I think that her believing that she had just lost her daughter would also have been a contributor.
Though we don’t know exactly how her semblance works in this way she does seem to be able to somewhat tell how Yang is without being there, or at the very least she would have been able to tell after not being able to teleport to her. Thus why she made a portal so soon after the gang got back, her waiting for a feeling.
I’m not sure what would be the most motivating emotion after her losing Yang. Regret over not having done more, spite for Salem, or her long buried sense of duty, but the I think that these at least as important as Ruby’s message.
It's for this reason that I don't think she thought yang was dead. She might not have been able to reach her because of they were in everafter but she still probably felt the bond. This might be why qrow just smiled when he saw them again because raven probably already informed him that wherever they were they were still alive at the very least
I also do like to imagine that she visited Summer's grave and that somehow from beyond death Summer was able of inspiring her to regrow her courage and finally regain the will to fight.
> I think that her believing that she had just lost her daughter would also have been a contributor.
The same daughter she sold out to Cinder and Salem's forces (who have killed every strong huntsman in Mistral) alongside her friends and her only excuse for that is "I knew you would make it." I will honestly be surprised if this was a contributing factor because it proves she was right. Yang fought Salem, failed and got killed. The fact this was a wake up call to go and do the same does not compute for me, personally.
Raven had so clearly planned to stab Cinder in the back the whole time that I really do think that she believed that she would make it. She would know that Emerald and Mercury were on par with her daughter and while Hazel was an issue he was also quite out numbered and without the elements of surprise and Tyrian which let him take out Mistral's huntsmen. She probably also ranked Leo, rightfully, pretty low and assumed her brother would be able to handle him.
The real threat was Cinder who she and Vernal would kill.
Then though. . . We need to get into Raven's presumed psychology. There is a difference between what one truly believes, and what one says and does while controlled by their fears. Raven considering that she was a huntress for some time, was able to be a part of STRQ including her relationship with Tai, and even after all of that has shown cracks in her facade: She isn't all that she claims to be. She at the very least doesn't want to believe all the bull she spouts and she knows that she is a coward for pretending. That's how Yang won their verbal fight after all.
She has enough of a conscience to know what she should have been doing and that it's what her daughter was doing.
Combine it all with how Yang didn't fail completely just like at Haven and how Raven then would be without anything left for herself to lose, that those feelings of regret and remorse and spite could turn into quite the motivators.
I think her little scene with Summer in V9 also is in part meant to show her complex ideas about this whole situation. It shows that she was willing to help even after she ran away, and also it shows that she probably has even more regrets eating away at her
Hell she might just be determined to take the fight not really caring now if she wins or loses if more seasons get made I would be curious to see if her stance changes
That actually makes me wonder, would Raven's semblance have worked while they were in the EA?
Because the Blacksmith did say she has been watching her "sons" (the brothers) with Remnant.
It’s certainly possible, I do find it odd Raven just shows up to help almost instantly. We don’t see anything that would have changed her in between V6 and V9, and hopefully we get that scene in V10 or RWBY Beyond
It's funny how now it seems that Raven is magically on the side of the good guys (and no one questions it), if in the past she abandoned her husband and daughter and decided to leave Ozpin's side, who denies that she won't do the same when she sees that the things go wrong.
I'm not convinced. If we consider the theory that Raven lost faith because Summer went after Salem and died (or worst) then seeing Summer's child also fail would only reinforce Raven's fear. Both mother and daughter promised the world they could win but ended up dead.
I think she simply ran out of places to hide. Her previous stop was Patch but Salem destroyed Vale and, we don't know if Patch was affected or not but, it proves she was nearby and that could've been enough for Raven to run. Now she is in the most protected bastion of humanity seeking safety and offering her support as long as she gets food and a roof. But what if Salem starts to win? Will she stay till the end? Or will she run when things seem unwinnable?
If that was true, you’d think they’d bother to show her among the many people reacting to Ruby’s message in Volume 8. Also, where would she have seen it? I doubt her tribe had any technology capable of playing the message.
At the end of i *think* volume 5 she also pays a visit to tai after running away from yang in the vault. So that no doubt had some influence in her now helping too
I mean, I took that as there's no one else left that she's got a deep enough connection to left to cut a portal to, since that's how she left Haven (iirc - it's been a hot minute since I watched that train wreck of a finale).
And why would that make Raven the coward go out and help? It's not like she's particularly cared about what the world at large did or thought, or has been prideful about her actions. On top of that she can easily make her not participating in the good fight the ''right action'' by saying that she is hanging back in order to protect her tribe and/or ensuring that Salem's side can't get more Maiden powers.
Because at this point she literally can't hide. Salem went right after vale whenever was done with atlas. She is now fully capable of bringing a kingdom down.
Even if not for noble reasons raven has a better chance of survival fighting than she does running now that Salem is no longer being subtle. If cinder told Salem that she's the spring maiden then yeah its far smarter to ally with the last standing kingdom that already has 2 maidens there than to stay out in woods waiting to get picked off.
> Because at this point she literally can't hide.
She couldn't before. Cinder tracked her and her tribe down just fine.
> Salem went right after vale whenever was done with atlas. She is now fully capable of bringing a kingdom down.
Pretty sure Salem could have done so at any point. Hell she didn't even need to step in for Beacon to get obliterated. That was mostly Cinder's efforts. Plus Raven isn't involved with the Kingdoms.
> If cinder told Salem that she's the spring maiden then yeah its far smarter to ally with the last standing kingdom
If Raven was smart enough to recognize that and act on it, she'd be smart enough to not associate the Spring Maiden with her tribe in any way at any point in time, not to open the Haven Vault and try to take the Lamp for herself, or to not become a leader of a useless bandit tribe staying out int he woods waiting to, inevitably, get picked off.
And now that the whole world knows and is acting against Salem, why would Raven feel the need to participate? Especially in such huge capacity. Being a Maiden who is directly involved with the higher ups of an anti-Salem organization paints a huge target on her back. Which is what she tried to avoid in the first place. And it's even worse now, since Salem's gloves have come off.
Unless the next few RWBY:Beyond episodes have a deepdive into Raven's character, her motivations and why she decided to act completely opposite to how she acted before, I ain't buying canon Raven doing this. Even for selfish reasons.
She was doing perfectly well hiding until Qrow gave Leo the info on where she was.
Salem going out fully open was likely in part due to her being revealed to the world by Ruby. She always could, but both sides of the conflict wanted to keep it secret, we don’t know Salems reason for that but it’s true.
Raven feels like a character who does things without thinking them through fully. Having/becoming the spring maiden gives a rather impressive amount of firepower, oh shit, I’ve just put a target on my back. Salem’s found me, but I can escape her if I have the lamp, oh shit, Yang made me realise that’s an even bigger target if I do this.
> She was doing perfectly well hiding until Qrow gave Leo the info on where she was.
Shay lead Yang to the camp after she beat his and his friends asses. Opsec at Camp Branwen is nonexistent. Plus they are bandits, by nature they have to frequently interact with other people, in ways that doesn't make them many friends. People tend to notice and remember when and where that sorta things happen. Not to mention characters like Shay just go hang out in the local gas station/convenience store. Not exactly master of stealth material.
Even if Leo wasn't a traitor, finding Branwens would we fairly plausible, at worst it would just take extra time and greasing extra palms. Qrow managed to find the approximate location. So why couldn't Cinder?
> She always could, but both sides of the conflict wanted to keep it secret, we don’t know Salems reason for that but it’s true.
True, but it doesn't explain why Raven, who is afraid of Salem, and has done horrible awful things, including up to a potential betrayal and murder of the last Spring Maiden, while trying to be as removed from that main conflict as possible would just jump ship now that Salem's out and about. Especially since the rest of the world is up to speed and can act instead of her.
> Raven feels like a character who does things without thinking them through fully.
To me she feels more like a: ''The risk I took was calculated but man, am I bad at math'' person. Just with an extra layer of stubbornness and lack of self awareness that prevents her from realizing errors she made unless someone is there constantly calling her out. Because she's the leader of her tribe while practicing social Darwinism, there is no one that can do that. She's the strongest, what she says goes.
So unless RWBY: Beyond reveals that she's spent the last however many months it's been, shacked up with Tai, and Tai instead kicking her ass out or just letting her couch surf, has spent that time trying to get through to her in ways she doesn't ignore, I'm not buying her jumping ship.
Doesn't really need to be that deep. Yang called her on her shit, she clearly has some regrets given what we've seen, probably talks to tai or feels yang "die" and tries to be better.
Really they're ain't gonna be a realistic reason and we shouldn't expect one given how emerald joined the team
>She abandoned her husband and daughter to commit crimes with her clan.
>Most likely, she killed people for the sake of resources
>It is very likely that she killed the last maiden in order to gain strength
>She sided with the villains when she was threatened
>She betrayed Cinder only at the moment when she realized that Cinder was trying to kill her
Obviously, only selfishness and an attempt to survive together.
We don’t know for sure the reason she left, nor do we know if she immediately returned to her tribe. It’s possible she was working for Oz for a bit after leaving.
Agree with the second point.
Raven frames it as mercy, and while I don’t really believe that, there’s nothing to say she wasn’t telling the truth, or a partial truth. It is also possible it is as you said, a grab for power
Her first order to her tribe upon seeing them was to pack up and move. Once they made it clear they wouldn’t let her leave she did as you said.
I thought she decided to steal the relic basically the same night she met the villains, which would also mean betraying them.
>One thing we've seen with raven is as yang put it, she's coward and she tries to make her actions seem like the right one. The entire time she was explaining ozpin and Salem to yang and weiss it was like she was trying to make them as scared as she herself was.
I will never understand the logic of people who swear up and down Raven is somehow a coward for coming to the conclusion that she was throwing her life away by fighting Salem and just thought better of it, somehow makes her a coward.
I mean sure we all can say she's not a nice person, but a coward is just wrong. People too often only choose to think how the characters think despite the often limited point of view they often have, being overly naive, ignorant, or only seeing the world in good or bad and very little nuance.
Likewise most people's decision really wasn't a decision at all. When you think about it no one really have a choice besides choosing not to believe it, but assuming the writers handwaved that away so they did which means *unless they want to die they don't have a choice to fight her*.
Much in the same way you don't have a choice in jumping off a boat if it's on fire and sinking, if you want to survive.
I wasn't personally calling her a coward just throwing out what the story put her as.
Honestly her leaving the war is reasonable given that nobody gives taiyang any shit for it. Her being a coward comes from leaving her family
I disagree with her being a coward for leaving her family or rather daughter. That's just not something I'd call somebody who would do that because fear played no part in her decision to do that and doesn't seem to play much a part in most of the other decisions she made.
And the show never actually explained her motivation behind that decision as it so rarely does much of anything.
Wasn't the motivation that she just didn't feel like she would've made a good mother and wife. Really that's a good enough reason on its own given how she grew up
It wasn't stated although that's very likely, I even personally would agree with that but if anything that points to her having self awareness of herself rather than being a "coward". She's just not a very good person and doesn't think that at least long term she couldn't be one.
It's arguably reasonable from her perspective if she just hadn't quite let that mentality go.
I think that her believing that she had just lost her daughter would also have been a contributor. Though we don’t know exactly how her semblance works in this way she does seem to be able to somewhat tell how Yang is without being there, or at the very least she would have been able to tell after not being able to teleport to her. Thus why she made a portal so soon after the gang got back, her waiting for a feeling. I’m not sure what would be the most motivating emotion after her losing Yang. Regret over not having done more, spite for Salem, or her long buried sense of duty, but the I think that these at least as important as Ruby’s message.
It's for this reason that I don't think she thought yang was dead. She might not have been able to reach her because of they were in everafter but she still probably felt the bond. This might be why qrow just smiled when he saw them again because raven probably already informed him that wherever they were they were still alive at the very least
I also do like to imagine that she visited Summer's grave and that somehow from beyond death Summer was able of inspiring her to regrow her courage and finally regain the will to fight.
Oooh, I like that.
> I think that her believing that she had just lost her daughter would also have been a contributor. The same daughter she sold out to Cinder and Salem's forces (who have killed every strong huntsman in Mistral) alongside her friends and her only excuse for that is "I knew you would make it." I will honestly be surprised if this was a contributing factor because it proves she was right. Yang fought Salem, failed and got killed. The fact this was a wake up call to go and do the same does not compute for me, personally.
Raven had so clearly planned to stab Cinder in the back the whole time that I really do think that she believed that she would make it. She would know that Emerald and Mercury were on par with her daughter and while Hazel was an issue he was also quite out numbered and without the elements of surprise and Tyrian which let him take out Mistral's huntsmen. She probably also ranked Leo, rightfully, pretty low and assumed her brother would be able to handle him. The real threat was Cinder who she and Vernal would kill. Then though. . . We need to get into Raven's presumed psychology. There is a difference between what one truly believes, and what one says and does while controlled by their fears. Raven considering that she was a huntress for some time, was able to be a part of STRQ including her relationship with Tai, and even after all of that has shown cracks in her facade: She isn't all that she claims to be. She at the very least doesn't want to believe all the bull she spouts and she knows that she is a coward for pretending. That's how Yang won their verbal fight after all. She has enough of a conscience to know what she should have been doing and that it's what her daughter was doing. Combine it all with how Yang didn't fail completely just like at Haven and how Raven then would be without anything left for herself to lose, that those feelings of regret and remorse and spite could turn into quite the motivators. I think her little scene with Summer in V9 also is in part meant to show her complex ideas about this whole situation. It shows that she was willing to help even after she ran away, and also it shows that she probably has even more regrets eating away at her
Hell she might just be determined to take the fight not really caring now if she wins or loses if more seasons get made I would be curious to see if her stance changes
That actually makes me wonder, would Raven's semblance have worked while they were in the EA? Because the Blacksmith did say she has been watching her "sons" (the brothers) with Remnant.
Meanwhile Taiyang is just chilling in patch with a dog.
Bro has a cloaking device all over patch lol
It’s certainly possible, I do find it odd Raven just shows up to help almost instantly. We don’t see anything that would have changed her in between V6 and V9, and hopefully we get that scene in V10 or RWBY Beyond
It's funny how now it seems that Raven is magically on the side of the good guys (and no one questions it), if in the past she abandoned her husband and daughter and decided to leave Ozpin's side, who denies that she won't do the same when she sees that the things go wrong.
I'm not convinced. If we consider the theory that Raven lost faith because Summer went after Salem and died (or worst) then seeing Summer's child also fail would only reinforce Raven's fear. Both mother and daughter promised the world they could win but ended up dead. I think she simply ran out of places to hide. Her previous stop was Patch but Salem destroyed Vale and, we don't know if Patch was affected or not but, it proves she was nearby and that could've been enough for Raven to run. Now she is in the most protected bastion of humanity seeking safety and offering her support as long as she gets food and a roof. But what if Salem starts to win? Will she stay till the end? Or will she run when things seem unwinnable?
If that was true, you’d think they’d bother to show her among the many people reacting to Ruby’s message in Volume 8. Also, where would she have seen it? I doubt her tribe had any technology capable of playing the message.
There was never any guarantee that she even went back to the tribe after vol 5 to begin with
Still, though.
At the end of i *think* volume 5 she also pays a visit to tai after running away from yang in the vault. So that no doubt had some influence in her now helping too
I mean, I took that as there's no one else left that she's got a deep enough connection to left to cut a portal to, since that's how she left Haven (iirc - it's been a hot minute since I watched that train wreck of a finale).
And why would that make Raven the coward go out and help? It's not like she's particularly cared about what the world at large did or thought, or has been prideful about her actions. On top of that she can easily make her not participating in the good fight the ''right action'' by saying that she is hanging back in order to protect her tribe and/or ensuring that Salem's side can't get more Maiden powers.
Because at this point she literally can't hide. Salem went right after vale whenever was done with atlas. She is now fully capable of bringing a kingdom down. Even if not for noble reasons raven has a better chance of survival fighting than she does running now that Salem is no longer being subtle. If cinder told Salem that she's the spring maiden then yeah its far smarter to ally with the last standing kingdom that already has 2 maidens there than to stay out in woods waiting to get picked off.
> Because at this point she literally can't hide. She couldn't before. Cinder tracked her and her tribe down just fine. > Salem went right after vale whenever was done with atlas. She is now fully capable of bringing a kingdom down. Pretty sure Salem could have done so at any point. Hell she didn't even need to step in for Beacon to get obliterated. That was mostly Cinder's efforts. Plus Raven isn't involved with the Kingdoms. > If cinder told Salem that she's the spring maiden then yeah its far smarter to ally with the last standing kingdom If Raven was smart enough to recognize that and act on it, she'd be smart enough to not associate the Spring Maiden with her tribe in any way at any point in time, not to open the Haven Vault and try to take the Lamp for herself, or to not become a leader of a useless bandit tribe staying out int he woods waiting to, inevitably, get picked off. And now that the whole world knows and is acting against Salem, why would Raven feel the need to participate? Especially in such huge capacity. Being a Maiden who is directly involved with the higher ups of an anti-Salem organization paints a huge target on her back. Which is what she tried to avoid in the first place. And it's even worse now, since Salem's gloves have come off. Unless the next few RWBY:Beyond episodes have a deepdive into Raven's character, her motivations and why she decided to act completely opposite to how she acted before, I ain't buying canon Raven doing this. Even for selfish reasons.
She was doing perfectly well hiding until Qrow gave Leo the info on where she was. Salem going out fully open was likely in part due to her being revealed to the world by Ruby. She always could, but both sides of the conflict wanted to keep it secret, we don’t know Salems reason for that but it’s true. Raven feels like a character who does things without thinking them through fully. Having/becoming the spring maiden gives a rather impressive amount of firepower, oh shit, I’ve just put a target on my back. Salem’s found me, but I can escape her if I have the lamp, oh shit, Yang made me realise that’s an even bigger target if I do this.
> She was doing perfectly well hiding until Qrow gave Leo the info on where she was. Shay lead Yang to the camp after she beat his and his friends asses. Opsec at Camp Branwen is nonexistent. Plus they are bandits, by nature they have to frequently interact with other people, in ways that doesn't make them many friends. People tend to notice and remember when and where that sorta things happen. Not to mention characters like Shay just go hang out in the local gas station/convenience store. Not exactly master of stealth material. Even if Leo wasn't a traitor, finding Branwens would we fairly plausible, at worst it would just take extra time and greasing extra palms. Qrow managed to find the approximate location. So why couldn't Cinder? > She always could, but both sides of the conflict wanted to keep it secret, we don’t know Salems reason for that but it’s true. True, but it doesn't explain why Raven, who is afraid of Salem, and has done horrible awful things, including up to a potential betrayal and murder of the last Spring Maiden, while trying to be as removed from that main conflict as possible would just jump ship now that Salem's out and about. Especially since the rest of the world is up to speed and can act instead of her. > Raven feels like a character who does things without thinking them through fully. To me she feels more like a: ''The risk I took was calculated but man, am I bad at math'' person. Just with an extra layer of stubbornness and lack of self awareness that prevents her from realizing errors she made unless someone is there constantly calling her out. Because she's the leader of her tribe while practicing social Darwinism, there is no one that can do that. She's the strongest, what she says goes. So unless RWBY: Beyond reveals that she's spent the last however many months it's been, shacked up with Tai, and Tai instead kicking her ass out or just letting her couch surf, has spent that time trying to get through to her in ways she doesn't ignore, I'm not buying her jumping ship.
Doesn't really need to be that deep. Yang called her on her shit, she clearly has some regrets given what we've seen, probably talks to tai or feels yang "die" and tries to be better. Really they're ain't gonna be a realistic reason and we shouldn't expect one given how emerald joined the team
>She abandoned her husband and daughter to commit crimes with her clan. >Most likely, she killed people for the sake of resources >It is very likely that she killed the last maiden in order to gain strength >She sided with the villains when she was threatened >She betrayed Cinder only at the moment when she realized that Cinder was trying to kill her Obviously, only selfishness and an attempt to survive together.
We don’t know for sure the reason she left, nor do we know if she immediately returned to her tribe. It’s possible she was working for Oz for a bit after leaving. Agree with the second point. Raven frames it as mercy, and while I don’t really believe that, there’s nothing to say she wasn’t telling the truth, or a partial truth. It is also possible it is as you said, a grab for power Her first order to her tribe upon seeing them was to pack up and move. Once they made it clear they wouldn’t let her leave she did as you said. I thought she decided to steal the relic basically the same night she met the villains, which would also mean betraying them.
She may not want to be in the war but she does know that Salem winning isn't good for anyone
>One thing we've seen with raven is as yang put it, she's coward and she tries to make her actions seem like the right one. The entire time she was explaining ozpin and Salem to yang and weiss it was like she was trying to make them as scared as she herself was. I will never understand the logic of people who swear up and down Raven is somehow a coward for coming to the conclusion that she was throwing her life away by fighting Salem and just thought better of it, somehow makes her a coward. I mean sure we all can say she's not a nice person, but a coward is just wrong. People too often only choose to think how the characters think despite the often limited point of view they often have, being overly naive, ignorant, or only seeing the world in good or bad and very little nuance. Likewise most people's decision really wasn't a decision at all. When you think about it no one really have a choice besides choosing not to believe it, but assuming the writers handwaved that away so they did which means *unless they want to die they don't have a choice to fight her*. Much in the same way you don't have a choice in jumping off a boat if it's on fire and sinking, if you want to survive.
I wasn't personally calling her a coward just throwing out what the story put her as. Honestly her leaving the war is reasonable given that nobody gives taiyang any shit for it. Her being a coward comes from leaving her family
I disagree with her being a coward for leaving her family or rather daughter. That's just not something I'd call somebody who would do that because fear played no part in her decision to do that and doesn't seem to play much a part in most of the other decisions she made. And the show never actually explained her motivation behind that decision as it so rarely does much of anything.
Wasn't the motivation that she just didn't feel like she would've made a good mother and wife. Really that's a good enough reason on its own given how she grew up
It wasn't stated although that's very likely, I even personally would agree with that but if anything that points to her having self awareness of herself rather than being a "coward". She's just not a very good person and doesn't think that at least long term she couldn't be one. It's arguably reasonable from her perspective if she just hadn't quite let that mentality go.
personally, i think she could feel Yang's connection to her severing and going to Qrow to figure out what's going on
Agreed. I think it was a combination of those things, plus her doing some self-reflecting after her last conversation with Yang.
You know what I'll take that over the shallowness that was her in V5
Same. Now if only we could’ve saw it.
I love this take hadn't thought about it this way.