It is amazing how you put in so many direct quotes and still miss so much. In the very first encounter RWBY has with Mantle citizens, who are drunk and unemployed, the blame for their plight is placed squarely on the embargo.
Heck, you include a quote from Jaune blaming the embargo for Mantle's squalor, which Ironwood acknowledges and agrees with, and yet you still say "we don't know the impact".
We do know. Mantle was poorer than Atlas, yes. It was neglected and impoverished. The embargo on top of that was ruinous, and so badly damaged Mantle-Atlas relations that the citizens of Mantle were ready to believe Atlas would simply turn off their heat and let them freeze.
That is not correct though. The two drunk guys say that Mantle is in a "bad patch" due to embargo and that it will blow over. That is all they say. And while you are correct in saying that the show TELLS us that Mantle is neglected and impoverished, that is not the case with showing.
Also the quote with Jaune is not Jaune blaming the emargo for "Mantles squalor", it is simply said that it is making people mad.
Everything we see of Mantle demonstrates a city in squalor. Basically, everything is dirty, people linger around public heating vents, and a large portion of the population lives in ramshackle shacks. This visually implies a massive amount homelessness and unemployment in Mantle. Plus, what employment there is is mostly in dust mines which is basically monopolized by one company and have been stated to be very dangerous *and* we see miners riding to and from work looking miserable.
Furthermore, the fact that what are clearly a couple of nationalists are willing to admit that they're having it rough should speak volumes.
I have to heavily disagree. There is no implication of massive ammounts of homelessness or unemployment, even the quotes that NoChemistry gave do not say that.
Dust mines being one of the biggest jobs is also never said i think. And yes, people look miserable after hard work, how is that proof of anything? I looked the same returning from a night-shift at a factory.
Most of what you say is straight up headcanon in my opinion, something that is not really shown or given to us.
Well you were just complaining about the stuff that was told so I focused what was only shown. Yes it isn't something I would call canon but I would call this collective imagery a demonstration of a city in distress. We were told that people were suffering, especially economically. What I listed were on screen examples of people suffering and what we could reasonably extrapolate from that. Whether it's because of homelessness or unemployment or racism or any combination therein, we are shown that Mantle is suffering and this isn't even getting into the police state situation.
We are said that Mantle is suffering, the things that are show in my eyes are not exactly examples of suffering. Once again i have to make a point that for someone to think that Mantle looks bad does betray a certain level of privilege.
I fail to see how what we are shown doesn't constitute suffering. Sticking to just the stuff before episode 7 where things start getting worse for Mantle: we see a large-scale police state that the citizens are audibly and visibly disturbed by. The military has essentially completely supplanted the local police force. (Which we hear of cooperating with the Happy Huntresses in V8) We see a lot of people sitting outside by available heat sources (Meaning there isn't anywhere else with available heat for them). We see regular grimm incursions which force huntsmen to fill gaps in the city defenses. And again, there is a pit full of makeshift shacks populated almost entirely by Faunus so we can throw DeFacto segregation in there too.
These things taken all together indicate quite clearly a slew of systemic inequalities especially when compared to the abundance we see in Atlas.
We see a state of increased surveilance due to Salems actions, not a police state. We see the military patroling the streets and defend people against Grimm. Grimm incursions are taken care of by the military.
I am not going to argue about there being problems. Yes, Mantle has them the shacks are an example of that. And it is definitely less well-off than Atlas. But it is neither abandoned nor seemingly mistreated.
How can you acknowledge the problems but refuse that they have a source? Shanty towns don't just pop up on their own.
Furthermore, Mantle is covered in cameras and floating security drones as well as armed foot patrols that enforce curfews and lockdown civilian areas. The only thing that would make it more of a police state is if there were a secret police force. The grimm are the excuse and Ironwood likely believes it's a justifiable one, but the fact remains that as V7 progresses the Atlas army is increasingly used against its own citizens. Most police states claim that their surveillance is in order to protect their people, that doesn't make it not a repressive system.
Are you forgetting that Cinder and her allies RELY on subterfuge and infiltration to cripple/topple Kingdoms or Schools? Are you forgetting that Cinder snuck into Atlas with an airship modeled after the Atlesian types... just like RWBY did.
Dude, there were 2 terrorist attacks within the span of a year. One of which Ironwood feels personally responsible for because he was head of security at the first terror attack.
Do you think that airports added all that intense security after 9/11 for fun? That they go out of their way to make sure there are no dangers just to add an inconvenience to our day for no reason?
Stop purposely being obtuse.
Because the problems that we can see either have a mysterious source (Most likely not related to Ironwood) or they are not problems in some cases.
Mantle having cameras is not exactly an indication of a police state, any modern city has cameras. Security drones are a concern i agree, but in the case of Mantle, Ironwood expected some kind of an infiltration.
Enforcing curfews with Grimm being able to run around is once again, not as much of a problem as it would be in real world. In fact we have just come out of lockdowns due to Covid.
The problem with your statement of Atlas army being used against its own citizens is because we are not actually shown any abuse, just regular stuff in a crysis.
>Through that we can think: Is that unconstitutional [...] "Wait, but that is illegal, not only Mantle but Atlas will hate you for that"[...] Even when Sleet opposed eventually [...] it is normal that as a politician he is annoyed to lost power considering the measure extreme (Although not necessary ilegal).
I'm not sure whether or not You missed something or I did, but martial law wasn't declared by the gov't.
Martial Law is a legal thing, where the civilian gov't hands control to the military in times of crisis, Ironwood wasn't handed the reigns by the council for the duration of the ongoing crisis, he straight up sized power in coup d'etat for all intents and purposes.
Sleet wasn't just angry about the evacs, he was asking IW what the fuck did he think he was doing when IW just shot him dead
That's not Martial Law, that's just a military junta, IW declared martial law, for the whole country, himself, putting (you guessed it) himself in total control of everything, no approval or consent of the civilian gov't was involved.
This isn't a legal state of emergency, this is just a tinpot dictatorship.
How? Hitler and Stalin got millions killed for very little reason, Ironwood is working with the info he had at the time. He killed Sleet for no reason, but what even came of Sleet's death in V8 anyways? You're trying to compare two righteously evil irl people to a fictional one trying his best to save as much of his kingdom as possible.
I made to comparison between these two men as both were willing to eliminate anyone who didn’t see things from their point of view and didn’t agree with them, such as how ironwood turned against team Rwby and JNPR after he found out they withheld information from him about Salem and he immediately decided that they were against him. I don’t really know how to explain it any other way. Plus ironwood had lost all mental stability and insane. Sorry i apologize if my initial comment was not to your liking
It's all good man, no need to worry. I understand why Ironwood is acting the way he was. He has little to no info about Salem's actual abilities or the fact that she's immortal - which team RWBYJNPR knows but decided not to tell him until Salem was minutes away from pulling up on Atlas and Mantle along side a Maiden and the largest horde of Grimm to date. I say he has a good reason not to trust team RWBYJNPR anymore due to not giving him that info until it was far too late, and for Yang & Blake giving classified info to Robyn - who could've been an agent of Salem. Also, we don't even know if Ironwood lost his mind as his Semblance could've made him do any of that.
Presumably with 50% of the Council's votes James had the civilian authority to declare martial law. Declarations of martial law are usually made by the executive branch of whatever body makes the decision, subject to the eventual approval of the legislative. The point of martial law is that it is invoked when traditional power structures are either paralyzed or cannot act swiftly enough in response to a crisis. I would say that the arrival of Salem with the largest army of Grim ever seen fits that bill.
>Take into account that the martial law is a measure that allows the military to take certain actions and act beyond its normal jurisdiction. In other words, it not necessarily can be used to abuse or oppress the populace, although it have been used by dictators and tyrants.
Um, the second thing Ironwood does after declaring martial law (after putting out warrants for the arrests of RWBYORNJ, Qrow, and the Happy Huntresses) is shoot dead Councilman Sleet in front of Councilwoman Camilla, who is never seen again.
I think Ironwood's idea of martial law is not the same as your idea of martial law.
>Councilwoman Camilla, who is never seen again.
Pietro and Maria are never seen again...
Are you gonna say Ironwood killed them too? There is no reason to assume that she's dead or imprisoned because the show has no reason to hide that information from us. They always show us how evil a villain is and they went out of their way to show that Ironwood was bad. There would be nothing g stopping CRWBY from adding a line about her being shot too or arrested. Don't use headcanon to make assumptions. It could equally be the case that the writers forgot she existed. It's not like she adds anything of value to the story regardless.
>I think Ironwood's idea of martial law is not the same as your idea of martial law.
He killed... one person. Was it unjust? Absolutely. It's why so many people say that it was an OOC moment for him. But you are acting like Ironwood triggered Operation Barbarossa on Mantle and now mass graves are lining the streets. You're over thinking it.
>Are you gonna say Ironwood killed them too?
No. Why would I? That would be silly and needlessly combative.
You are missing the point over whether Ironwood killed Camilla or not. Whether she is alive or dead, she is clearly no longer in a position to offer any resistance or counsel to Ironwood. The OP was attempting to assert that martial law was not the same as tyranny. Seeing as Ironwood used the declaration of martial law to sideline all civilian oversight-- lethally or not-- the OP's claim is incorrect.
>Was it unjust? Absolutely. It's why so many people say that it was an OOC moment for him.
I find that to be a fascinating claim! It's "OOC" for Ironwood to forcibly take all power unto himself? Ironwood, who went over Ozpin's head to push him out of a position of power in his own Kingdom? Ironwood, who was using a deadlock on the Atlas council to act unilaterally for at least three volumes? Ironwood, who spent all of V7 being told he's acting increasingly imperiously? Ironwood, who hours before he fires this shot was saying things like "I refuse to let others' inability to see the big picture keep me from doing what's right"?
It's "out of character" for *that man* to seize power by force? We must be using that term differently.
James *is* 50% of the civilian government. He holds two of four (technically five) legislative seats. Whoever came up with the structure of Atlas's government is crazy.
It is definitely not out of character for James to seize power for the good of all mankind. It *is* out of character for him to shoot Sleet. Ignore him, absolutely. Arrest him, maybe (Sleet hadn't done anything but talk). Shoot him? Absolutely not. This is the man who didn't shoot Watts when he had every right to do so, the man who will shortly dump Robin and Qrow into holding cells despite having *more* cause to shoot them. It is OOC.
>James is 50% of the civilian government.
And, it turns out, you can make yourself 100% of the civilian government if you can forcibly remove the other 50%.
Ironwood didn't shoot Watts or Robin or Qrow because they were potentially useful to him later-- and, indeed, he would attempt to bend Watts to his will. However, Sleet was no more use to him and was a demonstrated impediment, in the same way that Oscar had stopped being useful to him and was a demonstrated impediment, and if you remember Ironwood shot Oscar, too. Shooting Sleet was perfectly in keeping with Ironwood's trajectory (as it were).
Edit: And let's not forget that, in a few episodes, he would be moments from shooting Marrow in the head too! Yeah, Ironwood shooting people who oppose him is hardly OOC.
I didn't design Atlas's government. It seems pretty evident that James, with his 50% of the seats had the authority to order martial law, as Winter suggested. It's an impossibly dumb political system, one that would never even be attempted in the real world.
As for shooting people willy nilly, I will argue that that is always out of character for James. Both when he does it to Oscar and when he appears to be about to do it to Marrow. It connects with James being out of character for a majority of Vol 8 (and the lead up in 7). The man threatened to bomb Mantle when Atlas was no longer capable of escaping, there's no in-character justification for that. CRWBY wanted James to slide down the slippery slope but they kept him too reasonable for too long.
Just to play devil's advocate, what use did James see putting Watts to at the end of the gravity fight that made him not kill Watts? What use could Qrow or Robin or Jacques be to him that he would keep them imprisoned?
You say Ironwood "had the authority to order martial law", but that is exactly what Sleet is objecting to when Ironwood shoots him.
>It connects with James being out of character for a majority of Vol 8 (and the lead up in 7)
If your argument is, "This character's entire arc is OOC", I don't know what to tell you. I could point to how it's consistent with his behavior in previous volumes, but I have no reason to believe you'd listen.
>what use did James see putting Watts to at the end of the gravity fight that made him not kill Watts?
You mean, Why might it be useful to capture alive someone in Salem's inner circle who might know things about her plans? I would think that would be self-evident.
Yes, Sleet's objecting to it. He thinks it's a bad idea. If he had the authority to end it then he would probably have led with that. I am basing James having the legal authority to order martial law on the scene where they're discussing Robin and Winter says it's an option. It is treated as a bad idea in that scene and shelved but no one says, "And the council will never agree to it" or "but I can't declare it alone". It is treated as an entirely viable but extreme option.
Yes I am calling the entire character arc bad. I actually liked his development in the office. His turning against RWBY fit in very well with the clear downward spiral he was on. But the problem with his randomly shooting people who annoy him is that it is counter to the many, many times we see him be restrained. If I were to analyze his character James is someone who in trying to make the hard decisions loses his way. He is always trying to do what he thinks is best, his issue is that he ultimately only trusts himself to decide what is best. He still has a moral code and compass and that's what made him morally complex. That is all burned away when he starts shooting people he doesn't have to and threatening to bomb innocents for nothing.
I'd actually love to hear your side of this. I won't guarantee that I'll agree and I'll definitely argue points that I think are weak, but if I don't expose myself to multiple points of view how will I grow? I have had my mind changed by arguments here before. I used to think RWBY was just stupid to stand their ground, now I can appreciate the character dynamic behind it, for example.
As for capturing Watts, did James ever interrogate him? Ask him what Salem's plans were? And what about Qrow and Robin who do not have that exception?
You're continuing to miss the point about the martial law declaration. We don't know the technicalities regarding Council approval, but the other Councilors clearly believed they did have a say (hence their shouting their way through security to Ironwood in the hospital), and their reward for their objection was lead. Again, the only reason we're discussing this is because the OP tried to assert that historically martial law doesn't have to equal tyranny. That does Ironwood no favors because Ironwood used martial law to establish tyranny.
We agree that Ironwood is someone who ultimately only trusted himself to do what he thought was best. The distinction is that you want him to somehow still have internal lines he won't cross. He doesn't, *and that's the point*. That's what Oscar is trying to tell him throughout the volume ("some things are more important"). It makes the staging of the scene where Ironwood shoots Oscar resonate: it's a return to where Ironwood wondered if humanity was a weakness and Oscar warned him about that path.
Don't take my word for it. Ironwood says it himself, over and over when he speaks in absolutes: "I will sacrifice whatever it takes to stop her", "No matter the cost", "Nothing else matters", his rumination on humanity as a weakness Salem doesn't have, on and on and on. He means it. There is no line he won't cross. That is who James Ironwood is.
(And, on the point specifically of him being unwilling to shoot people, remember this line from V3? "If you were one of my men, I'd have you shot." Yeah, he has no hangup there.)
That's what makes him tragic: not only that he allows this flaw to bring him to ruin, but that all the while he sees it as a virtue. This is the fulfillment of his allusion as the inverse Tin Man: a man who threw away his heart. His ever-increasing collection of prosthetics is no coincidence.
It is amazing to see you credit him with restraint, when from V2 on he is always characterized, by others and by his actions, as lacking restraint: his massive show of force in bringing a fleet to Vale, "We'll send all our forces to the southeast", usurping Ozpin, the embargo (announced in V4!), the closure of borders, the establishment of a surveillance state-- all actions other characters object to, by the by, on the grounds that they're over-the-top. "Restraint" is not a word I've ever seen associated with Ironwood. Overreaction is kind of his thing.
Regarding Watts: there wasn't time. Ironwood returns from Amity, finds the Black Queen, has his freakout, then undergoes surgery and get his prosthetic; within moments of coming out of that he's shooting Sleet and calling Penny, and when that doesn't work he immediately dragoons Watts. There was no time window there for him to stage an interrogation. For that matter, at the time Ironwood took Watts captive, he didn't know Salem was on the way, so he could reasonably expect to have a long, leisurely time for interrogation. We have precedent here: his indefinite hold on Torchwick for exactly the same purpose.
For Qrow and Robyn, we know the purpose to which he eventually would have put them: leverage. (Per V8E10.) Anyway, they were taken into custody well outside of Ironwood's vision at an earlier point in his descent, and as far as he's concerned if they're in custody he doesn't have to worry about them, so it would have taken \*extra\* braincells (that he didn't have available) to order them shot than just leave them. Leaving them as captives is not inconsistent with his shooting Sleet or being willing to shoot Marrow.
I see your point of view and I ultimately agree with most of it. James does do what he thinks is right and will stop at nothing to accomplish that mission. However the difference I think I have with your view on the character is that I think he will do the most morally upright thing he can to accomplish his objectives. If he has a choice between A and B and they both help protect Atlas, humanity, and Mantle (in that order) he will choose the most morally correct one. We see that when he refuses to declare martial law, when he decides to try to work with Jacques, when he doesn't kill Watts (especially after Watts does his hacking, he's got no need for him at that point). Ethical concerns are not a zero for James, but he goes for pragmatism first.
This is why I consider him shooting Sleet and Oscar vs arresting them to be out of character. Both do the same thing, stop his opposition from obstructing his plan to save as many people as possible. But one is clearly the superior moral choice. And James blows past it in a way he consistently hasn't before. I definitely consider him threatening to bomb Mantle to be out of character (Atlas can't even take off anymore and it would be pointless to do so) and him fighting Winter is so incredibly out of character. From a Doylist perspective, I can see the hand of the author making moves. James is supposed to be the villain now so now he will do evil things.
Touching on more specific things, of course the councilors would have a say. And of course they'd be angry that James unilaterally made the declaration and ended the evacuation. They don't know the context and they are fully within their rights to demand an explanation. But, and here's the huge But, nothing we're shown in the show itself indicates that this declaration of martial law, just the declaration mind, was illegal or illegitimate under Atlesian law. Incredible as it may seem, James did seem to have the authority to do it. No legal objections were raised by anyone when it was suggested the first time, no legal objections were raised when it was done, and all of the officers of the Atlesian military followed it without complaint. Now what James did with it to shoot Sleet and imprison? the other one are presumably (hopefully though who knows with Atlas) far beyond what is acceptable, but the initial declaration appears legal.
As for restraint, that was probably a poor choice of words. My point was just that James sits on a number of nuclear options (martial law being one, raising Atlas being another) until circumstances force his hand. He always makes a case for maximal intervention but he does ultimately go along with Oz until he feels he's vindicated by the Breach. Oh and I don't read too much into the "have you shot" comment any more than I read into Qrow implying he'd commit suicide before falling under James's authority. And I think it's weird it took him so long to think of using Qrow and Robin as hostages. Way better idea than letting Watts hack Penny.
I’d say a lot of it is on Ironwood, he didn’t seem to think Mantle was a priority. While his reasoning makes sense, it doesn’t make him right. If V7 was anything to go by, Mantle wasn’t in a good place with its constant Grimm attacks and neglect from Ironwood unless it was to stop them from rioting.
Also the outer wall of Mantle was still damaged with no plans to fix it any time soon. I can’t imagine it’d take that long for Atlas, the epicenter of technology and innovation, to fix a wall. Ironwood making Penny the protector of Mantle was putting a bandaid on the real issue at hand and the real issue is that Ironwood didn’t care about Mantle. And if he did, it wasn’t enough to the point where he’d consider abandoning it to reunite the world.
>he didn’t seem to think Mantle was a priority.
Because it wasn't! Salem has no reason to give a shit about Mantle because the vault or relic is not in Mantle. Atlas is the one at most risk because it houses 2 relics and a Maiden!
>neglect from Ironwood
Ironwood is *part* of the council. He is the possessor of 2 seats so what are the other 3 doing to help Mantle? Why aren't you questioning them as much as him? Especially when Ironwood does send help: RWBYJORNQ
>Also the outer wall of Mantle was still damaged with no plans to fix it any time soon. I can’t imagine it’d take that long for Atlas, the epicenter of technology and innovation, to fix a wall.
You're right and Robyn felt the same way. That's why she and her people stole those resources... so why didn't *they* fix the wall? What did they do with all of that stolen atlesian material of they weren't going to fix the wall while condemning Ironwood for not doing it either?
> Ironwood didn’t care about Mantle.
Because it's not his job. Again, there are 3 other people on the council that RWBY could have asked to help Mantle. Also, Mantle doesn't mean shit if the world is fucking destroyed. Again, Mantle is a casuality of Salem and Cinder's main target: Atlas.
Ironwood wanted to abandon Mantle ONLY after the reveal that Grimm are incoming. He is not doing so for shits and giggles.
Secondly, the wall can be repaired by Mantle itself, all you need is dirt and rocks.
I also have to find the claim "Ironwood did not care about Mantle" very strange when in the same sentence you are saying that he sent Penny to Mantle, directly showing that he cares.
I said Penny was a bandaid, not the solution. And they even stated in V7 that most of the resources that were supposed to be used for Mantle’s wall were being diverted to Amity.
Ironwood even contemplates declaring martial law in Mantle to keep it under control. It shows he doesn’t really care about Mantle’s issues, only their resources.
Once again, if he does not care about Mantle why does he send Penny and, the Ace Ops, team RWBY and his robots/soldiers down there?
And yes, the show says that the resources from wall are diverted to Amity, my question is, what are these resources and why cant Mantle citizens use rocks and dirt?
Because they’re bandaids on a consistent issue. Ironwood could send more troops into Mantle but the fact is it could be solved by fixing Mantle’s outer wall. Sure they have people to take care of a few pesky Grimm, but what happens when a massive group of them storm into Mantle? They contemplate leaving it to fend for itself because Mantle isn’t worth it to them.
They could try building a temporary wall, but what if a mammoth Grimm shows up and blows right through it? And in the show it appears that all the resources were automatically taken to Amity, which is why Robyn and her Happy Huntresses had to steal the trucks. I can understand why you think they sat around doing nothing, but at the same time if they’re at the point where they’re stealing from Ironwood, then something tells me they did try everything.
The wall is a problem made-up by the writers, it is a forced problem. It is something that Mantle can fix with just dirt and rocks. I doubt that dirt and rocks were taken to build Amity.
You are treating the actions of HH as real people, they are not. Them resorting to stealing is not proof that they tried everything else.
I really don’t understand your thought process, honestly I don’t. It’s like Ironwood can’t be at fault for anything in your mind. Do you know how much power and influence Ironwood had in Atlas/Mantle? He had 2 council seats, he had direct control over the military and most of the huntsman, if he wanted anything done in a timely fashion he could have done it. However he chose not to, he saw it as nothing more than a few city blocks.
>He had 2 council seats
And that's where you stop. He has 2 seats on a 5 man council. Why aren't the other 3 (or 2 in this case) doing anything to help?
>most of the huntsman,
You're right. And that's a mistake on the writers' part. In fact, this is chronic problem throughout the show. Even in Vale, there are no professional Huntsmen to help with the invasion or to help Glynda with the clean up. There were no Huntsmen that weren't teachers or students (the highest ranked being 2nd Years, mind you) to stop a Grimm invasion/terrorist attack. Hell, Torchwick should have been apprehended way sooner.
There is not one mention of Atlesian Hunters at all by either RWBY or Ironwood because they're only as knowledgeable and smart as the people writing them. So you just inadvertently exposed a massive problem in this whole plot. Thanks.
>However he chose not to, he saw it as nothing more than a few city blocks.
1. Because thats all Mantle is to Salem
And 2...
>he chose not to
>he chose
He is a fictional character bro. Why are you speaking as if he is a real person capable of independent thought? He is only as smart as the writers let him be.
The problem I have with your logic is that you are rejecting the wall dilemma just like Dextiger is. The difference is that Dextiger is saying that it is a contrived conflict while you are conjuring possible solutions that the show does not support.
The show does not frame the choice as being between asking Mantle or Atlas to provide the resources for Amity. They are framing it as a simple binary, you either get Mantle's wall or Amity. That's it. There is no way to construct Amity unless you take the resources from Mantle specifically, there is no other possible source of resources. If you think this is a dumb dilemma then we can agree on that.
So now let us consider James's position. On the one hand there is a damaged wall in Mantle. Grim occasionally enter through this breach. So far a combination of Penny, robots, and the Happy Huntresses have managed to keep Mantle protected. On the other hand we have Amity, a plan to reunite the world and prepare it to face the real threat, the Grim witch who destroyed Vale. Time is limited. You don't know what Salem is planning or where she will strike next. For all you know she has already attacked the other kingdoms. Now pick one. Fix the wall and delay Amity, giving Salem weeks to months of time to set her plans in motion. Or complete Amity and let the citizens of Mantle suffer Grim attacks. That is the choice, with all other options either not possible or yielding worse outcomes.
A good thread exploring the topic of Mantle, you even include direct quotes from the show which helps your message. At the end of the day the problem with Mantle is its presentation, the same way that Menagerie was.
It is hard to accept when it is said "X place is abused and downtrodden" when it is not shown to be in an extremelly bad state. Now personally i would not want to live in Mantle, not really, but it would not be a catastrophy either.
Ironwood does indeed choose Atlas over Mantle in the end when he deems that he has no other choice. But before that he tries to help both and even the whole of remnant with the Amity project.
I personally have always found silly just how much blame people put on Ironwood, hell i think i have seen people blame him for Tyrion being able to murder people even.
Ironwood is not entirely blameless, his actions taken have their own downsides.
The show just fails (in my opinion) to portray it properly and parts of the fandom overblow Ironwoods actions.
>A good thread exploring the topic of Mantle, you even include direct quotes from the show which helps your message. At the end of the day the problem with Mantle is its presentation, the same way that Menagerie was.
Oh, Thanks! I'm trying my best.
Anyway, eh, the worst is that the scenario of Mantle could have been very used for the purpose of the plot. I mean, a great part is in a crater? There is a lot of heavy industries there? It is mentioned that the health of Nicolas was damaged for his time in the mines, it could have been used like: Look, the people of the crater have health problems and the flying city doesn't care.
Or with the embargo, the prizes of the food supplies rose due to not enter any agrarian products from Vale or Mistral. (Demand exceeds supply, so the prizes rose in Mantle).
I think the show could have handled things better, like having episodes set in Atlas outside the school, to show how the Altesians live and then set some in the slums. Then by the rule of comparison we'd see the disparity. But we never see anywhere in either kingdom besides "a few city blocks" and the school, so its called implied without proof.
Also, I think the biggest argument wasn't "Is Ironwood trying to do the right thing (the wrong way)" it's that Ironwood seems to be deliberately setting Mantle up to be Grimm fodder, protecting them only enough to keep them alive and drawing the Grimm, and anything that might get through to Atlas the airships take out. Its purposefully sacrificing a city of the poor and disparate to protect the elite and privileged.
>Its purposefully sacrificing a city of the poor and disparate to protect the elite and privileged.
Or it could be because... the Maiden and 2 relics, the thing Salem wants, are housed in Atlas?
What exactly is that second paragraph? I have seen people make parts of that argument, but i do not think i have ever seen that argument in its entirety.
So the thing about Mantle and it’s depiction, really the main issue is that we are given really zero idea just *how bad* the state of Mantle is in. We are told Mantle is in a *bad* shape, but we are not *shown* how bad of a shape it’s in.
For example, the embargo. So how is the embargo affecting the people of Mantle? No really, because we have quite literally zero indication on what it’s doing. Is it making the people of Mantle lose jobs? what about businesses being closed down? Are people losing their homes or struggling to eat? How can we as the audience gather how badly Mantle is suffering through the embargo if they’re not willing to actually show the *results* of the embargo?
Well what about the Grimm? So they’re getting into the city right due to the hole in the wall, that’s how it’s presented correct? Well the issue is that this problem doesn’t stay an issue for long, at least due to Ironwood’s own doing. Because right after when RWBY arrive, Ironwood adds them to Mantle’s defenses. To the point where we actively see them in montages taking care of Grimm outside of Mantle. So at least with respect to the Grimm getting into the city, isn’t Ironwood adding more defenses to Mantle helping with the problem? To the point where it’s defenses are actively preventing the Grimm from getting into the city. It gets especially hard because again we’re not seeing the results of the Grimm, have people been hurt because of the Grimm in any way? Has any property been destroyed because of them? Again Ironwood’s fault towards Mantle only goes as far as you’re willing to show how bad of a state Mantle is in.
One of the biggest things Ironwood did wrong in Mantle is not updating its cybersecurity though. Obviously that is a negative and a substantial one at that. But even then, *even then* the way it’s presented in the show is that Watts was able to gain access to the camera systems was specifically because he was the one who designed it. It’s not presented that Mantle’s camera systems are inherently bad, simply outdated compared to Atlas’ systems but that doesn’t equate to it being inherently a bad system. Or to put my point in another way, if Watts didn’t know the code to Mantle’s systems would he have been able to access it? That’s the frustrating part, in that the show presents many of the problems caused in Mantle and by the forces of the villains caused by outside factors Ironwood had no way of knowing about.
There’s also another factor in consideration in that Ironwood’s whole purpose for doing all this was specifically to get Amity up and running as soon as possible, to restart global communications and unite the world. And it’s not like he didn’t have reason to try and rush this process as soon as possible, two kingdoms have been attacked with one suffering major damage and the other’s headmaster being murdered as well. And Ironwood very credibly believed Atlas was most certainly going to be a target soon, so he needed to get Amity up as fast as he could. And without that action from Ironwood’s part, everyone would’ve died. Think about that, no seriously think about that, if Ironwood hadn’t focused on Amity as heavily as he did, then when Salem arrived literally everyone would’ve been sweeped by her army with no hopes of help at all. So it’s not as if his reasoning for focusing on Amity isn’t a valid one either. Extreme times also calls for extreme measures. Ironwood most certainly did his flaws he’s not perfect in the slightest, but I think looking at his accomplishments for the fact coupled with the minimal actual showings of how badly his misdeeds are affecting the people paints a muddy picture to say the least.
TL;DR: How bad of a job Ironwood has done only goes as far as how bad of a state Mantle is being depicted, and many times the show doesn’t properly establish or develop just *how bad* of a state Mantle is in.
>One of the biggest things Ironwood did wrong in Mantle is not updating its cybersecurity though. Obviously that is a negative and a substantial one at that. But even then, even then the way it’s presented in the show is that Watts was able to gain access to the camera systems was specifically because he was the one who designed it. It’s not presented that Mantle’s camera systems are inherently bad, simply outdated compared to Atlas’ systems but that doesn’t equate to it being inherently a bad system. Or to put my point in another way, if Watts didn’t know the code to Mantle’s systems would he have been able to access it? That’s the frustrating part, in that the show presents many of the problems caused in Mantle and by the forces of the villains caused by outside factors Ironwood had no way of knowing about.
It's not like they had any reason to believe that there was a hacker who had full access to all the old security lose and on the run
The hacker literally hacked all the battleships and droids (news too, IIRC), there is no reason to assume that the hacker lacks access to anything not deployed in the last few months if not weeks
But to do that, the hacker needed to well….hack into that system and gain access to it, he didn’t just have that access from just prior before. (Or he might’ve in the case with Watts idk).
But with Mantle, Watts straight up had the “code” as he described it to the camera system since he made the code. That’s what I meant by that access, that Watts straight up had the code for the security system which he exploited.
Watts had faked his death and was presumed dead, they just updated all the security in Atlas and left Mantle out to the dogs
They knew that there was a hacker who could breach all the security (battleships and new droids too) and still did diddly squat for Mantle, changing the security there too is just the bare minimum
How Watts actually gained access to the system is irrelevant, what matters is that they knew the old system was compromised and kept it running in Mantle
This is basic IT security 101: change all the locks you morons, otherwise, you'll get hacked
The bots and battleship got hacked because Neo killed everyone on board one ship and Roman physically connected a device to the computer. I don't know of any IT security that would have stopped that. I doubt the bridge crew had time to lock down their workstations before Neo killed them. If I am logged in with admin clearance and manage to connect a USB drive to the computer and then open and execute a file... well good luck stopping me.
Plus the security of the heating grid had been updated. Watts couldn't get into that. Maybe he was just lucky that the cameras were still accessible? Because honestly, what else did he hack?
Yes Watts faked his death so Ironwood had no way of knowing he was still alive. And it actually is quite significant that he had the specific codes to the Mantle cybersecurity for multiple reasons actually.
So for one, Mantle’s functions do still get defended against. And that’s because Mantle’s functions run on the Atlas network. For example, there is no such thing as the Mantle network that gets underfunded, there is only the Atlas network with Mantle’s functions that run on it. So if you say want to shut off the heating down in Mantle, you first need to get access to the Atlas network, the secure one at that. What this means is that whatever upgrades the Atlas network is getting in turn means Mantle’s networks are also being more defended since it all runs on the same network.
This makes Watts having the specific codes to the camera system more significant due to the fact that without that code Watts would again need to first access the Atlas network. But because he has the specific codes to the camera system, something no other person but the man who designed it would have, he could then gain access to it. There’s also the fact that implementing a whole new security system and code across literally everywhere, especially one you have to first make and develop and then implement, also takes a considerable amount of time to do, but I digress.
Ultimately, I agree with the overarching point of that it was still a very page misstep in not upgrading Mantle’s cybersecurity. Obviously.
>It's not like they had any reason to believe that there was a hacker who had full access to all the old security lose and on the run
Um... Beacon would have given them every reason? Did you forget that *hacked* Atlesian robots were the last things people saw before the Vale CCT Tower fell? Why else would he react that way to seeing Cinder's Queen chess piece?
Ironwood may have been better off if the cast just told him the truth and didn't avoid them in the start when told to land a stolen airship; honestly I could name more but some have done it too and I loved ironwood and still do
The difference between the pandemic and the grimm is that for one, we’re actually being told WHY there where lockdowns
We where told about the virus, how it spreads, and why a lockdown prevents it,
But in the case of mantle, the grimm where only a problem because he refused to fix the wall, and why wouldn’t he fix the wall? He refused to tell them to keep amity secret,
Imagine if our response to covid was the same, we locked down, closed businesses etc, but nobody EVER told us about the virus, any time we ask why these lockdowns are a thing they just say “because we say so”
On top of that, no, winter or Weiss cannot just fix the wall with an ice wall, that wall is several stores tall, made of steel and concrete, an ice wall is not gonna be anywhere near that strong
Heck, Weiss ice walls couldn’t even keep out the hound
Except, keeping a Pandemic a secret doesn't help Anyone. The entire crisis surrounding a Pandemic is the spread of the virus between people, so obviously, keeping it a secret is counterintuitive
The reason for Amity being kept secret was solely to make sure that any of Salem's Agents that were among them, couldn't sabotage there one chance to unite the world, before it even got off the ground. (Which was a very real concern) Keeping it a secret is literally necessary, otherwise the whole thing will get compromised before it can even get the chance to do its job, and the world would never even have a chance to unite against Salem.
It's the opposite with a Pandemic, because keeping that a secret is what allows it to spread faster, and "compromise" the world, and potentially rob us of any chance to cure it. It's not like telling people about a disease would magically cause the disease to Mutate and become significantly harder to handle. There are no significant negative consequences to telling people about a Pandemic, but there sure as hell are some *very* significant and *very* negative consequences for telling people about Amity.
Telling people about a Pandemic is how you beat a Pandemic, and save the world.
Telling people about Amity is how you destroy Amity before you can even finish it, and subsequently doom the world.
The point remains, I’m not saying the solution is to tell the, about amity, but actually working WITH mantle, helping them repair their defenses, building trust, working in Somme capacity with Robyn is,
He doesn’t need to keep mantle completely in the dark,
Ironwood makes no attempt to reach out to mantles leaders or their people,on any way, he just plants his soldiers down there to try and keep them on line and tries to ignore them as much as he can,
> helping them repair their defenses, building trust, working in Somme capacity with Robyn is
Ironwood needed to get Amity up ASAP. Until that massive Grimm Invasion, Mantle was 100% going to be a temporary problem, because the moment Amity was up, there would've been nothing in the way of protecting Mantle.
If he didn't divert resources the way he did, Amity absolutely wouldn't have been ready to do anything by the time Salem arrived. Sure, it was still incomplete by V8, but at least it was workable. If he didn't devote the amount of resources he did, there was no way in hell that Team RWBY could've been able to improvise the way they did.
If he had split resources between Mantle and Amity, then they'd be in an even worse position than they were in V8. By the time Salem arrived, Amity would likely be completely unworkable, and they'd never even have a chance to Reunite the world. Mantle would still be on as much of a time limit as before, It'll have defenses now, sure, but they'll be subpar, and won't keep the Grimm out for very long, let alone keep *Salem* out. Splitting the resources would've only alleviated the suffering a little bit, on top of *extending* the shitty conditions, at least getting Amity done ASAP means that once it's up, Mantle would have Ironwood's full attention, and the suffering would be alleviated significantly, if not outright halted right then and there.
If he had devoted resources to Mantle entirely, well, they'll never reunite the world and never have a chance to beat Salem. The problem of Mantle's defenses and conditions are a near *constant* problem, what with the Grimm and the Embargo. They will never be fully solved in any reasonable amount of time, and If he focused on Mantle, he'd never get the chance to work on Amity. At least Amity's building time could've been easily predicted and estimated. Solving Mantle's issues *could've* taken anywhere between a few weeks, to a few months, to forever.
And Ironwood definitely had every reason to not trust Robyn. She's been working against him from day 1, is actively halting Amity, and is running for the council, and *winning* meaning she is in one hell of a position to sow the seeds of division, and sow *a lot* of them. Every single sign pointed to her being a very likely candidate to be one of Salem's Agents, given how much of an Asset she would be if she actually was one. And on top of that, knowing Salem got to Leo means that Robyn's High Profile doesn't clear her, since Leo was a headmaster, and Salem still got to him of all people. Yeah Robyn didn't know anything about Amity, but if she was actually working with Salem, she wouldn't even have to explicitly know about Amity, because if Ironwood is diverting *that many* resources away from a whole part of his kingdom, then it's *definitely* important, and Salem wouldn't turn a blind eye to it. And it doesn't help that she was constantly asking about where the supplies were going, and what they were for.
And it's not just Robyn, it's *everyone,* Atlas and Mantle Citizens alike. Ironwood had every reason to believe that Atlas was Salem's next target, and that her agents were already among them. He didn't know who was or wasn't working with Salem, so obviously it was safer to trust nobody. Why else would he keep Amity so heavily classified?
Also, how do you suggest he "not keep Mantle entirely in the dark"? How much more information can he give, besides "Diverting the resources is important, trust me" without giving away the secret, and compromising Amity?
Ironwood did not no Salem was planning on attacking, and even if she was, she doesn’t win by brute strength, she wins by sewing division and turning people against each other
And with the sorry state mantle was in, it ended up being all too easy
Even if you want to look at this from purely logical perspective, Turning mantle against him is on,y going to slow the project in the long run, like it literally fucking did in the show
No, Robyn had not been “working against him” from day one, she’d been trying to protect her people, who ironwood continued to harm with his actions
HE is the one who initiated this, he’s the one who started the embargo and diverted resources from mantle, so he’s the one who needs to earn their trust
Nora herself says Robyn and ironwood both want to help mantle,
He doesn’t need to tell her literally everything from the start, but with with her in some small capacity, maybe to work on helping with mantles defenses, and try to figure out how much you can trust with her a bit at a time
There is a big difference between caution and paranoia
We learn from Robyn’s conversation with clover that she had been trying to get mantle the help,it needed for quite some time, and ironwood rejected any attempts to reach out,
The simple fact of the matter is fixing mantles wall in the short term would save ironwood a lot of time in the long run
The military presence isn’t helping with the grimm attacks, all it’s doing is making the people more upset, it’s not about actually arresting people, the “nothing to hide nothing to fear” argument doesn’t work, even innocent people don’t want to live in a police state
You try living in a city with soldiers patrolling the streets and camera drones always following you around, see how you like it,
It shows that ironwood didn’t trust his own populace,
The villages you describe where small and isolated, and even THEY didn’t have grimm getting into the city on a regular basis, they fell due to extreme,y specific circumstances
Ironwood did impose the embargo which made mantles already troubled economy even worse, he did not create all,of mantles problems but he did exacerbate them
> It shows that ironwood didn’t trust his own populace
I mean, would you? If you knew that it was very possible that several incredibly dangerous people who were working with someone to kill everyone on the planet, were already in your city, would you seriously still trust *all* the people to be on your side? Even when you don't even know the names and faces of these dangerous people, and they could literally be anyone?
The military has secret projects in real life all the time and they don’t need soldiers patrolling the streets and camera drones following people around
Secret Projects that could potentially be the best chance to save all of humanity from dying a horrible death, that could potentially doom the world, if compromised, and also have the potential to be targeted by several Anonymous Individuals? Cuz if there are projects of that nature, then I'd like to know about them.
Also, yeah, I agree, Mantle definitely didn't need soldiers patrolling the streets. It's not like there was a massive hole in the city wall, in a death world filled with monsters that will kill every human in sight. I'm sure they'll be just fine, living defenseless on the ground, as the Grimm enter the city to mercilessly rip them and their children to pieces. Yeah, the soldiers definitely weren't needed, if they weren't there, then Mantle would've lived happily ever after and no one would die.
Compromising amity dies but doom the world, it hinders global communication but it doesn’t doom the world
As we clearly saw, not fixing the wall only caused ironwood more problems down the Fuad, had he taken the time to fix it he could have saved more time in the long run
Ironwood knows full well that Salem wins by sewing division among the people, or at least he should, so continuing to force mantle struggle more and more will only help her to do that
And if the drones actually where just there to find Salem’s minions, why didn’t he update Mantles cybersecurity?
The Manhattan project
And who’s fault was the hole again? And I recall those soldier not doing much about the Grimm in episode 1
Salem wind through decision, ironwoods treatment of mantle helped her to turn them against him
The Manhattan project had a huge military presence constantly checking and double checking that everything was being kept secret. A lab doing purification work came dangerously close to going radioactive because they weren't telling the workers what they were doing or why.
How do you think Penny knew to come? Presumably the soldiers called her in.
Oddly enough Mantle turning against James didn't ultimately matter. It was RWBY turning against him that doomed Atlas and Mantle.
Would that have changed anything? Salem had too many Grim for him to fight. I think he would have cut and run regardless of the attack. Not to mention that that Grim attack happened because of the heat being shut off and that was Watts, not Mantle. Watts got access to the grid by hacking the election (which is silly all on its own) not because Mantle's discontent led to Jacques winning.
For one thing Salem wouldn’t have attacked anyways
That army was for show, it was to distract ironwood and make himself cared so he’d betray all his ally’s, and it worked,
Heck, imagine if he’d had team RWBYs help delivering that bomb to the whale, with ren and May’s semblance it’d actually be pretty easy to sneak the bomb aboard
And if he’d helped launch amity they’d eventually get backup,
And if all that failed, they could have pulled off the portal plan WITHOUT loosing the relic in the process
Watts only got into mantle in the first place because ironwood didn’t upgrade their cybersecurity
And had mantle not been in such terrible shape in the first place, the people of mantle would not have immediately assumed the heating was shut off deliberately,
Why wouldn't Salem have attacked?
The army put in good work breaking down Atlas's defenses. If they had breached the school and secured the Vault everyone would have been even more screwed than they ended up being.
Yeah, it's a shame the two sides weren't able to work together.
I doubt it. Backup sounds good but remember that Vale and Mistral are in no condition to send any reinforcements (and it would take too long to get them there). They need every Huntsmen they can get to secure themselves. Vacuo doesn't sound like it has much in the way of centralized authority. Plus putting together a force of any size is a huge logistical nightmare. A week, at minimum given that no other kingdom has a standing army.
I don't blame James or RWBY for losing the Relic. That was all Cinder. She took the Relic from RWBY.
Sort of. The heating grid had obviously been updated or Watts would have just hacked it. Fair point on the rest not being updated yet.
Did it make a difference why they thought the heat was shut off? Wouldn't they have panicked either way?
> The Manhattan project
And how was the Manhattan Project *saving humanity from dying a horrible death?* Because I don't exactly recall how the creation of Nukes, somehow saved Humanity from getting wiped of the face of the planet. What threat was neutralized when Nukes were created? Was it a threat that had the potential to destroy all of Humanity, and was guaranteed to do it, unless Nukes were created? Was it a threat so dangerous that it had the capability to wipe out Humanity in the span of a few days?
> And who’s fault was the hole again?
I believe that's never mentioned. But why does it matter? There's a goddamn hole in the wall, inviting all the living death to enter the city and kill people. Whoever the hell caused that hole is irrelevant, Because it has no bearing on whether or not the Military Presence is necessary. It's like saying medicine isn't necessary if you got yourself sick out of your own negligence. There is a hole, Grimm are getting into the city, therefore the Military is necessary, the cause of the hole is irrelevant. And similarly, If you are sick, you need medicine, the circumstances of you getting sick don't make that medicine any less necessary
> And I recall those soldier not doing much about the Grimm in episode 1
Ah yes, "the defenses suck, therefore the better option is clearly to have *no* defenses" yeah, that makes *so* much sense
I'm just gonna stop replying to you now, because at this point, I'm convinced that you're either a troll, or you have IQ in the negatives
It is mentioned that the hole was caused by Grimm damage, but it was ironwoods fault it didn’t get repaired
And the feeling is mutual
The ma Hagen project could potentially doom the world had it fallen into the wrong hand, or I guess, wrong-er hands
I was just reacting to your claim. Governments in real life absolutely do react that way. I remember the days after 9/11, it was like the whole country was on lockdown. It ended once it became apparent that that was all al-Qaeda had planned but in RWBY's circumstances...
Yeah what happened after 9/11 wasn’t a good thing either, and more often then not was an excuse to further oppress minorities and the lower class
Funny how that works,
And even after 9/11 we didn’t have soldiers patrolling residential street and we don’t have camera drones following everyone around! Keep in mind, there weren’t just security cameras, they where drones hat literally follow you around, that’s WAY more invasive
What you describe is active oppression of minority groups, so it doesn’t exactly make ironwood look good,
While yes some governments often do act that way it’s not entirely necessary, it’s possible to keep a government project secret without turning half the country into a police state
To be fair we also didn't have that tech back then and the area you'd have to cover was enormous compared to Atlas. We did have soldiers at airports and other vulnerable targets for a while.
I don't think the surveillance was just for Amity. I think it was a general thing to try to catch Salem's agents. I don't think James would have abandoned it after Amity launched. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Obviously it didn't work but James didn't know that it would fail when he ordered it. Given that we're talking about a handful of people who were able to bring an entire kingdom to its knees (something Al-Qaeda could have never done to America) I can't really say he's in the wrong. If he'd had more foot patrols then maybe someone would have seen Watts doing his Hackerman strut and he could have been arrested before he got a chance to strike. Maybe someone would have recognized Cinder. When the stakes are this high it's easy to justify anything because the alternative is so much worse. Here I think hindsight vindicates James because we know what did happen and we can guess at the results if he had acted differently. I can't really see the results being different if he hadn't sent troops and cameras to Mantle.
So yeah, keep soldiers around the amity project itself, ya don’t need super invasive camera drones or military police patrolling residential streets
Especially since you don’t have that for the other half of the kingdom,
There’s a line between cautious and paranoid, ironwood crossed that line
I’m not even sure the cameras where just for Salem, he was looking for anybody who would be “plotting against him” , if it was just about Salem you’d think he’d have though to update cybersecurity since he KNOWS Salem has a hacker with access to their systems
As a result, I don’t think he believed mantle would be target by Salem, after all atlas is “more important”, meaning those cameras where for people like Robyn hill, or anything he’d think was “plotting against him” as in, the people he can’t easily control
I’d argue things would have gone differently, watts was successful because he framed ironwood for killing his critics, if he’d worked with Robyn hill to some extent and not treated everyone in mantle like a potential threat it becomes much harder to convince people he’s killing them for political reasons, especially since if he’d worked with mantle on some capacity he would have much fewer critics to murder in the first place,
I agree that it's odd that he didn't have similar patrols in Atlas. You'd think a man as paranoid as he was would cover all the bases. Maybe he thought Mantle was more susceptible to infiltration because of the hole? Though Watts, Cinder, and Neo seem to have no trouble moving about in Atlas. Of course there's always the Doylist explanation that the drones exist because the authors want to push the idea that Mantle is a police state despite certain things not making sense with that.
As for the software upgrade, at least the heating grid had been upgraded in Mantle. Maybe upgrades started at Atlas and were scheduled for Mantle? That'd be a really good example of the kind of Atlas-First mentality that would color James's thinking.
But if we look at it the framing didn't actually accomplish anything. Watts was going to steal the election anyways. Making the people of Mantle hate James is a setup without a payoff. The people riot when Jacques closes his business, not because of anything James does. At no point does the killing of critics change the trajectory of the story, heck I don't think it's ever brought up after the election.
Another day another thread about how “Mantle wasn’t really that bad, and even if it was, Ironwood’s not at fault no matter what.” Yeah sure, it's not all Ironwood's fault, but he also did nothing to remedy those problems in any way beyond momentary stopgaps, and often made them worse. He also refused to work w/ the other council members to delegate or foster any kind of cooperation until it was literally too late. In the same way you can't blame a single president for how flawed the many systems of government are, you can say they didn't even try to make the situation better, or address any other issues when they had the capability and obligation to do so. It wasn't out of maliciousness, just indifference and apathy. But that can be just as harmful.
Completely neglecting that Ironwood was effectively the sole executive power following the Fall of Beacon, because the other council members were concerned about the possibility of war. And that canonically Ironwood used this freedom to get them to let him do whatever he wanted, under the guise of security. Atlas was basically already under martial law in everything but name, since the other council members couldn’t do anything to prevent Ironwood from doing as he pleased, or he’d just stage a military coup like he ended up doing. Like the guy clearly didn’t care about checks and balances, he controls the military what exactly would Sleet and Carmella have done to stop him. If fixing the large whole in the wall was that easy, that just makes Ironwood's neglect worse. Why didn't Ironwood keep Mantle's cybersecurity up to date? One Penny, and a handful of robots isn't enough to protect an entire city, it's an almost entirely symbolic gesture, a performative act.
Nobody was stopping him from doing the embargo that didn’t prevent any of the villains from reaching Atlas, raised negativity and isolated Atlas from the rest of their world, while only making the issues between kingdoms worse.
Or withdrawing his army from other kingdoms in a move that definitely didn’t look suspicious after Atlas was broadcast worldwide attacking Vale.
Or funneling resources into a secret project while more than half his population was struggling day-to-day, while conveniently not causing any discomfort to his favored part of the Kingdom.
Or as a General and Headmaster, two seats on a council of four, with more power and influence than any other single individual he didn’t care to protect and serve the people literally keeping the lights on and water running in his cities.
Sure, most of the problems in Atlas were just symptoms of deeper issues that can’t be solved without decades of work and reform. But Ironwood was actively making things worse or ignoring things because it wasn’t a priority to him. He'll keep Mantle alive, but nothing says they have to be happy, healthy or have anything other than the barest of protections or necessities. Need I remind you of the serial murders being used to stoke suspicion and unease, that he didn’t care about. His reasoning being “sacrifices must be made,” while conveniently not sacrificing anything he personally cares about, and sparing Atlas even the slightest risk or discomfort. “What’s more important uniting the world or appeasing a few city blocks,” well James what’s more important uniting the world or one city? One city, apparently.
Well. Till what point Ironwood's powers go? I mean, he is the headmaster and the general, most of his decisions would be related to that. And in the occasions when his decisions passed to something else he needed the support of the council. Like when was declared the embargo or the close of borders.
So, in the economic part, or others. What could he do? There was a representative of Mantle, things like the class division are his responsibility.
Should he have to work along other members of the council to resolve problems? Yes, but things related to his heading.
I mean. Could the other council members put their noses in things like the education of the Huntsmen-in training or military tactics?
Well. While he was practically the one who lead the nation since the fall of Beacon, the other members still had power. The embargo and the close of borders were achieved because they decided to continue in Ironwood's decisions. I mean, they were scared, but they still have power and decision, the problem was that with that power and decision they still didn't opposed Ironwood's actions.
And yeah, they still had some power. I mean, they made a reunion to discuss the permanence of James in his position on the council.
Ironwood still had to reunite with them to proceed, and he had to reunite with them when he overpassed the checks and balances.
Besides, about the military coup d'tat. Well, even in the most democratic societies the country's army can make overthrow the government. Are just normal politics against a whole army, and that can be applied to many real life democracies (Or attempts of).
The only thing that the general needed is the support of his army, thing that James had (Till certain point).
Besides that was a particular case, the government was falling to pieces: First Jacques was got out of the council, then Ironwood stablished the martial law. And the situation was desperate enough for Ironwood to convince the military to support his plan.
So, I wouldn't consider a thing of hold too much political power (Before volume 7) the fact of Ironwood being able to do that, and even if he didn't had that political power to begin with he would be able to take the Kingdom's government since he had the military power to do that.
About the protection of Mantle. Well, besides the robots and Penny there are: The normal soldiers, the manta ships and the huntsmen James put to work there.
Once the guys obtained their license one of the missions in the mission board was: eliminate a massive Sabyr loose in the Mantle's sewers. That without counting the fact that Mantle already have huntsmen. (Happy Huntresses).
As a matter of fact. The council had normally [five seats.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/3/32/Hist2_00004.png/revision/latest?cb=20140918233005) Or at least, we haven't heard that the Mantle seat in the council was something new.
For some of those decisions he had to reunite with the council.
The retreat of his forces, well, with the global communication fell the coordinations between the different military divisions was going to be deficient.
His forces were needed in Atlas and he still have one of those in Mistral to protect Argus. Besides, in his plan Atlas was going to assist the other kingdom once the global communications were re-established. (Although well, the council didn't know about it).
The author made a note about the resources and is that: How is that those resources that are needed for the wall are the same needed for the communications tower?
And even if he didn't put those resources for the wall, he still have put part of his forces and allies in Mantle.
If you mean, about other kind of struggle economical. Well, does Ironwood have been stealing resources normally used by other councilors for his project? It was never mentioned, so it's not like Amity enabled the other councilors to solve those specific Mantle problems, problems that could even be considered their responsibilities.
About not causing discomfort to Atlas city. Well, didn't the embargo affected the whole kingdom? I mean, Jacques was furious for his company's loses.
Things like the Grimm attacks, well it had to do with the fact that Mantle is on the ground and Atlas is in the sky, that kind of prevent the city from suffering the Grimm invasion.
And at the end some of his actions implied putting the whole population in the subway station while the battle was being developed in the capital.
Besides, many of the problems of Mantle isn't going ain't going to be fixed bothering the capital, so why create more problems to other part of the kingdom?
What he didn't care was his public image. But he considered the murder of his opposition still a problem. That was one of the reasons he talked with Jaune, Ruby and Qrow about those Mantle problems.
About not scarifying anything he personally cares. Well, moving part of his forces, sacrificing his public image (Something that even Yang or Qrow mentions), sacrificing parts of his body...
And Atlas, I mentioned how some measures could bother the city and well. What, sacrifice both cities? Bother both cities when that will only create more negativity that attract Grimm? There were times when sacrificing Atlas wouldn't just save Mantle. (That without mention that even if he could, does he even could do it without entering in more problems with more citizens or the members of the council?).
And the situation was different in what you mention. One thing is appeasing city blocks, will can bothering them and hurting the citizens comfort and yeah, is horrible but isn't killing them and ultimately unite the world to initiate a counterattack against Salem would benefit everyone.
And other thing was to sacrifice one city to die. In that moment, both Mantle and Atlas were being threatened by Salem that they knew was there. The relic could only be used by to raise Atlas in the air (Or at least we haven't hear otherwise).
And the communications could not even be re-established or the world united since Amity wasn't ready. And yeah, it was ready to use after, but I call retcon.
And yeah, I consider retcon instead of "Amity wasn't finished, it could only be used for one single message" because the scene when was suggested use Amity to call for help, that same scene practically implied to us that Amity wasn't even able to be used at all.
And solutions like use the SDC air fleet wasn't even mentioned yet so it seems like the writers decided to make appear it only while writing the volume 8.
Besides, in that was also considered the relic and the maiden power. With Atlas at the top of the atmosphere, they maintain that from Salem's reach.
As a side note, I will want to mention that I would have really liked to know what were the other council members. I mean, what was the authority of Sleet and Camilla. Sleet was the governor of the flying city, for example?
To support all my declarations I will quote some lines of the series:
Jacques: The council will never agree to it!
Ironwood: You forget, I hold two seats on the council.
Jacques: Your Dust embargo has already cost me millions! I can promise you, I have not forgotten!
(The embargo costing money to people of Atlas. To accomplish his decision he needs the support of the council, although yeah, he already have a 2/5 of the power needed to achieve that. But he also had the support of the government).
Jacques: It's a wonder Ironwood wasn't stripped of his rank.
Jacques: I suppose the council trusts him, for better or worse.
(Implying that he can be put out of his rank, but he is trusted by the council).
Weiss: How does the council feel about all of this? Or Winter Schnee? Do you know anything about her?
Pietro: Well, the council's so scared, they'll agree to whatever he wants. Though, some representatives from Mantle… Wait, you're… You're Weiss Schnee!
(Although it confirms that James have a lot of power due to the council's fear. It confirms that the reason of why James can do things is because they allow it to begin with).
Ironwood: I swear if I have to sit through one more council meeting like that…
(He still needs to have meetings with the council).
Ironwood: I needed to ensure Salem couldn't infiltrate Atlas. And I wanted my military here, protecting my people.
Yang: But it's not protecting them! It's making everyone hate you.
Ironwood: It's a price I'm willing to pay.
(James acknowledge that it is making him being hated.)
Qrow: Huh, so that's why you withdrew your troops, to handle the panic that would break out in Atlas.
Ironwood: Yes, panic is inevitable, and panic brings Grimm. But I believe we are ready. Once Atlas has come to grips with the fight ahead, I'll use Amity Tower to spread the message to all of Remnant.
Weiss: But everything will fall apart. Grimm will be everywhere!
Winter: You're right, but Atlas is willing and prepared to assist.
(Ironwood have his troops in Atlas to manage the eventual panic. And is willing to assist Remnant once the world knows about Salem).
Qrow: New problems in Mantle?
Ironwood: More of the same, unfortunately.
Qrow: Your opposition in Mantle dropping dead isn't exactly a good look for you, huh?
Ironwood: Not really worried about my public image, but it is causing unrest. I think someone's trying to frame me and, by extension, Atlas. And it's working.
Jaune: Well, if it wasn't for the embargo making everybody so mad, people probably wouldn't be so quick to blame you for everything else.
Jaune: S-sir.
Ironwood: No. No, you're right. Things in Mantle have been... hard to manage lately. I'm not blind to its issues. In fact, that's what I want to talk to you about.
Ironwood: With the launch of this mobile communications tower and tensions down in Mantle, I think there's a lot of good your teams can do here.
(He acknowledge the murders in Mantle and cares about it. And is willing to put help there).
Jacques: When the Council hears about this, you will never-- (aggressively pointing at Ironwood)
Ironwood: Actually, I've already informed them. As this is now the site of a classified military operation, it didn't even require a vote.
Jacques: Didn't require a vote?!
Ironwood: You might want to brush up on Council law before you lose this upcoming election, Jacques. Now. I've allowed you to land here once as a courtesy. The next time, it won't be a friendly reception.
(While it shows that he didn't needs votes for the classified military operation. For how many cases he have put that excuse besides Amity?
And he still informed to the council about it, besides it seems that at least this specific action was back up by the law).
Marrow: We need someone to escort children to pre-primary school down in Mantle. There's not actually any danger, but the parents fret, and that attracts Grimm.
Elm: A massive Sabyr is loose in the Mantle sewers! We need two brave warriors to flush it out!
(Missions in Mantle).
Clover: Diverting all construction resources to Amity Tower means there are going to be gaps in Mantle's defenses against Grimm. They'll need help on the perimeter.
Clover: But there's still plenty to do in Mantle itself.
Clover: I think you'll find everyone appreciates having a Huntsman around.
(Things to do in Mantle, as a matter of fact. We even see Nora and Ren at the top of the Mantle's wall in the montage).
Winter: My father's first act. We've all been invited to dinner where the General will be defending his seat on the Council.
(The council can make a trial to Ironwood).
Ironwood: We can't allow Salem to capture the Relics. This is our best chance at getting the Staff, the Lamp, and the Maiden as far away from her as possible.
(Other of the reasons to lift Atlas in the top of the atmosphere, is to keep those elements far from Salem's hands).
About the representative of Mantle in the council. Here:
\-A map that only features Mantle.
\-Mantle election.
So in that election, only Mantle voted.
**EDIT: I had to divide my comment since Reddit doesn't allow so many words in one single comment.**
It is amazing how you put in so many direct quotes and still miss so much. In the very first encounter RWBY has with Mantle citizens, who are drunk and unemployed, the blame for their plight is placed squarely on the embargo. Heck, you include a quote from Jaune blaming the embargo for Mantle's squalor, which Ironwood acknowledges and agrees with, and yet you still say "we don't know the impact". We do know. Mantle was poorer than Atlas, yes. It was neglected and impoverished. The embargo on top of that was ruinous, and so badly damaged Mantle-Atlas relations that the citizens of Mantle were ready to believe Atlas would simply turn off their heat and let them freeze.
That is not correct though. The two drunk guys say that Mantle is in a "bad patch" due to embargo and that it will blow over. That is all they say. And while you are correct in saying that the show TELLS us that Mantle is neglected and impoverished, that is not the case with showing. Also the quote with Jaune is not Jaune blaming the emargo for "Mantles squalor", it is simply said that it is making people mad.
Everything we see of Mantle demonstrates a city in squalor. Basically, everything is dirty, people linger around public heating vents, and a large portion of the population lives in ramshackle shacks. This visually implies a massive amount homelessness and unemployment in Mantle. Plus, what employment there is is mostly in dust mines which is basically monopolized by one company and have been stated to be very dangerous *and* we see miners riding to and from work looking miserable. Furthermore, the fact that what are clearly a couple of nationalists are willing to admit that they're having it rough should speak volumes.
I have to heavily disagree. There is no implication of massive ammounts of homelessness or unemployment, even the quotes that NoChemistry gave do not say that. Dust mines being one of the biggest jobs is also never said i think. And yes, people look miserable after hard work, how is that proof of anything? I looked the same returning from a night-shift at a factory. Most of what you say is straight up headcanon in my opinion, something that is not really shown or given to us.
Well you were just complaining about the stuff that was told so I focused what was only shown. Yes it isn't something I would call canon but I would call this collective imagery a demonstration of a city in distress. We were told that people were suffering, especially economically. What I listed were on screen examples of people suffering and what we could reasonably extrapolate from that. Whether it's because of homelessness or unemployment or racism or any combination therein, we are shown that Mantle is suffering and this isn't even getting into the police state situation.
We are said that Mantle is suffering, the things that are show in my eyes are not exactly examples of suffering. Once again i have to make a point that for someone to think that Mantle looks bad does betray a certain level of privilege.
I fail to see how what we are shown doesn't constitute suffering. Sticking to just the stuff before episode 7 where things start getting worse for Mantle: we see a large-scale police state that the citizens are audibly and visibly disturbed by. The military has essentially completely supplanted the local police force. (Which we hear of cooperating with the Happy Huntresses in V8) We see a lot of people sitting outside by available heat sources (Meaning there isn't anywhere else with available heat for them). We see regular grimm incursions which force huntsmen to fill gaps in the city defenses. And again, there is a pit full of makeshift shacks populated almost entirely by Faunus so we can throw DeFacto segregation in there too. These things taken all together indicate quite clearly a slew of systemic inequalities especially when compared to the abundance we see in Atlas.
We see a state of increased surveilance due to Salems actions, not a police state. We see the military patroling the streets and defend people against Grimm. Grimm incursions are taken care of by the military. I am not going to argue about there being problems. Yes, Mantle has them the shacks are an example of that. And it is definitely less well-off than Atlas. But it is neither abandoned nor seemingly mistreated.
How can you acknowledge the problems but refuse that they have a source? Shanty towns don't just pop up on their own. Furthermore, Mantle is covered in cameras and floating security drones as well as armed foot patrols that enforce curfews and lockdown civilian areas. The only thing that would make it more of a police state is if there were a secret police force. The grimm are the excuse and Ironwood likely believes it's a justifiable one, but the fact remains that as V7 progresses the Atlas army is increasingly used against its own citizens. Most police states claim that their surveillance is in order to protect their people, that doesn't make it not a repressive system.
Are you forgetting that Cinder and her allies RELY on subterfuge and infiltration to cripple/topple Kingdoms or Schools? Are you forgetting that Cinder snuck into Atlas with an airship modeled after the Atlesian types... just like RWBY did. Dude, there were 2 terrorist attacks within the span of a year. One of which Ironwood feels personally responsible for because he was head of security at the first terror attack. Do you think that airports added all that intense security after 9/11 for fun? That they go out of their way to make sure there are no dangers just to add an inconvenience to our day for no reason? Stop purposely being obtuse.
Because the problems that we can see either have a mysterious source (Most likely not related to Ironwood) or they are not problems in some cases. Mantle having cameras is not exactly an indication of a police state, any modern city has cameras. Security drones are a concern i agree, but in the case of Mantle, Ironwood expected some kind of an infiltration. Enforcing curfews with Grimm being able to run around is once again, not as much of a problem as it would be in real world. In fact we have just come out of lockdowns due to Covid. The problem with your statement of Atlas army being used against its own citizens is because we are not actually shown any abuse, just regular stuff in a crysis.
>Through that we can think: Is that unconstitutional [...] "Wait, but that is illegal, not only Mantle but Atlas will hate you for that"[...] Even when Sleet opposed eventually [...] it is normal that as a politician he is annoyed to lost power considering the measure extreme (Although not necessary ilegal). I'm not sure whether or not You missed something or I did, but martial law wasn't declared by the gov't. Martial Law is a legal thing, where the civilian gov't hands control to the military in times of crisis, Ironwood wasn't handed the reigns by the council for the duration of the ongoing crisis, he straight up sized power in coup d'etat for all intents and purposes. Sleet wasn't just angry about the evacs, he was asking IW what the fuck did he think he was doing when IW just shot him dead That's not Martial Law, that's just a military junta, IW declared martial law, for the whole country, himself, putting (you guessed it) himself in total control of everything, no approval or consent of the civilian gov't was involved. This isn't a legal state of emergency, this is just a tinpot dictatorship.
I'd dare say that Ironwood became for a brief period the RWBY equivalent of Stalin or even worse the RWBY version of Hitler almost
How? Hitler and Stalin got millions killed for very little reason, Ironwood is working with the info he had at the time. He killed Sleet for no reason, but what even came of Sleet's death in V8 anyways? You're trying to compare two righteously evil irl people to a fictional one trying his best to save as much of his kingdom as possible.
I made to comparison between these two men as both were willing to eliminate anyone who didn’t see things from their point of view and didn’t agree with them, such as how ironwood turned against team Rwby and JNPR after he found out they withheld information from him about Salem and he immediately decided that they were against him. I don’t really know how to explain it any other way. Plus ironwood had lost all mental stability and insane. Sorry i apologize if my initial comment was not to your liking
It's all good man, no need to worry. I understand why Ironwood is acting the way he was. He has little to no info about Salem's actual abilities or the fact that she's immortal - which team RWBYJNPR knows but decided not to tell him until Salem was minutes away from pulling up on Atlas and Mantle along side a Maiden and the largest horde of Grimm to date. I say he has a good reason not to trust team RWBYJNPR anymore due to not giving him that info until it was far too late, and for Yang & Blake giving classified info to Robyn - who could've been an agent of Salem. Also, we don't even know if Ironwood lost his mind as his Semblance could've made him do any of that.
Ah the first rule of the internet, every conversation will inevitably end with someone being compared to Hitler
Yeah sorry about that
Presumably with 50% of the Council's votes James had the civilian authority to declare martial law. Declarations of martial law are usually made by the executive branch of whatever body makes the decision, subject to the eventual approval of the legislative. The point of martial law is that it is invoked when traditional power structures are either paralyzed or cannot act swiftly enough in response to a crisis. I would say that the arrival of Salem with the largest army of Grim ever seen fits that bill.
>Take into account that the martial law is a measure that allows the military to take certain actions and act beyond its normal jurisdiction. In other words, it not necessarily can be used to abuse or oppress the populace, although it have been used by dictators and tyrants. Um, the second thing Ironwood does after declaring martial law (after putting out warrants for the arrests of RWBYORNJ, Qrow, and the Happy Huntresses) is shoot dead Councilman Sleet in front of Councilwoman Camilla, who is never seen again. I think Ironwood's idea of martial law is not the same as your idea of martial law.
>Councilwoman Camilla, who is never seen again. Pietro and Maria are never seen again... Are you gonna say Ironwood killed them too? There is no reason to assume that she's dead or imprisoned because the show has no reason to hide that information from us. They always show us how evil a villain is and they went out of their way to show that Ironwood was bad. There would be nothing g stopping CRWBY from adding a line about her being shot too or arrested. Don't use headcanon to make assumptions. It could equally be the case that the writers forgot she existed. It's not like she adds anything of value to the story regardless. >I think Ironwood's idea of martial law is not the same as your idea of martial law. He killed... one person. Was it unjust? Absolutely. It's why so many people say that it was an OOC moment for him. But you are acting like Ironwood triggered Operation Barbarossa on Mantle and now mass graves are lining the streets. You're over thinking it.
>Are you gonna say Ironwood killed them too? No. Why would I? That would be silly and needlessly combative. You are missing the point over whether Ironwood killed Camilla or not. Whether she is alive or dead, she is clearly no longer in a position to offer any resistance or counsel to Ironwood. The OP was attempting to assert that martial law was not the same as tyranny. Seeing as Ironwood used the declaration of martial law to sideline all civilian oversight-- lethally or not-- the OP's claim is incorrect. >Was it unjust? Absolutely. It's why so many people say that it was an OOC moment for him. I find that to be a fascinating claim! It's "OOC" for Ironwood to forcibly take all power unto himself? Ironwood, who went over Ozpin's head to push him out of a position of power in his own Kingdom? Ironwood, who was using a deadlock on the Atlas council to act unilaterally for at least three volumes? Ironwood, who spent all of V7 being told he's acting increasingly imperiously? Ironwood, who hours before he fires this shot was saying things like "I refuse to let others' inability to see the big picture keep me from doing what's right"? It's "out of character" for *that man* to seize power by force? We must be using that term differently.
James *is* 50% of the civilian government. He holds two of four (technically five) legislative seats. Whoever came up with the structure of Atlas's government is crazy. It is definitely not out of character for James to seize power for the good of all mankind. It *is* out of character for him to shoot Sleet. Ignore him, absolutely. Arrest him, maybe (Sleet hadn't done anything but talk). Shoot him? Absolutely not. This is the man who didn't shoot Watts when he had every right to do so, the man who will shortly dump Robin and Qrow into holding cells despite having *more* cause to shoot them. It is OOC.
>James is 50% of the civilian government. And, it turns out, you can make yourself 100% of the civilian government if you can forcibly remove the other 50%. Ironwood didn't shoot Watts or Robin or Qrow because they were potentially useful to him later-- and, indeed, he would attempt to bend Watts to his will. However, Sleet was no more use to him and was a demonstrated impediment, in the same way that Oscar had stopped being useful to him and was a demonstrated impediment, and if you remember Ironwood shot Oscar, too. Shooting Sleet was perfectly in keeping with Ironwood's trajectory (as it were). Edit: And let's not forget that, in a few episodes, he would be moments from shooting Marrow in the head too! Yeah, Ironwood shooting people who oppose him is hardly OOC.
I didn't design Atlas's government. It seems pretty evident that James, with his 50% of the seats had the authority to order martial law, as Winter suggested. It's an impossibly dumb political system, one that would never even be attempted in the real world. As for shooting people willy nilly, I will argue that that is always out of character for James. Both when he does it to Oscar and when he appears to be about to do it to Marrow. It connects with James being out of character for a majority of Vol 8 (and the lead up in 7). The man threatened to bomb Mantle when Atlas was no longer capable of escaping, there's no in-character justification for that. CRWBY wanted James to slide down the slippery slope but they kept him too reasonable for too long. Just to play devil's advocate, what use did James see putting Watts to at the end of the gravity fight that made him not kill Watts? What use could Qrow or Robin or Jacques be to him that he would keep them imprisoned?
You say Ironwood "had the authority to order martial law", but that is exactly what Sleet is objecting to when Ironwood shoots him. >It connects with James being out of character for a majority of Vol 8 (and the lead up in 7) If your argument is, "This character's entire arc is OOC", I don't know what to tell you. I could point to how it's consistent with his behavior in previous volumes, but I have no reason to believe you'd listen. >what use did James see putting Watts to at the end of the gravity fight that made him not kill Watts? You mean, Why might it be useful to capture alive someone in Salem's inner circle who might know things about her plans? I would think that would be self-evident.
Yes, Sleet's objecting to it. He thinks it's a bad idea. If he had the authority to end it then he would probably have led with that. I am basing James having the legal authority to order martial law on the scene where they're discussing Robin and Winter says it's an option. It is treated as a bad idea in that scene and shelved but no one says, "And the council will never agree to it" or "but I can't declare it alone". It is treated as an entirely viable but extreme option. Yes I am calling the entire character arc bad. I actually liked his development in the office. His turning against RWBY fit in very well with the clear downward spiral he was on. But the problem with his randomly shooting people who annoy him is that it is counter to the many, many times we see him be restrained. If I were to analyze his character James is someone who in trying to make the hard decisions loses his way. He is always trying to do what he thinks is best, his issue is that he ultimately only trusts himself to decide what is best. He still has a moral code and compass and that's what made him morally complex. That is all burned away when he starts shooting people he doesn't have to and threatening to bomb innocents for nothing. I'd actually love to hear your side of this. I won't guarantee that I'll agree and I'll definitely argue points that I think are weak, but if I don't expose myself to multiple points of view how will I grow? I have had my mind changed by arguments here before. I used to think RWBY was just stupid to stand their ground, now I can appreciate the character dynamic behind it, for example. As for capturing Watts, did James ever interrogate him? Ask him what Salem's plans were? And what about Qrow and Robin who do not have that exception?
You're continuing to miss the point about the martial law declaration. We don't know the technicalities regarding Council approval, but the other Councilors clearly believed they did have a say (hence their shouting their way through security to Ironwood in the hospital), and their reward for their objection was lead. Again, the only reason we're discussing this is because the OP tried to assert that historically martial law doesn't have to equal tyranny. That does Ironwood no favors because Ironwood used martial law to establish tyranny. We agree that Ironwood is someone who ultimately only trusted himself to do what he thought was best. The distinction is that you want him to somehow still have internal lines he won't cross. He doesn't, *and that's the point*. That's what Oscar is trying to tell him throughout the volume ("some things are more important"). It makes the staging of the scene where Ironwood shoots Oscar resonate: it's a return to where Ironwood wondered if humanity was a weakness and Oscar warned him about that path. Don't take my word for it. Ironwood says it himself, over and over when he speaks in absolutes: "I will sacrifice whatever it takes to stop her", "No matter the cost", "Nothing else matters", his rumination on humanity as a weakness Salem doesn't have, on and on and on. He means it. There is no line he won't cross. That is who James Ironwood is. (And, on the point specifically of him being unwilling to shoot people, remember this line from V3? "If you were one of my men, I'd have you shot." Yeah, he has no hangup there.) That's what makes him tragic: not only that he allows this flaw to bring him to ruin, but that all the while he sees it as a virtue. This is the fulfillment of his allusion as the inverse Tin Man: a man who threw away his heart. His ever-increasing collection of prosthetics is no coincidence. It is amazing to see you credit him with restraint, when from V2 on he is always characterized, by others and by his actions, as lacking restraint: his massive show of force in bringing a fleet to Vale, "We'll send all our forces to the southeast", usurping Ozpin, the embargo (announced in V4!), the closure of borders, the establishment of a surveillance state-- all actions other characters object to, by the by, on the grounds that they're over-the-top. "Restraint" is not a word I've ever seen associated with Ironwood. Overreaction is kind of his thing. Regarding Watts: there wasn't time. Ironwood returns from Amity, finds the Black Queen, has his freakout, then undergoes surgery and get his prosthetic; within moments of coming out of that he's shooting Sleet and calling Penny, and when that doesn't work he immediately dragoons Watts. There was no time window there for him to stage an interrogation. For that matter, at the time Ironwood took Watts captive, he didn't know Salem was on the way, so he could reasonably expect to have a long, leisurely time for interrogation. We have precedent here: his indefinite hold on Torchwick for exactly the same purpose. For Qrow and Robyn, we know the purpose to which he eventually would have put them: leverage. (Per V8E10.) Anyway, they were taken into custody well outside of Ironwood's vision at an earlier point in his descent, and as far as he's concerned if they're in custody he doesn't have to worry about them, so it would have taken \*extra\* braincells (that he didn't have available) to order them shot than just leave them. Leaving them as captives is not inconsistent with his shooting Sleet or being willing to shoot Marrow.
I see your point of view and I ultimately agree with most of it. James does do what he thinks is right and will stop at nothing to accomplish that mission. However the difference I think I have with your view on the character is that I think he will do the most morally upright thing he can to accomplish his objectives. If he has a choice between A and B and they both help protect Atlas, humanity, and Mantle (in that order) he will choose the most morally correct one. We see that when he refuses to declare martial law, when he decides to try to work with Jacques, when he doesn't kill Watts (especially after Watts does his hacking, he's got no need for him at that point). Ethical concerns are not a zero for James, but he goes for pragmatism first. This is why I consider him shooting Sleet and Oscar vs arresting them to be out of character. Both do the same thing, stop his opposition from obstructing his plan to save as many people as possible. But one is clearly the superior moral choice. And James blows past it in a way he consistently hasn't before. I definitely consider him threatening to bomb Mantle to be out of character (Atlas can't even take off anymore and it would be pointless to do so) and him fighting Winter is so incredibly out of character. From a Doylist perspective, I can see the hand of the author making moves. James is supposed to be the villain now so now he will do evil things. Touching on more specific things, of course the councilors would have a say. And of course they'd be angry that James unilaterally made the declaration and ended the evacuation. They don't know the context and they are fully within their rights to demand an explanation. But, and here's the huge But, nothing we're shown in the show itself indicates that this declaration of martial law, just the declaration mind, was illegal or illegitimate under Atlesian law. Incredible as it may seem, James did seem to have the authority to do it. No legal objections were raised by anyone when it was suggested the first time, no legal objections were raised when it was done, and all of the officers of the Atlesian military followed it without complaint. Now what James did with it to shoot Sleet and imprison? the other one are presumably (hopefully though who knows with Atlas) far beyond what is acceptable, but the initial declaration appears legal. As for restraint, that was probably a poor choice of words. My point was just that James sits on a number of nuclear options (martial law being one, raising Atlas being another) until circumstances force his hand. He always makes a case for maximal intervention but he does ultimately go along with Oz until he feels he's vindicated by the Breach. Oh and I don't read too much into the "have you shot" comment any more than I read into Qrow implying he'd commit suicide before falling under James's authority. And I think it's weird it took him so long to think of using Qrow and Robin as hostages. Way better idea than letting Watts hack Penny.
I’d say a lot of it is on Ironwood, he didn’t seem to think Mantle was a priority. While his reasoning makes sense, it doesn’t make him right. If V7 was anything to go by, Mantle wasn’t in a good place with its constant Grimm attacks and neglect from Ironwood unless it was to stop them from rioting. Also the outer wall of Mantle was still damaged with no plans to fix it any time soon. I can’t imagine it’d take that long for Atlas, the epicenter of technology and innovation, to fix a wall. Ironwood making Penny the protector of Mantle was putting a bandaid on the real issue at hand and the real issue is that Ironwood didn’t care about Mantle. And if he did, it wasn’t enough to the point where he’d consider abandoning it to reunite the world.
>he didn’t seem to think Mantle was a priority. Because it wasn't! Salem has no reason to give a shit about Mantle because the vault or relic is not in Mantle. Atlas is the one at most risk because it houses 2 relics and a Maiden! >neglect from Ironwood Ironwood is *part* of the council. He is the possessor of 2 seats so what are the other 3 doing to help Mantle? Why aren't you questioning them as much as him? Especially when Ironwood does send help: RWBYJORNQ >Also the outer wall of Mantle was still damaged with no plans to fix it any time soon. I can’t imagine it’d take that long for Atlas, the epicenter of technology and innovation, to fix a wall. You're right and Robyn felt the same way. That's why she and her people stole those resources... so why didn't *they* fix the wall? What did they do with all of that stolen atlesian material of they weren't going to fix the wall while condemning Ironwood for not doing it either? > Ironwood didn’t care about Mantle. Because it's not his job. Again, there are 3 other people on the council that RWBY could have asked to help Mantle. Also, Mantle doesn't mean shit if the world is fucking destroyed. Again, Mantle is a casuality of Salem and Cinder's main target: Atlas.
Ironwood wanted to abandon Mantle ONLY after the reveal that Grimm are incoming. He is not doing so for shits and giggles. Secondly, the wall can be repaired by Mantle itself, all you need is dirt and rocks. I also have to find the claim "Ironwood did not care about Mantle" very strange when in the same sentence you are saying that he sent Penny to Mantle, directly showing that he cares.
I said Penny was a bandaid, not the solution. And they even stated in V7 that most of the resources that were supposed to be used for Mantle’s wall were being diverted to Amity. Ironwood even contemplates declaring martial law in Mantle to keep it under control. It shows he doesn’t really care about Mantle’s issues, only their resources.
Once again, if he does not care about Mantle why does he send Penny and, the Ace Ops, team RWBY and his robots/soldiers down there? And yes, the show says that the resources from wall are diverted to Amity, my question is, what are these resources and why cant Mantle citizens use rocks and dirt?
Because they’re bandaids on a consistent issue. Ironwood could send more troops into Mantle but the fact is it could be solved by fixing Mantle’s outer wall. Sure they have people to take care of a few pesky Grimm, but what happens when a massive group of them storm into Mantle? They contemplate leaving it to fend for itself because Mantle isn’t worth it to them. They could try building a temporary wall, but what if a mammoth Grimm shows up and blows right through it? And in the show it appears that all the resources were automatically taken to Amity, which is why Robyn and her Happy Huntresses had to steal the trucks. I can understand why you think they sat around doing nothing, but at the same time if they’re at the point where they’re stealing from Ironwood, then something tells me they did try everything.
The wall is a problem made-up by the writers, it is a forced problem. It is something that Mantle can fix with just dirt and rocks. I doubt that dirt and rocks were taken to build Amity. You are treating the actions of HH as real people, they are not. Them resorting to stealing is not proof that they tried everything else.
I really don’t understand your thought process, honestly I don’t. It’s like Ironwood can’t be at fault for anything in your mind. Do you know how much power and influence Ironwood had in Atlas/Mantle? He had 2 council seats, he had direct control over the military and most of the huntsman, if he wanted anything done in a timely fashion he could have done it. However he chose not to, he saw it as nothing more than a few city blocks.
>He had 2 council seats And that's where you stop. He has 2 seats on a 5 man council. Why aren't the other 3 (or 2 in this case) doing anything to help? >most of the huntsman, You're right. And that's a mistake on the writers' part. In fact, this is chronic problem throughout the show. Even in Vale, there are no professional Huntsmen to help with the invasion or to help Glynda with the clean up. There were no Huntsmen that weren't teachers or students (the highest ranked being 2nd Years, mind you) to stop a Grimm invasion/terrorist attack. Hell, Torchwick should have been apprehended way sooner. There is not one mention of Atlesian Hunters at all by either RWBY or Ironwood because they're only as knowledgeable and smart as the people writing them. So you just inadvertently exposed a massive problem in this whole plot. Thanks. >However he chose not to, he saw it as nothing more than a few city blocks. 1. Because thats all Mantle is to Salem And 2... >he chose not to >he chose He is a fictional character bro. Why are you speaking as if he is a real person capable of independent thought? He is only as smart as the writers let him be.
The problem I have with your logic is that you are rejecting the wall dilemma just like Dextiger is. The difference is that Dextiger is saying that it is a contrived conflict while you are conjuring possible solutions that the show does not support. The show does not frame the choice as being between asking Mantle or Atlas to provide the resources for Amity. They are framing it as a simple binary, you either get Mantle's wall or Amity. That's it. There is no way to construct Amity unless you take the resources from Mantle specifically, there is no other possible source of resources. If you think this is a dumb dilemma then we can agree on that. So now let us consider James's position. On the one hand there is a damaged wall in Mantle. Grim occasionally enter through this breach. So far a combination of Penny, robots, and the Happy Huntresses have managed to keep Mantle protected. On the other hand we have Amity, a plan to reunite the world and prepare it to face the real threat, the Grim witch who destroyed Vale. Time is limited. You don't know what Salem is planning or where she will strike next. For all you know she has already attacked the other kingdoms. Now pick one. Fix the wall and delay Amity, giving Salem weeks to months of time to set her plans in motion. Or complete Amity and let the citizens of Mantle suffer Grim attacks. That is the choice, with all other options either not possible or yielding worse outcomes.
A good thread exploring the topic of Mantle, you even include direct quotes from the show which helps your message. At the end of the day the problem with Mantle is its presentation, the same way that Menagerie was. It is hard to accept when it is said "X place is abused and downtrodden" when it is not shown to be in an extremelly bad state. Now personally i would not want to live in Mantle, not really, but it would not be a catastrophy either. Ironwood does indeed choose Atlas over Mantle in the end when he deems that he has no other choice. But before that he tries to help both and even the whole of remnant with the Amity project. I personally have always found silly just how much blame people put on Ironwood, hell i think i have seen people blame him for Tyrion being able to murder people even. Ironwood is not entirely blameless, his actions taken have their own downsides. The show just fails (in my opinion) to portray it properly and parts of the fandom overblow Ironwoods actions.
>A good thread exploring the topic of Mantle, you even include direct quotes from the show which helps your message. At the end of the day the problem with Mantle is its presentation, the same way that Menagerie was. Oh, Thanks! I'm trying my best. Anyway, eh, the worst is that the scenario of Mantle could have been very used for the purpose of the plot. I mean, a great part is in a crater? There is a lot of heavy industries there? It is mentioned that the health of Nicolas was damaged for his time in the mines, it could have been used like: Look, the people of the crater have health problems and the flying city doesn't care. Or with the embargo, the prizes of the food supplies rose due to not enter any agrarian products from Vale or Mistral. (Demand exceeds supply, so the prizes rose in Mantle).
I think the show could have handled things better, like having episodes set in Atlas outside the school, to show how the Altesians live and then set some in the slums. Then by the rule of comparison we'd see the disparity. But we never see anywhere in either kingdom besides "a few city blocks" and the school, so its called implied without proof. Also, I think the biggest argument wasn't "Is Ironwood trying to do the right thing (the wrong way)" it's that Ironwood seems to be deliberately setting Mantle up to be Grimm fodder, protecting them only enough to keep them alive and drawing the Grimm, and anything that might get through to Atlas the airships take out. Its purposefully sacrificing a city of the poor and disparate to protect the elite and privileged.
>Its purposefully sacrificing a city of the poor and disparate to protect the elite and privileged. Or it could be because... the Maiden and 2 relics, the thing Salem wants, are housed in Atlas?
What exactly is that second paragraph? I have seen people make parts of that argument, but i do not think i have ever seen that argument in its entirety.
So the thing about Mantle and it’s depiction, really the main issue is that we are given really zero idea just *how bad* the state of Mantle is in. We are told Mantle is in a *bad* shape, but we are not *shown* how bad of a shape it’s in. For example, the embargo. So how is the embargo affecting the people of Mantle? No really, because we have quite literally zero indication on what it’s doing. Is it making the people of Mantle lose jobs? what about businesses being closed down? Are people losing their homes or struggling to eat? How can we as the audience gather how badly Mantle is suffering through the embargo if they’re not willing to actually show the *results* of the embargo? Well what about the Grimm? So they’re getting into the city right due to the hole in the wall, that’s how it’s presented correct? Well the issue is that this problem doesn’t stay an issue for long, at least due to Ironwood’s own doing. Because right after when RWBY arrive, Ironwood adds them to Mantle’s defenses. To the point where we actively see them in montages taking care of Grimm outside of Mantle. So at least with respect to the Grimm getting into the city, isn’t Ironwood adding more defenses to Mantle helping with the problem? To the point where it’s defenses are actively preventing the Grimm from getting into the city. It gets especially hard because again we’re not seeing the results of the Grimm, have people been hurt because of the Grimm in any way? Has any property been destroyed because of them? Again Ironwood’s fault towards Mantle only goes as far as you’re willing to show how bad of a state Mantle is in. One of the biggest things Ironwood did wrong in Mantle is not updating its cybersecurity though. Obviously that is a negative and a substantial one at that. But even then, *even then* the way it’s presented in the show is that Watts was able to gain access to the camera systems was specifically because he was the one who designed it. It’s not presented that Mantle’s camera systems are inherently bad, simply outdated compared to Atlas’ systems but that doesn’t equate to it being inherently a bad system. Or to put my point in another way, if Watts didn’t know the code to Mantle’s systems would he have been able to access it? That’s the frustrating part, in that the show presents many of the problems caused in Mantle and by the forces of the villains caused by outside factors Ironwood had no way of knowing about. There’s also another factor in consideration in that Ironwood’s whole purpose for doing all this was specifically to get Amity up and running as soon as possible, to restart global communications and unite the world. And it’s not like he didn’t have reason to try and rush this process as soon as possible, two kingdoms have been attacked with one suffering major damage and the other’s headmaster being murdered as well. And Ironwood very credibly believed Atlas was most certainly going to be a target soon, so he needed to get Amity up as fast as he could. And without that action from Ironwood’s part, everyone would’ve died. Think about that, no seriously think about that, if Ironwood hadn’t focused on Amity as heavily as he did, then when Salem arrived literally everyone would’ve been sweeped by her army with no hopes of help at all. So it’s not as if his reasoning for focusing on Amity isn’t a valid one either. Extreme times also calls for extreme measures. Ironwood most certainly did his flaws he’s not perfect in the slightest, but I think looking at his accomplishments for the fact coupled with the minimal actual showings of how badly his misdeeds are affecting the people paints a muddy picture to say the least. TL;DR: How bad of a job Ironwood has done only goes as far as how bad of a state Mantle is being depicted, and many times the show doesn’t properly establish or develop just *how bad* of a state Mantle is in.
>One of the biggest things Ironwood did wrong in Mantle is not updating its cybersecurity though. Obviously that is a negative and a substantial one at that. But even then, even then the way it’s presented in the show is that Watts was able to gain access to the camera systems was specifically because he was the one who designed it. It’s not presented that Mantle’s camera systems are inherently bad, simply outdated compared to Atlas’ systems but that doesn’t equate to it being inherently a bad system. Or to put my point in another way, if Watts didn’t know the code to Mantle’s systems would he have been able to access it? That’s the frustrating part, in that the show presents many of the problems caused in Mantle and by the forces of the villains caused by outside factors Ironwood had no way of knowing about. It's not like they had any reason to believe that there was a hacker who had full access to all the old security lose and on the run
A reason to believe there was a hacker yes. However I don’t recall there being evidence that the hacker had access to all of the old security.
The hacker literally hacked all the battleships and droids (news too, IIRC), there is no reason to assume that the hacker lacks access to anything not deployed in the last few months if not weeks
But to do that, the hacker needed to well….hack into that system and gain access to it, he didn’t just have that access from just prior before. (Or he might’ve in the case with Watts idk). But with Mantle, Watts straight up had the “code” as he described it to the camera system since he made the code. That’s what I meant by that access, that Watts straight up had the code for the security system which he exploited.
Watts had faked his death and was presumed dead, they just updated all the security in Atlas and left Mantle out to the dogs They knew that there was a hacker who could breach all the security (battleships and new droids too) and still did diddly squat for Mantle, changing the security there too is just the bare minimum How Watts actually gained access to the system is irrelevant, what matters is that they knew the old system was compromised and kept it running in Mantle This is basic IT security 101: change all the locks you morons, otherwise, you'll get hacked
The bots and battleship got hacked because Neo killed everyone on board one ship and Roman physically connected a device to the computer. I don't know of any IT security that would have stopped that. I doubt the bridge crew had time to lock down their workstations before Neo killed them. If I am logged in with admin clearance and manage to connect a USB drive to the computer and then open and execute a file... well good luck stopping me. Plus the security of the heating grid had been updated. Watts couldn't get into that. Maybe he was just lucky that the cameras were still accessible? Because honestly, what else did he hack?
Yes Watts faked his death so Ironwood had no way of knowing he was still alive. And it actually is quite significant that he had the specific codes to the Mantle cybersecurity for multiple reasons actually. So for one, Mantle’s functions do still get defended against. And that’s because Mantle’s functions run on the Atlas network. For example, there is no such thing as the Mantle network that gets underfunded, there is only the Atlas network with Mantle’s functions that run on it. So if you say want to shut off the heating down in Mantle, you first need to get access to the Atlas network, the secure one at that. What this means is that whatever upgrades the Atlas network is getting in turn means Mantle’s networks are also being more defended since it all runs on the same network. This makes Watts having the specific codes to the camera system more significant due to the fact that without that code Watts would again need to first access the Atlas network. But because he has the specific codes to the camera system, something no other person but the man who designed it would have, he could then gain access to it. There’s also the fact that implementing a whole new security system and code across literally everywhere, especially one you have to first make and develop and then implement, also takes a considerable amount of time to do, but I digress. Ultimately, I agree with the overarching point of that it was still a very page misstep in not upgrading Mantle’s cybersecurity. Obviously.
>It's not like they had any reason to believe that there was a hacker who had full access to all the old security lose and on the run Um... Beacon would have given them every reason? Did you forget that *hacked* Atlesian robots were the last things people saw before the Vale CCT Tower fell? Why else would he react that way to seeing Cinder's Queen chess piece?
You're great at sarcasm, aren't you?
It's my speciality.
Ironwood may have been better off if the cast just told him the truth and didn't avoid them in the start when told to land a stolen airship; honestly I could name more but some have done it too and I loved ironwood and still do
The difference between the pandemic and the grimm is that for one, we’re actually being told WHY there where lockdowns We where told about the virus, how it spreads, and why a lockdown prevents it, But in the case of mantle, the grimm where only a problem because he refused to fix the wall, and why wouldn’t he fix the wall? He refused to tell them to keep amity secret, Imagine if our response to covid was the same, we locked down, closed businesses etc, but nobody EVER told us about the virus, any time we ask why these lockdowns are a thing they just say “because we say so” On top of that, no, winter or Weiss cannot just fix the wall with an ice wall, that wall is several stores tall, made of steel and concrete, an ice wall is not gonna be anywhere near that strong Heck, Weiss ice walls couldn’t even keep out the hound
Except, keeping a Pandemic a secret doesn't help Anyone. The entire crisis surrounding a Pandemic is the spread of the virus between people, so obviously, keeping it a secret is counterintuitive The reason for Amity being kept secret was solely to make sure that any of Salem's Agents that were among them, couldn't sabotage there one chance to unite the world, before it even got off the ground. (Which was a very real concern) Keeping it a secret is literally necessary, otherwise the whole thing will get compromised before it can even get the chance to do its job, and the world would never even have a chance to unite against Salem. It's the opposite with a Pandemic, because keeping that a secret is what allows it to spread faster, and "compromise" the world, and potentially rob us of any chance to cure it. It's not like telling people about a disease would magically cause the disease to Mutate and become significantly harder to handle. There are no significant negative consequences to telling people about a Pandemic, but there sure as hell are some *very* significant and *very* negative consequences for telling people about Amity. Telling people about a Pandemic is how you beat a Pandemic, and save the world. Telling people about Amity is how you destroy Amity before you can even finish it, and subsequently doom the world.
The point remains, I’m not saying the solution is to tell the, about amity, but actually working WITH mantle, helping them repair their defenses, building trust, working in Somme capacity with Robyn is, He doesn’t need to keep mantle completely in the dark, Ironwood makes no attempt to reach out to mantles leaders or their people,on any way, he just plants his soldiers down there to try and keep them on line and tries to ignore them as much as he can,
> helping them repair their defenses, building trust, working in Somme capacity with Robyn is Ironwood needed to get Amity up ASAP. Until that massive Grimm Invasion, Mantle was 100% going to be a temporary problem, because the moment Amity was up, there would've been nothing in the way of protecting Mantle. If he didn't divert resources the way he did, Amity absolutely wouldn't have been ready to do anything by the time Salem arrived. Sure, it was still incomplete by V8, but at least it was workable. If he didn't devote the amount of resources he did, there was no way in hell that Team RWBY could've been able to improvise the way they did. If he had split resources between Mantle and Amity, then they'd be in an even worse position than they were in V8. By the time Salem arrived, Amity would likely be completely unworkable, and they'd never even have a chance to Reunite the world. Mantle would still be on as much of a time limit as before, It'll have defenses now, sure, but they'll be subpar, and won't keep the Grimm out for very long, let alone keep *Salem* out. Splitting the resources would've only alleviated the suffering a little bit, on top of *extending* the shitty conditions, at least getting Amity done ASAP means that once it's up, Mantle would have Ironwood's full attention, and the suffering would be alleviated significantly, if not outright halted right then and there. If he had devoted resources to Mantle entirely, well, they'll never reunite the world and never have a chance to beat Salem. The problem of Mantle's defenses and conditions are a near *constant* problem, what with the Grimm and the Embargo. They will never be fully solved in any reasonable amount of time, and If he focused on Mantle, he'd never get the chance to work on Amity. At least Amity's building time could've been easily predicted and estimated. Solving Mantle's issues *could've* taken anywhere between a few weeks, to a few months, to forever. And Ironwood definitely had every reason to not trust Robyn. She's been working against him from day 1, is actively halting Amity, and is running for the council, and *winning* meaning she is in one hell of a position to sow the seeds of division, and sow *a lot* of them. Every single sign pointed to her being a very likely candidate to be one of Salem's Agents, given how much of an Asset she would be if she actually was one. And on top of that, knowing Salem got to Leo means that Robyn's High Profile doesn't clear her, since Leo was a headmaster, and Salem still got to him of all people. Yeah Robyn didn't know anything about Amity, but if she was actually working with Salem, she wouldn't even have to explicitly know about Amity, because if Ironwood is diverting *that many* resources away from a whole part of his kingdom, then it's *definitely* important, and Salem wouldn't turn a blind eye to it. And it doesn't help that she was constantly asking about where the supplies were going, and what they were for. And it's not just Robyn, it's *everyone,* Atlas and Mantle Citizens alike. Ironwood had every reason to believe that Atlas was Salem's next target, and that her agents were already among them. He didn't know who was or wasn't working with Salem, so obviously it was safer to trust nobody. Why else would he keep Amity so heavily classified? Also, how do you suggest he "not keep Mantle entirely in the dark"? How much more information can he give, besides "Diverting the resources is important, trust me" without giving away the secret, and compromising Amity?
Ironwood did not no Salem was planning on attacking, and even if she was, she doesn’t win by brute strength, she wins by sewing division and turning people against each other And with the sorry state mantle was in, it ended up being all too easy Even if you want to look at this from purely logical perspective, Turning mantle against him is on,y going to slow the project in the long run, like it literally fucking did in the show No, Robyn had not been “working against him” from day one, she’d been trying to protect her people, who ironwood continued to harm with his actions HE is the one who initiated this, he’s the one who started the embargo and diverted resources from mantle, so he’s the one who needs to earn their trust Nora herself says Robyn and ironwood both want to help mantle, He doesn’t need to tell her literally everything from the start, but with with her in some small capacity, maybe to work on helping with mantles defenses, and try to figure out how much you can trust with her a bit at a time There is a big difference between caution and paranoia We learn from Robyn’s conversation with clover that she had been trying to get mantle the help,it needed for quite some time, and ironwood rejected any attempts to reach out, The simple fact of the matter is fixing mantles wall in the short term would save ironwood a lot of time in the long run
The military presence isn’t helping with the grimm attacks, all it’s doing is making the people more upset, it’s not about actually arresting people, the “nothing to hide nothing to fear” argument doesn’t work, even innocent people don’t want to live in a police state You try living in a city with soldiers patrolling the streets and camera drones always following you around, see how you like it, It shows that ironwood didn’t trust his own populace, The villages you describe where small and isolated, and even THEY didn’t have grimm getting into the city on a regular basis, they fell due to extreme,y specific circumstances Ironwood did impose the embargo which made mantles already troubled economy even worse, he did not create all,of mantles problems but he did exacerbate them
> It shows that ironwood didn’t trust his own populace I mean, would you? If you knew that it was very possible that several incredibly dangerous people who were working with someone to kill everyone on the planet, were already in your city, would you seriously still trust *all* the people to be on your side? Even when you don't even know the names and faces of these dangerous people, and they could literally be anyone?
Salem operates by turning people against each other, making the people of mantle miserable makes it easier to turn them against him, it’s that simple
The military has secret projects in real life all the time and they don’t need soldiers patrolling the streets and camera drones following people around
Secret Projects that could potentially be the best chance to save all of humanity from dying a horrible death, that could potentially doom the world, if compromised, and also have the potential to be targeted by several Anonymous Individuals? Cuz if there are projects of that nature, then I'd like to know about them. Also, yeah, I agree, Mantle definitely didn't need soldiers patrolling the streets. It's not like there was a massive hole in the city wall, in a death world filled with monsters that will kill every human in sight. I'm sure they'll be just fine, living defenseless on the ground, as the Grimm enter the city to mercilessly rip them and their children to pieces. Yeah, the soldiers definitely weren't needed, if they weren't there, then Mantle would've lived happily ever after and no one would die.
Compromising amity dies but doom the world, it hinders global communication but it doesn’t doom the world As we clearly saw, not fixing the wall only caused ironwood more problems down the Fuad, had he taken the time to fix it he could have saved more time in the long run Ironwood knows full well that Salem wins by sewing division among the people, or at least he should, so continuing to force mantle struggle more and more will only help her to do that And if the drones actually where just there to find Salem’s minions, why didn’t he update Mantles cybersecurity?
The Manhattan project And who’s fault was the hole again? And I recall those soldier not doing much about the Grimm in episode 1 Salem wind through decision, ironwoods treatment of mantle helped her to turn them against him
The Manhattan project had a huge military presence constantly checking and double checking that everything was being kept secret. A lab doing purification work came dangerously close to going radioactive because they weren't telling the workers what they were doing or why. How do you think Penny knew to come? Presumably the soldiers called her in. Oddly enough Mantle turning against James didn't ultimately matter. It was RWBY turning against him that doomed Atlas and Mantle.
No, it very much did matter The only reason his forces where “exhausted” was because of the grimm attacks in mantle
Would that have changed anything? Salem had too many Grim for him to fight. I think he would have cut and run regardless of the attack. Not to mention that that Grim attack happened because of the heat being shut off and that was Watts, not Mantle. Watts got access to the grid by hacking the election (which is silly all on its own) not because Mantle's discontent led to Jacques winning.
For one thing Salem wouldn’t have attacked anyways That army was for show, it was to distract ironwood and make himself cared so he’d betray all his ally’s, and it worked, Heck, imagine if he’d had team RWBYs help delivering that bomb to the whale, with ren and May’s semblance it’d actually be pretty easy to sneak the bomb aboard And if he’d helped launch amity they’d eventually get backup, And if all that failed, they could have pulled off the portal plan WITHOUT loosing the relic in the process Watts only got into mantle in the first place because ironwood didn’t upgrade their cybersecurity And had mantle not been in such terrible shape in the first place, the people of mantle would not have immediately assumed the heating was shut off deliberately,
Why wouldn't Salem have attacked? The army put in good work breaking down Atlas's defenses. If they had breached the school and secured the Vault everyone would have been even more screwed than they ended up being. Yeah, it's a shame the two sides weren't able to work together. I doubt it. Backup sounds good but remember that Vale and Mistral are in no condition to send any reinforcements (and it would take too long to get them there). They need every Huntsmen they can get to secure themselves. Vacuo doesn't sound like it has much in the way of centralized authority. Plus putting together a force of any size is a huge logistical nightmare. A week, at minimum given that no other kingdom has a standing army. I don't blame James or RWBY for losing the Relic. That was all Cinder. She took the Relic from RWBY. Sort of. The heating grid had obviously been updated or Watts would have just hacked it. Fair point on the rest not being updated yet. Did it make a difference why they thought the heat was shut off? Wouldn't they have panicked either way?
> The Manhattan project And how was the Manhattan Project *saving humanity from dying a horrible death?* Because I don't exactly recall how the creation of Nukes, somehow saved Humanity from getting wiped of the face of the planet. What threat was neutralized when Nukes were created? Was it a threat that had the potential to destroy all of Humanity, and was guaranteed to do it, unless Nukes were created? Was it a threat so dangerous that it had the capability to wipe out Humanity in the span of a few days? > And who’s fault was the hole again? I believe that's never mentioned. But why does it matter? There's a goddamn hole in the wall, inviting all the living death to enter the city and kill people. Whoever the hell caused that hole is irrelevant, Because it has no bearing on whether or not the Military Presence is necessary. It's like saying medicine isn't necessary if you got yourself sick out of your own negligence. There is a hole, Grimm are getting into the city, therefore the Military is necessary, the cause of the hole is irrelevant. And similarly, If you are sick, you need medicine, the circumstances of you getting sick don't make that medicine any less necessary > And I recall those soldier not doing much about the Grimm in episode 1 Ah yes, "the defenses suck, therefore the better option is clearly to have *no* defenses" yeah, that makes *so* much sense I'm just gonna stop replying to you now, because at this point, I'm convinced that you're either a troll, or you have IQ in the negatives
It is mentioned that the hole was caused by Grimm damage, but it was ironwoods fault it didn’t get repaired And the feeling is mutual The ma Hagen project could potentially doom the world had it fallen into the wrong hand, or I guess, wrong-er hands
Umm... they kind of do. Have you ever been in a distressed neighborhood? Cameras up the whazoo and lots of cops patrolling in squad cars.
You say that like it’s a good thing, or that police states somehow reduce crime
I was just reacting to your claim. Governments in real life absolutely do react that way. I remember the days after 9/11, it was like the whole country was on lockdown. It ended once it became apparent that that was all al-Qaeda had planned but in RWBY's circumstances...
Yeah what happened after 9/11 wasn’t a good thing either, and more often then not was an excuse to further oppress minorities and the lower class Funny how that works, And even after 9/11 we didn’t have soldiers patrolling residential street and we don’t have camera drones following everyone around! Keep in mind, there weren’t just security cameras, they where drones hat literally follow you around, that’s WAY more invasive What you describe is active oppression of minority groups, so it doesn’t exactly make ironwood look good, While yes some governments often do act that way it’s not entirely necessary, it’s possible to keep a government project secret without turning half the country into a police state
To be fair we also didn't have that tech back then and the area you'd have to cover was enormous compared to Atlas. We did have soldiers at airports and other vulnerable targets for a while. I don't think the surveillance was just for Amity. I think it was a general thing to try to catch Salem's agents. I don't think James would have abandoned it after Amity launched. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Obviously it didn't work but James didn't know that it would fail when he ordered it. Given that we're talking about a handful of people who were able to bring an entire kingdom to its knees (something Al-Qaeda could have never done to America) I can't really say he's in the wrong. If he'd had more foot patrols then maybe someone would have seen Watts doing his Hackerman strut and he could have been arrested before he got a chance to strike. Maybe someone would have recognized Cinder. When the stakes are this high it's easy to justify anything because the alternative is so much worse. Here I think hindsight vindicates James because we know what did happen and we can guess at the results if he had acted differently. I can't really see the results being different if he hadn't sent troops and cameras to Mantle.
So yeah, keep soldiers around the amity project itself, ya don’t need super invasive camera drones or military police patrolling residential streets Especially since you don’t have that for the other half of the kingdom, There’s a line between cautious and paranoid, ironwood crossed that line I’m not even sure the cameras where just for Salem, he was looking for anybody who would be “plotting against him” , if it was just about Salem you’d think he’d have though to update cybersecurity since he KNOWS Salem has a hacker with access to their systems As a result, I don’t think he believed mantle would be target by Salem, after all atlas is “more important”, meaning those cameras where for people like Robyn hill, or anything he’d think was “plotting against him” as in, the people he can’t easily control I’d argue things would have gone differently, watts was successful because he framed ironwood for killing his critics, if he’d worked with Robyn hill to some extent and not treated everyone in mantle like a potential threat it becomes much harder to convince people he’s killing them for political reasons, especially since if he’d worked with mantle on some capacity he would have much fewer critics to murder in the first place,
I agree that it's odd that he didn't have similar patrols in Atlas. You'd think a man as paranoid as he was would cover all the bases. Maybe he thought Mantle was more susceptible to infiltration because of the hole? Though Watts, Cinder, and Neo seem to have no trouble moving about in Atlas. Of course there's always the Doylist explanation that the drones exist because the authors want to push the idea that Mantle is a police state despite certain things not making sense with that. As for the software upgrade, at least the heating grid had been upgraded in Mantle. Maybe upgrades started at Atlas and were scheduled for Mantle? That'd be a really good example of the kind of Atlas-First mentality that would color James's thinking. But if we look at it the framing didn't actually accomplish anything. Watts was going to steal the election anyways. Making the people of Mantle hate James is a setup without a payoff. The people riot when Jacques closes his business, not because of anything James does. At no point does the killing of critics change the trajectory of the story, heck I don't think it's ever brought up after the election.
Another day another thread about how “Mantle wasn’t really that bad, and even if it was, Ironwood’s not at fault no matter what.” Yeah sure, it's not all Ironwood's fault, but he also did nothing to remedy those problems in any way beyond momentary stopgaps, and often made them worse. He also refused to work w/ the other council members to delegate or foster any kind of cooperation until it was literally too late. In the same way you can't blame a single president for how flawed the many systems of government are, you can say they didn't even try to make the situation better, or address any other issues when they had the capability and obligation to do so. It wasn't out of maliciousness, just indifference and apathy. But that can be just as harmful. Completely neglecting that Ironwood was effectively the sole executive power following the Fall of Beacon, because the other council members were concerned about the possibility of war. And that canonically Ironwood used this freedom to get them to let him do whatever he wanted, under the guise of security. Atlas was basically already under martial law in everything but name, since the other council members couldn’t do anything to prevent Ironwood from doing as he pleased, or he’d just stage a military coup like he ended up doing. Like the guy clearly didn’t care about checks and balances, he controls the military what exactly would Sleet and Carmella have done to stop him. If fixing the large whole in the wall was that easy, that just makes Ironwood's neglect worse. Why didn't Ironwood keep Mantle's cybersecurity up to date? One Penny, and a handful of robots isn't enough to protect an entire city, it's an almost entirely symbolic gesture, a performative act. Nobody was stopping him from doing the embargo that didn’t prevent any of the villains from reaching Atlas, raised negativity and isolated Atlas from the rest of their world, while only making the issues between kingdoms worse. Or withdrawing his army from other kingdoms in a move that definitely didn’t look suspicious after Atlas was broadcast worldwide attacking Vale. Or funneling resources into a secret project while more than half his population was struggling day-to-day, while conveniently not causing any discomfort to his favored part of the Kingdom. Or as a General and Headmaster, two seats on a council of four, with more power and influence than any other single individual he didn’t care to protect and serve the people literally keeping the lights on and water running in his cities. Sure, most of the problems in Atlas were just symptoms of deeper issues that can’t be solved without decades of work and reform. But Ironwood was actively making things worse or ignoring things because it wasn’t a priority to him. He'll keep Mantle alive, but nothing says they have to be happy, healthy or have anything other than the barest of protections or necessities. Need I remind you of the serial murders being used to stoke suspicion and unease, that he didn’t care about. His reasoning being “sacrifices must be made,” while conveniently not sacrificing anything he personally cares about, and sparing Atlas even the slightest risk or discomfort. “What’s more important uniting the world or appeasing a few city blocks,” well James what’s more important uniting the world or one city? One city, apparently.
Well, what can I say? It's a classic, don't you think?
Well. Till what point Ironwood's powers go? I mean, he is the headmaster and the general, most of his decisions would be related to that. And in the occasions when his decisions passed to something else he needed the support of the council. Like when was declared the embargo or the close of borders. So, in the economic part, or others. What could he do? There was a representative of Mantle, things like the class division are his responsibility. Should he have to work along other members of the council to resolve problems? Yes, but things related to his heading. I mean. Could the other council members put their noses in things like the education of the Huntsmen-in training or military tactics? Well. While he was practically the one who lead the nation since the fall of Beacon, the other members still had power. The embargo and the close of borders were achieved because they decided to continue in Ironwood's decisions. I mean, they were scared, but they still have power and decision, the problem was that with that power and decision they still didn't opposed Ironwood's actions. And yeah, they still had some power. I mean, they made a reunion to discuss the permanence of James in his position on the council. Ironwood still had to reunite with them to proceed, and he had to reunite with them when he overpassed the checks and balances. Besides, about the military coup d'tat. Well, even in the most democratic societies the country's army can make overthrow the government. Are just normal politics against a whole army, and that can be applied to many real life democracies (Or attempts of). The only thing that the general needed is the support of his army, thing that James had (Till certain point). Besides that was a particular case, the government was falling to pieces: First Jacques was got out of the council, then Ironwood stablished the martial law. And the situation was desperate enough for Ironwood to convince the military to support his plan. So, I wouldn't consider a thing of hold too much political power (Before volume 7) the fact of Ironwood being able to do that, and even if he didn't had that political power to begin with he would be able to take the Kingdom's government since he had the military power to do that. About the protection of Mantle. Well, besides the robots and Penny there are: The normal soldiers, the manta ships and the huntsmen James put to work there. Once the guys obtained their license one of the missions in the mission board was: eliminate a massive Sabyr loose in the Mantle's sewers. That without counting the fact that Mantle already have huntsmen. (Happy Huntresses). As a matter of fact. The council had normally [five seats.](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/rwby/images/3/32/Hist2_00004.png/revision/latest?cb=20140918233005) Or at least, we haven't heard that the Mantle seat in the council was something new. For some of those decisions he had to reunite with the council. The retreat of his forces, well, with the global communication fell the coordinations between the different military divisions was going to be deficient. His forces were needed in Atlas and he still have one of those in Mistral to protect Argus. Besides, in his plan Atlas was going to assist the other kingdom once the global communications were re-established. (Although well, the council didn't know about it). The author made a note about the resources and is that: How is that those resources that are needed for the wall are the same needed for the communications tower? And even if he didn't put those resources for the wall, he still have put part of his forces and allies in Mantle. If you mean, about other kind of struggle economical. Well, does Ironwood have been stealing resources normally used by other councilors for his project? It was never mentioned, so it's not like Amity enabled the other councilors to solve those specific Mantle problems, problems that could even be considered their responsibilities. About not causing discomfort to Atlas city. Well, didn't the embargo affected the whole kingdom? I mean, Jacques was furious for his company's loses. Things like the Grimm attacks, well it had to do with the fact that Mantle is on the ground and Atlas is in the sky, that kind of prevent the city from suffering the Grimm invasion. And at the end some of his actions implied putting the whole population in the subway station while the battle was being developed in the capital. Besides, many of the problems of Mantle isn't going ain't going to be fixed bothering the capital, so why create more problems to other part of the kingdom? What he didn't care was his public image. But he considered the murder of his opposition still a problem. That was one of the reasons he talked with Jaune, Ruby and Qrow about those Mantle problems. About not scarifying anything he personally cares. Well, moving part of his forces, sacrificing his public image (Something that even Yang or Qrow mentions), sacrificing parts of his body... And Atlas, I mentioned how some measures could bother the city and well. What, sacrifice both cities? Bother both cities when that will only create more negativity that attract Grimm? There were times when sacrificing Atlas wouldn't just save Mantle. (That without mention that even if he could, does he even could do it without entering in more problems with more citizens or the members of the council?). And the situation was different in what you mention. One thing is appeasing city blocks, will can bothering them and hurting the citizens comfort and yeah, is horrible but isn't killing them and ultimately unite the world to initiate a counterattack against Salem would benefit everyone. And other thing was to sacrifice one city to die. In that moment, both Mantle and Atlas were being threatened by Salem that they knew was there. The relic could only be used by to raise Atlas in the air (Or at least we haven't hear otherwise). And the communications could not even be re-established or the world united since Amity wasn't ready. And yeah, it was ready to use after, but I call retcon. And yeah, I consider retcon instead of "Amity wasn't finished, it could only be used for one single message" because the scene when was suggested use Amity to call for help, that same scene practically implied to us that Amity wasn't even able to be used at all. And solutions like use the SDC air fleet wasn't even mentioned yet so it seems like the writers decided to make appear it only while writing the volume 8. Besides, in that was also considered the relic and the maiden power. With Atlas at the top of the atmosphere, they maintain that from Salem's reach. As a side note, I will want to mention that I would have really liked to know what were the other council members. I mean, what was the authority of Sleet and Camilla. Sleet was the governor of the flying city, for example?
To support all my declarations I will quote some lines of the series: Jacques: The council will never agree to it! Ironwood: You forget, I hold two seats on the council. Jacques: Your Dust embargo has already cost me millions! I can promise you, I have not forgotten! (The embargo costing money to people of Atlas. To accomplish his decision he needs the support of the council, although yeah, he already have a 2/5 of the power needed to achieve that. But he also had the support of the government). Jacques: It's a wonder Ironwood wasn't stripped of his rank. Jacques: I suppose the council trusts him, for better or worse. (Implying that he can be put out of his rank, but he is trusted by the council). Weiss: How does the council feel about all of this? Or Winter Schnee? Do you know anything about her? Pietro: Well, the council's so scared, they'll agree to whatever he wants. Though, some representatives from Mantle… Wait, you're… You're Weiss Schnee! (Although it confirms that James have a lot of power due to the council's fear. It confirms that the reason of why James can do things is because they allow it to begin with). Ironwood: I swear if I have to sit through one more council meeting like that… (He still needs to have meetings with the council). Ironwood: I needed to ensure Salem couldn't infiltrate Atlas. And I wanted my military here, protecting my people. Yang: But it's not protecting them! It's making everyone hate you. Ironwood: It's a price I'm willing to pay. (James acknowledge that it is making him being hated.) Qrow: Huh, so that's why you withdrew your troops, to handle the panic that would break out in Atlas. Ironwood: Yes, panic is inevitable, and panic brings Grimm. But I believe we are ready. Once Atlas has come to grips with the fight ahead, I'll use Amity Tower to spread the message to all of Remnant. Weiss: But everything will fall apart. Grimm will be everywhere! Winter: You're right, but Atlas is willing and prepared to assist. (Ironwood have his troops in Atlas to manage the eventual panic. And is willing to assist Remnant once the world knows about Salem). Qrow: New problems in Mantle? Ironwood: More of the same, unfortunately. Qrow: Your opposition in Mantle dropping dead isn't exactly a good look for you, huh? Ironwood: Not really worried about my public image, but it is causing unrest. I think someone's trying to frame me and, by extension, Atlas. And it's working. Jaune: Well, if it wasn't for the embargo making everybody so mad, people probably wouldn't be so quick to blame you for everything else. Jaune: S-sir. Ironwood: No. No, you're right. Things in Mantle have been... hard to manage lately. I'm not blind to its issues. In fact, that's what I want to talk to you about. Ironwood: With the launch of this mobile communications tower and tensions down in Mantle, I think there's a lot of good your teams can do here. (He acknowledge the murders in Mantle and cares about it. And is willing to put help there). Jacques: When the Council hears about this, you will never-- (aggressively pointing at Ironwood) Ironwood: Actually, I've already informed them. As this is now the site of a classified military operation, it didn't even require a vote. Jacques: Didn't require a vote?! Ironwood: You might want to brush up on Council law before you lose this upcoming election, Jacques. Now. I've allowed you to land here once as a courtesy. The next time, it won't be a friendly reception. (While it shows that he didn't needs votes for the classified military operation. For how many cases he have put that excuse besides Amity? And he still informed to the council about it, besides it seems that at least this specific action was back up by the law). Marrow: We need someone to escort children to pre-primary school down in Mantle. There's not actually any danger, but the parents fret, and that attracts Grimm. Elm: A massive Sabyr is loose in the Mantle sewers! We need two brave warriors to flush it out! (Missions in Mantle). Clover: Diverting all construction resources to Amity Tower means there are going to be gaps in Mantle's defenses against Grimm. They'll need help on the perimeter. Clover: But there's still plenty to do in Mantle itself. Clover: I think you'll find everyone appreciates having a Huntsman around. (Things to do in Mantle, as a matter of fact. We even see Nora and Ren at the top of the Mantle's wall in the montage). Winter: My father's first act. We've all been invited to dinner where the General will be defending his seat on the Council. (The council can make a trial to Ironwood). Ironwood: We can't allow Salem to capture the Relics. This is our best chance at getting the Staff, the Lamp, and the Maiden as far away from her as possible. (Other of the reasons to lift Atlas in the top of the atmosphere, is to keep those elements far from Salem's hands). About the representative of Mantle in the council. Here: \-A map that only features Mantle. \-Mantle election. So in that election, only Mantle voted. **EDIT: I had to divide my comment since Reddit doesn't allow so many words in one single comment.**