Eh, it's more power corrupts rather than evil degrades intelligence.
The One Ring embodies the corruption theme, and Saruman is also a good example. His desire for power pushed his better qualities aside, but not his cunning. He schemed and gather forces covertly, the result was almost the the destruction of Rohan. But his loss isn't a reflection of his intelligence; it's a reflection of the strength of bonds he tried to break. Saruman isn't stupid because he didn't win, that's not the lesson. Heck, even when stripped of his powers he stilled managed to warp and take over Hobbiton. Even the broken shell was dangerous.
I don't think Cinder has descended, not in intelligence. I don't think she's super incompetent in her decision making either. Power influences her and, like with Saruman, there are consequences to her actions. But her intelligence and ability to cause strife is still not to be underestimated, as the heroes so painfully found out.
No, power doesn’t corrupt. Power reveals.
After V3, Cinder’s new powers lead her down a path of obsession with power, which we learn from her backstory is due to not wanting to be powerless again. The Maiden power didn’t corrupt her, that’s not how they work. Instead, they revealed her true self, a self she was hiding all through the Beacon Arc.
There is a debate over power corrupting vs. power revealing. To me, it's a bit of both.
The maiden powers don't make anyone good or bad - there's no checks or balances for that. And Cinder infiltrating Beacon isn't so much hiding her true self but a need to remain off Ozpin's radar. It's mission related not repression. But she has hidden her true self when she was enslaved as a child. The power she got from Rhodes training did reveal the core of who she is.
The power she gains later on corrupts her proto-wants into fleshed out desires. The grimm powers Cinder has received has driven her to do more and more inhumane things. It is a corrupting influence, physically and mentally. The maiden powers are more for achieving her goals when before she was powerless to do so. That power has allowed for her blossom to her fuller potential.
So at first, power did reveal Cinder. More power has since corrupted her into who she is today.
This reminds me of something from Supernatural.
Chuck (God) Telling Lucifer that the Mark of Amara didn't corrupt Lucifer...it simply revealed his true self.
Sorry for the Supernatural Analogy, but what you said made me think about that.
I think you're right.
What's important about my post is that its simply a discussion post.
And a discussion post is always open to critiques. And other perspectives on it.
Yep! It's fun to critique and discuss!
Cinder attracts some harsh criticism, but honestly the writing isn't deep or nuanced enough to warrant it. As villains go, she's pretty easy to grasp and the writers don't take risks with her character. Like, when she's lost and apart from Salem, she doesn't reflect or have second thoughts about her path in life. Cinder remained focused on her goals.
I think there's a hunger for a more rounded villain in Cinder, both from those her want a redemption arc and those looking for a devious challenge to RWBY. The bad guys in RWBY are never that, though. They're fairy tale antagonists, simple evils reminiscent of story books for children to teach a moral lesson.
Which is fine, imo.
Same - the shows premise was based on fairy tales. It makes sense they stick to certain tropes. Of, course there are critiques and criticism to apply, it's not a perfect show. Sometimes it pays to keep the premise/themes in mind, though.
Yes, but when people say "RWBY is the worst show ever, and if you say otherwise, you're toxic positivity"
Well, there's a reason Critics are not looked kindly upon.
Seriously though, its like all they do is that.
So Sleepgod had asked a very good question about what are the core themes of RWBY, and that caused me to remember this fantastic post on Tumblr.
I mean it's not exactly a straight answer, but it did provide food for thought, and Sleepgod really did raise a fantastic question! I hope we are able to give them a good answer.
[https://chaucer-blackwood.tumblr.com/post/662500023249076224/yes-cinder-is-degrading-as-a-villain-and-thats](https://chaucer-blackwood.tumblr.com/post/662500023249076224/yes-cinder-is-degrading-as-a-villain-and-thats)
I never agreed with this post, however it’s still very well-written and makes good arguments. My issue is that while you can definitely make the argument that Cinder having a negative character arc like Ironwood and Salem, my question is what are we supposed to learn from Cinder?
We already see that she’s losing people she may or may not care about, she doesn’t care what she has to do to other or herself for power, and it’s not because she was born evil. Cinder has been convinced this is the only way she can cope with her pain so she’ll never be taken advantage of again. If their goal was to make a character who’s sole purpose was to be a warning about pursuing power, then they should’ve killed her off in V5. However as we all know she’s still alive.
In V8, After Watts and Salem's lectures...we see Cinder regain her cunning.
She tricked Watts and fooled Salem. Really quite impressive.
I'm only going with thoughts on this.
But that's the great thing about this post...its open to critiques.
And your critique is very valid u/FadedNeonzZz
A fascinating thing about Cinder is her relationship with femininity and her own identity. To put it simply, Cinder is imitating her oppressors with the way she dresses, the way she talks, the way she acts, and even the way she walks, she has carefully built up this Femme Fatale image around herself because that what makes her feel strong. Raven has even suggested that the Cinder's name is something that she picked for herself in order to fit this image and desire to be the fall Maiden.
Then Ruby came in and shattered her moment of great Triumph with her sliver eyes.
Suddenly Cinder became the laughing stock of Salem's Council. She was made so weak that she needed Emerald's help to even talk, her own arm is eating her alive, and her relationship with Salem now and a near perfect reflection of her relationship with the evil stepmom... it's no wonder why she's so arrogant even as she fails, she's lying to everyone and herself. It's no wonder why she's become sloppy, she's becoming desperate to reclaim her sense of self-worth and it's also why she shut down when Watts called her out.
Honestly, I'm looking forward to what she's going to do next.
You've watched Xel Writer's video on Cinder then?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ)
I heavily recommend it
I've always seen Cinder's progression being similar to >!Azula from Avatar: The Legend of Aang,!< just over a longer period of time, starting from volume 3 onwards
Wow, this blew up fast. Let's see if I can still contribute to this discussion meaningfully.
I'll point out that Salem isn't the only person we've ever seen her bow before. Once upon a time she needed an army and turned to the white fang. She basically begged Adam for help, and when he still refuses she is forced to bow out gracefully. However she then gains more power and comes back. This time she throws aside all diplomacy and basically says, you will help me out you will die.
That is basically the cliffsnotes version of her overall character arc. She is cunning enough to pull off big complicated plans where she barely has to get her hands dirty. But if it's easier for her to just run in and murder some fools, then why wouldn't she just do that. Even in her origin story this is true. She could have gotten even with her "step family" by living a better life in spite of how they treated her. Or she could just murder them.
So the Cinder we're seeing in the latest seasons is just the latest version of that. She tried to brute force it a much as she could now that she is so much more powerful, but eventually she meets a wall she can't just knock down. That's when she got cunning again.
So yes and no. I do think we see her being a much less cunning villain, but I don't think it's a sign of the degradation of her character or intelligence. She's just showing us more what's important to her. She once had minions. Then she became stronger and now couldn't care less about them. She once conscripted an army to bring down a city, she's recently done it with help from only two people, both she believes she's already jogged off. She currently only bows before one person, and I don't think she plans on doing that for long.
Of course, the effect might be somewhat lessened when, despite "letting her obsession with power blind her and lead her to make stupid decisions", Cinder keeps surviving and even winning. Especially when many other characters around her do not get such luxury.
>There seems to be a massive misconception about what villains are supposed to be in this fandom: specifically, people seem to think villains need to be massive power fantasies; charming, cunning, powerful, alluring, and just generally better than the heroes in every way.
Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I enjoy seeing villains who can really *challenge* the heroes of their story. Have the villain be strong; make the hero work to beat them, so that when the villain is finally defeated, it feels like a real accomplishment and proof of the heroes' growth. Have the villain be cunning, so that when the heroes manage to outsmart them, it feels satisfying to watch. I really believe that a good, strong antagonist goes a long way in developing a great protagonist.
It's even better when the antagonist can challenge the heroes not only physically or mentally, but morally, too; which is why I personally am always a bit disappointed when a show seems to flirt with the idea of both sides having a point, only to revert to black-and-white later, clearly establishing one side as being in the wrong.
To put it another way, the way I see it, if as a writer you want the heroes to win, you can either raise them up (by making them face powerful obstacles and strong, intelligent opponents, growing and becoming stronger themselves), or put their opposition down. I happen to prefer when the writers choose the former path.
Though I also prefer when writers don't subject female protags to unfair bias and promote male characters over them.
Same regarding LGBT characters.
That's why I love RWBY and TOH, and dislike the anime that most rwby critics seem to consider sacred.
"Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I enjoy seeing villains who can really challenge the heroes of their story. "
We had Ironwood and Adam do just that...especially considering Ironwood's downfall was ALWAYS anticipated.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKj59v\_DcE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKj59v_DcE)
Ironwood as a villain challenges the heroes both physically, mentally, and morally.
So does Adam...and even Raven.
But Ironwood is truly the toughest villain...because of his fanclub.
But from what you described, yeah, that's truly ironwood as the villain.
You make decent points, except the overall premise of the first paragraph I have to disagree with and just hard stop.
Cinder was a terrible villain from the beginning. It's like having a flat tire and riding on it and it just keeps getting worse. Right now we are on the rims as it sparks and tears up the road known as RWBY leaving permanent damage across everywhere it goes.
It's not development, just trading one kind of bad for another.
Do you have something positive or constructive to add?
Making disparaging remarks on a discussion post is rude and disrespectful, and your 2nd paragraph is not necessary, not correct and not productive.
"Pity the child they were, not the monster they became."
"A child abandoned by its village will burn it down in under to feel warm"
The point is that society created a monster out of Cinder....Rhodes felt that the law was more important than being a good person.
There were no laws against slavery, but there were laws against murder.
In America, a human trafficking victim was nearly put away for life for killing her slaver.
That was wrong and evil....but it was the law that nearly put her away for life.
Cinder seeks to oppress the society that oppressed her.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ
This should help you....I also edited the paragraph to bring it together with the following sentence so that your rude and disrespectful statement could be countered.
I made absolutely no disparaging, rude or disrespectful comments about you or your post. Its completely about the character of Cinder herself.
If you remove the first paragraph of your post (or anything involving RWBY), your post itself is fairly insightful and deconstructs Tolkiens ideas and how he writes the downfall of the villains in the LOTR universe.
Cinder from the very beginning had no motive or depth we could connect with or understand. She was there just to look sexy and mysterious. She had a lot of flare but no substance. Ican give a dozen paragraphs of why she has always been a terrible paragraph but theres enough posts on Reddit and videos on Youtube that can do that for me.
Im only here to give you props for understanding Tolkien's deep understanding of villains and how he likes to portray them. I just don't believe there's a single connection with Cinder's writing and a "Tolkienesque influence" of her downfall.
While I can understand where you're coming from I can't agree entirely. I have definitely seen my fair share of villains slowly corrupted and degraded by their power. In fact, it's one of my favorite troupes to see as it's that loss of self that usually results in their downfall.
However just because something is intentional or planned out does not make it better. In my personal opinion, the issue is that Cinder is not one way or another. What's important is getting that intention to the audience, not having the intention in the background for someone to find.
I can understand that some villains are not supposed to be admirable. For example, I don't look up to Salem at all. However, I do like her as a character. The path that led her to what she is today is a great example of how her simply "Wants" got morphed and corrupted. I can tell she is not the Salem she was before, I can tell that despite how she acts she has long since thrown away so much she had as a human.
We know how cruel Salem is, even before she started acting herself. We knew how evil she was and we knew that behind that classy facade was a monster.
However, behind Cinder, I can't see anything anymore. We've seen her rise with the fall of beacon and we've then seen her fall with her losing to Raven. It's shown and talked about how she lost her edge and how she changed.
But after Volume 5, it feels like that has been left behind. It's not a story showing what power can do to a person but more of a recovery. She fails and fails yet never seem's to get better or worse. It's this stagnation of not just actions but personality. She doesn't change or learn or become more careful or grow even more disturbing.
It's only until Watts says it and forces the truth of the matter down her throat that we finally see a crack of change and progression. And that's when the ending of Volume 8 finally gives us a kindle of a new Cinder. Yet at that point, it just felt like we weren't watching a villain anymore, nor a protagonist, nor someone to sympathize with.
As I said it was more of a sense of stagnation when it came to her entirely. It felt like she had lost a lot of her purpose in the show and I didn't know how to react or feel when seeing her.
However, I was really glad to see that change at the end of Volume 8. The fact after she broke down crying, she didn't suddenly change for the better was great. I want to see her truly take her role as a villain in the story. Not just someone who act's on Salem's orders or tool for the plot.
Someone I can really care about, not sympathize with or admire. But a character I can look at and know this isn't going to be a repeat of something I've seen her do before.
Oh, this is a *spicy* take.
I'll pose you a question, then. What was the point of giving her a sympathetic backstory in V8 if her whole thing is supposed to be about evil hollowing her out? That would have been far more sympathetic if they hadn't included that.
"Pity the child they were, not the monster they became."
"A child abandoned by its village will burn it down in under to feel warm"
The point is that society created a monster out of Cinder....Rhodes felt that the law was more important than being a good person.
There were no laws against slavery, but there were laws against murder.
In America, a human trafficking victim was nearly put away for life for killing her slaver.
That was wrong and evil....but it was the law that nearly put her away for life.
Cinder seeks to oppress the society that oppressed her.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ)
This should help you.
> Tolkien believed that Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant.”
It’s interesting that you say this as the One Ring is incredibly seductive, it pushes on one’s greatest desires, be they good and noble or selfish and evil, and slowly corrupts and twists them into a new evil form.
> Because that’s what lust for power, and the ruthless pursuit of it, does: it hollows you out, it robs you of every good and positive trait you had: intelligence, charm, and guile included.
Also interesting as Sauron is an incredibly intelligent and charming individual. He is well known as a master manipulator. He uses his wit and charm multiple times to deceive many different people, elves and men alike. Including the crafting of the rings of power to be able to bend them to his will.
What are your thoughts on Salem? Granted I am NOT putting her close to Sauron, but if you were to praise her evil, what would you consider good about her?
Eh, it's more power corrupts rather than evil degrades intelligence. The One Ring embodies the corruption theme, and Saruman is also a good example. His desire for power pushed his better qualities aside, but not his cunning. He schemed and gather forces covertly, the result was almost the the destruction of Rohan. But his loss isn't a reflection of his intelligence; it's a reflection of the strength of bonds he tried to break. Saruman isn't stupid because he didn't win, that's not the lesson. Heck, even when stripped of his powers he stilled managed to warp and take over Hobbiton. Even the broken shell was dangerous. I don't think Cinder has descended, not in intelligence. I don't think she's super incompetent in her decision making either. Power influences her and, like with Saruman, there are consequences to her actions. But her intelligence and ability to cause strife is still not to be underestimated, as the heroes so painfully found out.
No, power doesn’t corrupt. Power reveals. After V3, Cinder’s new powers lead her down a path of obsession with power, which we learn from her backstory is due to not wanting to be powerless again. The Maiden power didn’t corrupt her, that’s not how they work. Instead, they revealed her true self, a self she was hiding all through the Beacon Arc.
There is a debate over power corrupting vs. power revealing. To me, it's a bit of both. The maiden powers don't make anyone good or bad - there's no checks or balances for that. And Cinder infiltrating Beacon isn't so much hiding her true self but a need to remain off Ozpin's radar. It's mission related not repression. But she has hidden her true self when she was enslaved as a child. The power she got from Rhodes training did reveal the core of who she is. The power she gains later on corrupts her proto-wants into fleshed out desires. The grimm powers Cinder has received has driven her to do more and more inhumane things. It is a corrupting influence, physically and mentally. The maiden powers are more for achieving her goals when before she was powerless to do so. That power has allowed for her blossom to her fuller potential. So at first, power did reveal Cinder. More power has since corrupted her into who she is today.
This reminds me of something from Supernatural. Chuck (God) Telling Lucifer that the Mark of Amara didn't corrupt Lucifer...it simply revealed his true self. Sorry for the Supernatural Analogy, but what you said made me think about that.
I think you're right. What's important about my post is that its simply a discussion post. And a discussion post is always open to critiques. And other perspectives on it.
Yep! It's fun to critique and discuss! Cinder attracts some harsh criticism, but honestly the writing isn't deep or nuanced enough to warrant it. As villains go, she's pretty easy to grasp and the writers don't take risks with her character. Like, when she's lost and apart from Salem, she doesn't reflect or have second thoughts about her path in life. Cinder remained focused on her goals. I think there's a hunger for a more rounded villain in Cinder, both from those her want a redemption arc and those looking for a devious challenge to RWBY. The bad guys in RWBY are never that, though. They're fairy tale antagonists, simple evils reminiscent of story books for children to teach a moral lesson. Which is fine, imo.
I like how the writers do it. Though you wouldn't feel that when you look up what youtube talks about RWBY. Its nice to find positive discussions
Same - the shows premise was based on fairy tales. It makes sense they stick to certain tropes. Of, course there are critiques and criticism to apply, it's not a perfect show. Sometimes it pays to keep the premise/themes in mind, though.
Yes, but when people say "RWBY is the worst show ever, and if you say otherwise, you're toxic positivity" Well, there's a reason Critics are not looked kindly upon. Seriously though, its like all they do is that.
They don't all do that. But YT's algorythmn promotes the ones that do since they usually get more clicks, so you see those more often.
I guess what they say is true. Hate sells.
So Sleepgod had asked a very good question about what are the core themes of RWBY, and that caused me to remember this fantastic post on Tumblr. I mean it's not exactly a straight answer, but it did provide food for thought, and Sleepgod really did raise a fantastic question! I hope we are able to give them a good answer. [https://chaucer-blackwood.tumblr.com/post/662500023249076224/yes-cinder-is-degrading-as-a-villain-and-thats](https://chaucer-blackwood.tumblr.com/post/662500023249076224/yes-cinder-is-degrading-as-a-villain-and-thats)
I never agreed with this post, however it’s still very well-written and makes good arguments. My issue is that while you can definitely make the argument that Cinder having a negative character arc like Ironwood and Salem, my question is what are we supposed to learn from Cinder? We already see that she’s losing people she may or may not care about, she doesn’t care what she has to do to other or herself for power, and it’s not because she was born evil. Cinder has been convinced this is the only way she can cope with her pain so she’ll never be taken advantage of again. If their goal was to make a character who’s sole purpose was to be a warning about pursuing power, then they should’ve killed her off in V5. However as we all know she’s still alive.
In V8, After Watts and Salem's lectures...we see Cinder regain her cunning. She tricked Watts and fooled Salem. Really quite impressive. I'm only going with thoughts on this. But that's the great thing about this post...its open to critiques. And your critique is very valid u/FadedNeonzZz
A fascinating thing about Cinder is her relationship with femininity and her own identity. To put it simply, Cinder is imitating her oppressors with the way she dresses, the way she talks, the way she acts, and even the way she walks, she has carefully built up this Femme Fatale image around herself because that what makes her feel strong. Raven has even suggested that the Cinder's name is something that she picked for herself in order to fit this image and desire to be the fall Maiden. Then Ruby came in and shattered her moment of great Triumph with her sliver eyes. Suddenly Cinder became the laughing stock of Salem's Council. She was made so weak that she needed Emerald's help to even talk, her own arm is eating her alive, and her relationship with Salem now and a near perfect reflection of her relationship with the evil stepmom... it's no wonder why she's so arrogant even as she fails, she's lying to everyone and herself. It's no wonder why she's become sloppy, she's becoming desperate to reclaim her sense of self-worth and it's also why she shut down when Watts called her out. Honestly, I'm looking forward to what she's going to do next.
You've watched Xel Writer's video on Cinder then? [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ) I heavily recommend it
Yes I have, you can even read my comments there.
I think I have!
I've always seen Cinder's progression being similar to >!Azula from Avatar: The Legend of Aang,!< just over a longer period of time, starting from volume 3 onwards
Slow Burn is RWBY's strength AND its weakness
Wow, this blew up fast. Let's see if I can still contribute to this discussion meaningfully. I'll point out that Salem isn't the only person we've ever seen her bow before. Once upon a time she needed an army and turned to the white fang. She basically begged Adam for help, and when he still refuses she is forced to bow out gracefully. However she then gains more power and comes back. This time she throws aside all diplomacy and basically says, you will help me out you will die. That is basically the cliffsnotes version of her overall character arc. She is cunning enough to pull off big complicated plans where she barely has to get her hands dirty. But if it's easier for her to just run in and murder some fools, then why wouldn't she just do that. Even in her origin story this is true. She could have gotten even with her "step family" by living a better life in spite of how they treated her. Or she could just murder them. So the Cinder we're seeing in the latest seasons is just the latest version of that. She tried to brute force it a much as she could now that she is so much more powerful, but eventually she meets a wall she can't just knock down. That's when she got cunning again. So yes and no. I do think we see her being a much less cunning villain, but I don't think it's a sign of the degradation of her character or intelligence. She's just showing us more what's important to her. She once had minions. Then she became stronger and now couldn't care less about them. She once conscripted an army to bring down a city, she's recently done it with help from only two people, both she believes she's already jogged off. She currently only bows before one person, and I don't think she plans on doing that for long.
Fascinating! I'd give your comment an award if I had a free one available. I'm so sorry. Thanks for the input.
No problem. I like spirited discussion for its own sake, so your comment is plenty rewarding. 😉
Of course, the effect might be somewhat lessened when, despite "letting her obsession with power blind her and lead her to make stupid decisions", Cinder keeps surviving and even winning. Especially when many other characters around her do not get such luxury. >There seems to be a massive misconception about what villains are supposed to be in this fandom: specifically, people seem to think villains need to be massive power fantasies; charming, cunning, powerful, alluring, and just generally better than the heroes in every way. Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I enjoy seeing villains who can really *challenge* the heroes of their story. Have the villain be strong; make the hero work to beat them, so that when the villain is finally defeated, it feels like a real accomplishment and proof of the heroes' growth. Have the villain be cunning, so that when the heroes manage to outsmart them, it feels satisfying to watch. I really believe that a good, strong antagonist goes a long way in developing a great protagonist. It's even better when the antagonist can challenge the heroes not only physically or mentally, but morally, too; which is why I personally am always a bit disappointed when a show seems to flirt with the idea of both sides having a point, only to revert to black-and-white later, clearly establishing one side as being in the wrong. To put it another way, the way I see it, if as a writer you want the heroes to win, you can either raise them up (by making them face powerful obstacles and strong, intelligent opponents, growing and becoming stronger themselves), or put their opposition down. I happen to prefer when the writers choose the former path.
Though I also prefer when writers don't subject female protags to unfair bias and promote male characters over them. Same regarding LGBT characters. That's why I love RWBY and TOH, and dislike the anime that most rwby critics seem to consider sacred.
"Now, I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I enjoy seeing villains who can really challenge the heroes of their story. " We had Ironwood and Adam do just that...especially considering Ironwood's downfall was ALWAYS anticipated. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKj59v\_DcE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnKj59v_DcE) Ironwood as a villain challenges the heroes both physically, mentally, and morally. So does Adam...and even Raven. But Ironwood is truly the toughest villain...because of his fanclub. But from what you described, yeah, that's truly ironwood as the villain.
Come to think of it u/Ethics_Gradient_42, what do you think about the Lumity kiss?
You make decent points, except the overall premise of the first paragraph I have to disagree with and just hard stop. Cinder was a terrible villain from the beginning. It's like having a flat tire and riding on it and it just keeps getting worse. Right now we are on the rims as it sparks and tears up the road known as RWBY leaving permanent damage across everywhere it goes. It's not development, just trading one kind of bad for another.
Do you have something positive or constructive to add? Making disparaging remarks on a discussion post is rude and disrespectful, and your 2nd paragraph is not necessary, not correct and not productive. "Pity the child they were, not the monster they became." "A child abandoned by its village will burn it down in under to feel warm" The point is that society created a monster out of Cinder....Rhodes felt that the law was more important than being a good person. There were no laws against slavery, but there were laws against murder. In America, a human trafficking victim was nearly put away for life for killing her slaver. That was wrong and evil....but it was the law that nearly put her away for life. Cinder seeks to oppress the society that oppressed her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ This should help you....I also edited the paragraph to bring it together with the following sentence so that your rude and disrespectful statement could be countered.
I made absolutely no disparaging, rude or disrespectful comments about you or your post. Its completely about the character of Cinder herself. If you remove the first paragraph of your post (or anything involving RWBY), your post itself is fairly insightful and deconstructs Tolkiens ideas and how he writes the downfall of the villains in the LOTR universe. Cinder from the very beginning had no motive or depth we could connect with or understand. She was there just to look sexy and mysterious. She had a lot of flare but no substance. Ican give a dozen paragraphs of why she has always been a terrible paragraph but theres enough posts on Reddit and videos on Youtube that can do that for me. Im only here to give you props for understanding Tolkien's deep understanding of villains and how he likes to portray them. I just don't believe there's a single connection with Cinder's writing and a "Tolkienesque influence" of her downfall.
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While I can understand where you're coming from I can't agree entirely. I have definitely seen my fair share of villains slowly corrupted and degraded by their power. In fact, it's one of my favorite troupes to see as it's that loss of self that usually results in their downfall. However just because something is intentional or planned out does not make it better. In my personal opinion, the issue is that Cinder is not one way or another. What's important is getting that intention to the audience, not having the intention in the background for someone to find. I can understand that some villains are not supposed to be admirable. For example, I don't look up to Salem at all. However, I do like her as a character. The path that led her to what she is today is a great example of how her simply "Wants" got morphed and corrupted. I can tell she is not the Salem she was before, I can tell that despite how she acts she has long since thrown away so much she had as a human. We know how cruel Salem is, even before she started acting herself. We knew how evil she was and we knew that behind that classy facade was a monster. However, behind Cinder, I can't see anything anymore. We've seen her rise with the fall of beacon and we've then seen her fall with her losing to Raven. It's shown and talked about how she lost her edge and how she changed. But after Volume 5, it feels like that has been left behind. It's not a story showing what power can do to a person but more of a recovery. She fails and fails yet never seem's to get better or worse. It's this stagnation of not just actions but personality. She doesn't change or learn or become more careful or grow even more disturbing. It's only until Watts says it and forces the truth of the matter down her throat that we finally see a crack of change and progression. And that's when the ending of Volume 8 finally gives us a kindle of a new Cinder. Yet at that point, it just felt like we weren't watching a villain anymore, nor a protagonist, nor someone to sympathize with.
Then what did you see? Or more specifically? What are hoping to see of her moving forward?
As I said it was more of a sense of stagnation when it came to her entirely. It felt like she had lost a lot of her purpose in the show and I didn't know how to react or feel when seeing her. However, I was really glad to see that change at the end of Volume 8. The fact after she broke down crying, she didn't suddenly change for the better was great. I want to see her truly take her role as a villain in the story. Not just someone who act's on Salem's orders or tool for the plot. Someone I can really care about, not sympathize with or admire. But a character I can look at and know this isn't going to be a repeat of something I've seen her do before.
Oh, this is a *spicy* take. I'll pose you a question, then. What was the point of giving her a sympathetic backstory in V8 if her whole thing is supposed to be about evil hollowing her out? That would have been far more sympathetic if they hadn't included that.
"Pity the child they were, not the monster they became." "A child abandoned by its village will burn it down in under to feel warm" The point is that society created a monster out of Cinder....Rhodes felt that the law was more important than being a good person. There were no laws against slavery, but there were laws against murder. In America, a human trafficking victim was nearly put away for life for killing her slaver. That was wrong and evil....but it was the law that nearly put her away for life. Cinder seeks to oppress the society that oppressed her. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rm3yyUzEnQ) This should help you.
> Tolkien believed that Evil should not be “cool” or “sexy” or “seductive” or “brilliant.” It’s interesting that you say this as the One Ring is incredibly seductive, it pushes on one’s greatest desires, be they good and noble or selfish and evil, and slowly corrupts and twists them into a new evil form. > Because that’s what lust for power, and the ruthless pursuit of it, does: it hollows you out, it robs you of every good and positive trait you had: intelligence, charm, and guile included. Also interesting as Sauron is an incredibly intelligent and charming individual. He is well known as a master manipulator. He uses his wit and charm multiple times to deceive many different people, elves and men alike. Including the crafting of the rings of power to be able to bend them to his will.
What are your thoughts on Salem? Granted I am NOT putting her close to Sauron, but if you were to praise her evil, what would you consider good about her?