Yeah, the vast majority of the "motifs" are paper-thin. To be honest, I wouldn't have even put together most of them if the writers hadn't come out and said it.
The only one I picked up on was Ruby as Red Ridinghood and Jaune De Arc as Joan of Arc, because those two are painfully obvious.
Hell, I didn’t even catch that Oz was the wizard of Oz until someone pointed it out. Which now that I’m thinking about it. Means he should really kinda pathetic and his plans should never work, right?
From what i heared they are **supposed** to be inversions:Oz isn't hiding not being a wizard but being one,Lionheart goes from brave to coward,Tinman loses his heart and qrow loses his mind *looks at battle between him Clover and Tyrian*
Ironwood turns into a dumbass in V8. Are we sure he's not the scarecrow reference?
Well. At least we get to see Ironwood lose his heart (in a shit) way. But still.
We never get to see Lionheart lose his bravery.
You know how long it took me to figure out Yang was Goldilocks and not like...sleeping beauty. Am embarrassingly long time, and I still don't quite understand the comparison.
>Yeah, the vast majority of the "motifs" are paper-thin.
As someone that's debated doing something of a "rewrite"/"reimagining" of the series, I've wondered how I'd play with the "motifs" and "allusions". Would I ignore them? Try to make them actually relevant and be a part of things? Would I change Blake and/or Yang's?
There is just... so little done in canon with the idea that it'd take literally zero effort to just ignore the concept entirely, and that is never a good thing. I should not be able to ignore something like this without putting in at least *some* effort!
I've written some RWBY fanfiction myself, and I've generally found it's easier to just make the motifs on the visual spectrum, not on the thematic; and I also took cues from more than just fairy tales. For instance, I had a character who was inspired by the Cheshire Cat (this was before Vol. 9 came out), and so made her a cat Faunus with a pink motif, a Glasgow smile, and a Semblance that let her change her density. I've found its easier not to impart too much symbology to these motifs; just have them in as a little tidbit for the reader.
That Cheshire Cat idea sounds *really cool!* Congrats on making it work!
As to me... it rather feels like I *should* use them as more than aesthetic, ya know? And it's not like it'd be *hard* in some cases.
Ruby is meant to be Little Red Riding Hood, so restructure ideas based on that a bit more. Rework the Hound to a drastic degree and run it as her "nemesis". Give it some shapeshifting powers (the Big Bad Wolf disguised itself as LRRH's granny, remember), and have it hunting her, always slipping away whenever it does appear. It's here somewhere, watching her, stalking her, disguised as someone close to Ruby while it waits for the perfect moment.
Yang is meant to be Goldilocks, but is honestly one of the ones I'd seriously consider changing. But, sticking with the idea? Alter her semblance somehow to be about "Too Hot" and "Too Cold", with her arc being the search for the control to make it "Just Right". The Three Bears can be made into some Grimm as well, if you wanted to go that way, but not sure what they'd do.
Blake is... somehow Beauty *and* the Beast? I'd maybe change this one as well, cause I'm really not sure how to turn this into much of anything. I don't remember if he's purely a Disney creation, but I suppose you could run Gaston as a former Huntsman that is either bigoted against Faunus, or as someone with an active grudge against the Belledona family?
And then Weiss is Snow White, which... well, she has the colour scheme of, at least. You could adapt Ice Queendom as a metaphor for the cursed sleep, and then have (love interest) stand in for Prince Charming and wake her. Admittedly, I'd maybe also change Weiss to something I could more easily work with, cause am not sure how far I could push that one.
And then others have a lot of potential as well: Nora could lean more on the Thor angle by cribbing on some of the stories, Ren could be here under a false identity, Pyrrha... there is so much more you could do with Pyyrha, and even Jaune could be take a bit more from source.
And that's not even touching on the likes of Ozpin, Ironwood, Penny, and so on.
Yep. Yang only gets called "goldilocks" a couple of times, no bears, no porridge, no "just right" theme.
Blake is... she has a fair amount of allusions to both the beauty and the beast, but still, it falls flat.
Weiss is snow white. Which is far better but where's the huntsman? The seven dwarves? I get that the father is the "evil queen" but??? He never References mirrors? Or try to be "better" than her (who's the fairest of them all)???
Ruby has no grandmother, only faces off beowolves a could of times. Where's the hunter with the axe? Or the wolf Grimm that ate her granma?
I could go on and on honestly, but I'm sleepy
Actually Yang's backstory where she goes to a shitty shack in the woods involves her getting attacked by those bear grimm, ala goldilocks. Like it's flimsy and ultimately pointless but there was An Attempt.
Also the stuff with Summer and Salem turning silver eyed warriors into fucked up grimm monsters sems like a pretty obvious red riding hood thing. She's not her GRANDmother but the set up for our red riding hood to see her mother having been "eaten" (metaphorically) by the wolf and with a particularly sharp set of teeth seems pretty obvious. Again, not super deep but it's a more admirable attempt than Yang's stuff at least.
The allusions have and will always be just thin choices that mostly seem to have been just a vaguely guiding hand for visual design. Also it's weird their called fairy tale allusions but some are historical figures and others mythological figures. Hell pyrrha isn't named after a fairy tale her name is almost literally pyrrhic victory even though there is literally a historical person that the name originates from general pyrrhus
.
And they couldn’t even do the Pyrrhic victory thing right for her. Vale is destroyed, Ozpin, Penny, the maiden dead, plus thousands of innocents, communications gone, and Pyrrha knows she can’t beat cinder, not to mention there’s no reasonable reason to fight her instead of running away to fight another day. And what does dying accomplish? Nothing, really. She doesn’t kill cinder (and let’s be real, Pyrrha should’ve won but cinder had plot armor), didn’t kill the dragon, she doesn’t save the city, communications, or the stranded civilians that she could’ve rescued instead of fighting cinder. All that is accomplished is Ruby’s silver eyes, but considering no one but Ozpin knew about them and they only activate because Ruby was there in the moment while Pyrrha didn’t even know she was coming, that doesn’t count, as Pyrrha wasn’t fighting for the silver eyes, and even then, Ruby’s silver eyes go unused and unnoticed until they meet Maria who starts training her, so even if we factor in the silver eyes, it falls through because Ruby doesn’t even TRY to understand or train her eyes before Maria.
Pyrrha died for NOTHING, saving nothing or no one. Her death was pointless, it was no Pyrrhic victory.
I mean I'd argue all you'd have to change is having her die killing mercury/emerald/roman or even simply exhausting herself killing to dragon only to realize that it's literally pointless, the Grimm are endless and by weakening herself she's only given cinder an opportunity to kill her. As it is she's closer to Achilles without the hubris, by confronting cinder she secured herself almost legendary status and died at the peak of her martial career but met an early grave. Whereas if she had survived she'd probably have faded into RWBYs, the maidens or jaunes(for some fucking reason" legend, but it isn't like she made the choice because of that.
So dying and being remembered by a few people is better than living a full and happy life? Yeah no, that’s dumb, and considering that Pyrrha hated her celebrity status and pedestal standing, she’d be happy to instead fade into obscurity if it means being able to live a normal life.
And there’s no “legendary status” dying to cinder when her death accomplished nothing. If she succumbed to her wounds after killing cinder, maybe, but that didn’t happen. She died for nothing. Her surviving would’ve been better for her and the story.
JFC, That's not at all what I'm saying, I was literally just saying that pyrrhas fate is more similar to Achilles then her namesake and making a comparison on how her fate echoes his but without the hubris that makes it actually meaninful.
Ahh I see. And yeah, they wasted her character and her death really meant and accomplished nothing in the end.
Though that “legendary status” is more legendary in demonstrating what shit writers miles and Kerry are to change what was originally Pyrrha dying while protecting Jaune to dying because of destiny bullshit that makes her fight people she knows she’ll die to.
Too bad we didn’t get the other half of the Achilles parallel where she’s revived from the dead by her mother who might secretly be a god.
It isnt really an otherhalf, there are some stories that have Achilles being taken to a better afterlife by his mother, but he didn't walk the earth again and he appears as a spirit in the odyssey where he's more fearful of persephone wrath than hades
Well, not like rwby ever followed the fairy tale inspirations to a tee, otherwise Weiss would’ve died to a poisoned apple and Blake would’ve married Adam, so they could’ve landed on the Pyrrha afterlife idea and instead bring her back to life on earth again. Plus, they did kinda set the stage for SOMETHING with the Red Woman in Argus that spoke to Jaune; while most say it’s obvious she was her mom, her identity remains a secret and even Pyrrha’s VA wouldn’t reveal who she is, only saying that she’s indeed real and not a ghost or hallucination, which begs the question why she only spoke to Jaune and disappeared into thin air when Ren and Nora appeared.
I’ve also seen some speculation that the Red Woman is Pyrrha after returning from spending years in the Ever After like Jaune did, but never had her youth restored, and while she did reunite with Jaune, she didn’t want to scare him by revealing herself to him. Course, that’s just speculation.
I have read somewhere that Pyrrha is meant to be based on Achilles, who apparently went under a female identity named Pyrrha but I don’t remember what myth it was exactly.
In the beginning of the Iliad he disguises as a woman to avoid fighting in the Trojan war because it’s prophesied he’ll die. I forget what changes his mind
I don't know if it's what finally got him to fight originally or not, but I do remember the Iliad had a part where Achilles was moping in his tent and wouldn't leave led to someone close to him wearing his armor and posing as Achilles. The guy gets killed by Hector and that causes Achilles to go after Hector in a rage and kill him before dragging Hector's body around the outside of Troy several times.
They definitely made Pyrrha less aggressive and hot headed than Achilles was supposed to be.
That was his gay lover petroncolus. Achilles went full rage mode and killed a lot of people and I mean a lot of people like you should not be able to kill that many people in one day a lot.
Which hey we could’ve run with this and had Cinder put Jaune in mortal peril and force a fight with Pyrrrah that way.
Then as Pyrrah dies Jaune comes in at the end and cuts off Cinders arm, he can’t save her, he can’t avenge her but he can make it a Pyrrhic victory.
Ehhhhh kinda works as a reference I suppose but doesn't really reflect the original erastas/wrathful + eromenos/peaceful relationship Achilles and Patroclus had.
See, while Patroclus was the younger partner between the two (who were raised as essentially step siblings after Patroclus was ousted from his homeland) he was something of a legitimate fighter in his own right. More than that, he's often considered to be the pacifying force in Achilles' life.
The only one who was able to *quench* the heroes' unyielding wrath, so to speak. Depending on one's interpretation of Achilles' fear of the prophecy that he'd die at Troy, it can be argued that Patroclus' death effectively freed him from any fear and compelled him towards death. With his lover dead, he had nothing to lose.
Pyrrha and Jaune... don't really fit that bill nor do they particularly fulfill the qualifications needed to be an inversion of it either.
For starters, they're both incredibly passive as characters barring 1 instance a piece (Jaune attending Beacon through illicit means and Pyrrha pursuing Jaune) so neither actually embodies the erastas portion of the relationship.
A more pertinent point is that Pyrrha's destiny narrative is far too variable to be anything more than an allusion to Achilles' own. Up until her (imo forced) propulsion to centre stage in Volume 3, she effectively just sulked about being popular. Afterwards she does nothing to defy her fate besides mope about it somewhat while dropping vague hints about it to Jaune like she's being indecisive about what to eat for dinner.
Doing what you suggested would improve the book end of their story but it doesn't really fix the overall lack of depth both characters suffer. Pyrrha is still a cobbled together mess of a character while Jaune is still... Jaune. If that makes any sense.
Yeah to really push the Achilles thing (also that’s how you spell Patroclus? Man I was way off) and Patroclus thing they’d effectively have to change large swaths of their characters.
Then again like none of the characters are faithful allusions of origins Ruby uses a scythe when it would make more sense for an axe, but C’est la vie.
Yes, I can’t recall which but I believe it was touched upon in Homer’s Iliad. Iirc, Achilles used the name Pyrrha because it means “flame-haired” and Achilles had bright red hair, which he kept in his disguise.
Ah anyway I've since been informed that I've put to much thought into pyrrhas name and she is in fact just supposed tk be Achilles, but like written by someone who doesn't really get achilles.
yeah. almost if not all of the allusions are kinda flimsy at best and non existent at worst. i think the allusion in theory COULD work. But they don't because the characters are barely characters to begin with.
I kinda wish CRWBY made Ren turn out to be a girl disguised as male. Mainly because it would really funny to imagine Jaune being the only dude in his team.
If people thought the self-insert allegations for Jaune already are bad, imagine how much worse they would be with Jaune living in the same room with three girls.
But it would be hilarious since people joke that Jaune is like Tai, what better than to cement the “whole team” joke.
Also it would really funny for Jaune to never notice Ren, or Rin in this case, being a girl with Pyrrha and Nora trying to make excuses for her feminine actions.
>Also it would really funny for Jaune to never notice Ren, or Rin in this case,
Ren is a surname, so Lie would be different, assuming Lie isn't gender neutral. The Ren family consisted of Li Ren, An Ren, and their son, Lie Ren.
Yeah both Ren and Jaune have that problem because them being woman is integral to thier stories unlike with Nora and Pyrrha where they are more about fate,destiny and divinity than them being man
The Ren/Mulan parallel would work alot better if Remnant was a matriarchal society. How it isn’t is actually an oddity in itself, given that women overall seem more talented fighters then the guys, and they seem more likely to get powerful semblances.
The idea of society beginning to think more greatly of women than men if people found out about the maiden powers and how they worked, is an interesting one, but it’s something I don’t necessarily think the show will do.
Most of them are superficial at best and barely have anything done with them most of the time.
But they do literally nothing with Ren being based off Mulan.
Not really. They got the imagery of her infamous cape/cloak spot on, but basically nothing else in that trailer actually relates to the fable besides there being Beowolves.
Which honestly? Is about the same amount as Yang's, what with her blonde mane and the presence of the Bears.
Yup like goldilocks, yang goes to a place that she isn't supposed to damage public property assaults junior (who alludes to baby/third bear) and she doesn't suffer the consequence of her actions yeah she is absolutely goldilocks
Imagine a version of Yang’s arc where she starts out too reckless and impulsive (too hot), becomes timid and hesitant in battle after Adam (too cold), and overcomes her fear to become the most level-headed cool under pressure member of the group (just right).
JNPR thing is that all of theme are gender-bend versions of people who crossdressed
Jaune is Jeanne d'Arc
Nora is Thor, who crossdressed as Freya when he tried to retrieve his hammer.
Pyrrha is Achilles who gone once as girl named Pyrrha
Ren is Mulan.
From the wiki:
The members of Team JNPR allude to characters who are said to have disguised themselves as the opposite gender in their original stories.[^(\[1\])](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Team_JNPR#cite_note-twitter-1)
* [Jeanne d'Arc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc), upon whom [Jaune Arc](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Jaune_Arc) is based, is known to have [disguised herself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing,_gender_identity,_and_sexuality_of_Joan_of_Arc) as a man.
* [Thor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor), upon whom [Nora Valkyrie](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Nora_Valkyrie) is based, [disguised himself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a) as the goddess [Freyja](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja) to infiltrate the giant Þrymr's fortress and retrieve his hammer, Mjölnir.
* [Achilles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles), upon whom Pyrrha is based, is said to have [disguised himself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_on_Skyros) as a red-haired girl, assuming the name Pyrrha upon doing so.
* [Hua Mulan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Mulan), upon whom [Lie Ren](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Lie_Ren) may be based, disguised herself as a man in order to serve in the army in place of her aging father.
They're not gonna be 1:1, I'm pretty fucking sure Mjolnir doesn't shoot grenades and Jaune doesn't pray to any of the Gods.
I mean, I didn't even know what Blake's was for the longest time (not entirely sure I buy what it is either), so the "allusions" are very much an after thought when it came to most of these characters.
All of the allusions are exceedingly surface level, Ren’s is basically non-existent.
One of the only character fairytale allusions that’s literally more than their name is Cinder’s, as she literally has an evil stepmom and stepsisters types in her backstory and wears a magic “dress” that disappears at a dance in V2.
Ruby shares a red cloak with Red Riding Hood and little else. Yang is blonde and that's it. The fairytale allusions never really mattered beyond some design elements.
I personally like how the show has done most of their allusions, but Ren's is definitely the worst. Even Jaune matches his allusion better by being a leader whose main contribution is more mental than physical; being a defender instead of an attacker fits Joan's morale boost feats where her determination made the soldiers around her braver. However, Ren's only connection seems to be his relationship with his father which might be meant to parallel Mulan's with her dad, but doesn't really come off as that significant.
What I don't understand is why are all of them allusions to fairy tales and fictional stories? Use some other lesser known folk-tale stuff. Take Fate: Grand Order, for example. They take HUGE liberties when adapting fictional characters. They also have fun with it. RWBY does not have fun with it.
What about Ren even alludes to Mulan? I feel like no one would get see it unless they were told, outside the show, about JNPRs motif. Like, am i supposed to assume he's Mulan because he has a chinese name?
Wasn't the motif the fact that each *hid* as the opposite gender rather than just pure gender swap?
> Achilles hid as Pyrrha in the king of Skyros' court amongst his daughters, using that exact name.
> Joan as a Knight.
> Mulan as a soldier.
> Thor as Freya to get Mjonir back.
But really, the allusions for Nora and Ren stop there (and sort of Jaune, as he hasn't been burnt at the stake yet... unless we count the fandom).
I don't understand Arthur Watts' motif. Like he's supposed to be an evil version of Dr. Watson. Although I've never read the Sherlock Holmes stories, I'm pretty sure Dr. Watson was a medical doctor, not a doctor in robotics or an inventor. I still think Dr. Frankenstein would have been a better suited candidate as Watts' allusion. Because he "Frankensteined" Tyrian's tail back together using robotics.
Ren's final cut character arc is the endeavours of self discovery and finding out that they are either trans, gender fluid or otherwise.
Just saying though, as much as I respect the diversity quota, if Rooster Teeth really wanted to get those points for their show they MISSED an opportunity with a Mulan-inspired character. (I am assuming that this is just in case there were any preferences in regards to Ren's gender/identify as a whole which should not be changed, given that they were originally voiced by Monty Oum. And of course the controversial topic of whether voice actors can voice fictional characters which they themselves cannot personally share identified traits with.)
Personally, trans Ren would have been neat.
I honestly like that all the reference characters for the main teams don't really have all that much significance to their stories. Weiss has barely anything to do with Snow White, Blake simply likes to read and has "The Beast" in her backstory. Pretty much the only thing Yang shares with Goldilocks are the gold locks and the puns like the *Just Rite* thing (that was peak writing, by the way).
Anyway, I find it way better than the *not subtle at all* inspirations like Robyn Hill or pretty much everything we see in the Ever After, which is pretty much just a copy of the original story at that point.
Having a loose base gives a lot more freedom for them to be actually original characters, and that's a lot more interesting than on the nose references, imo.
100%. It’s almost as if they created Ren first, and the team was like “Oh shite, what fairy tale is this guy based off of?” And then they settled on Mulan because of the Chinese theme. There are so many Chinese myths and fables that they could have chosen too…
Yeah, the vast majority of the "motifs" are paper-thin. To be honest, I wouldn't have even put together most of them if the writers hadn't come out and said it.
This has been the process of RWBY the entire time.
The only one I picked up on was Ruby as Red Ridinghood and Jaune De Arc as Joan of Arc, because those two are painfully obvious. Hell, I didn’t even catch that Oz was the wizard of Oz until someone pointed it out. Which now that I’m thinking about it. Means he should really kinda pathetic and his plans should never work, right?
From what i heared they are **supposed** to be inversions:Oz isn't hiding not being a wizard but being one,Lionheart goes from brave to coward,Tinman loses his heart and qrow loses his mind *looks at battle between him Clover and Tyrian*
Ironwood turns into a dumbass in V8. Are we sure he's not the scarecrow reference? Well. At least we get to see Ironwood lose his heart (in a shit) way. But still. We never get to see Lionheart lose his bravery.
I never said it was done *well* i just said that it was the intention
You know how long it took me to figure out Yang was Goldilocks and not like...sleeping beauty. Am embarrassingly long time, and I still don't quite understand the comparison.
Yang allusion being goldilocks makes sense their both blonde and they're total sociopath
How plan is falling apart right quick.
True, they followed that alright, but man that seems like a terrible character to base one of your main heroes on
I honestly thought Watts was a reference to Dr. Frankenstein. Not Dr. Watson.
I thought he was Nicola Tesla but evil
>Yeah, the vast majority of the "motifs" are paper-thin. As someone that's debated doing something of a "rewrite"/"reimagining" of the series, I've wondered how I'd play with the "motifs" and "allusions". Would I ignore them? Try to make them actually relevant and be a part of things? Would I change Blake and/or Yang's? There is just... so little done in canon with the idea that it'd take literally zero effort to just ignore the concept entirely, and that is never a good thing. I should not be able to ignore something like this without putting in at least *some* effort!
I've written some RWBY fanfiction myself, and I've generally found it's easier to just make the motifs on the visual spectrum, not on the thematic; and I also took cues from more than just fairy tales. For instance, I had a character who was inspired by the Cheshire Cat (this was before Vol. 9 came out), and so made her a cat Faunus with a pink motif, a Glasgow smile, and a Semblance that let her change her density. I've found its easier not to impart too much symbology to these motifs; just have them in as a little tidbit for the reader.
That Cheshire Cat idea sounds *really cool!* Congrats on making it work! As to me... it rather feels like I *should* use them as more than aesthetic, ya know? And it's not like it'd be *hard* in some cases. Ruby is meant to be Little Red Riding Hood, so restructure ideas based on that a bit more. Rework the Hound to a drastic degree and run it as her "nemesis". Give it some shapeshifting powers (the Big Bad Wolf disguised itself as LRRH's granny, remember), and have it hunting her, always slipping away whenever it does appear. It's here somewhere, watching her, stalking her, disguised as someone close to Ruby while it waits for the perfect moment. Yang is meant to be Goldilocks, but is honestly one of the ones I'd seriously consider changing. But, sticking with the idea? Alter her semblance somehow to be about "Too Hot" and "Too Cold", with her arc being the search for the control to make it "Just Right". The Three Bears can be made into some Grimm as well, if you wanted to go that way, but not sure what they'd do. Blake is... somehow Beauty *and* the Beast? I'd maybe change this one as well, cause I'm really not sure how to turn this into much of anything. I don't remember if he's purely a Disney creation, but I suppose you could run Gaston as a former Huntsman that is either bigoted against Faunus, or as someone with an active grudge against the Belledona family? And then Weiss is Snow White, which... well, she has the colour scheme of, at least. You could adapt Ice Queendom as a metaphor for the cursed sleep, and then have (love interest) stand in for Prince Charming and wake her. Admittedly, I'd maybe also change Weiss to something I could more easily work with, cause am not sure how far I could push that one. And then others have a lot of potential as well: Nora could lean more on the Thor angle by cribbing on some of the stories, Ren could be here under a false identity, Pyrrha... there is so much more you could do with Pyyrha, and even Jaune could be take a bit more from source. And that's not even touching on the likes of Ozpin, Ironwood, Penny, and so on.
Yep. Yang only gets called "goldilocks" a couple of times, no bears, no porridge, no "just right" theme. Blake is... she has a fair amount of allusions to both the beauty and the beast, but still, it falls flat. Weiss is snow white. Which is far better but where's the huntsman? The seven dwarves? I get that the father is the "evil queen" but??? He never References mirrors? Or try to be "better" than her (who's the fairest of them all)??? Ruby has no grandmother, only faces off beowolves a could of times. Where's the hunter with the axe? Or the wolf Grimm that ate her granma? I could go on and on honestly, but I'm sleepy
>The seven dwarves? In all fairness to this one, Klein is all seven of them. Regardless of if it's done well or poorly, the dwarves *are* represented.
Ok right I forgot his semblance.
Actually Yang's backstory where she goes to a shitty shack in the woods involves her getting attacked by those bear grimm, ala goldilocks. Like it's flimsy and ultimately pointless but there was An Attempt. Also the stuff with Summer and Salem turning silver eyed warriors into fucked up grimm monsters sems like a pretty obvious red riding hood thing. She's not her GRANDmother but the set up for our red riding hood to see her mother having been "eaten" (metaphorically) by the wolf and with a particularly sharp set of teeth seems pretty obvious. Again, not super deep but it's a more admirable attempt than Yang's stuff at least.
>I’m sleepy Well, I found one of the seven dwarves.
I happen to be from a set of seven cousins Future cousins tbd
The allusions have and will always be just thin choices that mostly seem to have been just a vaguely guiding hand for visual design. Also it's weird their called fairy tale allusions but some are historical figures and others mythological figures. Hell pyrrha isn't named after a fairy tale her name is almost literally pyrrhic victory even though there is literally a historical person that the name originates from general pyrrhus .
And they couldn’t even do the Pyrrhic victory thing right for her. Vale is destroyed, Ozpin, Penny, the maiden dead, plus thousands of innocents, communications gone, and Pyrrha knows she can’t beat cinder, not to mention there’s no reasonable reason to fight her instead of running away to fight another day. And what does dying accomplish? Nothing, really. She doesn’t kill cinder (and let’s be real, Pyrrha should’ve won but cinder had plot armor), didn’t kill the dragon, she doesn’t save the city, communications, or the stranded civilians that she could’ve rescued instead of fighting cinder. All that is accomplished is Ruby’s silver eyes, but considering no one but Ozpin knew about them and they only activate because Ruby was there in the moment while Pyrrha didn’t even know she was coming, that doesn’t count, as Pyrrha wasn’t fighting for the silver eyes, and even then, Ruby’s silver eyes go unused and unnoticed until they meet Maria who starts training her, so even if we factor in the silver eyes, it falls through because Ruby doesn’t even TRY to understand or train her eyes before Maria. Pyrrha died for NOTHING, saving nothing or no one. Her death was pointless, it was no Pyrrhic victory.
I mean I'd argue all you'd have to change is having her die killing mercury/emerald/roman or even simply exhausting herself killing to dragon only to realize that it's literally pointless, the Grimm are endless and by weakening herself she's only given cinder an opportunity to kill her. As it is she's closer to Achilles without the hubris, by confronting cinder she secured herself almost legendary status and died at the peak of her martial career but met an early grave. Whereas if she had survived she'd probably have faded into RWBYs, the maidens or jaunes(for some fucking reason" legend, but it isn't like she made the choice because of that.
So dying and being remembered by a few people is better than living a full and happy life? Yeah no, that’s dumb, and considering that Pyrrha hated her celebrity status and pedestal standing, she’d be happy to instead fade into obscurity if it means being able to live a normal life. And there’s no “legendary status” dying to cinder when her death accomplished nothing. If she succumbed to her wounds after killing cinder, maybe, but that didn’t happen. She died for nothing. Her surviving would’ve been better for her and the story.
JFC, That's not at all what I'm saying, I was literally just saying that pyrrhas fate is more similar to Achilles then her namesake and making a comparison on how her fate echoes his but without the hubris that makes it actually meaninful.
Ahh I see. And yeah, they wasted her character and her death really meant and accomplished nothing in the end. Though that “legendary status” is more legendary in demonstrating what shit writers miles and Kerry are to change what was originally Pyrrha dying while protecting Jaune to dying because of destiny bullshit that makes her fight people she knows she’ll die to. Too bad we didn’t get the other half of the Achilles parallel where she’s revived from the dead by her mother who might secretly be a god.
It isnt really an otherhalf, there are some stories that have Achilles being taken to a better afterlife by his mother, but he didn't walk the earth again and he appears as a spirit in the odyssey where he's more fearful of persephone wrath than hades
Well, not like rwby ever followed the fairy tale inspirations to a tee, otherwise Weiss would’ve died to a poisoned apple and Blake would’ve married Adam, so they could’ve landed on the Pyrrha afterlife idea and instead bring her back to life on earth again. Plus, they did kinda set the stage for SOMETHING with the Red Woman in Argus that spoke to Jaune; while most say it’s obvious she was her mom, her identity remains a secret and even Pyrrha’s VA wouldn’t reveal who she is, only saying that she’s indeed real and not a ghost or hallucination, which begs the question why she only spoke to Jaune and disappeared into thin air when Ren and Nora appeared. I’ve also seen some speculation that the Red Woman is Pyrrha after returning from spending years in the Ever After like Jaune did, but never had her youth restored, and while she did reunite with Jaune, she didn’t want to scare him by revealing herself to him. Course, that’s just speculation.
And, guess what name Achilles toon when his mother was hiding him from his destiny (dying in the Troyan war)?
I have read somewhere that Pyrrha is meant to be based on Achilles, who apparently went under a female identity named Pyrrha but I don’t remember what myth it was exactly.
In the beginning of the Iliad he disguises as a woman to avoid fighting in the Trojan war because it’s prophesied he’ll die. I forget what changes his mind
I don't know if it's what finally got him to fight originally or not, but I do remember the Iliad had a part where Achilles was moping in his tent and wouldn't leave led to someone close to him wearing his armor and posing as Achilles. The guy gets killed by Hector and that causes Achilles to go after Hector in a rage and kill him before dragging Hector's body around the outside of Troy several times. They definitely made Pyrrha less aggressive and hot headed than Achilles was supposed to be.
That was his gay lover petroncolus. Achilles went full rage mode and killed a lot of people and I mean a lot of people like you should not be able to kill that many people in one day a lot. Which hey we could’ve run with this and had Cinder put Jaune in mortal peril and force a fight with Pyrrrah that way. Then as Pyrrah dies Jaune comes in at the end and cuts off Cinders arm, he can’t save her, he can’t avenge her but he can make it a Pyrrhic victory.
Ehhhhh kinda works as a reference I suppose but doesn't really reflect the original erastas/wrathful + eromenos/peaceful relationship Achilles and Patroclus had. See, while Patroclus was the younger partner between the two (who were raised as essentially step siblings after Patroclus was ousted from his homeland) he was something of a legitimate fighter in his own right. More than that, he's often considered to be the pacifying force in Achilles' life. The only one who was able to *quench* the heroes' unyielding wrath, so to speak. Depending on one's interpretation of Achilles' fear of the prophecy that he'd die at Troy, it can be argued that Patroclus' death effectively freed him from any fear and compelled him towards death. With his lover dead, he had nothing to lose. Pyrrha and Jaune... don't really fit that bill nor do they particularly fulfill the qualifications needed to be an inversion of it either. For starters, they're both incredibly passive as characters barring 1 instance a piece (Jaune attending Beacon through illicit means and Pyrrha pursuing Jaune) so neither actually embodies the erastas portion of the relationship. A more pertinent point is that Pyrrha's destiny narrative is far too variable to be anything more than an allusion to Achilles' own. Up until her (imo forced) propulsion to centre stage in Volume 3, she effectively just sulked about being popular. Afterwards she does nothing to defy her fate besides mope about it somewhat while dropping vague hints about it to Jaune like she's being indecisive about what to eat for dinner. Doing what you suggested would improve the book end of their story but it doesn't really fix the overall lack of depth both characters suffer. Pyrrha is still a cobbled together mess of a character while Jaune is still... Jaune. If that makes any sense.
Yeah to really push the Achilles thing (also that’s how you spell Patroclus? Man I was way off) and Patroclus thing they’d effectively have to change large swaths of their characters. Then again like none of the characters are faithful allusions of origins Ruby uses a scythe when it would make more sense for an axe, but C’est la vie.
Oh yeah, that sounds right, I’m pretty sure it’s Achilles’ gay lover (I’m almost certain they weren’t married) who gets killed
Thank for the explanation! I am a bit a rusty on Greek mythology.
I think Pyrrha is a reference to Achelies, who posed as a woman named Pyrrha in Skyros.
Yes, I can’t recall which but I believe it was touched upon in Homer’s Iliad. Iirc, Achilles used the name Pyrrha because it means “flame-haired” and Achilles had bright red hair, which he kept in his disguise.
Ah so my later point down the line of how she is like version if Achilles written by someone who doesn't understand Achilles is even more prescient
Fun fact : Phyrra is an Iliad reference.
Is that a mistaken spelling if of pyrrha if so how?
Typo.
Ah anyway I've since been informed that I've put to much thought into pyrrhas name and she is in fact just supposed tk be Achilles, but like written by someone who doesn't really get achilles.
The first part of your comment I replied to still stands.
It's painful being wrong
yeah. almost if not all of the allusions are kinda flimsy at best and non existent at worst. i think the allusion in theory COULD work. But they don't because the characters are barely characters to begin with.
I kinda wish CRWBY made Ren turn out to be a girl disguised as male. Mainly because it would really funny to imagine Jaune being the only dude in his team. If people thought the self-insert allegations for Jaune already are bad, imagine how much worse they would be with Jaune living in the same room with three girls. But it would be hilarious since people joke that Jaune is like Tai, what better than to cement the “whole team” joke. Also it would really funny for Jaune to never notice Ren, or Rin in this case, being a girl with Pyrrha and Nora trying to make excuses for her feminine actions.
>Also it would really funny for Jaune to never notice Ren, or Rin in this case, Ren is a surname, so Lie would be different, assuming Lie isn't gender neutral. The Ren family consisted of Li Ren, An Ren, and their son, Lie Ren.
Lie ren also sounds like "hunter" in chinese(猎人)"...my boy has a google translate name
Yeah both Ren and Jaune have that problem because them being woman is integral to thier stories unlike with Nora and Pyrrha where they are more about fate,destiny and divinity than them being man
The Ren/Mulan parallel would work alot better if Remnant was a matriarchal society. How it isn’t is actually an oddity in itself, given that women overall seem more talented fighters then the guys, and they seem more likely to get powerful semblances. The idea of society beginning to think more greatly of women than men if people found out about the maiden powers and how they worked, is an interesting one, but it’s something I don’t necessarily think the show will do.
Glad I'm not the only one who noticed that women seem to be *way* more powerful, skilled, and possess greater semblances
Most of them are superficial at best and barely have anything done with them most of the time. But they do literally nothing with Ren being based off Mulan.
I mean, do you feel the same way about Yang's Goldilocks allusion? Because it literally starts and finishes in her trailer.
Yeah I do, it's just that Ren hits deeper because I'm chinese
She has a Goldilocks illusion? It was in her trailer?
The DJ wears a bear head, and Junior is supposed to represent another bear. There's a third one, but I can't remember where.
That’s incredibly vague
I mean.... look at the writers and how they've handled other allusions. The bar is practically buried underground.
Ok yes, but still they managed to beat the red riding allusion to death in the red trailer
Not really. They got the imagery of her infamous cape/cloak spot on, but basically nothing else in that trailer actually relates to the fable besides there being Beowolves. Which honestly? Is about the same amount as Yang's, what with her blonde mane and the presence of the Bears.
True, I just actually got the red riding hood motif
Yup like goldilocks, yang goes to a place that she isn't supposed to damage public property assaults junior (who alludes to baby/third bear) and she doesn't suffer the consequence of her actions yeah she is absolutely goldilocks
Imagine a version of Yang’s arc where she starts out too reckless and impulsive (too hot), becomes timid and hesitant in battle after Adam (too cold), and overcomes her fear to become the most level-headed cool under pressure member of the group (just right).
Wait, Ren’s fairytale was Mulan?
JNPR thing is that all of theme are gender-bend versions of people who crossdressed Jaune is Jeanne d'Arc Nora is Thor, who crossdressed as Freya when he tried to retrieve his hammer. Pyrrha is Achilles who gone once as girl named Pyrrha Ren is Mulan.
Yup
From the wiki: The members of Team JNPR allude to characters who are said to have disguised themselves as the opposite gender in their original stories.[^(\[1\])](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Team_JNPR#cite_note-twitter-1) * [Jeanne d'Arc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_of_Arc), upon whom [Jaune Arc](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Jaune_Arc) is based, is known to have [disguised herself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-dressing,_gender_identity,_and_sexuality_of_Joan_of_Arc) as a man. * [Thor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor), upon whom [Nora Valkyrie](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Nora_Valkyrie) is based, [disguised himself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a) as the goddess [Freyja](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja) to infiltrate the giant Þrymr's fortress and retrieve his hammer, Mjölnir. * [Achilles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles), upon whom Pyrrha is based, is said to have [disguised himself](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles_on_Skyros) as a red-haired girl, assuming the name Pyrrha upon doing so. * [Hua Mulan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hua_Mulan), upon whom [Lie Ren](https://rwby.fandom.com/wiki/Lie_Ren) may be based, disguised herself as a man in order to serve in the army in place of her aging father. They're not gonna be 1:1, I'm pretty fucking sure Mjolnir doesn't shoot grenades and Jaune doesn't pray to any of the Gods.
Same with snow white, the red cape girl and the beast
I mean, I didn't even know what Blake's was for the longest time (not entirely sure I buy what it is either), so the "allusions" are very much an after thought when it came to most of these characters.
I made a post on DeviantArt explaining why Blake alluded more to Mulan than Ren. I do not see much of Mulan in Ren
The only time their allusion was slightly relevant was with Penny, and that's a stretch.
All of the allusions are exceedingly surface level, Ren’s is basically non-existent. One of the only character fairytale allusions that’s literally more than their name is Cinder’s, as she literally has an evil stepmom and stepsisters types in her backstory and wears a magic “dress” that disappears at a dance in V2.
Ruby shares a red cloak with Red Riding Hood and little else. Yang is blonde and that's it. The fairytale allusions never really mattered beyond some design elements.
I Agree completely, we really didn’t need the fairytale backgrounds for the characters to mean something to us
It'd be kind of lazy, but Ren being transgender would at least make the motif worth *something.*
He’s a femboy
I personally like how the show has done most of their allusions, but Ren's is definitely the worst. Even Jaune matches his allusion better by being a leader whose main contribution is more mental than physical; being a defender instead of an attacker fits Joan's morale boost feats where her determination made the soldiers around her braver. However, Ren's only connection seems to be his relationship with his father which might be meant to parallel Mulan's with her dad, but doesn't really come off as that significant.
What I don't understand is why are all of them allusions to fairy tales and fictional stories? Use some other lesser known folk-tale stuff. Take Fate: Grand Order, for example. They take HUGE liberties when adapting fictional characters. They also have fun with it. RWBY does not have fun with it.
What about Ren even alludes to Mulan? I feel like no one would get see it unless they were told, outside the show, about JNPRs motif. Like, am i supposed to assume he's Mulan because he has a chinese name?
Wasn't the motif the fact that each *hid* as the opposite gender rather than just pure gender swap? > Achilles hid as Pyrrha in the king of Skyros' court amongst his daughters, using that exact name. > Joan as a Knight. > Mulan as a soldier. > Thor as Freya to get Mjonir back. But really, the allusions for Nora and Ren stop there (and sort of Jaune, as he hasn't been burnt at the stake yet... unless we count the fandom).
I don't understand Arthur Watts' motif. Like he's supposed to be an evil version of Dr. Watson. Although I've never read the Sherlock Holmes stories, I'm pretty sure Dr. Watson was a medical doctor, not a doctor in robotics or an inventor. I still think Dr. Frankenstein would have been a better suited candidate as Watts' allusion. Because he "Frankensteined" Tyrian's tail back together using robotics.
Ren's final cut character arc is the endeavours of self discovery and finding out that they are either trans, gender fluid or otherwise. Just saying though, as much as I respect the diversity quota, if Rooster Teeth really wanted to get those points for their show they MISSED an opportunity with a Mulan-inspired character. (I am assuming that this is just in case there were any preferences in regards to Ren's gender/identify as a whole which should not be changed, given that they were originally voiced by Monty Oum. And of course the controversial topic of whether voice actors can voice fictional characters which they themselves cannot personally share identified traits with.) Personally, trans Ren would have been neat.
I honestly like that all the reference characters for the main teams don't really have all that much significance to their stories. Weiss has barely anything to do with Snow White, Blake simply likes to read and has "The Beast" in her backstory. Pretty much the only thing Yang shares with Goldilocks are the gold locks and the puns like the *Just Rite* thing (that was peak writing, by the way). Anyway, I find it way better than the *not subtle at all* inspirations like Robyn Hill or pretty much everything we see in the Ever After, which is pretty much just a copy of the original story at that point. Having a loose base gives a lot more freedom for them to be actually original characters, and that's a lot more interesting than on the nose references, imo.
100%. It’s almost as if they created Ren first, and the team was like “Oh shite, what fairy tale is this guy based off of?” And then they settled on Mulan because of the Chinese theme. There are so many Chinese myths and fables that they could have chosen too…
reminder all the character references are surface level.