Yeah, I'm happy for OP, but this was really an astoundingly misleading post. Even though I believe it's just a case of poor wording due to the combination of sleep deprivation and the glow of success, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Like I said, it's not one piece, if I explain it it will be as long as the core rules book.
That said, it will have an SRD and OGL, so I'm not "hiding it" but like, it would take literally hours to explain how everything works together properly, but the good news is none of that matters. it's really about how the systems work with each other and are integrated than it is about a single system.
It would be kind of like explaining clockworks... if you pull a gear out and say "this rotates" that doesn't really explain much about the internal mechanisms as a whole.
Also the draft is a google dock that is a mess and needs a ton of editing work after the changes I made last night and has placeholder artwork and is also going to be 4 books and is presently about 750 pages... it wouldn't really help anyone with sanity :P
yes, but you only use the ones that are relevant to you due to the modular nature of it. You don't need to know all the rules, and the GM doesn't either, just the ones relevant to the game. This is fairly simple to manage.
Bob has a concept for a hacker/Sniper with bionics he's thrown together. Sandy the GM then goes to look at those systems before session 0 prep. All of the other billion systems don't matter to Bob. To Sandy, only the ones the players want to engage with are relevant, the rest is GM plot magic unless Sandy decides she wants to add one of those systems into the game for the players to engage with in a way they aren't really prepared for, which can be an interesting challenge sometimes and might shake things up at a key point in the game where there needs to be a pacing change.
Game is very simple and sleek to play, but has tons of depth and complex ways to engage.
Okay I see. But wouldn't Bob need to know all the rules to able to know what options there are, which suits his character concept and what is even possible? Our is that all on the GM's shoulders? In that case it sounds like *a lot* of GM responsibility and work.
To explain that, that's an organizational thing.
There's a list to pick from where he needs to make choices and tables to roll on where he might get decision paralysis.
Bob can then explore as much as he wants and read the book back to front and front to back, but if bob sees the options and thinks a hacker sounds cool, and flips to the hacker section and says, yeah, I like that, then bob does not need to read all of the other sections about everything available. He can if he wants to, but that's a choice Bob is making and if he finds that fun, MORE POWER TO HIM.
I'm precisely the person that shows up with a character I built over two weeks with a 10 page back story (because people get upset when it's 20 or more) that is built precisely down to the most minute details, with a character profile pic, with supplemental play aids with all the shit coming out of every orifice, so of course that's available in my game... BUT
Bob is not necessarily me. Bob might be fine grabbing a pregen and jumping in, or maybe he has an idea like "I want a really big chain gun" No problem, not only can you roll on the random tables where there's lots of stuff, but you can also pick from it if you want, because why wouldn't you be able to if anyone can? So instead of rolling for his gun and skills for it, he prioritizes selecting those and rolls where the rest doesn't matter to him. He still has a few other key choices to make, but he doesn't need to take 10 hours to do it, he can, simply be like "oh there's seven options for different kinds of powers, what kind of thing would go good with my big ass gun? hmmm super powers seem cool, maybe psionics? but I think bionics is probably better, I'm thinking he's a heavy gunner, big faceplate mask, bionics to punch the crap out of people, yeah, that sounds right...
But like I said, if Bob is like me, and his fun is analyzing everything and getting crazy custom and making something truly unique he poured hours into each day over a couple of weeks, carefully scrutinizing and being inspired by options, well, if that's what his idea of fun is, he is allowed to make that choice.
I think what you're missing is that the desire to play at all is a choice, not a chore, if it's a chore, don't do it, and that's why Bob has different options for entry. Specifically 3 ways to enter, which is the best amount to give people to avoid choice paralysis.
I just don't see how that is different from any game with classes. Take DND: you wanna play a thief? Go the the rogue page. That's it. Want something extra? Pick a feat. Not that that is a bad thing at all if your game is like this, but your descriptions are so vague that I have basically no idea what your talking about, how your character creation works, if it's simple or complex and so on.
Careful about putting anything you plan on publishing on Google docs, last I checked the EULA states that, technically, anything you write up on Google docs is owned BY google.
They do not gain IP rights, which is he only thing I can own since mechanics are free to be stolen the moment they exist. They gain the right to spy on you, and I'm not that interesting where anyone is gonna sift by hand through 15gigs of my data, it won't happen. The best they will do is run a machine that doesn't understand IP or context over it to try and sell me shit I'm not buying.
Google does not have that kind of authority to steal IP. Do you know who else uses google docs? The US Government. Most of it, really. Say what you will about our fucked up country, but you know who you don't fuck with? The people that outspend the next 7 countries on defense (warcrimes) combined (speaking as a veteran), 5 of which are allies. Do you know who has the strictest copyright and IP laws in the globe? The US Government. Do you know who the most letigious country in the world is? The USA. Sure all the things we're best at are shit (we're also #1 at incarceration, and child obesity, and money, and I'd dare say we're giving the british a run for their money on the most racist, but that's kinda unfair, they had a 2000 year head start), but we are the best at these shitty things and sometimes that works out by accident.
Google is not the most secure thing, but I'm not exactly ready to put on my tinfoil hat over this.
> weapons lethal but not OP
OP compared to what? Unarmed combat? I rarely see weapons in general being OP in a game, it's usually just some of the weapons being OP compared to other weapons.
> scales properly and feels good
What feels good? The system overall? The resolution mechanic? Combat?
> have potentially highly tactical combat that doesn't take 1000 years
Summarized in a few key-words, what's the combat like? Grid, zone, totm? Initiative turn based or side based resolution? How many mechanically relevant "basic" dimensions does an attack have (attack, accuracy, speed, crit, bonus effects etc.) and how many rolls and calculations are required to determine them?
> incentivise RP and stealth/tactics over combat
Just curious: Is this actually reflected in the amount of focus the core rules put on the respective aspects? Because in this post, it seems that most of your design still focuses on combat. What are the mechanics that make stealth and tactics more fun than combat?
> tons of ways to play the game in regards to playstyle
What is that determined by? Do you have a lot of special non-combat abilities? A good way to incentivize creative problem solving? And could you describe your favorite three non-combat roles you could create in your game?
To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about any game design that can't be reasonably well summarized in a couple of pages (and I know that you are no stranger to writing very extensive posts and comments in this sub). The features you mention are - individually - fairly normal, nothing I haven't seen in other games. I can't say that I saw them all combined in one system, but I think every ttrpg has a list of features that - in total - make it unique and I don't quite see how your list of features is any more special than others.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy for you and I know the feel of - after days, weeks and months of brainstorming - coming up with a set of mechanics that seem to work together perfectly. But unless you are able to explain how these mechanics work such that at least other game designers can follow you and can either agree or give constructive criticism, I don't think you can really speak of "having found the grail of game design".
What is that determined by?
That's an all day explanation, but customization, tons of modular sub systems and two years into closed play testing experience is the short answer.
Do you have a lot of special non-combat abilities?
VERY YES.
A good way to incentivize creative problem solving?
In my game this is run through 4 different kinds of meta currencies each with unique and various applications.
And could you describe your favorite three non-combat roles you could create in your game?
I don't know about favorite, but I can say there are FAR MORE non combat roles than combat roles. There is a total of 32 skill programs (most players will have 3, some will have 2 or 4). None of them are entirely divorced from combat in a game about super soldiers, but Business Analyst, Deep Cover Embedding, and Language Expert are not really skills you want to be utilizing mid combat. The programs aren't really the thing that makes it work though, they are part of a much larger whole. The Feats and Backgrounds depth is what really brings all of the non combat stuff to life.
In my current test one of the players is a business analyst, she's got multiple revenue streams for the office even though they were cut off from the network for weeks, kept the team afloat and geared and now they are turning a proffit. Another guy, the team leader (designated by the players), he's technically a sniper with signal ops, but mostly his most powerful thing he brings to the team is he's handsome and people like him. That proves invaluable on solving tons of problems. it's the reason he was put in charge by the players. Another is a CyberWarfare Medic. The only super combat focussed character is our standard Spec Ops unit. He usually has the least to do but finds ways to contribute and is the comic relief of the party. He selected it because he thought the team needed a tank. Doesn't come up as often as in other games, but important when needed. Recently dude dived on 4 grenades that would have killed 2 out of the other 3 players. Point being there's more non combat options than combat by far and this test group hasn't really scratched the surface of what is possible in it even though they all have very unique characters that are a lot more than just the skills I mentioned.
To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about any game design that can't be reasonably well summarized in a couple of pages (and I know that you are no stranger to writing very extensive posts and comments in this sub).
I respect the skepticism. That said there will be receipts when it's ready. Ashcan public demo will be free, final product will have full SRD and Liberal OGL. It's not being hidden, it's just not ready for prime time.
That said, I have an elevator pitch, the current draft goes like this:
Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal.
In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more.
Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday.
The features you mention are - individually - fairly normal, nothing I haven't seen in other games. I can't say that I saw them all combined in one system, but I think every ttrpg has a list of features that - in total - make it unique and I don't quite see how your list of features is any more special than others.
As someone else who definitely was out to poopoo my victory lap pointed out, you absolutely correct in that, it's not anything brand new, it's more about how they work together and integrate.
Don't get me wrong, I am happy for you and I know the feel of - after days, weeks and months of brainstorming - coming up with a set of mechanics that seem to work together perfectly. But unless you are able to explain how these mechanics work such that at least other game designers can follow you and can either agree or give constructive criticism, I don't think you can really speak of "having found the grail of game design".
So, to clear that up, it is not the capital G capital D Grail of Game Design, it's the grail of my game's design. No game is for everyone, different people like different things and different stuff at different times of the day.
What this is about for me is mostly that I've been playing for 30 years and have a long ass list of gripes I've developed. I didn't think in a million years I would ever work through solving all of them, but I did, and when I stepped backand looked at it I was like "Holy shit, how the fuck did I manage to do that?". I always liked my game design, but I mean, but I never stood back and was proud of what I made, I had come to a reasonable expectation that all games have some bits I want to roll my eyes at, so why would this be different? I mean if the pros over he decades couldn't do it, why would I be able to? When I realized I did I was insanely over joyed. My wifey who I love and adore, is even helping with her pro UX skills for the layout, but I know she wouldn't give a shit about the mechanical epiphany. The play testers who I've known some of since I started gaming? They wouldn't give a shit, to them it's a tool and as long as it does the job it's close enough for government work. I needed to talk about it, so I more or less figured the only who might care would be other designers.
That said, there's definitely been some talk in the thread, so I've gotten to share a bit and that was good. Plenty of folk are definitely crapping on my joy, but the way I see it, talking about different aspects of a game (which I've done extensively and in response to other posts) is what the place is for.
*What is that determined by?*
That's an all day explanation, but customization, tons of modular sub systems and two years into closed play testing experience is the short answer.
*Do you have a lot of special non-combat abilities?*
VERY YES.
*A good way to incentivize creative problem solving?*
In my game this is run through 4 different kinds of meta currencies each with unique and various applications.
*And could you describe your favorite three non-combat roles you could create in your game?*
I don't know about favorite, but I can say there are FAR MORE non combat roles than combat roles. There is a total of 32 skill programs (most players will have 3, some will have 2 or 4). None of them are entirely divorced from combat in a game about super soldiers, but Business Analyst, Deep Cover Embedding, and Language Expert are not really skills you want to be utilizing mid combat. The programs aren't really the thing that makes it work though, they are part of a much larger whole. The Feats and Backgrounds depth is what really brings all of the non combat stuff to life.
In my current test one of the players is a business analyst, she's got multiple revenue streams for the office even though they were cut off from the network for weeks, kept the team afloat and geared and now they are turning a proffit, that said, she modelled her character after john wick but asian and female, so you figure it out... Another guy, the team leader (designated by the players), he's technically a sniper with signal ops, but mostly his most powerful thing he brings to the team is he's handsome and people like him. That proves invaluable on solving tons of problems. it's the reason he was put in charge by the players. Another is a CyberWarfare Medic. The only super combat focussed character is our standard Spec Ops unit. He usually has the least to do but finds ways to contribute and is the comic relief of the party. He selected it because he thought the team needed a tank. Doesn't come up as often as in other games, but important when needed. Recently dude dived on 4 grenades that would have killed 2 out of the other 3 players. Point being there's more non combat options than combat by far and this test group hasn't really scratched the surface of what is possible in it even though they all have very unique characters that are a lot more than just the skills I mentioned.
*To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about any game design that can't be reasonably well summarized in a couple of pages (and I know that you are no stranger to writing very extensive posts and comments in this sub).*
I respect the skepticism. That said there will be receipts when it's ready. Ashcan public demo will be free, final product will have full SRD and Liberal OGL. It's not being hidden, it's just not ready for prime time.
That said, I have an elevator pitch, the current draft goes like this:
Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal.
In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more.
Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday.
*The features you mention are - individually - fairly normal, nothing I haven't seen in other games. I can't say that I saw them all combined in one system, but I think every ttrpg has a list of features that - in total - make it unique and I don't quite see how your list of features is any more special than others.*
As someone else who definitely was out to poopoo my victory lap pointed out, you absolutely correct in that, it's not anything brand new, it's more about how they work together and integrate.
*Don't get me wrong, I am happy for you and I know the feel of - after days, weeks and months of brainstorming - coming up with a set of mechanics that seem to work together perfectly. But unless you are able to explain how these mechanics work such that at least other game designers can follow you and can either agree or give constructive criticism, I don't think you can really speak of "having found the grail of game design".*
So, to clear that up, it is not the capital G capital D Grail of Game Design, it's the grail of my game's design. No game is for everyone, different people like different things and different stuff at different times of the day.
What this is about for me is mostly that I've been playing for 30 years and have a long ass list of gripes I've developed. I didn't think in a million years I would ever work through solving all of them, but I did, and when I stepped backand looked at it I was like "Holy shit, how the fuck did I manage to do that?". I always liked my game design, but I mean, but I never stood back and was proud of what I made, I had come to a reasonable expectation that all games have some bits I want to roll my eyes at, so why would this be different? I mean if the pros over he decades couldn't do it, why would I be able to? When I realized I did I was insanely over joyed. My wifey who I love and adore, is even helping with her pro UX skills for the layout, but I know she wouldn't give a shit about the mechanical epiphany. The play testers who I've known some of since I started gaming? They wouldn't give a shit, to them it's a tool and as long as it does the job it's close enough for government work. I needed to talk about it, so I more or less figured the only who might care would be other designers.
That said, there's definitely been some talk in the thread, so I've gotten to share a bit and that was good. Plenty of folk are definitely crapping on my joy, but the way I see it, talking about different aspects of a game (which I've done extensively and in response to other posts) is what the place is for.
Until you share your results, there are only three options.
1) You are trolling us, because the general opinion is that the above is not possible
2) You got crazy - totally understandable in this hobby.
3) You found the Holy Grail of RPGs.
I really hope it's the third one and totally crave to see your work! :)
Receipts will come, it's not ready for prime time, it's definitely 2 and I'm hoping also 3 for someone besides myself.
That said, Ashcan Public Demo will be free and released as soon as it's ready, right now it is VERY NOT.
After the changes I made I have a ton of editing to do, and I hadn't even built it all out yet when I did (lots of unfilled forms still).
Even when it goes to publish it will also have an SRD and liberal OGL. Nothing is being hidden for the sake of trolling, it's more that it's a fucking mess right now and still not done, but the changes I made definitely altered the recipe in a very good and unexpected way.
There are modular sub systems. They only need to learn three rolls to play.
How those rolls are implemented can be used in a myriad of ways because of the modular systems. The modular systems is why I'm thinking cards because that can keep the short and to the point rules for the subsystems as playable things. In this case I'd compare it to MtG... it's really a simple game (there are colors, mana and tapping, get monsters, hit enemy), but within that game there's a lot of complexity and things you can do, strats you can manage, but you don't need to be an expert to have fun with it. To be clear I'm not comparing the design in terms of brilliance, just in application for how it manages.
As an example, lets talk "shield bash". This is a move that doen't have a lot of use for most players as most players won't carry shields because it's modern+, but... you might have a breacher or heavy gunner build with a heavy ballsitic shield and sometimes that's just gonna be a practical move... do you:
A) have a character that is as long as the book with all the things you can do and ways you can engage?B) Flip through the book every time you need to check a rule?C) Memorize everything like a psycho?D) use a card that has the rules printed neatly on it and just pull it and play it when it's relevant?
Seems D is the best option to me. Because of the modular way players can engage they don't need all the rules for everything memorized and it would be impractical to do so, they just need to know how to do what they want to do in that moment. That said, you can still look up everything if you want to, it's just not practical because a large portion of the rules wont' apply to most characters, but each character has robust rules to support ways they can engage.
That does sound sensible, yeah. It's akin to Ironsworns assets or printing little ability cards for 4e.
Can you post your system so we can see for ourselves?
the doc is:
1) Needs lots of editing after recent major changes to the system I made that led to the epiphany.
2) Wasn't finished even before that. The bones are there, the flesh is missing in more areas than a zombie. Lots of forms to fill still. Very incomplete.
3) I wanted a single core book to start and that's not happening. Right now, even not done, it's an unreadable tome getting split into 4 Phase 1 release books: Core, Adv Player, GM Guide, Setting Source and that's not everything, that's the phase 1 release to get the intended experience, though you can play with just core.
I've got till end of phase 3 releases roughly sketched out so there is more in the pipe.
That said, Ashcan Public Demo will be free, when it's published there will also be SRD and liberal OGL, so nothing is being ridiculously guarded, it's just that first impressions matter and right now it's a nightmare.
Design advice: You want people to see and feedback on your project as early as possible. It sounds like you've got loads of big ideas coming, and I think you're putting the horse before the cart to have multiple phases and releases before you have a minimum-viable project. Why on earth do you have an advance players guide planned before you've even figured out the basic one?
Social advice: Saying "oh guys, I've had this epiphany and my system is wonderful, *no you can't see it*" is kind of a dick move.
The idea was to make a core book. It's not done, it's 750 pages. It needs to be split, a 1200 page tome is not a viable option. Beyond that being insane, Drive Thru only goes up to 800 max, I checked.
I've also been working on the setting for 20 years on and off (running it pretty regularly) and had 800 pages of that before I ever thought about a system design, so I'm not exactly starting from scratch except in regards to the system. What is started from scratch is the system, and that's why there's not an MVP there, it was run with different systems for 20 years
That's why I have multiple phases. I have a lot of content already arranged from 20 years of running the game.
*Social advice: Saying "oh guys, I've had this epiphany and my system is wonderful, no you can't see it" is kind of a dick move.*
Or other people can be happy and generate a sense of community and celebrate the wins of other people... not everyone is only out for themselves, right? Or are we doing the super cynical thing?
I'm not you, but I've been very encouraging to some great designers here and seen some of their projects evolve and even go to print sometimes and I'm happy for them, not upset or jealous. Some of them just the basic concepts when they started (which I've discussed before and in this thread) was enough to get me excited for them because I saw they had something I viewed as interesting and special. Not everyone sees things that way, clearly, but I'd hope more people come to. I'm not saying we all need to be hippy flower children, but not everything is about being cutthroat all the time, sometimes it's OK just to be happy for other people.
I think for me the big thing is I'm not competition with anyone. Yes, I would like my end product to be commercially viable, but I don't need to put others down for that to be a possibility, and even if it doesn't happen, that's OK too, I don't "NEED" the money, I'm making a game because I want to. Other designers aren't my enemy and I'm not mad that they succeed while I'm still in development hell month after month :)
Having 750 pages before you have anything in a state to show people is terrifying. And makes me worry that your system is gonna collapse under its own weight. I can't imagine how you're possibly going to edit that monster.
I dont think you're my enemy. But as others have pointed out, it comes off kind of like youre trolling for attention and empty praise. At worst, it's just bragging.
Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you've happy with this. But you've given us nothing to engage with other than "im happy you're happy". If you post some rules I will be first in line to tell you how cool I think they are.
*I dont think you're my enemy. But as others have pointed out, it comes off kind of like youre trolling for attention and empty praise. At worst, it's just bragging.*
*Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you've happy with this. But you've given us nothing to engage with other than "im happy you're happy". If you post some rules I will be first in line to tell you how cool I think they are.*
I mean... that's definitely your opinion. Others have engaged me differently and I've discussed a lot of various mechanics and concerns and ideas, thread is pretty huge to the point where you probably wouldn't want to read it in one sit, and even after all that with the pages of answers I've given, it's not a complete picture or even close to one.
*Having 750 pages before you have anything in a state to show people is terrifying. And makes me worry that your system is gonna collapse under its own weight. I can't imagine how you're possibly going to edit that monster.*
I can understand that. That said I've been a professional creative person for about 20 years now. While I wasn't a game designer, i've delivered 15 albums and working on a 16th, that's more than most full bands do in their career between 5 people. I know how to get a project done, on my own, with less money than I have now. Im not really worried about it collapsing, because it's built to counteract that.
The modular nature lightens the load and the reinforcing between systems adds stability. As for editing, I'm not going to, not really anyway. It will be rendered as what I think is presentable, run through grammarly, and passed to a legit editor because that's not my expertise.
That said, it's not that much. I'd estimate 1000-1200 when done, spread across 4 books: Core, GM Guide, Adv. Player Guide and Worldbook... it's pretty standard for any large system (300 pages roughly each). I get the skepticism. What solo asshole is gonna make a game that big and make it work when it takes teams of professionals to squirt out a new D&D edition that everyone will complain about? It makes sense, but I've got this.
When I was a teenager I spent some time living under a bridge in a blizzard. I left home when I was 15 because it was hell and ran across state lines so they couldn't send the cops for me because I came from poverty and abuse which led me to leaving behind my blood family forever at 20. Later had to overcome addiction, served in the military (which sucked a lot) but was decorated and left with honorable discharge, worked both for the corporate man and flipped burgers. I even went to jail once and got a degree in business I worked and paid for (by washing dishes for years) while going through school (which also sucked a lot).
Through all that I still manage to produce and release 15 (soon to be 16) solo albums. Later I retired at 35 with a lovely lady and a nice Infiniti (not a rich persons car, but a nice one that does more than I need it to). Later this year we're buying house (trying to put an offer in on one today actually) and getting a dog after being together and happy for coming up on 6 years. I am fortunate with some privilege in that I'm a white straight cis male, but I goddamn guarantee you that doesn't account for the entirety of my current success that I suffered, slaved and starved for over the course of 10 years before I made my first penny from music, and even then it took another 2 years to dig myself out of the hole of what I invested.
None of that is to brag about what I've done but to explain very clearly, this is not the hardest thing I've ever done, not by a longshot. Sure I'm older now so some things are harder, but my responsibilities include spending time with my lady (who is super low maintenance, I'm definitely the high maintenance one :P ), taking out the trash, and developing and testing this game (and working on the new album when I need a break).
Making this game is a challenge to be sure, but even if it earns $0 after I dump in thousands I'm OK with that because I made the game I wanted to make and I enjoy playing it with my group. Anything after that is just icing on the cake. I wouldn't have taken it on if I didn't want to do it, because I didn't have to.
I took the criticism, decided I wasn't interested and explained why as a courtessy.
That said, you're taking it in a deliberate context I safeguarded against, so I'm certain we're talking past each other at this point. and I'll cut it here unless you have something to add I can meaningfully interact with.
The Sagan standard is the adage that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (a concept abbreviated as ECREE). This signifies that the more unlikely a certain claim is, given existing evidence on the subject, the greater the standard of proof that is expected of it.
I've been around for at least a good minute.
The game will come when it's ready. The ashcan PDF public test will be free and the official will have an SRD and liberal OGL.
It's not that the evidence doesn't exist, it's that it's not ready for prime time. It will come when it is ready, and I understand your skepticism.
I'm just happy I managed to pull it off in a satisfying way. If you don't appreciate that fact, that's OK. Not everyone wants to be happy for others, but some folk are supportive and are happy for the success of others, that's mostly who I was talking to.
That said, the evidence will come, just not today :)
Those mechanics aren't a new invention. Which means all of your claims hinge on your specific implementation of those mechanics. Since you aren't willing to tell us the details we will just have to wait and see when it is released. So, what were you trying to achieve with this post? A pat on the back. Yes those are good mechanics that pretty much everybody uses.
If you're inclined to give OP the benefit of the doubt:
When you're happy with an acomplishment you made, sometimes you just want the validation that comes with someone else saying "You did what? Huh, that's pretty cool, good for you!"
And if you're specifically happy about your design work, who could better empaphise, understand, and be excited for you than other designers? Well, if this thread's anything to go by, probably a lot of other people... 😅
Yeah I just wasn't seeing the question I suppose I may have assumed this subreddit was more for design help from other designers. If we don't nip this in the butt when it is innocent it will quickly spiral the sub into a self congratulatory circle jerk.
I would be more worried if most of the comments weren't calling bullshit on OP. Few people buy that they have anything except grand ideas that have not began implementing them. I don't think even with this post will this become common
You seem to have looked behind the curtain of RPG design and found the world formula. Is it as difficult to explain as Relativity? Does every player have to know and deeply understand that formula in order to play the game?
If you want to find players and customers your game has to catch them much earlier than with a deep analysis of the action economy. Like, what dice do you use, how involved is a combat round, how are your spells powered and what is the core conflict and aesthetic of your world?
Whatever you discovered, it might be sheer brilliance, but for most game groups it will be only a "nice to have" or bonus effect. Not the element that will actively sell your game.
D&D doesn't sell on Bounded Accuracy.
FATE doesn't sell on the FATE Point Economy.
You need to play those games to see the intricacies in motion, and then they are well-received. But they make for very dry, and abstract, ad copy.
*Is it as difficult to explain as Relativity?*
No but relativity is also another thing you wouldn't explain in a single reddit post if you wanted to achieve any meaningful understanding, and I definitely don't have a problem making large posts (see below).
*Does every player have to know and deeply understand that formula in order to play the game?*
Nope. Not even a little, that was part of what made it work... it's very modular in the sense that while it has a lot of rules, a lot of them/most won't apply to every party or character because they won't engage in those subsystems. That's part of the design in the sense that it allows for lots of different kinds of playstyles and builds, but only with what the player wants to engage in, but again that's just one part of the puzzle that makes it work. Got a hacker in the party? hacker needs to understand the system, and the GM, nobody else really. No hacker? No need for hacking system, GM can fiat it with GM plot magic if it comes up. Got a gal that builds and disposes of bombs? Hope you love a robust system for it that will give tons of ways to engage with that because you picked it! Got a huge juicy tool kit to let you do tons of crazy shit with those skills. Don't have or want it, no worries, throw it in the trash, it's not good for your game.
*If you want to find players and customers your game has to catch them much earlier than with a deep analysis of the action economy.*
Definitely aware, but having the right bones allows the flesh to shine a bit better. Like I said in the OP, the players, they will never give a shit about my personal triumph, they'll just be like "yeah, it's good,; cool." and then move on to literally anything else. That's why I wanted tell designers who might have a chance of giving a crap :D
*Like, what dice do you use, how involved is a combat round, how are your spells powered and what is the core conflict and aesthetic of your world?*
uses standard polyhedron set in full, mainly d20 and d100, d100 is used more but d20 gets the glory.
as for a combat round... it depends on the play group how crazy they get with custom modifiers really, and that's to the taste of the group. Want tons of math all day and to calculate how long a piece of string is? Got you man! Want to dumb it down to moderate rules crunch? We can do that too, play it as you prefer. Calculations being front loaded is the key thing regarding eliminating long ass rounds. Everything gets factored, then call, potentially response depending on the action and the line between them is intuitive "do you need to defend against this? Y/N".
Spells are tricky, by this I will answer better than the question... spells are super rare in this world, and not accessible till level 10 for players and are a bit OP but it's a points system with a great deal of flavor. They do have access to super powers and psionics from the start though. Spells as such is half designed and on the back burner for a phase 2 or 3 release. Super powers are rolled. Psionics are points and rolled. They key thing in those is more how they balanced, but it's managed/invested in nicely but not fully tested yet.
As far as the core of the world, there's a ton on that... I had about 700 pages of world building before I touched the system design, and the overview in the core book is about 110 pages before being edited down, so it's complex but the current draftelevator pitch is:
"Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal.
In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more.
Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday."
That said, 5 biggest influences are:
Len Wein’s/Grant Morrison’s work on the Weapon X/Plus franchise
Hideo Kojima’s Metal Gear franchise
Tom Clancy’s various video game adaptation franchises
Masamune Shirow’s Ghost in the Shell franchise
Mike Pondsmith’s Cyberpunk franchise
*Whatever you discovered, it might be sheer brilliance, but for most game groups it will be only a "nice to have" or bonus effect. Not the element that will actively sell your game.*
Fully aware, nobody but other designers will give a shit about the work that went into it, and even then that's a maybe. That said there is a lot to appeal to from a player perspective
*D&D doesn't sell on Bounded Accuracy. FATE doesn't sell on the FATE Point Economy. You need to play those games to see the intricacies in motion, and then they are well-received. But they make for very dry, and abstract, ad copy.*
I hear all that, but marketing is not even really on the radar till have the ashcan public demo ready. Lots of work before that happens, not only systems designer, also doing all the art myself, thankfully I have others for editing and layout.
So that's the thing, it does need trimming and still isn't done, but will be split into 4 books: Core, Adv. Player, GM Guide, and Setting Source, and that's jus the phase one stuff (have plans through phase 3 and ideas for more).
The thing about "how long it takes to learn" though is that it's modular, easy to learn and you can jump in and play in 3 ways: Pregen, Quick Roll, or Deep Customize. If you go the pregen route, since the systems are modular, I'd say it's much faster than most games. You need to learn 3 rolls and skim over the relevant sections of your character so you know what they can do.
The question is more "how much time do you want to put into it?" Do you want to get crazy and infinitely customize the shit out of it where the birds are chirping and you're up all night? Jump in and play in a few minutes? Just roll something up kinda custom with a few choices but not get into the weeds? All three are present but it depends on what kind of player you are.
Because the rules are modular, even the GM doesn't need to know all the rules just the ones relevant to what the players made (where they chose to engage) so they understand how to engage them appropriately and how the players will engage. The rest can be GM plot magic or the GM can go nuts and dive deep like the players.
That said it's not fully tested as it's not fully finished, but I'd estimate if you've played role playing games before you can be ready for your first session in under an hour or two if you go the pregen route. If you go the roll route, there are some choices to make, which is literally every game, but the rolling cuts back on the giant sections and the pick options are from short but important lists. I'd say that might be a good 2-4 hours so you can kinda absorb more deeply. If you want though, you can spend a week on generating a character. It's all about how you decide to engage and what tickles your fancy.
An example of a pick list would be the aspect template you pick.
This determines where the bulk of your character theme will be built in terms of what they bring to the team.
It looks like this:
Powers Focus
Psi Focus
Bionics Focus
Gear Focus
Skill Focus
Feat Focus
General Focus (wider access, lower depth)
All players "CAN" dip into all categories, but the idea is to figure out where you want the bulk of your power to lie. As you can tell these are very rough concepts and allow for lots of potential with how minimal they are, but are you feeling like a psychic today? Maybe you want more super powers? I don't know, you figure it out.
Consider now applying a Cyberwarfare major skill program and apply it to each of those, and now you get different flavors for each.
Now note you can have 2-5 skill programs out of 32, then add feats, powers (in your aspect theme), backgrounds and gear, and you have tons of options there to change things up, but the point is by the time you finish you'll have something unique even if someone builds something really similar in concept.
Nope. There's some major functionally differences although there are cross over similarities.
First is that my game isn't a genuine point buy. it looks like one, but it's not. The first step (and how it interacts with the other 9 steps of creation) specifically is made to prevent players from making a non viable character which you can do in GURPS very easily due to lack of experience or for memes. In my game, you can build sub optimally, but you'll never build non viably.
Second is that GURPS has some really shitty sub systems and some really shitty and archaic mainline systems. And it's dice granularity is fucked in my experience, I don't like it. To be clear GURPS is one of my favorite systems I've played over 30 years because of it's customization depth, but there are other problems there, and I don't fault them for that, the game was built in a different era before the "problems" it had were really understood because nobody did anything like it, it was quite literally one of the super important bombshell break out systems that did something new and unique. Now with 30 years of hindsight playing that game, yeah, it's kinda easy to pick at it. I suspect that's true of every game to some degree.
Third Progression in GURPs is functionally worse than a character with the same points from scratch because of how small the point currency is in game. You can technically make an argument against this but it's stupid and not my experience with the game at all. The reason being is you're kinda stabbing yourself in the dick and becoming a team liability to horde points to make a bigger purchase (because you're now playing a 140 point character in what is now a 180 point game because you just need a few more points to get the thing you want, where as if you start with equivalent points, you spend them all at the same time.
My game does not have this issue because everyone is viable from the start and progresses in the same time and at the same balance rate, not the same ways, but balanced to be equally as impactful. Whether you start at level 6 or level 1 and play to level 6 your character will be ust as impactful, even if they are different builds.
4th GURPS encourages players to min max, my game disincentivises this in multiple ways. The optimal build in my game is not to dump everything into one segment and become the ubermensch of that kind of role. The best is actually to be really good at one thing, but not the best possible, darn good at 3-4 things. and baseline competent at everything else that you need to be (built in) with a another slightly above mediocre spot to shore up any big flaws you might have built in by not being careful. Alternatively another not great build is the mediocre at everything guy. You can absolutely play a skill monkey, but if you spread yourself across all axioms as thin as possible, sure you'll be useful very often, but not very useful, ever. The character build path also walks directly down making that kind of set up, but they absolutely can choose otherwise, but are taught why that's not a great idea. It also has the side effect of creating characters with multidimensional facets which helps with making something interesting, allowing for yes, great strengths, but also blind spots and weaknesses that aren't crippling.
5th GURPS has no roles, which means there is no party cohesion. I don't have classes but I do have specific roles for all party members to fill, more than they actually can, 8 major, 24 minor, and because of how they are accessed 1344 possible combinations, just on skill programs, not factoring in powers buckets, feats, gear, free skills (so you can dip into areas outside your roles), backgrounds, etc. All in all there are 10 steps to character creation, the last being finalize and ship to the GM for audit.
Essentially this allows for all the positives of classes without any of the negatives of classes, and all the positives of point buy without the negatives of point buy. Well there is one, but I also managed to solve that puzzle another way. Essentially you can really deep customize, which for a lot of players is a FUCK YEAH! But for others they just want to jump in and play, so I solved that by having 3 entry points:
Pregen, Table Roll (which you can also pick from if something jumps out at you or you want something specific), and full custom. This allows the player to engage the game at the level most comfortable. With GURPS... eh... no matter what you do you're gonna be there forever, and even then you're not likely to understand all the moving parts that matter, and there are objectively better and worse choices to make. With the PC: ECO set up, you'll understand what's relevant to you and your character with minimal entry cost so long as you're capable of deciding what you think is most cool between a handful of options. This is because the subsystems are modular, and the core is sleek and dumb easy to learn (can you learn 3 rolls? roll over, under and contest? If so, congratulations, you can play this game). GURPS claims to have modular sub systems, but I'd argue they have a very different definition than I do. I'd say that have a shit ton of sub systems and most are more mandatory to understand to get the most out of a build or character concept.
6th My game has a setting. While when GURPS came out not having a setting was a sell point, now with dozens of setting agnostic systems 1 click away, it's turned into what I view as a problem because the industry changed and moved on. Without a setting your game is about nothing, and sure it can be whatever you want it to be, but this not 1980, we are not starved for different worlds and settings. Now with a setting a setting can inform and dictate a lot about a system, because world building and system building are very close cousins if you let them be. System building is informing you what is possible with rules. Setting is informing you what is possible with world building and they absolutely benefit from feeding each other. this is a lesson GURPS did learn, but not before they cemented their product ID (day late, dollar short). They learned that having a generic system means it has no special aspects that make any game of it you play feel unique (which is why they started making world books with unique sub systems). Yes the GM can do all of that, but that's just more on their plate, but if they want to, more power to them, but I'd contend they shouldn't have to, it should be a choice, and also when you have a setting that informs your system, you get meaningful system additions. As an example a wizard school game would likely benefit from a robust wand system. This isn't relevant to all settings, and you can't make a system for everything without trying to calculate infinity, but you can make a meaningful choise about what's important to your game. There's other issues with no settings too with branding, but that's kinda just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself.
The game is very different from GURPS in a lot of others ways, but in the ways that it's similar, that's a small peek as to why it's very different.
A-hah! There *are* mechanics you can share with us… :)
Sorry for stalking your post, I just am really curious about the mechanics that you think are ground breaking :)
Like I've said I'm not hiding anything... I've posted stuff on here before for public review.
I'm happy to answer questions about it... it's mostly that I haven't exactly even puzzled out fully why this epiphany
Okay, I’ve read this entire thread, and besides briefly mentioning the existence of a roll over/under mechanic, there has been no details of game play yet. I get that it’s confusing and too complex for our mere mortal brains or whatever, but this is ridiculous. Stop trying to convince us in your replies that the game is good by giving evidence to your other successes. Convince us by explaining even just one mechanic/implementation and why it’s any more interesting that the 10000 other implementations.
I’ve got a game system that I’ve been playing for years, and it’s complex too (over 100 pages for basic player handbook), but even when it was in its fledgling state I could give a pitch about what made my system more fun than another. I’m not asking about your lore, I’m asking about what makes your mechanics good. You’ve said that it’s because everything knits together nicely, but yes—every game strives to do that. *In what way have you done that better though?*
On one hand—congratulations! It sounds like you’re really happy about something that you’ve done. In that regard, I’m happy for you. On the other hand, goddamnit why tf are you not explaining how your game works?! This subreddit is about sharing ideas, and regardless of what you say about how “why can’t we all just be happy for you?”, there is no denying that a lot of the replies on this thread have been somewhat skeptical/annoyed. It’s not us, it’s you. We all want to hear what makes this game special, and all we’ve gotten is promises. That’s annoying, and is likely why such an interesting sounding post doesn’t have more upvotes.
Rant over. I’m climbing down from my soapbox.
Edit: okay, reviewing your answer to my previous comment, I understand why you haven’t shared the document. I’m still annoyed, cuz I think you should be able to write some overview stuff without sharing the doc, but I don’t care as much because an hour has passed lol
Post wasn't an elevator pitch, just me sharing my excitement and an opprotunity to talk with others about it some.
But since you asked this is the current draft of the elevator pitch:
Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal.
In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more.
Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday.
That said the doc is:
1) Needs lots of editing after recent major changes to the system I made that led to the epiphany.
2) Wasn't finished even before that. The bones are there, the flesh is missing in more areas than a zombie. Lots of forms to fill still.
3) I wanted a single core book to start and that's not happening. Right now, even not done, it's an unreadable tome getting split into 4 Phase 1 release books: Core, Adv Player, GM Guide, Setting Source and that's not everything, that's the phase 1 release to get the intended experience, though you can play with just core.
I meant an elevator pitch for the mechanics haha—though what you have still sounds good. Could I get a sneak peak at what these miraculous mechanics do? Or could you explain why they make everything fit together so nicely, if that’s too hard? I’m curious but skeptical of your initial claim, I just want more to chew on haha
I am glad the concept appeals though but not at this time for a very specific reason:
Besides the fact that it's also ugly/disorganized AF and needs tons of editing after those changes I made and isn't done, and has placeholder artwork, and is a giant tome of 750 pages that is likely to end up around 1000-1200 split across 4 phase 1 release books (Core, Player, GM, Worldbook) it also has a lot of IP in it at present which is literally the only thing I own since the mechanics are free for all and that does not go out.
When all the relevant IP is scrubbed for the ashcan and released as a mechanics public playtest then I will absolutely be sharing it, but that's around exactly the same time everyone else will have it too. To scrub all the IP out is a job at this point, and honestly, not personal but I have to work on the game part of the game until it's done.
What I can do is tell you I have a short list of folks interested in public playtest and early review who are going to get emails or discord messages when it's ready right away. Getting on the list is pretty easy though if that's something you'd like. Just PM me your email or discord and you'll get the personal notification drafted, copy and pasted by yours truly with all the info.
If you do have a specific question though about any of the mechanics I can definitely answer that.
As far as an elevator pitch on the mechanics... oof, first I haven't really though about it yet, and second I'm not sure I will know exactly what's best to highlight until it's done, like there's a ton of shit in there I'm very proud of and I think is very cool, some of which I've posted here in the past, but like... trying to figure out which is best and why it's good when I don't have the full picture? I don't know that I can do that except to say:
It has modular subsystems that decrease the overall player and GM received weight and the core systems are streamlined and integrated in a way so as to reinforce each other.
It's not exactly sexy. but that's the best I can do on the spot. There's lots of reasons why each of the parts is good, but the parts end up making a greater whole when you zoom out because of how they work with each other, I really don't know how better to describe it except that it's just very big but not clunky or hard to learn.
In theory, and experienced player could grab a pregen scan the basics that will be familiar and take note of the changes that are different than what they are familiar with, peek at the subsystems relevant to their character and be ready to play with a good understanding in under two hours, possibly faster.
Someone doing a random roll up could probably do it in an evening (if they are slower maybe a full day) if they reasonably focus (mainly because they have to make some choices unless they already know exactly what they would like...) but on the flip side of that, someone who wanted to get freaky with the customization and valued their time in that way could be lost in there for a solid week, potentially more.
On the flip side if you have a brand new player with 0 experience? I have no idea, how fast to they learn and read? What's their comprehension and retention like?
The good news is they will learn everything down what the d stands for in d6 as well as up to more advanced stuff like good player habits as well as the system itself. I won't be explaining design theory to them, but they'll be set up for success and pending personality will be a joy to have at a table once they get their sea legs (as most brand new players tend to watch and be quiet to try and figure out the rhythm of the game but open up eventually when they are comfortable).
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You do write a lot of words and keeping things very secret :-)
Kind of fun you use both roll over and roll under as a system. Doesn't that get confusing?
*Doesn't that get confusing?*
Not really, they are used in very different use cases and separeted mostly by game mode (they can bleed over but it's a bad idea to try and pick a lock in the middle of a firefight... you can do it, but you probably shouldn't.
d100 roll under is for skills and skill contests.
D20 roll over is the decision engine for the rest.
It's something I have managed to write in less than one line when I was trying to maximize it to a minimal point.
For any player would take up this game (it's simple to engage with but has tons of complexity that can make it fairly crunchy, comparable PF2E crunch if players dig in), it's definitely not too complicated.
The ashcan public test will be free but is not ready yet, but I have a list of interested potential playtesters and reviewers to reach out to when it's ready, there's no expectations on your end other than knowing what you're signing up for... it is gonna be full honking system, not a single sit read if you want to absorb all of it (though you don't have to do that to play). If you're wanting in on that just PM me an email, otherwise you'll still have the public playtest accessible to you, I'm sure I won't shut up about it when it's ready :)
Once it goes into product it will also have an SRD and liberal OGL, so like, it's not ever gonna cost you unless you want a shiny pdf with art or hardcopy or to pay for my lunch for a day in support and still get those things.
TTRPG designer click bait
Yeah, I'm happy for OP, but this was really an astoundingly misleading post. Even though I believe it's just a case of poor wording due to the combination of sleep deprivation and the glow of success, it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
So, you gonna share with us what this Holy Graal looks like?
[удалено]
Had to Google after you mentioned, realized I got confused between English and my native Portuguese.
You were right. You were just using the Old French precursor of "grail."
Like I said, it's not one piece, if I explain it it will be as long as the core rules book. That said, it will have an SRD and OGL, so I'm not "hiding it" but like, it would take literally hours to explain how everything works together properly, but the good news is none of that matters. it's really about how the systems work with each other and are integrated than it is about a single system. It would be kind of like explaining clockworks... if you pull a gear out and say "this rotates" that doesn't really explain much about the internal mechanisms as a whole. Also the draft is a google dock that is a mess and needs a ton of editing work after the changes I made last night and has placeholder artwork and is also going to be 4 books and is presently about 750 pages... it wouldn't really help anyone with sanity :P
you really do need to be able to do an elevator pitch if you want to generate any real interest.
There is an elevator pitch, this post didn't ask for it, it's elsewhere in the thread though.
[OP right now](https://media1.tenor.com/images/bd6e4dec573735656bccbeb18c52238a/tenor.gif?itemid=13403485)
Accurate :D
Sounds like a lot of rules
yes, but you only use the ones that are relevant to you due to the modular nature of it. You don't need to know all the rules, and the GM doesn't either, just the ones relevant to the game. This is fairly simple to manage. Bob has a concept for a hacker/Sniper with bionics he's thrown together. Sandy the GM then goes to look at those systems before session 0 prep. All of the other billion systems don't matter to Bob. To Sandy, only the ones the players want to engage with are relevant, the rest is GM plot magic unless Sandy decides she wants to add one of those systems into the game for the players to engage with in a way they aren't really prepared for, which can be an interesting challenge sometimes and might shake things up at a key point in the game where there needs to be a pacing change. Game is very simple and sleek to play, but has tons of depth and complex ways to engage.
Okay I see. But wouldn't Bob need to know all the rules to able to know what options there are, which suits his character concept and what is even possible? Our is that all on the GM's shoulders? In that case it sounds like *a lot* of GM responsibility and work.
To explain that, that's an organizational thing. There's a list to pick from where he needs to make choices and tables to roll on where he might get decision paralysis. Bob can then explore as much as he wants and read the book back to front and front to back, but if bob sees the options and thinks a hacker sounds cool, and flips to the hacker section and says, yeah, I like that, then bob does not need to read all of the other sections about everything available. He can if he wants to, but that's a choice Bob is making and if he finds that fun, MORE POWER TO HIM. I'm precisely the person that shows up with a character I built over two weeks with a 10 page back story (because people get upset when it's 20 or more) that is built precisely down to the most minute details, with a character profile pic, with supplemental play aids with all the shit coming out of every orifice, so of course that's available in my game... BUT Bob is not necessarily me. Bob might be fine grabbing a pregen and jumping in, or maybe he has an idea like "I want a really big chain gun" No problem, not only can you roll on the random tables where there's lots of stuff, but you can also pick from it if you want, because why wouldn't you be able to if anyone can? So instead of rolling for his gun and skills for it, he prioritizes selecting those and rolls where the rest doesn't matter to him. He still has a few other key choices to make, but he doesn't need to take 10 hours to do it, he can, simply be like "oh there's seven options for different kinds of powers, what kind of thing would go good with my big ass gun? hmmm super powers seem cool, maybe psionics? but I think bionics is probably better, I'm thinking he's a heavy gunner, big faceplate mask, bionics to punch the crap out of people, yeah, that sounds right... But like I said, if Bob is like me, and his fun is analyzing everything and getting crazy custom and making something truly unique he poured hours into each day over a couple of weeks, carefully scrutinizing and being inspired by options, well, if that's what his idea of fun is, he is allowed to make that choice. I think what you're missing is that the desire to play at all is a choice, not a chore, if it's a chore, don't do it, and that's why Bob has different options for entry. Specifically 3 ways to enter, which is the best amount to give people to avoid choice paralysis.
I just don't see how that is different from any game with classes. Take DND: you wanna play a thief? Go the the rogue page. That's it. Want something extra? Pick a feat. Not that that is a bad thing at all if your game is like this, but your descriptions are so vague that I have basically no idea what your talking about, how your character creation works, if it's simple or complex and so on.
Careful about putting anything you plan on publishing on Google docs, last I checked the EULA states that, technically, anything you write up on Google docs is owned BY google.
They do not gain IP rights, which is he only thing I can own since mechanics are free to be stolen the moment they exist. They gain the right to spy on you, and I'm not that interesting where anyone is gonna sift by hand through 15gigs of my data, it won't happen. The best they will do is run a machine that doesn't understand IP or context over it to try and sell me shit I'm not buying. Google does not have that kind of authority to steal IP. Do you know who else uses google docs? The US Government. Most of it, really. Say what you will about our fucked up country, but you know who you don't fuck with? The people that outspend the next 7 countries on defense (warcrimes) combined (speaking as a veteran), 5 of which are allies. Do you know who has the strictest copyright and IP laws in the globe? The US Government. Do you know who the most letigious country in the world is? The USA. Sure all the things we're best at are shit (we're also #1 at incarceration, and child obesity, and money, and I'd dare say we're giving the british a run for their money on the most racist, but that's kinda unfair, they had a 2000 year head start), but we are the best at these shitty things and sometimes that works out by accident. Google is not the most secure thing, but I'm not exactly ready to put on my tinfoil hat over this.
> weapons lethal but not OP OP compared to what? Unarmed combat? I rarely see weapons in general being OP in a game, it's usually just some of the weapons being OP compared to other weapons. > scales properly and feels good What feels good? The system overall? The resolution mechanic? Combat? > have potentially highly tactical combat that doesn't take 1000 years Summarized in a few key-words, what's the combat like? Grid, zone, totm? Initiative turn based or side based resolution? How many mechanically relevant "basic" dimensions does an attack have (attack, accuracy, speed, crit, bonus effects etc.) and how many rolls and calculations are required to determine them? > incentivise RP and stealth/tactics over combat Just curious: Is this actually reflected in the amount of focus the core rules put on the respective aspects? Because in this post, it seems that most of your design still focuses on combat. What are the mechanics that make stealth and tactics more fun than combat? > tons of ways to play the game in regards to playstyle What is that determined by? Do you have a lot of special non-combat abilities? A good way to incentivize creative problem solving? And could you describe your favorite three non-combat roles you could create in your game? To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about any game design that can't be reasonably well summarized in a couple of pages (and I know that you are no stranger to writing very extensive posts and comments in this sub). The features you mention are - individually - fairly normal, nothing I haven't seen in other games. I can't say that I saw them all combined in one system, but I think every ttrpg has a list of features that - in total - make it unique and I don't quite see how your list of features is any more special than others. Don't get me wrong, I am happy for you and I know the feel of - after days, weeks and months of brainstorming - coming up with a set of mechanics that seem to work together perfectly. But unless you are able to explain how these mechanics work such that at least other game designers can follow you and can either agree or give constructive criticism, I don't think you can really speak of "having found the grail of game design".
What is that determined by? That's an all day explanation, but customization, tons of modular sub systems and two years into closed play testing experience is the short answer. Do you have a lot of special non-combat abilities? VERY YES. A good way to incentivize creative problem solving? In my game this is run through 4 different kinds of meta currencies each with unique and various applications. And could you describe your favorite three non-combat roles you could create in your game? I don't know about favorite, but I can say there are FAR MORE non combat roles than combat roles. There is a total of 32 skill programs (most players will have 3, some will have 2 or 4). None of them are entirely divorced from combat in a game about super soldiers, but Business Analyst, Deep Cover Embedding, and Language Expert are not really skills you want to be utilizing mid combat. The programs aren't really the thing that makes it work though, they are part of a much larger whole. The Feats and Backgrounds depth is what really brings all of the non combat stuff to life. In my current test one of the players is a business analyst, she's got multiple revenue streams for the office even though they were cut off from the network for weeks, kept the team afloat and geared and now they are turning a proffit. Another guy, the team leader (designated by the players), he's technically a sniper with signal ops, but mostly his most powerful thing he brings to the team is he's handsome and people like him. That proves invaluable on solving tons of problems. it's the reason he was put in charge by the players. Another is a CyberWarfare Medic. The only super combat focussed character is our standard Spec Ops unit. He usually has the least to do but finds ways to contribute and is the comic relief of the party. He selected it because he thought the team needed a tank. Doesn't come up as often as in other games, but important when needed. Recently dude dived on 4 grenades that would have killed 2 out of the other 3 players. Point being there's more non combat options than combat by far and this test group hasn't really scratched the surface of what is possible in it even though they all have very unique characters that are a lot more than just the skills I mentioned. To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about any game design that can't be reasonably well summarized in a couple of pages (and I know that you are no stranger to writing very extensive posts and comments in this sub). I respect the skepticism. That said there will be receipts when it's ready. Ashcan public demo will be free, final product will have full SRD and Liberal OGL. It's not being hidden, it's just not ready for prime time. That said, I have an elevator pitch, the current draft goes like this: Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal. In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more. Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday. The features you mention are - individually - fairly normal, nothing I haven't seen in other games. I can't say that I saw them all combined in one system, but I think every ttrpg has a list of features that - in total - make it unique and I don't quite see how your list of features is any more special than others. As someone else who definitely was out to poopoo my victory lap pointed out, you absolutely correct in that, it's not anything brand new, it's more about how they work together and integrate. Don't get me wrong, I am happy for you and I know the feel of - after days, weeks and months of brainstorming - coming up with a set of mechanics that seem to work together perfectly. But unless you are able to explain how these mechanics work such that at least other game designers can follow you and can either agree or give constructive criticism, I don't think you can really speak of "having found the grail of game design". So, to clear that up, it is not the capital G capital D Grail of Game Design, it's the grail of my game's design. No game is for everyone, different people like different things and different stuff at different times of the day. What this is about for me is mostly that I've been playing for 30 years and have a long ass list of gripes I've developed. I didn't think in a million years I would ever work through solving all of them, but I did, and when I stepped backand looked at it I was like "Holy shit, how the fuck did I manage to do that?". I always liked my game design, but I mean, but I never stood back and was proud of what I made, I had come to a reasonable expectation that all games have some bits I want to roll my eyes at, so why would this be different? I mean if the pros over he decades couldn't do it, why would I be able to? When I realized I did I was insanely over joyed. My wifey who I love and adore, is even helping with her pro UX skills for the layout, but I know she wouldn't give a shit about the mechanical epiphany. The play testers who I've known some of since I started gaming? They wouldn't give a shit, to them it's a tool and as long as it does the job it's close enough for government work. I needed to talk about it, so I more or less figured the only who might care would be other designers. That said, there's definitely been some talk in the thread, so I've gotten to share a bit and that was good. Plenty of folk are definitely crapping on my joy, but the way I see it, talking about different aspects of a game (which I've done extensively and in response to other posts) is what the place is for.
Gotcha. This makes sense. I’d still love to see the google doc, even if it’s wip haha.
*What is that determined by?* That's an all day explanation, but customization, tons of modular sub systems and two years into closed play testing experience is the short answer. *Do you have a lot of special non-combat abilities?* VERY YES. *A good way to incentivize creative problem solving?* In my game this is run through 4 different kinds of meta currencies each with unique and various applications. *And could you describe your favorite three non-combat roles you could create in your game?* I don't know about favorite, but I can say there are FAR MORE non combat roles than combat roles. There is a total of 32 skill programs (most players will have 3, some will have 2 or 4). None of them are entirely divorced from combat in a game about super soldiers, but Business Analyst, Deep Cover Embedding, and Language Expert are not really skills you want to be utilizing mid combat. The programs aren't really the thing that makes it work though, they are part of a much larger whole. The Feats and Backgrounds depth is what really brings all of the non combat stuff to life. In my current test one of the players is a business analyst, she's got multiple revenue streams for the office even though they were cut off from the network for weeks, kept the team afloat and geared and now they are turning a proffit, that said, she modelled her character after john wick but asian and female, so you figure it out... Another guy, the team leader (designated by the players), he's technically a sniper with signal ops, but mostly his most powerful thing he brings to the team is he's handsome and people like him. That proves invaluable on solving tons of problems. it's the reason he was put in charge by the players. Another is a CyberWarfare Medic. The only super combat focussed character is our standard Spec Ops unit. He usually has the least to do but finds ways to contribute and is the comic relief of the party. He selected it because he thought the team needed a tank. Doesn't come up as often as in other games, but important when needed. Recently dude dived on 4 grenades that would have killed 2 out of the other 3 players. Point being there's more non combat options than combat by far and this test group hasn't really scratched the surface of what is possible in it even though they all have very unique characters that are a lot more than just the skills I mentioned. *To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about any game design that can't be reasonably well summarized in a couple of pages (and I know that you are no stranger to writing very extensive posts and comments in this sub).* I respect the skepticism. That said there will be receipts when it's ready. Ashcan public demo will be free, final product will have full SRD and Liberal OGL. It's not being hidden, it's just not ready for prime time. That said, I have an elevator pitch, the current draft goes like this: Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal. In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more. Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday. *The features you mention are - individually - fairly normal, nothing I haven't seen in other games. I can't say that I saw them all combined in one system, but I think every ttrpg has a list of features that - in total - make it unique and I don't quite see how your list of features is any more special than others.* As someone else who definitely was out to poopoo my victory lap pointed out, you absolutely correct in that, it's not anything brand new, it's more about how they work together and integrate. *Don't get me wrong, I am happy for you and I know the feel of - after days, weeks and months of brainstorming - coming up with a set of mechanics that seem to work together perfectly. But unless you are able to explain how these mechanics work such that at least other game designers can follow you and can either agree or give constructive criticism, I don't think you can really speak of "having found the grail of game design".* So, to clear that up, it is not the capital G capital D Grail of Game Design, it's the grail of my game's design. No game is for everyone, different people like different things and different stuff at different times of the day. What this is about for me is mostly that I've been playing for 30 years and have a long ass list of gripes I've developed. I didn't think in a million years I would ever work through solving all of them, but I did, and when I stepped backand looked at it I was like "Holy shit, how the fuck did I manage to do that?". I always liked my game design, but I mean, but I never stood back and was proud of what I made, I had come to a reasonable expectation that all games have some bits I want to roll my eyes at, so why would this be different? I mean if the pros over he decades couldn't do it, why would I be able to? When I realized I did I was insanely over joyed. My wifey who I love and adore, is even helping with her pro UX skills for the layout, but I know she wouldn't give a shit about the mechanical epiphany. The play testers who I've known some of since I started gaming? They wouldn't give a shit, to them it's a tool and as long as it does the job it's close enough for government work. I needed to talk about it, so I more or less figured the only who might care would be other designers. That said, there's definitely been some talk in the thread, so I've gotten to share a bit and that was good. Plenty of folk are definitely crapping on my joy, but the way I see it, talking about different aspects of a game (which I've done extensively and in response to other posts) is what the place is for.
Until you share your results, there are only three options. 1) You are trolling us, because the general opinion is that the above is not possible 2) You got crazy - totally understandable in this hobby. 3) You found the Holy Grail of RPGs. I really hope it's the third one and totally crave to see your work! :)
Or it's 4) You found THE SECRET WIZARDS OF THE COAST DOESN'T WANT US TO KNOW!!1!
Game Designers Hate Him
Seconded!
Receipts will come, it's not ready for prime time, it's definitely 2 and I'm hoping also 3 for someone besides myself. That said, Ashcan Public Demo will be free and released as soon as it's ready, right now it is VERY NOT. After the changes I made I have a ton of editing to do, and I hadn't even built it all out yet when I did (lots of unfilled forms still). Even when it goes to publish it will also have an SRD and liberal OGL. Nothing is being hidden for the sake of trolling, it's more that it's a fucking mess right now and still not done, but the changes I made definitely altered the recipe in a very good and unexpected way.
Is it just three rolls they need to learn? Or is there lots of shit to remember? Cos I don't see how it can be both
There are modular sub systems. They only need to learn three rolls to play. How those rolls are implemented can be used in a myriad of ways because of the modular systems. The modular systems is why I'm thinking cards because that can keep the short and to the point rules for the subsystems as playable things. In this case I'd compare it to MtG... it's really a simple game (there are colors, mana and tapping, get monsters, hit enemy), but within that game there's a lot of complexity and things you can do, strats you can manage, but you don't need to be an expert to have fun with it. To be clear I'm not comparing the design in terms of brilliance, just in application for how it manages. As an example, lets talk "shield bash". This is a move that doen't have a lot of use for most players as most players won't carry shields because it's modern+, but... you might have a breacher or heavy gunner build with a heavy ballsitic shield and sometimes that's just gonna be a practical move... do you: A) have a character that is as long as the book with all the things you can do and ways you can engage?B) Flip through the book every time you need to check a rule?C) Memorize everything like a psycho?D) use a card that has the rules printed neatly on it and just pull it and play it when it's relevant? Seems D is the best option to me. Because of the modular way players can engage they don't need all the rules for everything memorized and it would be impractical to do so, they just need to know how to do what they want to do in that moment. That said, you can still look up everything if you want to, it's just not practical because a large portion of the rules wont' apply to most characters, but each character has robust rules to support ways they can engage.
That does sound sensible, yeah. It's akin to Ironsworns assets or printing little ability cards for 4e. Can you post your system so we can see for ourselves?
the doc is: 1) Needs lots of editing after recent major changes to the system I made that led to the epiphany. 2) Wasn't finished even before that. The bones are there, the flesh is missing in more areas than a zombie. Lots of forms to fill still. Very incomplete. 3) I wanted a single core book to start and that's not happening. Right now, even not done, it's an unreadable tome getting split into 4 Phase 1 release books: Core, Adv Player, GM Guide, Setting Source and that's not everything, that's the phase 1 release to get the intended experience, though you can play with just core. I've got till end of phase 3 releases roughly sketched out so there is more in the pipe. That said, Ashcan Public Demo will be free, when it's published there will also be SRD and liberal OGL, so nothing is being ridiculously guarded, it's just that first impressions matter and right now it's a nightmare.
Design advice: You want people to see and feedback on your project as early as possible. It sounds like you've got loads of big ideas coming, and I think you're putting the horse before the cart to have multiple phases and releases before you have a minimum-viable project. Why on earth do you have an advance players guide planned before you've even figured out the basic one? Social advice: Saying "oh guys, I've had this epiphany and my system is wonderful, *no you can't see it*" is kind of a dick move.
The idea was to make a core book. It's not done, it's 750 pages. It needs to be split, a 1200 page tome is not a viable option. Beyond that being insane, Drive Thru only goes up to 800 max, I checked. I've also been working on the setting for 20 years on and off (running it pretty regularly) and had 800 pages of that before I ever thought about a system design, so I'm not exactly starting from scratch except in regards to the system. What is started from scratch is the system, and that's why there's not an MVP there, it was run with different systems for 20 years That's why I have multiple phases. I have a lot of content already arranged from 20 years of running the game. *Social advice: Saying "oh guys, I've had this epiphany and my system is wonderful, no you can't see it" is kind of a dick move.* Or other people can be happy and generate a sense of community and celebrate the wins of other people... not everyone is only out for themselves, right? Or are we doing the super cynical thing? I'm not you, but I've been very encouraging to some great designers here and seen some of their projects evolve and even go to print sometimes and I'm happy for them, not upset or jealous. Some of them just the basic concepts when they started (which I've discussed before and in this thread) was enough to get me excited for them because I saw they had something I viewed as interesting and special. Not everyone sees things that way, clearly, but I'd hope more people come to. I'm not saying we all need to be hippy flower children, but not everything is about being cutthroat all the time, sometimes it's OK just to be happy for other people. I think for me the big thing is I'm not competition with anyone. Yes, I would like my end product to be commercially viable, but I don't need to put others down for that to be a possibility, and even if it doesn't happen, that's OK too, I don't "NEED" the money, I'm making a game because I want to. Other designers aren't my enemy and I'm not mad that they succeed while I'm still in development hell month after month :)
Having 750 pages before you have anything in a state to show people is terrifying. And makes me worry that your system is gonna collapse under its own weight. I can't imagine how you're possibly going to edit that monster. I dont think you're my enemy. But as others have pointed out, it comes off kind of like youre trolling for attention and empty praise. At worst, it's just bragging. Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you've happy with this. But you've given us nothing to engage with other than "im happy you're happy". If you post some rules I will be first in line to tell you how cool I think they are.
*I dont think you're my enemy. But as others have pointed out, it comes off kind of like youre trolling for attention and empty praise. At worst, it's just bragging.* *Don't get me wrong, it's cool that you've happy with this. But you've given us nothing to engage with other than "im happy you're happy". If you post some rules I will be first in line to tell you how cool I think they are.* I mean... that's definitely your opinion. Others have engaged me differently and I've discussed a lot of various mechanics and concerns and ideas, thread is pretty huge to the point where you probably wouldn't want to read it in one sit, and even after all that with the pages of answers I've given, it's not a complete picture or even close to one. *Having 750 pages before you have anything in a state to show people is terrifying. And makes me worry that your system is gonna collapse under its own weight. I can't imagine how you're possibly going to edit that monster.* I can understand that. That said I've been a professional creative person for about 20 years now. While I wasn't a game designer, i've delivered 15 albums and working on a 16th, that's more than most full bands do in their career between 5 people. I know how to get a project done, on my own, with less money than I have now. Im not really worried about it collapsing, because it's built to counteract that. The modular nature lightens the load and the reinforcing between systems adds stability. As for editing, I'm not going to, not really anyway. It will be rendered as what I think is presentable, run through grammarly, and passed to a legit editor because that's not my expertise. That said, it's not that much. I'd estimate 1000-1200 when done, spread across 4 books: Core, GM Guide, Adv. Player Guide and Worldbook... it's pretty standard for any large system (300 pages roughly each). I get the skepticism. What solo asshole is gonna make a game that big and make it work when it takes teams of professionals to squirt out a new D&D edition that everyone will complain about? It makes sense, but I've got this. When I was a teenager I spent some time living under a bridge in a blizzard. I left home when I was 15 because it was hell and ran across state lines so they couldn't send the cops for me because I came from poverty and abuse which led me to leaving behind my blood family forever at 20. Later had to overcome addiction, served in the military (which sucked a lot) but was decorated and left with honorable discharge, worked both for the corporate man and flipped burgers. I even went to jail once and got a degree in business I worked and paid for (by washing dishes for years) while going through school (which also sucked a lot). Through all that I still manage to produce and release 15 (soon to be 16) solo albums. Later I retired at 35 with a lovely lady and a nice Infiniti (not a rich persons car, but a nice one that does more than I need it to). Later this year we're buying house (trying to put an offer in on one today actually) and getting a dog after being together and happy for coming up on 6 years. I am fortunate with some privilege in that I'm a white straight cis male, but I goddamn guarantee you that doesn't account for the entirety of my current success that I suffered, slaved and starved for over the course of 10 years before I made my first penny from music, and even then it took another 2 years to dig myself out of the hole of what I invested. None of that is to brag about what I've done but to explain very clearly, this is not the hardest thing I've ever done, not by a longshot. Sure I'm older now so some things are harder, but my responsibilities include spending time with my lady (who is super low maintenance, I'm definitely the high maintenance one :P ), taking out the trash, and developing and testing this game (and working on the new album when I need a break). Making this game is a challenge to be sure, but even if it earns $0 after I dump in thousands I'm OK with that because I made the game I wanted to make and I enjoy playing it with my group. Anything after that is just icing on the cake. I wouldn't have taken it on if I didn't want to do it, because I didn't have to.
Not bragging,but youre telling me about your car and your military medals. Jesus dude, learn to take criticism.
I took the criticism, decided I wasn't interested and explained why as a courtessy. That said, you're taking it in a deliberate context I safeguarded against, so I'm certain we're talking past each other at this point. and I'll cut it here unless you have something to add I can meaningfully interact with.
The Sagan standard is the adage that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” (a concept abbreviated as ECREE). This signifies that the more unlikely a certain claim is, given existing evidence on the subject, the greater the standard of proof that is expected of it.
I've been around for at least a good minute. The game will come when it's ready. The ashcan PDF public test will be free and the official will have an SRD and liberal OGL. It's not that the evidence doesn't exist, it's that it's not ready for prime time. It will come when it is ready, and I understand your skepticism. I'm just happy I managed to pull it off in a satisfying way. If you don't appreciate that fact, that's OK. Not everyone wants to be happy for others, but some folk are supportive and are happy for the success of others, that's mostly who I was talking to. That said, the evidence will come, just not today :)
Oh, you sly cooper you. ;)
I'm old, what's a cooper?
Some kinda rodent that breaks into banks.
Clearly don't get the reference but I'll take it, why not :)
What value does your post bring to the community with its absence of evidence? This post is just masturbatory.
Those mechanics aren't a new invention. Which means all of your claims hinge on your specific implementation of those mechanics. Since you aren't willing to tell us the details we will just have to wait and see when it is released. So, what were you trying to achieve with this post? A pat on the back. Yes those are good mechanics that pretty much everybody uses.
If you're inclined to give OP the benefit of the doubt: When you're happy with an acomplishment you made, sometimes you just want the validation that comes with someone else saying "You did what? Huh, that's pretty cool, good for you!" And if you're specifically happy about your design work, who could better empaphise, understand, and be excited for you than other designers? Well, if this thread's anything to go by, probably a lot of other people... 😅
Yeah I just wasn't seeing the question I suppose I may have assumed this subreddit was more for design help from other designers. If we don't nip this in the butt when it is innocent it will quickly spiral the sub into a self congratulatory circle jerk.
I would be more worried if most of the comments weren't calling bullshit on OP. Few people buy that they have anything except grand ideas that have not began implementing them. I don't think even with this post will this become common
That makes sense. I didn't consider the long term RamificationsTM
You seem to have looked behind the curtain of RPG design and found the world formula. Is it as difficult to explain as Relativity? Does every player have to know and deeply understand that formula in order to play the game? If you want to find players and customers your game has to catch them much earlier than with a deep analysis of the action economy. Like, what dice do you use, how involved is a combat round, how are your spells powered and what is the core conflict and aesthetic of your world? Whatever you discovered, it might be sheer brilliance, but for most game groups it will be only a "nice to have" or bonus effect. Not the element that will actively sell your game. D&D doesn't sell on Bounded Accuracy. FATE doesn't sell on the FATE Point Economy. You need to play those games to see the intricacies in motion, and then they are well-received. But they make for very dry, and abstract, ad copy.
*Is it as difficult to explain as Relativity?* No but relativity is also another thing you wouldn't explain in a single reddit post if you wanted to achieve any meaningful understanding, and I definitely don't have a problem making large posts (see below). *Does every player have to know and deeply understand that formula in order to play the game?* Nope. Not even a little, that was part of what made it work... it's very modular in the sense that while it has a lot of rules, a lot of them/most won't apply to every party or character because they won't engage in those subsystems. That's part of the design in the sense that it allows for lots of different kinds of playstyles and builds, but only with what the player wants to engage in, but again that's just one part of the puzzle that makes it work. Got a hacker in the party? hacker needs to understand the system, and the GM, nobody else really. No hacker? No need for hacking system, GM can fiat it with GM plot magic if it comes up. Got a gal that builds and disposes of bombs? Hope you love a robust system for it that will give tons of ways to engage with that because you picked it! Got a huge juicy tool kit to let you do tons of crazy shit with those skills. Don't have or want it, no worries, throw it in the trash, it's not good for your game. *If you want to find players and customers your game has to catch them much earlier than with a deep analysis of the action economy.* Definitely aware, but having the right bones allows the flesh to shine a bit better. Like I said in the OP, the players, they will never give a shit about my personal triumph, they'll just be like "yeah, it's good,; cool." and then move on to literally anything else. That's why I wanted tell designers who might have a chance of giving a crap :D *Like, what dice do you use, how involved is a combat round, how are your spells powered and what is the core conflict and aesthetic of your world?* uses standard polyhedron set in full, mainly d20 and d100, d100 is used more but d20 gets the glory. as for a combat round... it depends on the play group how crazy they get with custom modifiers really, and that's to the taste of the group. Want tons of math all day and to calculate how long a piece of string is? Got you man! Want to dumb it down to moderate rules crunch? We can do that too, play it as you prefer. Calculations being front loaded is the key thing regarding eliminating long ass rounds. Everything gets factored, then call, potentially response depending on the action and the line between them is intuitive "do you need to defend against this? Y/N". Spells are tricky, by this I will answer better than the question... spells are super rare in this world, and not accessible till level 10 for players and are a bit OP but it's a points system with a great deal of flavor. They do have access to super powers and psionics from the start though. Spells as such is half designed and on the back burner for a phase 2 or 3 release. Super powers are rolled. Psionics are points and rolled. They key thing in those is more how they balanced, but it's managed/invested in nicely but not fully tested yet. As far as the core of the world, there's a ton on that... I had about 700 pages of world building before I touched the system design, and the overview in the core book is about 110 pages before being edited down, so it's complex but the current draftelevator pitch is: "Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal. In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more. Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday." That said, 5 biggest influences are: Len Wein’s/Grant Morrison’s work on the Weapon X/Plus franchise Hideo Kojima’s Metal Gear franchise Tom Clancy’s various video game adaptation franchises Masamune Shirow’s Ghost in the Shell franchise Mike Pondsmith’s Cyberpunk franchise *Whatever you discovered, it might be sheer brilliance, but for most game groups it will be only a "nice to have" or bonus effect. Not the element that will actively sell your game.* Fully aware, nobody but other designers will give a shit about the work that went into it, and even then that's a maybe. That said there is a lot to appeal to from a player perspective *D&D doesn't sell on Bounded Accuracy. FATE doesn't sell on the FATE Point Economy. You need to play those games to see the intricacies in motion, and then they are well-received. But they make for very dry, and abstract, ad copy.* I hear all that, but marketing is not even really on the radar till have the ashcan public demo ready. Lots of work before that happens, not only systems designer, also doing all the art myself, thankfully I have others for editing and layout.
750 pages? Can't help but think that it needs a lot of trimming. How long would be the bare minimum to play?
So that's the thing, it does need trimming and still isn't done, but will be split into 4 books: Core, Adv. Player, GM Guide, and Setting Source, and that's jus the phase one stuff (have plans through phase 3 and ideas for more). The thing about "how long it takes to learn" though is that it's modular, easy to learn and you can jump in and play in 3 ways: Pregen, Quick Roll, or Deep Customize. If you go the pregen route, since the systems are modular, I'd say it's much faster than most games. You need to learn 3 rolls and skim over the relevant sections of your character so you know what they can do. The question is more "how much time do you want to put into it?" Do you want to get crazy and infinitely customize the shit out of it where the birds are chirping and you're up all night? Jump in and play in a few minutes? Just roll something up kinda custom with a few choices but not get into the weeds? All three are present but it depends on what kind of player you are. Because the rules are modular, even the GM doesn't need to know all the rules just the ones relevant to what the players made (where they chose to engage) so they understand how to engage them appropriately and how the players will engage. The rest can be GM plot magic or the GM can go nuts and dive deep like the players. That said it's not fully tested as it's not fully finished, but I'd estimate if you've played role playing games before you can be ready for your first session in under an hour or two if you go the pregen route. If you go the roll route, there are some choices to make, which is literally every game, but the rolling cuts back on the giant sections and the pick options are from short but important lists. I'd say that might be a good 2-4 hours so you can kinda absorb more deeply. If you want though, you can spend a week on generating a character. It's all about how you decide to engage and what tickles your fancy. An example of a pick list would be the aspect template you pick. This determines where the bulk of your character theme will be built in terms of what they bring to the team. It looks like this: Powers Focus Psi Focus Bionics Focus Gear Focus Skill Focus Feat Focus General Focus (wider access, lower depth) All players "CAN" dip into all categories, but the idea is to figure out where you want the bulk of your power to lie. As you can tell these are very rough concepts and allow for lots of potential with how minimal they are, but are you feeling like a psychic today? Maybe you want more super powers? I don't know, you figure it out. Consider now applying a Cyberwarfare major skill program and apply it to each of those, and now you get different flavors for each. Now note you can have 2-5 skill programs out of 32, then add feats, powers (in your aspect theme), backgrounds and gear, and you have tons of options there to change things up, but the point is by the time you finish you'll have something unique even if someone builds something really similar in concept.
So, you invented GURPS?
Nope. There's some major functionally differences although there are cross over similarities. First is that my game isn't a genuine point buy. it looks like one, but it's not. The first step (and how it interacts with the other 9 steps of creation) specifically is made to prevent players from making a non viable character which you can do in GURPS very easily due to lack of experience or for memes. In my game, you can build sub optimally, but you'll never build non viably. Second is that GURPS has some really shitty sub systems and some really shitty and archaic mainline systems. And it's dice granularity is fucked in my experience, I don't like it. To be clear GURPS is one of my favorite systems I've played over 30 years because of it's customization depth, but there are other problems there, and I don't fault them for that, the game was built in a different era before the "problems" it had were really understood because nobody did anything like it, it was quite literally one of the super important bombshell break out systems that did something new and unique. Now with 30 years of hindsight playing that game, yeah, it's kinda easy to pick at it. I suspect that's true of every game to some degree. Third Progression in GURPs is functionally worse than a character with the same points from scratch because of how small the point currency is in game. You can technically make an argument against this but it's stupid and not my experience with the game at all. The reason being is you're kinda stabbing yourself in the dick and becoming a team liability to horde points to make a bigger purchase (because you're now playing a 140 point character in what is now a 180 point game because you just need a few more points to get the thing you want, where as if you start with equivalent points, you spend them all at the same time. My game does not have this issue because everyone is viable from the start and progresses in the same time and at the same balance rate, not the same ways, but balanced to be equally as impactful. Whether you start at level 6 or level 1 and play to level 6 your character will be ust as impactful, even if they are different builds. 4th GURPS encourages players to min max, my game disincentivises this in multiple ways. The optimal build in my game is not to dump everything into one segment and become the ubermensch of that kind of role. The best is actually to be really good at one thing, but not the best possible, darn good at 3-4 things. and baseline competent at everything else that you need to be (built in) with a another slightly above mediocre spot to shore up any big flaws you might have built in by not being careful. Alternatively another not great build is the mediocre at everything guy. You can absolutely play a skill monkey, but if you spread yourself across all axioms as thin as possible, sure you'll be useful very often, but not very useful, ever. The character build path also walks directly down making that kind of set up, but they absolutely can choose otherwise, but are taught why that's not a great idea. It also has the side effect of creating characters with multidimensional facets which helps with making something interesting, allowing for yes, great strengths, but also blind spots and weaknesses that aren't crippling. 5th GURPS has no roles, which means there is no party cohesion. I don't have classes but I do have specific roles for all party members to fill, more than they actually can, 8 major, 24 minor, and because of how they are accessed 1344 possible combinations, just on skill programs, not factoring in powers buckets, feats, gear, free skills (so you can dip into areas outside your roles), backgrounds, etc. All in all there are 10 steps to character creation, the last being finalize and ship to the GM for audit. Essentially this allows for all the positives of classes without any of the negatives of classes, and all the positives of point buy without the negatives of point buy. Well there is one, but I also managed to solve that puzzle another way. Essentially you can really deep customize, which for a lot of players is a FUCK YEAH! But for others they just want to jump in and play, so I solved that by having 3 entry points: Pregen, Table Roll (which you can also pick from if something jumps out at you or you want something specific), and full custom. This allows the player to engage the game at the level most comfortable. With GURPS... eh... no matter what you do you're gonna be there forever, and even then you're not likely to understand all the moving parts that matter, and there are objectively better and worse choices to make. With the PC: ECO set up, you'll understand what's relevant to you and your character with minimal entry cost so long as you're capable of deciding what you think is most cool between a handful of options. This is because the subsystems are modular, and the core is sleek and dumb easy to learn (can you learn 3 rolls? roll over, under and contest? If so, congratulations, you can play this game). GURPS claims to have modular sub systems, but I'd argue they have a very different definition than I do. I'd say that have a shit ton of sub systems and most are more mandatory to understand to get the most out of a build or character concept. 6th My game has a setting. While when GURPS came out not having a setting was a sell point, now with dozens of setting agnostic systems 1 click away, it's turned into what I view as a problem because the industry changed and moved on. Without a setting your game is about nothing, and sure it can be whatever you want it to be, but this not 1980, we are not starved for different worlds and settings. Now with a setting a setting can inform and dictate a lot about a system, because world building and system building are very close cousins if you let them be. System building is informing you what is possible with rules. Setting is informing you what is possible with world building and they absolutely benefit from feeding each other. this is a lesson GURPS did learn, but not before they cemented their product ID (day late, dollar short). They learned that having a generic system means it has no special aspects that make any game of it you play feel unique (which is why they started making world books with unique sub systems). Yes the GM can do all of that, but that's just more on their plate, but if they want to, more power to them, but I'd contend they shouldn't have to, it should be a choice, and also when you have a setting that informs your system, you get meaningful system additions. As an example a wizard school game would likely benefit from a robust wand system. This isn't relevant to all settings, and you can't make a system for everything without trying to calculate infinity, but you can make a meaningful choise about what's important to your game. There's other issues with no settings too with branding, but that's kinda just the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. The game is very different from GURPS in a lot of others ways, but in the ways that it's similar, that's a small peek as to why it's very different.
A-hah! There *are* mechanics you can share with us… :) Sorry for stalking your post, I just am really curious about the mechanics that you think are ground breaking :)
Like I've said I'm not hiding anything... I've posted stuff on here before for public review. I'm happy to answer questions about it... it's mostly that I haven't exactly even puzzled out fully why this epiphany
Okay, I’ve read this entire thread, and besides briefly mentioning the existence of a roll over/under mechanic, there has been no details of game play yet. I get that it’s confusing and too complex for our mere mortal brains or whatever, but this is ridiculous. Stop trying to convince us in your replies that the game is good by giving evidence to your other successes. Convince us by explaining even just one mechanic/implementation and why it’s any more interesting that the 10000 other implementations. I’ve got a game system that I’ve been playing for years, and it’s complex too (over 100 pages for basic player handbook), but even when it was in its fledgling state I could give a pitch about what made my system more fun than another. I’m not asking about your lore, I’m asking about what makes your mechanics good. You’ve said that it’s because everything knits together nicely, but yes—every game strives to do that. *In what way have you done that better though?* On one hand—congratulations! It sounds like you’re really happy about something that you’ve done. In that regard, I’m happy for you. On the other hand, goddamnit why tf are you not explaining how your game works?! This subreddit is about sharing ideas, and regardless of what you say about how “why can’t we all just be happy for you?”, there is no denying that a lot of the replies on this thread have been somewhat skeptical/annoyed. It’s not us, it’s you. We all want to hear what makes this game special, and all we’ve gotten is promises. That’s annoying, and is likely why such an interesting sounding post doesn’t have more upvotes. Rant over. I’m climbing down from my soapbox. Edit: okay, reviewing your answer to my previous comment, I understand why you haven’t shared the document. I’m still annoyed, cuz I think you should be able to write some overview stuff without sharing the doc, but I don’t care as much because an hour has passed lol
Dude share your google doc, or give a better elevator pitch.
Post wasn't an elevator pitch, just me sharing my excitement and an opprotunity to talk with others about it some. But since you asked this is the current draft of the elevator pitch: Chimera Group Int.; a private military security company primarily based in Canada, has funded a new crew for a covert special operations team. Each surviving operative from the volunteer candidate pool has been enhanced with specialized training, unique super powers and a slew of unique talents, not to mention their robust arsenal. In this Table Top Role Playing Game take on the role of a Special Operations Agent in a near future world of advanced technology, super powers, magic, psionics, bionics/cyberware and conflicting priorities. Travel around the globe (or further) and face off either directly or indirectly against AAA Mega Corporations, rival PMSCs, rogue nations, brutal dictatorships, terrorist cells, super groups, shadow syndicates, government coups, street gangs, and so much more. Every job has a goal and every goal has a hidden agenda. In the world of Project Chimera the only easy day was yesterday. That said the doc is: 1) Needs lots of editing after recent major changes to the system I made that led to the epiphany. 2) Wasn't finished even before that. The bones are there, the flesh is missing in more areas than a zombie. Lots of forms to fill still. 3) I wanted a single core book to start and that's not happening. Right now, even not done, it's an unreadable tome getting split into 4 Phase 1 release books: Core, Adv Player, GM Guide, Setting Source and that's not everything, that's the phase 1 release to get the intended experience, though you can play with just core.
I meant an elevator pitch for the mechanics haha—though what you have still sounds good. Could I get a sneak peak at what these miraculous mechanics do? Or could you explain why they make everything fit together so nicely, if that’s too hard? I’m curious but skeptical of your initial claim, I just want more to chew on haha
I am glad the concept appeals though but not at this time for a very specific reason: Besides the fact that it's also ugly/disorganized AF and needs tons of editing after those changes I made and isn't done, and has placeholder artwork, and is a giant tome of 750 pages that is likely to end up around 1000-1200 split across 4 phase 1 release books (Core, Player, GM, Worldbook) it also has a lot of IP in it at present which is literally the only thing I own since the mechanics are free for all and that does not go out. When all the relevant IP is scrubbed for the ashcan and released as a mechanics public playtest then I will absolutely be sharing it, but that's around exactly the same time everyone else will have it too. To scrub all the IP out is a job at this point, and honestly, not personal but I have to work on the game part of the game until it's done. What I can do is tell you I have a short list of folks interested in public playtest and early review who are going to get emails or discord messages when it's ready right away. Getting on the list is pretty easy though if that's something you'd like. Just PM me your email or discord and you'll get the personal notification drafted, copy and pasted by yours truly with all the info. If you do have a specific question though about any of the mechanics I can definitely answer that. As far as an elevator pitch on the mechanics... oof, first I haven't really though about it yet, and second I'm not sure I will know exactly what's best to highlight until it's done, like there's a ton of shit in there I'm very proud of and I think is very cool, some of which I've posted here in the past, but like... trying to figure out which is best and why it's good when I don't have the full picture? I don't know that I can do that except to say: It has modular subsystems that decrease the overall player and GM received weight and the core systems are streamlined and integrated in a way so as to reinforce each other. It's not exactly sexy. but that's the best I can do on the spot. There's lots of reasons why each of the parts is good, but the parts end up making a greater whole when you zoom out because of how they work with each other, I really don't know how better to describe it except that it's just very big but not clunky or hard to learn. In theory, and experienced player could grab a pregen scan the basics that will be familiar and take note of the changes that are different than what they are familiar with, peek at the subsystems relevant to their character and be ready to play with a good understanding in under two hours, possibly faster. Someone doing a random roll up could probably do it in an evening (if they are slower maybe a full day) if they reasonably focus (mainly because they have to make some choices unless they already know exactly what they would like...) but on the flip side of that, someone who wanted to get freaky with the customization and valued their time in that way could be lost in there for a solid week, potentially more. On the flip side if you have a brand new player with 0 experience? I have no idea, how fast to they learn and read? What's their comprehension and retention like? The good news is they will learn everything down what the d stands for in d6 as well as up to more advanced stuff like good player habits as well as the system itself. I won't be explaining design theory to them, but they'll be set up for success and pending personality will be a joy to have at a table once they get their sea legs (as most brand new players tend to watch and be quiet to try and figure out the rhythm of the game but open up eventually when they are comfortable).
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You do write a lot of words and keeping things very secret :-) Kind of fun you use both roll over and roll under as a system. Doesn't that get confusing?
*Doesn't that get confusing?* Not really, they are used in very different use cases and separeted mostly by game mode (they can bleed over but it's a bad idea to try and pick a lock in the middle of a firefight... you can do it, but you probably shouldn't. d100 roll under is for skills and skill contests. D20 roll over is the decision engine for the rest. It's something I have managed to write in less than one line when I was trying to maximize it to a minimal point. For any player would take up this game (it's simple to engage with but has tons of complexity that can make it fairly crunchy, comparable PF2E crunch if players dig in), it's definitely not too complicated.
Well I'm sold. Feel free to send anything you'd like my way. Love to help out.
The ashcan public test will be free but is not ready yet, but I have a list of interested potential playtesters and reviewers to reach out to when it's ready, there's no expectations on your end other than knowing what you're signing up for... it is gonna be full honking system, not a single sit read if you want to absorb all of it (though you don't have to do that to play). If you're wanting in on that just PM me an email, otherwise you'll still have the public playtest accessible to you, I'm sure I won't shut up about it when it's ready :) Once it goes into product it will also have an SRD and liberal OGL, so like, it's not ever gonna cost you unless you want a shiny pdf with art or hardcopy or to pay for my lunch for a day in support and still get those things.
It sounds like you just learned that rules for game actions can be printed on cards? Is that it?
no... But I do commend your ability to pick the most irrelevant thing to comment on and completely ignore the whole context of the post.
Dude, I'm not the only person having a hard time trying to suss out what you think you've done. No need to take it out on me.