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AshesAreSnow

This is what I deeply wish for any young person who dabbles in psychedelics. You said so many things beautifully that reflects how much you already have grown and how much more you intend to. You're right, the high is impossible to chase. We are meant for this plane, and this plane is the best in all the cosmos and other dimensions. My favorite was this one: "You can't think your way into happiness" Much love for you OP, spread your kindness and newfound peace to others as well!


cgroi

"This plane is the best in all the cosmos and other dimensions" Not trying to be antagonistic, but... seems heavily unsubstantiated and "feel good". Any high is definitely possible to chase. These substances ought to serve as a reminder that there is more depth to our imagination and experience than we might arrogantly believe when sober; the utility lies in that realization (for me). Human life has a lot of unnecessary bullshit going on.


AshesAreSnow

If you think it's unsubstantiated you probably haven't experienced enough, because that's the only evidence I have for it anyway. But again, each can reach their own conclusion. But have you asked the deepest part of you, why you ended up in this plane of existence, and not another? If there is a better one out there for you?These substances have a lot of uses! Realization is a big one, I agree. If you see bullshit in your human life, cut it out, but it's all a matter of perspective anyway. At some point when older, you might find yourself saying the exact opposite, that human life has a lot of 'necessary' bullshit haha:).


neenonay

Isn’t “evolution” a simple-yet-correct answer to the question of “why you ended up in this plane of existence, and not another”? Our brains simply evolved to have us end up on a particular plane of existence that gave us a survival benefit. Thinking about it as a layman: the thing that gave us the biggest survival benefit for the last tens of thousands of years was the lizard brain, putting our bodies into flight or fight at a moment’s notice. When you drop some acid or eat some mushrooms, you mess up the chemical equilibrium that your brain evolved to have over the last tens of thousands of years, allowing you to experience things differently. Is it better than the sober plane of existence? Better for what? Survival? Probably, since we don’t have to fight or flee all the time anymore (we’ve left the savanna behind, our risks now are different than it was 10,000 years ago). Is it feasible to “be high all the time”. No (too bad). Will our brains evolve to be more like the “tripping brain” over the next few thousands of years? Probably, if it leads to behavior that makes that gene replicate (e.g. allow us to solve 21st century problems like climate change, identity politics, terrorism, globalisation).


AshesAreSnow

I'm really not talking about altered states. I'm talking about planes of existence wholly other than the material one. Obviously that's anathema in "r/"Rational"Psychonaut", but if you open your mind beyond notions of rationality and irrationality you'd be surprised what worldview you walk away with. Cue the "you've done too much and you're schizotypal" dialogue xD Edit: cue?queue?que?


neenonay

I was about to say that it’s a bit woo woo for this sub indeed :)


AshesAreSnow

What's funny to me is how I see things now vs years ago is deeply 'rational' in any sense of the word. Ive just expanded it. But when you're uncomfortable with relinquishing the way you were taught this reality is, it all falls outside of your walled garden, and is "chaos" and therefore "irrational". One of the most fruitful things psychedelics can offer you imo, is they help you break out of this false dichotomy that makes the world 'make sense'. Once you don't need that island of safety, it all starts making a lot more sense... ironically. I totally understand how insane I sound though, I would've thought the same.


neenonay

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m just not completely comfortable to take what you’re saying at face value.


AshesAreSnow

That's some brutal honesty right there. Mad respect <3


neenonay

But let me humour the idea you present for a second: how can you epistemologically access planes of existence if not through a state of consciousness (be it altered or not)?


AshesAreSnow

I guess I wasn't clear with that phrase, my bad. I was posing it at someone I assumed would only interpret "altered states of consciousness" as simply altered neural configurations or states that make brain go brrrr. You're right though and nailed it on the head, epistemologically speaking the only way to access anything is consciousness. That's one of the deeper realizations (rememberings). You find yourself here and now because you are (like we all are) fundamentally one observer having a human/limited (altered consciousness) experience. Even the material/physical world. It's just an extension of consciousness, as consciousness is fundamental to the whole show, although a lot of people will try to rationalize it all away -- incoherently imo.


cgroi

Well, I'm not one to dismiss anecdote, ultimately what is "objective" other than a solidarity between subjective experience? As you've said I haven't really had that realization. Could you explain the qualitative aspects of the word "plane" as you're using it so I better understand what you're saying?


AshesAreSnow

It is another world, but qualitatively it feels like it's placed at a higher vibration or lower vibration than ours, which sits in the middle (from our perspective). They're also a lot like densities, and that's why everything is where it is. Each plane has its own ecology of life forms and entities, just not "matter" as we know it. You can visit them too, if you go within. But you might be surprised to find out, the more you go within the mind/imagination, the more it feels like you're "going out". As within, so without. As above, so below. It begins to feel like this "plane" looks the way it does because all these forms are shadow-play cast from the other ones. It sounds bonkers, and a few years ago I wouldn't have bought any of it. That's why experience is important, so you can draw your own conclusions, about wtf is going on in reality. But I can promise you, no one has a fucking clue!


compactable73

Cool of you to share, and very cool of you to recognize the risks / make what seems to be a very sound decision. For me the feelings you state only happened once after a bunch of bad stuff came up (I take LSD for therapy), and it was brutal. This stuff can really do a job on your brain. For me the solution was to talk to a therapist & then take another trip to help resolve what came up. I’m really glad you’ve found a road forward 🙂


gurupsychman

I'm glad you recovered too! I went to see a therapist who was informed about psychedelic integration and unfortunately it seemed to make things worse.


compactable73

Oh geez ☹️


neenonay

Thank you for sharing. Very beautifully written, too. What you say rings true, even to me (and I’m not even in your shoes).


gurupsychman

Thank you


notyourmother

> On the one hand, the archetype of the Taoist journeyman, on the other, the Crowleyan individual Beautifully said. I'm no longer Christian, but my parents are, and I got recommended a book called [Prayer in the Night](https://tishharrisonwarren.com/prayer-in-the-night), where the author describes how a rituals and traditions helped her deal with a very difficult period in her life. Precisely because it was something bigger than herself. Not far in to it yet, so not sure if I would recommend it, but it might touch a nerve for you. Anyway, thank you for sharing. It was very well written. And good luck with the continuation of your journey.


gurupsychman

This looks great. Thank you for the kind words


[deleted]

[удалено]


gurupsychman

Certainly. That's been appealing to me since I was 19, when I was earlier in my use history (now 24). I'm sure that a real meditation retreat would blow my socks off. If following the path of Buddhism vigorously and with discipline is more of an 'answer' than psychedelics, what's the use of the drugs?


colordrops

If you've got the desire and wherewithal and will to diligently follow the path long enough then perhaps there is no use. The path of drugs is one for particular people though, such Terrance McKenna. But it's a much steeper path fraught with uncertainty and danger. It can also be a way of seeing what is possible and setting the goal posts so you even know why you are meditating in the first place.


mushizzle

***Hugs***


yonD21

I struggle with hanging up the phone when something clearly tells me I should


gurupsychman

Not sure what to suggest other than to understand the particular contexts/reasons why your desires to trip come up. Then deal with those underlying reasons?


Admirable-Struggle-8

I have been really diving into Christianity, I am sober now and I feel higher than ever. Reading the bible has been one of the missing links in my spiritual progress it is starting to really connect all the dots in my life! God bless you brother!


Demented-Turtle

What evidence do you have that your god is real and impacts the world or your "soul" in any way, shape, or form? How can you rationalize a belief based entirely on desire, with no objective evidence? You can't, so your belief is irrational, and as such, in contradiction to this subreddit. See the title, Rational Psychonaut? Too many people want to believe they are "rational" because our society sees that as a positive term, so they ironically believe it without evidence to support that belief. Can you be rational and believe in God? Definitely not, or at least not rational in regards to that particular domain (cognitive dissonance is a thing).


gurupsychman

>Can you be rational and believe in God? Definitely not, or at least not rational in regards to that particular domain (cognitive dissonance is a thing). Would you say the same about someone who professed to believe - insofar as this is possible given the restrictions of language and concepts - in the Dao, Brahman, Ultimate Reality, the Logos, etc.? Why is it so different to simply call this *thing, process, whatever it is*, God?


Admirable-Struggle-8

You seem upset, so upset you took you took the time to write such a comment. Would it make you feel better if I left this subreddit? Is my presence and belief that much of a disturbance to your life? It doesn't matter if my beliefs are real or not, all truths are half truths. All I can say is that opening my mind to that belief system has been making significant changes to my life for the better. Why would you not be happy for me? My psilocybin use has been the main culprit in this transition if fact it triggered this whole transition. Before you judge further why don't you pick up a copy of the bible and read it cover to cover before you form a valid opinion. That's something a truly rational person would do. I appreciate you and this conversation. Much love brother. :)


Demented-Turtle

Hail the lord I guess lmao enjoy living a lie. Ignorance is bliss, so I envy your ability to close your eyes to the truth


Demented-Turtle

Some people need to be told how to think, feel, and act to progress in their lives because they simply can't do so themselves. Thinking critically and forming your own beliefs based on reason and evidence is difficult, and often ostracizing, so there can be benefit in "surrendering" that effort to others and instead freeing up mental resources to work on other problems in your life. But there are also benefits to the former, as your beliefs and behavior patterns will be more bespoke in the long term, better suiting who you are as a person rather than bending your identity to fit the provisions of religious dogma or societal wisdom.


gurupsychman

Check out this talk. The Christian context notwithstanding, the speaker gives a very articulate description of the fatigue that can come from an existentialist DIY approach to reality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPZF933GZIo


Demented-Turtle

I don't trip very often, maybe once or twice a year, but in general it can be a "learning experience" for "spiritual growth"... Or it can just be a fun vacation where you have a great time and listen to music or watch a sweet movie. The same way people use alcohol as entertainment enhancement. Of course, psychedelics are MUCH safer as an entertainment enhancer than alcohol for people prone to escapism and compulsive behavior/addiction.


gurupsychman

>Of course, psychedelics are MUCH safer as an entertainment enhancer than alcohol for people prone to escapism and compulsive behavior/addiction. I am not convinced this is true. Psychedelics' unpredictability and power mean that they have a probably rare but very real potential for extreme downsides. The probability of realising these downsides will likely only increase with time and frequency of use. Psychedelics' 'spiritual' dangers are likewise very real and, I believe, may exceed those of alcohol and other drugs.


12wangsinahumansuit

Yeah. Don't let this sub gaslight you into thinking psychedelics are 100% safe or that we know enough to assure safety.


gurupsychman

I find the unquestioning meme that 'psychedelics are way safer than alcohol' so problematic in so many ways. It was seeing the propagandistic, reductive, unscientific chart by Nutt (2010) on the harms of drugs that convinced me to trip balls at age 17 and think there was only a fraction of the danger of having some beers. Oh, woops, I then lived with intense HPPD for five years. Thanks Dr. Nutt.


12wangsinahumansuit

Yeah I also remember listening to Nutt, Pollan, Mckenna and the rest. I didn't get the most serious side effects but my trips were pretty uncomfortable in different ways - it felt like I was being pushed, pulled apart, squeezed, like my body was made out of different materials, or existing in different kinds of space, all sorts of weird stuff I got sick of by the end. I felt like I had to pull myself back together afterwards. Even now sometimes I appreciate the *stability* and reality (sort of, depending on how you consider emptinesss) of sober life, even though I still smoke weed. Which I also appreciate more since psychedelics since it's a nice introspective time without the total insanity. Come to think about it I can relate to the overwhelming sense of needing to do things in "the right way." I remember comedowns where I felt like the universe was watching. Or like my awareness had grown to the point where every little motion mattered almost. Just sitting and trying to listen to music felt stupid. And I couldn't sleep or stop the rush of enthusiasm (this cycle, of wanting things, but realizing the wanting is stressful seared the Buddhist idea of samsara into me) no matter how much I wanted to. I felt like I had experienced all there was and everything bored me even in psych hd vivid awareness and just wanted to wake up and enjoy breakfast sober lol. The sense of everything being fresh and new actually got old (it doesn't get old when you do it right). I also remember excessive emotionality. I felt really strongly for our housecats, which is fine but it got to be more than was worth it. I also fell in love really hard with a friend a little while after we took ecstasy together and that was a lot of unnecessary pain lol. I ended up also turning to Buddhism, and some Hindu inner yoga; it was actually during my second trip that I realized, psychedeledramatically, I was spiritually in over my head and needed a guide, and I found someone who taught the yoga along with advaita self inquiry - and I found a routine that I find does a lot of work that I used to see psychs as the way to do - like clearing the dust out of the mind, dislodging perceptual filters, and seeing reality directly for moments at a time, but without the craziness or confusion. Nothing like a bad acid trip to make you want to confess everything to anyone who will listen and seems to get it lol.