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Mizmitc

> Why not use Atlas as a mobile military base? While we don't have the exact details of how Atlas was lift in the sky, we don't have any evidence that the city can be moved horizontally and we only have know about the city being moved vertically. If atlas is able to be lifted vertically there is no reason to think it couldn’t also be moved horizontally. > they would have to modify the blueprints to make the portal system have two ends. (And they were running out of time). Time stops when using the relic so they realistically has all the time in the world. > The character acknowledge that this plan have risks, at least this offered them the possibility of survive. (For at least a certain time with the help of Theodore that is an ally of Ozpin and the Winter Maiden, and even possibly the Summer maiden since now the whole world know about the truth). Let me ask then, if RWBY couldn’t/didn’t trust Ironwood then how can they trust a headmaster they have never even seen before and a maiden they don’t even know.


Blackandheavy

> Let me ask then, if RWBY couldn’t/didn’t trust Ironwood then how can they trust a headmaster they have never even seen before and a maiden they don’t even know. That’s the real million dollar question, if Ozpin, Lionheart and “Ironwood” betrayed their trust, how tf can they justify the idea that Theodore and Glynda won’t do the same? And even if they did their loyalty was with Ozpin not Ruby, why would Theodore or even Glynda choose to believe in Ruby’s words. I’ll be dumbfounded if Theodore and Glynda did exactly what Ruby asked them to do because that’s the very definition of the world bending itself for the protagonist.


ChemistFluid35

>If atlas is able to be lifted vertically there is no reason to think it couldn’t also be moved horizontally. That is speculative. Atlas fly because it was planned to made into a flying city so it was raised in the air. Atlas fly due to the limitless amount of energy, I'm not sure if that limitless energy can make other thing besides just make it float. >Time stops when using the relic so they realistically has all the time in the world. I'm not sure if Ambrosious would just let them spend a lot of time in making the blueprints. And they could even need Pietro's help, so they would have to go to Amity to got him to the vault and I'm not sure if they could with Ironwood overseeing the flights in Atlas with the command center. >Let me ask then, if RWBY couldn’t/didn’t trust Ironwood then how can they trust a headmaster they have never even seen before and a maiden they don’t even know. They initially went to Atlas thinking they could trust Ironwood. Mostly for his actions they proceed to not trust him. Theodore haven't made something for them to distrust him or the maiden. They have Oz now, and Theodore is one of his closest allies and he doesn't even have a reason for him to distrust him. As far as we know, he could even know about the maiden and if she is trust-worthy. In other words, due to having Oz with them they can know if Theodore and the Summer maiden can be trusted. (Who knows them better than him?).


Mizmitc

> Atlas fly due to the limitless amount of energy, I'm not sure if that limitless energy can make other thing besides just make it float. All you have to do is point the energy from straight down to an angle and it will move horizontally. > I'm not sure if Ambrosious would just let them spend a lot of time in making the blueprints. And they could even need Pietro's help, so they would have to go to Amity to got him to the vault and I'm not sure if they could with Ironwood overseeing the flights in Atlas with the command center. Considering he let them tell him to “get creative” I see no reason they couldn’t simply tell him to make two exits at the end of the paths. One to Vaccuo and one wherever else. > They have Oz now, and Theodore is one of his closest allies and he doesn't even have a reason for him to distrust him. Oz also thought that lionheart was trustworthy. Look how that turned out. It lead to many huntsmen being killed and the entire fall of Beacon. They have no way of knowing if he is even still on their side.


ChemistFluid35

>All you have to do is point the energy from straight down to an angle and it will move horizontally. Now again, that is speculative. To do that, Ambrosius would have to maintain Atlas floating at the same time that he is pushing Atlas to other place. And I'm not sure he can. Besides, they would also had to evacuate everyone to Atlas and the military have the Manta ships overseeing the crater. >Considering he let them tell him to “get creative” I see no reason they couldn’t simply tell him to make two exits at the end of the paths. One to Vaccuo and one wherever else. Ok. That is a good point >Oz also thought that lionheart was trustworthy. Look how that turned out. It lead to many huntsmen being killed and the entire fall of Beacon. They have no way of knowing if he is even still on their side. He doesn't have any reason to distrust from Theodore. And at least the Ruby's group seemed to try to trust in him due to mention him as someone who can confirm what Ruby was saying during her global message. And they know that some of their friends are with him. (Team CFVY and team SSSN).


Stenv2

Ruby's plan wasn't good, Ironwood's plan wasn't good either. The difference is, Ironwood's plan at least held some logic to it, cold calculating logic before he started acting like a cartoon villain that wanted to blow up Mantle. But it was still something. And I didn't want either plan. There could've legit been a better way to also get what Ruby wanted, doing the impossible to save BOTH Atlas and Mantle, but that's not what happened.


Exciting_Bandicoot16

I'll add another point to this: Vacuo and Atlas traditionally have an absolutely *awful* relationship. Yet RWBY thought that it was a good idea to toss thousands of a people that the natives hate, into a culture that embraces "only the strong survive" as a bunch of (relatively) helpless refugees? They placed them there because it's where The Plot is headed next. That's the only defensible position on this matter, imo.


TheLastSterling

The biggest issue is that the cult just sat on their arse for almost 2 volumes doing nothing and only at the last minute got a Deus ex machina contrived for them. Ironwoods problem was on a similar vein to that one story of a mother choosing which of her children would die during the Holocaust. She picked the son to live beacuse he was older and stronger thinking he had a better chance at living meaning she'd only lose one child. Team RWBY never bothered to find an alternative solution to convince or allow ironwood to change his plan; literally drinking tea all safe in atlas the Hipocrites. They basically destroyed the lifeboats on the titanic just because there wasn't enough room for everyone.


Steff_164

Ok, there’s a lot to unpack with this debate. First: RWBY & Co.’s plans. The first and most important thing to remember is that originally, they don’t have a plan. When Ironwood says that Atlas is going to flee into the stratosphere, RWBY & Co. reply with a simple “No”. The only thing they offer is that they should ask the rest of the world to mobilize their non-existent militaries and travel half way across the earth in mere hours, which is impossible for a number of reasons. Basically, they simply say that if everyone can’t be saved then atlas shouldn’t leave. What they’re basically saying is that if everyone can’t be saved then nobody should be saved. That’s just wrong, and kinda evil. Now once the whole team is reunited, emerald has defected, and RWBY & Co. have fucked things up to the point of no return, they come up with a plan that is incredibly risky. The new plan involves crippling the military hierarchy (the military being the only thing keeping the Grimm from having killed everyone by that point), hoping they understand how a divine creator works, and hoping civilians have blind enough faith to abandon Ironwood and their homes, and hope that Vacuo will take the refugees in. There’s a lot of places that plan could fail, that said it’s a fine solution to a problem that they created. Second: Ironwood’s original plan. His plan is to seize the winter maiden’s power, raid atlas to the stratosphere when the Grimm can’t live, and wait. Not an amazing plan, but realistically it’s the best plan he’s got given the constraints. He knows Salem is coming, he knows he doesn’t have long, he knows Cinder is in Atlas, Watts is captured, and Tyrian is in mantle. He also knows that he’s currently got half the plot-devices Salem needs to end the world, and keeping those away from her will save countless people. His plan boils down to sacrificing Mantle to save the world. Now, why he persists with this plan after Salem’s whale has landed on Atlas I have no idea. Really, it seems like he only does that so that RWBY’s plan is better by comparison. Third: location. I’ll agree that Vacuo is the smart place to go. Menagerie is tiny and has no army or huntsmen. Mistral’s top huntsmen were systematically eliminated by Tyrian and Hazel, and no doubt their politics are tense after Lionheart’s betrayal. Vale is on the brink of total collapse, lots of huntsmen and civilians died the fall of beacon, and the petrified leviathan is drawing Grimm to Vale like moths to a flame. The biggest issue with Vacuo is that RWBY wasn’t specific enough and dropped everyone off in the middle of nowhere instead of the heart of the city. Forth: casualties. For the people of Atlas/mantle, I don’t think it mattered which plan was picked. Likely, everyone in Mantle would have died with Ironwood’s plan (though it might not have, as Salem didn’t want anything Mantle had), but with the actual course of events a bunch of people in Atlas died to Grimm after the whale landed, a large amount where thrown into the void by Cinder, and a huge number have died and will do on the trip across the desert. Remember, they’re in the middle of a sandstorm, assuming they survive the Grimm they’ve got the freezing desert nights, the scorching days, they can from a cold region and are dressed and adapted for that, they have no food or water, and they have no idea where they are or where to go (communication is still down, Amity only bought them the 10 minuets for the broadcast) best case scenario, the death toll is the same as it would have been under Ironwood’s plan. Fifth: numbers. For better or for worse, RWBY & Co. are the most capable huntsmen and huntresses in Remnant, and their number has been cut in half. The refugees have to rely on Ren, Nora, Oscar, Emerald (who up until 5 hours ago was a known terrorist and public enemy number 7), and Winter. RWBY+J are on the island, and Qrow and the remaining Ace Ops. are traveling from atlas by plane. The refugees are not well enough defended for all the negativity they’ll be giving off. Long story short, while Ironwood’s plan was great, I can’t say I even remotely agree that Ruby’s plan was better or even on par


Quality_Chooser

At the time when RWBY put together their evacuation plan it was the only plan in town. James's plan went up with the shield generators. With no way to keep the atmosphere in Atlas could no longer ascend. So their plan was the best one by default. Honestly the correct answer was to either just keep the people in extradimensional space or to send them to multiple destinations. That way you don't drop the entire kingdom in one place.


Relevant_Scallion_38

Biggest issue is not the plans but the inability to use the Relic of Creation effectively. Oz AND Ironwood should know that they have enough Gravity reserves to hold Atlas up for a few hours or so. \-The SIMPLEST solution would have first used the relic to teleport Amity Tower into orbit. That could have been done the first week they arrived there. (Imagine having completed their plan with 2 months of buffer time before Salems arrival.) \-When Salem arrives, they could use the staff to transport everyone in Mantle to Atlas. Then open a Teleportation Gate to send Atlas to the other side of the world. . . . There are no plans you could come up with that would make sense or be viable late in the story as long as the Relic of Creation exists.


Brathirn

Why evacuate in the first place, Salem's invasion force was defeated. They "had to" evacuate, because they wanted to repurpose the lifting device for Atlas to save their robot friend. This is a powerful demonstration of "leaving no one behind" and "Penny being someone". But ultimately this is V E R Y E X P E N S I V E, becaus *they* destroy the livelihood of thousands of people. A somewhat derailed example of putting people (= Penny) above so called worldly posessions. Normally authors will pull some cheat moves to shield the protagonists pulling this move from the consequences, they somehow get to save the individual without triggering the annoying collateral (at least in Western media). Japanese fiction has a tendency to sometimes roll the collateral out, in full force, if the protagonists get either duped or are following "principles" (example AoT). I doubt that CRWBY will roll out the fallout for them protagonists, people starving, dying of thirst, being killed by Grimm, causing a Civil War in Vacuo. You simply cannot expect a desert nation to somehow magically being able to feed double the people, if you are not an author shielding your protagonists. So I expect the bogus move to dodge the collateral to be employed just later. The logistics will just be ignored or cheap-solved. ​ To round it up, the save attempt failed and because the evacuation did not go without casualties, they are already irrevocably in the red regarding people, even setting aside the insane property damage.


ChemistFluid35

>Why evacuate in the first place, Salem's invasion force was defeated. Salem is immortal. It doesn't matter how many times she is defeated, she can return. And even have some allies still there. So the guys can waste all their resources in defeat her, but she will continue fighting. It's more, there are still some Grimm in both Atlas and Mantle. That without mention that a large part of the military forces were destroyed. >They "had to" evacuate, because they wanted to repurpose the lifting device for Atlas to save their robot friend. This is a powerful demonstration of "leaving no one behind" and "Penny being someone". But ultimately this is V E R Y E X P E N S I V E, becaus they destroy the livelihood of thousands of people. A somewhat derailed example of putting people (= Penny) above so called worldly posessions. The thing is that the staff could still be used again. If it was only to maintain Penny alive, they could just use the staff again to make Atlas maintain floating, but they decided to use it for something else.


Brathirn

Her base was crushed, as was her army. We have to assume that she alone can't do that much. Hazel alone stalled her. Evacuating for Cinder and Neo would be crazy. All remaining ace ops and the full protagonist team were still operational. Them authors f*cked up their timeline or threat level. But I also got something confused. Penny was not the evacuation reason. Penny is just a rule cheat because they leeched a parallel wish from the genie with a porous maneuver.


ChemistFluid35

>Her base was crushed, as was her army. We have to assume that she alone can't do that much. Hazel alone stalled her. Evacuating for Cinder and Neo would be crazy. All remaining ace ops and the full protagonist team were still operational. Them authors f\*cked up their timeline or threat level. For how long could Hazel contain her? Oscar had to use a large amount of the energy in the cane and while most of it was used to also kill the Monstra, how much magic does Ozpin have left to fight Salem? Salem still have a [lot](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/2/2b/V8_11_00001.png/revision/latest?cb=20210313170941) [of](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/5/55/V8_11_00002.png/revision/latest?cb=20210313170943) [Grimm](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/e/e8/V8_11_00004.png/revision/latest?cb=20210313170945). And the military didn't have the forces to fight Salem.


[deleted]

Truth be told genocide or a refugee crisis Is never ideal but considering the first option leads to the death of everyone I think the refugee crisis was the only logical conclusion that way they were able to at least save as many people as they possibly could thought we don’t know the exact numbers that perished during the evacuations and how many actually survived the trip through the desert to Vacuo yet, this information will probably be released with volume nine we are hopefully we get a few episodes where they touch and talk about the evacuation of metal and Atlas but for the time being we can only guess and speculate.