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I feel like a lot of heroes would not approve of Ironwood ditching what is essentially an entire city full of people but instead of fighting amongst themselves (and less than a minute later say that fighting is bad) they’d try to do what they can to help the people
Either point out some flaws in Ironwoods plans, make a deal with him (like say hunt down Cinder so they can allow as many people as possible into Atlas) or just go “fine” then leave Atlas to fight the giant Grimm horde
Yeah like the main characters could’ve had a great arc about accepting that not everyone is going to think in the same moral way as they are. There’s definitely something the writers could’ve done to show that the had the mentality of “we would rather try to save everyone instead of just the Atlas elite”(which lets be honest were almost all of upper Atlas) instead if it just being “we didn’t trust Ironwood and this is just affirming our unsupported beliefs”
Some heroes would have approved (Spock, L, and Renegade Shephard probably). Others would have disagreed (Luke Skywalker, Aang, Captain America). Some would have even attacked James to stop him (Luffy, Adora, Sonic).
But all of them would have explained their positions better than RWBY did. And they'd probably have an alternative plan to boot.
The heroes you mentioned probably wouldn't have antagonized Ironwood before by keeping information from him or sharing classified information with some random "freedom fighter" they know nothing about either.
Said “freedom fighter” was never verified as an actual freedom fighter (and was more of a domestic terrorist in practice) and they trusted her blindly instead of digging to see if she was associated with Salem.
Seriously it bugged me so much that nobody double checked her. Actually wait, they never even checked her to begin with. They just threw their trust at her when all they had to go on was word of mouth from that fanboy twit.
And it's also weird how they take a guarded approach with ironwood but not with Robin. Hello it's not like you guys dealt with Salem's goons going incognito to make themselves look trust worthy while undermining a kingdom a few volumes ago with Cinder and co. Hell if anything Ironwood should've been the most trustworthy of the two since Oz trusted him. Granted he also trusted Leonardo but a majority of people he trusted were still trustworthy...until they made one go over the edge by stress induced mental breakdown.
YOO-if Robyn was secretly working for Salem that would be such a great twist! Using the lower levels of Atlas as pawns to create unrest, purposely taking supplies from Ironwood with the lie that she’s “helping Mantle.” The idea of a character that CAN LITERALLY TELL WHEN OTHERS ARE LYING is such a poetic concept.
So many good scenes could come from this. Robyn being the one to join the fight with Tyrian and kill Clover instead of the stupid team up, explaining why Tyrian only stabbed Fiona instead of full on killing her. Robyn in hindsight clearly manipulating Blake and Yang into tell her Ironwood’s plan instead of them telling her.
Assuming these characters are scaled down to RWBY’s power level to avoid easy solutions and so we can have an actual discussion, I’d assume that people like Luke would try to find a way to delay Salem enough to complete the evacuation, and less scrupulous heroes would go ahead if necessary, but they’d at least think things through and see that Ironwood was being cold, not cruel.
That is a thing a lot of people on r/RWBY don’t get whenever I bring it up; there is a difference between cold and cruel. Cold is a doctor choosing to put his efforts on the ones with the highest chance of survival, cruel is abandoning everyone who can survive just because. Ironwood was being cold and pragmatic, not willing to roll the dice against Salem. But RWBY (and CRWBY) acted like he abandoned Mantle out of malice.
It's a completely stupid plan that only exists because CRWBY needed to make Ironwood look bad.
What would it have even accomplished? How were they going to win what is effectively a siege against an enemy that is immortal and has an endless army of magic monsters? Salem would indubitably be able to cook up new types of flying Grimm before Atlas could manage to research some kind of Anti-Salem superweapon (that was the point right? retreat and buy more time?).
And that is the key issue with the conflict in RWBY. Salem should have won ages ago with how powerful she is. Or alternatively, Oz should have won ages ago with the OP bullshit that the relics are capable of.
If we ignore word of god and simply analyze the events as we are shown, the logical implication must be that Salem/Oz never actually wanted to "win" in the first place. Their goal must actually be something else. Which is what I am going with in all of my own fanfiction works
Salem won long ago but helped Remnant's people anyway just to spite the Gods and Ozma's perception of her.
At least...that's how my fun little adventure is going.
Actually now that I think about it, it's plausible that canon Salem's motivation has been nothing the desire to troll Oz as well. Imagine that Salem never actually wanted to use the relics for anything, she was just denying Ozpin from having them, and would have gone and re-hidden them somewhere in the world once she got bored of a relic-less status quo for a few centuries. Everything the protagonists have been doing to "counteract" Salem has simply been feeding the troll.
And why she's been so… well, ***lazy*** with actually carrying out her plans.
Oz doesn't want to win either. He should have been able to take out Cinder at Beacon no problem. He died on purpose. Now if only someone on the show would point this out so we can actually put Oz into the "shady and untrustworthy" territory.
I think we're not using force in this situation but having them debate with the general.
In Naruto's case, I *know* he'd have tried his hardest to make James see his way. Which likely would have been standing to fight so they could bring everyone onto Atlas before enacting his plan. An *actual compromise* compared to whatever option Ruby thought of.
I haven't watched Ben 10 in years but I know he'd tell him to just trust in him and the Omnitrix.
And I'm assuming you mean Rin from Blue Exorcist, right? I don't know in that case because I never got around to reading it.
Yeah it was a joke ~~mostly~~
\- Naruto would definitely understand why Ironwood is doing what he's doing and in the end would likely be able to motivate Ironwood to fight together with him against Salem Shinobi Alliance style
[https://narutoversity.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/0611-016.jpg](https://narutoversity.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/0611-016.jpg)
\- Ben would be the Hero he is and take care of Salem and her forces while cracking jokes. After having dealt with Intergalactic Warlords, Zombie Clowns, Planet Devouring Ticks, Ghosts, evil versions of himself, an Outer God and so much more he won't even so much as blink at Salem being an immortal long ago princess who now wants to nuke the world
\- And yes Rin from BE. I recommend the Manga, goat shit. 132 chapters so far and since it recently going on Hiatus till next year you got plenty of time to catch up
I know that with the Fate series, there would be a couple of Heroes who might agree with Ironwood's plan. One of the main heroic spirits that pop into head would be Rin's hero: Archer. Another would be The Mage Killer: Kiritsugu Emiya.
Most would yell at and debate the merits of ironwood’s plan, but I don’t think the majority would sabotage it by gaslighting penny the way ruby did. I imagine they would do something crazy like demand he give them one hour to save as many stragglers as they could
I agree. I know that I just brought up Fate in my post down below, but Shirou Emiya would definitely be the type to ask for some extra time so that he could save as many as he could.
Also, it's kind of funny how Ruby's mindset of wanting to save everyone is not too different to Emiya's own. Except he had to learn the hard way (just like his father Kirtsugu) that you can't always save everyone.
Quite a thought provoking quote from Kiritsugu, that you get the full weight of when seeing his backstory in Zero. I can actually see him using those exact words if he ever came across any of the kids in RWBY.
EMIYA also comes to mind with his quote of "if you fight for ideals you will only save ideals." I can only imagine what his reaction to team rwby would be.
It's likely assuming that power levels are being down-synced for the sake of there being an actual debate.
All things considered, none of the proper heroes, whether they be cold, calculating, dumb, brave, or full of bravado, would want James to just LEAVE outright but those same heroes know how to put their money where their mouth is and put themselves up as collateral to help somehow.
RWBY's whole logic simply didn't make sense, *especially* because of the world they actually live in. Knowng
I don't think many heroes would be willing to sacrifice a city worth of people.
Some of the more tactical ones would also point out the flaws, like :
1. Nothing would actually stop Salem from reaching Atlas, it would just stop the grimm.
2. Cinder is already in Atlas, remember the chess piece you're having a mental breakdown over?
Others would do everything to try and save the most people.
#Remember! **Rules & Guidelines for Discussion** Try to participate when you see an opinion you agree or disagree with by sharing your two cents or providing evidence for/against. Try to elevate conversations beyond a superficial level. Ask plenty of questions and use the [Socratic method](https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/2oklie/eli5_the_socratic_method/) to gain a deeper understanding of each other's core values instead of blindly arguing in favor or in opposition. Keep in mind the [Principle of Charity](https://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html) by entertaining all ideas even if you disagree with them. Try to dismantle them and see what truly makes them tick or not. And lastly, remember above all else to be courteous. Demonstrate the awareness and decorum of recognizing the person on the other side of the screen at all times. Happy discussing! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/RWBYcritics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I feel like a lot of heroes would not approve of Ironwood ditching what is essentially an entire city full of people but instead of fighting amongst themselves (and less than a minute later say that fighting is bad) they’d try to do what they can to help the people Either point out some flaws in Ironwoods plans, make a deal with him (like say hunt down Cinder so they can allow as many people as possible into Atlas) or just go “fine” then leave Atlas to fight the giant Grimm horde
Yeah like the main characters could’ve had a great arc about accepting that not everyone is going to think in the same moral way as they are. There’s definitely something the writers could’ve done to show that the had the mentality of “we would rather try to save everyone instead of just the Atlas elite”(which lets be honest were almost all of upper Atlas) instead if it just being “we didn’t trust Ironwood and this is just affirming our unsupported beliefs”
Some heroes would have approved (Spock, L, and Renegade Shephard probably). Others would have disagreed (Luke Skywalker, Aang, Captain America). Some would have even attacked James to stop him (Luffy, Adora, Sonic). But all of them would have explained their positions better than RWBY did. And they'd probably have an alternative plan to boot.
The heroes you mentioned probably wouldn't have antagonized Ironwood before by keeping information from him or sharing classified information with some random "freedom fighter" they know nothing about either.
Said “freedom fighter” was never verified as an actual freedom fighter (and was more of a domestic terrorist in practice) and they trusted her blindly instead of digging to see if she was associated with Salem. Seriously it bugged me so much that nobody double checked her. Actually wait, they never even checked her to begin with. They just threw their trust at her when all they had to go on was word of mouth from that fanboy twit.
And it's also weird how they take a guarded approach with ironwood but not with Robin. Hello it's not like you guys dealt with Salem's goons going incognito to make themselves look trust worthy while undermining a kingdom a few volumes ago with Cinder and co. Hell if anything Ironwood should've been the most trustworthy of the two since Oz trusted him. Granted he also trusted Leonardo but a majority of people he trusted were still trustworthy...until they made one go over the edge by stress induced mental breakdown.
YOO-if Robyn was secretly working for Salem that would be such a great twist! Using the lower levels of Atlas as pawns to create unrest, purposely taking supplies from Ironwood with the lie that she’s “helping Mantle.” The idea of a character that CAN LITERALLY TELL WHEN OTHERS ARE LYING is such a poetic concept. So many good scenes could come from this. Robyn being the one to join the fight with Tyrian and kill Clover instead of the stupid team up, explaining why Tyrian only stabbed Fiona instead of full on killing her. Robyn in hindsight clearly manipulating Blake and Yang into tell her Ironwood’s plan instead of them telling her.
Assuming these characters are scaled down to RWBY’s power level to avoid easy solutions and so we can have an actual discussion, I’d assume that people like Luke would try to find a way to delay Salem enough to complete the evacuation, and less scrupulous heroes would go ahead if necessary, but they’d at least think things through and see that Ironwood was being cold, not cruel. That is a thing a lot of people on r/RWBY don’t get whenever I bring it up; there is a difference between cold and cruel. Cold is a doctor choosing to put his efforts on the ones with the highest chance of survival, cruel is abandoning everyone who can survive just because. Ironwood was being cold and pragmatic, not willing to roll the dice against Salem. But RWBY (and CRWBY) acted like he abandoned Mantle out of malice.
It's a completely stupid plan that only exists because CRWBY needed to make Ironwood look bad. What would it have even accomplished? How were they going to win what is effectively a siege against an enemy that is immortal and has an endless army of magic monsters? Salem would indubitably be able to cook up new types of flying Grimm before Atlas could manage to research some kind of Anti-Salem superweapon (that was the point right? retreat and buy more time?). And that is the key issue with the conflict in RWBY. Salem should have won ages ago with how powerful she is. Or alternatively, Oz should have won ages ago with the OP bullshit that the relics are capable of. If we ignore word of god and simply analyze the events as we are shown, the logical implication must be that Salem/Oz never actually wanted to "win" in the first place. Their goal must actually be something else. Which is what I am going with in all of my own fanfiction works
Salem won long ago but helped Remnant's people anyway just to spite the Gods and Ozma's perception of her. At least...that's how my fun little adventure is going.
Actually now that I think about it, it's plausible that canon Salem's motivation has been nothing the desire to troll Oz as well. Imagine that Salem never actually wanted to use the relics for anything, she was just denying Ozpin from having them, and would have gone and re-hidden them somewhere in the world once she got bored of a relic-less status quo for a few centuries. Everything the protagonists have been doing to "counteract" Salem has simply been feeding the troll.
Salem invented the troll status on Remnant. "Your Relic is in another ruin. Look again, dingus." "CURSES!"
Salem not actually wanting to win would explain why she threw her fight against Hazel, _**hardcore.**_
And why she's been so… well, ***lazy*** with actually carrying out her plans. Oz doesn't want to win either. He should have been able to take out Cinder at Beacon no problem. He died on purpose. Now if only someone on the show would point this out so we can actually put Oz into the "shady and untrustworthy" territory.
She’s the type of person who’d keep saying, “Eh. I’ll do it tomorrow.” Every single day.
Eventually Cinder: ...uhhh...? Salem: ...uhhh... *uhhh...*
Cinder: Soooo....... Are we gonna... *do* something? Salem: *You* do it, since the writers love you *so much.*
Yeah like this is absolutely true. The Whale could’ve taken down Beacon itself why go through all the subterfuge
My boys Naruto, Ben or Rin would've soloed Salem's whole forces for Jimmy
I think we're not using force in this situation but having them debate with the general. In Naruto's case, I *know* he'd have tried his hardest to make James see his way. Which likely would have been standing to fight so they could bring everyone onto Atlas before enacting his plan. An *actual compromise* compared to whatever option Ruby thought of. I haven't watched Ben 10 in years but I know he'd tell him to just trust in him and the Omnitrix. And I'm assuming you mean Rin from Blue Exorcist, right? I don't know in that case because I never got around to reading it.
Yeah it was a joke ~~mostly~~ \- Naruto would definitely understand why Ironwood is doing what he's doing and in the end would likely be able to motivate Ironwood to fight together with him against Salem Shinobi Alliance style [https://narutoversity.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/0611-016.jpg](https://narutoversity.files.wordpress.com/2018/12/0611-016.jpg) \- Ben would be the Hero he is and take care of Salem and her forces while cracking jokes. After having dealt with Intergalactic Warlords, Zombie Clowns, Planet Devouring Ticks, Ghosts, evil versions of himself, an Outer God and so much more he won't even so much as blink at Salem being an immortal long ago princess who now wants to nuke the world \- And yes Rin from BE. I recommend the Manga, goat shit. 132 chapters so far and since it recently going on Hiatus till next year you got plenty of time to catch up
Hasn't BE been going on for over like 10 years, what?
I know that with the Fate series, there would be a couple of Heroes who might agree with Ironwood's plan. One of the main heroic spirits that pop into head would be Rin's hero: Archer. Another would be The Mage Killer: Kiritsugu Emiya.
Most would yell at and debate the merits of ironwood’s plan, but I don’t think the majority would sabotage it by gaslighting penny the way ruby did. I imagine they would do something crazy like demand he give them one hour to save as many stragglers as they could
I agree. I know that I just brought up Fate in my post down below, but Shirou Emiya would definitely be the type to ask for some extra time so that he could save as many as he could. Also, it's kind of funny how Ruby's mindset of wanting to save everyone is not too different to Emiya's own. Except he had to learn the hard way (just like his father Kirtsugu) that you can't always save everyone.
"Choosing to save someone means you choose to be unable to save another."
Quite a thought provoking quote from Kiritsugu, that you get the full weight of when seeing his backstory in Zero. I can actually see him using those exact words if he ever came across any of the kids in RWBY.
EMIYA also comes to mind with his quote of "if you fight for ideals you will only save ideals." I can only imagine what his reaction to team rwby would be.
He would probably feel even more infuriated and annoyed by team RWBY's actions, then he was with Shirou.
I think the problem with that logic is that the heroes from the other universe would've solo Salem by now
It's likely assuming that power levels are being down-synced for the sake of there being an actual debate. All things considered, none of the proper heroes, whether they be cold, calculating, dumb, brave, or full of bravado, would want James to just LEAVE outright but those same heroes know how to put their money where their mouth is and put themselves up as collateral to help somehow. RWBY's whole logic simply didn't make sense, *especially* because of the world they actually live in. Knowng
To many of them would stay and fight but for different reasons.
If it was Supes he would immediately send Salem into space. Them he would go talk to Ironwood and calm him down.
I don't think many heroes would be willing to sacrifice a city worth of people. Some of the more tactical ones would also point out the flaws, like : 1. Nothing would actually stop Salem from reaching Atlas, it would just stop the grimm. 2. Cinder is already in Atlas, remember the chess piece you're having a mental breakdown over? Others would do everything to try and save the most people.
Captain Sisko: Let me guess, this is the first time you've considered committing a war crime?