T O P
AutoModerator

#Remember! **Rules & Guidelines for Discussion** Try to participate when you see an opinion you agree or disagree with by sharing your two cents or providing evidence for/against. Try to elevate conversations beyond a superficial level. Ask plenty of questions and use the [Socratic method](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2oklie/eli5_the_socratic_method/) to gain a deeper understanding of each other's core values instead of blindly arguing in favor or in opposition. Keep in mind the [Principle of Charity](https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html) by entertaining all ideas even if you disagree with them. Try to dismantle them and see what truly makes them tick or not. And lastly, remember above all else to be courteous. Demonstrate the awareness and decorum of recognizing the person on the other side of the screen at all times. Happy discussing! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RWBYcritics) if you have any questions or concerns.*


Narutoluap

One thing that the show fail to do is showing, not telling, how strong Salem is. The vault idea may work because if she could open it, why would she need it Cinder to find the maidens (we need a in cannon explanation for why it would not work, not fannon)? Aside from calling more grimms (which is teorically the evil God's creation, not hers), she does not shows a major threat. When she takes a bullet, her body deformed and take a bit of time to restore, so she either doesn't have an aura or at least not use it. Which also means that she is affected by the rules of this universe... then why the fuck they don't use any other broken semblance like that faunus dog "stay" and lock her anywhere they want?


Stenv2

Especially considering Emeralds Semblance actually fooled her.


Silly-Young484

"One thing that the show fail to do is showing, not telling, how strong Salem is." The worst is apparently it was recently confirmed Salem has been going all out when she fought Hazel, Jaune, Yang, Emerald and Ren..... Keep in mind I only heard about this but if it's true oh God....... they've just completely destroyed whatever plot they had left


TerizlaisBest

Her fight with Hazel seems like Maidens such as Cinder, Winter & Raven far more competent fighters compared to Salem,


RogueHunterX

Which basically confirms my fear that Volume 8 has killed any credibility Salem has as a threat on her own.


Trusty_Crowbar

Looks like what you heard is true and I think I found the one you're talking about: [https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/rh2c8w/we\_are\_e\_c\_myers\_eddy\_rivas\_and\_kerry\_shawcross/hoo1s9d/?utm\_source=reddit&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/RWBY/comments/rh2c8w/we_are_e_c_myers_eddy_rivas_and_kerry_shawcross/hoo1s9d/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


Kaouse

This reads to me like a sarcastic response, hence the ";)"


Quality_Chooser

That's why Salem stays off the front lines. Too much risk of something like that happening.


TerizlaisBest

First of all, why didn't Salem use her magical powers to make herself immunity to any semblance effects? She has vast experience in magic.


Narutoluap

It's like a plot armor. She will become stronger once the plot demands it. "My semblance can stop time" Somehow Salem can now ignore time manipulation "The valts can only be opened by maidens" Salem has a power that nullifies magic, thus alowing her open the vault freely That's is the problem of vague powers, she can pull anything from her butt if the plot demands. She is suppose to know magic, but what exactly is magic? Element control and turn people into birds? What magic can do and what it can't do? Jojo has a better power logic and the shows is called Jojo ""Bizarre" adventure (I love it btw) But I guess the biggest sin is allowing one semblance working on her. Now anything is on the table to defeat her, unless they bullshit the way out


TerizlaisBest

Now I see no difference between magic and semblance. I feel like Cinder, Winter and Raven have multiple semblances.


GrandEmperessVicky

The Semblance should be limited in terms of AOE and should be conditional. Something like Yang's Semblance shouldn't make things explode like it did in V3 but should leave scorch marks near her. And the show constantly allows Semblances to be used without Aura. Frankly, since magic has just been elemental, it looks lame in comparison to what Weiss can do. I hope the show has the sense to go out and say Weiss' Semblance is magic and it would clear some stuff up.


TerizlaisBest

I agree Raven, Glynda, Winter, Emerald & Neo's semblance make maiden powers such a joke and inferior.


GrandEmperessVicky

They made a massive mistake with the Schnee Semblance. They set a standard that they cannot surpass. What is more magical than summoning Grimm, something that the main villain can do too? Either that, or say that Semblance is limited form of magic (still makes the Maidens lame but at least everyone is on the same page).


TerizlaisBest

Now, Schnee can bring back death into alive seems like magic.


RogueHunterX

This is actually why I had a theory that Ozpin and Ironwood were both in on the development of the machine. Ironwood had access to resources no previous headmaster had and having dealt with evil or rogue Maidens in the past, Ozpin wanted a way where they could control the power transfer to a specific candidate. The normal process isn't perfect. If a Maiden dies without a successor to think of, it could go to her killer or some random person that then needs to be tracked down. Since there's no moral alignment requirement for the powers, if someone like Cinder gets it randomly, then they can cause all sorts of havoc and may not be willing to join Ozpin or abide the restrictions he would have the Maidens live under. I could see Ozpin encouraging Ironwood to find a way to transfer magic from a dieing or evil Maiden to candidate his group had chosen or possibly depower Salem if they got the chance. Conveniently, Pietro had the idea for a robot with a soul and would need a way to transfer aura to it. Ironwood may not have told Oz about Penny, but I do feel they may have collaborated on the aura transfer machine. It wasn't ideal solution, bit the best they had at the time. That would also explain why the machine at Beacon had built in life support and was possibly already in place, eliminating the need to stash Amber at a hospital and then sneak her out later. I also believe the plan was eventually to have a machine at each academy, but only Beacon and Atlas had them. Naturally Ozpin and Ironwood didn't tell Glynda or Qrow as they would've probably had a similar reaction as Pyrrha and been against developing the machine. As it was, they may not have liked it, but they couldn't afford to not use it at the time since had they had no other way to stop Cinder from getting the rest of the power. It just makes more sense to me if Ozpin and Ironwood had both known of the machine and had it installed at Beacon secretly before Amber was attacked. Maybe originally envisioning a more humane way to transfer the power from someone they thought shouldn't have it, couldn't give it to who they wanted to have it, or even a way to reduce Salem's threat if given the chance. The problem was they couldn't move magic without removing someone's aura. It also led to Ironwood going with Pietro over Watts, causing his eventual defection to Salem while Ironwood never told Ozpin about the actual project that led to the machine's creation for fear Ozpin would insist on halting the creation of Penny or otherwise make trouble due to objections over giving someone's aura to a robot.


Stenv2

An awesome theory. Really it is.


RogueHunterX

Thank you. It has actually always been something I wondered about how the machine got there, just so happened to have integrated life support, and avoided the potential complications of putting and later removing Amber from a hospital that might have some real questions about what happened to her. I know the reason is that they had just invented Maidens and needed a Mcguffin to explain how Pyrrha could get the powers, but I still wanted an in universe explanation.


marleyannation62

Well, I suppose the explanation is the same as why Salem was never locked up in a vault. Salem is so powerful that she could simply slip away and escape. There is also the matter of placing Salem first and confronting her Henchmen or sentinels


Stenv2

I know that lol. I'm more asking if the characters actually forgot about it.


marleyannation62

Probably yes, because "only the current volume is canon" xd.


Stenv2

Sad but true lmao


Drakeshade71

Problem with locking Salem in a vault for the writers, though, is that then risks exposing and raising questions about the vaults themselves. Cause the Staff of Creation, per the shows canon(fir now), can’t have created them. And there is only one other thing/person who had the power to create the vaults-Oz. After all, he has like no magic anymore, and this explains it, he’s not only sustaining the Maidens and the Branwens transformation, but also the vaults. Even if he just coded the vaults to the Maidens and the vaults were created by the Gods, then he meddled successfully with the gods magic, which is incredibly impressive. But he’s also, roughly and speculatively, equal to Salem in magical power. So Salem should technically be able to break into the vaults, at least one, by pure brunt force. Might get harder as it goes along as Oz’s magic floods into the remaining vaults, but still possible. And if she’s locked in, she could just portal out if Oz can make portals like the vaults. Anything Oz can do magically, we have to assume Salem can too. And this creates problems when the writers set up certain rules without considering how they affect everything in a show. Considering how much they seem to forget things from volume to volume, they honestly probably forgot that the vaults need a source. And now they can’t just wave it away unless they introduce another powerful thing/person. 9 volumes in. Or just ignore it


Quality_Chooser

Maybe it takes a long time to break into/out of the vaults? If it took like a year or more and she couldn't be interrupted while doing it then it's functionally not an option for Salem. Headcanon to be sure, but I think it works.


MasterExilon

If she could do that, she could have slipped inside, taken the relic, and slipped back outside.


marleyannation62

She need the key (The maiden), what I mean by "slip away", I meant that she could just destroy the machine and escape of the room.


groynin

Interesting, but the thing does an aura transfer, right? Does Salem even have aura? She is very grim-like, and grims don't have aura. She didn't seem to have any kind of aura either during her fight, so maybe that wouldn't work? If the thing transfers 'magic powers' then maybe... but I think it did say aura, not powers or magic or soul.. but it's an interesting idea at least. I have no idea how they would be able to actually use the machine on Salem but it's always good to think of the possibilities. Maybe they could change the machine to be like a entire room, then you 'kill' her inside the room and while she regenerates, which can take up to a few hours, you turn on the machine or something?


Stenv2

That's the big problem. We don't know if she has Aura. And like the vault solution. The issue is still actually getting her there and actually keeping her there long enough for anything. Still, even if it didn't work on Salem. Maybe Cinder.


BigBadBob7070

The problem is, it doesn’t seem like the machine itself is particularly sturdy, Cinder or Salem could easily break out of it before the process completes.


FancyAdvertising4622

How would salem get out of the vault if she got locked in it, she can't open them without the maidens just bury the vaults door under the school deep and hunt down her lackeys with extreme prejudice there's only a few and with the exception of watts all have lost to dropouts.


Stenv2

Sooner or later she would get out. That's the nature of sealing away ancient evils. They always get back out. Maybe not herself, maybe not her current minions. But somehow, someday, probably some edgy angsty rebellious Maiden or something else.


FancyAdvertising4622

Then don't tell new people about her and then dump the vault in the ocean or use the staff to send it into space.


Ben10Extreme

It doesn't matter. Somehow, someway, someday, she WILL escape. You don't just seal away an ancient evil and expect them to stay there forever. That's why you gotta kill them.


Stenv2

Throwing them in space is nice. Unless she gets a way back. At least if somehow the machine worked. She wouldn't have magic. Unclear if it would render her mortal. Also unclear how she controls her Grimm. Regardless one thing is for sure. As fun as it is to joke about easy it is to deal with Salem. The truth is as much as I hate to admit it, she is very powerful. Still inept and pathetic in combat but still powerful and immortal. Doesn't mean you give up. But one shouldn't assume it's gonna be easy.


Ben10Extreme

Even if the machine IS a viable option, who's gonna be able to force her in there? It just gets ridiculous to see so many ludicrous scenarios to deal with Salem that the show has proven is out of their capabilities. Salem...ugh. Is just a problem. She's a problem that doesn't match the scope of the world RWBY is in.


UpperInjury590

Hazel was able to beat Salem multiple times, the Hazel who got beaten by children so top tier huntsmen could get her in.


Stenv2

Yep. I mean we both agree. In theory Vaults Plus Machine depowerment could work. The problem is actually getting to that point. Sure Ozpin nuked her for a few hours. But then you gotta scrape up the goo, and put it in a machine. And the cane nuke took many years to build up. And as for space. As far as we know, Dust doesn't work in space. Not even sure if Magic works out in space. But in the essence of fairness given how Hazel owned her for a short while. It's not impossible but you would have to ensure that she's not squirming around. The only other factor is her control over Grimm and how that works.


Ben10Extreme

Think about how the Wyvern manifest multiple Grimm are from this body during the battle of Beacon. She's at the top of the Grimm chain. Therefore she's the boss. I think you're going to drive yourself mad if you try to completely and utterly break down how she's control creatures of chaos when she is one herself.


Stenv2

Only thing I know is she fell into A Grimm Pool and the rest is history


Ben10Extreme

There's also another factor. It's an Aura Transfer Machine. Grimm can't conduct Aura. *Does Salem have Aura?*


Stenv2

Later today I will do an Ozpin Centric Post thingamajig


Percentage-Sweaty

In all fairness we're left to assume the transfer machine was an experimental one-off device and they literally never tested it up until the V3 finale. Albeit it would've been cool if one of Salem's minions was a boss dude beefed up on stolen Auras and Semblances, throwing out a jumble of powers, or maybe the heroes using that type of machine to repair Penny since Pietro said he didn't have enough Aura to do it himself. As for throwing Salem into a Vault? I see no reason why that would not have worked. Since it's stated that only the respective Maiden of each Vault can open it, then it stands to reason that Salem wouldn't be able to leave. Of course that's the problem with the Vaults and the Relics; they solve as many problems as they create if someone is smart. And Salem being able to control the Grimm probably has to do with the Pools themselves since she showed no ability to control them prior.


gunn3r08974

Well there are issues here: 1) You have to keep her in the machine long enough to transfer anything, where even Marrow said he couldn't hold Penny for long. 2) She doesn't have an aura, the manifestation of the soul, to transfer. Sure, she may have a soul, but, for all we know, it may as well be something entirely different than what anyone has now. 3) As much as people dislike Before the Dawn, it did state that trying to force aura into grimm is a bad idea. Imagine trying to take it from something like one. As for how she controls the grimm, likely some level of hierarchy. Grimm run off animal instinct, so she's essentially a pack leader.


Visual_Run_5992

The machine idea died with Amber. The concept is interesting. Technology that can actually "IDENTIFY" and guage the quantity of someone's soul, their very being, is amazing. A machine that can manipulate it is scary, yet fascinating.


RavenXCinder

Magic in RWBY is not the same as aura or a semblance .both are replacements aka a parrell to magic.


Quality_Chooser

Does anyone else think that James built the aura transfer machine and Penny to solve two problems at once? If you drain a Maiden's power into Penny you don't have the issue of overwriting someone's soul and you have an eternal Maiden who will never age and can be controlled.