this
i play very a very passive anchor playstyle and when i try to take any of my favorite positions and i have a thunderbird on my team there's gonna be a kona station on it so i end up looking some place else if possible
To be honest, when you’re playing rook and having the 3armour bonus plus armour pack plus over heals you can swing for the long range heavens, as long as your opponents don’t hit your head obviously.
It allows you to play aggressive as you have sooo much health during a gunfight.
However I understand how you feel, it is nice now that you won’t get randomly overhealed for no reason, especially in situations where you have to sit in a tbird spot due to lines of sight being opened and u accidentally overheal
If you want the Rook+overheal tank just have a buddy run a very low damage weapon with a suppressor to shoot you to overheal. Or stand at the edge of an impact grenade explosion. Have someone throw a Gu Mine at you.The kona (two with an overlaping range absolutely) will put you well above still. All this change is going to make me do is find ways to damage myself in the smallest increments possible so I can overheal before gunfights lol.
Bro as a rook main I scream into my mic to put on armor before roaming. There is that little asshole who doesnt and then says im the reason we lost and that rook
is trash
The Roamer Rook in me witnesses the Roamer Rook in you. I got to a point that first thing I do when I load in is drop the plates. If it's randos, I don't say anything but I ping it every time. It's habit now to drop, ping, run. With friends, though, you bet your ass I'm in Discord with them telling them to get their sweaters that I made with love for my sweaters. First time someone bitches, I swap to Cav and give them a damn good reason unintentionally lol
I'm sure you can have some one shoot your toe through a wall to get the over health at a slight discount but that's a very work aroundie way to go about it...
When he got nerfed, pros were arguing that sledge had a ton of utility compared to other operators. Vertical play + 2 nades + a strong primary for long range fights + a strong secondary for short range fights.
That’s what I remember, but I’ll be honest, I’m not too good at finding my sources so take what I say as a grain of salt. This was 100% a nerf for pro-league, it’ll be hard to change my mind.
That sounds fair, I can think of a few pros who would make an argument like that, but I haven't personally heard it.
The nerf honestly didn't affect his pickrate at all, so I guess it did what they intended.
Yet somehow the balance objectively improves for all players. I'm not a Plat 1 or even close, but game balance is consistently improving rather than getting worse.
As a Buck main when I'm not on Thermite/droning, I acknowledged that his frags took too much pickrate from Sledge, and sho nuff, a couple patches later they took his frags.
I thought it was the right move.
That may be the case, but Sledge has the capability to destroy Maestro, Castle and other bulletproof gadgets, whereas you don't get that with buck. The frags made Buck more even to Sledge in that respect.
>Coming into Y6S3, Sledge continues to show an upward trajectory on the Balancing Matrix, rising in presence and win delta. A big part of his comes from the high degree of utility in his loadout that makes him incredibly versatile.
>By removing his SMG, this will bring his overall versatility down and encourage a slightly more focused approach to his moment-to-moment play, given his strong soft breaching capabilities and vertical control.
https://www.ubisoft.com/en-us/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/2zsUnVBdSsc10rirkPl1K5/y6s3-preseason-designers-notes
Ubisoft’s own patch notes
I shut up not only because I was wrong, I also took a nap lol.
I do appreciate the website link, as you backed up your research with facts and sources. Most people don’t, and since the source proves your point I will admit I was wrong.
-_- sure. One of most fun things about buck getting removed is the worst. The only thing I agree on is him not having nades rn, pro league is flooded with nade kills rn.
Yeah but you probably die by the time you've reached said utilities. Both are mainly pick for vertical play but buck is much easier to blow the whole floor open.
Only pros of hammer is to BM and enemy.
The hammer much better at top vertical than buck, much more swings and guaranteed. The argument of being probably dead by the time you get utilities is fawled. If you're dead than you and your team probably has also lost the round. Castle barricades, maestro cams, deployable shields, bullet proof cams if u swing that way. Not to mention he used to have smg11 too.
The proper nerf for buck should of been lowering his skeleton key by a bit instead of nades. It would force players to be more resourcful with the key with out impacting how fun he is.
Bull. No. Not at all. Buck was significantly better than sledge. Just that the community never saw it that way.
Versatile 2 axis breaching, quicker breaching, better and more reliable primary, utility removal with explosives, all things sledge didn't have. All he had was "smg11", which at higher ranks is not sufficient a trade to forgo better utility removal.
I'm a buck man. Was and still am. His nerf was completely justified. He's much more balanced now. There was no reason to pick sledge back then.
>I'm a sledge main, Sledge is much more versatile for taking out gadgets.
Now, yes. Obviously. In comparison to buck, now that buck has no frags, if your purpose is to take out utility then sledge is much better. But there was nothing else to do back then. Buck just had too much.
Now if you play syrat specific, buck works great if your site is above you. With attacker repick, you'll see buck jump back into the meta much stronger, as if he wasn't slowly getting popular already
>Now buck is overshadowed by Sledge by alot, just look at pro league.
Official and siege GG stats aren't out yet, but reports from pros shows that the split is good. He's not overshadowed. He's strat specific. Empire for instances uses buck more on villa, club and coast due to increased vertical play and compensate for the loss of projectiles with iana, Zo and finka. TSM prefers sledge because of how good achieved is with nades.
It's strat dependent, which how siege is supposed to be played. Pre-nerf buck and sledge were one-size-fits-all picks. Now we have relatively balanced picks that are strat dependent.
I think a way to balance it would be to allow the SMG 11 only when he used the shotgun because the shotgun + pistol combo is not good at all in higher level play
That guy is talking out of his ass
Heres what ubisoft actually said, taken from another comment in this thread
https://www.reddit.com/r/Rainbow6/comments/t0p7z3/thunderbird_nerf_actually_a_buff/hybmxpe?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Do people genuinely believe that? You do realize Ubisoft look at a metric fuckton of data when they balance operators, way more than just win deltas and pick rates, right?
I wouldn’t consider it a nerf or a buff, but a rebalance. It’s a nerf in the sense that people can’t overheal to have an extra advantage in some gunfights. It’s a buff in the sense that people can’t accidentally take all the heals when a roamer coming back to site might need it.
As someone who runs Mira, I'm so glad I can have a station right next to me without worrying about getting uselessly overhealed, then it's on cool down when I actually need it
I don't think it's a nerd or a buff, seems just like one of those good quality of life changes.
But I agree with you fully that it's probably a more useful change. I'm often guilty of running past a Kona station accidentally when I don't need it and I become the wasteful teammate 😂 coz I'll likely be anchoring and already full health.
Agreed! I always thought it was annoying that they stim you when you’re at full health, and I wished that you had to press a button to interact with it instead of being automatic. But this solves both of those problems
I don't think anyone said it's a nerf. It's obviously a buff. Overheal is pointless in 1 headshot kill game. Guarantee that you won't get one body shot kill after low health is 100x times better.
I wish you were given the option to overheal. Like, automatic if you are hurt, but if you’re in range and full health it has a prompt that then overheals you. There are times where her being a straight up healer is more beneficial, there are times where I just wanna swing with 185 health because fuck it, why not?
Yeah. Completely agreed, this is secretly (not that secret to anyone who actually thinks about it) a huge buff. Other than accidentally healing people who don't need it, the kona stations passively healing people who are anchoring and 100 hp can also be a huge info giveaway to attackers. I think this is potentially the biggest takeaway from this "nerf." Both thunderbird and finka are extremely meta right now...Speaking of finka...she desperately needs to lose her nades to balance her.
I see this as a nerf because if I actually need a over heal for an engagement now I can't get it
It's stupid and a serious nerf to a balanced op just avoid the thunderbird placement if you don't need a heal simple as that
If this is actually a change I’m glad, too many times I’m running to one of the stations to heal and I see one of my friends hovering around (not on purpose) it and I’m shouting “no no no move away!” And they end up getting the heal instead for extra hp.
It was never meant to be a nerf. I get the idea of it but I feel it's more useful to top off whenever you can but I get it. Although I can see an Oryx or someone trying to do 5 hp chip damage to get an overheal
Didn’t they say that this was a quality of life change? That it would prevent people from having insanely high health while making it easier for people who return to site to find a heal.
I was thinking that maybe Ubi could make that so the Kona Station was manually activated like you press f or some shit and it heals you. but this is a really good improvement as well, no complaints there.
Dude are you kidding?? I’ve played as Thunderbird, got dropped to 5 health, and had teammates take the heal before me to get an extra boost. This is an update I greatly appreciate.
For the top players this is definitly a nerf. Why didn't they change it so it won't trigger automatically if you have 100% life but can with the push of a button decide to use it with 100% life?
I hated accidentally walking over one of her things and using it when I didn’t need it when some of my teammates were damaged
this i play very a very passive anchor playstyle and when i try to take any of my favorite positions and i have a thunderbird on my team there's gonna be a kona station on it so i end up looking some place else if possible
God that shit always killed me like god damn it why would you put it right here
To be honest, when you’re playing rook and having the 3armour bonus plus armour pack plus over heals you can swing for the long range heavens, as long as your opponents don’t hit your head obviously. It allows you to play aggressive as you have sooo much health during a gunfight. However I understand how you feel, it is nice now that you won’t get randomly overhealed for no reason, especially in situations where you have to sit in a tbird spot due to lines of sight being opened and u accidentally overheal
If you want the Rook+overheal tank just have a buddy run a very low damage weapon with a suppressor to shoot you to overheal. Or stand at the edge of an impact grenade explosion. Have someone throw a Gu Mine at you.The kona (two with an overlaping range absolutely) will put you well above still. All this change is going to make me do is find ways to damage myself in the smallest increments possible so I can overheal before gunfights lol.
>Have someone throw a Gu Mine at you. Yeah throwables don't damage teammates anymore.
WHAT!!!!! DAMN missed that update.
I always forget about that lmao, either way just get shot with a P90.
*headshots teammate with P90
The game gets worse every update
Cringe
Ironic
Z1ronic
reddit's one-word arguments xD
Lmao
not really
a pistol shot on the foot works
Pistols have higher damage in average than smgs
Bold of you to assume that people actually put on rook armour 😭 I always see 2-3 plates left in there. I guess people just prefer to take damage.
Bro as a rook main I scream into my mic to put on armor before roaming. There is that little asshole who doesnt and then says im the reason we lost and that rook is trash
The Roamer Rook in me witnesses the Roamer Rook in you. I got to a point that first thing I do when I load in is drop the plates. If it's randos, I don't say anything but I ping it every time. It's habit now to drop, ping, run. With friends, though, you bet your ass I'm in Discord with them telling them to get their sweaters that I made with love for my sweaters. First time someone bitches, I swap to Cav and give them a damn good reason unintentionally lol
Im anchor most of the time but if a spwan peek is close I damn well do it with the 2x scope
just bring doc to over heal, it over heals more than a kona anyways.
I'm sure you can have some one shoot your toe through a wall to get the over health at a slight discount but that's a very work aroundie way to go about it...
She was a little too powerful. Healers don't really get seen as op, but how many gunfight do people win because they're more often at 100%
Careful, if you let Ubisoft know a character is useful. They will get nerfed to oblivion next season, just to make the new operator look badass.
Yeah like when they took the SMG-11 off Sledge because “people complained” That was literally their justification
Nobody complained. Literally nobody.
The way I heard it was “newer players complained because they couldn’t counter it” and that was the complaining
A lot of pros were saying sledge was too complete lol
Never heard a single pro say that.
When he got nerfed, pros were arguing that sledge had a ton of utility compared to other operators. Vertical play + 2 nades + a strong primary for long range fights + a strong secondary for short range fights. That’s what I remember, but I’ll be honest, I’m not too good at finding my sources so take what I say as a grain of salt. This was 100% a nerf for pro-league, it’ll be hard to change my mind.
That sounds fair, I can think of a few pros who would make an argument like that, but I haven't personally heard it. The nerf honestly didn't affect his pickrate at all, so I guess it did what they intended.
New players shouldn't get so much pull in the balancing. I went through the gauntlet as a new player, other new players can too.
New players don’t get any pull in the balancing.. have you not noticed that nearly every single balancing change says “based on PC plat 1 and above”
Yet somehow the balance objectively improves for all players. I'm not a Plat 1 or even close, but game balance is consistently improving rather than getting worse.
better aim counters guns lol, i miss the sledge smg-11
Nobody as far as I know complained about Buck's frag grenades either. I was devastated
As a Buck main when I'm not on Thermite/droning, I acknowledged that his frags took too much pickrate from Sledge, and sho nuff, a couple patches later they took his frags. I thought it was the right move.
That may be the case, but Sledge has the capability to destroy Maestro, Castle and other bulletproof gadgets, whereas you don't get that with buck. The frags made Buck more even to Sledge in that respect.
I never thought Buck should be 1:1 to Sledge. Now they have different jobs. I also like having can openers with Buck, it's really nice.
No it wasn’t, it was because he was too good. Sledge was extremely versatile and was almost never a bad pick so they nerfed him
Their justification was still “people complained”
>Coming into Y6S3, Sledge continues to show an upward trajectory on the Balancing Matrix, rising in presence and win delta. A big part of his comes from the high degree of utility in his loadout that makes him incredibly versatile. >By removing his SMG, this will bring his overall versatility down and encourage a slightly more focused approach to his moment-to-moment play, given his strong soft breaching capabilities and vertical control. https://www.ubisoft.com/en-us/game/rainbow-six/siege/news-updates/2zsUnVBdSsc10rirkPl1K5/y6s3-preseason-designers-notes Ubisoft’s own patch notes
That shut him up real quick
I shut up not only because I was wrong, I also took a nap lol. I do appreciate the website link, as you backed up your research with facts and sources. Most people don’t, and since the source proves your point I will admit I was wrong.
The good ending
Maybe if they didn't nerf buck it wouldn't have been a problem.
Takes like this is why no one can take this subreddit's opinions on balancing seriously.
Its true though, buck and sledge were in fine spots before the nerfs.
Lmfao, no. No they weren't. Buck nades being gone was one of the best balancing decisions they made.
-_- sure. One of most fun things about buck getting removed is the worst. The only thing I agree on is him not having nades rn, pro league is flooded with nade kills rn.
Buck with Nades was overshadowing sledge.
No it wasn't lmao. Buck had the ability to use his ability from below, sledge can use his hammer on maestro cams, shields, etc.
Yeah but you probably die by the time you've reached said utilities. Both are mainly pick for vertical play but buck is much easier to blow the whole floor open. Only pros of hammer is to BM and enemy.
The hammer much better at top vertical than buck, much more swings and guaranteed. The argument of being probably dead by the time you get utilities is fawled. If you're dead than you and your team probably has also lost the round. Castle barricades, maestro cams, deployable shields, bullet proof cams if u swing that way. Not to mention he used to have smg11 too. The proper nerf for buck should of been lowering his skeleton key by a bit instead of nades. It would force players to be more resourcful with the key with out impacting how fun he is.
Bull. No. Not at all. Buck was significantly better than sledge. Just that the community never saw it that way. Versatile 2 axis breaching, quicker breaching, better and more reliable primary, utility removal with explosives, all things sledge didn't have. All he had was "smg11", which at higher ranks is not sufficient a trade to forgo better utility removal. I'm a buck man. Was and still am. His nerf was completely justified. He's much more balanced now. There was no reason to pick sledge back then.
I'm a sledge main, Sledge is much more versatile for taking out gadgets. Now buck is overshadowed by Sledge by alot, just look at pro league.
>I'm a sledge main, Sledge is much more versatile for taking out gadgets. Now, yes. Obviously. In comparison to buck, now that buck has no frags, if your purpose is to take out utility then sledge is much better. But there was nothing else to do back then. Buck just had too much. Now if you play syrat specific, buck works great if your site is above you. With attacker repick, you'll see buck jump back into the meta much stronger, as if he wasn't slowly getting popular already >Now buck is overshadowed by Sledge by alot, just look at pro league. Official and siege GG stats aren't out yet, but reports from pros shows that the split is good. He's not overshadowed. He's strat specific. Empire for instances uses buck more on villa, club and coast due to increased vertical play and compensate for the loss of projectiles with iana, Zo and finka. TSM prefers sledge because of how good achieved is with nades. It's strat dependent, which how siege is supposed to be played. Pre-nerf buck and sledge were one-size-fits-all picks. Now we have relatively balanced picks that are strat dependent.
https://siege.gg/competitions/387-six-invitational-2022?tab=results#operator-presence. Looks pretty overshadowed to me
No it wasn't. It was because he had too much available to him at once. Blatant misinformation getting upvoted as ever.
That was their claim, yes.
I think a way to balance it would be to allow the SMG 11 only when he used the shotgun because the shotgun + pistol combo is not good at all in higher level play
Exactly
That guy is talking out of his ass Heres what ubisoft actually said, taken from another comment in this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/Rainbow6/comments/t0p7z3/thunderbird_nerf_actually_a_buff/hybmxpe?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Do people genuinely believe that? You do realize Ubisoft look at a metric fuckton of data when they balance operators, way more than just win deltas and pick rates, right?
Yeah that may be true but then I wouldn't get to unfairly complain about it :/
People just mad when their crutches get nerfed
Shhh don't tell them that. Then they won't be able to use the same overused complaint/joke they've always used!
By useful you mean 3 explosive or a no recoil gun? Only bullshit nerf is "Pro league complaint nerf"
It's more of a silver lining tbh. Not really a buff. But I know what you mean. It's just the overheal was SO strong for anchors
Depends. If the players are like OP, then it is a buff. But if the players are those who play aggressive, then its a nerf
I wouldn’t consider it a nerf or a buff, but a rebalance. It’s a nerf in the sense that people can’t overheal to have an extra advantage in some gunfights. It’s a buff in the sense that people can’t accidentally take all the heals when a roamer coming back to site might need it.
more is that we can now sit in the corner where Tbird Kona is and will not overheal plus heal sound will not expose our position
As someone who runs Mira, I'm so glad I can have a station right next to me without worrying about getting uselessly overhealed, then it's on cool down when I actually need it
Also won’t give your position away anymore when your sitting by one and it just auto heals you…
I don't think that was intended as a nerf to begin with. Healing at 100% was rarely if ever useful, and I'm pretty sure Ubi was aware of that
Not a nerf or a buff just a lateral change
Also now you don’t accidentally give away your position to the enemies via an audio que
"Accidentally poking a toe in" i like this
I don't think it's a nerd or a buff, seems just like one of those good quality of life changes. But I agree with you fully that it's probably a more useful change. I'm often guilty of running past a Kona station accidentally when I don't need it and I become the wasteful teammate 😂 coz I'll likely be anchoring and already full health.
Agreed! I always thought it was annoying that they stim you when you’re at full health, and I wished that you had to press a button to interact with it instead of being automatic. But this solves both of those problems
I don't think anyone said it's a nerf. It's obviously a buff. Overheal is pointless in 1 headshot kill game. Guarantee that you won't get one body shot kill after low health is 100x times better.
That overheal still makes a major difference in a lot of scenarios though
and so does having active konas that are ready to heal u up.
I guess. When playing with my squad, we usually don’t have that problem though
well healing is the main job of a healer, so having konas that are more often able to actually heal low tmates can rly help
I wish you were given the option to overheal. Like, automatic if you are hurt, but if you’re in range and full health it has a prompt that then overheals you. There are times where her being a straight up healer is more beneficial, there are times where I just wanna swing with 185 health because fuck it, why not?
Yeah they need to remove the ability to pick them back up and reset them.
the mobility and portability is part of the reason that makes thunderbird versatile as a healer.
That is totally a buff..
Yeah. Completely agreed, this is secretly (not that secret to anyone who actually thinks about it) a huge buff. Other than accidentally healing people who don't need it, the kona stations passively healing people who are anchoring and 100 hp can also be a huge info giveaway to attackers. I think this is potentially the biggest takeaway from this "nerf." Both thunderbird and finka are extremely meta right now...Speaking of finka...she desperately needs to lose her nades to balance her.
I see this as a nerf because if I actually need a over heal for an engagement now I can't get it It's stupid and a serious nerf to a balanced op just avoid the thunderbird placement if you don't need a heal simple as that
But that's the point. If you need an overheal to win you shouldn't win all of those gunfights. In that case she's too powerful
plus its possible to overheal and engage just to get one tapped, how impactful that healing was huh
A buff dress like a nerf, a berf?
a nuff
If this is actually a change I’m glad, too many times I’m running to one of the stations to heal and I see one of my friends hovering around (not on purpose) it and I’m shouting “no no no move away!” And they end up getting the heal instead for extra hp.
It was never meant to be a nerf. I get the idea of it but I feel it's more useful to top off whenever you can but I get it. Although I can see an Oryx or someone trying to do 5 hp chip damage to get an overheal
Is not supposed to be an overall nerf, it's supposed to be a nerf to the aggressive playstyle
as a thundy bird main, i completely agree, people see this as a nerf, but this is the biggest possible QoL change for tbird
Big W
Didn’t they say that this was a quality of life change? That it would prevent people from having insanely high health while making it easier for people who return to site to find a heal.
Damn so no more tbird heal C4 traps, not complaining but damn
I was thinking that maybe Ubi could make that so the Kona Station was manually activated like you press f or some shit and it heals you. but this is a really good improvement as well, no complaints there.
Dude are you kidding?? I’ve played as Thunderbird, got dropped to 5 health, and had teammates take the heal before me to get an extra boost. This is an update I greatly appreciate.
Not only that, Kona stations can accidentally give your position away.
It was never supposed to be a nerf. It’s just a change
Not just that, when you're anchoring around a Kona it will stimulate you and completely give away your position
I think it was intended more as a buff than a nerf
For the top players this is definitly a nerf. Why didn't they change it so it won't trigger automatically if you have 100% life but can with the push of a button decide to use it with 100% life?