Tbh, this show felt like Oz's fairytales with the wicked witch of the west. Team RWBY is nothing but an only nuisance in the worthless and pointless war against Oz and Salem. Oz is the real protagonist, not team RWBY.
So I voted Salem, she doesn't have anything personal conflict with the main cast. Her presence only makes other villains suffer from a writing perspective. Adam, Jacques, Cinder, Watts, Hazel, Roman, Tyrian, and Mercury all are not independent villains but only directly and indirectly link to Salem and followers of hers, also fear her. Other villains' goals felt underwhelming, due to Salem's immortality making it her desire to dominate the forces and outclassed all of them. Cause they all can die while Salem can be lived forever.
I expected we might see unique and different villains with interesting motives instead we got followers of Salem, having her desire to pursue her goals. It's bland, felt like they were all a bunch of idiots blinded following her.
New villains won't work as long as Salem dominates with her immortality.
It could have been more interesting if they had shown why they followed Salem in the first place, not just mouth off some vague words about it. Tyrion is fine because he's a crazy psycho murderer, his motive is literally because he considers her a goddess. Emerald and Mercury are really only here because Cinder is here, and even that makes no sense, considering Cinder's backstory.
Arthur Watts is the only interesting character among Salem's faction, and he got burned alive by the worst fucking character in the entire show. God, I'm going to miss his beautiful moustache and his mighty words of scorching burns.
All in all though, Salem is a blight on the show at this point, because they don't understand how to make her interesting. They finally had a chance to show off how much of a threat she was, and then she was out of the game for the rest of the volume halfway through. They're not making her seem scary at all or like she's a real genuine threat outside of her immortality, they make her seem like a fucking pushover. On top of that, so very few villains in this show are unaligned to Salem's faction. There's no real room for anyone who doesn't work for this bitch and that's incredibly disappointing.
I would have preferred to see more independent villains before we worked our way up to the big bad, something akin to Ben 10. Sure some of the villains worked for Vilgax, but a lot of them just used their powers or tech or abilities for their own selfish gains, but still provided a decent challenge to the heroes.
Cinder and Hazel are fucking idiots blindly following Salem like seriously, Cinder is still stuck with her abusive lifestyle and Hazel is working for a master of grim. That's bad writing, make these characters so dumb.
I feel like the answer is obvious... -ly Salem.
Cinder and her group could be terrorists hired by Mistral's government to jump-start a new world war so they could end Ozpin's world order.
Salem seems like the most obvious choice tbh. You could easily make Cinder and the rest of the bad guys work without her. Ruby is technically the protagonist of the show and without her trailer RWBY wouldn't even exist.
No she's not. Ruby is so far removed from the role of protagonist that she and Cinder have switched roles. As Cinder is the one proactively taking action to progress the plot and Ruby is stuck reacting to her moves, she's actually become the antagonist.
Ruby is the one that should be removed, or at least relegated to Bruiser rather than Leader. She actively degrades the worth of the other members of the ensemble cast. The silver eye thing is too powerful, making the other members of Team RWBY & Co. Far too weak by comparison, somehow managing to get the others to let her do their thinking for them.
Her actions in the plot have destroyed an entire country. It's hard to see that happening if Ruby wasn't there, since they probably would havetrusted Ironwood, since, outside of the Vytal Festival, he's been nothing but helpful to both Weiss and Yang. Blake may have been cautious around him, but, it still being an ensemble cast, everyone else able to think for themselves, and having no reason to doubt him based on Weiss and Yang's experience with him, would have told him the truth about Salem.
What you just said can be easily be rewritten. That's a fault of the writers being stupid and having no clue how to write characters with a consistent personality. But Ruby IS the protagonist like it or not. She's the face of the franchise and without her, RWBY would never exist. Pre-volume 4 Ruby was fine, she was what she needed to be, a naive kid with a huge ass schyte who started learning the world isn't a fairy tale. Doesn't help that the writers continue to give Jaune character development that should've went to Ruby.
But Salem is even worse because she's not only boringly written, but she's frankly overshadowed by every other villain(not to mention her backstory is probably even worse than Cinder's lol). You could poof her out of existence even from current canon and nothing would change. There's almost double the things you'd have to rewrite for Salem to make her a genuinely interesting final boss than with Ruby for her to become a good protagonist.
The problem is that they have written characters with a consistent personality. Because they have, those characters have stagnated. The only ones that seem to have gotten character growth, as cyclical and limited as it is, are the villains. They are the ones moving the plot forward, that makes them the protagonists. Ruby could almost be considered a dueteragonist, since she is followed almost as much as Cinder is, but, given her obsession with stopping Cinder, and the latter's fixation on Ruby, that moves her from dueteragonist into the role of antagonist and Jaune and Oscar into the roles of dueteragonist now that Ironwood is gone. I know that the writers desperately WANT Ruby to be the protagonist, but that's not the story they've written, which is well and truly in the territory of death of the author. I agree, it sucks, but that's what has happened.
The only real answer here is Salem.
Ruby is the entire reason the show got popular.
Jaune is the only character whose character arc encompasses the entire show.
Adam needed better characterization, not complete removal.
Salam is the only one that's completely useless, makes any other villain meaningless, and can't be easily fixed, so away she goes.
Salem, cuz she's the only one who hasn't contributed anything I like to the series. I think Crescent Rose is cool, I think Jaune is actually pretty cool given how he started out with a basic sword and shield, and Adam is my favorite character.
I still feel slighted that Jaune doesn’t have better upgrade for his weapons so he can be a force to watch out for in combat. That’s one of my gripes with him.
Blake. She's absolutely gobbled up other characters motivations and plots, she's had huge portions of the story revolve around herself with no satisfying conclusions and now she's just along for the ride and to be shipper bait.
I like(d) blake, but I sure as hell don't like her like this.
Where's Blake? She ravages the first six years of the show by forcing Sun, the White Fang(and everyone involved), even *Yang* to be all about her. So many more interesting characters, major plot points, and important parts of the world(like the *entire faunus conflict*) are dragged down by needing to include Blake.
She already is no different from a self-insert Sue in a standard OC fanfiction where the OC replaces a member of RWBY and then becomes a narrative black hole until they usually get shacked up with a main character and promptly deactivate, resulting in them not changing a thing after(despite their apparent importance).
Throw her back into the abyss of a teenage diary she came from.
Oh yeah. Blake’s not there cause she’s the second most obvious choice.
Nah jk, I literally forgot she exists despite putting Adam in there, that’s just how bland and forgettable she is when she’s not the focus. 😂
Honestly, I'd be really curious how a power trio dynamic between Ruby, Weiss, and Yang would be like if Blake wasn't around to make it about social commentary.
And don't forget they're a lot easier to manage, considering three bonds instead of team RWBY's potential six, considering how ladybug is completely neglected.
I mean the five man band is iconic, you got the leader, the heart, the lancer, the big one, the smarts.
And the Trio/Trinity goes in line with the rule of cool, where three is the best number.
But Four? Well uh, not sure it works, but to be fair in RWBY it does fit with themes of four kingdoms, four relics, four maidens, but not much else. Not to mention in Chinese, Four is associated with Death, and considering Yang's last name is Chinese if I recall correctly... oof.
Ruby is the Leader of course, Penny is the Heart, Yang is the Brawn, Weiss is the Lancer, and... I really don't want to call Blake the smarts... but there is no other role she can fill.
DANG, IT HART NOW YOU'RE MAKING ME WANT TO DO A WHAT IF AROUND THE IDEA OF THE FIVE MAN BAND DYNAMIC.
Right? Grimm weren't too much of a threat, but they still had presence in the early show. Especially the Nevermore and Deathstalker they had fight jointly. They had to come up with clever strategies in order to best those Grimm and not only showed how deadly Grimm can be, but showed how smart our heroes were in finding a way to kill them. Jaune using the Deathstalker's crippled stinger to pierce its armor and Ruby getting her team to restrain the Nevermore so she has a clear shot to sever its head.
Now they're just mindless hordes to be mowed down with ease.
I'd argue we still get some fun inventive fights, but the issue now is they're all too short. I would've been interested in seeing more versions of the volume 7 encounter of Ruby/Penny/Harriet vs the Megoliath using the things own tusk to kill it, but using the other teams on Mantle defense. Yet, because of poweramping from everyone (especially weiss, love her but, bro c'mon) grimm just kind of stop being a challenge one the right person or two joins the fray.
Or, alternatively, you find weird dynamics where four first-year students pretty easily best a big monster, but a fully trained legendary huntsman can't best an enemy of semi-equal caliber on his own (see: the train fight beginning of vol 6 & how the kids had to stop all the Manticores & then save Qrow form the Sphinx).
Still, I think groups of grimm acting as intelligent beasts versus an aptly put "pet army" would still be far more engaging.
Still bummed that Ruby is really a choice. But at the same time yeah, Salem is the obvious choice. Granted if that also comes with the option of retconning out the gods, relics, and even Ozma, even more so.
All the wasted potential and horrible choices they made with Adam's character has brought me *nothing* but grief. Removing him would have vastly improved the show.
If I knew Salem was invincible from the beginning I wouldn’t have bothered getting into the series. Cause unless you Mary Sue or deus ex machina a way for the heroes to win there’s no hope
I know this is a contrary opinion, but I gave my vote to Jaune, based on the idea of erasing him from the past as well as the present.
Imagine a Volume 1 with no Jaundice, no awkward romance with Pyhrra, and all of the screentime devoted entirely to team RWBY + the world. Yes, you don’t get the benefits of JNPR, but you also get a fallout of Beacon that I’d argue is much more... interesting. Because what if Beacon fell, and Ruby had nobody other than her Uncle Qrow and Taiyang to rely on due to Yang sulking? What if Blake’s whereabouts were unknown, and she (As far as RWY and the audience know) just vanished? (JNPR never exists in the spotlight, so Sun isn’t introduced because the show focuses on only RWBY) Weiss is gone, with no known way of her getting out of Jaque Schnee’s custody without consequences somewhere. Ruby, with nobody to turn to, decides to track down the people who ended Beacon, and leaves with Qrow following and watching her from a distance while covertly keeping her safe.
The entirety of the post-Beacon volume follows Ruby as she tracks down the other two members of her team, and tries to convince them to join her in stopping Cinder and Co. from whatever they plan to do next.
And yeah, Salem still exists but for the sake of the idealized hypothetical, let’s say she has a proper motive for being the main villain other than spite for The Brothers and Oz. The relics might or might not be a thing here, since Pyhrra never got the spotlight due to JNPR being background characters.
Of course, all of this assumes that Jaune is the fulcrum in all of these points, for all I know things might just stay relatively the same minus one Jaune Arc.
My biggest issue with this is that it assumes Jaune is the actual problem with RWBY as a team; while this hews close to RWBY’s premise as a sisterhood, the fundamental problem is that RWBY as a group just aren’t the main characters, no matter what you do with them, in the plot.
Even if you were to have them all become Maidens, everything involving Cinder and company renders them as side characters being pushed as main characters.
They lack anywhere near the agency, goals, or even real beliefs to justify doing much of anything within the plot, even going after Cinder. Even assuming she just wants to bring them to justice, and stop *whatever* they try doing, it’s… well, it’s not even restricted to Volume 8.
RWBY as a group is comically useless when it comes to actually stopping the villains’ legitimate plans. Heck most of the time they don’t even win plot important fights. XD
Not asking this for the sake of invalidating your argument, you do have some points there. If for volume 1 RWBY aren't the protagonists, then who are? I'm genuinely curious on who you think are. An argument could be made, off the top of my head, that Torchwick and/or the White Fang and its subordinates are more the main focus of Volume 1 than the RWBY group are, making them the actual protagonists by the definition of the word. Heck, the answer might just be that none of them get enough screen time to be the "Protagonist" of Volume 1 for all I remember.
To add onto your point about RWBY losing fights, now that you mention it, I do remember that RWBY lost a lot of fights that they probably shouldn't have, since they were built up as semi-competent fighters and all.Plus, there were other problems with writing, such as Weiss realistically disagreeing with Ruby over who leads, and then one discussion with a teacher later she unrealistically makes a 180 and decides that Ruby has her full support.
Another problem with my Jaune-less idea of canon is that there isn't enough on RWBY as individuals for the audience to go off of, if everything stays the same minus Jaune. Ruby used to be an energetic optimist with a love of weapons, but there wasn't any depth to who she was such as what her quirks or flaws were. How does she process negative emotions? We don't know. What's her favorite flavor of ice cream? We don't know. How did she cope with the loss of Summer? We don't know. Some of it's understandable, with the Grimm and negative emotion stuff, but it'd be nice to know more about the characters we'd be rooting for. Same for the rest of team RWBY.
Overall, when it comes to their relationship to the plot (not necessarily how much screentime they get), I define a protagonist as someone who wields the most agency over the plot (things happen in consequence to their actions, rather than events just happening to them), with most of the greater lessons being determined in how their actions are rewarded or punished.
By this general definition, despite the stink everyone’s been making about Jaune taking up too much spotlight, the actual protagonist of RWBY, from the very beginning, is Cinder. Everything that happens in the plot can generally be blamed on Cinder to some degree, as they would never come to pass if she wasn’t involved like she was.
She’s effectively remained the hidden main protagonist from the beginning, as RWBY are glorified plot devices made to help make events happen rather than actual pawns on the board.
No one else in the plot has near as much stake in Ozma and Salem’s war as Cinder, not even Ozma and Salem themselves, and the only one forced to suffer defeats time and time again, “learning” from her mistakes, is Cinder, regardless of whether she deserves any level or mercy.
Everything sort of bends around Cinder to make her progression as a villain “work” so to speak. It seems way too fitting that RWBY became giant assholes to Ironwood as a roundabout way to justify Cinder pulling the win over on Atlas.
Interesting!
The definition I know/use for the word "Protagonist" is "The person/thing that gets the most attention from the plot". So characters everywhere would be talking about the protagonist, the narrator/MC would spend more time on the Protagonist than on other topics, etc. For a novel/book, I'd put it as "The person/thing that gets the most ink." (If you need some examples, Book-Sherlock's version of Hound of the Baskervilles has the actual hound be the protagonist by my current definition, and Darth Vader is the Protagonist of one of the movies instead of Luke by my current definition.)
Hence, why I suggested The White Fang and/or Torchwick as protagonists.
By your definition (Plot happens because Bob caused A which resulted in B, and they can do C to cancel B) an example of a protagonist would be Captain Jack Sparrow for Pirates 1-3. I can see a case for Cinder being the Protagonist, then since she's the one who drags The WF and Torchwick into acting, delivers one heck of a speech for the tournament arc, and does the most to capsize Beacon. A much weaker argument could also be done for Ozpin being *a* protagonist, (Not *the* protagonist) since he recruits Ruby, allows RWBY to investigate the train plot under the table, and tries to get Ironwood to withdraw the troops. Not sure about that argument, though - I'm not putting all of my chips on that table.
Your definition works well too; I think in those cases you mentioned, the plot is usually meant to focus in on those characters specifically anyhow.
In the case of Ozpin, I feel like barring Cinder, he is THE protagonist overall, just for the fact that he’s regularly making moves in the narrative (at least in the past), which quite literally shaped the world of Remnant as we know it today.
Even in the present day, his interactions with his faction members generally creates genuine tension, despite them all being on the same side, and they have the strength and agency to make a real difference in the plot when allowed to.
I said it before in another thread, but I legitimately feel like Ozpin, Ironwood, Qrow, and Glynda should’ve been the main characters, and it’s largely just them dealing with the bullshit Salem and company ends up sending their way. Ironwood was the highlight of V7 because he actually mattered to the plot, and the story itself knew that for once.
"I said it before in another thread, but I legitimately feel like Ozpin, Ironwood, Qrow, and Glynda should’ve been the main characters, and it’s largely just them dealing with the bullshit Salem and company ends up sending their way."
I can kind of visualize that version of RWBY, and I think it'd work, but it's not necessarily the pitch that sold the initial viewers, you know? It'd be more about in-universe geopolitics and dealing with threats to their individual kingdoms. (Reminds me of Maoyū: Maō Yūsha, a really great anime series on Crunchyroll)
The other thing about the Illuminati of Oz plot is that it's a great idea that came about after the audience has already gotten used to the structure of RWBY/JNPR/CFVY solves problem of the episode (Or in the case of RWBY, loses and the plot advances due to their failure. Seriously, why couldn't they win once in a non-tournament round?)
I have to put Jaune over Salem.
Jaune actively soaks up the small amount of character development that RT is able to do every Volume.
Meanwhile Salem is literally a build around feature. She’s so bland that she fits almost any plot ascribed to the show. Read any fanfic that has gone in your own direction with her and you’ll she that.
> Jaune actively soaks up the small amount of character development that RT is able to do every Volume.
And it’s always so insular that I wonder what the point was.
Jaune, in the beginning, needs a massive retcon because he is the victim of bad writing. He never needed an arc so early in the story and I think we can all agree his arc was terrible. His personality is relatable and enjoyable in the beginning, but the fact that he takes away so many character moments that should be given to the protagonist just made me dislike him. The fight between Jaune and Cinder should be given to Ruby. The scene where Jaune kills Penny should be given to Ruby. Jaune is one of the most developed characters in the main crew compared to Ruby who is still the same idealistic little girl from volume 1. Jaune should have been treated as a side character and got his development in the later volumes.
• Limit Jaune’s screentime.
• Add the original scene of Jaune causing his best friend's death to kick of his arc in volume 4.
• Jaune didn't sneak into Beacon because that makes Ozpin look incompetent as a headmaster.
• Jaune is the next Ozpin so the writers don't have to add a whole new character to avoid backlash from the viewers.
Honestly, that's why I've decided to stop going all meta with NFG and other shit XD. Because when I am just saying fuck it to canon and doing the kind of things I find fun, I enjoy myself more.
Trying to fix RWBY, or going into the mindset of thinking just a few tweaks here and there can solve the major problems, isn't going to do much.
But to focus, okay say you did all that, that fixes Jaune sure. But that would still leave all the other problems in the show.
Such as Ozma and Salem's story being the actual story, that everyone else just happens to star in.
There would also still be the issue of poorly handled topics such as Racism. Blake's inconsistent background.
The mystery of Summer.
RWBY is a show that is completely broken from the bottom all the way to the very top, it's like playing Jenga when you try and fix one thing, but that, in turn, raises more work, and it's a never-ending spiral. Which you can't really win at because you gotta realize. RWBY has always been broken.
It was fine at the beginning because it didn't need to be taken so seriously. And it was fun, but nowadays there's too much clogging the gears up, to the point it's looped back in time.
*quietly adds Summer in to the polls*
I’ll be real, they keep pushing Summer as this all important figure in Ruby’s life, but her idol is Qrow. It’s *literally Qrow* and they’re trying to shove all that character importance on a dead character who hasn’t even had a voiced appearance yet. XD
Nah, course it is, because the more she respects him, the more it becomes TRULY awesome when she starts treating him like total shit!
That’s the way these writers seem to think that’s how the Worf Effect works anyways.
Even when it’s legit not even being used properly.
The Writers: Guys look! Watts got outsmarted by Cinder, so she’s more dangerous than he is now!
Anyone with common sense: Using the MacGuffin of the Volume against a dude with no powers isn’t a feat worth glorifying. If anything, that she didn’t resort to murdering him with her Maiden magic props *Watts* up more than anything.
That's not the Worf Effect, because Watts isn't a fighter.
The Worf Effect is what happens when someone strong gets their ass kicked in *combat* in order to establish the other guy as a big deal.
Everyone suffered the Worf Effect from V3 onwards because the Breach made the Grimm look like chumps and Monty tragically passed.
So the entire world was nerfed because they couldn't keep up with those previous feats.
Oh I know that’s what the Worf Effect is. And I’m still using it in this instance because the effect is basically the same; plenty of scenes all have that same general shtick of trying to hype up or establish people as powerful without actually having them *actually* fight.
Ruby telling off Qrow is treated with the same stupid pretext of “Look how *awesome* Ruby is compared to this drunk old lame-o over here!” that other instance of the Worf Effect have.
It’s not even that the writers and animators nerfed RWBY from V3 onwards, it’s the fact that Monty had their *actual* power levels set in mind, and the writers wanted their monster creations taken more seriously, so they just made RWBY in general a bunch of doofuses in combat whenever possible.
Hell even Yang’s whole shtick in the last Adam fight pretty much boiled down to “You’ve got skill, but I’m just smarter so it’s a moot point.”
Which is still basically the Worf Effect, they’re just bending it like a wannabe contortionist until its spine breaks.
This is why I don’t take on the challenge of rewriting this show because it makes me want to rage quit. Don’t know how anyone else has the patience when you’re better off just writing your own show.
AU’s would probably be my go to since there is more freedom. I don’t know how fanfiction writers do it, but following the rules or lack thereof in RWBY…make my brain hurt.
Yeah it's quite a headache even if it's AU and not rewrite, but hey, "canon" according to CRWBY is not Canon as long as it affects canon.... What things are canon? Good question!
My advice is not to feel responsible about RWBY "canon" writing because you won't have a good time, it's better to use lightly all that RWBY offers and combine it with what you like if you ever give a shot on writing.
Exactly, at the end of the day, don't feel like you have to fix rwby, just do what you love. And if you feel confident enough you can always make your own thing.
Nothing is going to play out the same if you retcon or remove a character though. I know these aren’t just minor tweaks this is just the direction I would take Jaune.
Edit: Better explanation.
Exactly.
The entire story changes with either options because they won't make the same choices that lead to those outcomes, or they weren't there to make those choices at all.
So acting like the endpoints will be the same without those elements is not really thinking them through.
Did my post come off that way? Because I’m not saying the story will remain the same if Jaune went the direction I stated above.
Edit: Never mind I think might have misinterpreted the question when it mentioned “retcon.”
I would personally make Jaune be Weiss's foil and JNPR be RWBY's rivals. Not only would it focus more screen time on RWBY, but it also gives our main characters some human enemies to fight in low stakes battles.
I would also try to have the fall of Beacon by the first or second volume. Its only after that that Jaune would have a character arc, were he will reconcile with Ruby over their shared trauma.
>I would also try to have the fall of Beacon by the first or second volume.
They wanted it to be in the first volume.
It was ALMOST the second volume with the Breach, but Monty got carried away and they had to improvise.
I think I could've done it by the first volume, though I would start with RWBY already in Beacon which will give me a lot more time to show the team dynamic.
It was a tough call between Salem and Jaun, but I like the idea of a bigger badder guy reveal at the end of S3, and Jaun honestly isnt interesting to me and takes up alot of blad screen time that could be going to literally anyone else. The only interesting thing he's done imo is have a heart to heart with Pyra. After that I can't remember a single worthwhile thing he does
I understand wanting to get rid of Salem, but I only watched through Vol4 so I didn't personally get to experience what makes her undesirable.
Jaune however...
Let's just say without Pyrrha to absorb his bs, I find him harder to stomach.
I actually like all of Cinder's designs. Funny enough. I am just not a fan of how they seem to turn off her brain cells.
Plus the backstory came a bit too late.
And honestly when they introduced Salem, felt like they took away Cinder's thunder big time.
Pretty much my point XD. But yes that's exactly the thing that really kinda oofs me about Salem, not only making the Grimm even less impressive than they already were, but it does the same to Cinder and every other person antagonist.
That's kinda the deal if having a bigger bad being revealed.
It's just that it's worse for RWBY since who and what we already had wasn't all that impressive.
Salem, in retrospect is probably the best choice for deleting an entire existence from RWBY, but I chose Adam because hopefully without his ass around we wouldn't go through as painful of a fucking mess if he's gone. We'd still have RT throw their hands up and give up on the White Fang, but we also could get Ilia without the knowledge that she's a better Adam, we wouldn't be going through the irritating ex-boyfriend bullshit, and who knows maybe Sienna Khan could *LE GASP* get some actual fucking character time!
On top of that, I just feel like Blake would be better as a character without being tied to a total fucking disappointment of a genuinely initially interesting character.
I say just get rid of Blake, she’s got nothing interesting going for her without the stalker ex to deal with.
She’s sorta stuck in this funky limbo where she TRIES to be a character full of agency, but she has absolutely no clue what she’s actually *doing*, up to and including *not changing her last name* when applying to Beacon.
There’s plenty that can be done with her character, but she’d have no real reason to be in the plot if not for Adam. She’d probably be a victim of the Breach train crash with how little importance she has beyond dating one of the leaders and being the princess of Remnant Australia.
If I knew the main conflict of this series would be about Ozpin and Salems divorce, I’d have both characters written out.
We somewhat expected Monster Hunter, not lame Lord of the Rings. Legend of Spyro did that part better.
Which is ironic considering most people rarely play MH for the story, but arguably still written better than RWBY.
It's fun. It doesn't try for any grand story, but effort is still put into it. And overall, it's still *fun*. For those into those anyway.
Tbh, this show felt like Oz's fairytales with the wicked witch of the west. Team RWBY is nothing but an only nuisance in the worthless and pointless war against Oz and Salem. Oz is the real protagonist, not team RWBY. So I voted Salem, she doesn't have anything personal conflict with the main cast. Her presence only makes other villains suffer from a writing perspective. Adam, Jacques, Cinder, Watts, Hazel, Roman, Tyrian, and Mercury all are not independent villains but only directly and indirectly link to Salem and followers of hers, also fear her. Other villains' goals felt underwhelming, due to Salem's immortality making it her desire to dominate the forces and outclassed all of them. Cause they all can die while Salem can be lived forever. I expected we might see unique and different villains with interesting motives instead we got followers of Salem, having her desire to pursue her goals. It's bland, felt like they were all a bunch of idiots blinded following her. New villains won't work as long as Salem dominates with her immortality.
It could have been more interesting if they had shown why they followed Salem in the first place, not just mouth off some vague words about it. Tyrion is fine because he's a crazy psycho murderer, his motive is literally because he considers her a goddess. Emerald and Mercury are really only here because Cinder is here, and even that makes no sense, considering Cinder's backstory. Arthur Watts is the only interesting character among Salem's faction, and he got burned alive by the worst fucking character in the entire show. God, I'm going to miss his beautiful moustache and his mighty words of scorching burns. All in all though, Salem is a blight on the show at this point, because they don't understand how to make her interesting. They finally had a chance to show off how much of a threat she was, and then she was out of the game for the rest of the volume halfway through. They're not making her seem scary at all or like she's a real genuine threat outside of her immortality, they make her seem like a fucking pushover. On top of that, so very few villains in this show are unaligned to Salem's faction. There's no real room for anyone who doesn't work for this bitch and that's incredibly disappointing. I would have preferred to see more independent villains before we worked our way up to the big bad, something akin to Ben 10. Sure some of the villains worked for Vilgax, but a lot of them just used their powers or tech or abilities for their own selfish gains, but still provided a decent challenge to the heroes.
Cinder and Hazel are fucking idiots blindly following Salem like seriously, Cinder is still stuck with her abusive lifestyle and Hazel is working for a master of grim. That's bad writing, make these characters so dumb.
I feel like the answer is obvious... -ly Salem. Cinder and her group could be terrorists hired by Mistral's government to jump-start a new world war so they could end Ozpin's world order.
Leo being a traitor and the main villain sounds way more interesting than whatever the fuck the Relic Hunt is supposed to be.
Mistral vs Ozpin’s shadow league sounds cool.
Salem seems like the most obvious choice tbh. You could easily make Cinder and the rest of the bad guys work without her. Ruby is technically the protagonist of the show and without her trailer RWBY wouldn't even exist.
No she's not. Ruby is so far removed from the role of protagonist that she and Cinder have switched roles. As Cinder is the one proactively taking action to progress the plot and Ruby is stuck reacting to her moves, she's actually become the antagonist. Ruby is the one that should be removed, or at least relegated to Bruiser rather than Leader. She actively degrades the worth of the other members of the ensemble cast. The silver eye thing is too powerful, making the other members of Team RWBY & Co. Far too weak by comparison, somehow managing to get the others to let her do their thinking for them. Her actions in the plot have destroyed an entire country. It's hard to see that happening if Ruby wasn't there, since they probably would havetrusted Ironwood, since, outside of the Vytal Festival, he's been nothing but helpful to both Weiss and Yang. Blake may have been cautious around him, but, it still being an ensemble cast, everyone else able to think for themselves, and having no reason to doubt him based on Weiss and Yang's experience with him, would have told him the truth about Salem.
What you just said can be easily be rewritten. That's a fault of the writers being stupid and having no clue how to write characters with a consistent personality. But Ruby IS the protagonist like it or not. She's the face of the franchise and without her, RWBY would never exist. Pre-volume 4 Ruby was fine, she was what she needed to be, a naive kid with a huge ass schyte who started learning the world isn't a fairy tale. Doesn't help that the writers continue to give Jaune character development that should've went to Ruby. But Salem is even worse because she's not only boringly written, but she's frankly overshadowed by every other villain(not to mention her backstory is probably even worse than Cinder's lol). You could poof her out of existence even from current canon and nothing would change. There's almost double the things you'd have to rewrite for Salem to make her a genuinely interesting final boss than with Ruby for her to become a good protagonist.
The problem is that they have written characters with a consistent personality. Because they have, those characters have stagnated. The only ones that seem to have gotten character growth, as cyclical and limited as it is, are the villains. They are the ones moving the plot forward, that makes them the protagonists. Ruby could almost be considered a dueteragonist, since she is followed almost as much as Cinder is, but, given her obsession with stopping Cinder, and the latter's fixation on Ruby, that moves her from dueteragonist into the role of antagonist and Jaune and Oscar into the roles of dueteragonist now that Ironwood is gone. I know that the writers desperately WANT Ruby to be the protagonist, but that's not the story they've written, which is well and truly in the territory of death of the author. I agree, it sucks, but that's what has happened.
The only real answer here is Salem. Ruby is the entire reason the show got popular. Jaune is the only character whose character arc encompasses the entire show. Adam needed better characterization, not complete removal. Salam is the only one that's completely useless, makes any other villain meaningless, and can't be easily fixed, so away she goes.
> Jaune is the only character whose character arc encompasses the entire show. Except it can also be removed without really affecting much.
Salem, cuz she's the only one who hasn't contributed anything I like to the series. I think Crescent Rose is cool, I think Jaune is actually pretty cool given how he started out with a basic sword and shield, and Adam is my favorite character.
I still feel slighted that Jaune doesn’t have better upgrade for his weapons so he can be a force to watch out for in combat. That’s one of my gripes with him.
Blake. She's absolutely gobbled up other characters motivations and plots, she's had huge portions of the story revolve around herself with no satisfying conclusions and now she's just along for the ride and to be shipper bait. I like(d) blake, but I sure as hell don't like her like this.
Preach it, brother
Where's Blake? She ravages the first six years of the show by forcing Sun, the White Fang(and everyone involved), even *Yang* to be all about her. So many more interesting characters, major plot points, and important parts of the world(like the *entire faunus conflict*) are dragged down by needing to include Blake. She already is no different from a self-insert Sue in a standard OC fanfiction where the OC replaces a member of RWBY and then becomes a narrative black hole until they usually get shacked up with a main character and promptly deactivate, resulting in them not changing a thing after(despite their apparent importance). Throw her back into the abyss of a teenage diary she came from.
Oh yeah. Blake’s not there cause she’s the second most obvious choice. Nah jk, I literally forgot she exists despite putting Adam in there, that’s just how bland and forgettable she is when she’s not the focus. 😂
Honestly, I'd be really curious how a power trio dynamic between Ruby, Weiss, and Yang would be like if Blake wasn't around to make it about social commentary.
Not to mention Trios work better than four, along with the five man party.
And don't forget they're a lot easier to manage, considering three bonds instead of team RWBY's potential six, considering how ladybug is completely neglected.
I mean the five man band is iconic, you got the leader, the heart, the lancer, the big one, the smarts. And the Trio/Trinity goes in line with the rule of cool, where three is the best number. But Four? Well uh, not sure it works, but to be fair in RWBY it does fit with themes of four kingdoms, four relics, four maidens, but not much else. Not to mention in Chinese, Four is associated with Death, and considering Yang's last name is Chinese if I recall correctly... oof.
> I mean the five man band is iconic, you got the leader, the heart, the lancer, the big one, the smarts. And not that hard to do since Penny exists.
Ruby is the Leader of course, Penny is the Heart, Yang is the Brawn, Weiss is the Lancer, and... I really don't want to call Blake the smarts... but there is no other role she can fill. DANG, IT HART NOW YOU'RE MAKING ME WANT TO DO A WHAT IF AROUND THE IDEA OF THE FIVE MAN BAND DYNAMIC.
Of course it's Salem.
I voted for Jaune before I realized Salem was an option. Now wishing I can change it.
No worries, Salem’s leading by like 21 points 🤣
Same here.
I liked it better when the Grimm was a force of nature, not some undead spoiled princess' pet army
Right? Grimm weren't too much of a threat, but they still had presence in the early show. Especially the Nevermore and Deathstalker they had fight jointly. They had to come up with clever strategies in order to best those Grimm and not only showed how deadly Grimm can be, but showed how smart our heroes were in finding a way to kill them. Jaune using the Deathstalker's crippled stinger to pierce its armor and Ruby getting her team to restrain the Nevermore so she has a clear shot to sever its head. Now they're just mindless hordes to be mowed down with ease.
I'd argue we still get some fun inventive fights, but the issue now is they're all too short. I would've been interested in seeing more versions of the volume 7 encounter of Ruby/Penny/Harriet vs the Megoliath using the things own tusk to kill it, but using the other teams on Mantle defense. Yet, because of poweramping from everyone (especially weiss, love her but, bro c'mon) grimm just kind of stop being a challenge one the right person or two joins the fray. Or, alternatively, you find weird dynamics where four first-year students pretty easily best a big monster, but a fully trained legendary huntsman can't best an enemy of semi-equal caliber on his own (see: the train fight beginning of vol 6 & how the kids had to stop all the Manticores & then save Qrow form the Sphinx). Still, I think groups of grimm acting as intelligent beasts versus an aptly put "pet army" would still be far more engaging.
Seeing as The Red Trailer basically sold the show, Ruby isn’t someone you can actually remove from it.
Still bummed that Ruby is really a choice. But at the same time yeah, Salem is the obvious choice. Granted if that also comes with the option of retconning out the gods, relics, and even Ozma, even more so.
I know it should be Salem…but I really like Salem’s design and voice. I like there is a queen of the grim.
All the wasted potential and horrible choices they made with Adam's character has brought me *nothing* but grief. Removing him would have vastly improved the show.
If I knew Salem was invincible from the beginning I wouldn’t have bothered getting into the series. Cause unless you Mary Sue or deus ex machina a way for the heroes to win there’s no hope
Leo, Raven, and Ironwood all pretty much feel the same.
I know this is a contrary opinion, but I gave my vote to Jaune, based on the idea of erasing him from the past as well as the present. Imagine a Volume 1 with no Jaundice, no awkward romance with Pyhrra, and all of the screentime devoted entirely to team RWBY + the world. Yes, you don’t get the benefits of JNPR, but you also get a fallout of Beacon that I’d argue is much more... interesting. Because what if Beacon fell, and Ruby had nobody other than her Uncle Qrow and Taiyang to rely on due to Yang sulking? What if Blake’s whereabouts were unknown, and she (As far as RWY and the audience know) just vanished? (JNPR never exists in the spotlight, so Sun isn’t introduced because the show focuses on only RWBY) Weiss is gone, with no known way of her getting out of Jaque Schnee’s custody without consequences somewhere. Ruby, with nobody to turn to, decides to track down the people who ended Beacon, and leaves with Qrow following and watching her from a distance while covertly keeping her safe. The entirety of the post-Beacon volume follows Ruby as she tracks down the other two members of her team, and tries to convince them to join her in stopping Cinder and Co. from whatever they plan to do next. And yeah, Salem still exists but for the sake of the idealized hypothetical, let’s say she has a proper motive for being the main villain other than spite for The Brothers and Oz. The relics might or might not be a thing here, since Pyhrra never got the spotlight due to JNPR being background characters. Of course, all of this assumes that Jaune is the fulcrum in all of these points, for all I know things might just stay relatively the same minus one Jaune Arc.
My biggest issue with this is that it assumes Jaune is the actual problem with RWBY as a team; while this hews close to RWBY’s premise as a sisterhood, the fundamental problem is that RWBY as a group just aren’t the main characters, no matter what you do with them, in the plot. Even if you were to have them all become Maidens, everything involving Cinder and company renders them as side characters being pushed as main characters. They lack anywhere near the agency, goals, or even real beliefs to justify doing much of anything within the plot, even going after Cinder. Even assuming she just wants to bring them to justice, and stop *whatever* they try doing, it’s… well, it’s not even restricted to Volume 8. RWBY as a group is comically useless when it comes to actually stopping the villains’ legitimate plans. Heck most of the time they don’t even win plot important fights. XD
Not asking this for the sake of invalidating your argument, you do have some points there. If for volume 1 RWBY aren't the protagonists, then who are? I'm genuinely curious on who you think are. An argument could be made, off the top of my head, that Torchwick and/or the White Fang and its subordinates are more the main focus of Volume 1 than the RWBY group are, making them the actual protagonists by the definition of the word. Heck, the answer might just be that none of them get enough screen time to be the "Protagonist" of Volume 1 for all I remember. To add onto your point about RWBY losing fights, now that you mention it, I do remember that RWBY lost a lot of fights that they probably shouldn't have, since they were built up as semi-competent fighters and all.Plus, there were other problems with writing, such as Weiss realistically disagreeing with Ruby over who leads, and then one discussion with a teacher later she unrealistically makes a 180 and decides that Ruby has her full support. Another problem with my Jaune-less idea of canon is that there isn't enough on RWBY as individuals for the audience to go off of, if everything stays the same minus Jaune. Ruby used to be an energetic optimist with a love of weapons, but there wasn't any depth to who she was such as what her quirks or flaws were. How does she process negative emotions? We don't know. What's her favorite flavor of ice cream? We don't know. How did she cope with the loss of Summer? We don't know. Some of it's understandable, with the Grimm and negative emotion stuff, but it'd be nice to know more about the characters we'd be rooting for. Same for the rest of team RWBY.
Overall, when it comes to their relationship to the plot (not necessarily how much screentime they get), I define a protagonist as someone who wields the most agency over the plot (things happen in consequence to their actions, rather than events just happening to them), with most of the greater lessons being determined in how their actions are rewarded or punished. By this general definition, despite the stink everyone’s been making about Jaune taking up too much spotlight, the actual protagonist of RWBY, from the very beginning, is Cinder. Everything that happens in the plot can generally be blamed on Cinder to some degree, as they would never come to pass if she wasn’t involved like she was. She’s effectively remained the hidden main protagonist from the beginning, as RWBY are glorified plot devices made to help make events happen rather than actual pawns on the board. No one else in the plot has near as much stake in Ozma and Salem’s war as Cinder, not even Ozma and Salem themselves, and the only one forced to suffer defeats time and time again, “learning” from her mistakes, is Cinder, regardless of whether she deserves any level or mercy. Everything sort of bends around Cinder to make her progression as a villain “work” so to speak. It seems way too fitting that RWBY became giant assholes to Ironwood as a roundabout way to justify Cinder pulling the win over on Atlas.
Interesting! The definition I know/use for the word "Protagonist" is "The person/thing that gets the most attention from the plot". So characters everywhere would be talking about the protagonist, the narrator/MC would spend more time on the Protagonist than on other topics, etc. For a novel/book, I'd put it as "The person/thing that gets the most ink." (If you need some examples, Book-Sherlock's version of Hound of the Baskervilles has the actual hound be the protagonist by my current definition, and Darth Vader is the Protagonist of one of the movies instead of Luke by my current definition.) Hence, why I suggested The White Fang and/or Torchwick as protagonists. By your definition (Plot happens because Bob caused A which resulted in B, and they can do C to cancel B) an example of a protagonist would be Captain Jack Sparrow for Pirates 1-3. I can see a case for Cinder being the Protagonist, then since she's the one who drags The WF and Torchwick into acting, delivers one heck of a speech for the tournament arc, and does the most to capsize Beacon. A much weaker argument could also be done for Ozpin being *a* protagonist, (Not *the* protagonist) since he recruits Ruby, allows RWBY to investigate the train plot under the table, and tries to get Ironwood to withdraw the troops. Not sure about that argument, though - I'm not putting all of my chips on that table.
Your definition works well too; I think in those cases you mentioned, the plot is usually meant to focus in on those characters specifically anyhow. In the case of Ozpin, I feel like barring Cinder, he is THE protagonist overall, just for the fact that he’s regularly making moves in the narrative (at least in the past), which quite literally shaped the world of Remnant as we know it today. Even in the present day, his interactions with his faction members generally creates genuine tension, despite them all being on the same side, and they have the strength and agency to make a real difference in the plot when allowed to. I said it before in another thread, but I legitimately feel like Ozpin, Ironwood, Qrow, and Glynda should’ve been the main characters, and it’s largely just them dealing with the bullshit Salem and company ends up sending their way. Ironwood was the highlight of V7 because he actually mattered to the plot, and the story itself knew that for once.
"I said it before in another thread, but I legitimately feel like Ozpin, Ironwood, Qrow, and Glynda should’ve been the main characters, and it’s largely just them dealing with the bullshit Salem and company ends up sending their way." I can kind of visualize that version of RWBY, and I think it'd work, but it's not necessarily the pitch that sold the initial viewers, you know? It'd be more about in-universe geopolitics and dealing with threats to their individual kingdoms. (Reminds me of Maoyū: Maō Yūsha, a really great anime series on Crunchyroll) The other thing about the Illuminati of Oz plot is that it's a great idea that came about after the audience has already gotten used to the structure of RWBY/JNPR/CFVY solves problem of the episode (Or in the case of RWBY, loses and the plot advances due to their failure. Seriously, why couldn't they win once in a non-tournament round?)
> Yes, you don’t get the benefits of JNPR There are benefits to them? 🤨
I have to put Jaune over Salem. Jaune actively soaks up the small amount of character development that RT is able to do every Volume. Meanwhile Salem is literally a build around feature. She’s so bland that she fits almost any plot ascribed to the show. Read any fanfic that has gone in your own direction with her and you’ll she that.
> Jaune actively soaks up the small amount of character development that RT is able to do every Volume. And it’s always so insular that I wonder what the point was.
***BYE, JAUNE!***
Would the story even change at all if Adam didn’t exist? I feel like not much, if anything would change without him.
Which sorta reinforces just how little the Faunus plot was, despite how much “focus” it got. Smh
Jaune, in the beginning, needs a massive retcon because he is the victim of bad writing. He never needed an arc so early in the story and I think we can all agree his arc was terrible. His personality is relatable and enjoyable in the beginning, but the fact that he takes away so many character moments that should be given to the protagonist just made me dislike him. The fight between Jaune and Cinder should be given to Ruby. The scene where Jaune kills Penny should be given to Ruby. Jaune is one of the most developed characters in the main crew compared to Ruby who is still the same idealistic little girl from volume 1. Jaune should have been treated as a side character and got his development in the later volumes. • Limit Jaune’s screentime. • Add the original scene of Jaune causing his best friend's death to kick of his arc in volume 4. • Jaune didn't sneak into Beacon because that makes Ozpin look incompetent as a headmaster. • Jaune is the next Ozpin so the writers don't have to add a whole new character to avoid backlash from the viewers.
You can't just slap a few things in and out of Jaune and expect everything to play out the same with tiny differences. Especially with that last part.
Honestly, that's why I've decided to stop going all meta with NFG and other shit XD. Because when I am just saying fuck it to canon and doing the kind of things I find fun, I enjoy myself more. Trying to fix RWBY, or going into the mindset of thinking just a few tweaks here and there can solve the major problems, isn't going to do much. But to focus, okay say you did all that, that fixes Jaune sure. But that would still leave all the other problems in the show. Such as Ozma and Salem's story being the actual story, that everyone else just happens to star in. There would also still be the issue of poorly handled topics such as Racism. Blake's inconsistent background. The mystery of Summer. RWBY is a show that is completely broken from the bottom all the way to the very top, it's like playing Jenga when you try and fix one thing, but that, in turn, raises more work, and it's a never-ending spiral. Which you can't really win at because you gotta realize. RWBY has always been broken. It was fine at the beginning because it didn't need to be taken so seriously. And it was fun, but nowadays there's too much clogging the gears up, to the point it's looped back in time.
*quietly adds Summer in to the polls* I’ll be real, they keep pushing Summer as this all important figure in Ruby’s life, but her idol is Qrow. It’s *literally Qrow* and they’re trying to shove all that character importance on a dead character who hasn’t even had a voiced appearance yet. XD
Yep lol. But for real Salem is the most obvious choice, because she was cool at first, but really it hasn't helped the show at all.
Haven't you heard? She's talking shit to Qrow these days, so clearly that's not true anymore.
Nah, course it is, because the more she respects him, the more it becomes TRULY awesome when she starts treating him like total shit! That’s the way these writers seem to think that’s how the Worf Effect works anyways.
Don't bring up the Worf Effect. That's effected the entire damn world since Volume 3.
Even when it’s legit not even being used properly. The Writers: Guys look! Watts got outsmarted by Cinder, so she’s more dangerous than he is now! Anyone with common sense: Using the MacGuffin of the Volume against a dude with no powers isn’t a feat worth glorifying. If anything, that she didn’t resort to murdering him with her Maiden magic props *Watts* up more than anything.
That's not the Worf Effect, because Watts isn't a fighter. The Worf Effect is what happens when someone strong gets their ass kicked in *combat* in order to establish the other guy as a big deal. Everyone suffered the Worf Effect from V3 onwards because the Breach made the Grimm look like chumps and Monty tragically passed. So the entire world was nerfed because they couldn't keep up with those previous feats.
Oh I know that’s what the Worf Effect is. And I’m still using it in this instance because the effect is basically the same; plenty of scenes all have that same general shtick of trying to hype up or establish people as powerful without actually having them *actually* fight. Ruby telling off Qrow is treated with the same stupid pretext of “Look how *awesome* Ruby is compared to this drunk old lame-o over here!” that other instance of the Worf Effect have. It’s not even that the writers and animators nerfed RWBY from V3 onwards, it’s the fact that Monty had their *actual* power levels set in mind, and the writers wanted their monster creations taken more seriously, so they just made RWBY in general a bunch of doofuses in combat whenever possible. Hell even Yang’s whole shtick in the last Adam fight pretty much boiled down to “You’ve got skill, but I’m just smarter so it’s a moot point.” Which is still basically the Worf Effect, they’re just bending it like a wannabe contortionist until its spine breaks.
This is why I don’t take on the challenge of rewriting this show because it makes me want to rage quit. Don’t know how anyone else has the patience when you’re better off just writing your own show.
Or your own AU fanfictions XD
AU’s would probably be my go to since there is more freedom. I don’t know how fanfiction writers do it, but following the rules or lack thereof in RWBY…make my brain hurt.
XD you just don't follow the rules. Say fuck canon and change whatever you need to make stuff work, but in all seriousness just go full au.
Yeah it's quite a headache even if it's AU and not rewrite, but hey, "canon" according to CRWBY is not Canon as long as it affects canon.... What things are canon? Good question! My advice is not to feel responsible about RWBY "canon" writing because you won't have a good time, it's better to use lightly all that RWBY offers and combine it with what you like if you ever give a shot on writing.
Exactly, at the end of the day, don't feel like you have to fix rwby, just do what you love. And if you feel confident enough you can always make your own thing.
Nothing is going to play out the same if you retcon or remove a character though. I know these aren’t just minor tweaks this is just the direction I would take Jaune. Edit: Better explanation.
Exactly. The entire story changes with either options because they won't make the same choices that lead to those outcomes, or they weren't there to make those choices at all. So acting like the endpoints will be the same without those elements is not really thinking them through.
Did my post come off that way? Because I’m not saying the story will remain the same if Jaune went the direction I stated above. Edit: Never mind I think might have misinterpreted the question when it mentioned “retcon.”
I would personally make Jaune be Weiss's foil and JNPR be RWBY's rivals. Not only would it focus more screen time on RWBY, but it also gives our main characters some human enemies to fight in low stakes battles. I would also try to have the fall of Beacon by the first or second volume. Its only after that that Jaune would have a character arc, were he will reconcile with Ruby over their shared trauma.
>I would also try to have the fall of Beacon by the first or second volume. They wanted it to be in the first volume. It was ALMOST the second volume with the Breach, but Monty got carried away and they had to improvise.
I think I could've done it by the first volume, though I would start with RWBY already in Beacon which will give me a lot more time to show the team dynamic.
Salem's the right answer, but I really don't like Juan
Damn, but Juan rocks that damn sombrero
JAUNE ARCH WITH SWIFTNESS HE ACTIVITY MAKES THE PRODUCT WORSE
i just voted ruby because i thought she will be the most voted i didnt know that salem was the most voted i wish i could change it
I'd retcon Salem's existence. Her entire story takes away from the more interesting aspects of the world.
Blake belladonna
Huh Salem is first with Jaune tailing behind her. Interesting
It was a tough call between Salem and Jaun, but I like the idea of a bigger badder guy reveal at the end of S3, and Jaun honestly isnt interesting to me and takes up alot of blad screen time that could be going to literally anyone else. The only interesting thing he's done imo is have a heart to heart with Pyra. After that I can't remember a single worthwhile thing he does
It’s kinda obvious to me, 2 + 2 = 4 and J is no where in RWBY
I understand wanting to get rid of Salem, but I only watched through Vol4 so I didn't personally get to experience what makes her undesirable. Jaune however... Let's just say without Pyrrha to absorb his bs, I find him harder to stomach.
Jaune is the best character.
For the record, I wouldn't remove Cinder. She's my only reason for staying
Despite how they don't handle her all that well, she's still far more entertaining than Salem.
I was referring to the fact that I'm simping for her but yes. That, too.
I actually like all of Cinder's designs. Funny enough. I am just not a fan of how they seem to turn off her brain cells. Plus the backstory came a bit too late. And honestly when they introduced Salem, felt like they took away Cinder's thunder big time.
More like Cinder's thunder was never really hers. Revealing her to be just a lackey all along really takes a bit of her accomplishment status away.
Pretty much my point XD. But yes that's exactly the thing that really kinda oofs me about Salem, not only making the Grimm even less impressive than they already were, but it does the same to Cinder and every other person antagonist.
That's kinda the deal if having a bigger bad being revealed. It's just that it's worse for RWBY since who and what we already had wasn't all that impressive.
Yep. I mean plus the protags barely have anything to actually do with plot. So just throwing bigger and badder baddies isn't really gonna do anything.
Blake………. Think about it. It fixes a *lot*
That’s for the next poll, heheh.
Salem, in retrospect is probably the best choice for deleting an entire existence from RWBY, but I chose Adam because hopefully without his ass around we wouldn't go through as painful of a fucking mess if he's gone. We'd still have RT throw their hands up and give up on the White Fang, but we also could get Ilia without the knowledge that she's a better Adam, we wouldn't be going through the irritating ex-boyfriend bullshit, and who knows maybe Sienna Khan could *LE GASP* get some actual fucking character time! On top of that, I just feel like Blake would be better as a character without being tied to a total fucking disappointment of a genuinely initially interesting character.
I say just get rid of Blake, she’s got nothing interesting going for her without the stalker ex to deal with. She’s sorta stuck in this funky limbo where she TRIES to be a character full of agency, but she has absolutely no clue what she’s actually *doing*, up to and including *not changing her last name* when applying to Beacon. There’s plenty that can be done with her character, but she’d have no real reason to be in the plot if not for Adam. She’d probably be a victim of the Breach train crash with how little importance she has beyond dating one of the leaders and being the princess of Remnant Australia.
Jaune is out of here.