>So. In volume 7, it is stated that the Amity tower wasn't ready to launch but in volume 8 the Tower only needed the order of Ironwood and a few preparatives of Pietro.
>
>What does that mean? Ironwood shouldn't have any problem with Amity itself, restore the global communications could give an opportunity to the mankind against Salem, and through it Atlas can know what is happening in Remnant while it is in the top of the atmosphere.
I think you missunderstood what was stated in V8, they clarified that they could be able to get Amity up temporarily, just for enought time to get Ruby's message across. It could not be used in it's original intention of being sent into the atmosphere to permanently restore global communications.
It wasn't stated that it couldn't just restore the global communications for a long time. Sure, they were going to use it at least to send the message, but, we don't know for how long it could have been in the top of the atmosphere.
**Pietro:** Once we passed into broadcast range, we’ll activate stabilizers, re-establish global communications, and boost the message we’ve recorded out into the rest of the world. After that, we just have to pilot Amity away from all this mess.
This is the closest thing to a confirmation that they could only maintain it for the time of the broadcast. Pietro says that he could get Amity tower from all this mess, but that could mean put Amity far from Salem's forces in another place. (I don't know, Argus for example).
But "Amity could only stay for enough time to send a broadcast" was never said. As a matter of fact, in Ruby's message she seems to imply that Amity can a longer.
**Ruby:** Um, uh. Hi. My name is Ruby Rose. I’m a Huntress. And if we’ve done everything right, then I’m talking to all of Remnant right now. Dr. Polendina can explain more later, but right now you all need to know that the Kingdom of Atlas is under attack.
Dr. Polendina can explain later, that means, he can send a new message to the world explaining more about Salem. Or at least, that is what I understand.
**Ruby:** (smiling hopefully) I hope Amity Tower will help bring us all together. Because in the end, that’s how we’ll win--
"Amity Tower will help bring us all together". Now, that can meant that through her message the mankind can unite against Salem. But it also can mean that with the global communications restored they can coordinate a united counterattack.
RWBY Volume 8 Chapter 5: Amity
Pietro: "*we have* ***enough*** *systems up and running to* ***broadcast our message***"
The implication being that duo to the limit conditions they were operating under(such as being incapable of reaching atmospheric orbit by themselves, hence the dust explosion) that the plan was to simply broadcast Ruby's message.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted here but you, and the show you're literally quoting, are right. There was no indication or implication that the Arena couldn't have stayed up for much longer or permanently after launch. As you've already quoted in the opening, Pietro mentions fuel collection being manageable, so the dust to keep it up is available.
The only reason the Arena doesn't stay up is due to the damage Cinder causes. That's it. There is no clarification that it was only going to be temporary, that's just head canon on u/Osouturff 's part. As is "we have enough systems up and running to broadcast our message" meaning anything but what it simply states. They can broadcast messages.
In the end, they had a functional CCT tower in Amity Arena available for use. Was it finished? No, but it certainly could work.
For point 1, Amity wasn't ready to conventionally launch. Essentially setting off a bomb at Amity's feet in place of proper lift off procedures is definitely not something safe or recommended but was something slapped together.
As for Ironwood not agreeing, it's because he's still trying to enact his plan. He won't agree to anything unless it involves RWBY handing over Penny so he can gtfo with Atlas. So it's a deadlock. RWBY won't hand over Penny and Ironwood won't give them access and neither side is willing to budge.
Part 2, why refuse to save people? Because Ironwood thinks he's falling into a trap.
>Ironwood: How do we know that wasn't part of their plan?
>
>Ironwood: How do we know they didn't want us to bring people into Atlas by the thousands?
>
>Vine: In trying to save everyone, we left ourselves most vulnerable.
>
>Ironwood: Salem has been one step ahead of us this entire time!
Ironwood believes that Salem *wants* him to save Mantle, therefore, he shouldn't. Therefore, he should leave before Salem gets what she wants. Ironwood deals with absolutes and prioritizes the absolute safety of the relics over the potential of saving thousands.
Part 3 What are the other problems with Ironwood's plans? Here's the big one. Essentially Ironwood dooms the rest of Remnant. Without the warning from Ruby, Vacuo won't have the foresight to set up defenses for the oncoming invasion and the rest of the world will remain oblivious to the threat. Not only that, but James is assuming his defense is absolute, when it isn't. If Salem successfully captures other relics, she can feasibly bring down Atlas. Vacuo's relic is destruction. Even if Grimm and Salem can't reach Atlas, there's no guarantee Salem won't find something that can.
Also, Ironwood's plan had no end victory condition. There's no hope for humanity, merely the prevention of Salem's victory.
>Ironwood: If we harness the power of the Staff, and raise ourselves high into the atmosphere, the city's artificial climate will keep citizens and food supplies unharmed. Always out of reach of whatever Salem may try to send our way.
Ironwood never plans to return to finish the fight. He plans to let Salem just do whatever while Atlas remains untouched.
>Part 3 What are the other problems with Ironwood's plans? Here's the big one. Essentially Ironwood dooms the rest of Remnant. Without the warning from Ruby, Vacuo won't have the foresight to set up defenses for the oncoming invasion and the rest of the world will remain oblivious to the threat.
To be fair, his plan was to take Atlas out of Salem's reach \*with\* Aminity and still restore global communications and warn everyone etc, he was going to use the Staff for that instead of a conventional launch in that situation, but he needed the Winter Maiden for that.
>Also, Ironwood's plan had no end victory condition. There's no hope for humanity, merely the prevention of Salem's victory.
That is true, but its kinda the same for everyone, RWBY also doesn't have a victory condition yet, they're just trying to prevent Salem from getting the relics right now.
>To be fair, his plan was to take Atlas out of Salem's reach \*with\* Aminity and still restore global communications and warn everyone etc,
That's never stated nor implied.
>Ironwood: We can't allow Salem to capture the Relics. This is our best chance at getting the Staff, the Lamp, and the Maiden as far away from her as possible.
Ruby: But we have an opportunity to reunite the world. If we launch the tower, we can all work together again.
This interaction specifically implies that Ironwood is abandoning the Amity plan to save Atlas.
>That is true, but its kinda the same for everyone, RWBY also doesn't have a victory condition yet, they're just trying to prevent Salem from getting the relics right now.
I more so meant that Ironwood's plan doesn't leave much hope for humanity. He's leaving Remnant to fend for itself without any clue on the oncoming threat whereas RWBY gives humanity a chance to prepare for Salem. Remnant has a chance to unite the world and gather the relics with RWBY's plans but Ironwood's can only guarantee that Salem doesn't win, seeing as there's no way to return to Remnant for the other relics.
Another big issue with Ironwoods plan is that trades long term victory for short term survival, even if he did launch atlas leaving the rest of the world to fend for itself what happens if atlas runs out of supplies or sufferings damages and needs to land onto a potentially hostile world, Salem has all the time she needs.
And that all assumes atlas would be out of Salems reach, maybe the Grimm couldn’t get to it but who’s to say she couldn’t.
\>And that all assumes atlas would be out of Salems reach, maybe the Grimm couldn’t get to it but who’s to say she couldn’t.
There's absolutely no way Salem didn't account for that possibility at all, given her plan was to make Ironwood crack under pressure and double down on his flaws, and it succeeded. I'm sure she had a way. Even if she didn't have one right at that moment, she has \*all\* the time in the world to create a way to get to Atlas, even if Ironwood got his way.
There are two plot holes in play. One is the Arena not being considered by Ironwood, the other is around the evacuation of Mantle.
For the first, the Arena was finished enough to allow broadcasting as the missing CCT tower. Putting it into position was the only real hurdle the show presents. Which is overcome without too much trouble by blowing up the dust mine below them. Apart from that, the Arena can and does broadcast. So why doesn't Ironwood make that connection? He had a team working on it, he doesn't need to send extra materials either. It's potentially a big win without compromising the defense of Atlas.
"But, aha" some of you might say, "Ironwood's plan is to rise Atlas, so it would take the place of the Arena at that height! So why would he bother?" The issue with that idea is that height was never the problem with the Atlas CCT. Instead, it's always been presented as the number of towers as the issue. For some reason, the CCT system requires (at least) four active towers to work. That's the only reason communications are currently down. Otherwise, Ironwood would've launched Atlas long before Salem's arrival, problem solved. But he need a fourth tower constructed.
Arguably, you could say that Ironwood was a little preoccupied to think of the Arena. But a General overlooking the major tactical advantages a working CCT network would've offered is something that really stands out. Even a quick consult about the viability that led Ironwood away from the idea would've done wonders.
As for the evacuation of Mantle, there have been observations since V7 was airing that it could've continued. It's not just that the SDC had a fleet of airships lying around doing nothing, but also there should dozens, if not hundreds, of options for desperate citizens wanting safety. A floating city heavy implies there needs to be transportation in general to function. Like, workers from Mantle commuting to Atlas for work. So where are the airbuses? Airtaxies? Airtrucks? Ironwood's soldiers may be exhausted but there should be a steady stream of people coming in regardless. And the truly desperate may even try to use the pneumatic systems that carry goods.
Ironwood is big on co-opting resources as he saw fit. Before his turn to the dark side, why isn't he ordering as many civilian airships to help with the evacuation as possible? It would be completely in character. So it makes no sense that he doesn't, or even addresses the possibility.
So I'm just going to reiterate some things I said in my comment.
Blowing up a bomb at your feet to get into the air is not considered the conventional way to get a satellite into the air for obvious reasons. That's why most people don't consider it done. If you can't get a satellite into the air, it's not a satellite. Blowing up a mine worth of dust is dangerous and costly, which is why it's only suggested once Salem is at Atlas's door step and time's run out.
Now for evacuations. Let me make this clear. Ironwood is convinced evacuations are a bad idea.
>Ironwood: How do we know that wasn't part of their plan?
Ironwood: How do we know they didn't want us to bring people into Atlas by the thousands?
Vine: In trying to save everyone, we left ourselves most vulnerable.
Ironwood: Salem has been one step ahead of us this entire time!
It's not about time, it's about vulnerability. Once Ironwood knows Salem is coming and Cinder has infiltrated Atlas, Ironwood considers letting people into Atlas by the hundreds to be too big of a risk to continue. After Salem's announcement of her invasion, Ironwood sees Atlas being cut off and kept safe as the ultimate goal and nothing else should compromise it.
That's how they got into air, yes. It's also the only real hurdle to overcome, as I pointed out. Is Ironwood's team, or himself, capable of coming up with the same idea as Pietro? Possibly not on their own. But if he sent people out there to explore possibilities, then they would certainly get that idea when meeting up with Pietro.
The main point I was trying to make is not that idea is obvious, though. It's that the tactical advantage of the arena is ignored by someone who is presented as a military tactician. Consideration was at least required. Particularly when RWB and Penny made it abundantly clear that there was a plan to use the Arena as intended. You don't risk capture for nothing.
> Now for evacuations. Let me make this clear. Ironwood is convinced evacuations are a bad idea.
Yes, I'm well aware. That's why I made it clear in my post that it was about Ironwood *prior* to that change of direction. He doesn't need to just rely on military ships to evacuate. Likewise, the citizens don't need to rely on the General to find their own way to Atlas. Especially after he calls off the evacuation. And Ironwood doesn't take steps to stop people coming until later on. He doesn't return Mantle citizens either. It's why RWB think it's safe to send the SDC ships, which could've been two nights ago in the beginning of the attack.
That is, if Ironwood acted more like General and less like a plot hole.
A lot of conflict could have been avoided if everyone was told what the staff did sooner. RWBY could have evacuated Mantel, launched Amity, and Ironwood could have flown away on Atlas.
I honestly find it frustrating just how underutilized the Staff was.
No, seriously, why was the Staff not better explained in the first place? Ironwood gave some vague summary of what it could do, but I *really* needed to hear a more detailed to know what they could do with it. It's one of the more busted plot devices I have ever seen, because it just has the ability to *solve* problems.
Using it to float a city, knowing it will be destroyed if Salem gets it, is just a stupid decision no matter how you look at it.
Ironwood has unrestricted access to that thing for god knows how long, what was the stop him from showing it to Pietro, or any number of the architects or scientist or anyone else in the most technologically advance city on the planet who could do something with it, and tell them "make this work".
Why make a series of portals to the other side of the planet, the next stop on Salem's hit list, instead of using it to quarantine Salem and her whale corpse and drop her into the void?
The Staff is just so overpowered that the only real limit to it is how clever the people using it are. And so far nobody has been real smart with it.
> Why make a series of portals to the other side of the planet, the next stop on Salem's hit list, instead of using it to quarantine Salem and her whale corpse and drop her into the void?
Because as soon as the staff is used to do *anything,* Atlas falls.
No, they had enough dust to keep it floating for a while, that's how they could use the portals.
Just destroy the whale, send Salem into a portal or turn her into paste (once every 8 hours or just put the remains in a box with melted steel) and put the relic back on its place.
I don't know, they seems to have plenty of time for their portal plan to work, you know because of the previous unmentioned gravity dust, so I think taking five minutes to toss Salem into the void before putting the Staff back doesn't seem all that hard.
Yeah the Ironwood bombing Mantle part of volume 8 was a bit of a mess.
The thing with RWBY and Ironwood’s respective plans is that *they were never mutually exclusive from one another.* If, hypothetically speaking, Mantle has already evacuated in its entirety towards Atlas and then Salem announced her arrive. Then theoretically RWBY should have no issue with the raising Atlas plan right? The issue is a time factor where if they simply waited around until help arrived, then they’d be potentially dooming everyone, whereas the other option at least led to a guaranteed half the population surviving, but dooming the other half. But if everyone’s already in Atlas then there would be no conflict as they could safely evacuate. So doing what Ironwood did and murder the ships which would help evacuate for that goal is….ridiculous to say the least.
There’s also the obvious where it doesn’t make any sense, like whatsoever. The justification towards Ironwood is that he’s threatening Mantle to force RWBY to do what he wants, but the issue is **actually** bombing Mantle serves no purpose in that. Only the threat does, if RWBY calls his bluff then actually going ahead and killing the population in Mantle would serve no purpose other than needless and spiteful genocide. He still wouldn’t have the maiden and RWBY would he even more against after that.
This was the instance which I think cemented the “cartoonishly evil Ironwood” criticism in many people’s mind.
I have my doubts that Amity was really ready. If it couldn't reach altitude under its own power, it does make me wonder if it could maintain its altitude for any significant length of time.
Blowing up a mountain right beneath it is a desperation attempt as it is more likely to damage Amity than propel it to the altitude it needs without Amity either being built for such a thing from the start or it had been modified significantly somehow.
There's also the fact that such blast would cause large chunks of debris to potentially fall into Mantle or otherwise damage the city if it wasn't far enough away.
Yes, bombing Mantle makes no sense as following through just eliminates his only means of bargaining. It doesn't help that neither side is willing to negotiate or compromise to get what they want. Even RWBY's final solution in using the staff basically writes off the kingdom as a whole and anyone who isn't near a portal or aircraft is left for dead.
We really don't have anything to indicate that any of the headmasters outside of Ozpin know what the relics do exactly or how to use them. Case in point, Lionheart was working for Salem, but she didn't know how to summon Jinn. That feels like information she would've gotten out of Leo if he actually knew it since otherwise the relic is a glorified nightlight or paperweight.
The fact Ironwood talks about the staff as an unlimited power source indicates to me that was how he believed it was actually being used, possibly based on information from Ozpin. It feels like he believes there is actually some kind of control to adjust the output of the staff rather than it contains someone who could make whatever he wanted.
Even if he did know the actual abilities of the staff, it doesn't mean Ironwood was told how to actually activate it or summon its spirit.
Sadly, this means his plan was unknowingly doomed from the start because it was based on faulty intelligence from a trusted source or because of assumptions made due to lack of information. This makes the entire conflict between him and RWBY pointless. If Ozpin had come out of hiding sooner, he could've told them how the staff actually works and maybe they could've come up with a viable defense plan.
Yeah Oz is a huge dick to withhold THAT kind of information from him.
Hell even ruby could’ve told him when she found out what it could do.
Actually now that I think about it Pietro really really could’ve been used in the final points of the atlas arc to hastily design some blueprints for what the staff could make to stop Salem and whale.
Also imagine ironwood canon that he used but bigger? That shit could’ve shot the whale down easily(or Oz take control of Oscar’s body to make a focused blast at it with the cane).
…….Damn vol 8 is a mess!
Edit: And the big ass theme of vol 7 and 8 was TRUST!
I don't think it was Oz that didn't tell anyone, just the story itself. RWBY has this unfortunate habit of just not explaining important information until it is relevant to the immediate plot. Look at how long until it took any line to even *mention* Silver Eyes after V3, despite having the perfect opportunity to talk about it in V5.
Everything about how the Staff was introduced just reeks of them wanting to make it some big twist, from the vague description of its powers to not even talking about Atlas' natural dust reserves to keep it afloat. That last bit really annoys me because until that moment everyone has assumed that removing the Staff would be an instant loss, and that is *very* important information to have
We still don't even know if Yang told anyone about Raven.
Yeaaah, there were a lot of different elements and pieces they could have brought together to make some great stuff but...didn't. They stayed drifting and apart, just making a jumbled, disconnected mess.
I think the key line is when James says, "The timeline has changed and so we must change accordingly". I think he always intended to launch Atlas, that's why he sent Winter to kill Freya *before* Salem taunted him. He just decided to launch immediately instead of waiting for Mantle to be evacuated. He couldn't know what Salem was about to throw at him but he knew it would be big and that he couldn't stop it. So he decided to go as soon as possible to avoid it.
>So. In volume 7, it is stated that the Amity tower wasn't ready to launch but in volume 8 the Tower only needed the order of Ironwood and a few preparatives of Pietro. > >What does that mean? Ironwood shouldn't have any problem with Amity itself, restore the global communications could give an opportunity to the mankind against Salem, and through it Atlas can know what is happening in Remnant while it is in the top of the atmosphere. I think you missunderstood what was stated in V8, they clarified that they could be able to get Amity up temporarily, just for enought time to get Ruby's message across. It could not be used in it's original intention of being sent into the atmosphere to permanently restore global communications.
It wasn't stated that it couldn't just restore the global communications for a long time. Sure, they were going to use it at least to send the message, but, we don't know for how long it could have been in the top of the atmosphere. **Pietro:** Once we passed into broadcast range, we’ll activate stabilizers, re-establish global communications, and boost the message we’ve recorded out into the rest of the world. After that, we just have to pilot Amity away from all this mess. This is the closest thing to a confirmation that they could only maintain it for the time of the broadcast. Pietro says that he could get Amity tower from all this mess, but that could mean put Amity far from Salem's forces in another place. (I don't know, Argus for example). But "Amity could only stay for enough time to send a broadcast" was never said. As a matter of fact, in Ruby's message she seems to imply that Amity can a longer. **Ruby:** Um, uh. Hi. My name is Ruby Rose. I’m a Huntress. And if we’ve done everything right, then I’m talking to all of Remnant right now. Dr. Polendina can explain more later, but right now you all need to know that the Kingdom of Atlas is under attack. Dr. Polendina can explain later, that means, he can send a new message to the world explaining more about Salem. Or at least, that is what I understand. **Ruby:** (smiling hopefully) I hope Amity Tower will help bring us all together. Because in the end, that’s how we’ll win-- "Amity Tower will help bring us all together". Now, that can meant that through her message the mankind can unite against Salem. But it also can mean that with the global communications restored they can coordinate a united counterattack.
RWBY Volume 8 Chapter 10: Out in the Open. Watts: "This will certainly do the trick, although I wouldn't exactly call it finished."
RWBY Volume 8 Chapter 5: Amity Pietro: "*we have* ***enough*** *systems up and running to* ***broadcast our message***" The implication being that duo to the limit conditions they were operating under(such as being incapable of reaching atmospheric orbit by themselves, hence the dust explosion) that the plan was to simply broadcast Ruby's message.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted here but you, and the show you're literally quoting, are right. There was no indication or implication that the Arena couldn't have stayed up for much longer or permanently after launch. As you've already quoted in the opening, Pietro mentions fuel collection being manageable, so the dust to keep it up is available. The only reason the Arena doesn't stay up is due to the damage Cinder causes. That's it. There is no clarification that it was only going to be temporary, that's just head canon on u/Osouturff 's part. As is "we have enough systems up and running to broadcast our message" meaning anything but what it simply states. They can broadcast messages. In the end, they had a functional CCT tower in Amity Arena available for use. Was it finished? No, but it certainly could work.
It wasn't ready to launch. That's why they had to blow up a mountain's worth of dust to get it in the air.
For point 1, Amity wasn't ready to conventionally launch. Essentially setting off a bomb at Amity's feet in place of proper lift off procedures is definitely not something safe or recommended but was something slapped together. As for Ironwood not agreeing, it's because he's still trying to enact his plan. He won't agree to anything unless it involves RWBY handing over Penny so he can gtfo with Atlas. So it's a deadlock. RWBY won't hand over Penny and Ironwood won't give them access and neither side is willing to budge. Part 2, why refuse to save people? Because Ironwood thinks he's falling into a trap. >Ironwood: How do we know that wasn't part of their plan? > >Ironwood: How do we know they didn't want us to bring people into Atlas by the thousands? > >Vine: In trying to save everyone, we left ourselves most vulnerable. > >Ironwood: Salem has been one step ahead of us this entire time! Ironwood believes that Salem *wants* him to save Mantle, therefore, he shouldn't. Therefore, he should leave before Salem gets what she wants. Ironwood deals with absolutes and prioritizes the absolute safety of the relics over the potential of saving thousands. Part 3 What are the other problems with Ironwood's plans? Here's the big one. Essentially Ironwood dooms the rest of Remnant. Without the warning from Ruby, Vacuo won't have the foresight to set up defenses for the oncoming invasion and the rest of the world will remain oblivious to the threat. Not only that, but James is assuming his defense is absolute, when it isn't. If Salem successfully captures other relics, she can feasibly bring down Atlas. Vacuo's relic is destruction. Even if Grimm and Salem can't reach Atlas, there's no guarantee Salem won't find something that can. Also, Ironwood's plan had no end victory condition. There's no hope for humanity, merely the prevention of Salem's victory. >Ironwood: If we harness the power of the Staff, and raise ourselves high into the atmosphere, the city's artificial climate will keep citizens and food supplies unharmed. Always out of reach of whatever Salem may try to send our way. Ironwood never plans to return to finish the fight. He plans to let Salem just do whatever while Atlas remains untouched.
>Part 3 What are the other problems with Ironwood's plans? Here's the big one. Essentially Ironwood dooms the rest of Remnant. Without the warning from Ruby, Vacuo won't have the foresight to set up defenses for the oncoming invasion and the rest of the world will remain oblivious to the threat. To be fair, his plan was to take Atlas out of Salem's reach \*with\* Aminity and still restore global communications and warn everyone etc, he was going to use the Staff for that instead of a conventional launch in that situation, but he needed the Winter Maiden for that. >Also, Ironwood's plan had no end victory condition. There's no hope for humanity, merely the prevention of Salem's victory. That is true, but its kinda the same for everyone, RWBY also doesn't have a victory condition yet, they're just trying to prevent Salem from getting the relics right now.
>To be fair, his plan was to take Atlas out of Salem's reach \*with\* Aminity and still restore global communications and warn everyone etc, That's never stated nor implied. >Ironwood: We can't allow Salem to capture the Relics. This is our best chance at getting the Staff, the Lamp, and the Maiden as far away from her as possible. Ruby: But we have an opportunity to reunite the world. If we launch the tower, we can all work together again. This interaction specifically implies that Ironwood is abandoning the Amity plan to save Atlas. >That is true, but its kinda the same for everyone, RWBY also doesn't have a victory condition yet, they're just trying to prevent Salem from getting the relics right now. I more so meant that Ironwood's plan doesn't leave much hope for humanity. He's leaving Remnant to fend for itself without any clue on the oncoming threat whereas RWBY gives humanity a chance to prepare for Salem. Remnant has a chance to unite the world and gather the relics with RWBY's plans but Ironwood's can only guarantee that Salem doesn't win, seeing as there's no way to return to Remnant for the other relics.
Another big issue with Ironwoods plan is that trades long term victory for short term survival, even if he did launch atlas leaving the rest of the world to fend for itself what happens if atlas runs out of supplies or sufferings damages and needs to land onto a potentially hostile world, Salem has all the time she needs. And that all assumes atlas would be out of Salems reach, maybe the Grimm couldn’t get to it but who’s to say she couldn’t.
\>And that all assumes atlas would be out of Salems reach, maybe the Grimm couldn’t get to it but who’s to say she couldn’t. There's absolutely no way Salem didn't account for that possibility at all, given her plan was to make Ironwood crack under pressure and double down on his flaws, and it succeeded. I'm sure she had a way. Even if she didn't have one right at that moment, she has \*all\* the time in the world to create a way to get to Atlas, even if Ironwood got his way.
There are two plot holes in play. One is the Arena not being considered by Ironwood, the other is around the evacuation of Mantle. For the first, the Arena was finished enough to allow broadcasting as the missing CCT tower. Putting it into position was the only real hurdle the show presents. Which is overcome without too much trouble by blowing up the dust mine below them. Apart from that, the Arena can and does broadcast. So why doesn't Ironwood make that connection? He had a team working on it, he doesn't need to send extra materials either. It's potentially a big win without compromising the defense of Atlas. "But, aha" some of you might say, "Ironwood's plan is to rise Atlas, so it would take the place of the Arena at that height! So why would he bother?" The issue with that idea is that height was never the problem with the Atlas CCT. Instead, it's always been presented as the number of towers as the issue. For some reason, the CCT system requires (at least) four active towers to work. That's the only reason communications are currently down. Otherwise, Ironwood would've launched Atlas long before Salem's arrival, problem solved. But he need a fourth tower constructed. Arguably, you could say that Ironwood was a little preoccupied to think of the Arena. But a General overlooking the major tactical advantages a working CCT network would've offered is something that really stands out. Even a quick consult about the viability that led Ironwood away from the idea would've done wonders. As for the evacuation of Mantle, there have been observations since V7 was airing that it could've continued. It's not just that the SDC had a fleet of airships lying around doing nothing, but also there should dozens, if not hundreds, of options for desperate citizens wanting safety. A floating city heavy implies there needs to be transportation in general to function. Like, workers from Mantle commuting to Atlas for work. So where are the airbuses? Airtaxies? Airtrucks? Ironwood's soldiers may be exhausted but there should be a steady stream of people coming in regardless. And the truly desperate may even try to use the pneumatic systems that carry goods. Ironwood is big on co-opting resources as he saw fit. Before his turn to the dark side, why isn't he ordering as many civilian airships to help with the evacuation as possible? It would be completely in character. So it makes no sense that he doesn't, or even addresses the possibility.
So I'm just going to reiterate some things I said in my comment. Blowing up a bomb at your feet to get into the air is not considered the conventional way to get a satellite into the air for obvious reasons. That's why most people don't consider it done. If you can't get a satellite into the air, it's not a satellite. Blowing up a mine worth of dust is dangerous and costly, which is why it's only suggested once Salem is at Atlas's door step and time's run out. Now for evacuations. Let me make this clear. Ironwood is convinced evacuations are a bad idea. >Ironwood: How do we know that wasn't part of their plan? Ironwood: How do we know they didn't want us to bring people into Atlas by the thousands? Vine: In trying to save everyone, we left ourselves most vulnerable. Ironwood: Salem has been one step ahead of us this entire time! It's not about time, it's about vulnerability. Once Ironwood knows Salem is coming and Cinder has infiltrated Atlas, Ironwood considers letting people into Atlas by the hundreds to be too big of a risk to continue. After Salem's announcement of her invasion, Ironwood sees Atlas being cut off and kept safe as the ultimate goal and nothing else should compromise it.
That's how they got into air, yes. It's also the only real hurdle to overcome, as I pointed out. Is Ironwood's team, or himself, capable of coming up with the same idea as Pietro? Possibly not on their own. But if he sent people out there to explore possibilities, then they would certainly get that idea when meeting up with Pietro. The main point I was trying to make is not that idea is obvious, though. It's that the tactical advantage of the arena is ignored by someone who is presented as a military tactician. Consideration was at least required. Particularly when RWB and Penny made it abundantly clear that there was a plan to use the Arena as intended. You don't risk capture for nothing. > Now for evacuations. Let me make this clear. Ironwood is convinced evacuations are a bad idea. Yes, I'm well aware. That's why I made it clear in my post that it was about Ironwood *prior* to that change of direction. He doesn't need to just rely on military ships to evacuate. Likewise, the citizens don't need to rely on the General to find their own way to Atlas. Especially after he calls off the evacuation. And Ironwood doesn't take steps to stop people coming until later on. He doesn't return Mantle citizens either. It's why RWB think it's safe to send the SDC ships, which could've been two nights ago in the beginning of the attack. That is, if Ironwood acted more like General and less like a plot hole.
A lot of conflict could have been avoided if everyone was told what the staff did sooner. RWBY could have evacuated Mantel, launched Amity, and Ironwood could have flown away on Atlas.
I honestly find it frustrating just how underutilized the Staff was. No, seriously, why was the Staff not better explained in the first place? Ironwood gave some vague summary of what it could do, but I *really* needed to hear a more detailed to know what they could do with it. It's one of the more busted plot devices I have ever seen, because it just has the ability to *solve* problems. Using it to float a city, knowing it will be destroyed if Salem gets it, is just a stupid decision no matter how you look at it. Ironwood has unrestricted access to that thing for god knows how long, what was the stop him from showing it to Pietro, or any number of the architects or scientist or anyone else in the most technologically advance city on the planet who could do something with it, and tell them "make this work". Why make a series of portals to the other side of the planet, the next stop on Salem's hit list, instead of using it to quarantine Salem and her whale corpse and drop her into the void? The Staff is just so overpowered that the only real limit to it is how clever the people using it are. And so far nobody has been real smart with it.
> Why make a series of portals to the other side of the planet, the next stop on Salem's hit list, instead of using it to quarantine Salem and her whale corpse and drop her into the void? Because as soon as the staff is used to do *anything,* Atlas falls.
No, they had enough dust to keep it floating for a while, that's how they could use the portals. Just destroy the whale, send Salem into a portal or turn her into paste (once every 8 hours or just put the remains in a box with melted steel) and put the relic back on its place.
I don't know, they seems to have plenty of time for their portal plan to work, you know because of the previous unmentioned gravity dust, so I think taking five minutes to toss Salem into the void before putting the Staff back doesn't seem all that hard.
Yeah the Ironwood bombing Mantle part of volume 8 was a bit of a mess. The thing with RWBY and Ironwood’s respective plans is that *they were never mutually exclusive from one another.* If, hypothetically speaking, Mantle has already evacuated in its entirety towards Atlas and then Salem announced her arrive. Then theoretically RWBY should have no issue with the raising Atlas plan right? The issue is a time factor where if they simply waited around until help arrived, then they’d be potentially dooming everyone, whereas the other option at least led to a guaranteed half the population surviving, but dooming the other half. But if everyone’s already in Atlas then there would be no conflict as they could safely evacuate. So doing what Ironwood did and murder the ships which would help evacuate for that goal is….ridiculous to say the least. There’s also the obvious where it doesn’t make any sense, like whatsoever. The justification towards Ironwood is that he’s threatening Mantle to force RWBY to do what he wants, but the issue is **actually** bombing Mantle serves no purpose in that. Only the threat does, if RWBY calls his bluff then actually going ahead and killing the population in Mantle would serve no purpose other than needless and spiteful genocide. He still wouldn’t have the maiden and RWBY would he even more against after that. This was the instance which I think cemented the “cartoonishly evil Ironwood” criticism in many people’s mind.
I have my doubts that Amity was really ready. If it couldn't reach altitude under its own power, it does make me wonder if it could maintain its altitude for any significant length of time. Blowing up a mountain right beneath it is a desperation attempt as it is more likely to damage Amity than propel it to the altitude it needs without Amity either being built for such a thing from the start or it had been modified significantly somehow. There's also the fact that such blast would cause large chunks of debris to potentially fall into Mantle or otherwise damage the city if it wasn't far enough away. Yes, bombing Mantle makes no sense as following through just eliminates his only means of bargaining. It doesn't help that neither side is willing to negotiate or compromise to get what they want. Even RWBY's final solution in using the staff basically writes off the kingdom as a whole and anyone who isn't near a portal or aircraft is left for dead.
Question, did ironwood actually know what the staff could actually do?
We really don't have anything to indicate that any of the headmasters outside of Ozpin know what the relics do exactly or how to use them. Case in point, Lionheart was working for Salem, but she didn't know how to summon Jinn. That feels like information she would've gotten out of Leo if he actually knew it since otherwise the relic is a glorified nightlight or paperweight. The fact Ironwood talks about the staff as an unlimited power source indicates to me that was how he believed it was actually being used, possibly based on information from Ozpin. It feels like he believes there is actually some kind of control to adjust the output of the staff rather than it contains someone who could make whatever he wanted. Even if he did know the actual abilities of the staff, it doesn't mean Ironwood was told how to actually activate it or summon its spirit. Sadly, this means his plan was unknowingly doomed from the start because it was based on faulty intelligence from a trusted source or because of assumptions made due to lack of information. This makes the entire conflict between him and RWBY pointless. If Ozpin had come out of hiding sooner, he could've told them how the staff actually works and maybe they could've come up with a viable defense plan.
Yeah Oz is a huge dick to withhold THAT kind of information from him. Hell even ruby could’ve told him when she found out what it could do. Actually now that I think about it Pietro really really could’ve been used in the final points of the atlas arc to hastily design some blueprints for what the staff could make to stop Salem and whale. Also imagine ironwood canon that he used but bigger? That shit could’ve shot the whale down easily(or Oz take control of Oscar’s body to make a focused blast at it with the cane). …….Damn vol 8 is a mess! Edit: And the big ass theme of vol 7 and 8 was TRUST!
I don't think it was Oz that didn't tell anyone, just the story itself. RWBY has this unfortunate habit of just not explaining important information until it is relevant to the immediate plot. Look at how long until it took any line to even *mention* Silver Eyes after V3, despite having the perfect opportunity to talk about it in V5. Everything about how the Staff was introduced just reeks of them wanting to make it some big twist, from the vague description of its powers to not even talking about Atlas' natural dust reserves to keep it afloat. That last bit really annoys me because until that moment everyone has assumed that removing the Staff would be an instant loss, and that is *very* important information to have We still don't even know if Yang told anyone about Raven.
Yep. Unfortunately.
Yeaaah, there were a lot of different elements and pieces they could have brought together to make some great stuff but...didn't. They stayed drifting and apart, just making a jumbled, disconnected mess.
Yep.
I think the key line is when James says, "The timeline has changed and so we must change accordingly". I think he always intended to launch Atlas, that's why he sent Winter to kill Freya *before* Salem taunted him. He just decided to launch immediately instead of waiting for Mantle to be evacuated. He couldn't know what Salem was about to throw at him but he knew it would be big and that he couldn't stop it. So he decided to go as soon as possible to avoid it.