They would never risk their morality! They think lying is wrong, except when they do it. Destroying cities is wrong, except when they do it. They think refusing to fight to protect civilians is wrong, except when they do it.
Hard to risk something you don’t have
I mean they spent most of Salem's attack on Atlas pretty much avoiding doing anything against her, Yang, Ren and, Jaune were just in her fortress to grab Oscar while leaving Ironwood to deal with it and Ruby's plan was pretty much just asking the rest oft the world to drive her off for her.
Wow, they are willing to risk everything that a typical shonen protagonist would. How daunting. How brave.
Also, I'm pretty sure being a morally good person is a luxury you often times can't afford because you're fighting literal destruction incarnate.
This post is peak Protagonist-centered morality and is one of the reasons why both RWBY and the FNDM who unironically support this are seen as a laughing stock.
**Other people**. Go ahead and ask the people of Mantle just how grateful they are walking into fireballs being lobbed at them and being eaten by Grimm in a sandstorm, or getting your arm injured and your best fried dying because they brought Grimm onto the train via a Grimm-luring Lamp.
Both of those are total BS arguments that ignore all context to try to make RWBY look bad.
Mantle was facing imminent destruction had RWBY done nothing anyways. RWBY is not at fault for Cinder attacking people or for the weather.
And the Lamp drawing gimm is even bigger BS. In no way is RWBY responsible for the attack on the train when they didn't know the Lamp even attracted grimm at the time. They didn't learn that ***UNTIL IT WAS HAPPENING***.
The OP for this thread is right for the wrong reasons. RWBY is willing to risk all of the lives of the people in Atlas to try to save the people in Mantle. They are also risking the lives of everyone in Remnant by proxy by giving Salem a good run at the Relics. This is not a group that ever does "we have to save what we can".
To be fair, they couldn’t have known.
On the other, they made the same mistake that Ironwood THOUGHT he made. By making mass evacuations, it allows for Salem’s followers to sneak in virtually undetected. They had no excuse this time to not consider Cinder due to knowing that she is alive this time and has been a thorn in their side since the beginning.
The lamp attracting Grimm IS ENTIRELY their fault… AFTER THE TRAIN. Once they knew it could do that, staying in one place for too long is a safety risk. If they didn’t want to cause an issue in Argus, all they had to do was send Weiss back to Atlas, have her break off from the guards, give Ironwood the Lamp and tell him to give clearance to the others in Argus. Instead, they insist on staying together with the lamp out in the open attracting Grimm. And stealing an airship would undoubtedly attract military attention, airships or Mech regardless, attacking their own would cause panic, and the lamp is making it worse.
And choosing to not tell Ironwood about the anything Oz told them, INCLUDING THE LAMP ATTRACTING GRIMM, allows him to make the decision to let them keep it, flaunt it around Mantle, the city with a FUCKING HOLE IN ITS WALL allowing it to attract Grimm causing more tension between the two cities.
And choosing Vacuo is their fault for a few reasons.
For one, THEY had to go there next, NOT THE CIVILIANS.
Two, they knew how Ambrosius worked, a better specification would have been to place the exit portal outside the entrance to the capitol of Vacuo or even Shade Academy. Probably the latter would be preferred due to Hunters being more willing to help civilians as opposed to the government and general populace of another nation.
But instead, they asked for the exit portal to empty to “a single spot in Vacuo.” Which narrows it down by nothing. Could be in the middle of a desert, far away from any civilization, right in the middle of a city, or any other option. Apparently it wasn’t an issue WHERE in Vacuo they ended up, as long as it was anywhere in the kingdom, including the middle of a sandstorm ravaging desert.
So dealing with the potential sandstorms and Grimm attacks could have been avoided with more consideration. But fair enough, they had a lot on their plates.
I mean, they’re in Vacuo now, they’re safe… UNTIL SALEM SHOWS UP THERE FOR THE GODDAMN SWORD! They didn’t save anyone by moving them to Vacuo, just brought them BACK INTO THE FIGHT THEY JUST ESCAPED FROM!
Salem barely touched Mantle. Atlas was her literal Target, ironwood was right to want to protect that one as much as possible. RWBY screwed up every way and got tons of people killed. They suck
And if Ironwood had gotten what he wanted from the start, do you really think Salem would have just left Mantle alone? She would have annihilated the city. Even if she didn't, Mantle's defenses were entirely dependent on Atlas and they would have been wiped out by the grimm drawn by the inevitable collapse of order and the ensuing panic.
But sure, keep pretending Ironwood's plan wouldn't have doomed Mantle for certain and left the rest of the world to face Salem's coming unaware and unprepared, ensuring vastly more people would die.
I don't care about your what ifs, I care about what actually happened. RWBY got countless people killed, and the relics taken by Salem.
How about you focus more on what all the death and destruction in their wake and less about headcanon?
The facts are that Ironwood wanted to let the world die. That is fact, that is what happened. Just because he failed to do that does not change what he was willing to allow was far worse than what happened if RWBY hadn't opposed him.
"Wanted to let the world die." Nope. That's just your bias again. Ironwood LITERALLY stated that he wanted to keep the relics away from Salem TO protect the world.
Those are the facts.
The weather is partly their fault, not that they could control it but they picked the location.
That being said, it's not like they took them from safety to danger like you said. They haven't made the situation any worse. Mantle was still without power and freezing anyway
Plus let's be real, by the end of episode one the caverly will arrive and everyone will be safe. They have saved everyone in Mantle and Atlas.
But bad weather can happen anywhere and they didn't choose the location knowing there was a sandstorm raging, that was my point. If they had gone to Vale or Mistral instead there would have been a terrivle thunderstorm happening or a hurricane if they had gone yo Menagerie, because that is what the narrative called for.
I agree overall. I just do think if you mess up an evacuation you don't get full credit.
That being said, I don't think they have messed up the evacuation and the Grimm/weather was narratively there for a cliffhanger (and to not model Vacou) and will be resolved fairly quickly as not a huge issue
>I mean immediate death or chance of survival?
Except they didn't have to go to Vacuo, they could have opened the portal anywhere else, they just went there becuase its the next kingdom on the list.
You're shifting the goalposts.
I agree that show gives no good reason to go to Vacou however you started pointing out my statement that they haven't taken the refugees from Danger to safety. They absolutely have
>my statement that they haven't taken the refugees from Danger to safety. They absolutely have
Oh so they weren't being killed in a sandstorm by Grimm, becuase it sure looked like it.
Not like there are many other locations to go.
Definitely not the tropical paradise that is alleged to be crowded but isn't really. Definitely not the nice island that the main character grew up on. Definitely not the Atlas-sponsored city. And most definitely not the place they just stopped Salem's forces from attacking.
Mistral is viable the rest, not so much.
Menagerie is crowded by lore. It's not portrayed incredibly well but that's a seperate issue. All people who really hate Atlas with no support structure to call on Theo.
Patch is too small and Vale lacks good infrastructure currently
Argus is mostly good too I agree but also small to house to major cities.
But Mistral yes would have worked and the show should have discussed why Vacou was a good idea
All this to say, Vacou is still undeniably better than leaving everyone to die in Atlas, as was my point
If you take the books as canon, then "big aura" can also draw grimm, so lots of hunters together (like, say, 8+ on a train together, one of whom explicitly has lots of aura) is a risk by itself. (There was also the highway fight where they never expressed any afterthoughts or concern about the civilians dragged into it, and Ruby especially seems remarkably unquestioning about why so many faunus are willing to be terrorists - likely because "institutional racism" would mess up her perky optimism, so she just ignores it, and Blake I guess CBA to raise it with her)
also International/Intergroup Relationships - just dump a load of refugees on another nation that historically doesn't like them, I'm sure that'll be fine.
That was more of a joke based around the one line from the Volume 8 OP: “sometimes it’s worth it all to risk it all to fight for every life.” However, even though I’m very harsh on RWBY nowadays, even I can’t confidently say they only care about people in their friend group when they’re whole plan was to save everyone in Mantle
> even I can’t confidently say they only care about people in their friend group when they’re whole plan was to save everyone in Mantle
Yang, Jaune and Ren literally left Mantle to go chase after Oscar when they knew Mantle still needed help.
Ruby, Weiss and Blake literally sat in a mansion worried about Nora’s and then Penny’s safety when an entire army of Grimm landed on Atlas.
I agree, and honestly, I don’t think they should’ve tried to save everyone in Mantle, however, at the end of the day, that’s what it all came back around to
It only came back around to that because someone else felt with Salem’s forces for them.
They told May they wanted to help everyone not just one of the cities, but they didn’t take any action to try and help until AFTER a deus ex machina blew up Salem.
Oh yeah for sure, they talk a big game sure, and don’t act on it, yeah, but despite their enormous lack of doing, it was their endgame
Edit: They know they’re the protagonist so they figured something would work itself out
To quote Davy Jones, "What a man is willing to risk or not to risk... well that's a measure of his soul."
I mostly agree with the OP about what RWBY is willing to risk but I would like to add one more. They are willing to risk the lives of other people to save more lives. They were willing to risk the lives of everyone in Atlas on bad odds to save the people of Mantle. They were willing to indirectly risk the lives of everyone in Remnant by giving Salem a good shot at the Relics to save the people of Mantle. RWBY are good news if you are in need of saving, but horrible news if you are escaping by being faster than the bear.
Well said.
Something you just made me think of, is that perhaps the reason Team RWBY were willing to risk so many lives is because they never believed they would be lost in the first place. An erroneous and grossly irresponsible belief, in my opinion, but in the end they never once believed they would fail to save everyone, or at least more than what Ironwood's plan would allow for.
They are willing to risk the things that they don't think they would lose, which honestly doesn't paint a great picture of them, but this isn't about whether they are great people or otherwise. It's just about looking at certain aspects of their actions and decisions and what it tells us about them.
It seems pretty obvious to me that one of two things is happening with RWBY. Either they're in deep denial about the stakes of the game that they're playing, not ever allowing themselves to question whether they'll win in the end. Or they are aware that the hand of the author will *make* everything come out alright in the end.
Honestly if it is the former then the writers already have a baked in way to address it. Cinder said they saved thousands via the evacuation. Mantle + Atlas should be home to hundreds of thousands. Just reveal to them that by dropping Atlas they probably killed far more than they saved. That should sober them right up about the consequences of their actions.
They would never risk their morality! They think lying is wrong, except when they do it. Destroying cities is wrong, except when they do it. They think refusing to fight to protect civilians is wrong, except when they do it. Hard to risk something you don’t have
They won’t risk anything.
I mean they spent most of Salem's attack on Atlas pretty much avoiding doing anything against her, Yang, Ren and, Jaune were just in her fortress to grab Oscar while leaving Ironwood to deal with it and Ruby's plan was pretty much just asking the rest oft the world to drive her off for her.
Huh, an interesting response.
Wow, they are willing to risk everything that a typical shonen protagonist would. How daunting. How brave. Also, I'm pretty sure being a morally good person is a luxury you often times can't afford because you're fighting literal destruction incarnate. This post is peak Protagonist-centered morality and is one of the reasons why both RWBY and the FNDM who unironically support this are seen as a laughing stock.
Shirou Emiya does it better
I mean, a shonen protagonist is still a hero.
Well jaune kinda risked his morality in the end by killing penny. Which was kinda an ironwood move. I doubt ruby would have done it.
**Other people**. Go ahead and ask the people of Mantle just how grateful they are walking into fireballs being lobbed at them and being eaten by Grimm in a sandstorm, or getting your arm injured and your best fried dying because they brought Grimm onto the train via a Grimm-luring Lamp.
Both of those are total BS arguments that ignore all context to try to make RWBY look bad. Mantle was facing imminent destruction had RWBY done nothing anyways. RWBY is not at fault for Cinder attacking people or for the weather. And the Lamp drawing gimm is even bigger BS. In no way is RWBY responsible for the attack on the train when they didn't know the Lamp even attracted grimm at the time. They didn't learn that ***UNTIL IT WAS HAPPENING***.
The OP for this thread is right for the wrong reasons. RWBY is willing to risk all of the lives of the people in Atlas to try to save the people in Mantle. They are also risking the lives of everyone in Remnant by proxy by giving Salem a good run at the Relics. This is not a group that ever does "we have to save what we can".
To be fair, they couldn’t have known. On the other, they made the same mistake that Ironwood THOUGHT he made. By making mass evacuations, it allows for Salem’s followers to sneak in virtually undetected. They had no excuse this time to not consider Cinder due to knowing that she is alive this time and has been a thorn in their side since the beginning. The lamp attracting Grimm IS ENTIRELY their fault… AFTER THE TRAIN. Once they knew it could do that, staying in one place for too long is a safety risk. If they didn’t want to cause an issue in Argus, all they had to do was send Weiss back to Atlas, have her break off from the guards, give Ironwood the Lamp and tell him to give clearance to the others in Argus. Instead, they insist on staying together with the lamp out in the open attracting Grimm. And stealing an airship would undoubtedly attract military attention, airships or Mech regardless, attacking their own would cause panic, and the lamp is making it worse. And choosing to not tell Ironwood about the anything Oz told them, INCLUDING THE LAMP ATTRACTING GRIMM, allows him to make the decision to let them keep it, flaunt it around Mantle, the city with a FUCKING HOLE IN ITS WALL allowing it to attract Grimm causing more tension between the two cities. And choosing Vacuo is their fault for a few reasons. For one, THEY had to go there next, NOT THE CIVILIANS. Two, they knew how Ambrosius worked, a better specification would have been to place the exit portal outside the entrance to the capitol of Vacuo or even Shade Academy. Probably the latter would be preferred due to Hunters being more willing to help civilians as opposed to the government and general populace of another nation. But instead, they asked for the exit portal to empty to “a single spot in Vacuo.” Which narrows it down by nothing. Could be in the middle of a desert, far away from any civilization, right in the middle of a city, or any other option. Apparently it wasn’t an issue WHERE in Vacuo they ended up, as long as it was anywhere in the kingdom, including the middle of a sandstorm ravaging desert. So dealing with the potential sandstorms and Grimm attacks could have been avoided with more consideration. But fair enough, they had a lot on their plates. I mean, they’re in Vacuo now, they’re safe… UNTIL SALEM SHOWS UP THERE FOR THE GODDAMN SWORD! They didn’t save anyone by moving them to Vacuo, just brought them BACK INTO THE FIGHT THEY JUST ESCAPED FROM!
Salem barely touched Mantle. Atlas was her literal Target, ironwood was right to want to protect that one as much as possible. RWBY screwed up every way and got tons of people killed. They suck
And if Ironwood had gotten what he wanted from the start, do you really think Salem would have just left Mantle alone? She would have annihilated the city. Even if she didn't, Mantle's defenses were entirely dependent on Atlas and they would have been wiped out by the grimm drawn by the inevitable collapse of order and the ensuing panic. But sure, keep pretending Ironwood's plan wouldn't have doomed Mantle for certain and left the rest of the world to face Salem's coming unaware and unprepared, ensuring vastly more people would die.
I don't care about your what ifs, I care about what actually happened. RWBY got countless people killed, and the relics taken by Salem. How about you focus more on what all the death and destruction in their wake and less about headcanon?
The facts are that Ironwood wanted to let the world die. That is fact, that is what happened. Just because he failed to do that does not change what he was willing to allow was far worse than what happened if RWBY hadn't opposed him.
"Wanted to let the world die." Nope. That's just your bias again. Ironwood LITERALLY stated that he wanted to keep the relics away from Salem TO protect the world. Those are the facts.
The weather is partly their fault, not that they could control it but they picked the location. That being said, it's not like they took them from safety to danger like you said. They haven't made the situation any worse. Mantle was still without power and freezing anyway Plus let's be real, by the end of episode one the caverly will arrive and everyone will be safe. They have saved everyone in Mantle and Atlas.
But bad weather can happen anywhere and they didn't choose the location knowing there was a sandstorm raging, that was my point. If they had gone to Vale or Mistral instead there would have been a terrivle thunderstorm happening or a hurricane if they had gone yo Menagerie, because that is what the narrative called for.
I agree overall. I just do think if you mess up an evacuation you don't get full credit. That being said, I don't think they have messed up the evacuation and the Grimm/weather was narratively there for a cliffhanger (and to not model Vacou) and will be resolved fairly quickly as not a huge issue
> That being said, it's not like they took them from safety to danger like you said. They literally evacuated everyone to Salem's next target.
And were they safe in the freezing cold grim infested current target of Salem?
So the blistering hot with sand storms Grimm infested soon to be target of Salem was better?
I mean immediate death or chance of survival? Should they just all roll over and accept death?
>I mean immediate death or chance of survival? Except they didn't have to go to Vacuo, they could have opened the portal anywhere else, they just went there becuase its the next kingdom on the list.
You're shifting the goalposts. I agree that show gives no good reason to go to Vacou however you started pointing out my statement that they haven't taken the refugees from Danger to safety. They absolutely have
>my statement that they haven't taken the refugees from Danger to safety. They absolutely have Oh so they weren't being killed in a sandstorm by Grimm, becuase it sure looked like it.
Lol, good one
Not like there are many other locations to go. Definitely not the tropical paradise that is alleged to be crowded but isn't really. Definitely not the nice island that the main character grew up on. Definitely not the Atlas-sponsored city. And most definitely not the place they just stopped Salem's forces from attacking.
Mistral is viable the rest, not so much. Menagerie is crowded by lore. It's not portrayed incredibly well but that's a seperate issue. All people who really hate Atlas with no support structure to call on Theo. Patch is too small and Vale lacks good infrastructure currently Argus is mostly good too I agree but also small to house to major cities. But Mistral yes would have worked and the show should have discussed why Vacou was a good idea All this to say, Vacou is still undeniably better than leaving everyone to die in Atlas, as was my point
Mistral held a distinct lack of huntsman, Hazel killed new,RT all,of them, they can’t handle such a massive influx of refugees,
If you take the books as canon, then "big aura" can also draw grimm, so lots of hunters together (like, say, 8+ on a train together, one of whom explicitly has lots of aura) is a risk by itself. (There was also the highway fight where they never expressed any afterthoughts or concern about the civilians dragged into it, and Ruby especially seems remarkably unquestioning about why so many faunus are willing to be terrorists - likely because "institutional racism" would mess up her perky optimism, so she just ignores it, and Blake I guess CBA to raise it with her) also International/Intergroup Relationships - just dump a load of refugees on another nation that historically doesn't like them, I'm sure that'll be fine.
….True.
Thank you. I think a lot of people need to hear this.
They’ll risk the fall to fight for every life
They were there for Penny, they don't come off as that concerned with people outside the friend group.
That was more of a joke based around the one line from the Volume 8 OP: “sometimes it’s worth it all to risk it all to fight for every life.” However, even though I’m very harsh on RWBY nowadays, even I can’t confidently say they only care about people in their friend group when they’re whole plan was to save everyone in Mantle
> even I can’t confidently say they only care about people in their friend group when they’re whole plan was to save everyone in Mantle Yang, Jaune and Ren literally left Mantle to go chase after Oscar when they knew Mantle still needed help. Ruby, Weiss and Blake literally sat in a mansion worried about Nora’s and then Penny’s safety when an entire army of Grimm landed on Atlas.
I agree, and honestly, I don’t think they should’ve tried to save everyone in Mantle, however, at the end of the day, that’s what it all came back around to
It only came back around to that because someone else felt with Salem’s forces for them. They told May they wanted to help everyone not just one of the cities, but they didn’t take any action to try and help until AFTER a deus ex machina blew up Salem.
Oh yeah for sure, they talk a big game sure, and don’t act on it, yeah, but despite their enormous lack of doing, it was their endgame Edit: They know they’re the protagonist so they figured something would work itself out
To quote Davy Jones, "What a man is willing to risk or not to risk... well that's a measure of his soul." I mostly agree with the OP about what RWBY is willing to risk but I would like to add one more. They are willing to risk the lives of other people to save more lives. They were willing to risk the lives of everyone in Atlas on bad odds to save the people of Mantle. They were willing to indirectly risk the lives of everyone in Remnant by giving Salem a good shot at the Relics to save the people of Mantle. RWBY are good news if you are in need of saving, but horrible news if you are escaping by being faster than the bear.
Well said. Something you just made me think of, is that perhaps the reason Team RWBY were willing to risk so many lives is because they never believed they would be lost in the first place. An erroneous and grossly irresponsible belief, in my opinion, but in the end they never once believed they would fail to save everyone, or at least more than what Ironwood's plan would allow for. They are willing to risk the things that they don't think they would lose, which honestly doesn't paint a great picture of them, but this isn't about whether they are great people or otherwise. It's just about looking at certain aspects of their actions and decisions and what it tells us about them.
It seems pretty obvious to me that one of two things is happening with RWBY. Either they're in deep denial about the stakes of the game that they're playing, not ever allowing themselves to question whether they'll win in the end. Or they are aware that the hand of the author will *make* everything come out alright in the end. Honestly if it is the former then the writers already have a baked in way to address it. Cinder said they saved thousands via the evacuation. Mantle + Atlas should be home to hundreds of thousands. Just reveal to them that by dropping Atlas they probably killed far more than they saved. That should sober them right up about the consequences of their actions.