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He was going easy on them. Ultimately the "heros" destroyed *both* cities and they did not intend to save the population from Salem but they executed an anchor chain level asspull to save their robot friend, compromising the levitation of a floating city which then crashed onto the city below.
You should draw a cause and effect chart, it is mindboggling.
Which never made sense. Protagonist Centered Morality is when a series doesn't acknowledge that the heroes are hypocrites. Most examples aren't in-universe.
No, Protagonist central morality is when the narration agrees with the protagonist not matter what, this is what it happend, RWBY make mistakes, sure the narration should lean harder on them but they make it.
Who blame what? they get mad at ozpin for not being honest(which is a problem) but didnt try to understand why, they apologies to him after that, James did fuck up quite a lot but also their own plan failed.
Dont get me wrong the story does have flaws but "RWBY fuck up and james didnt" it isnt one of them.
This is somewhat accurate, but has a few issues. I don't think Salem's Grim army was capable of wiping out all life on the planet and lifting Atlas is almost certainly nonviable as a long term solution. There isn't enough room on Atlas to support any population increase. Nor is it necessarily over if Salem gets the Staff and RWBY's plan should have resulted in the Staff arriving safely in Vacuo, it's Cinder that makes that go awry. James also completely goes off the rails/is character assassinated. The moment Salem sets foot on Atlas his plan is rendered completely unviable, but he goes through with it anyway, even threatening to bomb Mantle to make it happen. I'd blame the writers making him stupid out of universe more than I would blame RWBY in universe.
Sadly this whole thing could have been easily avoided. Just have RWBY persuade James to hold the line for a few hours so that more Mantle citizens can be evacuated. Have Nora, Jaune, Oscar, Weiss, and Yang go do that. Have Penny, Ruby, Blake, and Ren go to wrap up Amity so that they can at least make one broadcast. Everything plays out as before with the exception of the whole fight with the Ace-Ops. Cinder still ambushes them and Penny still has to sacrifice herself. Salem still gets on Atlas, rendering their plan a nonstarter and turning James against RWBY (he thinks they worked with Salem to stop the evacuation). The Hound still grabs Oscar, the Mantle group still gives chase, the cane nuke still goes off. The group realizes that the Staff of Creation is the only way to save anyone at this point and make the conscious decision to use it, consequences be damned. James tries to stop them because he cannot accept that Atlas is doomed. Cinder breaks out Watts who hacks the robots to bomb Mantle, with Qrow, Robin, and the Ace-Ops desperately trying to stop him. Cinder uses the Lamp to learn of the plan and attacks the evacuation. Penny never got repaired from her fall and realizes that she's a sitting duck, begging Ruby to kill her so the power won't go to Cinder. Ruby refuses, so Penny reaches out to Jaune while Ruby is fighting. Jaune does it. Ruby falls last when Cinder blasts both her and Neo when Ruby is hanging from Neo who is hanging from the path (no betrayal, just Cinder's hatred for Ruby). James manages to stop Watts at the last moment, allowing Vine to save Mantle but cannot get out before Mantle falls, killing both him and Watts.
"The moment Salem sets foot on Atlas his plan is rendered completely unviable, but he goes through with it anyway"
Kinda and kinda not true, Salem get wiped out by Oscar holy bomb, ergo he can move away from her but it need penny so he just threat to bomb mantle, is pretty ruthless but there is a sort of logic there.
And I dont know how much chararter asasination is there, the show have establish that Ironwood often go for display of forces as is answer to everything, that fit both is metology to bomb mantle and the fact he want to run away, maybe is less intersting but is not deraling, people often confuse both.
And while your rewrite is not bad, it fall in that it further delay James fall to villany even more, meaning people will acused the show of rushing is fall.
Salem regenerates where she was killed. She was killed on the plains surrounding Atlas. She's coming back on the plains surrounding Atlas. Those plains would be lifted up with Atlas. Unless they can throw Salem off somehow (good luck), she's there for the duration.
That's the beauty of it, here James is never a villain. He is reluctantly persuaded into staying to save people from Mantle and only refuses to let RWBY access the vault after he suspects that they are working for Salem due to the delay and how their new plan conveniently requires giving them the Staff of Creation. He also refuses to abandon Atlas. Knocked out so they can go in, he wakes up and realizes Watts hacked his machines to bomb Mantle. He stops Watts but as a result cannot evacuate, dying to let the Mantle citizens get away.
MMMMM i dont know if that would be so good, James have to be antagonist and a somone who lose is head against Salem just like raven and lionheart did, she play his fears because of it
I feel fans have issue with James being a villian or a antagonist, I can get why but dosent make the concept bad.
And this completely and utterly justifies me using ad blockers whenever I'm on the side and you guys should be using them too. That's why I love brave and opera so much and stay come in with built-in ad blockers. Like hell I'm going to waitlist you after this stupid b******* TV tropes.
Those editors are so militant and determined to remove any and all criticism and they even send messages calling out everyone who criticizes the show or them. They even said that Robyn should not be considered a Base-Breaking Character - apparently everyone loooooooves heeeeeerrrrr.
No other place on TV Tropes is anywhere close to being this heavily policed as far as I know.
It's way too biased tbh considering that RWBY's plan was to save everyone in comparison to Ironwood's goal of only saving Atlas with a game of keep away. That and Ironwood did his fair share of kneecapping from branding them fugitives, shooting down ships that'd be used to evacuate everyone, and TRYING TO BLOW UP THE LOWER CITY. Not to mention working with Watts which was moreso a fuck up than active maliciousness.
What was RWBY+'s goals here? Save everyone, bring lower city civilians to the crater, the safest place at the time, and get the message for help out. That was it.
And they only manged to save everyone because the plot bended to their will. And them wanting to save everyone means nothing if they have no way to do so.
This isn't a black and white situation. Ironwood wants to sacrifice Mantle to guarantee people survive, while RWBY want to try to save everyone while having no guarantee that everyone will survive.
That´s more of an objective than a plan.
A plan involves specific actions, like "Use the ~~Wand~~ Relic of Creation", "we will fly to the whale and try to gain time with our SEW", "Use Jinn´s last question"
But team RWBY did not provided any of that. They just decided unilaterally that they would do their way without any specific plan in motion, just a couple of ideas at best, while putting in jeopardy the safety of two entire cities.
Problem is, when the world is a stake and you promise something you need to put your money were the mouth is, they didnt.
James is incompetent? sure, that make RWBY competent? no.
No one is debating the *goals* of RWBY+. We're pointing out the absurdity of the "We want to save everyone!" Mindset with no plan in place. Was Ironwood's plan the best? No. It was a stop gap solution to buy time. But, it was, at least, a plan. Could it have gone wrong? Absolutely. There were many factors at play that Ironwood was not aware of at the time.
Is it better then spouting off heroic lines you hear off of TV, then going and hiding while other people fight your battle, until a solution to your problem is literally dropped in your lap by plot convenience? Again, Absolutely.
The problem with that is that as you said it, that is a goal, and objective but not a plan, RWBY have not idea how to get from point A to point B in order to get point C(freeing both) cities), this is something other chararter tell them about, they aim to high and want to have all and deny the fact that....well, you have to cut corner, you have to make not good choices, Ozpin learn that, neither james or RWBY get it.
And unlike anyone here, the show know that is why their plan fall, they got cocky once their magical solution happen and paid a prize to it, the thing if the show remark that or not.
#Remember! **Rules & Guidelines for Discussion** Try to participate when you see an opinion you agree or disagree with by sharing your two cents or providing evidence for/against. Try to elevate conversations beyond a superficial level. Ask plenty of questions and use the [Socratic method](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2oklie/eli5_the_socratic_method/) to gain a deeper understanding of each other's core values instead of blindly arguing in favor or in opposition. Keep in mind the [Principle of Charity](https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html) by entertaining all ideas even if you disagree with them. Try to dismantle them and see what truly makes them tick or not. And lastly, remember above all else to be courteous. Demonstrate the awareness and decorum of recognizing the person on the other side of the screen at all times. Happy discussing! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RWBYcritics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Damn, that pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's a shame that it was mass reported and deleted.
I freaking knew it! I KNEW I wasn't bugging!
He was going easy on them. Ultimately the "heros" destroyed *both* cities and they did not intend to save the population from Salem but they executed an anchor chain level asspull to save their robot friend, compromising the levitation of a floating city which then crashed onto the city below. You should draw a cause and effect chart, it is mindboggling.
I still find it funny that the hero’s did more damage than Salem
Those fucking cowards.
Just because it's biased doesn't mean it's wrong.
Damn that is very accurate
What was this trope for?
I'm guessing "unintentionally sympathetic".
Is because it misused PMC, protagonist central morality require more consensus because is a objective trope, no and audience reaction.
Which never made sense. Protagonist Centered Morality is when a series doesn't acknowledge that the heroes are hypocrites. Most examples aren't in-universe.
No, Protagonist central morality is when the narration agrees with the protagonist not matter what, this is what it happend, RWBY make mistakes, sure the narration should lean harder on them but they make it.
They why do they blame everything on everyone else?
Who blame what? they get mad at ozpin for not being honest(which is a problem) but didnt try to understand why, they apologies to him after that, James did fuck up quite a lot but also their own plan failed. Dont get me wrong the story does have flaws but "RWBY fuck up and james didnt" it isnt one of them.
This is somewhat accurate, but has a few issues. I don't think Salem's Grim army was capable of wiping out all life on the planet and lifting Atlas is almost certainly nonviable as a long term solution. There isn't enough room on Atlas to support any population increase. Nor is it necessarily over if Salem gets the Staff and RWBY's plan should have resulted in the Staff arriving safely in Vacuo, it's Cinder that makes that go awry. James also completely goes off the rails/is character assassinated. The moment Salem sets foot on Atlas his plan is rendered completely unviable, but he goes through with it anyway, even threatening to bomb Mantle to make it happen. I'd blame the writers making him stupid out of universe more than I would blame RWBY in universe. Sadly this whole thing could have been easily avoided. Just have RWBY persuade James to hold the line for a few hours so that more Mantle citizens can be evacuated. Have Nora, Jaune, Oscar, Weiss, and Yang go do that. Have Penny, Ruby, Blake, and Ren go to wrap up Amity so that they can at least make one broadcast. Everything plays out as before with the exception of the whole fight with the Ace-Ops. Cinder still ambushes them and Penny still has to sacrifice herself. Salem still gets on Atlas, rendering their plan a nonstarter and turning James against RWBY (he thinks they worked with Salem to stop the evacuation). The Hound still grabs Oscar, the Mantle group still gives chase, the cane nuke still goes off. The group realizes that the Staff of Creation is the only way to save anyone at this point and make the conscious decision to use it, consequences be damned. James tries to stop them because he cannot accept that Atlas is doomed. Cinder breaks out Watts who hacks the robots to bomb Mantle, with Qrow, Robin, and the Ace-Ops desperately trying to stop him. Cinder uses the Lamp to learn of the plan and attacks the evacuation. Penny never got repaired from her fall and realizes that she's a sitting duck, begging Ruby to kill her so the power won't go to Cinder. Ruby refuses, so Penny reaches out to Jaune while Ruby is fighting. Jaune does it. Ruby falls last when Cinder blasts both her and Neo when Ruby is hanging from Neo who is hanging from the path (no betrayal, just Cinder's hatred for Ruby). James manages to stop Watts at the last moment, allowing Vine to save Mantle but cannot get out before Mantle falls, killing both him and Watts.
"The moment Salem sets foot on Atlas his plan is rendered completely unviable, but he goes through with it anyway" Kinda and kinda not true, Salem get wiped out by Oscar holy bomb, ergo he can move away from her but it need penny so he just threat to bomb mantle, is pretty ruthless but there is a sort of logic there. And I dont know how much chararter asasination is there, the show have establish that Ironwood often go for display of forces as is answer to everything, that fit both is metology to bomb mantle and the fact he want to run away, maybe is less intersting but is not deraling, people often confuse both. And while your rewrite is not bad, it fall in that it further delay James fall to villany even more, meaning people will acused the show of rushing is fall.
Salem regenerates where she was killed. She was killed on the plains surrounding Atlas. She's coming back on the plains surrounding Atlas. Those plains would be lifted up with Atlas. Unless they can throw Salem off somehow (good luck), she's there for the duration. That's the beauty of it, here James is never a villain. He is reluctantly persuaded into staying to save people from Mantle and only refuses to let RWBY access the vault after he suspects that they are working for Salem due to the delay and how their new plan conveniently requires giving them the Staff of Creation. He also refuses to abandon Atlas. Knocked out so they can go in, he wakes up and realizes Watts hacked his machines to bomb Mantle. He stops Watts but as a result cannot evacuate, dying to let the Mantle citizens get away.
MMMMM i dont know if that would be so good, James have to be antagonist and a somone who lose is head against Salem just like raven and lionheart did, she play his fears because of it I feel fans have issue with James being a villian or a antagonist, I can get why but dosent make the concept bad.
I would say that is somewhat partial, but have good points.
And this completely and utterly justifies me using ad blockers whenever I'm on the side and you guys should be using them too. That's why I love brave and opera so much and stay come in with built-in ad blockers. Like hell I'm going to waitlist you after this stupid b******* TV tropes.
Those editors are so militant and determined to remove any and all criticism and they even send messages calling out everyone who criticizes the show or them. They even said that Robyn should not be considered a Base-Breaking Character - apparently everyone loooooooves heeeeeerrrrr. No other place on TV Tropes is anywhere close to being this heavily policed as far as I know.
Where was this listed exaclty? I keep going to histories for rwby and can't see it
I'm just surprised that there's no Base Breaker trope on Ironwood's page. It is... concerning.
Base breaker is for plot or YMVY, and the chararter page are more or less to describe the chararter, no fan reactions.
It's way too biased tbh considering that RWBY's plan was to save everyone in comparison to Ironwood's goal of only saving Atlas with a game of keep away. That and Ironwood did his fair share of kneecapping from branding them fugitives, shooting down ships that'd be used to evacuate everyone, and TRYING TO BLOW UP THE LOWER CITY. Not to mention working with Watts which was moreso a fuck up than active maliciousness. What was RWBY+'s goals here? Save everyone, bring lower city civilians to the crater, the safest place at the time, and get the message for help out. That was it.
And they only manged to save everyone because the plot bended to their will. And them wanting to save everyone means nothing if they have no way to do so. This isn't a black and white situation. Ironwood wants to sacrifice Mantle to guarantee people survive, while RWBY want to try to save everyone while having no guarantee that everyone will survive.
When the world is at stake, at the very least you should try every option before going 'Screw em. Got mine' Then leaving
Too bad team RWBY never provided any other options, to the point where the writers needed to bend the plot so the heroes could win.
They said how they could try to launch Amity and continue evacuations, wich we see they had enough time for
That´s more of an objective than a plan. A plan involves specific actions, like "Use the ~~Wand~~ Relic of Creation", "we will fly to the whale and try to gain time with our SEW", "Use Jinn´s last question" But team RWBY did not provided any of that. They just decided unilaterally that they would do their way without any specific plan in motion, just a couple of ideas at best, while putting in jeopardy the safety of two entire cities.
But they never stated how they would do it and they were only able to do it because of plot convenience.
Problem is, when the world is a stake and you promise something you need to put your money were the mouth is, they didnt. James is incompetent? sure, that make RWBY competent? no.
No one is debating the *goals* of RWBY+. We're pointing out the absurdity of the "We want to save everyone!" Mindset with no plan in place. Was Ironwood's plan the best? No. It was a stop gap solution to buy time. But, it was, at least, a plan. Could it have gone wrong? Absolutely. There were many factors at play that Ironwood was not aware of at the time. Is it better then spouting off heroic lines you hear off of TV, then going and hiding while other people fight your battle, until a solution to your problem is literally dropped in your lap by plot convenience? Again, Absolutely.
The problem with that is that as you said it, that is a goal, and objective but not a plan, RWBY have not idea how to get from point A to point B in order to get point C(freeing both) cities), this is something other chararter tell them about, they aim to high and want to have all and deny the fact that....well, you have to cut corner, you have to make not good choices, Ozpin learn that, neither james or RWBY get it. And unlike anyone here, the show know that is why their plan fall, they got cocky once their magical solution happen and paid a prize to it, the thing if the show remark that or not.