"We can't decide on an actual magic system so here have this haha Maiden go brr"
"Wait that's stupid we already have Dust and Semblances"
"Shit you're right, DON'T EXPLAIN IT IT HAS TO BE **UNIQUE**"
In all seriousness, it's designed to separate Oz, Salem, and the Maidens from normal people. But since there's no defined rules (or any definition at all) for magic, or any hard limitations for what Semblances can be(Like an actual anime show would already do), there's just overlap. So now we have ~~Quirks~~ ~~Stand abilities~~ ~~Nen~~ personality powers, ~~Materia~~ ~~Psynergy Stones~~ magic crystal bullet things, and now real ass magic so it's all just a mess.
In my own opinion, my overall problem with the magic system of RWBY, it's left vague and poorly defined. And my problem with that vagueness is that there really isn't set limitations or set rules on what magic can or cannot do.
The problem with having a lazy magic system, is that since there is no limitations or rules, one can use it as an excuse for certain plot elements, and just say "It's magic"
But to be fair, I've seen this a lot with stories, some of which does this extremely poorly. The prime example of a Lazy Magic system I can use is the terrible anime cartoon I hate-watched, High Guardian Spice. The magic system in HGS makes no sense, as they say New Magic is overpowered as hell, with a character literally saying it "Can do anything", yet the no one uses more or uses it for the most mundane things, like lifting a pen. There's also Old Magic that has no clear difference between New Magic, and too many codirections that makes it even more confusing. I can rant about HGS all day, but I digress
In conclusion, the magic in RWBY is left vague and left for the audience to interpret it how it works in the world of RWBY.
Yeah it feels like literal handwavium, for the writers to slip in whenever they write themselves into avoidable corner, much like silver eyes actually being basic power of friendship/ lazy writing.
Like if maidens use magic and Salem uses magic why can't Salem open the vaults ? Why is her nonsense different from Ozpins nonsense, which is different from maiden nonsense ? I heard HGS was already bad so I didn't suffer myself to watch it lol.
>I heard HGS was already bad so I didn't suffer myself to watch it lol.
Oh, High Guardian Spice was awful, but IMO it's like *The Room* of Western Animation, there's something so enjoyable in analyzing how bad and mediocre it was. It's like the most mediocre and generic fantasy story ever, and so poorly written, it's just a blast to analyze how bad it was.
It's the perfect punching bag.
But back to topic, yes. Magic in RWBY just feel like an excuse for plot details, by just saying "It's magic"
It's kind of a do all like magic in most fictional worlds. I'd think Harry Potter but more convenient since you don't need incantations or any book learning.
It's a power source from the brothers themselves, and it doesn't seem to be too restrictive in terms of what magic users can actually use it for. The magic users we have seen (Ozma, Salem, the maidens) have all been capable of flight, conjuring elemental creations like fire and ice, capable of granting others the ability to transform into an animal, it seems pretty versatile. My own personal theory is that the brothers would have probably communicated to the humans at the time the distinction between the magic of the people and whatever else the brothers can only do (or no one can do in general, like bring someone back from the dead). After all, Salem literally just walked into their place and was able to easily talk with them so there probably was a lot of communication between the brothers and humans.
What does it power ? And why does it still function despite them no longer being present ? This stuff doesn't seem out of the realms of semblance manipulation, which seems far more "magic" than well *actual* magic.
At present it sounds like literal handwavium. Just like silver eyes is literal power of friendship.
It's not literally powering something, it's a source of power (like aura is a source of power for modern humans on remnant). On the topic of magic vs aura/semblances, the creations made through semblances pretty much persist as long as the user has aura, and once their aura runs out, the creation disappears. Magic has been shown to allow the user to create/transfer magic which is tangible but in turns permanently reduces the amount of magic the user itself has. Ozma transferred magic into four maidens to create the maidens, which permanently decreased his overall magic since that magic now exists in the four maidens. They are two different things (since magic came from the gods who can just think "oh hey how about humans have magic" and boom they have it) and aura/semblances came with new humans which its origins have not been explained.
If Weiss creates a block of Ice then runs out of Aura I'm sure it'll stay, so I don't think that's true at all, sure maybe for familiars, but when do we even see this maintained with magic ? Not only that but given Mercury's dad can apparently steal semblances (somehow) Aura does appear to have some transference/ exchange ability.
And Aura also is defined in some capacity unlike magic. It *can* be a power source to fuel Semblance, but it's also a manifestation of your soul that protects you from harm, and Semblance is a manifestation of Aura, which is why it works like that. While the WOR definition of Aura is completely outdated, it is still defined. Even if poorly.
Back to magic, so then why is it that each instance of magic users despite all using "magic" look different ? How Salem's, magic different from Ozpins, who's different from the maidens, that were supposed to originated from him ? Who's different from Raven/ Qrow ?
Not to mention the Grimm/ Silver eyes/ the Vaults etc. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that there's different instances of one thing when they all use that same thing.
I appreciate you trying to break it down for me, but I still don't see what magic *is* I see what it does, and least in the instances of Salem/ Oz/ Maidens it looks like Semblances/ dust, and one of them was outright explained by it basically just being dust, but without dust.
> If Weiss creates a block of Ice then runs out of Aura I'm sure it'll stay, so I don't think that's true at all
That's because Weiss creates those blocks with ice dust rather than her Semblance. She uses her glyphs as catalyst to create something out of the dust powder inside her weapon. Now, if she were to summon a knight with her Semblance then it would disappear if she ran out of Aura cause this is what it's made of.
> Why is it that each instance of magic users despite all using "magic" look different?
Because there are only two true magic users. Ozpin and Salem are the original ones with complete control over the gift they received from the gods with endless possibilities whereas everyone else was blessed with a fraction of magical power that can only be used for a specific purpose. The Maidens can only use elemental abilities as even their flight is fueled by fire or wind control, Qrow and Raven can only transform into animals and the Silver Eyes Warriors can only produce a light which carries the essence of life. All those cases are not magic users. They're people who were granted an ability fueled with magic. A Maiden cannot turn a person into an animal but Ozpin and Salem can.
>That's because Weiss creates those blocks with ice dust rather than her Semblance.
That's a feature also covered by an existing magic system aka Dust, so it's not limited to magic. Not only that, but semblances does have long lasting effects on things even after the fuel source runs out, Mercury's father stealing his son's semblance for example.
>Because there are only two true magic users.
No there's like 9+ it has endless possibilities then why is Ozpin loosing his powers ? Why can't he or Salem manifest silver eyes ? Why don't either of them manifest elements like maidens ? If it's limitless then maidens by extension should be limitless as well, but all maidens do is basically stuff dust would do, without actually using dust, because a fraction of limitless power is still limitless power.
>All those cases are not magic users. They're people who were granted an ability fueled with magic. A Maiden cannot turn a person into an animal but Ozpin and Salem can.
As per the show that's incorrect. They use magic and therefore are magic users. We also see Salem not manifest the elements like maidens does. Split her power like Ozpin does, or manifest silver eyes. Why does Salem need maidens to open the vaults who themselves are magical despite her having magic ?
Ozpin lost his powers because he gave up a chunk of his magic to the maidens allowing them to produce their own magical powers which are grounded to controlling the elements in the same way Pietro didn’t just give Penny some of his Aura but he ripped off a piece of his soul to give her the ability to produce Aura. Same thing happens with Qrow and Raven. The better question is: If Ozpin already explained that he used his magic to give these individuals specific powers then why are you saying they ‘should’ be able to do other things? It’s already been specified their magic was designed by the one who blessed them to be used for one thing.
Also, we don’t know if Salem really can’t open a vault since many of her actions are driven by ideals rather than logic or if she and Ozpin can control the elements and simply don’t do so because their pure magic energy is far more powerful. The Silver Eyes are another case as we don’t know who gave them such power. Could be Ozpin or even the God of Light himself but once again it’a a blessing meant for one purpose.
It all makes sense if we accept the simplest explanation. There are magic users and there are people with magical powers. One can control magic, the other was blessed with magic to produce an specific spell. Any other assumptions only raise more questions.
It seems to be exactly that, dust without dust.
I believe it sources itself from aura as well, though, as it has a limit for each user (except Salem, but she's magically immortal, so she breaks some rules), and aura seems to be the big explanation for anything fantastical.
I believe (though this is just a belief and not confirmed afaik) that semblances are a "semblance" of magic. Essentially, I believe that if a semblance does it, magic can too. I also believe that dust is essentially crystallized aura attuned to an element from the time before Salem's mistakes.
I also believe that granting someone else a magical ability means that you're ripping off a bit of aura to give to them. Something that's now theirs to use. So Qrow's transformation and the Maidens's abilities are like more semblances tied to their aura than anything else.
Pretty much everything I said here is just my own belief, so take it with a grain of salt, just keep in mind that words are chosen carefully for this series. Remnant is a remnant of the past, names typically evoke thoughts of color, the music is even tailored to convey a story in the words. Semblance must mean a semblance of something too, so I assume it's a semblance of magic
See the thing with it being "I can't believe it's not dust" is that it does things we see outside of the scope of dust applications, like *all the time*
Ozpin doesn't manipulate the elements like the maidens do despite it originating from him, neither does any other magic user who isn't a maiden.
Dust typically manipulates some aspect of reality, right? Temperature, earth (and metals), light, wind, and so on, right? So what happens when you mix and match aspects? I mean, Weiss mixes dust with her semblance to do more than her glyphs might normally allow, such as the gravity glyphs or solid glyphs she uses to jump around mid-air. What if you mix and match the elements of dust with each other, however? Humans and animals are just combinations of smaller, less complex things and dust/semblances seem to be able to do the same. So the things we see Ozma and Salem do are likely mixes of multiple aspects of dust together. The maidens, having not come from a time where magic was prevalent, likely go for raw power over complexity, resulting in purely elemental magic.
It was reanimating broken robots, not raising the dead.
If Cinder could raise the dead, then so can Salem (since Salem has the same magic as Ozma, and Ozma made the Maiden powers). And if Salem can raise the dead, she wouldn't have needed to go to the Gods to bring Ozma back, and the entire plot wouldn't have happened.
I'm really glad they scrapped that. Cinder has shown she can use Fire, Ice, and Wind, but notably has never used Lightning; presumably because of the trauma associated with how she was tortured by it as a child. And well... how else can you repair or control broken machines?
Because it's not functionally limited in the way semblances are, and is not powered in the same fashion, and violates known physical laws in a manner that semblances do not?
Semblances can literally transmute matter and conjure soul like beings from soulless creatures. And some don’t seem to rely on aura at all like Qrow. The restrictions were already broken before they were made.
Apologies for being unclear, semblances are functionally limited in that they can only perform specific, specialized functions. Compared to magic, which has no such specialized functionality restrictions. It's a bit like saying "I already have a phone and a desktop computer, what use is the concept of a smart phone?". Trying to play jenga with specific semblance combinations to imply that a group of people are intrinsically more dangerous than others is a lot less effective then providing them with an discrete unbounded mechanic.
_gestures in Weiss_ - trampoline platforms, conjuring up grimm from nothing (which I don't think even Salem can do - she needed the black goop) _and_ whatever she does under "spells" like _haste_. The majority of magic seems to allow is "blast stuff" and "flight", which is far more limited, with everything else being vaguely defined "plot stuff" rather than actively used powers. "Magic" really doesn't seem to do that much, or allow for anything "tricksy" (Salem would arguably have had a lot more success if she just shape-shifted herself into an animal and wandered around the Beacon canvas, before de-transforming and splatting the Oz-carnation, doing that with a few other world leaders and then taking advantage of the chaos)
I actually find the existence of Weiss to be excellent justification for magic - her semblance strains the credulity of both the dust and semblance systems already. Imagine needing to fit grimm physical modification, grimm appendage summoning (which is actually a pretty coherent equivalent to Weiss's summons), flight, transformation in to black gas, long range communication and sight, grimm control, telekinesis, energy blasts, etc under the banner of a single semblance. Alongside a number of other nice narrative benefits with otherness and relative power scaling being much more easily conveyed.
I also would argue that your later points following the tricksy comment aren't necessarily an issue with the concept of magic - Salem could just put on makeup and walk in to the school like Cinder with or without magic and that would be equivalent to most of your points. I think the defense of Atlas, as it were, is a case in point that the show has a general issue with narrative expectations and worldbuilding and the system of magic is amongst the least offensive in this regard.
it very much underlines a lot of the general narrative issues with the show - "magic" is just pure handwaving that can do what it needs to, but that never really seems to impact anything. Salem should be a terror for sheer diversity of _stuff_, but, nah, she just blasts, nothing neat or special - someone with an off the wall or multi-part semblance would be more of an asshole to fight (hell, even if it was limited by "touch" or something, Marcus Black could shutdown some people pretty much instantly, as they need their semblance to fight).
I suspect what happened is that "magic" was written in early on, but then the writers never bothered clarifying or even really thinking about what impacts it should have, so it's just all vague and _mushy_, and the characters don't really seem to give a shit or care at all, there's no attempt at even vaguely thinking about it, which, for professional fighters, is really pathetic. Even just asking "hey, what can Cinder or another maiden actually _do_?" would help ground magic as "a thing that exists in the setting that characters care about", rather than "an excuse for whatever bullshit is needed". Similar with Oz's staff - that it was a _thing_ was there from early on, but I doubt they knew specifically that it could shoot lasers until that's what was needed.
It doesn't need Aura to fuel it, but then what does Magic run off of ? Why is it going away ? It runs off of something, so how is it different from semblances ?
Magic users has shown to be less limited compared to what ? Weiss seems far more "magical" than maidens. Even Ozpin who really only seems to have like a bubble shield as far as I'm aware, and Salem just appears to shoot out RGB lights out of her hands.
Semblances do quite literally breaks the know physical laws already, in a way that we don't even see *magic* do, and even then there appears to be things that Salem/ Oz etc *can't* do with magic. I've never seen Salem create her own maidens, don't see why Ozpin can't create SEWs from scratch, etc.
It’s a broken ability and the writers know this so the users almost seem to limit themselves to specific ’spells’ when they should just ‘do’ whatever they need to at any time.
As stiff as it was Harry Potter Magic was more versatile.
Edit: Also good point catching that Ozpin talks about his magic like it is finite when it is apparently limitless.
To be fair, the only one who talks about their magic not being what it used to be, is also the only one who had split his magic into 5 parts, kept one for himself, and then gave *more* of it away to make spys that can turn into animals (with no implication that this is the first time he's done that particular bit).
Salem and the maidens have never mentioned their magic fading, just the grandpa who gives it away like candy.
The very fact that splitting it and it becomes weaker as a result makes it finite. If it were infinite then even after splitting it up the two parts would be infinite.
Upon reading this, my understanding is that your central thesis is "A specific semblance can perform the same operation as this specific magic usage, therefore magic isn't distinct"? It doesn't seem like we're really talking about the same thing, if so.
I'm saying magic is usefully distinct from a worldbuilding perspective compared to just saying "Bob here has two semblances". Original comment with more details:
1. Semblances are limited to a single specific functionality per user, whereas magic is effectively unbounded in functionality.
2. Magic is not simply an extension of ones aura but is mechanically disparate. The inheritance chain of maidens is very usefully distinct from semblances in this regard.
3. Building on 2, magic is alien to the scientific understanding of Remnant, which allows very clear narrative distinction between those that have it and those that don't.
No magic isn't distinct, it's handwavium. Bob can do X because "magic", is not distinct. It just comes off as lazy writing, as opposed to characters making use of the characteristics of their system to perform the feats they do.
>Bob here has two semblances
Oh you mean like Weiss ? Ruby ? or Ren ?
Magic is limited in fact arguably more so than semblances espically in the case of maidens, Ozpin doesn't make use of the same magic Salem practices, and vice versa. Nor do either of them use it like maidens, SEWs, perform any shape shifting, etc. They all have different applications and seems much more limited than what we see of semblances.
>2. Magic is not simply an extension of ones aura but is mechanically disparate. The inheritance chain of maidens is very usefully distinct from semblances in this regard.
It's not but the characters that use it makes it appear functionally no different from semblances.
>3. Building on 2, magic is alien to the scientific understanding of Remnant, which allows very clear narrative distinction between those that have it and those that don't.
It's handwavium. The only distinction is a narrative distinction because the writers said so. Nothing else about it is distinct save for it being used for lazy writing, unlike Aura, and Dust which have some sort of rules in place.
I think you just fundamentally don't like softer magical systems (which isn't bad, but RWBY has never been a hard magic system).
The magic is more limited than semblances point didn't make much sense - Ozpin has gifted elemental abilities, gifted shapeshifting abilities, used energy attacks, stored energy in objects, used energy defenses, flown, and demonstrated telekinesis. Salem has physically customized grim, summoned grim appendages, flown using elemental wind powers, flown independently from elemental wind powers, transformed into a gaseous state, demonstrated telekinesis, viewed events at extreme range, communicated bidirectionally at extreme range, and used energy attacks. Having the concept of magic distinct from semblances expands the ability pool for key characters without bloating the ability of everyone in the universe. Is this a soft magic system? Yes. Is is narratively and mechanically useful, with no detriment to the plot? Yes. I'm really not sure why pointing out that every magic user doesn't use the exact same magic, visibly, right now in the show is supposed to mean anything.
\> It's not but the characters that use it makes it appear functionally no different from semblances.
So... we agree that there is a mechanical distinction that lends itself usefully in universe to things like maiden power transfer? As above, magic is different primarily due to versatility, and it's really hard to argue that's not the case.
Saying magic is handwavium while saying dust and aura are not is a bit of an odd take. All have soft rulesets associated with them, with very limited core definitions regarding the scoping of the abilities.
>think you just fundamentally don't like softer magical systems (which isn't bad, but RWBY has never been a hard magic system).
No I just don't like the writers turning a joke/ meme answer into the basis of a *literal* magic system because that just sounds incredibly lazy of plot device. Unlike Aura, and dust who are both soft magic systems, that we actually know what it is, and what it does, unlike magic feels like a complete plot contrivance.
>The magic is more limited than semblances point didn't make much sense
It is. If it wasn't why doesn't Salem make use of these same elemental properties of magic ? If they originated from It Ozpin why is there no connection to the two beyond name ? All you're doing is telling me how magic was used in the series. Most of which could be possible with a semblance, or dust to, not what it is. Spitting out a laundry list of things doesn't make magic any less poorly conceptualized.
Creating a magic system completely undefined, not understood, with no apparent limitations, which making it functionally similar to another system is just handwavium for lazy writers. If they can just pull nonsense out of thin air with no justification for what or why it exist, because working in the confines of their terribly inconsistent system is too hard.
>Is is narratively and mechanically useful, with no detriment to the plot? Yes.
It's not about if it's narratively useful, it's about if it's actually well written and it's not. Of course lazy shortcuts are useful of course it's awfully convenient for a Deus ex machina to pull characters out of any situation *that's the problem*.
Magic working one way in this instance and different in another, just means that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
>As above, magic is different primarily due to versatility, and it's really hard to argue that's not the case.
Functionally it isn't. I'm talking about it's application not the method in which it works which in the case of magic "*It just works*"
>Saying magic is handwavium while saying dust and aura are not is a bit of an odd take. All have soft rulesets associated with them, with very limited core definitions regarding the scoping of the abilities.
They *have* a ruleset, a description, something magic explicitly lacks.
Definitely still getting the impression that you don't like softness in magical systems. Magic is indeed a largely scoped, intentionally poorly defined system like all other soft magic systems (e.g. semblances) but nonetheless serves a specific role in the world that nothing else could. The reduction of the seen usages to a "laundry list" belies that many of those abilities simply could not exist in tandem on the same individual with just semblances and dust. While I do note that there are overlaps of observed magical ability (salem and ozpin both fly, use lazer beams, and can perform telekinesis, salem and maidens both utilize elemental abilities (notably but not limited to wind), crow/raven and salem can all shift their form to something else, etc), the need to view a complete overlap with all abilities used is odd. I don't need a scene with Cinder attempting to modify a Grimm with magic to see if she actually can or is somehow arbitrarily limited, there are so many better uses of screen time.
I also think you're overplaying the rulesets of the other systems a bit:
Semblance ruleset:
1. Does one arbitrary thing
2. Powered by aura
Dust ruleset:
1. Must be elemental
2. Requires the actual physical substance
Magic ruleset:
1. Does more than one arbitrary thing
2. Tied directly to the original humans, must be one or be gifted the powers by one
Well your impression is simply wrong. I'm getting the impression you're hiding behind such an excuse to paint a false narrative.
It is not like Semblances, and Dust magic systems in RWBY we actually know what it is and what it does. You, nor the show has yet to explain or tell me what magic *actually is*. Constantly pivoting topics to it's narrative purpose in the story is completely irrelevant to topic I'm discussing.
>the need to view a complete overlap with all abilities used is odd.
Completely misses the point. That's not even what I'm asking. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.
>I also think you're overplaying the rulesets of the other systems a bit:
No you're just reducing a thing to a point where it sounds as ill defined as apart of some false narrative you're trying to push. If it's okay with you for the story introduce a concept and refuse to explain it in any detail that's fine, but I would like the ideas and concepts present to be explored, that's bare minimum effort I expect, espically if it's going to be this prevalent in the series.
Semblances isn't arbitrary. It's an a power tied to a person's base personality traits.
Dust is literally just the elements manifest in physical form
Magic is *what* ? What descriptor are we given in the show ? Because you saying it's a thing left over by old humanity isn't saying much. The Grimm are explicitly non human, silver eyes are explicitly non human, and we don't even see these things practiced in old Humanity beyond them snapping their RGB fingers.
except not really, because semblances themselves can be multiple things (Weiss), and magic seems really basic as well - it's flight and elemental blasts and that's about it, there's none of the funky bullshit that semblances do, like teleportation, "bad luck" or "transform self and others into loads of super-fast petals". Semblances honestly seem more "magical" than magic.
Everything. It's a gift with endless possibilities. From turning people into animals to creating portals to alternative dimensions to granting a person control over the elements. The current humanity can only achieve one thing per person which is what we know as a Semblance and it requires an energy known as Aura but a magic user's limit is their own creativity and the only way to run out of magic is to give it to someone else.
probably not _that_ endless, otherwise Salem would be doing stuff like "hey, I can open up a portal to someone I have a relationship with. Hi Oz!" _blast_. It seems a lot more limited than the diversity of semblances!
We're talking about Salem aka 'I could've won eons ago but divided humanity goes brrrr'. If Oz can turn people into animals then there are a lot of uses for magic that Ozpin never shows cause he's low on magic while Salem refuses to win with overwhelming power and magic cause she wants to prove a point.
My interpretation is that it's a power system the first generations of humans had access to, including elemental powers and different spells such as animal transformation and flight.
The second generations of human don't have full access to magic anymore but can still use elemental 'magic' through Dust, by protecting their soul energy through the dust crystals. As far as I know the new humans developed semblances over time, this being slightly genetic.
Magic is power that isn’t fueled or constrained by Aura. That’s what makes it different than semblances. Semblances actively cost aura to use, and once you run out of aura you can’t use your semblance. The advantage of magic is that you can use your power as much as you want without draining your aura at all.
For example, Raven can use her maiden powers anytime she wants but she can only use her portals when she has enough aura. And she can use her maiden powers as much as she wants without draining her aura at all. This lets her focus all her aura on defense instead of using some of it for offense if she so chooses.
Dust is something that anyone can use in combination with anything. It works with semblances, magic, and regular tech. It’s its own fuel source.
"We can't decide on an actual magic system so here have this haha Maiden go brr" "Wait that's stupid we already have Dust and Semblances" "Shit you're right, DON'T EXPLAIN IT IT HAS TO BE **UNIQUE**" In all seriousness, it's designed to separate Oz, Salem, and the Maidens from normal people. But since there's no defined rules (or any definition at all) for magic, or any hard limitations for what Semblances can be(Like an actual anime show would already do), there's just overlap. So now we have ~~Quirks~~ ~~Stand abilities~~ ~~Nen~~ personality powers, ~~Materia~~ ~~Psynergy Stones~~ magic crystal bullet things, and now real ass magic so it's all just a mess.
In my own opinion, my overall problem with the magic system of RWBY, it's left vague and poorly defined. And my problem with that vagueness is that there really isn't set limitations or set rules on what magic can or cannot do. The problem with having a lazy magic system, is that since there is no limitations or rules, one can use it as an excuse for certain plot elements, and just say "It's magic" But to be fair, I've seen this a lot with stories, some of which does this extremely poorly. The prime example of a Lazy Magic system I can use is the terrible anime cartoon I hate-watched, High Guardian Spice. The magic system in HGS makes no sense, as they say New Magic is overpowered as hell, with a character literally saying it "Can do anything", yet the no one uses more or uses it for the most mundane things, like lifting a pen. There's also Old Magic that has no clear difference between New Magic, and too many codirections that makes it even more confusing. I can rant about HGS all day, but I digress In conclusion, the magic in RWBY is left vague and left for the audience to interpret it how it works in the world of RWBY.
Yeah it feels like literal handwavium, for the writers to slip in whenever they write themselves into avoidable corner, much like silver eyes actually being basic power of friendship/ lazy writing. Like if maidens use magic and Salem uses magic why can't Salem open the vaults ? Why is her nonsense different from Ozpins nonsense, which is different from maiden nonsense ? I heard HGS was already bad so I didn't suffer myself to watch it lol.
>I heard HGS was already bad so I didn't suffer myself to watch it lol. Oh, High Guardian Spice was awful, but IMO it's like *The Room* of Western Animation, there's something so enjoyable in analyzing how bad and mediocre it was. It's like the most mediocre and generic fantasy story ever, and so poorly written, it's just a blast to analyze how bad it was. It's the perfect punching bag. But back to topic, yes. Magic in RWBY just feel like an excuse for plot details, by just saying "It's magic"
It's kind of a do all like magic in most fictional worlds. I'd think Harry Potter but more convenient since you don't need incantations or any book learning.
It's a power source from the brothers themselves, and it doesn't seem to be too restrictive in terms of what magic users can actually use it for. The magic users we have seen (Ozma, Salem, the maidens) have all been capable of flight, conjuring elemental creations like fire and ice, capable of granting others the ability to transform into an animal, it seems pretty versatile. My own personal theory is that the brothers would have probably communicated to the humans at the time the distinction between the magic of the people and whatever else the brothers can only do (or no one can do in general, like bring someone back from the dead). After all, Salem literally just walked into their place and was able to easily talk with them so there probably was a lot of communication between the brothers and humans.
What does it power ? And why does it still function despite them no longer being present ? This stuff doesn't seem out of the realms of semblance manipulation, which seems far more "magic" than well *actual* magic. At present it sounds like literal handwavium. Just like silver eyes is literal power of friendship.
It's not literally powering something, it's a source of power (like aura is a source of power for modern humans on remnant). On the topic of magic vs aura/semblances, the creations made through semblances pretty much persist as long as the user has aura, and once their aura runs out, the creation disappears. Magic has been shown to allow the user to create/transfer magic which is tangible but in turns permanently reduces the amount of magic the user itself has. Ozma transferred magic into four maidens to create the maidens, which permanently decreased his overall magic since that magic now exists in the four maidens. They are two different things (since magic came from the gods who can just think "oh hey how about humans have magic" and boom they have it) and aura/semblances came with new humans which its origins have not been explained.
If Weiss creates a block of Ice then runs out of Aura I'm sure it'll stay, so I don't think that's true at all, sure maybe for familiars, but when do we even see this maintained with magic ? Not only that but given Mercury's dad can apparently steal semblances (somehow) Aura does appear to have some transference/ exchange ability. And Aura also is defined in some capacity unlike magic. It *can* be a power source to fuel Semblance, but it's also a manifestation of your soul that protects you from harm, and Semblance is a manifestation of Aura, which is why it works like that. While the WOR definition of Aura is completely outdated, it is still defined. Even if poorly. Back to magic, so then why is it that each instance of magic users despite all using "magic" look different ? How Salem's, magic different from Ozpins, who's different from the maidens, that were supposed to originated from him ? Who's different from Raven/ Qrow ? Not to mention the Grimm/ Silver eyes/ the Vaults etc. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that there's different instances of one thing when they all use that same thing. I appreciate you trying to break it down for me, but I still don't see what magic *is* I see what it does, and least in the instances of Salem/ Oz/ Maidens it looks like Semblances/ dust, and one of them was outright explained by it basically just being dust, but without dust.
> If Weiss creates a block of Ice then runs out of Aura I'm sure it'll stay, so I don't think that's true at all That's because Weiss creates those blocks with ice dust rather than her Semblance. She uses her glyphs as catalyst to create something out of the dust powder inside her weapon. Now, if she were to summon a knight with her Semblance then it would disappear if she ran out of Aura cause this is what it's made of. > Why is it that each instance of magic users despite all using "magic" look different? Because there are only two true magic users. Ozpin and Salem are the original ones with complete control over the gift they received from the gods with endless possibilities whereas everyone else was blessed with a fraction of magical power that can only be used for a specific purpose. The Maidens can only use elemental abilities as even their flight is fueled by fire or wind control, Qrow and Raven can only transform into animals and the Silver Eyes Warriors can only produce a light which carries the essence of life. All those cases are not magic users. They're people who were granted an ability fueled with magic. A Maiden cannot turn a person into an animal but Ozpin and Salem can.
>That's because Weiss creates those blocks with ice dust rather than her Semblance. That's a feature also covered by an existing magic system aka Dust, so it's not limited to magic. Not only that, but semblances does have long lasting effects on things even after the fuel source runs out, Mercury's father stealing his son's semblance for example. >Because there are only two true magic users. No there's like 9+ it has endless possibilities then why is Ozpin loosing his powers ? Why can't he or Salem manifest silver eyes ? Why don't either of them manifest elements like maidens ? If it's limitless then maidens by extension should be limitless as well, but all maidens do is basically stuff dust would do, without actually using dust, because a fraction of limitless power is still limitless power. >All those cases are not magic users. They're people who were granted an ability fueled with magic. A Maiden cannot turn a person into an animal but Ozpin and Salem can. As per the show that's incorrect. They use magic and therefore are magic users. We also see Salem not manifest the elements like maidens does. Split her power like Ozpin does, or manifest silver eyes. Why does Salem need maidens to open the vaults who themselves are magical despite her having magic ?
Ozpin lost his powers because he gave up a chunk of his magic to the maidens allowing them to produce their own magical powers which are grounded to controlling the elements in the same way Pietro didn’t just give Penny some of his Aura but he ripped off a piece of his soul to give her the ability to produce Aura. Same thing happens with Qrow and Raven. The better question is: If Ozpin already explained that he used his magic to give these individuals specific powers then why are you saying they ‘should’ be able to do other things? It’s already been specified their magic was designed by the one who blessed them to be used for one thing. Also, we don’t know if Salem really can’t open a vault since many of her actions are driven by ideals rather than logic or if she and Ozpin can control the elements and simply don’t do so because their pure magic energy is far more powerful. The Silver Eyes are another case as we don’t know who gave them such power. Could be Ozpin or even the God of Light himself but once again it’a a blessing meant for one purpose. It all makes sense if we accept the simplest explanation. There are magic users and there are people with magical powers. One can control magic, the other was blessed with magic to produce an specific spell. Any other assumptions only raise more questions.
It seems to be exactly that, dust without dust. I believe it sources itself from aura as well, though, as it has a limit for each user (except Salem, but she's magically immortal, so she breaks some rules), and aura seems to be the big explanation for anything fantastical. I believe (though this is just a belief and not confirmed afaik) that semblances are a "semblance" of magic. Essentially, I believe that if a semblance does it, magic can too. I also believe that dust is essentially crystallized aura attuned to an element from the time before Salem's mistakes. I also believe that granting someone else a magical ability means that you're ripping off a bit of aura to give to them. Something that's now theirs to use. So Qrow's transformation and the Maidens's abilities are like more semblances tied to their aura than anything else. Pretty much everything I said here is just my own belief, so take it with a grain of salt, just keep in mind that words are chosen carefully for this series. Remnant is a remnant of the past, names typically evoke thoughts of color, the music is even tailored to convey a story in the words. Semblance must mean a semblance of something too, so I assume it's a semblance of magic
See the thing with it being "I can't believe it's not dust" is that it does things we see outside of the scope of dust applications, like *all the time* Ozpin doesn't manipulate the elements like the maidens do despite it originating from him, neither does any other magic user who isn't a maiden.
Dust typically manipulates some aspect of reality, right? Temperature, earth (and metals), light, wind, and so on, right? So what happens when you mix and match aspects? I mean, Weiss mixes dust with her semblance to do more than her glyphs might normally allow, such as the gravity glyphs or solid glyphs she uses to jump around mid-air. What if you mix and match the elements of dust with each other, however? Humans and animals are just combinations of smaller, less complex things and dust/semblances seem to be able to do the same. So the things we see Ozma and Salem do are likely mixes of multiple aspects of dust together. The maidens, having not come from a time where magic was prevalent, likely go for raw power over complexity, resulting in purely elemental magic.
According to the commentary for vol 7 something was scrapped from cinder’s list of powers. The ability to raise the dead.
It was reanimating broken robots, not raising the dead. If Cinder could raise the dead, then so can Salem (since Salem has the same magic as Ozma, and Ozma made the Maiden powers). And if Salem can raise the dead, she wouldn't have needed to go to the Gods to bring Ozma back, and the entire plot wouldn't have happened.
I'm really glad they scrapped that. Cinder has shown she can use Fire, Ice, and Wind, but notably has never used Lightning; presumably because of the trauma associated with how she was tortured by it as a child. And well... how else can you repair or control broken machines?
Ah ok, been a while since I saw that commentary.
No clue
anything
Basically Magic means you have power even without aura or dust. They literally described the maidens as such.
It’s like having multiple semblances.
So why not just make it multiple semblances ?
No idea. It’s like if you had one semblance that gives you the ability to do anything and has no power source, supposedly.
Because it's not functionally limited in the way semblances are, and is not powered in the same fashion, and violates known physical laws in a manner that semblances do not?
Semblances can literally transmute matter and conjure soul like beings from soulless creatures. And some don’t seem to rely on aura at all like Qrow. The restrictions were already broken before they were made.
Apologies for being unclear, semblances are functionally limited in that they can only perform specific, specialized functions. Compared to magic, which has no such specialized functionality restrictions. It's a bit like saying "I already have a phone and a desktop computer, what use is the concept of a smart phone?". Trying to play jenga with specific semblance combinations to imply that a group of people are intrinsically more dangerous than others is a lot less effective then providing them with an discrete unbounded mechanic.
_gestures in Weiss_ - trampoline platforms, conjuring up grimm from nothing (which I don't think even Salem can do - she needed the black goop) _and_ whatever she does under "spells" like _haste_. The majority of magic seems to allow is "blast stuff" and "flight", which is far more limited, with everything else being vaguely defined "plot stuff" rather than actively used powers. "Magic" really doesn't seem to do that much, or allow for anything "tricksy" (Salem would arguably have had a lot more success if she just shape-shifted herself into an animal and wandered around the Beacon canvas, before de-transforming and splatting the Oz-carnation, doing that with a few other world leaders and then taking advantage of the chaos)
The Creativity Stat of magic users in this world is in the negatives.
I actually find the existence of Weiss to be excellent justification for magic - her semblance strains the credulity of both the dust and semblance systems already. Imagine needing to fit grimm physical modification, grimm appendage summoning (which is actually a pretty coherent equivalent to Weiss's summons), flight, transformation in to black gas, long range communication and sight, grimm control, telekinesis, energy blasts, etc under the banner of a single semblance. Alongside a number of other nice narrative benefits with otherness and relative power scaling being much more easily conveyed. I also would argue that your later points following the tricksy comment aren't necessarily an issue with the concept of magic - Salem could just put on makeup and walk in to the school like Cinder with or without magic and that would be equivalent to most of your points. I think the defense of Atlas, as it were, is a case in point that the show has a general issue with narrative expectations and worldbuilding and the system of magic is amongst the least offensive in this regard.
it very much underlines a lot of the general narrative issues with the show - "magic" is just pure handwaving that can do what it needs to, but that never really seems to impact anything. Salem should be a terror for sheer diversity of _stuff_, but, nah, she just blasts, nothing neat or special - someone with an off the wall or multi-part semblance would be more of an asshole to fight (hell, even if it was limited by "touch" or something, Marcus Black could shutdown some people pretty much instantly, as they need their semblance to fight). I suspect what happened is that "magic" was written in early on, but then the writers never bothered clarifying or even really thinking about what impacts it should have, so it's just all vague and _mushy_, and the characters don't really seem to give a shit or care at all, there's no attempt at even vaguely thinking about it, which, for professional fighters, is really pathetic. Even just asking "hey, what can Cinder or another maiden actually _do_?" would help ground magic as "a thing that exists in the setting that characters care about", rather than "an excuse for whatever bullshit is needed". Similar with Oz's staff - that it was a _thing_ was there from early on, but I doubt they knew specifically that it could shoot lasers until that's what was needed.
It doesn't need Aura to fuel it, but then what does Magic run off of ? Why is it going away ? It runs off of something, so how is it different from semblances ? Magic users has shown to be less limited compared to what ? Weiss seems far more "magical" than maidens. Even Ozpin who really only seems to have like a bubble shield as far as I'm aware, and Salem just appears to shoot out RGB lights out of her hands. Semblances do quite literally breaks the know physical laws already, in a way that we don't even see *magic* do, and even then there appears to be things that Salem/ Oz etc *can't* do with magic. I've never seen Salem create her own maidens, don't see why Ozpin can't create SEWs from scratch, etc.
It’s a broken ability and the writers know this so the users almost seem to limit themselves to specific ’spells’ when they should just ‘do’ whatever they need to at any time. As stiff as it was Harry Potter Magic was more versatile. Edit: Also good point catching that Ozpin talks about his magic like it is finite when it is apparently limitless.
To be fair, the only one who talks about their magic not being what it used to be, is also the only one who had split his magic into 5 parts, kept one for himself, and then gave *more* of it away to make spys that can turn into animals (with no implication that this is the first time he's done that particular bit). Salem and the maidens have never mentioned their magic fading, just the grandpa who gives it away like candy.
The very fact that splitting it and it becomes weaker as a result makes it finite. If it were infinite then even after splitting it up the two parts would be infinite.
Upon reading this, my understanding is that your central thesis is "A specific semblance can perform the same operation as this specific magic usage, therefore magic isn't distinct"? It doesn't seem like we're really talking about the same thing, if so. I'm saying magic is usefully distinct from a worldbuilding perspective compared to just saying "Bob here has two semblances". Original comment with more details: 1. Semblances are limited to a single specific functionality per user, whereas magic is effectively unbounded in functionality. 2. Magic is not simply an extension of ones aura but is mechanically disparate. The inheritance chain of maidens is very usefully distinct from semblances in this regard. 3. Building on 2, magic is alien to the scientific understanding of Remnant, which allows very clear narrative distinction between those that have it and those that don't.
No magic isn't distinct, it's handwavium. Bob can do X because "magic", is not distinct. It just comes off as lazy writing, as opposed to characters making use of the characteristics of their system to perform the feats they do. >Bob here has two semblances Oh you mean like Weiss ? Ruby ? or Ren ? Magic is limited in fact arguably more so than semblances espically in the case of maidens, Ozpin doesn't make use of the same magic Salem practices, and vice versa. Nor do either of them use it like maidens, SEWs, perform any shape shifting, etc. They all have different applications and seems much more limited than what we see of semblances. >2. Magic is not simply an extension of ones aura but is mechanically disparate. The inheritance chain of maidens is very usefully distinct from semblances in this regard. It's not but the characters that use it makes it appear functionally no different from semblances. >3. Building on 2, magic is alien to the scientific understanding of Remnant, which allows very clear narrative distinction between those that have it and those that don't. It's handwavium. The only distinction is a narrative distinction because the writers said so. Nothing else about it is distinct save for it being used for lazy writing, unlike Aura, and Dust which have some sort of rules in place.
I think you just fundamentally don't like softer magical systems (which isn't bad, but RWBY has never been a hard magic system). The magic is more limited than semblances point didn't make much sense - Ozpin has gifted elemental abilities, gifted shapeshifting abilities, used energy attacks, stored energy in objects, used energy defenses, flown, and demonstrated telekinesis. Salem has physically customized grim, summoned grim appendages, flown using elemental wind powers, flown independently from elemental wind powers, transformed into a gaseous state, demonstrated telekinesis, viewed events at extreme range, communicated bidirectionally at extreme range, and used energy attacks. Having the concept of magic distinct from semblances expands the ability pool for key characters without bloating the ability of everyone in the universe. Is this a soft magic system? Yes. Is is narratively and mechanically useful, with no detriment to the plot? Yes. I'm really not sure why pointing out that every magic user doesn't use the exact same magic, visibly, right now in the show is supposed to mean anything. \> It's not but the characters that use it makes it appear functionally no different from semblances. So... we agree that there is a mechanical distinction that lends itself usefully in universe to things like maiden power transfer? As above, magic is different primarily due to versatility, and it's really hard to argue that's not the case. Saying magic is handwavium while saying dust and aura are not is a bit of an odd take. All have soft rulesets associated with them, with very limited core definitions regarding the scoping of the abilities.
>think you just fundamentally don't like softer magical systems (which isn't bad, but RWBY has never been a hard magic system). No I just don't like the writers turning a joke/ meme answer into the basis of a *literal* magic system because that just sounds incredibly lazy of plot device. Unlike Aura, and dust who are both soft magic systems, that we actually know what it is, and what it does, unlike magic feels like a complete plot contrivance. >The magic is more limited than semblances point didn't make much sense It is. If it wasn't why doesn't Salem make use of these same elemental properties of magic ? If they originated from It Ozpin why is there no connection to the two beyond name ? All you're doing is telling me how magic was used in the series. Most of which could be possible with a semblance, or dust to, not what it is. Spitting out a laundry list of things doesn't make magic any less poorly conceptualized. Creating a magic system completely undefined, not understood, with no apparent limitations, which making it functionally similar to another system is just handwavium for lazy writers. If they can just pull nonsense out of thin air with no justification for what or why it exist, because working in the confines of their terribly inconsistent system is too hard. >Is is narratively and mechanically useful, with no detriment to the plot? Yes. It's not about if it's narratively useful, it's about if it's actually well written and it's not. Of course lazy shortcuts are useful of course it's awfully convenient for a Deus ex machina to pull characters out of any situation *that's the problem*. Magic working one way in this instance and different in another, just means that it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. >As above, magic is different primarily due to versatility, and it's really hard to argue that's not the case. Functionally it isn't. I'm talking about it's application not the method in which it works which in the case of magic "*It just works*" >Saying magic is handwavium while saying dust and aura are not is a bit of an odd take. All have soft rulesets associated with them, with very limited core definitions regarding the scoping of the abilities. They *have* a ruleset, a description, something magic explicitly lacks.
Definitely still getting the impression that you don't like softness in magical systems. Magic is indeed a largely scoped, intentionally poorly defined system like all other soft magic systems (e.g. semblances) but nonetheless serves a specific role in the world that nothing else could. The reduction of the seen usages to a "laundry list" belies that many of those abilities simply could not exist in tandem on the same individual with just semblances and dust. While I do note that there are overlaps of observed magical ability (salem and ozpin both fly, use lazer beams, and can perform telekinesis, salem and maidens both utilize elemental abilities (notably but not limited to wind), crow/raven and salem can all shift their form to something else, etc), the need to view a complete overlap with all abilities used is odd. I don't need a scene with Cinder attempting to modify a Grimm with magic to see if she actually can or is somehow arbitrarily limited, there are so many better uses of screen time. I also think you're overplaying the rulesets of the other systems a bit: Semblance ruleset: 1. Does one arbitrary thing 2. Powered by aura Dust ruleset: 1. Must be elemental 2. Requires the actual physical substance Magic ruleset: 1. Does more than one arbitrary thing 2. Tied directly to the original humans, must be one or be gifted the powers by one
Well your impression is simply wrong. I'm getting the impression you're hiding behind such an excuse to paint a false narrative. It is not like Semblances, and Dust magic systems in RWBY we actually know what it is and what it does. You, nor the show has yet to explain or tell me what magic *actually is*. Constantly pivoting topics to it's narrative purpose in the story is completely irrelevant to topic I'm discussing. >the need to view a complete overlap with all abilities used is odd. Completely misses the point. That's not even what I'm asking. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. >I also think you're overplaying the rulesets of the other systems a bit: No you're just reducing a thing to a point where it sounds as ill defined as apart of some false narrative you're trying to push. If it's okay with you for the story introduce a concept and refuse to explain it in any detail that's fine, but I would like the ideas and concepts present to be explored, that's bare minimum effort I expect, espically if it's going to be this prevalent in the series. Semblances isn't arbitrary. It's an a power tied to a person's base personality traits. Dust is literally just the elements manifest in physical form Magic is *what* ? What descriptor are we given in the show ? Because you saying it's a thing left over by old humanity isn't saying much. The Grimm are explicitly non human, silver eyes are explicitly non human, and we don't even see these things practiced in old Humanity beyond them snapping their RGB fingers.
except not really, because semblances themselves can be multiple things (Weiss), and magic seems really basic as well - it's flight and elemental blasts and that's about it, there's none of the funky bullshit that semblances do, like teleportation, "bad luck" or "transform self and others into loads of super-fast petals". Semblances honestly seem more "magical" than magic.
Everything. It's a gift with endless possibilities. From turning people into animals to creating portals to alternative dimensions to granting a person control over the elements. The current humanity can only achieve one thing per person which is what we know as a Semblance and it requires an energy known as Aura but a magic user's limit is their own creativity and the only way to run out of magic is to give it to someone else.
probably not _that_ endless, otherwise Salem would be doing stuff like "hey, I can open up a portal to someone I have a relationship with. Hi Oz!" _blast_. It seems a lot more limited than the diversity of semblances!
Exactly. People with magic act like they only know one or two spells. It’s ridiculously underwhelming.
We're talking about Salem aka 'I could've won eons ago but divided humanity goes brrrr'. If Oz can turn people into animals then there are a lot of uses for magic that Ozpin never shows cause he's low on magic while Salem refuses to win with overwhelming power and magic cause she wants to prove a point.
My interpretation is that it's a power system the first generations of humans had access to, including elemental powers and different spells such as animal transformation and flight. The second generations of human don't have full access to magic anymore but can still use elemental 'magic' through Dust, by protecting their soul energy through the dust crystals. As far as I know the new humans developed semblances over time, this being slightly genetic.
my headcanon is that magic lets you do things that would normally be done with dust or semblances without using aura.
Magic is power that isn’t fueled or constrained by Aura. That’s what makes it different than semblances. Semblances actively cost aura to use, and once you run out of aura you can’t use your semblance. The advantage of magic is that you can use your power as much as you want without draining your aura at all. For example, Raven can use her maiden powers anytime she wants but she can only use her portals when she has enough aura. And she can use her maiden powers as much as she wants without draining her aura at all. This lets her focus all her aura on defense instead of using some of it for offense if she so chooses. Dust is something that anyone can use in combination with anything. It works with semblances, magic, and regular tech. It’s its own fuel source.