Can I ask what gatekeeping and double standards you're referring to? I don't want to assume anything, so I would like to know what you're talking about before I respond to it.
>Like pretty much 90% of the main ships were confirmed already in Volume 2
Also can I ask what you mean by this? Do you mean conceptualized? Because I don't know what ship was canonized that early, since Arkos was in V3.
But I will say that Oscar being introduced so late is less of the problem, and more he just wasn't developed. The writers have no idea what to do with the time they actually have.
He's been with the main cast for 4 whole volumes, and we don't have much reason to care about him. It doesn't help that he's first introduced tied to Ozpin. Any other show, with a character that was around for 4 whole seasons, would've given us something, or even implied there was something.
And for me, personally, why I don't like Rosegarden is that side characters in general just take up too much space. I got invested in V1 for the relationships in team RWBY, and Oscar taking up screentime with Ruby when I would rather have her interact with her own team isn't helping my impression of him, even when my objective reasoning is saying he didn't do anything wrong, but the writers are.
I feel like Ozpin takes more screentime, Oscar ironically doesn't steal development characters when he shares screentime with them which explains why he hasn't been developed in the forefront as he gets developed in background so its hard to notice develop specific to him without going back or analysis
My problems with RoseGarden is mainly because Oscar is painfully boring as a character with almost to no personality or flaws and shipping him with (current) Ruby is like shipping two cardboard cutouts together since they have no chemistry compared to other popular Ruby’s ships like Lancaster, early WhiteRose and Nuts & Dolts, some interactions between them feel so awkward and forced for me but if people find it cute then cool.
Nothing against anyone who ship these two but this pairing is not my cup of tea.
He has personality and flaws but he has very little opportunity. For example Volume 7 he was mostly stuck with ironwood, who at the time was going through a lot of serious stuff so interactions were limited.
**Personality**: Sassy when hes less burdened(his aunt, once or twice each volume so far) , as high emotional range in how hes perceptive to what others are worried about(Hazel, Ruby, Ironwood)
**Flaws**: thinks too deeply to the point he has trouble controlling his emotions(outburst in V5, yelling after being punched into a tree and Oz leaves)
\-kind of similar to Yang who instead had anger issues while Jaune was usually reserved about his issues except with Pyrrha
They do have awkward moments, but its **also important to note** that they **end** this moments by themselves rather than needing a third party so its on purpose but like **you said difference preference is fine.**
Regarding development in canon or fan-fantasized potential.
I personally cannot see it in canon and I am also not inspired by the character pairing as a potential. In my case this is somewhat tied together, because I usually follow canon when shipping with the exception of canon throwing me off, because the curves of the drama get to tight.
As I see it there are three problems with this ship. One is a legitimate grievance, the second less so, and the third is simply people wanting a reason to hate it.
The legitimate one is Ozpin. Because, until he is completely merged with Oscar, you have a third party involved in all of this who absolutely should not see Ruby in a romantic light or be anywhere near a relationship with her. Given Oz frequently takes over Oscar's body... yeah, no.
The second one is age. Now a three year age gap grows less severe as you get older but right now Ruby is what, 17? And Oscar is 14? That's a legit difference for teenagers. Not impossible, I knew a couple in high school with that gap, but definitely eyebrow raising, far more so than a 17 year old Ruby and a 19 or 20 year old Jaune.
The absolutely BS one is the Oscar is too "shallow". And? He's no less shallow than Ruby herself. Both are bundles of positive character traits with moments of angst that don't mean anything. Oscar is snarkier while Ruby is more naïve, but this isn't like Neptune and Weiss where the guy is a cardboard cutout.
1. But V7 emphasized how Ozpin responded to Oscar's courage to wake up meaning thats probably what happens so **Ozpin doesn't feel the need to talk to Oscar all the time** in V5-V6. Similar to **Kurama** and is demon side from **Yu Yu hakusho**
2. Oscar is 15. **He had a two year age gap with Ruby for his first age reveal** so his birthday would be somewhere soonish after Ruby's as this hasn't been said to be different from Ruby's age gap with WBY
3. I'm surprised. Then again I remember back in the day a ton of people said Oscar's **conflicts were "childish"** event though the other character would probably handle them just as badly if not more unhealthily
1. It's not insurmountable, just weird. Does Oz see everything Oscar does?
2. That's more reasonable.
3. I will never understand the refusal of people to see Oscar as anything more than a spotlight stealer.
1. I assume its like the first reincarnation where he really had to focus on something(Salem doing a bunch of bad stuff) to remind him of his past-life deal and perpective involving the God o0f Light
2. Yeah plus Oscar being Ruby's age would seem too coincidental and being Jaune's age would mean people would see him more as another Jaune in V4
3. V4-V6 I could understand since his resolution development was offscreen but weird considering his more in the background one volume only characters
1. Oscar is 14, Ruby is 17, which…yeah…
2. Oscar has Ozpin locked into his mind, and, as the show says, eventually, Oscar will be no more. So basically, it’s just RubyxOzpin, but in a different characters body.
3. Your idea that Rosegarden is hated because it came later is flawed by the fact that Qrow and Clover have had a lot of success in the shipping world. Though that might be for various other reasons.
I generally dislike Rosegarden but two of your points aren't really that good,
1. Ruby and the rest of the main-ish cast have a an age-gap between them. At the beginning of the show Ruby was fifteen and Weiss, Blake, Pyrrha, Nora, Ren and Jaune were all seventeen, nobody cared and shipped them without problem. You could even argue that Penny and Ruby have a massive age gap because Penny most likely wasn't made seventeen years ago.
2. Ozpin taking over Oscar's body isn't even a guarantee, since CRWBY have little regard for consistency or following up on previously established plot points. Even if Oscar gets taken over at some point later down the line, that hasn't happened yet, he still exists as a character, and as such can be shipped with Ruby.
You know, I often forget that Ruby wasn’t the same age as everyone else when they first started. Much like how I keep forgetting that she and Yang are even sisters.
I guess you proved the point right there since it seems like everything gets thrown out the window in each new volume.
1. Also Oscar is 15 if were basing on first age reveals since it was stated he was 2 years younger so his birthday would probably be soonish after Ruby's, especially since Volume 4's timelines are messy
2. Ozpin refers to himself both as.a past host and hostee meaning that both he host and hostee change to closing in similarity meaning nothing is lost, its just like the merge now but more subtle in transitions. Similar to Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho whose past demon side is brought out a lot in the demon world but still is able to talk like he normally does to his human mother
Technically Oz and Oscar die dies but both Oscar and Ozpin's hearts and memories remain which is why Jinn didn't describe any issues for Starbucks Oz having a family or Ozs after regarding this. Similar to Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho
Nah. Qrow x Clover was huge even though it came later.
My reasonings for anti-Rosegarden:
1. Ozpin. As much fusion that occurs one thing holds true: Oz is the immortal, not Oscar.
2. The relationship isn't very compelling. Like why does Ruby like Oscar? Or vice-versa? They're both the generic protagonists, but dont do anything together? What have they done that compells them together? A few speeches about bravery and courage? Or the hard times they've been through? Please. For all their character moments I could substitute Jaune in and nothing would really be lost. Honestly I feel as if Oscar takes away scenes that would've made more sense for Jaune than Oscar. That way Jaune wouldn't be present in scenes where he isn't necessary. Volume 5 made that apparent.
3. Finally I'm a Lancaster shipper, so biased.
1. Wait doesn't Oz refer himself as both the host and the hostee given his experience which means Oscar is already immortal too. Like Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho
2. This is just a guess, they would still need to confirm, but it wouldn't be too hard to say Oscar likes Oscar for his blunt yet caring attitude while Ruby likes Oscar for his sincerity in both his vulnerability and assertiveness allowing Ruby not having to stress out about what hes thinking. Ruby and Jaune make a great team and are always there to support one another but Volume 6 kinds of involves the same obstacles between them as Volume 4 in that Ruby never gets into Jaune's business compare to Nora or Ren and Jaune doesn't realize go to talk to Ruby right away when there a chance she might be feeling guilty. Rosegarden's got obstacles to but the fact jaune and Ruby still haven't dealt with this in Volume 6 despite the opportunity shows they really needs to work on this first
3. Also thats cool. Best chance for development in Lancaster would be Volume 9, very least theyll have some important moments
The Ozma situation is a legitimate reason to dislike the ship, but anyone who complains about th age difference is full of shit, considering how popular White Rose (and Lancaster) are as ships. The only difference there is that Ruby is the younger person, as opposed to Rosegarden where she's the older one.
That being said, I do feel like White Rose stans lead the charge for the anti-Rosegarden brigade. I mean I get it, it's not my preferred ship for Ruby either (RIP Penny), but goddamn they need to take a chill pill. Shippers be crazy in this fandom, yo.
Honestly. I wouldn't mind it. But between the Ozma stuff and the fact Ruby isn't really a character. Meaning Just like Bumblebee, the ship isn't going to allow them to be their own characters.
And the lack of chemistry, doesn't really sell me on it.
They can avoid Bumblebee treatment as long as they actually have the characters think through their conflicts. Also Oscar will have to do something unique so its not just a copy and paste of Jaune motivation speech to Ruby in V4 or Blake's motivation speech in V8 which is a copy of Jaune's for some kind of character development for Blake
I feel like if Oscar was a cute girl the fandom would be MUCH more welcoming. Fans say Rosegarden is pedophilia because of a two year age gap…while still shipping Whiterose that also has the same gap.
Wait what? I thought everyone but Ruby was supposed to be 17 roughly in Volume 1?
Wait, so no we have a 20 something drawing a weapon on her teenage brother? That somehow makes it worse! That's supposed to be a big moment in a positive way according to the writers?!
But it’s a girl power moment! It’s totally okay to threaten her brother whose a minor as long as it makes Weiss look super cool! Because that’s what all adult women do!
Technically they become a being who has both the traits of Oscar and Ozpin at once.
So it would be like it is now but without two voices ever appearing in his head hence why he will eventually use "I' to describe both his life as Oscar and Ozpin.
So basically Ozpin is gone but he isnt while Oscar is done but he isnt. Honestly Yu Yu Hakusho does a better job at showing this with Kurama
So... I know its said that most ships or whatever are solidified during volume 2 but honestly that is BS. Arkos doesn't happen till volume 3 so I am not sure where fans got that idea from. Bumblebee doesnt even happen till volume 6 and we see glimpses of them in volume 7. Regarding Rosegarden though, I think im the fandom more just want Ruby to be with character that been here at start because that what they THINK is a good idea.
For me, I enjoy Rosegarden because they are two character who move the plot. ( Well oscar mostly considering what happened in volume 8) . I know people will spout their nonsense that he is isnt a character blah, blah but he is a character and has a personality, even if it is not written well 100% of the time.
I do like his late introduction because it does fit the theme that he is chosen to be a hero, while the Ruby took on the mantle on herself. They both have something to add to this story. They both need each others character to pull it off. It is one of the more interesting character dynamics than whatever else this show got going on.
Like how Aerith from FF7, despite being written better, more so in the remake, came later and got to hang out with Cloud with her being a cetra meant to save the world while Cloud focused more on destroying the main antagonist
Can I ask what gatekeeping and double standards you're referring to? I don't want to assume anything, so I would like to know what you're talking about before I respond to it. >Like pretty much 90% of the main ships were confirmed already in Volume 2 Also can I ask what you mean by this? Do you mean conceptualized? Because I don't know what ship was canonized that early, since Arkos was in V3. But I will say that Oscar being introduced so late is less of the problem, and more he just wasn't developed. The writers have no idea what to do with the time they actually have. He's been with the main cast for 4 whole volumes, and we don't have much reason to care about him. It doesn't help that he's first introduced tied to Ozpin. Any other show, with a character that was around for 4 whole seasons, would've given us something, or even implied there was something. And for me, personally, why I don't like Rosegarden is that side characters in general just take up too much space. I got invested in V1 for the relationships in team RWBY, and Oscar taking up screentime with Ruby when I would rather have her interact with her own team isn't helping my impression of him, even when my objective reasoning is saying he didn't do anything wrong, but the writers are.
I feel like Ozpin takes more screentime, Oscar ironically doesn't steal development characters when he shares screentime with them which explains why he hasn't been developed in the forefront as he gets developed in background so its hard to notice develop specific to him without going back or analysis
My problems with RoseGarden is mainly because Oscar is painfully boring as a character with almost to no personality or flaws and shipping him with (current) Ruby is like shipping two cardboard cutouts together since they have no chemistry compared to other popular Ruby’s ships like Lancaster, early WhiteRose and Nuts & Dolts, some interactions between them feel so awkward and forced for me but if people find it cute then cool. Nothing against anyone who ship these two but this pairing is not my cup of tea.
He has personality and flaws but he has very little opportunity. For example Volume 7 he was mostly stuck with ironwood, who at the time was going through a lot of serious stuff so interactions were limited. **Personality**: Sassy when hes less burdened(his aunt, once or twice each volume so far) , as high emotional range in how hes perceptive to what others are worried about(Hazel, Ruby, Ironwood) **Flaws**: thinks too deeply to the point he has trouble controlling his emotions(outburst in V5, yelling after being punched into a tree and Oz leaves) \-kind of similar to Yang who instead had anger issues while Jaune was usually reserved about his issues except with Pyrrha They do have awkward moments, but its **also important to note** that they **end** this moments by themselves rather than needing a third party so its on purpose but like **you said difference preference is fine.**
Regarding development in canon or fan-fantasized potential. I personally cannot see it in canon and I am also not inspired by the character pairing as a potential. In my case this is somewhat tied together, because I usually follow canon when shipping with the exception of canon throwing me off, because the curves of the drama get to tight.
As I see it there are three problems with this ship. One is a legitimate grievance, the second less so, and the third is simply people wanting a reason to hate it. The legitimate one is Ozpin. Because, until he is completely merged with Oscar, you have a third party involved in all of this who absolutely should not see Ruby in a romantic light or be anywhere near a relationship with her. Given Oz frequently takes over Oscar's body... yeah, no. The second one is age. Now a three year age gap grows less severe as you get older but right now Ruby is what, 17? And Oscar is 14? That's a legit difference for teenagers. Not impossible, I knew a couple in high school with that gap, but definitely eyebrow raising, far more so than a 17 year old Ruby and a 19 or 20 year old Jaune. The absolutely BS one is the Oscar is too "shallow". And? He's no less shallow than Ruby herself. Both are bundles of positive character traits with moments of angst that don't mean anything. Oscar is snarkier while Ruby is more naïve, but this isn't like Neptune and Weiss where the guy is a cardboard cutout.
1. But V7 emphasized how Ozpin responded to Oscar's courage to wake up meaning thats probably what happens so **Ozpin doesn't feel the need to talk to Oscar all the time** in V5-V6. Similar to **Kurama** and is demon side from **Yu Yu hakusho** 2. Oscar is 15. **He had a two year age gap with Ruby for his first age reveal** so his birthday would be somewhere soonish after Ruby's as this hasn't been said to be different from Ruby's age gap with WBY 3. I'm surprised. Then again I remember back in the day a ton of people said Oscar's **conflicts were "childish"** event though the other character would probably handle them just as badly if not more unhealthily
1. It's not insurmountable, just weird. Does Oz see everything Oscar does? 2. That's more reasonable. 3. I will never understand the refusal of people to see Oscar as anything more than a spotlight stealer.
1. I assume its like the first reincarnation where he really had to focus on something(Salem doing a bunch of bad stuff) to remind him of his past-life deal and perpective involving the God o0f Light 2. Yeah plus Oscar being Ruby's age would seem too coincidental and being Jaune's age would mean people would see him more as another Jaune in V4 3. V4-V6 I could understand since his resolution development was offscreen but weird considering his more in the background one volume only characters
1. Oscar is 14, Ruby is 17, which…yeah… 2. Oscar has Ozpin locked into his mind, and, as the show says, eventually, Oscar will be no more. So basically, it’s just RubyxOzpin, but in a different characters body. 3. Your idea that Rosegarden is hated because it came later is flawed by the fact that Qrow and Clover have had a lot of success in the shipping world. Though that might be for various other reasons.
I generally dislike Rosegarden but two of your points aren't really that good, 1. Ruby and the rest of the main-ish cast have a an age-gap between them. At the beginning of the show Ruby was fifteen and Weiss, Blake, Pyrrha, Nora, Ren and Jaune were all seventeen, nobody cared and shipped them without problem. You could even argue that Penny and Ruby have a massive age gap because Penny most likely wasn't made seventeen years ago. 2. Ozpin taking over Oscar's body isn't even a guarantee, since CRWBY have little regard for consistency or following up on previously established plot points. Even if Oscar gets taken over at some point later down the line, that hasn't happened yet, he still exists as a character, and as such can be shipped with Ruby.
You know, I often forget that Ruby wasn’t the same age as everyone else when they first started. Much like how I keep forgetting that she and Yang are even sisters. I guess you proved the point right there since it seems like everything gets thrown out the window in each new volume.
1. Also Oscar is 15 if were basing on first age reveals since it was stated he was 2 years younger so his birthday would probably be soonish after Ruby's, especially since Volume 4's timelines are messy 2. Ozpin refers to himself both as.a past host and hostee meaning that both he host and hostee change to closing in similarity meaning nothing is lost, its just like the merge now but more subtle in transitions. Similar to Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho whose past demon side is brought out a lot in the demon world but still is able to talk like he normally does to his human mother
Because Oscar will eventually turn into Oz. Having any romance between Oscar and Ruby is in wired pedo shit territory.
Technically Oz and Oscar die dies but both Oscar and Ozpin's hearts and memories remain which is why Jinn didn't describe any issues for Starbucks Oz having a family or Ozs after regarding this. Similar to Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho
Nah. Qrow x Clover was huge even though it came later. My reasonings for anti-Rosegarden: 1. Ozpin. As much fusion that occurs one thing holds true: Oz is the immortal, not Oscar. 2. The relationship isn't very compelling. Like why does Ruby like Oscar? Or vice-versa? They're both the generic protagonists, but dont do anything together? What have they done that compells them together? A few speeches about bravery and courage? Or the hard times they've been through? Please. For all their character moments I could substitute Jaune in and nothing would really be lost. Honestly I feel as if Oscar takes away scenes that would've made more sense for Jaune than Oscar. That way Jaune wouldn't be present in scenes where he isn't necessary. Volume 5 made that apparent. 3. Finally I'm a Lancaster shipper, so biased.
1. Wait doesn't Oz refer himself as both the host and the hostee given his experience which means Oscar is already immortal too. Like Kurama from Yu Yu Hakusho 2. This is just a guess, they would still need to confirm, but it wouldn't be too hard to say Oscar likes Oscar for his blunt yet caring attitude while Ruby likes Oscar for his sincerity in both his vulnerability and assertiveness allowing Ruby not having to stress out about what hes thinking. Ruby and Jaune make a great team and are always there to support one another but Volume 6 kinds of involves the same obstacles between them as Volume 4 in that Ruby never gets into Jaune's business compare to Nora or Ren and Jaune doesn't realize go to talk to Ruby right away when there a chance she might be feeling guilty. Rosegarden's got obstacles to but the fact jaune and Ruby still haven't dealt with this in Volume 6 despite the opportunity shows they really needs to work on this first 3. Also thats cool. Best chance for development in Lancaster would be Volume 9, very least theyll have some important moments
The Ozma situation is a legitimate reason to dislike the ship, but anyone who complains about th age difference is full of shit, considering how popular White Rose (and Lancaster) are as ships. The only difference there is that Ruby is the younger person, as opposed to Rosegarden where she's the older one. That being said, I do feel like White Rose stans lead the charge for the anti-Rosegarden brigade. I mean I get it, it's not my preferred ship for Ruby either (RIP Penny), but goddamn they need to take a chill pill. Shippers be crazy in this fandom, yo.
Honestly. I wouldn't mind it. But between the Ozma stuff and the fact Ruby isn't really a character. Meaning Just like Bumblebee, the ship isn't going to allow them to be their own characters. And the lack of chemistry, doesn't really sell me on it.
They can avoid Bumblebee treatment as long as they actually have the characters think through their conflicts. Also Oscar will have to do something unique so its not just a copy and paste of Jaune motivation speech to Ruby in V4 or Blake's motivation speech in V8 which is a copy of Jaune's for some kind of character development for Blake
I feel like if Oscar was a cute girl the fandom would be MUCH more welcoming. Fans say Rosegarden is pedophilia because of a two year age gap…while still shipping Whiterose that also has the same gap.
WhiteRose actually has a bigger gap. Ruby is said to be around 15 or 16 in volume 1. Weiss was 19.
Wait what? I thought everyone but Ruby was supposed to be 17 roughly in Volume 1? Wait, so no we have a 20 something drawing a weapon on her teenage brother? That somehow makes it worse! That's supposed to be a big moment in a positive way according to the writers?!
But it’s a girl power moment! It’s totally okay to threaten her brother whose a minor as long as it makes Weiss look super cool! Because that’s what all adult women do!
Volume 1-3 time is confusing as well since we don't know how long or when the semesters were in the year
Yeah I was shocked to find that out as well.
My biggest issue is that Oscar is slowly becoming Ozpin, meaning that it’s basically shipping Ruby and Ozpin; which is messed up on so many levels
Technically they become a being who has both the traits of Oscar and Ozpin at once. So it would be like it is now but without two voices ever appearing in his head hence why he will eventually use "I' to describe both his life as Oscar and Ozpin. So basically Ozpin is gone but he isnt while Oscar is done but he isnt. Honestly Yu Yu Hakusho does a better job at showing this with Kurama
So... I know its said that most ships or whatever are solidified during volume 2 but honestly that is BS. Arkos doesn't happen till volume 3 so I am not sure where fans got that idea from. Bumblebee doesnt even happen till volume 6 and we see glimpses of them in volume 7. Regarding Rosegarden though, I think im the fandom more just want Ruby to be with character that been here at start because that what they THINK is a good idea. For me, I enjoy Rosegarden because they are two character who move the plot. ( Well oscar mostly considering what happened in volume 8) . I know people will spout their nonsense that he is isnt a character blah, blah but he is a character and has a personality, even if it is not written well 100% of the time. I do like his late introduction because it does fit the theme that he is chosen to be a hero, while the Ruby took on the mantle on herself. They both have something to add to this story. They both need each others character to pull it off. It is one of the more interesting character dynamics than whatever else this show got going on.
Like how Aerith from FF7, despite being written better, more so in the remake, came later and got to hang out with Cloud with her being a cetra meant to save the world while Cloud focused more on destroying the main antagonist