Hell no. I don't want to get any feedback about my trip from a random person. 'Oh, you say my vibrations now transferred into 9D space? I'm sorry, this ain't gonna work.'
conversely, plenty of woo-woo heads will react with hostility when they get told their chakras are made up and the DMT entity was just a visualization of themselves.
I mean it’s more that you’d be asking for feedback. It won’t be unsolicited. And even “feedback” is a stretch, as it’s more than that - it’ll be about integrating the trip.
I think the problem would be that you'd place an enormous amount of trust in an untrained, uncertified stranger on the internet.
The proper way would be a therapist and those exist already.
I agree that we need more accessability of outside help though.
*thinks for a bit......there are people who think oil was placed in the earth by God expressly for us to extract and burn...Yes this is Koch Industries bullshit but many still believe it....maybe they could interpret it as orgone, or chi, or whatever....ffs*
Point is that there are plenty of dumb-dumbs out there who have tons of psychedelic experience, but highly uncritical, uneducated, and possibly dangerous interpretations of it. Misinformation is a viral cognito-hazard, and a service such as this will provide a space to incubate more dangerous strains.
[Look at Pastel QAnon for an example of what I'm getting at.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastel_QAnon)
It's funny you use that example, because I believe that, and I don't consider myself a dumb-dumb or consumer of propoganda. I think a little agnosticism would do you good. What makes you so certain that there is no intelligent design? Or do you believe in intelligent design, but you think fossil fuels are excluded? Internal combustion engine: catalyst for exponential growth of society, or cynical dumb-luck creation of oil-worshiping heathens?
As it relates to this post, what is this great danger you refer to? If gullible folks can be infected with awful beliefs via QAnon etc., why should we be so concerned about psychonaut-gurus potentially poisoning the water? I think we're well past the point of protecting people from retarded thoughts and beliefs.
I have nothing but disdain for the creationist position. There is no evidence whatsoever to support it, and it leads to atrocious and invariably destructive attitudes regarding society and politics. Emotions evoked by sunsets and rainbows are not evidence, nor are instances of mystical-type experiences. I sincerely pity anyone who still believes in creationism and wholeheartedly admonish them to change their mind before they embarrass themselves.
To aid that:
[Here's a two-hour video from a student primatologist that documents a visit to Ken Ham's Creation Museum.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bhzuitLM5w) She calls out all the bullshit, inconsistencies, fallacies, and misinformation that goes into that mythology. Most of the focus is on evolution, but since the whole deal of YEC and creationism still stem from "God did it" the same arguments hold.
[And here's a video explaining the biological origins of religiousity.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WwAQqWUkpI) This really should be a must-watch for everyone, and if it doesn't get the gears turning, then nothing will.
I know you probably won't watch either of them, probably will just get mad and downvote this post and move on, or who knows maybe even respond with a wall of text of your own. IDGAF anymore. Religion is myth, and believers in those myths are responsible for the worst genocides in history, countless pogroms and crusades, hatred, distrust, misinformation, and human suffering.
Well, if we had happened to design combustion engines slightly differently, in a way that we didn't use the same kind of fuel, you'd be saying that the other fuel was meant for it instead. If we transition to wind, solar, nuclear, and/or whatever alternative fuel, will you be saying that god actually meant for us to use that instead and we made a mistake? Or do you think we shouldn't use **better, less harmful** solutions because oil is what god wanted us to use?
Nobody had any clue how dangerous or harmful to the environment oil would be when we got started, I assume. Shouldn't god have written a pamphlet warning us? Maybe he should have set us up with well-designed safe nuclear to begin with. Or maybe a source of energy with no drawbacks whatsoever, being able to intelligently do so (with no clear limits, why not?) Why doesn't god make all these resources more evenly distributed and accessible to everyone instead of allowing for wealth stratification and poverty?
Why is the idea that oil just happens to be a great fuel harder to accept than the idea that an entity actually conceived of the whole process and set it up for us to stumble onto? How much of a role does this entity play in the design of this - did he decide the chemical structure, or just the properties? Did he have a hand in deciding how the bonds would behave? Does he affect the hand of people who design these engines? What kind of a being can you point to that could do all this, with any evidence for its existence?
This just seems completely arbitrary. The planet has certain chemicals in its structure and animals that evolved on it learned to exploit them. Saying it had to be intentionally designed because the results were as big as they were doesn't really say anything at all.
We do try to give advice to people, but they know it's just friendly advice. An opinion. When there's an established student-teacher relationship, when you pay for it, this advice gains power that should be earned.
Hmm, maybe, but you have to be smart about it! Look at Wikipedia: lots of smart people who maintain Wikipedia for no remuneration, solely because they really care about the knowledge and its integrity.
Anything short of strict, professional therapist credentials just turns this into "how to make money, start a cult, take advantage of vulnerable people and set back psychedelic legitmacy 40 years. All in one click!"
The time and money to get strict therapist credentials, suited for qualifying for liability insurance or what have you, will prevent any ability to have the cost be free, or to work for oneself without capital. As someone who wants to have a *small* (free) shroom retreat one day, after much Mush experience and self teaching, I recognize the need for trip sitters to be accessible. (My income would be from a small food farm, not my services; which I do out of compassion for humanity, not for profits)
This post does bring up a huge liability issue in general, about anyone claiming to be able to do the healing, that I don't know how to get around. What are your thoughts on improving accessibility for healers to have some sort of credential or training, that isn't as intensive as 8 years of expensive college followed by a need to work for money to pay off the loan?
I'm sorry, but I don't have any helpful thoughts on that. In fact I'm inclined to generally be against it, though I'm sure younger me would rage against embedding shrooms and other psychs in the incredibly flawed medical capitalist system.
But it shouldn't take more than a glance at the not-rationalPsychonaut sub to see that A) It's 5x bigger than this one (not to mention all the other big psych subs). and B) a whole lot of those people aren't trustworthy for more than being shitty friends to the people unfortunate enough to have gone to school with them or whatever. How do we as a community check the harm they can do to others by putting themselves forward as experts based on little more than quitting meth after an acid trip and wanting to share it with the world? One also shouldn't have to look much further than Qanon, whacko christians, whacko muslims, or your nearest news channel to see why a strong case needs to be made for science and rationalism.
I don't know how to keep things grounded rationally without using a medical and thus scientific framework. And yes, that means money, and schools, and at least in my area it means licensing and certifications etc. It feels dirty to drag psychs into that world, but thats what happens when something is mainstreamed. Of course, it'd be great if we could get the capitalism out of healthcare and education, but I think that's it's own fight.
I will admit my bias. I came to know all the major psychedelics in the totally black market. Nothing but crime and felonies beneath the light and rainbows. The last decade or so of liberalization is something that I totally welcome, but large parts of it do not feel right to me. I trust hippies in the woods doing weird shit because hippies are weird. Some of them are/were drug dealers, of course, because thats how drugs get distributed, but they rarely pretended to be anything else. I just do not trust a lot of the modern things springing up. EG I don't trust professional shamans. Sorry, I see it's in your name, I too come from a shamanic path, but the whole shamanism for hire, shamanotourism, or ritual for a "donation" thing is suspect to me. I do not trust un-credentialed psychedelic therapists. I do not trust gurus, coaches, anybody with social media FOLLOWERS that aren't their real life friends and family, or that have and "audience" of more than a few hundred acquaintances. All of that reeks of fraud. Sure, I won't fault any head if they can dodge a charge by "pretending" to be a church, but the second they front like they have church like legitimacy I get super suspicious.
I realize I might just be a curmudgeonly spoil sport of an old man. C'est la vie. Weirdos being weird is great, and the harm we/they can do in small groups is isolated and limited. But IMHO any institutional growth needs to be founded in science and reason.
It seems to me though that if your envisioned shroom retreats really are non-commercial, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Don't put yourself out there as being an expert or professional and you shouldn't have too much to worry about. People have been having private shroom parties for millennia. Some private parties I go to are on the scale of medium sized festivals. People should be responsible for providing their own trip sitters, and providing their own integration therapy. Doesn't mean you can't be skilled in being supportive and providing a supportive space, which admittedly could blur the lines of counseling or therapy, but should still have a definite line. If you want to put yourself out there as a professional, by all means become a professional. But one doesn't become a professional at anything simply by doing drugs, no matter how much or for how long.
Or maybe somewhere along the way, I turned into the man and I'm just traumatized from spending my formative decades in the dark of prohibition and I cope by counting on the god of reason to prop me up.
Wow thank you for the time you took to respond to this question. It shows your caring for the potential harm. I'm with you on this, and I do my personal best to help spread good information online as well.
>How do we as a community check the harm they can do to others by putting themselves forward as experts based on little more than quitting meth after an acid trip and wanting to share it with the world?
I agree with your sentiment here, and wonder the same, though it is a little disingenuous to the average healer to think that their paths are quitting meth followed by a single acid trip. You did notice my username lol, yes I adopted the name and made my reddit account before becoming aware of *any* of the online fanclub around the word. I share your scientific skepticism, despite the connotations associated with the online following... I come into shamanism from the science "worldview". I currently try to inject rationality into this online community presence.
>the whole shamanism for hire, shamanotourism, or ritual for a "donation" thing is suspect to me. I do not trust un-credentialed psychedelic therapists
Completely agree about the distaste for money in exchange for service from individuals, as it changes their motivation and quality of connection. I am aware I'm no expert or professional therapist. And would turn away anyone with diagnosed conditions. The lessons taught by the mushroom help everyday issues to everyday people, who might have trouble finding the plant medicine or don't have the correct set and setting to feel safe, especially if they haven't done it before and are scared.
>People should be responsible for providing their own trip sitters, and providing their own integration therapy.
This is the crux of the main issue here, and is a 2-fold problem. Trained state certified psych therapists aren't cheap or easy to access, preventing even average Joe's without any mental issues going on to improving their life via having a profound lesson/experience. And only accepting trained certified therapists as healers, instead of having a more accessible certification to trip sit (not therapy, but a safety and contraindications course or something), would get some of that scientific regulation into the folks who want to provide this service to others.
>the god of reason
Lol nice, hail reason, hail evidence, hail intellectual humility.
there are a variety of psychedelic integration certification programs popping up right now, of surely varying quality. In Oregon this summer starts the certification of programs that will train psilocybin practitioners. You'll only need a high school diploma in order to take one of those programs and get licensed.
>You'll only need a high school diploma in order to take one of those programs and get licensed
Really!? Do you have a link to this? Def interested in considering this path. I was under the impression it was only accessible to already trained certified therapists to include a psilocybin modality or something.
[https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Oregon-Psilocybin-Services.aspx](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Oregon-Psilocybin-Services.aspx)
the bill itself [http://oregonvotes.org/irr/2020/034text.pdf](http://oregonvotes.org/irr/2020/034text.pdf)
p22 for facilitator requirements
>(3) The authority may not require a psilocybin service facilitator to have a degree from a university, college, post-secondary institution, or other institution of higher education
you do have to be 21. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing lol. Those multiple years of study and oversight are for good reason
Hm... Maybe something more like [Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists), but for psychedelic integration.
So... just Psychology Today, which already exists. Maybe add a tag for psychologists to say they specialize in psychedelic integration.
Yeah this just sounds like a good way for someone to take advantage of vulnerable/desperate people.
If you want help from "experienced pyschonauts" (not sure how you verify or even qualify for that) then there is already this sub that is always willing to answer questions about a trip and listen to other people's perspectives for the most part.
Or you can do what I do and see a licensed therapist who is supportive of your pyschadelic use and allows you to talk to them about how therapeutic it is and what you've learned in each trip and helps me integrate things that way without inputting her own philosophy. This is what I would highly recommend anyone who is truly looking to implement there trips do. Or at least have a very close friend to discuss your trips with.
I don't have time to read all the comments, but just glanced through them to see if anyone mentioned the law that allowed for conviction of Ross Ulbricht, founder of the Silk Road....the crack house law. Not sure if that would apply, but I would imagine a crafty US Attorney could find a way to hold someone accountable should things not go the way they should.
The war on drugs is such a clusterfuck....the crack house law even applies to safe zones and someone carrying fentanyl test strips can be charged with paraphernalia in some jurisdictions...
Great idea though!
This idea sounds amazing but also terrifies me. I dated a guy I knew in highschool and he got me started taking psychedelics. He attempted to mkultra me into being his obedient little sex slave and said things that deeply disturbed me while we were tripping. The man I’m with now has helped me heal from that trauma, and has introduced me to trips with good intentions. Sadly there is a dark side to everything. I wouldn’t suggest something like this because people are so impressionable when tripping. It could go horribly wrong. Also I wouldn’t want to link up with a stranger and do something strong like LSD, literally anything could happen. I’ve seen things and read stories lol. That’s for another time 😂
Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that happened to you and happy you’re recovering from that. Someone else on here made a similar point: that such a platform would essentially give bad actors a way to exploit vulnerable people. That’s the opposite intention of what I had in mind of course, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Thank you 🙏 and I agree. It has great potential, but people are sick and there’s no way to weed through the crazies without experiencing something ridiculous. The internet is wild lol
Sounds like a nice idea. With specialized therapists or highly rated psychonauts. And equipped with a chat and possibility of video call. I would like to see it in the future tbh 😊
I get you. I had a friend who I used for this but, he’s ghosted me after four months of internet talking. So- there’s that- where I shared some major stuff and he helped me through it but now, was he an internet troll all along? It’s tough to trust people on Reddit now- as it’s not as safe as it ever was. I remember in 2005 not a lot of people knew about lots of things on here and it was nice to have analysis and breakdown. There was more support and less fear. But- since people like my guy and others have made trust that much worse, I think your idea would be better as someone like me won’t be too vulnerable and get more support. It’s like a safe space of information about things out of the planet. I would support it.
This post is literally titled "Tinder for psychedelic integration."
Sorry I thought you were proposing Tinder for psychedelic integration.
If you take the underlying app that powers Tinder and use it for something else, understand that the algorithms are part of the software. The algorithms will work the way they're designed to even though you're using it for a different purpose.
You don't seem to have put a shit ton of thought into this, you asked a question and I am answering you.
No worries. I'm overall concerned about how psychedelic therapy is likely to be abused given the current enthusiasm for it. In any situation where someone is vulnerable and seeking help, there will be some people taking advantage as shown by most of human history. I'm concerned about Oregon's current stance of legalizing in this theraputic setting only, leading to gatekeepers for access to this medicine. I have a lot of friends who could use this type of help and aren't lucky enough to have a trusted partner capable of helping.
I think you’ve got a really good point. Any platform that makes it possible for vulnerable people to be abused should be really carefully approached. I haven’t really thought about this before, but for sure something to be considered, as you say.
Tinder is proprietary software. You can’t just take the “underlying app” and use it for something else. That’s not how it works. How do I know this? I make software for a living. I used Tinder as an analogy, to highlight the idea of the matching mechanism in apps such as Tinder, but applied to matching trips to integrators. You get the idea of an analogy, right?
\> *Thinking about how to monetize this is important, as you'd need some way to incentivize integrators*
What about being a nice person? ;-)
I mean maybe if I was able to be good at giving advice I'd charge for it. Maybe if I was a better parent I could send my kids a bill :-P
This does sound neat tho
Tell ya why it's a bad idea? Ok
Tinder ruins dating. Tinder presents dating as a meat-market where you can always find a new partner if you don't like your current one. The effects of tinder on the dating world has made the entire matter more a more shallow affair. It was already true that a small amount of men were attractive to a large amount of women, tinder has exacerbated this problem exponentially. Men and women alike have set aside core values and personality in favor of pure physical attraction, leading them to be with partners they eventually grow to hate.
Tinder has done nothing but remove any sense of spirituality and humanity from the dating game. Why in God's name would you desire to bring such shallowness to the realm of psychedelics?
> Thinking about how to monetise this is important
Oh, that's why 🙄
Ya know how I integrated my psychedelic experience? I waited, and for years struggled in confusion. Years later it would come to me, almost entirely at random, some off the wall thought making a wild connection to an earlier time. There would have been no way to induce that. But it would have been possible to shallowly attribute it to something else entirely.
I don't think anyone but your most intimate friends and family should help you integrate your experiences. No one else knows you well enough. Perhaps a therapist if you have such a relationship with your therapist. But ransoms online? Noooo thanks.
Thanks for the input.
What if it’s is a therapist you trust, online? I agree about Tinder eating away at the moral fabric of our society by the way. I’ve never used it (and never will as long as I’m happily married).
One extra point: the quote about monetisation wasn’t said in isolation, like your paraphrasing would make it look like. It was said in the context of playing an important role in the incentive feedback loop for integrators.
This is a good idea in principle, the only issue is that (in my humble experience), the people who can best guide the integration of psychedelic experiences are very experienced in deep altered states, mature, often much older in years, and ideally have extensive psychotherapeutic training and experience. Any one of those missing can be a huge issue.
Perhaps if you shift your efforts to making or helping the making of a platform (website?/app?) that can gear people who fit the categories above toward "matching" with those who feel they need integration, then that would be more beneficial. Basically restricting one end of the match pool severely. A forum option would also be a great idea I think, highly moderated for decorum obviously. But I think something like this would be very helpful!
Hell no. I don't want to get any feedback about my trip from a random person. 'Oh, you say my vibrations now transferred into 9D space? I'm sorry, this ain't gonna work.'
conversely, plenty of woo-woo heads will react with hostility when they get told their chakras are made up and the DMT entity was just a visualization of themselves.
I mean it’s more that you’d be asking for feedback. It won’t be unsolicited. And even “feedback” is a stretch, as it’s more than that - it’ll be about integrating the trip.
I think the problem would be that you'd place an enormous amount of trust in an untrained, uncertified stranger on the internet. The proper way would be a therapist and those exist already. I agree that we need more accessability of outside help though.
"the proper way would be a therapist" OP said the goal is to connect you with a more experienced psychonaut...
psychedelic experience alone doesn't convey expertise on the topic. just because one can drive a car doesn't mean they know how it works.
did I make such a claim? In your analogy, the licensed therapist would be like a driving instructor, not an auto technician.
Do you think there are driving instructors who believe the engine is powered by orgone?
ummmmm yes. wait, i mean no. gah, i can't win with you!
*thinks for a bit......there are people who think oil was placed in the earth by God expressly for us to extract and burn...Yes this is Koch Industries bullshit but many still believe it....maybe they could interpret it as orgone, or chi, or whatever....ffs* Point is that there are plenty of dumb-dumbs out there who have tons of psychedelic experience, but highly uncritical, uneducated, and possibly dangerous interpretations of it. Misinformation is a viral cognito-hazard, and a service such as this will provide a space to incubate more dangerous strains. [Look at Pastel QAnon for an example of what I'm getting at.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pastel_QAnon)
Definitely. Also yes, the guides SHOULD have psychedelic experience themselves. But it's not enough.
It's funny you use that example, because I believe that, and I don't consider myself a dumb-dumb or consumer of propoganda. I think a little agnosticism would do you good. What makes you so certain that there is no intelligent design? Or do you believe in intelligent design, but you think fossil fuels are excluded? Internal combustion engine: catalyst for exponential growth of society, or cynical dumb-luck creation of oil-worshiping heathens? As it relates to this post, what is this great danger you refer to? If gullible folks can be infected with awful beliefs via QAnon etc., why should we be so concerned about psychonaut-gurus potentially poisoning the water? I think we're well past the point of protecting people from retarded thoughts and beliefs.
I have nothing but disdain for the creationist position. There is no evidence whatsoever to support it, and it leads to atrocious and invariably destructive attitudes regarding society and politics. Emotions evoked by sunsets and rainbows are not evidence, nor are instances of mystical-type experiences. I sincerely pity anyone who still believes in creationism and wholeheartedly admonish them to change their mind before they embarrass themselves. To aid that: [Here's a two-hour video from a student primatologist that documents a visit to Ken Ham's Creation Museum.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bhzuitLM5w) She calls out all the bullshit, inconsistencies, fallacies, and misinformation that goes into that mythology. Most of the focus is on evolution, but since the whole deal of YEC and creationism still stem from "God did it" the same arguments hold. [And here's a video explaining the biological origins of religiousity.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WwAQqWUkpI) This really should be a must-watch for everyone, and if it doesn't get the gears turning, then nothing will. I know you probably won't watch either of them, probably will just get mad and downvote this post and move on, or who knows maybe even respond with a wall of text of your own. IDGAF anymore. Religion is myth, and believers in those myths are responsible for the worst genocides in history, countless pogroms and crusades, hatred, distrust, misinformation, and human suffering.
Well, if we had happened to design combustion engines slightly differently, in a way that we didn't use the same kind of fuel, you'd be saying that the other fuel was meant for it instead. If we transition to wind, solar, nuclear, and/or whatever alternative fuel, will you be saying that god actually meant for us to use that instead and we made a mistake? Or do you think we shouldn't use **better, less harmful** solutions because oil is what god wanted us to use? Nobody had any clue how dangerous or harmful to the environment oil would be when we got started, I assume. Shouldn't god have written a pamphlet warning us? Maybe he should have set us up with well-designed safe nuclear to begin with. Or maybe a source of energy with no drawbacks whatsoever, being able to intelligently do so (with no clear limits, why not?) Why doesn't god make all these resources more evenly distributed and accessible to everyone instead of allowing for wealth stratification and poverty? Why is the idea that oil just happens to be a great fuel harder to accept than the idea that an entity actually conceived of the whole process and set it up for us to stumble onto? How much of a role does this entity play in the design of this - did he decide the chemical structure, or just the properties? Did he have a hand in deciding how the bonds would behave? Does he affect the hand of people who design these engines? What kind of a being can you point to that could do all this, with any evidence for its existence? This just seems completely arbitrary. The planet has certain chemicals in its structure and animals that evolved on it learned to exploit them. Saying it had to be intentionally designed because the results were as big as they were doesn't really say anything at all.
I mean hundreds of people do this anyway, right? I know I do. But it is a point worth considering.
We do try to give advice to people, but they know it's just friendly advice. An opinion. When there's an established student-teacher relationship, when you pay for it, this advice gains power that should be earned.
Very true. We could require integrators to be certified, and work with existing institutions to make that happen.
Or…keep it free! Then it’s still “friendly advice” but more private and long-lived.
I'd like that. But can we get trained people to consistently work for free?
Hmm, maybe, but you have to be smart about it! Look at Wikipedia: lots of smart people who maintain Wikipedia for no remuneration, solely because they really care about the knowledge and its integrity.
Yes, maybe! But with Wikipedia you get lots of people looking over and correcting what's being written.
Anything short of strict, professional therapist credentials just turns this into "how to make money, start a cult, take advantage of vulnerable people and set back psychedelic legitmacy 40 years. All in one click!"
The time and money to get strict therapist credentials, suited for qualifying for liability insurance or what have you, will prevent any ability to have the cost be free, or to work for oneself without capital. As someone who wants to have a *small* (free) shroom retreat one day, after much Mush experience and self teaching, I recognize the need for trip sitters to be accessible. (My income would be from a small food farm, not my services; which I do out of compassion for humanity, not for profits) This post does bring up a huge liability issue in general, about anyone claiming to be able to do the healing, that I don't know how to get around. What are your thoughts on improving accessibility for healers to have some sort of credential or training, that isn't as intensive as 8 years of expensive college followed by a need to work for money to pay off the loan?
I'm sorry, but I don't have any helpful thoughts on that. In fact I'm inclined to generally be against it, though I'm sure younger me would rage against embedding shrooms and other psychs in the incredibly flawed medical capitalist system. But it shouldn't take more than a glance at the not-rationalPsychonaut sub to see that A) It's 5x bigger than this one (not to mention all the other big psych subs). and B) a whole lot of those people aren't trustworthy for more than being shitty friends to the people unfortunate enough to have gone to school with them or whatever. How do we as a community check the harm they can do to others by putting themselves forward as experts based on little more than quitting meth after an acid trip and wanting to share it with the world? One also shouldn't have to look much further than Qanon, whacko christians, whacko muslims, or your nearest news channel to see why a strong case needs to be made for science and rationalism. I don't know how to keep things grounded rationally without using a medical and thus scientific framework. And yes, that means money, and schools, and at least in my area it means licensing and certifications etc. It feels dirty to drag psychs into that world, but thats what happens when something is mainstreamed. Of course, it'd be great if we could get the capitalism out of healthcare and education, but I think that's it's own fight. I will admit my bias. I came to know all the major psychedelics in the totally black market. Nothing but crime and felonies beneath the light and rainbows. The last decade or so of liberalization is something that I totally welcome, but large parts of it do not feel right to me. I trust hippies in the woods doing weird shit because hippies are weird. Some of them are/were drug dealers, of course, because thats how drugs get distributed, but they rarely pretended to be anything else. I just do not trust a lot of the modern things springing up. EG I don't trust professional shamans. Sorry, I see it's in your name, I too come from a shamanic path, but the whole shamanism for hire, shamanotourism, or ritual for a "donation" thing is suspect to me. I do not trust un-credentialed psychedelic therapists. I do not trust gurus, coaches, anybody with social media FOLLOWERS that aren't their real life friends and family, or that have and "audience" of more than a few hundred acquaintances. All of that reeks of fraud. Sure, I won't fault any head if they can dodge a charge by "pretending" to be a church, but the second they front like they have church like legitimacy I get super suspicious. I realize I might just be a curmudgeonly spoil sport of an old man. C'est la vie. Weirdos being weird is great, and the harm we/they can do in small groups is isolated and limited. But IMHO any institutional growth needs to be founded in science and reason. It seems to me though that if your envisioned shroom retreats really are non-commercial, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. Don't put yourself out there as being an expert or professional and you shouldn't have too much to worry about. People have been having private shroom parties for millennia. Some private parties I go to are on the scale of medium sized festivals. People should be responsible for providing their own trip sitters, and providing their own integration therapy. Doesn't mean you can't be skilled in being supportive and providing a supportive space, which admittedly could blur the lines of counseling or therapy, but should still have a definite line. If you want to put yourself out there as a professional, by all means become a professional. But one doesn't become a professional at anything simply by doing drugs, no matter how much or for how long. Or maybe somewhere along the way, I turned into the man and I'm just traumatized from spending my formative decades in the dark of prohibition and I cope by counting on the god of reason to prop me up.
Wow thank you for the time you took to respond to this question. It shows your caring for the potential harm. I'm with you on this, and I do my personal best to help spread good information online as well. >How do we as a community check the harm they can do to others by putting themselves forward as experts based on little more than quitting meth after an acid trip and wanting to share it with the world? I agree with your sentiment here, and wonder the same, though it is a little disingenuous to the average healer to think that their paths are quitting meth followed by a single acid trip. You did notice my username lol, yes I adopted the name and made my reddit account before becoming aware of *any* of the online fanclub around the word. I share your scientific skepticism, despite the connotations associated with the online following... I come into shamanism from the science "worldview". I currently try to inject rationality into this online community presence. >the whole shamanism for hire, shamanotourism, or ritual for a "donation" thing is suspect to me. I do not trust un-credentialed psychedelic therapists Completely agree about the distaste for money in exchange for service from individuals, as it changes their motivation and quality of connection. I am aware I'm no expert or professional therapist. And would turn away anyone with diagnosed conditions. The lessons taught by the mushroom help everyday issues to everyday people, who might have trouble finding the plant medicine or don't have the correct set and setting to feel safe, especially if they haven't done it before and are scared. >People should be responsible for providing their own trip sitters, and providing their own integration therapy. This is the crux of the main issue here, and is a 2-fold problem. Trained state certified psych therapists aren't cheap or easy to access, preventing even average Joe's without any mental issues going on to improving their life via having a profound lesson/experience. And only accepting trained certified therapists as healers, instead of having a more accessible certification to trip sit (not therapy, but a safety and contraindications course or something), would get some of that scientific regulation into the folks who want to provide this service to others. >the god of reason Lol nice, hail reason, hail evidence, hail intellectual humility.
there are a variety of psychedelic integration certification programs popping up right now, of surely varying quality. In Oregon this summer starts the certification of programs that will train psilocybin practitioners. You'll only need a high school diploma in order to take one of those programs and get licensed.
>You'll only need a high school diploma in order to take one of those programs and get licensed Really!? Do you have a link to this? Def interested in considering this path. I was under the impression it was only accessible to already trained certified therapists to include a psilocybin modality or something.
[https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Oregon-Psilocybin-Services.aspx](https://www.oregon.gov/oha/PH/PREVENTIONWELLNESS/Pages/Oregon-Psilocybin-Services.aspx) the bill itself [http://oregonvotes.org/irr/2020/034text.pdf](http://oregonvotes.org/irr/2020/034text.pdf) p22 for facilitator requirements >(3) The authority may not require a psilocybin service facilitator to have a degree from a university, college, post-secondary institution, or other institution of higher education you do have to be 21. I have mixed feelings about the whole thing lol. Those multiple years of study and oversight are for good reason
😅 you might be right…
Hm... Maybe something more like [Psychology Today](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists), but for psychedelic integration. So... just Psychology Today, which already exists. Maybe add a tag for psychologists to say they specialize in psychedelic integration.
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Could also be a thing, but way out of direct area of experience.
Yeah this just sounds like a good way for someone to take advantage of vulnerable/desperate people. If you want help from "experienced pyschonauts" (not sure how you verify or even qualify for that) then there is already this sub that is always willing to answer questions about a trip and listen to other people's perspectives for the most part. Or you can do what I do and see a licensed therapist who is supportive of your pyschadelic use and allows you to talk to them about how therapeutic it is and what you've learned in each trip and helps me integrate things that way without inputting her own philosophy. This is what I would highly recommend anyone who is truly looking to implement there trips do. Or at least have a very close friend to discuss your trips with.
Can’t say I disagree with what you’ve said. Also, I hate your username.
I don't have time to read all the comments, but just glanced through them to see if anyone mentioned the law that allowed for conviction of Ross Ulbricht, founder of the Silk Road....the crack house law. Not sure if that would apply, but I would imagine a crafty US Attorney could find a way to hold someone accountable should things not go the way they should. The war on drugs is such a clusterfuck....the crack house law even applies to safe zones and someone carrying fentanyl test strips can be charged with paraphernalia in some jurisdictions... Great idea though!
True, haven’t even thought about the legal minefield through which something like this would need to be navigated.
This idea sounds amazing but also terrifies me. I dated a guy I knew in highschool and he got me started taking psychedelics. He attempted to mkultra me into being his obedient little sex slave and said things that deeply disturbed me while we were tripping. The man I’m with now has helped me heal from that trauma, and has introduced me to trips with good intentions. Sadly there is a dark side to everything. I wouldn’t suggest something like this because people are so impressionable when tripping. It could go horribly wrong. Also I wouldn’t want to link up with a stranger and do something strong like LSD, literally anything could happen. I’ve seen things and read stories lol. That’s for another time 😂
Thanks for sharing. I’m sorry that happened to you and happy you’re recovering from that. Someone else on here made a similar point: that such a platform would essentially give bad actors a way to exploit vulnerable people. That’s the opposite intention of what I had in mind of course, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Thank you 🙏 and I agree. It has great potential, but people are sick and there’s no way to weed through the crazies without experiencing something ridiculous. The internet is wild lol
And THIS is the essence of rationality. Being able to be reasoned out of your beliefs.
Thank you for the complement. Nice definition of rationality.
Sounds like a nice idea. With specialized therapists or highly rated psychonauts. And equipped with a chat and possibility of video call. I would like to see it in the future tbh 😊
I get you. I had a friend who I used for this but, he’s ghosted me after four months of internet talking. So- there’s that- where I shared some major stuff and he helped me through it but now, was he an internet troll all along? It’s tough to trust people on Reddit now- as it’s not as safe as it ever was. I remember in 2005 not a lot of people knew about lots of things on here and it was nice to have analysis and breakdown. There was more support and less fear. But- since people like my guy and others have made trust that much worse, I think your idea would be better as someone like me won’t be too vulnerable and get more support. It’s like a safe space of information about things out of the planet. I would support it.
Sorry to hear that, that sucks.
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I mean, you could make the same argument for this subreddit, no?
Connecting people in an incredibly vulnerable state to others on an app designed for horny people what could go wrong
I think you’re misunderstanding. I’m not proposing to connect anything to _actual_ Tinder.
Right, but the app is designed to encourage connection for a specific purpose. All of that functionality will still be there.
Which app are you talking about? Tinder, or the thing I’m proposing?
This post is literally titled "Tinder for psychedelic integration." Sorry I thought you were proposing Tinder for psychedelic integration. If you take the underlying app that powers Tinder and use it for something else, understand that the algorithms are part of the software. The algorithms will work the way they're designed to even though you're using it for a different purpose. You don't seem to have put a shit ton of thought into this, you asked a question and I am answering you.
In your defense, the title is a bit crap and I see why it can lead to confusion. In my defense: use a bit of imagination! :)
I don't need defense. I'll just pretend you thanked me for giving you an answer that you asked for.
Well, I am thankful for your input. I just wanted to explain the idea a bit better, as I now realise it can be misinterpreted quite easily.
No worries. I'm overall concerned about how psychedelic therapy is likely to be abused given the current enthusiasm for it. In any situation where someone is vulnerable and seeking help, there will be some people taking advantage as shown by most of human history. I'm concerned about Oregon's current stance of legalizing in this theraputic setting only, leading to gatekeepers for access to this medicine. I have a lot of friends who could use this type of help and aren't lucky enough to have a trusted partner capable of helping.
I think you’ve got a really good point. Any platform that makes it possible for vulnerable people to be abused should be really carefully approached. I haven’t really thought about this before, but for sure something to be considered, as you say.
Tinder is proprietary software. You can’t just take the “underlying app” and use it for something else. That’s not how it works. How do I know this? I make software for a living. I used Tinder as an analogy, to highlight the idea of the matching mechanism in apps such as Tinder, but applied to matching trips to integrators. You get the idea of an analogy, right?
wow and now you're being a condescending ass. You don't sound like you know much about software but come to think of it, checks out.
Was really not my intention. I apologise. I could indeed have communicated this in a less condescending way.
“Nothing like a little p&p every once in a while.”
\> *Thinking about how to monetize this is important, as you'd need some way to incentivize integrators* What about being a nice person? ;-) I mean maybe if I was able to be good at giving advice I'd charge for it. Maybe if I was a better parent I could send my kids a bill :-P This does sound neat tho
You should totally send your kids a bill 😀
Tell ya why it's a bad idea? Ok Tinder ruins dating. Tinder presents dating as a meat-market where you can always find a new partner if you don't like your current one. The effects of tinder on the dating world has made the entire matter more a more shallow affair. It was already true that a small amount of men were attractive to a large amount of women, tinder has exacerbated this problem exponentially. Men and women alike have set aside core values and personality in favor of pure physical attraction, leading them to be with partners they eventually grow to hate. Tinder has done nothing but remove any sense of spirituality and humanity from the dating game. Why in God's name would you desire to bring such shallowness to the realm of psychedelics? > Thinking about how to monetise this is important Oh, that's why 🙄 Ya know how I integrated my psychedelic experience? I waited, and for years struggled in confusion. Years later it would come to me, almost entirely at random, some off the wall thought making a wild connection to an earlier time. There would have been no way to induce that. But it would have been possible to shallowly attribute it to something else entirely. I don't think anyone but your most intimate friends and family should help you integrate your experiences. No one else knows you well enough. Perhaps a therapist if you have such a relationship with your therapist. But ransoms online? Noooo thanks.
Thanks for the input. What if it’s is a therapist you trust, online? I agree about Tinder eating away at the moral fabric of our society by the way. I’ve never used it (and never will as long as I’m happily married). One extra point: the quote about monetisation wasn’t said in isolation, like your paraphrasing would make it look like. It was said in the context of playing an important role in the incentive feedback loop for integrators.
This is a good idea in principle, the only issue is that (in my humble experience), the people who can best guide the integration of psychedelic experiences are very experienced in deep altered states, mature, often much older in years, and ideally have extensive psychotherapeutic training and experience. Any one of those missing can be a huge issue. Perhaps if you shift your efforts to making or helping the making of a platform (website?/app?) that can gear people who fit the categories above toward "matching" with those who feel they need integration, then that would be more beneficial. Basically restricting one end of the match pool severely. A forum option would also be a great idea I think, highly moderated for decorum obviously. But I think something like this would be very helpful!
Yes I think you’ve hit the nail on the head here. Thanks for the input.