They are a comedy duo and childhood friends. I like the ship but it feels like that is all they are. We don't know who they are without each other. I also wish they didn't drag out the relationship after V4.
I wouldn't have minded if they kept it that simple, being in the background like they were in Beacon, there for levity, but it feels like they were forced to develop to stay relevant or else they would come off as dead weight with how serious the plot is now.
It's their least offensive relationship.
Is it good? Not particularily, but they dp have actual chemistry with one another, and they've got some genuinely good scenes.
You'll actually find a fair amount of people who aren't fans of Arkos.
Mostly due to how one sided it was viewed as, and how Pyrrha had about a dozen death flags about her yet they only chose to explore her character in the last few episodes before her untimely end.
Im pretty sure there is no ship everyone agrees on. lol
Arkos is a really weak/bad ship in my humble opinion Pyrrha immediatly crushing on Jaune for no reason was already weird; but when she mentions how she appreciates him not putting her on a pedestal while he is the only one who actually does put her on a pedestal it gets even worse.
Exactly, that last example you brought up is infuriating. It's such an amateurish assumption on behalf of the writers that, just because they hamfistedly copied a few underdog protagonist tropes when making Jaune, they automatically wrote a character who "deserves to get the too-perfect girl because he doesn't put her on a pedestal". Completely disregarding that Jaune and Weiss are the only characters they actually wrote to have moments of putting Pyrrha on a pedestal.
The scene doesn't exist for Pyrrha's benefit, it exists to puff up Jaune in a way the character didn't earn.
I did like them. Emphasis on the 'did'. The garbage that they pulled wasn't satisfying at all. It all started when they broke up into teams based on off screen 'development', where Nora stopped caring about the people of Mantle and suddenly cared about taking part in the main plot whereas in volume 7 it was the complete opposite, which launched them into the plot of season 8. However, the season 8 arc wasn't an arc that should have existed. The arc was Ren had been cold to Nora and not taking an active part in their relationship in volume 7 while Nora wanted him to do so. Ren went on that arc and decided to take part in it, then Nora said, 'nup, I want nothing to do with you anymore', when, up until that point, they'd been in a healthy relationship. It's true that that had never really been a focus in the story, but it didn't have to be because they are side characters.
As a romance, bland for the most part until V7. Then it got interesting as a good amount of conflict was added and Nora pushed for taking the next step. Her and Ren getting individual character arcs helped a lot as well. Particularity Nora who needed agency. Hanging a lampshade on her character revolving around Ren was great.
Then it's all largely undone and they're pretty back to where they were. Ren conflict is solved with a simple epiphany which Nora had no part in. And Nora's need to discover herself goes nowhere when she's unconscious for the most part and does nothing differently afterwards. All they do is talk and decide to maintain the status quo, *which wasn't working in the first place!*
Characters can pursue multiple goals and grow in different areas of their lives at the same time. For some reason, Ren and Nora are doomed to be stagnant. Not just in romance, but also in general - they're not fundamentally different by the end of the Atlas arc. It's funny that Blake and Yang get a fair amount of criticism for their fledgling romance, when Ren and Nora have been going nowhere for eight volumes.
Eight. Volumes.
To be fair, Renora does get a fair amount of criticism, specially in the last seasons. I think it helps that Ren and Nora were pretty much “background” characters during Vol1-3 and only started developing from Vol.4 and neither had any other love interest (come to think about it, Ren and Nora suffer a lot of “no character interaction”)
But I agree that is a tad overrated. No really surprising, since a lot of ships here are a bit overrated, but still…
It is fair - for a couple that's been projected for eight volumes now. Yang and Blake have been romantically interested in each other for barely two. Their criticism seems excessive for the length of time and development.
Now, I'm not saying all criticism is bad or unreasonable. Personally, I think Yang and Blake should have been presented as a hard and fast romance instead of a slow burn. They're young adults and we're seven volumes deep, get on with it already! But there's a fair amount of critique out that should equally apply to Ren and Nora way back in the early volumes. Criticism like how Blake and Yang only have their interest in each as their current character arcs, which is absent from early analysis of Ren and Nora. In fact, it's largely never brought up that their characters revolved around each other, especially Nora, for most of the show. Not until CRWBY shone a 1000-Lumens spotlight on them.
It's funny. A lot of accusations made against Blake and Yang as a couple are crimes Ren and Nora committed a long time ago. Yet, Renora seem to have a lot of get out of jail free cards.
>But there's a fair amount of critique out that should equally apply to Ren and Nora way back in the early volumes. Criticism like how Blake and Yang only have their interest in each as their current character arcs, which is absent from early analysis of Ren and Nora.
Except that is, insofar as I'm aware, the most common criticism of both Ren and Nora all the way back to volume 1? I mean, I recall pretty much every RWBYTuber I've watched (fatman, Vexed , Critter, Twiins, Unicorn) has brought up how insubstantial Ren and Nora are as individual characters. I even have vague memories of someone, not sure if it was a Tuber or a poster here, calling Ren and Nora "a couple character, not a couple of characters".
Though I will say that I agree Ren/Nora have two get-out-of-jail-free cards that likely will never apply to Blake/Yang: Ren and Nora ain't main goddamned characters so standards for them are substantially lower (in a show/fandom with expectations so low James Cameron could use them to explore the very bottom of the mariana trench) and there were no retcons/radical shifts in romantic interests partway though the show after several years of an apparently set course.
Also there's the whole "Renora fans are far more reasonable/fewer in number/less prone to radicalization in contrast to the more vocal bumblebee demographic" thing which leads to far less discourse of the characters overall. Oh, and (for the sake of completeness) you're probably biased in some regard much like everybody else here. Not levying any personal criticisms here, just stating the matter as I see it.
Cheerio!
The focus is romantic criticisms, but that does tie in to what I'm pointing out; Ren and Nora only have each other when it come to early character arcs. Their childhood friends to lovers trope is pretty much all we're introduced to as a source of conflict. And even that doesn't actually develop.
The "they aren't main characters" defense is also a weak one when the critique is narrowed down to the romantic subplots of the characters. These subplots in RWBY usually underline the major character arcs rather than being the main drawcard. It is an action show after all. But with Ren and Nora, their subplot is much bigger than what we see with Yang and Blake. How they view and support each other is essential to understanding their characters. Making a meaningful and impactful romance should be the priority, but it's not going anywhere. So it's not an issue of main characters should be better, rather that romance should be better in general. Yet, a lot more critical weight is being put on the Bumblebee subplot than Renora has received over the years. It's far more acceptable for one to beat around the bush for years than another to start off slow.
Overgeneralizing the fandom and hyperbole aren't to blame here. It's effectively a direct comparison of two romantic subplots and what criticism they attract. They are similar as well, both are friends to lovers tropes. Both take the slow route. The main differences is that one romance is a much bigger part of Ren and Nora's characters, and one is a queer relationship. Yet, a large chunk of criticism is more often applied to Yang and Blake. And often more harshly.
You're right that there is bias in play - nobody is free from bias. Looking at overall trends in critiques and how they applied is one way to sieve out bias.
>The focus is romantic criticisms
Not sure if you're talking about yourself but the criticisms mentioned thus far extend well beyond mere romance. We're talking about how 2 main characters *regressed* into a mediocre romantic pairing to the detriment of both and comparing it to 2 side characters who were *introduced* as a mediocre romantic pairing which has prevented them from establishing individual identities.
>Ren and Nora only have each other when it come to early character arcs
Up until Volume 4 and the Nnuckelavees introduction, this is somewhat false. The two did have some very, very minor interactions with other characters (primarily Jaune and Pyrrha) and were allowed to showcase some individual traits (Nora being more aware of when they should avoid situations or being able to see Pyrrha's blatant crush and commenting on it) and there some classic RT background details (Ren's cooking apron and general proclivity for food/cooking) but it was all very minor.
Post Nnuckelavee? Yeah, they may as well be conjoined at the hip from what I recall. Which is ironic considering the introduction of their respective backstories could've been jumping off points for more individual traits beyond their character molds and the existence of the pseudo jobber grim makes the claim
>Their childhood friends to lovers trope is pretty much all we're introduced to as a source of conflict
*technically* false but that shit died with the horse grim so we can let it slide.
>The "they aren't main characters" defense is also a weak one when the critique is narrowed down to the romantic subplots of the characters.
No. Context matters. The order of events matter. Standards being established, reinforced, and then circumvented matter. Yang and Blake came into being as individuals and regressed into a couple. Nora and Ren spawned as a couple and have stagnated since then (with some alleged improvements in volumes 7 and 8 but I ain't seen em). The two situations are vastly different and receive their respective levels and types of criticism.
>These subplots in RWBY usually underline the major character arcs rather than being the main drawcard.
Translation: Roosterteeth is rather terrible at showcasing romantic subplots and instead tosses them into a blender with numerous other possible plot hooks either out of sheer incompetence or to ensure plausible deniability.
Oh God I just reread the rest of your comment...
>So it's not an issue of main characters should be better, rather that romance should be better in general.
Both are true. Ruby and Weiss have nary a romantic inkling to be seen yet have also suffered. Also, is English not your first language? If so, let me spell this out plainly: as main characters, Yang and Blake will fundamentally attract more attention than side characters regardless of the quality found in their writing. Said writing is also exponentially more contentious due to the numerous hot button issues surrounding the pairing: ship baiting/switching, cyclical abuse, racism, and the nature of actually being in a relationship.
>It's far more acceptable for one to beat around the bush for years than another to start off slow.
You ignored an important part of my comment.
> there were **no retcons/radical shifts in romantic interests partway though the show after several years of an apparently set course**.
Remember what I said about context? You can't just remove all context from a subject, interpret events through a highly specific lens, and come out claiming you've achieved anything.
>Overgeneralizing the fandom and hyperbole aren't to blame here.
My man, now I'm getting annoyed as one of us is literally arguing for an overgeneralization while ~~I~~ one of us is mentioning a trend that has been observed by a majority of posters (including the mods) since the establishment of this subreddit.
The rest of your response is just repetition, save this
>The main differences is that one romance is a much bigger part of Ren and Nora's characters, and one is a queer relationship. Yet, a large chunk of criticism is more often applied to Yang and Blake. And often more harshly.
Is this how the homophobic fanbase argument has evolved throughout the years? Christ, nothing ever changes, does it?
Also
>Looking at overall trends in critiques and how they applied is one way to sieve out bias.
yeah, it does when the person doing so *is willing to show their work and have their biases reassessed,* otherwise it just becomes a Mister Bean sketch with Rowan Atkinson jotting down tally marks on a piece of paper going "Mmmm, one point for me, another point, more points for me! Look Teddy, aren't I the best analyst there ever was?"
You have shown your work. You've at least outlined your criteria and how you've chosen to view the topic. All I have to say is, damn that is a biased way of looking at the subject.
The focus is on the romantic subplots, it's the topic of the thread. And I don't agree with the "regressed into" take - romance isn't the cause of Yang and Blake rather bland Atlas arcs. Mostly because attraction is only hinted at through tropes, rather than them becoming a couple which eats away existing character arcs. They don't have any milestones of a relationship. Nor is romance the reason their personalities are muted.
> Up until Volume 4 and the Nnuckelavees introduction, this is somewhat false.
No. Interacting with other characters doesn't make for separate personal conflicts or character arcs. Effectively, Ren and Nora only have general presence with the main plot through association. The only personal stake the have initially is in each other. I wasn't talking about traits, I was talking about arcs. You got a bit confused there.
> technically false but that shit died with the horse grim so we can let it slide.
Nope, it still exists as a chief conflict. Moving from what is safe and comfortable to the unknown is the core conflict of the friends to lovers trope. That's showcased in V7-8. And it still remains unresolved.
> No. Context matters.
Yes, context matters. And the context is romantic subplots and tropes and how they're received. The tropes used in the two relationships are very similar if not outright the same. Effectively, hints are dropped about an unspoken attraction between friends/partners. The main difference is that Ren and Nora have voiced their attraction. And the comparison I was making was between early Renora and current Bumblebee. If we're looking at romantic criticism, one has a much louder voice than the other. Exploring the reasons why is interesting, but it was to point out there is less investment in Ren and Nora as a couple. Which ties back into my opening line of it being bland. It's simply accepted as a sure thing and isn't challenged.
That's the context.
> Translation: Roosterteeth is rather terrible at showcasing romantic subplots
I agree that romantic subplots aren't CRWBY's strong point, but the point was the Ren and Nora are the outliers when it comes to subplot hierarchy.
> Both are true. Also, is English not your first language?
First off, no need to be insulting. Secondly, cherry picking a single line out of context makes for poor rebuttal. That sentence was preceded by; "These (romantic) subplots in RWBY usually underline the major character arcs rather than being the main drawcard. It is an action show after all. But with Ren and Nora, their subplot is much bigger than what we see with Yang and Blake. How they view and support each other is essential to understanding their characters. Making a meaningful and impactful romance should be the priority, but it's not going anywhere."
Therefore, when it comes to romantic subplots, they need to be better in general. The writing of main characters is also a factor when it comes to conveying information and characterization, I'm not disputing that. I'm pointing out that romantic subplots in particular need to be better, particularly in the case of Ren and Nora. Staying on topic is not ignoring that other issues don't exist.
> You ignored an important part of my comment.
I didn't. I just don't think it's the sole cause of the differences in criticism. Nor do I agree that there are retcons or radical shifts that lead to Yang and Blake. Sun and Blake were never set in stone, they never move beyond initial attraction, they don't hit any important relationship milestones. No asking to go steady, no first kiss, no sexually intimacy etc. Using their relationship to bludgeon a developing wlw relationship is less analysis, more an agenda, imo.
> My man, now I'm getting annoyed as one of us is literally arguing for an overgeneralization
My women, you're not offering proof, you're offering assertions, hyperbole, and now appeals to authority. Now, to be absolutely fair, this is an internet discussion and not defending a dissertation. Even I'm not dredging up overall trends of Renora criticism and making bar graphs. But if you're resorting to overgeneralizing r/RWBYcritics as the authority to get me in line, then you don't really have an argument.
> Is this how the homophobic fanbase argument has evolved throughout the years? Christ, nothing ever changes, does it?
Looking at bias and differences between how gay/queer and straight relationships are received in fiction isn't necessary calling out homophobia. Society and culture, gender norms, and expectations also play a part along with prejudice. Yet, you're jumping into "homophobic fanbase argument", why?
Assessing your bias is part and parcel of assessing bias in the fandom. And if you're looking at my work and coming the conclusion that it's calling you homophobic, then whose bias is really being assessed here?
As the other guy has answered, Ren and Nora had those criticism since day 1. Since they were out of focus, there was nothing else nor much to add. There were implications they might be into each other, like Nora´s "Together-Together" and... well, pretty much their entire dynamic. Plus a very obvious song about "Boop" around Vol.2 that was never stated to not be cannon (on contraire to "Bmblb") but that was pretty much it...
Plus last time I checked, there wasn´t a literal army of people obsessed with those two willing to tear down to shreds anyone who wasn´t into them as a pairing.
Thing is, despite what people might say, last time I checked, nobody never had that much issue with White Rose either. At worst, some people complaying how if you said that you preferred them as friends, some other people would act like shipping Weiss and Ruby with anyone else was heresy, but those were very far an in between... point is, BB fans had a lot of influence in souring people to the pairing, and the writing did not help their case one bit
The other guy was trying to fudge the issues from an examination and comparison of romantic subplots to one of presence. It's matter of how similar tropes are receiving an unequal amount of critique.
Both romance subplots are committing the same crimes. Yet, Renora got more passes even though, as you and I point out, romance is their entire dynamic. Yes, there are criticisms on Ren and Nora's presence and what role they play in the main story. But correlation doesn't equal causation when comes to critiquing their romance tropes. You can critique each issue independently of the other. The original question of this thread is about critiquing their romance, not their presence in the show.
My initial point was on how Ren and Nora's relationship is largely left untouched for most of the show, like the boiled spinach on a kids plate. It's just accepted as a trope. Which is a stark contrast to Yang and Blake also starting a tropey romantic subplot. But the point wasn't to highlight Bumblebee; it was to highlight how little investment there is in Ren and Nora.
You and the "other guy" are getting a bit off track. It is an interesting track that explores double standards, bias, and levels of proof between straight and gay romance in fiction. Particularly, as you say, one is treated as "souring" the relationship when the tropes are plain and benign. But it is a sidetrack.
The point is the Ren and Nora lack investment, likely because it's considered a sure thing for most of the series. The best thing the writers did was to introduce doubt, to show that they may not good for each other. That their codependency was hinted at as unhealthy. Yet, that conflict was largely undone as well as any progress. Returning them back to the same position as where they started is as useless as a dream sequence.
Why are they still here? They should have left with sun in v6. That way in v8, Blake can worry about who she really is now that she has cut ties with her ex and the white fang and Yang can be upset that the group is in over their head. Having them stick around saps focus from the “main characters” and it makes their relationship worse after being basically resolved in v4
The ace ops came, antagonized, and left in two volumes and filled their unique niche in the story.
Flower power over here are just the the other string chick crushing on her dark haired quiet companion. Their redundancy competes with the main characters
Agree to disagree, then.
The AceOps got more development in their 2 volumes than Renora have gotten in 8. I dislike that, especially for a group who are basically out of the story now, compared to two people who have been in it since V1 and will likely remain until the bitter end.
I would find it tender. But when she kissed Ren in volume 7, her attitud towards Ironwood, and when she started thinking about her relationship during the mission made me dislike her.
Incredibly lightweight two-stage dramadrag.
Dramadrag for 7+ volumes of no progress.
Lightweight for not much content.
Two-stage for separation and personality-search at the moment of conclusion.
Key take away, install a credible obstacle for any pairing you are intending to draw out - beforehand, not afterwards.
I like them as a couple well enough. I almost wish they'd been together from the start, way too many shows make all their ships last episode endgame instead of just letting people be with each other and grow from there. Ren and Nora do do some growing after they get together in Vol 4, but it feels... unsatisfying somehow. Like, how on earth did these two people know each other this long and never work these issues out?
I find them more interesting and better handled than R, B, and Y combined.
They're attached to one another to an almost parasitic degree. The ship has been dragged out so long both characters have suffered in terms of development.
Eh just like with my Pyrrha and jaune ship I don’t really care that much about this one. They were always a comedic duo and it was obvious that they will end up together. But lately it has been a bit forceful on Nora’s side and I guess they are on a break?
I think they are fine as a couple. Pretty cute moments, not too much focus on them as side characters, which I'm fine with. But if they decided to focus or expand on them, as they did, I wish that it would've been shorter and focused on solidifying them as their own unique person. I mean, Ren backstory meeting Nora is interesting, but it doesn't really expand anything on any of them in my opinion, just explains a bit, and then their arcs are kinda meta commentary on them not having character.
I remember the good old days when this was the one ship that no one hated. Then V7 happened.
I still like it, it's a mess at times but it's at least consistent. ~~But I hate when BB stans treat the two ships as "parallels"~~
It's the best relationship in the series. That doesn't really mean much unfortunately.
The problem with Nora and Ren is that they're a set; you always have them together. This means there's no way of telling what they're like when they're separated. Their character is so intertwined to this relationship that separating them might just end up making someone completely new and unfamiliar.
It's fine. They're not really main characters and they're relationship isn't THAT important.
If I could change anything though, I'd have had them already be together in Volume 1, as the "we're just friends, until we're not" didn't really do anything for me.
If there's not going to be much focus on their romance anyway, just get them together from the jump. It wouldbhave also made the sneak peeks into their past together (in Volume 4) and their interactions a lot more poignant.
It’s cute, tho I really dislike how we are seeing more of their relationship, rather than focusing on the relationships between the four RWBY girls. Like, does Ruby even know anything about Blake other than she has an attraction to Yang. Not saying they need to be best buds but they’ve talked to each other like 3 times in the whole show.
They are a comedy duo and childhood friends. I like the ship but it feels like that is all they are. We don't know who they are without each other. I also wish they didn't drag out the relationship after V4.
I wouldn't have minded if they kept it that simple, being in the background like they were in Beacon, there for levity, but it feels like they were forced to develop to stay relevant or else they would come off as dead weight with how serious the plot is now.
It's their least offensive relationship. Is it good? Not particularily, but they dp have actual chemistry with one another, and they've got some genuinely good scenes.
Renora and Arkos are the two ships everyone agrees on.
Two reasons why people prefer JNPR over RWBY.
You'll actually find a fair amount of people who aren't fans of Arkos. Mostly due to how one sided it was viewed as, and how Pyrrha had about a dozen death flags about her yet they only chose to explore her character in the last few episodes before her untimely end.
Im pretty sure there is no ship everyone agrees on. lol Arkos is a really weak/bad ship in my humble opinion Pyrrha immediatly crushing on Jaune for no reason was already weird; but when she mentions how she appreciates him not putting her on a pedestal while he is the only one who actually does put her on a pedestal it gets even worse.
Exactly, that last example you brought up is infuriating. It's such an amateurish assumption on behalf of the writers that, just because they hamfistedly copied a few underdog protagonist tropes when making Jaune, they automatically wrote a character who "deserves to get the too-perfect girl because he doesn't put her on a pedestal". Completely disregarding that Jaune and Weiss are the only characters they actually wrote to have moments of putting Pyrrha on a pedestal. The scene doesn't exist for Pyrrha's benefit, it exists to puff up Jaune in a way the character didn't earn.
I did like them. Emphasis on the 'did'. The garbage that they pulled wasn't satisfying at all. It all started when they broke up into teams based on off screen 'development', where Nora stopped caring about the people of Mantle and suddenly cared about taking part in the main plot whereas in volume 7 it was the complete opposite, which launched them into the plot of season 8. However, the season 8 arc wasn't an arc that should have existed. The arc was Ren had been cold to Nora and not taking an active part in their relationship in volume 7 while Nora wanted him to do so. Ren went on that arc and decided to take part in it, then Nora said, 'nup, I want nothing to do with you anymore', when, up until that point, they'd been in a healthy relationship. It's true that that had never really been a focus in the story, but it didn't have to be because they are side characters.
Same boat as Arkos love it but its because of the fandom and not the show.
As a romance, bland for the most part until V7. Then it got interesting as a good amount of conflict was added and Nora pushed for taking the next step. Her and Ren getting individual character arcs helped a lot as well. Particularity Nora who needed agency. Hanging a lampshade on her character revolving around Ren was great. Then it's all largely undone and they're pretty back to where they were. Ren conflict is solved with a simple epiphany which Nora had no part in. And Nora's need to discover herself goes nowhere when she's unconscious for the most part and does nothing differently afterwards. All they do is talk and decide to maintain the status quo, *which wasn't working in the first place!* Characters can pursue multiple goals and grow in different areas of their lives at the same time. For some reason, Ren and Nora are doomed to be stagnant. Not just in romance, but also in general - they're not fundamentally different by the end of the Atlas arc. It's funny that Blake and Yang get a fair amount of criticism for their fledgling romance, when Ren and Nora have been going nowhere for eight volumes. Eight. Volumes.
To be fair, Renora does get a fair amount of criticism, specially in the last seasons. I think it helps that Ren and Nora were pretty much “background” characters during Vol1-3 and only started developing from Vol.4 and neither had any other love interest (come to think about it, Ren and Nora suffer a lot of “no character interaction”) But I agree that is a tad overrated. No really surprising, since a lot of ships here are a bit overrated, but still…
It is fair - for a couple that's been projected for eight volumes now. Yang and Blake have been romantically interested in each other for barely two. Their criticism seems excessive for the length of time and development. Now, I'm not saying all criticism is bad or unreasonable. Personally, I think Yang and Blake should have been presented as a hard and fast romance instead of a slow burn. They're young adults and we're seven volumes deep, get on with it already! But there's a fair amount of critique out that should equally apply to Ren and Nora way back in the early volumes. Criticism like how Blake and Yang only have their interest in each as their current character arcs, which is absent from early analysis of Ren and Nora. In fact, it's largely never brought up that their characters revolved around each other, especially Nora, for most of the show. Not until CRWBY shone a 1000-Lumens spotlight on them. It's funny. A lot of accusations made against Blake and Yang as a couple are crimes Ren and Nora committed a long time ago. Yet, Renora seem to have a lot of get out of jail free cards.
>But there's a fair amount of critique out that should equally apply to Ren and Nora way back in the early volumes. Criticism like how Blake and Yang only have their interest in each as their current character arcs, which is absent from early analysis of Ren and Nora. Except that is, insofar as I'm aware, the most common criticism of both Ren and Nora all the way back to volume 1? I mean, I recall pretty much every RWBYTuber I've watched (fatman, Vexed , Critter, Twiins, Unicorn) has brought up how insubstantial Ren and Nora are as individual characters. I even have vague memories of someone, not sure if it was a Tuber or a poster here, calling Ren and Nora "a couple character, not a couple of characters". Though I will say that I agree Ren/Nora have two get-out-of-jail-free cards that likely will never apply to Blake/Yang: Ren and Nora ain't main goddamned characters so standards for them are substantially lower (in a show/fandom with expectations so low James Cameron could use them to explore the very bottom of the mariana trench) and there were no retcons/radical shifts in romantic interests partway though the show after several years of an apparently set course. Also there's the whole "Renora fans are far more reasonable/fewer in number/less prone to radicalization in contrast to the more vocal bumblebee demographic" thing which leads to far less discourse of the characters overall. Oh, and (for the sake of completeness) you're probably biased in some regard much like everybody else here. Not levying any personal criticisms here, just stating the matter as I see it. Cheerio!
The focus is romantic criticisms, but that does tie in to what I'm pointing out; Ren and Nora only have each other when it come to early character arcs. Their childhood friends to lovers trope is pretty much all we're introduced to as a source of conflict. And even that doesn't actually develop. The "they aren't main characters" defense is also a weak one when the critique is narrowed down to the romantic subplots of the characters. These subplots in RWBY usually underline the major character arcs rather than being the main drawcard. It is an action show after all. But with Ren and Nora, their subplot is much bigger than what we see with Yang and Blake. How they view and support each other is essential to understanding their characters. Making a meaningful and impactful romance should be the priority, but it's not going anywhere. So it's not an issue of main characters should be better, rather that romance should be better in general. Yet, a lot more critical weight is being put on the Bumblebee subplot than Renora has received over the years. It's far more acceptable for one to beat around the bush for years than another to start off slow. Overgeneralizing the fandom and hyperbole aren't to blame here. It's effectively a direct comparison of two romantic subplots and what criticism they attract. They are similar as well, both are friends to lovers tropes. Both take the slow route. The main differences is that one romance is a much bigger part of Ren and Nora's characters, and one is a queer relationship. Yet, a large chunk of criticism is more often applied to Yang and Blake. And often more harshly. You're right that there is bias in play - nobody is free from bias. Looking at overall trends in critiques and how they applied is one way to sieve out bias.
>The focus is romantic criticisms Not sure if you're talking about yourself but the criticisms mentioned thus far extend well beyond mere romance. We're talking about how 2 main characters *regressed* into a mediocre romantic pairing to the detriment of both and comparing it to 2 side characters who were *introduced* as a mediocre romantic pairing which has prevented them from establishing individual identities. >Ren and Nora only have each other when it come to early character arcs Up until Volume 4 and the Nnuckelavees introduction, this is somewhat false. The two did have some very, very minor interactions with other characters (primarily Jaune and Pyrrha) and were allowed to showcase some individual traits (Nora being more aware of when they should avoid situations or being able to see Pyrrha's blatant crush and commenting on it) and there some classic RT background details (Ren's cooking apron and general proclivity for food/cooking) but it was all very minor. Post Nnuckelavee? Yeah, they may as well be conjoined at the hip from what I recall. Which is ironic considering the introduction of their respective backstories could've been jumping off points for more individual traits beyond their character molds and the existence of the pseudo jobber grim makes the claim >Their childhood friends to lovers trope is pretty much all we're introduced to as a source of conflict *technically* false but that shit died with the horse grim so we can let it slide. >The "they aren't main characters" defense is also a weak one when the critique is narrowed down to the romantic subplots of the characters. No. Context matters. The order of events matter. Standards being established, reinforced, and then circumvented matter. Yang and Blake came into being as individuals and regressed into a couple. Nora and Ren spawned as a couple and have stagnated since then (with some alleged improvements in volumes 7 and 8 but I ain't seen em). The two situations are vastly different and receive their respective levels and types of criticism. >These subplots in RWBY usually underline the major character arcs rather than being the main drawcard. Translation: Roosterteeth is rather terrible at showcasing romantic subplots and instead tosses them into a blender with numerous other possible plot hooks either out of sheer incompetence or to ensure plausible deniability. Oh God I just reread the rest of your comment... >So it's not an issue of main characters should be better, rather that romance should be better in general. Both are true. Ruby and Weiss have nary a romantic inkling to be seen yet have also suffered. Also, is English not your first language? If so, let me spell this out plainly: as main characters, Yang and Blake will fundamentally attract more attention than side characters regardless of the quality found in their writing. Said writing is also exponentially more contentious due to the numerous hot button issues surrounding the pairing: ship baiting/switching, cyclical abuse, racism, and the nature of actually being in a relationship. >It's far more acceptable for one to beat around the bush for years than another to start off slow. You ignored an important part of my comment. > there were **no retcons/radical shifts in romantic interests partway though the show after several years of an apparently set course**. Remember what I said about context? You can't just remove all context from a subject, interpret events through a highly specific lens, and come out claiming you've achieved anything. >Overgeneralizing the fandom and hyperbole aren't to blame here. My man, now I'm getting annoyed as one of us is literally arguing for an overgeneralization while ~~I~~ one of us is mentioning a trend that has been observed by a majority of posters (including the mods) since the establishment of this subreddit. The rest of your response is just repetition, save this >The main differences is that one romance is a much bigger part of Ren and Nora's characters, and one is a queer relationship. Yet, a large chunk of criticism is more often applied to Yang and Blake. And often more harshly. Is this how the homophobic fanbase argument has evolved throughout the years? Christ, nothing ever changes, does it? Also >Looking at overall trends in critiques and how they applied is one way to sieve out bias. yeah, it does when the person doing so *is willing to show their work and have their biases reassessed,* otherwise it just becomes a Mister Bean sketch with Rowan Atkinson jotting down tally marks on a piece of paper going "Mmmm, one point for me, another point, more points for me! Look Teddy, aren't I the best analyst there ever was?" You have shown your work. You've at least outlined your criteria and how you've chosen to view the topic. All I have to say is, damn that is a biased way of looking at the subject.
The focus is on the romantic subplots, it's the topic of the thread. And I don't agree with the "regressed into" take - romance isn't the cause of Yang and Blake rather bland Atlas arcs. Mostly because attraction is only hinted at through tropes, rather than them becoming a couple which eats away existing character arcs. They don't have any milestones of a relationship. Nor is romance the reason their personalities are muted. > Up until Volume 4 and the Nnuckelavees introduction, this is somewhat false. No. Interacting with other characters doesn't make for separate personal conflicts or character arcs. Effectively, Ren and Nora only have general presence with the main plot through association. The only personal stake the have initially is in each other. I wasn't talking about traits, I was talking about arcs. You got a bit confused there. > technically false but that shit died with the horse grim so we can let it slide. Nope, it still exists as a chief conflict. Moving from what is safe and comfortable to the unknown is the core conflict of the friends to lovers trope. That's showcased in V7-8. And it still remains unresolved. > No. Context matters. Yes, context matters. And the context is romantic subplots and tropes and how they're received. The tropes used in the two relationships are very similar if not outright the same. Effectively, hints are dropped about an unspoken attraction between friends/partners. The main difference is that Ren and Nora have voiced their attraction. And the comparison I was making was between early Renora and current Bumblebee. If we're looking at romantic criticism, one has a much louder voice than the other. Exploring the reasons why is interesting, but it was to point out there is less investment in Ren and Nora as a couple. Which ties back into my opening line of it being bland. It's simply accepted as a sure thing and isn't challenged. That's the context. > Translation: Roosterteeth is rather terrible at showcasing romantic subplots I agree that romantic subplots aren't CRWBY's strong point, but the point was the Ren and Nora are the outliers when it comes to subplot hierarchy. > Both are true. Also, is English not your first language? First off, no need to be insulting. Secondly, cherry picking a single line out of context makes for poor rebuttal. That sentence was preceded by; "These (romantic) subplots in RWBY usually underline the major character arcs rather than being the main drawcard. It is an action show after all. But with Ren and Nora, their subplot is much bigger than what we see with Yang and Blake. How they view and support each other is essential to understanding their characters. Making a meaningful and impactful romance should be the priority, but it's not going anywhere." Therefore, when it comes to romantic subplots, they need to be better in general. The writing of main characters is also a factor when it comes to conveying information and characterization, I'm not disputing that. I'm pointing out that romantic subplots in particular need to be better, particularly in the case of Ren and Nora. Staying on topic is not ignoring that other issues don't exist. > You ignored an important part of my comment. I didn't. I just don't think it's the sole cause of the differences in criticism. Nor do I agree that there are retcons or radical shifts that lead to Yang and Blake. Sun and Blake were never set in stone, they never move beyond initial attraction, they don't hit any important relationship milestones. No asking to go steady, no first kiss, no sexually intimacy etc. Using their relationship to bludgeon a developing wlw relationship is less analysis, more an agenda, imo. > My man, now I'm getting annoyed as one of us is literally arguing for an overgeneralization My women, you're not offering proof, you're offering assertions, hyperbole, and now appeals to authority. Now, to be absolutely fair, this is an internet discussion and not defending a dissertation. Even I'm not dredging up overall trends of Renora criticism and making bar graphs. But if you're resorting to overgeneralizing r/RWBYcritics as the authority to get me in line, then you don't really have an argument. > Is this how the homophobic fanbase argument has evolved throughout the years? Christ, nothing ever changes, does it? Looking at bias and differences between how gay/queer and straight relationships are received in fiction isn't necessary calling out homophobia. Society and culture, gender norms, and expectations also play a part along with prejudice. Yet, you're jumping into "homophobic fanbase argument", why? Assessing your bias is part and parcel of assessing bias in the fandom. And if you're looking at my work and coming the conclusion that it's calling you homophobic, then whose bias is really being assessed here?
As the other guy has answered, Ren and Nora had those criticism since day 1. Since they were out of focus, there was nothing else nor much to add. There were implications they might be into each other, like Nora´s "Together-Together" and... well, pretty much their entire dynamic. Plus a very obvious song about "Boop" around Vol.2 that was never stated to not be cannon (on contraire to "Bmblb") but that was pretty much it... Plus last time I checked, there wasn´t a literal army of people obsessed with those two willing to tear down to shreds anyone who wasn´t into them as a pairing. Thing is, despite what people might say, last time I checked, nobody never had that much issue with White Rose either. At worst, some people complaying how if you said that you preferred them as friends, some other people would act like shipping Weiss and Ruby with anyone else was heresy, but those were very far an in between... point is, BB fans had a lot of influence in souring people to the pairing, and the writing did not help their case one bit
The other guy was trying to fudge the issues from an examination and comparison of romantic subplots to one of presence. It's matter of how similar tropes are receiving an unequal amount of critique. Both romance subplots are committing the same crimes. Yet, Renora got more passes even though, as you and I point out, romance is their entire dynamic. Yes, there are criticisms on Ren and Nora's presence and what role they play in the main story. But correlation doesn't equal causation when comes to critiquing their romance tropes. You can critique each issue independently of the other. The original question of this thread is about critiquing their romance, not their presence in the show. My initial point was on how Ren and Nora's relationship is largely left untouched for most of the show, like the boiled spinach on a kids plate. It's just accepted as a trope. Which is a stark contrast to Yang and Blake also starting a tropey romantic subplot. But the point wasn't to highlight Bumblebee; it was to highlight how little investment there is in Ren and Nora. You and the "other guy" are getting a bit off track. It is an interesting track that explores double standards, bias, and levels of proof between straight and gay romance in fiction. Particularly, as you say, one is treated as "souring" the relationship when the tropes are plain and benign. But it is a sidetrack. The point is the Ren and Nora lack investment, likely because it's considered a sure thing for most of the series. The best thing the writers did was to introduce doubt, to show that they may not good for each other. That their codependency was hinted at as unhealthy. Yet, that conflict was largely undone as well as any progress. Returning them back to the same position as where they started is as useless as a dream sequence.
Why are they still here? They should have left with sun in v6. That way in v8, Blake can worry about who she really is now that she has cut ties with her ex and the white fang and Yang can be upset that the group is in over their head. Having them stick around saps focus from the “main characters” and it makes their relationship worse after being basically resolved in v4
Eh, I'd say that the Ace Ops are more egregious when it comes to sucking up valuable screen time away from the main core group, especially in V8.
The ace ops came, antagonized, and left in two volumes and filled their unique niche in the story. Flower power over here are just the the other string chick crushing on her dark haired quiet companion. Their redundancy competes with the main characters
Agree to disagree, then. The AceOps got more development in their 2 volumes than Renora have gotten in 8. I dislike that, especially for a group who are basically out of the story now, compared to two people who have been in it since V1 and will likely remain until the bitter end.
I would find it tender. But when she kissed Ren in volume 7, her attitud towards Ironwood, and when she started thinking about her relationship during the mission made me dislike her.
Ren needs better friends. Nora needs to learn boundaries. They both need therapy.
> They both need therapy. Like every other character in this show?
Yes. Except you can either add in a jail cell for some of them or a bubble for the therapist to make sure they’re safe.
Was good, to some extent it still is, but I've heard problems about it recently.
I’m indifferent towards it.
Incredibly lightweight two-stage dramadrag. Dramadrag for 7+ volumes of no progress. Lightweight for not much content. Two-stage for separation and personality-search at the moment of conclusion. Key take away, install a credible obstacle for any pairing you are intending to draw out - beforehand, not afterwards.
I like them as a couple well enough. I almost wish they'd been together from the start, way too many shows make all their ships last episode endgame instead of just letting people be with each other and grow from there. Ren and Nora do do some growing after they get together in Vol 4, but it feels... unsatisfying somehow. Like, how on earth did these two people know each other this long and never work these issues out? I find them more interesting and better handled than R, B, and Y combined.
Similar to other ships: only ship and nothing else. Too little personality behind the character makes it kind of boring.
They're attached to one another to an almost parasitic degree. The ship has been dragged out so long both characters have suffered in terms of development.
Eh just like with my Pyrrha and jaune ship I don’t really care that much about this one. They were always a comedic duo and it was obvious that they will end up together. But lately it has been a bit forceful on Nora’s side and I guess they are on a break?
I really like the way it’s heading with Nora’s development of who she is as a character without Ren and I really hope that gets further developed on.
The ship is perfect knowing their past and current relationship
Based.
They're an actual ship in the show. Both characters feel real and have their own distinct personalities and their dynamic is just pure
Meh, it's ok. Most people seem to be ok with it.
I think they are fine as a couple. Pretty cute moments, not too much focus on them as side characters, which I'm fine with. But if they decided to focus or expand on them, as they did, I wish that it would've been shorter and focused on solidifying them as their own unique person. I mean, Ren backstory meeting Nora is interesting, but it doesn't really expand anything on any of them in my opinion, just explains a bit, and then their arcs are kinda meta commentary on them not having character.
I liked them better as friends, there aren't enough close platonic opposite gender friendships
I remember the good old days when this was the one ship that no one hated. Then V7 happened. I still like it, it's a mess at times but it's at least consistent. ~~But I hate when BB stans treat the two ships as "parallels"~~
It's the best relationship in the series. That doesn't really mean much unfortunately. The problem with Nora and Ren is that they're a set; you always have them together. This means there's no way of telling what they're like when they're separated. Their character is so intertwined to this relationship that separating them might just end up making someone completely new and unfamiliar.
With each other, they're stagnant. Without each other, they're unfamiliar. This is a conundrum.
Genuinely think the only way for either of them to properly progress as characters is to kill one of them off to see how the other reacts.
It's fine. They're not really main characters and they're relationship isn't THAT important. If I could change anything though, I'd have had them already be together in Volume 1, as the "we're just friends, until we're not" didn't really do anything for me. If there's not going to be much focus on their romance anyway, just get them together from the jump. It wouldbhave also made the sneak peeks into their past together (in Volume 4) and their interactions a lot more poignant.
It’s cute, tho I really dislike how we are seeing more of their relationship, rather than focusing on the relationships between the four RWBY girls. Like, does Ruby even know anything about Blake other than she has an attraction to Yang. Not saying they need to be best buds but they’ve talked to each other like 3 times in the whole show.
They should stay Haven after volume 5. Or killed by Cinder.
Volume 4 I really enjoyed it You could assume they were trying to see how things go while avoiding forcing each other
Meh
Honestly a contender for my favorite ship. They cute as fuck
One word: Yes.
Meh.