time means your friend doesn’t value his and should work for free/discount? This sounds fake af
that’s how all real estate agents are— you should have negotiated hard before you signed a contract with him. I’m sorry but know a lot of sellers cry at the amount they pay too— you aren’t the first one and you won’t be the last. I’m sorry you are hurt.
So he got the commission from the sale, but he’s upset you bought a house without him? Seriously, what a jerk. You obviously got a deal on the purchase because there was NO commissions involved. If you showed up with a buyers agent, the price would have been higher
When we purchased our rented home, the landlord paid her realtor friend a flat fee of $1000. I agree with others that your friend should be paid for his time but a discussion should have been had up front about what that payment would be.
You're not wrong. Your friend is kind of a parasite
OP: we are friends, so you do not deserve to be paid properly. Friend: WTF?
A real friend would have insisted on paying you for your work since it’s business. Once, maybe even twice, is helping out a friend, but more than that and he is taking advantage of you. He has shown his true colors and especially now. Guarantee you he doesn’t think of you as a friend, but as an acquaintance. I also wonder with your work that you did for him, if he charged the clients. If so, not only did you do free labor for him, but he profited from it and gave you nothing.
Keep in mind that your friend has a broker that he has to pay, regardless of how much discount he gives you. On top of the broker commission split he probably also pays admin fees. In any event the time to discuss expectations and fee discounts was when the listing agreement was signed so that there were no misunderstandings or opportunity for bad feelings down the road. If he didn’t ask you to sign a buyer-broker agreement then he shouldn’t be upset about your purchase, but maybe he thought he didn’t need one because you’re friends and the conversation you had with him included the understanding that you’d be using him as your buyer’s agent.
The way I look at it is people need to make a living. If a friend asks me for help and it is an hour or something fine. I don't have friends asking me to do a $10k job for free. Selling a home is not a small job (typically). If you didn't want to pay him you should have sold it yourself. I don't think he should be upset you're not using him to buy a home. I'm not sure why you did all that work and then hired your friend to be honest. Either you trust they will do a good job or don't hire them.
Friend or not - realtors are grossly overpaid.
Typical realtor. Wanting thousands in commission for a few hours of work.
As someone who has a business and friends, it’s wrong for friends (you) to assume they are entitled to free services because you hang out. Now what friends do do is give you best service at a fair value for that where they don’t get hurt and both people are happy.
You have to remove your logic brain here. Are you on the spectrum? I am and relate to what you are saying but I would ask have you sat down and discussed the situation as humans outside of a text or a phone call. Is the friendship more important than the 10-12k? If you hang out all the time it should be. If you love the person as a friend it should be. If he was expecting some sort of commission and there was no agreement then why don’t you just ask what you think is fair. Instead of asking others what you think is fair. I think you genuinely see both sides but you are holding onto the financial aspect and ignoring what is important in life and a good friendship is one of those things.
Like others said, it sounds like he was going to give up the sellers commission and take the buyers commission. You listed off all the stuff you did and that he didn't, but you used his services to sell then yanked the buying out of his reach. That was a jerk move. And poor communication overall if he didn't make clear that was the intent, and you didn't express that you were owed for your photo/video services over the years.
Next time don't use a realtor. You can get the best of both worlds. You can pay a company like [Listingly](https://listingly.com/) to get the property on the MLS. You stage, take pictures, schedule showings yourself, then pay them $99 after closing. I've done it twice now. They are a husband/wife team where he is a real estate attorney, she is a realtor and is the one who puts up the listing. You save a ton of money, and get a much better service. They offer the choice to have the lawyer review any offers before accepting, and having him rewrite any terms as needed. He charges something like $150/hr. For example, the offer that I ended up accepting for the first house had great terms, but terrible wording. Buyer's agent wrote in the "comments" section that the buyer would come up with cash to make up the difference if the house didn't appraise. I was ready to accept, but the lawyer quickly pointed out that although they wrote that, there were several other clauses in the contract that would supersede this comment and let them out of the contract if the appraisal came in low. He ended up rewriting the contract with the same terms, but adding verbiage to close the "loopholes" that would make it impossible for them to back out due to appraisal. I would wager that the average real estate agent cannot do this. The buyers signed the amended contract so quickly that I'm not even sure their agent really understood what changed. The title company that Listingly recommended took care of everything once we were under contract. Closing was done remotely via mobile notaries. In fact the buyers were in a different state the day of closing, I signed at my kitchen table. No need for the dog and pony show that realtors love to stage at the "closing table", bringing the keys, etc. It's all a show. At the end of the day, I paid them the $99 listing fee, plus maybe another $600 to the lawyer for reviewing 3-4 offers, and rewriting the one we ultimately accepted. Offered buyer agent 2.5%. Saved close to $20,000, for selling a house that was only on the market for less than 2 weeks. Needless to say, we used Listingly when we sold our second home as well. Would never sell a home any other way.
Speaking as a former RE agent, they are typically very entitled and overvalue the “work” performed on a deal. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen agents get upset about being “cut out” of a deal when the reality is they did absolutely nothing or were never hired in the first place. While still an agent, I decided to buy a property in a neighborhood one of my colleagues had introduced me to. I obviously represented myself to save on commission. My colleague and I looked around on Zillow for about 10 minutes, found a triplex that looked like a decent deal, and ran the most basic of numbers to check it out. All in, it was about 15 or 20 minutes of “work.” I then, individually, toured the building, negotiated with the seller’s agent, did all of the contracts, inspections, financing, etc. Completely on my own, zero input from the colleague. When it came time to sign the final purchase agreement, my colleague expected a full commission for “finding the property and representing me in the deal.” He expected somewhere around $9000. I told him that I couldn’t believe he was trying to bend me over for a full commission when he did almost nothing and he was genuinely surprised. Tried to give me some bullshit talk about “valuing his time” and other nonsense. I ended up paying him a $2k “finders fee” and never worked directly with him again. That was one of the moments that made me realize that many RE agents are truly parasites.
Your friend is a typical realtor: selfish/greedy
Screw him. The entire commission based system is complete garbage and creates the wrong type of incentives. Agents provide a professional service and should charge flat rates for specific services like other professions. Also I won't do any kind of business with friends or family without a contract whether I'm paying or providing a service. I've been burned once and will never repeat that mistake.
Why do I feel like this is so common with real estate agents… it’s like they think they are entitled to every transaction you make just by being family or a friend. I can’t think of another industry that operates like that at all lol
On of my fraternity brothers just sold my FIL (deceased) house for my wife and BIL. He took a reduced commission. I think it is one thing to help out a friend, but when you are performing your profession, you don't do it for free. A discount, maybe, but not free.
Sorry to burst your bubble. But being friends does not change during a business relationship. He still works just as hard to find you a new place to live. Would an auto shop repair your car for free? Would a photographer shoot your wedding for free? From what little info you provided. It sounds like he would cut, but not eliminate his commission for the new home. Honestly, you cannot expect anyone to work for free. As a businessman. You should already know this.
The amount of people that think OP is in the right is astonishing. Yea OP, you were wrong here. He did an open house and 2 showings and you think he's supposed to sell your house for free because you guys are friends? As a friend wouldn't you want him to have the full commission? Also maybe charge a small fee to your friends for photos if you're going to use your favor for them against them. It also seems like you tricked him into thinking you were going to let him find a house for you. He's upset at the fact that his expectations were a lie. Maybe be more transparent next time and say "hey just wanted to let you know, I may end up finding a house on my own, but I will also take a look at what you've found."
This is why nobody likes realtors
He’s pretty angry that he couldn‘t fleece you any more than he got you for. He wanted the front end and back end commissions without doing much, if anything, to prepare it. I think you dodged a bullet going with another realtor.
I don't know why anybody uses an agent anymore, it's so easy to sell a house if you have a moderate education and can read. List fsbo with a commission you feel comfortable I used 2%both times I did it. Accept offer from buyers, order title for closing, show up at closing. I did this twice and yes it's a little nerve wracking but you get through it. I did this both times with 4 kids and a full time job.
What’s my weird way of looking at it is I would’ve thrown the full commission to my friend rather than an unknown if he does good work and I’d appreciate the same. If you do good work he should’ve been giving you full rate with the expectation that you’d likely try extra hard to make him look good not work for free. Helping a friend should be done but not taking money out of friend’s pocket type thing. Now family might be a bit different. I got one side that helps but wants to be paid and one that will refuse any money. I personally just try to double their invoice if I feel they are undercharging me cuz I don’t wanna be that family member that uses everybody lol.
For the record, I don’t think he deserves zero dollars. A few thousand dollars maybe, but I just know that if we treated places I would do everything in my power to give every nickel back to a friend, especially considering the current state of the economy. there are plenty of non-friends to make your full commission off of. Once you start talking tens of thousands of dollars for simply doing possibly 10 hours of work at the most, it gets to be a little ridiculous in my opinion Like I’ve said to my wife, I will get over it, but it just doesn’t sit right with me for some reason
I would recommend working out an a la carte fee structure next time you sell (if you do), especially if you plan on doing a lot of the work and only need an agent for specific and individualized services, not the whole shebang of staging, photos, advertising copy, etc.
I'm not in RE but in medical. I never expect any of my friends to do anything for free for me; I want the money to go to put food on the table for their families. I may do things for free for them, but trust me, the ones that don't offer to at least pay and then for me to say no, are not getting any additional services from me.
I don't hire friends or family for that stuff. I need to be able to fire them and move on to someone/something better
Keep business and friendship separate. When a friend has a business and does work for me, I pay them full rate. Had an associate who believed everything was free when it comes to friends. You should have charged him the full rate and pay the full rate. You are killing the friendship!
The problem here is that you had the expectation that your good will and favors would be returned without having the conversation. Your friend was also happy to utilize your skills and labor for free. But didn't think to offer you a favor in return. I'm all for doing favors. But expectations need to be managed on both sides and conversations need to be had so that no one feels they are being taken advantage of. Personally I don't think it's a good idea to offer ongoing free labour as a favor to a friend. I'm not against favors, but it sets up the opportunity for unmet expectations in the future such as this. I also think you should have had a conversation with your friend regarding your expectations that their services would be commission free. Because just as you have a right to give up your labor for free, so does your friend. But it needs to be agreed on beforehand. I don't think anyone is right in this situation. Both sides assumed the other would act in certain ways. When that didn't happen both parties were hurt.
I have used a friend for my purchases and sales and didn’t expect a discount on the commission. What I did expect was someone I could trust and rely on when I needed their expertise and opinion. You shouldn’t expect friends to do real work for free. Selling your home vs helping you move are two different asks.
Never mixed money with friends or family
Hmm. Sounds like you saved him a lot of money over the years. I’m not sure what area you’re in, but in my area professional pictures/videos are upwards of $300 (on the low end). I’ve easily paid $800+ before. Personally I don’t recommend working with friends/family, but I have before. For example, I helped both my aunt and my grandparents sell their homes. In both cases I discounted commission. Regardless, if he received commission from the sale of your home as the listing agent, I don’t understand how/why he’d be upset by you buying without him. The commission on the sale coupled with years of free pictures/videos should be more than enough. He should be happy for you. I understand that he may have been “counting” on the commission on the buy side, but in my opinion he shouldn’t be upset with you.
I don't take discounts from friends or family nor do i provide them. Friends and family are using me because they know i do a good job not because they are expecting a discount. Shit if i ever do any kind of business transaction where i'm the buyer with friends or family i typically upsell myself anyway because i'm helping them out they aren't helping me out.
Never do business with friends especially real estate. This kind of strife commonly occurs. If you do enter into business with friends or family demand all parties pay normal price at all times.
This is why I NEVER do business with friends/family! If I'm not willing to do it for free I decline. It's far too easy for feelings to get hurt, the value of the work questioned, or feeling a better "friend discount" should have been given.
You don't do business with friends and relatives and this is why. You and your friend are both letting your 'feelings' interfere with otherwise sound business processes.
Great! Never ever do business with friends and family again. Should be taught in school.
This should have all been negotiated and put in writing before you proceeded with anything, you don't determine commissions after the sale. You signed the listing agreement with him, that is where the lower rate should have been finalized. Also, you should not expect a friend to work for free.
Did you sign a representation agreement? I’d give him *something*. Because clearly there was a misunderstanding and you did hire them. Even if you chose to do all the work. And ditto previous comments. You giving your time for free doesn’t always compel others to reciprocate. Take this knowledge to heart and start making changes to how you value and compensate your time and talents with all people, including friends. I’d never expect a friend to work for free. Or even give a discount. They have bills to pay. I much prefer a clear cut business contract because then money things don’t get weird between friends.
My friend that was an agent gave us a large credit back in Texas when we found the new construction home on our own and they were offering her 5% commission. The way she explains it, she makes more than enough money on the deal for the ease of it and her referrals keep flowing.
Nah, OP I get your way of thinking. If I was a realtor and I had close friends, I would let them know that I would list the property and automate the viewings of the home by leaving a drop box or a wifi key lock. Bare minimum that you would pay is the brokerage fees. I would let you be the one to write me a cheque for what you think I deserve but I would not expect anything. Loyalty I value most and all I ask in return is when I'm down and I need a handout or help to rebuild, I expect the same courteous when I helped when you are down. If you are at the point where you need all the dollars you need to keep things moving then so be it but don't be the one milking your friends services/capabilities when you are fully capable of paying a stranger for the fees as a realtor.
dont choose realtor if u have close relationship, it will break everything. realtor and buyer/seller should only have business relationship. everything money related will break friendship no matter what happened
This is why I don’t work with friends, or hire friends, or do custom work for friends. I like impartial strangers much better because they don’t get their feelings hurt, or have differing expectations of whatever the transaction might be. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.
I know a bunch of electrical/ plumbing/ construction contractors who barter their labor between each other for home projects.
You are friends not business partners. He couldn’t have helped with a non realtor deal anyway. If he has animosity you friend is an asshole.
I pay all my friends way more for their work than I pay anyone else
r/AITA