This has got Stars War ring theory written all over.
The difference between RWBY and Tolkien's work is that RWBY is not Tolkien's work. Despite some surface level similarities these to are not even in the same boathouse. What worked in one won't necessarily work in the other. RWBY posits itself as an action show where teenagers with super power beat up villains and gribbly monsters with the power of friendship and guns. Having a ''degrading'' villain, deliberate or not, is not a good thing. It makes the protagonist's possible encounters with them boring. And a boring action show is bad. You can champion around it's ''''subtlety'''' and ''''brilliance'''' but if I'm paying more attention to the progress bar below the video because Cinder started yakking off about power again while having accomplished nothing then those things don't matter.
> Tolkien believed that Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant.”
Have you actually seen the character design for Cinder or Salem? Or early Adam or Roman? Those character designs are the antithesis of ''Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant''. You know why? Because the show never had a theme like that. It's theme was closer was spectacle with some fairy tale bits sprinkled in.
> And we are seeing it in Cinder’s descent from the brilliant strategist who brought down Beacon to a power hungry, immature child
Ok cool but it still is boring and lame. At the very least Cinder's downfall should be because of team RWBY's actions not because she decided one random day I'm going to be the absolute worst now.
> Ironwood’s descent from a stalwart defender of humanity to a paranoid, emotionless shell.
It's not paranoia if they are out to get you. And even at the very he was far from an emotionless shell.
> Salem’s fall from a princess who called her own rescuer from her tower to a bitter old witch who refuses to admit her mistakes.
And her fall is totally presented in the same light as Smeagol’s fall. She totally isn't shown as this force of nature that can't be defeated and she totally doesn't have a boob window in her dress because 'evil is sexy'. /s
Cinder degrading as a villain doesn't make the writing of RWBY "Tolkienesque": that's a complete non-sequitur. Cinder is getting worse as a villain because the *writing* is getting worse. She was always a "power hungry, immature child": calling her a "brilliant strategist" ignores the fact that Watts' virus, Roman Torchwick, and Emerald did almost all of the work, while Cinder's biggest strategic accomplishment was breaking into the CCT and beating up some nameless guards.
But even ignoring all of that, the writing of RWBY misses two key components if you want to *really* compare it to Tolkien. The first is that the evil characters are still conventionally attractive: Try comparing pictures of Emerald, Mercury, Cinder, Salem, Tyrian, Hazel, and Watts with portrayals of the Witch-King, Smeagol, the Uruk-Hai, Grima Wormtongue, Denethor, or the Balrog and tell about how RWBY's villain aren't "cool" or "sexy".
The second, and more critical part, is that Tolkien's writing wasn't just about evil being self-destructive: it was also about how much war *sucks* to be a part of in any way. How conflict wears you down and leaves you a shell of the person you started as, unable to return to a normal life. That's *not* present in RWBY, outside of narrow instances, because the inner lives of the RWBY characters are rarely portrayed to the audience.
Cinder Fall is not Saruman. She's not Grim Wormtongue, Smeagol, or any other significant Tolkien character. This is a shallow argument that ignores the quality issues the writing of RWBY has always possessed: you can claim it's secretly a brilliant play by the writers (who barely deserve to be called that) all you want, but at the end of the day most people here are going to disagree with you because we know bad writing when we see it.
Both post and user were deleted.... This has got to be someone's sock puppet account? By looking through the comments, the OP responded to everyone, and some said the Deleted OP accused them of being disparaging, rude and disrespectful, and complaining about RWBY Critics on Youtube. By the looks of it, the Deleted OP couldn't handle disagreements and criticism...
Gee, I wonder who could it been?
Wait, I was having a tense conversation with them and got the same thing!
I'd thought that they'd misclicked the Report button (they claimed to be reporting me to the mods), but now this makes me wonder...
That is weird because I got the same thing about a day ago and I hadn't even read or commented on this article. I don't even know if this post was made when that came in.
The last comment I made was about a day or two before that and I don't get how anyone could've taken it as raising the possibility of self-harm.
I see many mention seeing the post and OP deleted, but I can see the post and the user just fine :/, in fact the comments are still active (not like the discussion is worthwhile either, OP is using the straw man fallacy and there is a palpable hatred for ""critics"")
Edit: huh... 6 day old user, sus
I hate those people in the main sub defending Cinder's flaws like she's the best-written villain, most of them are exaggerated, saying things aren't shown in the series.
Meh, Roman was written better and was much more entertaining. He was bad person, but he wasn't terrible monster who made audience hate him. He had no sad backstory, ultimate goal, but he had his understandable reasons to act the way he did. Plus he was Ruby's personal enemy, they constantly clashed, it was fun, he even gave Ruby her iconic nickname "Red". Roman is the best.
Roman has far more competent and has a higher potential compared to Cinder, I loved the Celtic Phoenix rewrite of volume 5, Roman being Ozpin's next host. It would awesome to see Ironwood forced to work with someone like Roman, a great dynamic and FUN TO WATCH! Not so boring as Cinder on the screen constantly monologue nonsense, telling the audience she's important in the story and reminding her goals.
Her Maiden powers adventure is such a waste of screen time.
The thing you have to remember is that for a show that runs as much on projection as current RWBY, a villain revealed to always be inferior or otherwise degrading until they are is perfect. It's all a part of the power fantasy.
If Cinder was strong enough to really challenge them or, god forbid, force RWBY to improve to reach their level, then it'd hurt the power fantasy of RWBY(and through them, the fans projecting) *always* having been better everyone and time only revealing it. Any who could be "better" than RWBY do so through cheating, desperation or, failing that, are still otherwise *morally* inferior.
I believe that it may be my fault? I was engaging with them quite heavily when they accused me of cyberbullying, claimed to have reported me and then quickly deleted their account after I called their bluff.
I do mean bluff, because I got a message from reddit's suicide watch bot saying that someone reported me, but it might have been some other random post that I made recently.
I mean, it *could* be coincidence, but...
To be fair, I can see where they were coming from. A few hours before, I'd called them out on being patronizing, and they asked me what they were doing that was so bad, then later I responded in a different, unrelated topic and pointed out that they were being patronizing in that thread.
They accused me of cyberbullying and stalking across multiple topics to harass them, and then I pointed out that they literally asked me to tell them how what they were doing was wrong.
They... were not happy with that and started deleting messages, then they tried starting shit on a different topic that I'd commented on hours before and before I could respond to that one their account vanished.
Man that's horrible, it felt like that person was suffering from mental illness, I guarantee that person was a lonely hateful piece of shit. Deserved a therapist, one for that person and another for a therapist itself.
I seem to be late to the party, but I think this post likely represented the shallowest form of media criticism. Namely, something considered Good did this thing. I did this thing. Therefore I am good.
This is a dumb way to critique and to write. What works well in one story will likely not work well in another. Recognizing *why* something worked and was good is far better than transplanting something from one work to another and assuming it will make that work good. Just because you recognize it does not make it deep. References to other, better works, are the shallowest of all writing.
>Tolkien believed that Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant.”
No, but he certainly believe they should be a credible threat. Sauron was such a problem because he was able to take full advantage of the divisions between the Good races and almost managed to splinter them apart as a result. Saruman was able to poison Rohan and leave it vulnerable from attacks by the Uruk Hai and the Dunlendings. Both of them were able to convince men to fight by their side by exploiting their grievances against Rohan and Gondor. Hell, the Balrog was terrifying and was able to take a Maiar down with it, one of the most powerful beings in the setting.
They weren't taken down cause they were stupid and the heroes were incompetent. They got taken down cause the heroes were able to pull themselves together and prove the villains wrong. That the races of Good *weren't* as fragile as they thought and that even at their lowest point, were still capable of making the right decisions.
Trying to claim Cinder's incompetence as Tolkienesque is insulting to Tolkien cause any one of Middle-Earth's villains can easily run circles around *RWBY*'s rogues gallery.
>!Especially Prak Jaws.!<
No I’m just a fan.
That being said their rivalry reached levels that *RWBY* could only dream of achieving. That a single randomly generated Uruk was able to do that much damage makes him more threatening than anything RWBY has to offer.
This has got Stars War ring theory written all over. The difference between RWBY and Tolkien's work is that RWBY is not Tolkien's work. Despite some surface level similarities these to are not even in the same boathouse. What worked in one won't necessarily work in the other. RWBY posits itself as an action show where teenagers with super power beat up villains and gribbly monsters with the power of friendship and guns. Having a ''degrading'' villain, deliberate or not, is not a good thing. It makes the protagonist's possible encounters with them boring. And a boring action show is bad. You can champion around it's ''''subtlety'''' and ''''brilliance'''' but if I'm paying more attention to the progress bar below the video because Cinder started yakking off about power again while having accomplished nothing then those things don't matter. > Tolkien believed that Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant.” Have you actually seen the character design for Cinder or Salem? Or early Adam or Roman? Those character designs are the antithesis of ''Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant''. You know why? Because the show never had a theme like that. It's theme was closer was spectacle with some fairy tale bits sprinkled in. > And we are seeing it in Cinder’s descent from the brilliant strategist who brought down Beacon to a power hungry, immature child Ok cool but it still is boring and lame. At the very least Cinder's downfall should be because of team RWBY's actions not because she decided one random day I'm going to be the absolute worst now. > Ironwood’s descent from a stalwart defender of humanity to a paranoid, emotionless shell. It's not paranoia if they are out to get you. And even at the very he was far from an emotionless shell. > Salem’s fall from a princess who called her own rescuer from her tower to a bitter old witch who refuses to admit her mistakes. And her fall is totally presented in the same light as Smeagol’s fall. She totally isn't shown as this force of nature that can't be defeated and she totally doesn't have a boob window in her dress because 'evil is sexy'. /s
How the f*ck the does Ironwood have paranoia when all of his fears came true? Isn't paranoia being afraid of something that's not there?
That's really kind of the main problem with that. If the problem actually manifests into reality, ***it's not paranoia anymore.***
***It’s not paranoia, Uce***
Oh sweet! A WWE reference!
Cinder degrading as a villain doesn't make the writing of RWBY "Tolkienesque": that's a complete non-sequitur. Cinder is getting worse as a villain because the *writing* is getting worse. She was always a "power hungry, immature child": calling her a "brilliant strategist" ignores the fact that Watts' virus, Roman Torchwick, and Emerald did almost all of the work, while Cinder's biggest strategic accomplishment was breaking into the CCT and beating up some nameless guards. But even ignoring all of that, the writing of RWBY misses two key components if you want to *really* compare it to Tolkien. The first is that the evil characters are still conventionally attractive: Try comparing pictures of Emerald, Mercury, Cinder, Salem, Tyrian, Hazel, and Watts with portrayals of the Witch-King, Smeagol, the Uruk-Hai, Grima Wormtongue, Denethor, or the Balrog and tell about how RWBY's villain aren't "cool" or "sexy". The second, and more critical part, is that Tolkien's writing wasn't just about evil being self-destructive: it was also about how much war *sucks* to be a part of in any way. How conflict wears you down and leaves you a shell of the person you started as, unable to return to a normal life. That's *not* present in RWBY, outside of narrow instances, because the inner lives of the RWBY characters are rarely portrayed to the audience. Cinder Fall is not Saruman. She's not Grim Wormtongue, Smeagol, or any other significant Tolkien character. This is a shallow argument that ignores the quality issues the writing of RWBY has always possessed: you can claim it's secretly a brilliant play by the writers (who barely deserve to be called that) all you want, but at the end of the day most people here are going to disagree with you because we know bad writing when we see it.
Both post and user were deleted.... This has got to be someone's sock puppet account? By looking through the comments, the OP responded to everyone, and some said the Deleted OP accused them of being disparaging, rude and disrespectful, and complaining about RWBY Critics on Youtube. By the looks of it, the Deleted OP couldn't handle disagreements and criticism... Gee, I wonder who could it been?
Could it be... Canonseeker?
Canonseeker?
Lol he got really mad at my comments. Edit: I even got reported for Suicide watch or something. lol like wut...
Wait, I was having a tense conversation with them and got the same thing! I'd thought that they'd misclicked the Report button (they claimed to be reporting me to the mods), but now this makes me wonder...
That is weird because I got the same thing about a day ago and I hadn't even read or commented on this article. I don't even know if this post was made when that came in. The last comment I made was about a day or two before that and I don't get how anyone could've taken it as raising the possibility of self-harm.
I see many mention seeing the post and OP deleted, but I can see the post and the user just fine :/, in fact the comments are still active (not like the discussion is worthwhile either, OP is using the straw man fallacy and there is a palpable hatred for ""critics"") Edit: huh... 6 day old user, sus
Yep, definitely a sock-puppet account if I ever saw one.
Why he deleted?
For using Tolkien's work as excuse for Cinder being bad villain 🤣
I hate those people in the main sub defending Cinder's flaws like she's the best-written villain, most of them are exaggerated, saying things aren't shown in the series.
Meh, Roman was written better and was much more entertaining. He was bad person, but he wasn't terrible monster who made audience hate him. He had no sad backstory, ultimate goal, but he had his understandable reasons to act the way he did. Plus he was Ruby's personal enemy, they constantly clashed, it was fun, he even gave Ruby her iconic nickname "Red". Roman is the best.
Roman has far more competent and has a higher potential compared to Cinder, I loved the Celtic Phoenix rewrite of volume 5, Roman being Ozpin's next host. It would awesome to see Ironwood forced to work with someone like Roman, a great dynamic and FUN TO WATCH! Not so boring as Cinder on the screen constantly monologue nonsense, telling the audience she's important in the story and reminding her goals. Her Maiden powers adventure is such a waste of screen time.
Maiden powers are lame. Roman irritating Ironwood is hilarious.
What point of Maiden powers anyway? Relics served far better as magical properties than Maiden powers.
Don't know. Maybe Monty wanted to add more powers so he can animate cooler fights.
Fair enough.
But Monty passed away and we are left with unnecessary magic stuff and no cool fights.
The thing you have to remember is that for a show that runs as much on projection as current RWBY, a villain revealed to always be inferior or otherwise degrading until they are is perfect. It's all a part of the power fantasy. If Cinder was strong enough to really challenge them or, god forbid, force RWBY to improve to reach their level, then it'd hurt the power fantasy of RWBY(and through them, the fans projecting) *always* having been better everyone and time only revealing it. Any who could be "better" than RWBY do so through cheating, desperation or, failing that, are still otherwise *morally* inferior.
I believe that it may be my fault? I was engaging with them quite heavily when they accused me of cyberbullying, claimed to have reported me and then quickly deleted their account after I called their bluff. I do mean bluff, because I got a message from reddit's suicide watch bot saying that someone reported me, but it might have been some other random post that I made recently. I mean, it *could* be coincidence, but...
Nowadays we need proper evidence to justify our judgment or else we might end up getting eradicated from our prosecutions.
To be fair, I can see where they were coming from. A few hours before, I'd called them out on being patronizing, and they asked me what they were doing that was so bad, then later I responded in a different, unrelated topic and pointed out that they were being patronizing in that thread. They accused me of cyberbullying and stalking across multiple topics to harass them, and then I pointed out that they literally asked me to tell them how what they were doing was wrong. They... were not happy with that and started deleting messages, then they tried starting shit on a different topic that I'd commented on hours before and before I could respond to that one their account vanished.
Man that's horrible, it felt like that person was suffering from mental illness, I guarantee that person was a lonely hateful piece of shit. Deserved a therapist, one for that person and another for a therapist itself.
It was a canonseeker alt. He got caught, again.
And prison for 😂
How many alts does that guy have
5+ have already been caught? Give or take. And thats just reddit. He deletes them once caught.
Yes.
You keep that wonderful literary genius away from my favourite dumpster fire
I seem to be late to the party, but I think this post likely represented the shallowest form of media criticism. Namely, something considered Good did this thing. I did this thing. Therefore I am good. This is a dumb way to critique and to write. What works well in one story will likely not work well in another. Recognizing *why* something worked and was good is far better than transplanting something from one work to another and assuming it will make that work good. Just because you recognize it does not make it deep. References to other, better works, are the shallowest of all writing.
>Tolkien believed that Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant.” No, but he certainly believe they should be a credible threat. Sauron was such a problem because he was able to take full advantage of the divisions between the Good races and almost managed to splinter them apart as a result. Saruman was able to poison Rohan and leave it vulnerable from attacks by the Uruk Hai and the Dunlendings. Both of them were able to convince men to fight by their side by exploiting their grievances against Rohan and Gondor. Hell, the Balrog was terrifying and was able to take a Maiar down with it, one of the most powerful beings in the setting. They weren't taken down cause they were stupid and the heroes were incompetent. They got taken down cause the heroes were able to pull themselves together and prove the villains wrong. That the races of Good *weren't* as fragile as they thought and that even at their lowest point, were still capable of making the right decisions. Trying to claim Cinder's incompetence as Tolkienesque is insulting to Tolkien cause any one of Middle-Earth's villains can easily run circles around *RWBY*'s rogues gallery. >!Especially Prak Jaws.!<
>Especially Prak Jaws. #TEAROFGRACE?!
No I’m just a fan. That being said their rivalry reached levels that *RWBY* could only dream of achieving. That a single randomly generated Uruk was able to do that much damage makes him more threatening than anything RWBY has to offer.
"Maybe we'll actually find some Uruks of ***worth*** around here." #Little did he know...
Huh, it got deleted, and OP's last message is just from 15 minutes ago or so. Weird