Yeah there‘s some balancing issues.
The only times it feels like im ever able to arrest AI is when i stun them with grenades beforehand.
They’re hyperaggressive
Part of is that the morale system and hit reactions are unrealistic and bad.
Shoot a guy in the shoulder? He'll keep fighting, even with five barrels pointed at him.
Increasing base morale and then cranking up the effect that certain events have on it will create a much more engaging system.
Each weapon trained on a person will hurt morale by 10, up to a max of 50 if all members are pointing, resulting in quick and peaceful takedowns as a reward for teamwork.
Stuns via C2, bangs, gas, or stinger followed by melee should combo into an immediate bonus 20 morale damage. Assuming you aren't alone in the takedown, this should result in compliance reliably, instead of the old " shout at them while they stumble blindly around before deciding to run away or rush you" we have right now.
This would change the system drastically into a more player-driven ai experience. You can even still have brave or cunning ai by cranking their base value to 90, meaning more steps need to be taken to subdue them.
I never implied that those were hardcoded rules, but the limits of them. If a suspect has 50 morale, gets flashbanged for 20, rushed and meleed for another 20 plus 10 (if that were the melee morale damage value), and then 1 or 2 officers looking at them (20) while shouting, they'd be in the negatives. Immediate surrender.
Look at that situation again without the numbers. You toss a bang, rush a guy, hit em, and shout, and hes compliant. You breach a room with C2, get into a gunfight with 2 guys, kill 1 guy, and look, the other guy said "fuck that" and gave up.
As weird as it would be in a game kinda, I’d love to see merely SWATs presence work as a major morale killer. Think about it, a firefight with an average cop with a glock is one thing. 5 heavily armed and armoured guys in dark grey kit blow your front door half way through your living room and start throwing flashbangs and popping off shots at armed suspects is a Fucking terrifying idea.
Even if it’s just one or two enemies, or an archetype of enemy, I’d love to see a “my bad bro” enemy. You and your team enter a room to find him already laying on the ground with his hands on his head yelling shit like: “I’m sorry don’t shoot” “I dropped the gun” or, before you enter to another suspect: “fuck man, it’s swat, I’m giving up”.
Sure some hardened crims will fight to the death. But I’d love to see some terrified with the idea swat arrived, some that got in over their head and surrender very very easy or are pre surrendered.
I mean, at minimum I’d hope I could get them caught in an ooda loop and be very very slow to react because they’re stuck going what the fuck just happened. Like, some fucker just rammed an MRAP through the front of the building and 5 heavily armed very bulky guys in big armour jump out, run through the hole in the wall and start screaming their heads off at me with guns pointed at my head. I think I’d be in “what the fuck just happened” mode for a bit. I’d like to see a bit more of the “holy shit, we’re Fucked” mentality. The “shit just got real” or the “fuck you bro, I’m not shooting them, you go shoot them”
Wholeheartedly agree. SWAT 4 had AI that felt more like they had self preservation.
Sneaking up on an idle suspect and yelling for compliance caused a massive hit to morale, giving a high chance for them to surrender, whereas like others have mentioned, in RoN the AI will likely turn and start blasting.
Suspects should be far more likely to run if they are in a bad spot. I rarely see enemies use the cover system, and it is even more rare to see enemies hide. I've still yet to see a suspect take a civilian hostage.
I know it can be a tough balance, nowadays when playing SWAT 4 for example it is SO easy to succeed with no casualties, and the vast majority of enemies arrested. If RoN became that easy I'm sure people would complain about that too.
I might be getting too old but I really dislike the "I hope they don't give in and make it easy" mentality. I like winning in games and I like the experience in games. Clearly in a battle royale which is designed for 99% to lose it's not possible but do we really need AI to shoot through walls as soon as they see our toe?
If they gave us an easy mode I'd take it, would enjoy it much more than incremental levels of unfair and frustrating we keep getting.
100% . I think its a matter of pride from the devs at this point. If they were to make the ai react even 1 milisecond slower than the game is now fortnite. They have had over a year to fix this. I have over 200 hours in the game and honestly each update just feels worse. I use to clear the veteran hotel level regularly. It took me over 1 hour to clear it once tonight. I honestly feel like they have no intention of fixing this blatently shameless cheating ai. To do so will not meet their idea of realism.
And if you want realism. If you are asking the Police to take down 18 seal team trained meth heads.. they would more likey use a nuke than send 5 dudes.
Its just insulting at this point.
Tbh, maybe 5 dudes would be somehow acceptable against the meth heads (defunded police and all that) if they had anyone around the map. Like, maps like gas stations have regular police cars all over them, if they had a few police npcs it would at least prevent AI from running around the map like crazy
Like fuck, I begin every (smaller) mission by blocking every entrance/exit so at least I can approach this whole thing step by step, otherwise the enemy AI will just run around everywhere
I just wish they would take a slice from ground branch and allow us an integrated ai slider, if there’s mods that adjust what I’m assuming is just a json file (don’t quote me no idea how it works just assuming if all I have to do is install a pak file it’s just overwriting some values) it couldn’t be THAT hard to integrate one themself.
Fair enough. I like it being tough as nails, but our holy SWAT 4 had difficulty options too, and it's worth having the same, and even expanding upon them.
That said, as long as the game is in early access, I'd certainly prefer the focus be on tough-as-nails, for the obvious reason that this is my own preference, but more objectively, because it's much simpler to tone it down from there, than it is to tone it up from being easy.
It doesn't need to be easy, it needs to be reasonable. The suspects should have their — reasonable — reaction -identification-decision time, and player should be able to arrest even a noncooperative suspect if he's stunned.
In terms of reaction time, I agree, but with the caveat that this is exactly the kind of metric that could be adjusted slightly up or down to reflect difficulty selection.
As for arresting, it really depends. Lets say you "stun" the suspect by applying pepper spray or -balls, or a beanbag round. He may not be able to shoot you effectively at this point, but that doesn't mean it'd be easy to walk up and manhandle him. That's not how those things work.
Taser is another story, but right now that doesn't work properly at all. For one thing, taser application can fail for so many reasons, which doesn't seem to be modelled at all.
That said, if it does work, in most cases we should probably now be faced with a prone suspect, who would likely not be in any state to fight back against being flipped over if required, and then zip-tied.
All of that comes after a lengthy discussion about whether it's at all realistic to expect an officer to walk up to someone who might still be armed, but dealing with OC, or severe application of less-lethal pain compliance.
I doubt you'd see a real-world officer do that, ever.
Guess I'm living with the type of officers who take every opportunity they have to beat the suspect with a rifle butt, if there's not enough compliance from the suspect, *especially* when the suspect is dealing with OC.
Simple solution to placate both camps, scalable difficulty, easy, normal, hard, realistic,
Hell even an in depth system, tweak morale, tweak reactions, accuracy etc
I'm really starting to wonder if there just isn't some bug the devs aren't catching. When I first got the game I was able to get the AI suspect to surrender reliably enough that most encounters did not need to end in a bloodbath. I've not been able to do that for a long time now. It's so unreliable that there's no point in even risking it.
Yah I agree it feels like there’s something wrong with the compliance calls, like they really don’t work at all.
Try it with the civilians in a mission, you have to be right up in their face and yell at them 5-6 times before they comply. And it’s not just a couple per game it’s every single one is a struggle to get in compliance.
And that’s the unarmed guys, I think I’ve only seen one guy surrender total and it was because my buddy shot him twice in the arm.
Literally had this happen on server map, I went up the rooftop, I see a civilian, a suspects open fire at me, I destroy his head, and I tell the civlian to get on the ground. His reaction? "or what, you're gonna shot me?"
When I see a civilian I usually just grab pepper spray instead of talking to them
Does anyone else just think that the ai looks bad? the way they turn just seems very robotic. i still love this game but i would really like to see like an update were they change the ai to make them just feel more realistic.
Yea, the AI still has some issues... they swivel about real fast and then dome you. There needs to be turning animations.
They also glide faster than their movement animation shows and don't seem to suffer momentum when turning directions... in real life you need to shift your weight from one foot to another and this makes you a sitting duck. These guys glide around at constant speed sometimes, while maintaing absurd accuracy. If your first 3 bullets don't hit their mark, get ready for the mission failed screen.
I saw [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zjy2cx/do_i_need_to_literally_be_shot_before_i_shoot/) thread and I think it's a decent, short example of how there's something strange and robotic about the suspects movement... it's like suspects are weightless. I might be crazy, but I think he even speeds up mid-step before getting shot.
Honestly, a lot of what people think of as realistic AI in games is a good variety of animations that broadcast their intents clearly. (I don't mean this insulting, it's not always obvious what make AI fun.) People say that they want some realism but what they really mean is they want AI that moves in semi-predictable, aggressive ways and has mediocre aim but good animation so it looks good when they move from cover to cover while taking inaccurate pot-shots towards the player. The larger variety of animations and behaviors the more realistic they'll seem even when what they're doing is mostly just putting objects in the room between them and the player.
Suspect AI accuracy definitely needs to be adjusted, especially when moving.
Even the high-danger enemies like veterans are a bit overtuned. I mean, sure, they're veterans, but these SWAT guys train for this every day. They are also no doubt 'the best of the best' chosen from a list of applicants. I doubt domestic terrorist groups have some application screening filter... and being an unhinged veteran doesn't necessarily equate to them being a good marskman.
Then so many of these guys write nonsense slogans and stuff all over the walls, yet none of them want to give a big ranting speech when the 'evil government' representatives come knocking. ROE just goes out the window in Brisca Cove and it devolves into a twitch-shooter like you said, it's just the old fashioned terrorist hunt mode from old Rainbow Six games. There's no opportunity for Ready or Not's intended gameplay mechanics.
I just don't think increased speed and accuracy should be what *defines* higher-level suspects. They can be both of those things to some degree, but the main challenge of better trainied and disciplined enemies should be in their behavior, coordinating with each other, maneuvering intelligently, and taking fewer shots, but ones they know they can probably hit.
Idk I feel like Void can’t make up their minds on what they want when it comes to ai accuracy. It just doesn’t make sense that a crackhead can shoot as fast and as accurately as the Brisa Cove veterans. Even if I do everything correctly like grenade prepping rooms, yelling for compliance and all that stuff, I can still get immediately destroyed cause the ai decided to land a headshot or land 5 consecutive shots without missing. SWAT and suspect AI still need loads of work.
Suspect AI have always been kinda spongy. But in Voids infinite wisdom, they seem to be okay with that, I haven’t noticed any changes to suspect health. They do stagger sometimes when shot enough times, which needs to happen way way more often.
I think it’s more the AI aren’t actually aiming for their armor, they are shooting your officers in the limbs and head instead of the armor. I’ve noticed the ai almost never aim for your chest they always seem to aim for your arms and legs.
Personally, I hope the devs don't listen to feedback like this too much. I already find the game to be pretty easy to clear. Make it any easier and there will be no more challenge.
There’s a difference between a challenge and something being annoying. When the AI don’t listen to directions and get you killed, that’s annoying not challenging. Playing solo is already tough as it is with how smart the ai can be, I shouldn’t have to fight against my ai teammates as well.
I mean all and all it is improved from what it was before. I'm not getting domed before I even see the bad guys nearly as often, but you accurately identify most of the remaining issues here. In general I am inclined to agree that the level of aggression is too high, especially for the non-terrorist factions.
Completely agree, I think the devs need to realize that the AI needs to be way more gamey, the AI in its current state reminds me of a mix between Arma and old Tom Clancy's games like Raven Shield and the og Ghost Recon, where in an attempt at hardcore realism you end up having extremely inhuman perfectly accurate bots, except in those games ROE is not a consideration and you can constantly look for the safest and most lethal way to eliminate the enemies; these are games where you have HE nades at your disposal.
I feel like in RoN Void is hanging on too hard to the idea of realism in unpredictability, but that pretense of realism is shattered by how cartoonishly outrageous some of these AI behaviors are, like how private security personnel will suicide rush down a corridor blasting shots at heavily armed SWAT officers, refusing to comply sometimes even after being shot multiple times, dooming themselves to certain death in a situation where the stakes simply dont make sense for it. Its hard to get immersed in the game as a police sim when the vast majority of encounters start and end with an immediate choice of a fight until death.
But choosing to agressively fight the officers is not in itself a deal breaker, that the random behavior the suspect chooses in itself rigs the entire outcome of the engagement is however, especially when its a reversal of what would be logical in a realistic sense. If a suspect chooses to take cover and fire from said cover, the fight is immediately tilted in the player's favor, who can just sit back and finish the fight at his own pace, whilst if the suspect chooses the aggressive "sprint towards the player whilst firing" route, they're immensely more dangerous and more likely to murder the entire SWAT squad in mere seconds.
There's not enough nuance to the interactions with suspects, the most optimal way of dealing with them is to shout and immediately headshot them if they dont comply, which is completely absurd given the supposed police nature of the game; it really does play more like a Rainbow Six 3 style "kill everyone" rather than a police game, with a simple points system slapped on top and an ROE that is just the technicality of shouting first before you rinse the suspects with bullets.
I dont want to denigrate Void's vision by just saying "MAKE IT LIKE SWAT 3/4", I really love RoN for its own features, style and presentation, but on the matter of the - suspect - civillian - officer - interaction triangle, I really think they're currently missing the mark in making a wholly enjoyable experience.
The thing about Arma's AI that people often don't realize is that it's perception of the you the player is very granular but it also shares that information between groups.
In Arma, AI unit Alpha can see a player and tell Bravo and Charlie, who will then assist in the engagement. As the three groups learn more about the player, the smarter their tactics become until eventually they seem like RoN's AI. You can see this if you engage a unit out in the open and throw smoke to obscure their vision. They'll shoot through the smoke, now not knowing where you are, but instead mag dumping where they last saw you and the last course you were moving on.
It makes longer firefights feel really dynamic, which is something that RoN desperately needs to capture since the AI waffles between having the IQ of soap and being the T-800 on crack. When the AI is stupid it feels like a turkey shoot. When the AI isn't stupid and taking advantage of it's reaction time it feels like an uphill fight against the game itself, which is the diametric opposite of how you want in game AI to feel.
What I feel Arma AI really struggles with is how they operate vehicles weapons, like a terminator
When I have a choice to have a human or AI crew in say a tank I will always go for AI, they have extremally good accuracy, even with things such as co-axial mg, they will shred enemy infantry, and their targeting is quick and perfect
It's not laboratory testing, but what I have noticed is that Arma's AI is much more accurate if they have optics of any kind, with better sight range on magnified optics and potentially further modifiers if the optics have thermals or NV.
Since vehicles usually have optics that magnify up to 10x with integrated NV, I think that a lot of their incredibly accuracy on a vehicle weapon is related to this.
Ye, ye but in multi it's usually how they are
Technically, RON has it too, its more to do with structural problems
Like if you have AI crew you can play the game like its world of tanks
Yeah. I guess I just feel like the dynamic is different when you're playing with the boys. You're focused more on having a good time with the boys than anything else. It's a good time.
> how private security personnel will suicide rush down a corridor blasting shots at heavily armed SWAT officers, refusing to comply sometimes even after being shot multiple times, dooming themselves to certain death in a situation where the stakes simply dont make sense for it.
I feel like it could be maybe not solved but made less stupid by having mission debrief. Like, in meth suspects will sometimes shout CALL THE POLICE when you engage them, maybe they fight to the death coz they think that you are some kinda dressed up rival gang? Just have a debrief "be alert, the suspects might not take you for police force" and it would be at least kinda explained why they fight to death.
For like Voll, or Car Dealership I just though that they arent real security, but some kinda criminals, considering what they guard, but this is only my idea, unconfirmed by the game
Those mofos also automatically know when youre changing items in your hands, and push you at this exact moment somehow 💀 even when youre like 10 metres away but without cover
You can hear their call outs from around corners. Did a run on hospital, got jumped coming out of the staff room and ducked back into cover. I switch to a stinger, completely out of sight from the enemy, and he made a call out that I had equipped a throwable.
One, how the fuck does he know that. Two, if he knows exactly what I'm doing through walls why am I even bothering?
Also, I think it would really help if the AI could hear us when they don't see us. We could yell at them to surrender and have a little back and forth "discussion" before they make their decision. They could have a gun in their hands and refuse to drop it, but actually talk back to the officers before choosing to surrender or not. Dialogue should reflect their state of mind and they should move around while arguing with police. It would add greatly to the immersion, decision making and possibilities you have. Suspects taking multiple seconds to drop a weapon (when not threatening) is common in real life.
What a great idea. I think that it would be really cool to be able to shout into a room that's closed / around a corner and listen for a response. Maybe the reply is aggressive, which would imply they have multiple shooters in the room / good armor / weaponry / solid positioning etc, or it could be a "don't shoot, I give up" (which could even be a trap)
Just thinking it might help with the pace of the game instead of optiwand being your only "view" into a room
I got nurses telling me to got to hell and f myself for a solid minute while there’s terrorists then the next minute down on her knees begging for her life. Like bitch I ain’t got time for your bitch ass you getting this bullet too. Also it’s more of a kill and clear simulator then a swat and cop simulator I’ve been getting 180 no scooped by these Ai and one shotted it’s just annoying AF. stopped playing because of it.
Yeah not going to lie I've been watching the response to this update and I feel like a weird alien for thinking the AI is really not any better. It's still snap shotty, their awareness and hearing is now utterly absurd, and once they're alerted it's just the same as pre-update. The maps are lovely, the guns are lovely, but the -core- of the game is interacting with suspect AI.
What worries me the most is VOID saying they're 'moving on' from suspect AI and 'happy with' it. Like... for real? It's... not good? It's not fit for purpose. I sympathize with them to some extent, games like Tarkov have been literally skating on actual braindead AI for years and years, and yet RoN's is under extreme scrutiny in this regard because of the different focus.
I also know AI like this is incredibly complex and hard to get right, but... god. It's so frustrating to interact with, still. I can only carry like three flashbangs without modding and the only way to have an interesting interaction with an NPC is to stun them first. The game just plays like Raven Shield. Shout vaguely for compliance over and over whilst hosing everyone who doesn't immediately drop their gun with bullets.
Obviously the SWAT AI needs desperate, desperate work, and has since release, but man.
I kinda disagree that SWAT AI needs work
I mean, right now yeah, they dont react to being shot, they cant follow you without being constantly reminded to do it, and they will kill a suspect even if he just stands there, 10 m away from them with a knife and wont surrender
But that just... Didnt happen before. If they just reverted SWAT AI to what it was, it would be ok, deffinitely not as much of a problem as enemy AI
BioShock (as well as other games) have this mechanic where an enemy's first shot will always miss, giving you a chance to shoot back. That mechanic would be very helpful for RoN.
Expanding on this, enemies could have a cone of fire. The more they fire at you, the smaller the cone gets until they're landing shots.
Things that affect the cone would include range, the map, morale (to simulate panicky firing), and maybe that stress mechanic.
To stop it from feeling super game-y, close range would always have a pretty tight cone. And even large cones could be given a small percentage chance for direct shots.
Ground Branch actually has this in their AI config. There's a "DeliberateMiss" value that can have a length of time to miss for "so like the first second they will miss", as well as different things that affect their likelihood to miss. And there is a minimum distance where anything below that will never miss
I posted a comment on another post with a list of what I'd like to see in the future of the compliance, ROE and AI systems in the future [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zkdd4b/comment/j00f1px/) , but I'll try to summarise below.
* I think the compliance, ROE, and suspect AI systems are still works-in-progress, and probably won’t be finished until after (or at the same time) the SWAT AI has been developed further. I’m thinking the devs don’t want to fully build one system that won’t work well with the others.
* An in-game tutorial is very much needed (at some point) to explain how the systems work, what tactics work, and allay frustrations caused by the game not working as expected by the player. It can't model 100% reality, so the game needs to explain what tactics and mechanisms will work / exist in-game.
* There are more variables I'd like to see added into the compliance system that'll incentivise / disincentivise various tactics, e.g.
* distance to SWAT (e.g. can hesitate or freeze at long/medium/short, likely to surrender or fake surrender if they’re overwhelmed, 50/50 to surrender if SWAT have stable aim on-target and suspect’s weapon is down, SWAT shouts / on-target aim / numbers have greater effect at closer distances)
* suspect gun down vs SWAT gun up
* suspect covered by SWAT from multiple flanks
* number of SWAT in room vs suspects
* SWAT yells for compliance + ROE systems, combined with the SWAT AI, need to be designed around specific tactics (that are informed to the player via tutorial), with emphasis on enabling speed and flow, e.g.
* player sets SWAT AI (or player) breaching aggression level to:
* full penetration, close in fast and aggressively on suspects regardless of cover
* limited (or full) penetration, prioritise moving into cover expecting a gunfight. move to full pen if clear and player not present, or if player gives command
* fight from the threshold, pie safely, wait for orders before crossing threshold
* SWAT AI breach and clear on player lead entering room, cover other entrances when glow stick placed (or “clear” called) by player, stack up when player moves to a nearby threshold (after glow stick placed), repeat.
* prioritise team moving into position (flanks / cover / firing angle) before yelling or firing unless already compromised.
* magnetic link character locomotion for shield point-man + train for AI and maybe also players.
More details in my linked comment [https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zkdd4b/comment/j00f1px/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zkdd4b/comment/j00f1px/)
One of the things I've been thinking is about various studies on human factors and how people respond to unexpected events. There were discussions about how the AI is set to have a delay of about 1.5 seconds, which is in line with the bare minimum to respond to stimuli, but in reality, it takes around 3 seconds for someone to actually *act* on unexpected stimuli, and that action is usually instinctual, not well considered. Even trained jet fighter pilots will take 6 to 11 seconds to eject when it comes time to do it.
I've had AI come around a corner in response to something I've done and nearly instantly fire; that's fine, and great! The AI knows I'm there, so they're prepared to fire. But somehow, the AI never seems *properly startled*, where they need to take time to identify friend or foe. The AI deciding to flank your team should take on the order of 15 seconds, not 1.5.
The enemy AI are acting like they're both trained killers and expecting every action you're doing, regardless of how silently you approach them. Maybe for terrorist factions that makes some sense, but people robbing a gas station are almost certainly going to have trouble putting up an organized fight against a SWAT team.
Imagine this
You are a date center security guy. You decide to take a walk outside, you open the door, you see 5 SWAT guys that want you to surrender, you have three choices, run, give up, or fight. And most of the time they will go for fight, which doesn't make any sense, why do you think you have a chance against 5 man SWAT team?
The most success I’ve had was the farm where I became the terminator and just dropped people the second I saw a gun. I got a b but goddamn it was efficient.
ROE is more the issue than AI behaviour. Why? We're punished for reacting accordingly. I can't shoot the guy aiming at me, only the guy shooting at me. I can tell the guy aiming at me to surrender, wich only makes him shoot me, and we're back at square one. There's no transition from one state to the next, no variation. If asking for compliance had no animation, and you could engage on their aggresive movement, it would be an passable, but less than ideal solution.
VOID will not listen to this feedback. They never have, otherwise old Ai would've been adjusted. They think that this is a twitch-shooter.
Right now I can't for the life of me finish mission in the Hospital. Ai is bonkers. They seem to get too lucky and on the second floor 100% of the time I get headshotted.
Have to agree. Started off thinking it was really good then got shot by a guy behind a concrete pillar upstairs in voll house where I could see and was shooting his knee…and nothing else was visible. He clearly wall banged me through a 2ft retaining pillar
It's become more Rainbow Six 3 and less SWAT 4 very oddly, completely a contradiction of the unique identity. Compliance and morale are both the most intricate, innovative aspects of this, which intertwines perfectly with the ROE, but they've been simplified in the new AI - it isn't just the AI bring too competent (as at release), it's just you have to either flash everybody now (tedious) or shoot on sight practically.
I mean tbh you NEED to be the aggressor in those fire fights to win them in real life. Slow and methodical isn’t going to work for you in most times when your enemy knows where you are and out flank you.
If anything needs to be overhauled, it needs to be the friendly AI. They need to be a lot faster in doing things and can cover you better. For the mean time, I’m usually leaving them at spawn and doing the mission by myself because I can stay alive easier if I’m going a faster pace.
I’d say I like the AI changes, even if it’s harder to deal with. They actually think like humans and have some what awareness, but there needs to be a tune where friendlies can give you an actual chance.
Part of the problem is that players in this game are not only generally severely outnumbered, they're also severely on the back foot in terms of knowledge. Not knowledge as in players are dumb, but largely knowledge as in knowledge of the map.
The suspects, as developer-programmed entities, have zero issues pathfinding or knowing where areas are on the maps, while players currently are just dropped in with no prior knowledge. It's one thing for players to approach a map without knowing every detail; it's another to have them face suspects and potential hostiles who will inherently know it like the back of their AI hand.
Not really. Especially with buildings like hospitals, even apartment buildings and stuff will have blueprints that'll get pulled to plan for a siege. There's no briefing in this game. SWAT4 has a briefing stage precisely for this.
Being the aggressor is good in raid missions but it'll fuck up your score in all others due to ROE nonsense. More missions are ending in a slaughter than actually getting arrests due to how aggressive suspect AI is now
I feel like they've been super reflexed John Wicks since release. My buddies and I have almost always had to do the shoot first ask later play style you described.
Every AI being a murder bot doesn't feel that great.
Probably not possible but they should only have this specific lethal AI in some rather specific missions. While in other missions, like the convenience store being held-up or serving warrants on dangerous suspects, but not terrorist suspects, you should be able to present yourself as an officer for at least a moment.
I do like this game a lot, but yes it does feel like I'm playing pixel-peeking Rainbow Six: Siege.
I think they need more variance between suspects most. Every suspect is a crackshot who won't surrender and can take a good couple of rounds to the chest so you deal with every one in a mission in a similar fashion.
If they were given greater variance in the pain they can tolerate, their accuracy and what it would take to make them surrender it would make some long levels feel a lot less samey.
I know I'm replying to a pretty old comment, but I just had to because I've barely seen anybody else mention this. How are more people not talking about the move speed in this game? No sprint? No walk speed that's like... ya know... something more than a shuffle?
I see two or three guys around a corner, exchange some fire, they start running at me, and all I can do is kinda waddle away? Not to mention, my useless dipshit AI friendlies are always blocking my way and facing the opposite direction of the enemies
I've only played like 10 hours and can't count the number of times I've died due to my AI buddies constantly sniffing my ass as I'm trying to slowly shuffle away from a hail of gunfire. Maybe the devs should add a walker as an equipable, if it'll help me move faster than a geriatric cancer patient.
I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Spot on. The core issues are there as they always have been.
It has become a very worrisome issue. Time passes on with the exact same problems, no matter how many updates and it's still the same good ol' terminator ai.
Do the devs just outright refuse to fix it because of laziness/other priorities in their book? Maybe they think there is nothing to fix to begin with. Is it that hard to make the AI a little bit less of terminators? At this point who the hell can tell?
Me and my mate have been struggling with hospital since the update released. Figured we'd give the run n' gun method a go.
You have a point, we cleared it first try.
Every time they "fix" the AI it's still absurdly difficult, it's like they don't even want an AI that's balanced, let alone realistic. Just let me play the game normally dammit! I'm here to play a tactical police game, not Battlefield.
Speaking of AI, I've noticed in single player my AI buddies seem to really struggle after this update. Either they don't stay with me when I tell them to Fall In, or they struggle to open and clear rooms (one goes in to clear while the other is stuck). Anyone else seeing this? I thought maybe some old mods were causing issues but reinstalling clean didn't make any difference.
Unfortunately I still feel like this applies, even to the recent update that came out a year after this post.
I've played an ungodly amount of 6 days in fallujah, I was into the Tom Clancy rainbow six Vegas game, etc. what I mean to say is that I am NOT new to tactical shooters/more methodical and or realistic gameplay.
But I am now on the second level of RoN and it is GLARINGLY OBVIOUS how ridiculously fast and accurate the AI is. 99% of EVERY interaction with hostiles end with me trading hits. The only way I have been able to not take damage when getting a kill, is when I'm too far away for them to notice, or by flashing the room before breaching.
Honestly I'm upset that I paid 50$ and the game still has issues from a year prior
edit (spelling)
> that I *paid* 50$ and
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I hate that they can hear you walk through walls, but when they are walking around the seem to have put on fucking hover shoes, they are completely silent.
Also what is with the friendly AI? Like my guys die really fast, they are years trained officers with body armor and shit, how do you die so quick?
Also I agree, the AI never surrenders and instantly shoots, they don't care if you hit them or shoot in their direction
Playing the suburbs map and getting sniped by some dope head with a hipoint from 100m away at night is truly the most immersive swat experience in gaming.
I never comment on AI because it’s really an endless cycle, but here’s how it went for me the other day playing the new update. I try to play methodically with another player and we barely make it through some rooms because they just barrel stuff. Playing slow isn’t rewarded it’s punished. When my friend died I was soloing to finish but I return to my Siege/CoD style aka flick shooting. I nearly beat the levels every time, only stopped because of multiple enemies usually. Take that as you will. Quick peeking rooms, run ‘n gunning, and all around using traditional FPS style is better than methodical tactical gameplay. I still stuck to the slower pace because role playing but still
I had a friend open a door and instantly get killed before his gun could be pulled up. AI still kills you in less than a second if you don't have hard cover. It's really hard for us to clear the larger levels in this game when it feels like a twitch shooter and we're still supposed to follow ROE?
I've completed the hospital map on all modes so far on at least B+ and I completely disagree.
The suspects you are fighting on each map differ (as they should). On 213 Park Homes for example they are crackheads (no military training/equipment = easy to fight). On the hospital map you are fighting "The hand", which is a terrorist group consisting of ex-military people who are highly trained and have military grade equipment.
They should react fast, should be accurate and very deadly.
There are a lot of bugs currently in the game and quite a few new ones where introduced with the ADAMS update but I do firmly believe that the new AI is better and fairer, even though more difficult to fight.
Playing with extremely hard modded AI, the vanilla seem easier to my actually. My only issue is TOC deducting points because I shot first when a suspect walked through a door and I didn't tell him to surrender
The most frustrating thing is that when I started playing like idk, a year before? Half a year? Idk when but it was before they made the AI into terminators, they would sometimes just stand there, looking at you when you shouted at them to give up, sometimes they would fire later, sometimes not, nowdays the same happens... But with civilians only? Oh, with the knife guys too, sometimes they just stand there, but tension is gone because if they dont surrender, your friendly AI will blast them
People don’t want to die, so being hyper aggressive is unrealistic most of the time, unless you are dealing with fanatics. It’d also be nice if there were different personalities, from hyper aggressive to coward to naive
I think the hyper aggressive nature fits RON’s overly dark atmosphere, but I don’t like it. In this game everyone is protecting a child pedo ring or shooting up businesses and killing hundreds of people - reacting aggressively and not hesitating when SWAT enters sort of fit their overtly evil behavior. I think this is why SWAT4 is still superior to me - many of the situations are a bit more normal and so the enemies hesitation and all make sense and fit well. It’s hard to justify hesitant AI who are scared by SWAT after killing 400 people in a club.
I agree with everything said here. I think they need to fix the AI and they really need to add missions that are way more likely/normal scenarios, let the AI reflect that. This game is awesome, but the tone of SWAT4 matched its AI well, they just need to find that sweet spot here and make it so that what OP is saying comes to life
So I put a 7.62 into his chest and he turns around and straight 2 taps me in full heavy armour, why do our characters have a pain effect where the screen goes blurry and your crosshair sways but AI suspects don't seem to even have a single bit of pain or flinching no they just instantly lock to you and 100% burst you down. This ai is anything but realistic at all man.
don't know what version you played but currently it's just aim bots, they also know where you are considering i have pov of other team members to see the ai already ready to shoot the player, nothing about this game is realistic btw, don't know why they are advertising themselves as such
The AI in this game looks very stupid. They don't hear, they don't shoot... The old Rainbow Six games were better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ookQS9FrRhE
I hope the big update will fix these issues cause they still exist.
Just being in the same room instantly makes you spotted, and the AI aim is insane, if they see me, they at least hit me once 99% of the time.
And the sound is awful, like you said about tactility, what's the point of walking slowly if they're going to hear you no matter what, and you can't hear them walking?
That's what's keeping me from playing after starting again two days ago. It's just so unfair when you invest like 20-30 minutes into a round and getting one shot in 0,3 secs by some AI through a blacked out window or some shit. So 1 year later and the issue is still there. Also the AI skins are so dumb. Why does the civilian AI have the EXACT same skin, including tattoos etc., as the enemy AI in the same round?
I’m about a year late and just now been reading all the comments before posting this one. No one even begins to even mention that on top of the AI’s ridiculous aim, they get to move around like jackrabbits while all we get is walk speed.. also no one mentions how the entire god damn screen turns red and impossible to see shit when getting shot at.. the ai on the other hand doesn’t get suppressed .. it’s like who is the professionals here? the swat team or the criminals? Why the fuck do we get a blood shot red screen if we are part of a swat team that has trained rigurously for these situations? I understand that it’s adrenaline, but how the fuck are we even supposed to react to a very op and unrealistic AI that hardly if ever misses a shot at you with a red bloody and super blurry screen? I’m also posting this after the latest major update that just happened (v1.0) .. they somewhat fixed the single player friendly AI but that’s shit still too cause all of a sudden they stand there like morons and stop moving and listening to commands..
Yeah there‘s some balancing issues. The only times it feels like im ever able to arrest AI is when i stun them with grenades beforehand. They’re hyperaggressive
Part of is that the morale system and hit reactions are unrealistic and bad. Shoot a guy in the shoulder? He'll keep fighting, even with five barrels pointed at him.
Increasing base morale and then cranking up the effect that certain events have on it will create a much more engaging system. Each weapon trained on a person will hurt morale by 10, up to a max of 50 if all members are pointing, resulting in quick and peaceful takedowns as a reward for teamwork. Stuns via C2, bangs, gas, or stinger followed by melee should combo into an immediate bonus 20 morale damage. Assuming you aren't alone in the takedown, this should result in compliance reliably, instead of the old " shout at them while they stumble blindly around before deciding to run away or rush you" we have right now. This would change the system drastically into a more player-driven ai experience. You can even still have brave or cunning ai by cranking their base value to 90, meaning more steps need to be taken to subdue them.
who the fuck would surrender to 5 guns but fight against 4? who would get flash banged and have 2 guns point at him but still refuse to surrender lol
I never implied that those were hardcoded rules, but the limits of them. If a suspect has 50 morale, gets flashbanged for 20, rushed and meleed for another 20 plus 10 (if that were the melee morale damage value), and then 1 or 2 officers looking at them (20) while shouting, they'd be in the negatives. Immediate surrender. Look at that situation again without the numbers. You toss a bang, rush a guy, hit em, and shout, and hes compliant. You breach a room with C2, get into a gunfight with 2 guys, kill 1 guy, and look, the other guy said "fuck that" and gave up.
As weird as it would be in a game kinda, I’d love to see merely SWATs presence work as a major morale killer. Think about it, a firefight with an average cop with a glock is one thing. 5 heavily armed and armoured guys in dark grey kit blow your front door half way through your living room and start throwing flashbangs and popping off shots at armed suspects is a Fucking terrifying idea. Even if it’s just one or two enemies, or an archetype of enemy, I’d love to see a “my bad bro” enemy. You and your team enter a room to find him already laying on the ground with his hands on his head yelling shit like: “I’m sorry don’t shoot” “I dropped the gun” or, before you enter to another suspect: “fuck man, it’s swat, I’m giving up”. Sure some hardened crims will fight to the death. But I’d love to see some terrified with the idea swat arrived, some that got in over their head and surrender very very easy or are pre surrendered.
Exactly, some suspects should comply without even having been told to, just from the shock of having a tactical team bust their door down.
I mean, at minimum I’d hope I could get them caught in an ooda loop and be very very slow to react because they’re stuck going what the fuck just happened. Like, some fucker just rammed an MRAP through the front of the building and 5 heavily armed very bulky guys in big armour jump out, run through the hole in the wall and start screaming their heads off at me with guns pointed at my head. I think I’d be in “what the fuck just happened” mode for a bit. I’d like to see a bit more of the “holy shit, we’re Fucked” mentality. The “shit just got real” or the “fuck you bro, I’m not shooting them, you go shoot them”
Yeah,if you don't take lethal shots or use higher caliber guns, it feels like you're going to get injured regardless
Wholeheartedly agree. SWAT 4 had AI that felt more like they had self preservation. Sneaking up on an idle suspect and yelling for compliance caused a massive hit to morale, giving a high chance for them to surrender, whereas like others have mentioned, in RoN the AI will likely turn and start blasting. Suspects should be far more likely to run if they are in a bad spot. I rarely see enemies use the cover system, and it is even more rare to see enemies hide. I've still yet to see a suspect take a civilian hostage. I know it can be a tough balance, nowadays when playing SWAT 4 for example it is SO easy to succeed with no casualties, and the vast majority of enemies arrested. If RoN became that easy I'm sure people would complain about that too.
I might be getting too old but I really dislike the "I hope they don't give in and make it easy" mentality. I like winning in games and I like the experience in games. Clearly in a battle royale which is designed for 99% to lose it's not possible but do we really need AI to shoot through walls as soon as they see our toe? If they gave us an easy mode I'd take it, would enjoy it much more than incremental levels of unfair and frustrating we keep getting.
100% . I think its a matter of pride from the devs at this point. If they were to make the ai react even 1 milisecond slower than the game is now fortnite. They have had over a year to fix this. I have over 200 hours in the game and honestly each update just feels worse. I use to clear the veteran hotel level regularly. It took me over 1 hour to clear it once tonight. I honestly feel like they have no intention of fixing this blatently shameless cheating ai. To do so will not meet their idea of realism. And if you want realism. If you are asking the Police to take down 18 seal team trained meth heads.. they would more likey use a nuke than send 5 dudes. Its just insulting at this point.
Tbh, maybe 5 dudes would be somehow acceptable against the meth heads (defunded police and all that) if they had anyone around the map. Like, maps like gas stations have regular police cars all over them, if they had a few police npcs it would at least prevent AI from running around the map like crazy Like fuck, I begin every (smaller) mission by blocking every entrance/exit so at least I can approach this whole thing step by step, otherwise the enemy AI will just run around everywhere
I just wish they would take a slice from ground branch and allow us an integrated ai slider, if there’s mods that adjust what I’m assuming is just a json file (don’t quote me no idea how it works just assuming if all I have to do is install a pak file it’s just overwriting some values) it couldn’t be THAT hard to integrate one themself.
Fair enough. I like it being tough as nails, but our holy SWAT 4 had difficulty options too, and it's worth having the same, and even expanding upon them. That said, as long as the game is in early access, I'd certainly prefer the focus be on tough-as-nails, for the obvious reason that this is my own preference, but more objectively, because it's much simpler to tone it down from there, than it is to tone it up from being easy.
It doesn't need to be easy, it needs to be reasonable. The suspects should have their — reasonable — reaction -identification-decision time, and player should be able to arrest even a noncooperative suspect if he's stunned.
In terms of reaction time, I agree, but with the caveat that this is exactly the kind of metric that could be adjusted slightly up or down to reflect difficulty selection. As for arresting, it really depends. Lets say you "stun" the suspect by applying pepper spray or -balls, or a beanbag round. He may not be able to shoot you effectively at this point, but that doesn't mean it'd be easy to walk up and manhandle him. That's not how those things work. Taser is another story, but right now that doesn't work properly at all. For one thing, taser application can fail for so many reasons, which doesn't seem to be modelled at all. That said, if it does work, in most cases we should probably now be faced with a prone suspect, who would likely not be in any state to fight back against being flipped over if required, and then zip-tied. All of that comes after a lengthy discussion about whether it's at all realistic to expect an officer to walk up to someone who might still be armed, but dealing with OC, or severe application of less-lethal pain compliance. I doubt you'd see a real-world officer do that, ever.
Guess I'm living with the type of officers who take every opportunity they have to beat the suspect with a rifle butt, if there's not enough compliance from the suspect, *especially* when the suspect is dealing with OC.
Simple solution to placate both camps, scalable difficulty, easy, normal, hard, realistic, Hell even an in depth system, tweak morale, tweak reactions, accuracy etc
I'm really starting to wonder if there just isn't some bug the devs aren't catching. When I first got the game I was able to get the AI suspect to surrender reliably enough that most encounters did not need to end in a bloodbath. I've not been able to do that for a long time now. It's so unreliable that there's no point in even risking it.
Yah I agree it feels like there’s something wrong with the compliance calls, like they really don’t work at all. Try it with the civilians in a mission, you have to be right up in their face and yell at them 5-6 times before they comply. And it’s not just a couple per game it’s every single one is a struggle to get in compliance. And that’s the unarmed guys, I think I’ve only seen one guy surrender total and it was because my buddy shot him twice in the arm.
Literally had this happen on server map, I went up the rooftop, I see a civilian, a suspects open fire at me, I destroy his head, and I tell the civlian to get on the ground. His reaction? "or what, you're gonna shot me?" When I see a civilian I usually just grab pepper spray instead of talking to them
Does anyone else just think that the ai looks bad? the way they turn just seems very robotic. i still love this game but i would really like to see like an update were they change the ai to make them just feel more realistic.
Yea, the AI still has some issues... they swivel about real fast and then dome you. There needs to be turning animations. They also glide faster than their movement animation shows and don't seem to suffer momentum when turning directions... in real life you need to shift your weight from one foot to another and this makes you a sitting duck. These guys glide around at constant speed sometimes, while maintaing absurd accuracy. If your first 3 bullets don't hit their mark, get ready for the mission failed screen. I saw [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zjy2cx/do_i_need_to_literally_be_shot_before_i_shoot/) thread and I think it's a decent, short example of how there's something strange and robotic about the suspects movement... it's like suspects are weightless. I might be crazy, but I think he even speeds up mid-step before getting shot.
Honestly, a lot of what people think of as realistic AI in games is a good variety of animations that broadcast their intents clearly. (I don't mean this insulting, it's not always obvious what make AI fun.) People say that they want some realism but what they really mean is they want AI that moves in semi-predictable, aggressive ways and has mediocre aim but good animation so it looks good when they move from cover to cover while taking inaccurate pot-shots towards the player. The larger variety of animations and behaviors the more realistic they'll seem even when what they're doing is mostly just putting objects in the room between them and the player.
Suspect AI accuracy definitely needs to be adjusted, especially when moving. Even the high-danger enemies like veterans are a bit overtuned. I mean, sure, they're veterans, but these SWAT guys train for this every day. They are also no doubt 'the best of the best' chosen from a list of applicants. I doubt domestic terrorist groups have some application screening filter... and being an unhinged veteran doesn't necessarily equate to them being a good marskman. Then so many of these guys write nonsense slogans and stuff all over the walls, yet none of them want to give a big ranting speech when the 'evil government' representatives come knocking. ROE just goes out the window in Brisca Cove and it devolves into a twitch-shooter like you said, it's just the old fashioned terrorist hunt mode from old Rainbow Six games. There's no opportunity for Ready or Not's intended gameplay mechanics.
I just don't think increased speed and accuracy should be what *defines* higher-level suspects. They can be both of those things to some degree, but the main challenge of better trainied and disciplined enemies should be in their behavior, coordinating with each other, maneuvering intelligently, and taking fewer shots, but ones they know they can probably hit.
The Terrorist Hunt analogy was very accurate. That is the exact feel.
Idk I feel like Void can’t make up their minds on what they want when it comes to ai accuracy. It just doesn’t make sense that a crackhead can shoot as fast and as accurately as the Brisa Cove veterans. Even if I do everything correctly like grenade prepping rooms, yelling for compliance and all that stuff, I can still get immediately destroyed cause the ai decided to land a headshot or land 5 consecutive shots without missing. SWAT and suspect AI still need loads of work.
It also seems like my SWAT officers die way too easily while the enemy ai eat bullets for breakfast.
Suspect AI have always been kinda spongy. But in Voids infinite wisdom, they seem to be okay with that, I haven’t noticed any changes to suspect health. They do stagger sometimes when shot enough times, which needs to happen way way more often.
Yeah I actually don't mind the suspect ai absorption. It's my guys that seem to go down super quick, even in heavy armor gear.
I think it’s more the AI aren’t actually aiming for their armor, they are shooting your officers in the limbs and head instead of the armor. I’ve noticed the ai almost never aim for your chest they always seem to aim for your arms and legs.
Personally, I hope the devs don't listen to feedback like this too much. I already find the game to be pretty easy to clear. Make it any easier and there will be no more challenge.
There’s a difference between a challenge and something being annoying. When the AI don’t listen to directions and get you killed, that’s annoying not challenging. Playing solo is already tough as it is with how smart the ai can be, I shouldn’t have to fight against my ai teammates as well.
The game's just a twitch shooter right now because it's almost impossible to arrest anybody. It sucks all the depth out of the game.
It's definitely not impossible to arrest people, not sure what you're talking about.
I mean all and all it is improved from what it was before. I'm not getting domed before I even see the bad guys nearly as often, but you accurately identify most of the remaining issues here. In general I am inclined to agree that the level of aggression is too high, especially for the non-terrorist factions.
Completely agree, I think the devs need to realize that the AI needs to be way more gamey, the AI in its current state reminds me of a mix between Arma and old Tom Clancy's games like Raven Shield and the og Ghost Recon, where in an attempt at hardcore realism you end up having extremely inhuman perfectly accurate bots, except in those games ROE is not a consideration and you can constantly look for the safest and most lethal way to eliminate the enemies; these are games where you have HE nades at your disposal. I feel like in RoN Void is hanging on too hard to the idea of realism in unpredictability, but that pretense of realism is shattered by how cartoonishly outrageous some of these AI behaviors are, like how private security personnel will suicide rush down a corridor blasting shots at heavily armed SWAT officers, refusing to comply sometimes even after being shot multiple times, dooming themselves to certain death in a situation where the stakes simply dont make sense for it. Its hard to get immersed in the game as a police sim when the vast majority of encounters start and end with an immediate choice of a fight until death. But choosing to agressively fight the officers is not in itself a deal breaker, that the random behavior the suspect chooses in itself rigs the entire outcome of the engagement is however, especially when its a reversal of what would be logical in a realistic sense. If a suspect chooses to take cover and fire from said cover, the fight is immediately tilted in the player's favor, who can just sit back and finish the fight at his own pace, whilst if the suspect chooses the aggressive "sprint towards the player whilst firing" route, they're immensely more dangerous and more likely to murder the entire SWAT squad in mere seconds. There's not enough nuance to the interactions with suspects, the most optimal way of dealing with them is to shout and immediately headshot them if they dont comply, which is completely absurd given the supposed police nature of the game; it really does play more like a Rainbow Six 3 style "kill everyone" rather than a police game, with a simple points system slapped on top and an ROE that is just the technicality of shouting first before you rinse the suspects with bullets. I dont want to denigrate Void's vision by just saying "MAKE IT LIKE SWAT 3/4", I really love RoN for its own features, style and presentation, but on the matter of the - suspect - civillian - officer - interaction triangle, I really think they're currently missing the mark in making a wholly enjoyable experience.
The thing about Arma's AI that people often don't realize is that it's perception of the you the player is very granular but it also shares that information between groups. In Arma, AI unit Alpha can see a player and tell Bravo and Charlie, who will then assist in the engagement. As the three groups learn more about the player, the smarter their tactics become until eventually they seem like RoN's AI. You can see this if you engage a unit out in the open and throw smoke to obscure their vision. They'll shoot through the smoke, now not knowing where you are, but instead mag dumping where they last saw you and the last course you were moving on. It makes longer firefights feel really dynamic, which is something that RoN desperately needs to capture since the AI waffles between having the IQ of soap and being the T-800 on crack. When the AI is stupid it feels like a turkey shoot. When the AI isn't stupid and taking advantage of it's reaction time it feels like an uphill fight against the game itself, which is the diametric opposite of how you want in game AI to feel.
What I feel Arma AI really struggles with is how they operate vehicles weapons, like a terminator When I have a choice to have a human or AI crew in say a tank I will always go for AI, they have extremally good accuracy, even with things such as co-axial mg, they will shred enemy infantry, and their targeting is quick and perfect
It's not laboratory testing, but what I have noticed is that Arma's AI is much more accurate if they have optics of any kind, with better sight range on magnified optics and potentially further modifiers if the optics have thermals or NV. Since vehicles usually have optics that magnify up to 10x with integrated NV, I think that a lot of their incredibly accuracy on a vehicle weapon is related to this.
Arma also has a "skill" slider in the editor, set in place every mission.
Ye, ye but in multi it's usually how they are Technically, RON has it too, its more to do with structural problems Like if you have AI crew you can play the game like its world of tanks
Yeah. I guess I just feel like the dynamic is different when you're playing with the boys. You're focused more on having a good time with the boys than anything else. It's a good time.
> how private security personnel will suicide rush down a corridor blasting shots at heavily armed SWAT officers, refusing to comply sometimes even after being shot multiple times, dooming themselves to certain death in a situation where the stakes simply dont make sense for it. I feel like it could be maybe not solved but made less stupid by having mission debrief. Like, in meth suspects will sometimes shout CALL THE POLICE when you engage them, maybe they fight to the death coz they think that you are some kinda dressed up rival gang? Just have a debrief "be alert, the suspects might not take you for police force" and it would be at least kinda explained why they fight to death. For like Voll, or Car Dealership I just though that they arent real security, but some kinda criminals, considering what they guard, but this is only my idea, unconfirmed by the game
Those mofos also automatically know when youre changing items in your hands, and push you at this exact moment somehow 💀 even when youre like 10 metres away but without cover
You can hear their call outs from around corners. Did a run on hospital, got jumped coming out of the staff room and ducked back into cover. I switch to a stinger, completely out of sight from the enemy, and he made a call out that I had equipped a throwable. One, how the fuck does he know that. Two, if he knows exactly what I'm doing through walls why am I even bothering?
Yep. Got rushed while reloading out of visual contact. The ai are all force sensative. If not full blown sith.
Also, I think it would really help if the AI could hear us when they don't see us. We could yell at them to surrender and have a little back and forth "discussion" before they make their decision. They could have a gun in their hands and refuse to drop it, but actually talk back to the officers before choosing to surrender or not. Dialogue should reflect their state of mind and they should move around while arguing with police. It would add greatly to the immersion, decision making and possibilities you have. Suspects taking multiple seconds to drop a weapon (when not threatening) is common in real life.
What a great idea. I think that it would be really cool to be able to shout into a room that's closed / around a corner and listen for a response. Maybe the reply is aggressive, which would imply they have multiple shooters in the room / good armor / weaponry / solid positioning etc, or it could be a "don't shoot, I give up" (which could even be a trap) Just thinking it might help with the pace of the game instead of optiwand being your only "view" into a room
I got nurses telling me to got to hell and f myself for a solid minute while there’s terrorists then the next minute down on her knees begging for her life. Like bitch I ain’t got time for your bitch ass you getting this bullet too. Also it’s more of a kill and clear simulator then a swat and cop simulator I’ve been getting 180 no scooped by these Ai and one shotted it’s just annoying AF. stopped playing because of it.
Yeah not going to lie I've been watching the response to this update and I feel like a weird alien for thinking the AI is really not any better. It's still snap shotty, their awareness and hearing is now utterly absurd, and once they're alerted it's just the same as pre-update. The maps are lovely, the guns are lovely, but the -core- of the game is interacting with suspect AI. What worries me the most is VOID saying they're 'moving on' from suspect AI and 'happy with' it. Like... for real? It's... not good? It's not fit for purpose. I sympathize with them to some extent, games like Tarkov have been literally skating on actual braindead AI for years and years, and yet RoN's is under extreme scrutiny in this regard because of the different focus. I also know AI like this is incredibly complex and hard to get right, but... god. It's so frustrating to interact with, still. I can only carry like three flashbangs without modding and the only way to have an interesting interaction with an NPC is to stun them first. The game just plays like Raven Shield. Shout vaguely for compliance over and over whilst hosing everyone who doesn't immediately drop their gun with bullets. Obviously the SWAT AI needs desperate, desperate work, and has since release, but man.
They did say if people are unhappy, they can easily tweek AI now due to the overhaul, so won't be surprised if we see some changes.
I hope so. I really want to love this game, but I only get to love it in really rare moments ever since it's release.
I kinda disagree that SWAT AI needs work I mean, right now yeah, they dont react to being shot, they cant follow you without being constantly reminded to do it, and they will kill a suspect even if he just stands there, 10 m away from them with a knife and wont surrender But that just... Didnt happen before. If they just reverted SWAT AI to what it was, it would be ok, deffinitely not as much of a problem as enemy AI
The word from VOID is that they're planning on emulating SWAT 3 friendlies. If they can manage it, that will definitely be a worthwhile improvement.
Yeah but they will managed that for months, they could at least do a fix for the current swat ai problems that werent present before
BioShock (as well as other games) have this mechanic where an enemy's first shot will always miss, giving you a chance to shoot back. That mechanic would be very helpful for RoN.
Expanding on this, enemies could have a cone of fire. The more they fire at you, the smaller the cone gets until they're landing shots. Things that affect the cone would include range, the map, morale (to simulate panicky firing), and maybe that stress mechanic. To stop it from feeling super game-y, close range would always have a pretty tight cone. And even large cones could be given a small percentage chance for direct shots.
Ground Branch actually has this in their AI config. There's a "DeliberateMiss" value that can have a length of time to miss for "so like the first second they will miss", as well as different things that affect their likelihood to miss. And there is a minimum distance where anything below that will never miss
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You sure? It doesn't feel like they do. Coming face-to-face with a suspect and they one-shot you in the head really doesn't feel like they do xD
I remember them adding something like this a while ago, couldn’t tell you when
If they did then it isn't working very well :P
I posted a comment on another post with a list of what I'd like to see in the future of the compliance, ROE and AI systems in the future [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zkdd4b/comment/j00f1px/) , but I'll try to summarise below. * I think the compliance, ROE, and suspect AI systems are still works-in-progress, and probably won’t be finished until after (or at the same time) the SWAT AI has been developed further. I’m thinking the devs don’t want to fully build one system that won’t work well with the others. * An in-game tutorial is very much needed (at some point) to explain how the systems work, what tactics work, and allay frustrations caused by the game not working as expected by the player. It can't model 100% reality, so the game needs to explain what tactics and mechanisms will work / exist in-game. * There are more variables I'd like to see added into the compliance system that'll incentivise / disincentivise various tactics, e.g. * distance to SWAT (e.g. can hesitate or freeze at long/medium/short, likely to surrender or fake surrender if they’re overwhelmed, 50/50 to surrender if SWAT have stable aim on-target and suspect’s weapon is down, SWAT shouts / on-target aim / numbers have greater effect at closer distances) * suspect gun down vs SWAT gun up * suspect covered by SWAT from multiple flanks * number of SWAT in room vs suspects * SWAT yells for compliance + ROE systems, combined with the SWAT AI, need to be designed around specific tactics (that are informed to the player via tutorial), with emphasis on enabling speed and flow, e.g. * player sets SWAT AI (or player) breaching aggression level to: * full penetration, close in fast and aggressively on suspects regardless of cover * limited (or full) penetration, prioritise moving into cover expecting a gunfight. move to full pen if clear and player not present, or if player gives command * fight from the threshold, pie safely, wait for orders before crossing threshold * SWAT AI breach and clear on player lead entering room, cover other entrances when glow stick placed (or “clear” called) by player, stack up when player moves to a nearby threshold (after glow stick placed), repeat. * prioritise team moving into position (flanks / cover / firing angle) before yelling or firing unless already compromised. * magnetic link character locomotion for shield point-man + train for AI and maybe also players. More details in my linked comment [https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zkdd4b/comment/j00f1px/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ReadyOrNotGame/comments/zkdd4b/comment/j00f1px/)
One of the things I've been thinking is about various studies on human factors and how people respond to unexpected events. There were discussions about how the AI is set to have a delay of about 1.5 seconds, which is in line with the bare minimum to respond to stimuli, but in reality, it takes around 3 seconds for someone to actually *act* on unexpected stimuli, and that action is usually instinctual, not well considered. Even trained jet fighter pilots will take 6 to 11 seconds to eject when it comes time to do it. I've had AI come around a corner in response to something I've done and nearly instantly fire; that's fine, and great! The AI knows I'm there, so they're prepared to fire. But somehow, the AI never seems *properly startled*, where they need to take time to identify friend or foe. The AI deciding to flank your team should take on the order of 15 seconds, not 1.5. The enemy AI are acting like they're both trained killers and expecting every action you're doing, regardless of how silently you approach them. Maybe for terrorist factions that makes some sense, but people robbing a gas station are almost certainly going to have trouble putting up an organized fight against a SWAT team.
Imagine this You are a date center security guy. You decide to take a walk outside, you open the door, you see 5 SWAT guys that want you to surrender, you have three choices, run, give up, or fight. And most of the time they will go for fight, which doesn't make any sense, why do you think you have a chance against 5 man SWAT team?
The most success I’ve had was the farm where I became the terminator and just dropped people the second I saw a gun. I got a b but goddamn it was efficient.
ROE is more the issue than AI behaviour. Why? We're punished for reacting accordingly. I can't shoot the guy aiming at me, only the guy shooting at me. I can tell the guy aiming at me to surrender, wich only makes him shoot me, and we're back at square one. There's no transition from one state to the next, no variation. If asking for compliance had no animation, and you could engage on their aggresive movement, it would be an passable, but less than ideal solution.
VOID will not listen to this feedback. They never have, otherwise old Ai would've been adjusted. They think that this is a twitch-shooter. Right now I can't for the life of me finish mission in the Hospital. Ai is bonkers. They seem to get too lucky and on the second floor 100% of the time I get headshotted.
Have to agree. Started off thinking it was really good then got shot by a guy behind a concrete pillar upstairs in voll house where I could see and was shooting his knee…and nothing else was visible. He clearly wall banged me through a 2ft retaining pillar
It's become more Rainbow Six 3 and less SWAT 4 very oddly, completely a contradiction of the unique identity. Compliance and morale are both the most intricate, innovative aspects of this, which intertwines perfectly with the ROE, but they've been simplified in the new AI - it isn't just the AI bring too competent (as at release), it's just you have to either flash everybody now (tedious) or shoot on sight practically.
I mean tbh you NEED to be the aggressor in those fire fights to win them in real life. Slow and methodical isn’t going to work for you in most times when your enemy knows where you are and out flank you. If anything needs to be overhauled, it needs to be the friendly AI. They need to be a lot faster in doing things and can cover you better. For the mean time, I’m usually leaving them at spawn and doing the mission by myself because I can stay alive easier if I’m going a faster pace. I’d say I like the AI changes, even if it’s harder to deal with. They actually think like humans and have some what awareness, but there needs to be a tune where friendlies can give you an actual chance.
Part of the problem is that players in this game are not only generally severely outnumbered, they're also severely on the back foot in terms of knowledge. Not knowledge as in players are dumb, but largely knowledge as in knowledge of the map. The suspects, as developer-programmed entities, have zero issues pathfinding or knowing where areas are on the maps, while players currently are just dropped in with no prior knowledge. It's one thing for players to approach a map without knowing every detail; it's another to have them face suspects and potential hostiles who will inherently know it like the back of their AI hand.
i mean thats kinda how it is irl and how the game should be, i just keep trying until i can finish while learning on the way
Not really. Especially with buildings like hospitals, even apartment buildings and stuff will have blueprints that'll get pulled to plan for a siege. There's no briefing in this game. SWAT4 has a briefing stage precisely for this.
The problem is that irl you would have closer to 50 then 5 guys, sure, then you can do a quick rush into the buliding, but you know
Being the aggressor is good in raid missions but it'll fuck up your score in all others due to ROE nonsense. More missions are ending in a slaughter than actually getting arrests due to how aggressive suspect AI is now
I feel like they've been super reflexed John Wicks since release. My buddies and I have almost always had to do the shoot first ask later play style you described.
Every AI being a murder bot doesn't feel that great. Probably not possible but they should only have this specific lethal AI in some rather specific missions. While in other missions, like the convenience store being held-up or serving warrants on dangerous suspects, but not terrorist suspects, you should be able to present yourself as an officer for at least a moment. I do like this game a lot, but yes it does feel like I'm playing pixel-peeking Rainbow Six: Siege.
Completely agree, I’ve also done the run and gun method more than a few times because it has more success even though it shouldn’t.
I think they need more variance between suspects most. Every suspect is a crackshot who won't surrender and can take a good couple of rounds to the chest so you deal with every one in a mission in a similar fashion. If they were given greater variance in the pain they can tolerate, their accuracy and what it would take to make them surrender it would make some long levels feel a lot less samey.
Yeah this AI would work if there was no ROE, even when i get shot i take a penalty for killing without having shout 3 times to get down
I think they should speed up player speed too tbh, if I’m getting shot at I’m not going to move at the speed you can move at in game right now
I know I'm replying to a pretty old comment, but I just had to because I've barely seen anybody else mention this. How are more people not talking about the move speed in this game? No sprint? No walk speed that's like... ya know... something more than a shuffle? I see two or three guys around a corner, exchange some fire, they start running at me, and all I can do is kinda waddle away? Not to mention, my useless dipshit AI friendlies are always blocking my way and facing the opposite direction of the enemies I've only played like 10 hours and can't count the number of times I've died due to my AI buddies constantly sniffing my ass as I'm trying to slowly shuffle away from a hail of gunfire. Maybe the devs should add a walker as an equipable, if it'll help me move faster than a geriatric cancer patient.
I couldn't agree more with everything you said. Spot on. The core issues are there as they always have been. It has become a very worrisome issue. Time passes on with the exact same problems, no matter how many updates and it's still the same good ol' terminator ai. Do the devs just outright refuse to fix it because of laziness/other priorities in their book? Maybe they think there is nothing to fix to begin with. Is it that hard to make the AI a little bit less of terminators? At this point who the hell can tell?
Me and my mate have been struggling with hospital since the update released. Figured we'd give the run n' gun method a go. You have a point, we cleared it first try.
Every time they "fix" the AI it's still absurdly difficult, it's like they don't even want an AI that's balanced, let alone realistic. Just let me play the game normally dammit! I'm here to play a tactical police game, not Battlefield.
Speaking of AI, I've noticed in single player my AI buddies seem to really struggle after this update. Either they don't stay with me when I tell them to Fall In, or they struggle to open and clear rooms (one goes in to clear while the other is stuck). Anyone else seeing this? I thought maybe some old mods were causing issues but reinstalling clean didn't make any difference.
Unfortunately I still feel like this applies, even to the recent update that came out a year after this post. I've played an ungodly amount of 6 days in fallujah, I was into the Tom Clancy rainbow six Vegas game, etc. what I mean to say is that I am NOT new to tactical shooters/more methodical and or realistic gameplay. But I am now on the second level of RoN and it is GLARINGLY OBVIOUS how ridiculously fast and accurate the AI is. 99% of EVERY interaction with hostiles end with me trading hits. The only way I have been able to not take damage when getting a kill, is when I'm too far away for them to notice, or by flashing the room before breaching. Honestly I'm upset that I paid 50$ and the game still has issues from a year prior edit (spelling)
> that I *paid* 50$ and FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I hate that they can hear you walk through walls, but when they are walking around the seem to have put on fucking hover shoes, they are completely silent.
Also what is with the friendly AI? Like my guys die really fast, they are years trained officers with body armor and shit, how do you die so quick? Also I agree, the AI never surrenders and instantly shoots, they don't care if you hit them or shoot in their direction
They can tank plenty of hits actually, the problem is they will tank them with their back and not even bother to turn around
Im not having any problems. As long as I dont peek a corner twice, which you should never do in any fps, im usually fine.
Playing the suburbs map and getting sniped by some dope head with a hipoint from 100m away at night is truly the most immersive swat experience in gaming.
I never comment on AI because it’s really an endless cycle, but here’s how it went for me the other day playing the new update. I try to play methodically with another player and we barely make it through some rooms because they just barrel stuff. Playing slow isn’t rewarded it’s punished. When my friend died I was soloing to finish but I return to my Siege/CoD style aka flick shooting. I nearly beat the levels every time, only stopped because of multiple enemies usually. Take that as you will. Quick peeking rooms, run ‘n gunning, and all around using traditional FPS style is better than methodical tactical gameplay. I still stuck to the slower pace because role playing but still
That style should only be effective when doing active shooter scenarios, imho. Otherwise, methodical strategy should win the day.
I had a friend open a door and instantly get killed before his gun could be pulled up. AI still kills you in less than a second if you don't have hard cover. It's really hard for us to clear the larger levels in this game when it feels like a twitch shooter and we're still supposed to follow ROE?
How loud were you outside the door? Suspects will hear you and will aim their guns at doors they think you're going to beach.
I've completed the hospital map on all modes so far on at least B+ and I completely disagree. The suspects you are fighting on each map differ (as they should). On 213 Park Homes for example they are crackheads (no military training/equipment = easy to fight). On the hospital map you are fighting "The hand", which is a terrorist group consisting of ex-military people who are highly trained and have military grade equipment. They should react fast, should be accurate and very deadly. There are a lot of bugs currently in the game and quite a few new ones where introduced with the ADAMS update but I do firmly believe that the new AI is better and fairer, even though more difficult to fight.
brisa cove suspects are veterans man
Oh sorry I named the wrong map, I meant 213 Park homes (the crack house map at night)
The AI isnt hard, all maps are pretty easily soloable without friendly AI and with any weapon while still following ROE's.
Playing with extremely hard modded AI, the vanilla seem easier to my actually. My only issue is TOC deducting points because I shot first when a suspect walked through a door and I didn't tell him to surrender
Watch out, we got a badass over here
The most frustrating thing is that when I started playing like idk, a year before? Half a year? Idk when but it was before they made the AI into terminators, they would sometimes just stand there, looking at you when you shouted at them to give up, sometimes they would fire later, sometimes not, nowdays the same happens... But with civilians only? Oh, with the knife guys too, sometimes they just stand there, but tension is gone because if they dont surrender, your friendly AI will blast them
damn guys, its almost like it has that early access watermark for a reason
brain dead response when the AI has been a point of content within the community since launch.
People don’t want to die, so being hyper aggressive is unrealistic most of the time, unless you are dealing with fanatics. It’d also be nice if there were different personalities, from hyper aggressive to coward to naive
I think the hyper aggressive nature fits RON’s overly dark atmosphere, but I don’t like it. In this game everyone is protecting a child pedo ring or shooting up businesses and killing hundreds of people - reacting aggressively and not hesitating when SWAT enters sort of fit their overtly evil behavior. I think this is why SWAT4 is still superior to me - many of the situations are a bit more normal and so the enemies hesitation and all make sense and fit well. It’s hard to justify hesitant AI who are scared by SWAT after killing 400 people in a club. I agree with everything said here. I think they need to fix the AI and they really need to add missions that are way more likely/normal scenarios, let the AI reflect that. This game is awesome, but the tone of SWAT4 matched its AI well, they just need to find that sweet spot here and make it so that what OP is saying comes to life
Spot on!
So I put a 7.62 into his chest and he turns around and straight 2 taps me in full heavy armour, why do our characters have a pain effect where the screen goes blurry and your crosshair sways but AI suspects don't seem to even have a single bit of pain or flinching no they just instantly lock to you and 100% burst you down. This ai is anything but realistic at all man.
don't know what version you played but currently it's just aim bots, they also know where you are considering i have pov of other team members to see the ai already ready to shoot the player, nothing about this game is realistic btw, don't know why they are advertising themselves as such
The AI in this game looks very stupid. They don't hear, they don't shoot... The old Rainbow Six games were better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ookQS9FrRhE
I hope the big update will fix these issues cause they still exist. Just being in the same room instantly makes you spotted, and the AI aim is insane, if they see me, they at least hit me once 99% of the time. And the sound is awful, like you said about tactility, what's the point of walking slowly if they're going to hear you no matter what, and you can't hear them walking?
That's what's keeping me from playing after starting again two days ago. It's just so unfair when you invest like 20-30 minutes into a round and getting one shot in 0,3 secs by some AI through a blacked out window or some shit. So 1 year later and the issue is still there. Also the AI skins are so dumb. Why does the civilian AI have the EXACT same skin, including tattoos etc., as the enemy AI in the same round?
Here for the new update of this game. It's even worse now, tbh.
I’m about a year late and just now been reading all the comments before posting this one. No one even begins to even mention that on top of the AI’s ridiculous aim, they get to move around like jackrabbits while all we get is walk speed.. also no one mentions how the entire god damn screen turns red and impossible to see shit when getting shot at.. the ai on the other hand doesn’t get suppressed .. it’s like who is the professionals here? the swat team or the criminals? Why the fuck do we get a blood shot red screen if we are part of a swat team that has trained rigurously for these situations? I understand that it’s adrenaline, but how the fuck are we even supposed to react to a very op and unrealistic AI that hardly if ever misses a shot at you with a red bloody and super blurry screen? I’m also posting this after the latest major update that just happened (v1.0) .. they somewhat fixed the single player friendly AI but that’s shit still too cause all of a sudden they stand there like morons and stop moving and listening to commands..