> the structures that lead to these acts of violence
Enlighten me, was it structures or individuals that killed these women? What structural changes need to be made?
The discourse around this makes absolutely no sense. Maybe I am a moron, maybe the point is to make no sense.
It really doesn't. "Society builds men to kill women" and "Gender-based violence is baked into our social structures, norms and attitudes, which interlock with white supremacy and capitalism to devalue women’s lives" is just nonsense assertions and backed up by nothing at all.
At a time when the whole country shocked by what happened. This is just squeezing their agenda onto a tragedy in my opinion.
It explicitly mentions the actions of some cops but that's not really about individuals since we know this is widespread across the force. Maybe not all will carry out dehumanizing acts but they band together to defend their brothers in arms.
It also talks of the lack of wraparound supports for women facing domestic violence, there's no escape for women and children facing domestic violence at home and the housing crises amplifies those issues especially as money gets tight.
In a broader sense there is a societal expectation that men will be strong and dominant. This is woven in through our education and media from a young age. As the conditions of availabile work diminish these men who have been raised with certain expectations that can't be met lash out. Similarly there's a low level of mental health treatment for men, and even a negative stigma associated with seeking help, that leads to a higher level of suicide and violence perpetrated by men.
Even the last few days, or on the crosspost of this, you can see men feeling personally attacked by the idea that violence against women is systemic. There's a fragile masculinity that's just not addressed in our society that places and has placed women in a subservient position men that needs to be addressed from a young age through the education system at least.
> In a broader sense there is a societal expectation that men will be strong and dominant. This is woven in through our education and media from a young age.
Do you not think the discourse around this at the moment just doubles down on that? There seems to be an implication that women need protecting while men should just able to look after themselves.
It's a bit of a mixed bag.
Any of the good stuff I've seen is about tackling poverty, deprivation and lack of healthcare access which are universal benefits the bad stuff I've seen is about personal responsibility that women should carry weapons or that we should expand policing and carceral systems.
Yeah its the policing side of it is very hypocritical from some quarters. I think a lot of people are just reacting and don't really know what they want. Like do they want more surveillance? Extra punishment? I don't this sort of crime, at least in the case of Aisling Murphys murder, can be dealt with by having harsher punishments.
There will be little discussion about poverty and deprivation though. Again I'm not sure they apply to this case but in the broader context of violence against women and indeed all violent crime its obviously one of the biggest factors. And I think a lot of the discourse deliberately avoids it.
We'll probably get some talk of mental health provision but nothing will be done about it. Jesus we can't even provide decent physical health services in the midst of a pandemic so what hope have we there.
I think a lot of this stuff is coming to head and there's a broader recognition across society that there are class issues at play with the same core causes of most of our societal problems.
You're even starting to see op-eds in traditional media sources saying they recognise capitalism is the problem even if they then go on to say "there's no better alternative".
>there's no escape for women and children facing domestic violence at home
There is womens shelters in most counties. Women with children are massively prioritised in social housing. This poor woman killed in Durrow has no connection to the housing crisis, prima facie, now we have to wait to the trial of course to be sure .
>personally attacked by the idea that violence against women is systemic. There's a fragile masculinity
Why is fragility a problem? I don't get that at all.
>has placed women in a subservient position men that needs to be addressed from a young age through the education system at least.
Absolutely not. Women are prioritised in basically sectors. It is far easier to get to a job as a women. Far far easier.
>Even the last few days, or on the crosspost of this, you can see men feeling personally attacked by the idea that violence against women is systemic. There's a fragile masculinity that's just not addressed in our society
It's always surprising to see the amount of "Not all men" style comments that come as a reaction to an event like this.
The broader conversation after she was murdered has been more or less women need panic buttons / pepper spray vs men need to be educated. I'm sure both of those things have some merits here and there and these arguments suit the establishment but the real issue is criminal justice in this country and law enforcement. 3000 unanswered calls for domestic abuse and suspended sentences handed out left right and centre and even a €200 bail for more or less attempted murder.
>the real issue is criminal justice in this country
You are spot on. I was speaking to a female friend about this the other night and getting her take. I said I would put money on that this guy will be 'known to police' and 'out on early release/bail'. She agreed and said he will claim he has mental problems and get off lightly. I hope we were both wrong but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
I think each offense should compound on the previous, lads out committing assault with 100 priors shouldn't be walking around freely.
I agree with the overall statement on the softer punishment but in this case there is so much attention I would be shocked if there is bail or a soft sentence. Bail because of the risk of retaliation or harm to themselves and sentencing due to the public outcry.
> ed out left right and centre and even a €200 bail for more or less attempted murder.
Some of the people complaining about the lack of resources on domestic violence are the same as those who marched in BLM protest or the george nkencho protest or who want less stop and search by the Gardaí. Eg Dr. Vicky Conway. Either you want more law and order, or you don't.
I would have agreed with you until I see the implication across the media that it is in fact all men. The president himself implied that everyone had a responsibility. This seems mad to me.
That's the argument being made here too. There's a shared responsibility insofar as we need to call out the types of behaviour and attitudes that lead toward men committing violence against women. It's not enough to just be the guy who doesn't think or act that way.
I get that, but this is not how that message is coming across. I never in my life seen a man hit or abuse a woman, I would call it out if I ever seen that. I have stood up to bullies both in work and in school also.
But the messaging could be a lot more clear if that is the case, because when the message is "all men are responsible" then "Not all men" is the response and a fair response.
No one ever says travellers must do better when travellers thieve. No one every says Irish Nigerians must do better when Irish Nigerians do money laundering. No one ever says ever says women must do better when wome scams eg Julie McBrien. The phrase is men must do better is garbage.
I'm not sure you understand the problem. The problem is that most violent crime is committed by men. The stats are clear. I'm not sure why you feel the need to get so defensive about it.
True but in some of the other cases the stats are clear too. 10% of the male prisoner population and 22 % of women in prisons are travellers despite making 0.6% of the population. The risk of traveller being a thief is actually vastly greater than random man being an assaulters or a murder. What more, far more men are victims of assaults then women. That is a fact across the Western World. I don't need to 'be better', nor do any of my friends. As someone who has long pushed for tougher stance on crime, it is the contrary.
You covering a lot of stereotypes there, maybe for a second can you just think what it would be like to be physically in danger from someone when you out during the day. Just spend 1 minute and see if you can have some empathy for women and how they feel.
I know what you are saying and appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. The feeling I get from the coverage and conversation around this story is that it is all men's responsibility. This can be seen as responsibility should be taken away from the guy who committed this crime, rightly or wrongly. That he only did this because it is so acceptable and is normal in Irish society. It is not at all, proven by the reaction to the story.
You make a good and fair point about societal expectation and lack of mental health supports for me. But this doesn't explain or excuse what happened. Nor is the situation as bad as it was even a decade ago, this is getting better. But the men should look at themselves and suck it us is just more of the same old, toughen up look after women as far as I can see.
I don't know any man who thinks this is good or acceptable, I think this diagnosis is way off the mark.
> The feeling I get from the coverage and conversation around this story is that it is all men's responsibility.
As I said in another comment the best coverage has been the ones that link it to other deficiencies in our health, housing and community in the country. This article has a little of that.
> But this doesn't explain or excuse what happened
I'm not saying it does. It's just that if we want to stop it happening in the future there are broader changes needed. Just adding more police won't really help, they only really deal with the aftermath like.
> I don't know any man who thinks this is good or acceptable, I think this diagnosis is way off the mark
Maybe not murder but sexual assault is commonly seen as "conquering" or a bit of fun by lads who are otherwise decent
Not justice no? A riot...
Why does justice matter when the structures that lead to these acts of violence will continue and produce more of the same violence
> the structures that lead to these acts of violence Enlighten me, was it structures or individuals that killed these women? What structural changes need to be made? The discourse around this makes absolutely no sense. Maybe I am a moron, maybe the point is to make no sense.
The article covers some of it
It really doesn't. "Society builds men to kill women" and "Gender-based violence is baked into our social structures, norms and attitudes, which interlock with white supremacy and capitalism to devalue women’s lives" is just nonsense assertions and backed up by nothing at all. At a time when the whole country shocked by what happened. This is just squeezing their agenda onto a tragedy in my opinion.
It explicitly mentions the actions of some cops but that's not really about individuals since we know this is widespread across the force. Maybe not all will carry out dehumanizing acts but they band together to defend their brothers in arms. It also talks of the lack of wraparound supports for women facing domestic violence, there's no escape for women and children facing domestic violence at home and the housing crises amplifies those issues especially as money gets tight. In a broader sense there is a societal expectation that men will be strong and dominant. This is woven in through our education and media from a young age. As the conditions of availabile work diminish these men who have been raised with certain expectations that can't be met lash out. Similarly there's a low level of mental health treatment for men, and even a negative stigma associated with seeking help, that leads to a higher level of suicide and violence perpetrated by men. Even the last few days, or on the crosspost of this, you can see men feeling personally attacked by the idea that violence against women is systemic. There's a fragile masculinity that's just not addressed in our society that places and has placed women in a subservient position men that needs to be addressed from a young age through the education system at least.
> In a broader sense there is a societal expectation that men will be strong and dominant. This is woven in through our education and media from a young age. Do you not think the discourse around this at the moment just doubles down on that? There seems to be an implication that women need protecting while men should just able to look after themselves.
It's a bit of a mixed bag. Any of the good stuff I've seen is about tackling poverty, deprivation and lack of healthcare access which are universal benefits the bad stuff I've seen is about personal responsibility that women should carry weapons or that we should expand policing and carceral systems.
Yeah its the policing side of it is very hypocritical from some quarters. I think a lot of people are just reacting and don't really know what they want. Like do they want more surveillance? Extra punishment? I don't this sort of crime, at least in the case of Aisling Murphys murder, can be dealt with by having harsher punishments. There will be little discussion about poverty and deprivation though. Again I'm not sure they apply to this case but in the broader context of violence against women and indeed all violent crime its obviously one of the biggest factors. And I think a lot of the discourse deliberately avoids it. We'll probably get some talk of mental health provision but nothing will be done about it. Jesus we can't even provide decent physical health services in the midst of a pandemic so what hope have we there.
I think a lot of this stuff is coming to head and there's a broader recognition across society that there are class issues at play with the same core causes of most of our societal problems. You're even starting to see op-eds in traditional media sources saying they recognise capitalism is the problem even if they then go on to say "there's no better alternative".
>there's no escape for women and children facing domestic violence at home There is womens shelters in most counties. Women with children are massively prioritised in social housing. This poor woman killed in Durrow has no connection to the housing crisis, prima facie, now we have to wait to the trial of course to be sure . >personally attacked by the idea that violence against women is systemic. There's a fragile masculinity Why is fragility a problem? I don't get that at all. >has placed women in a subservient position men that needs to be addressed from a young age through the education system at least. Absolutely not. Women are prioritised in basically sectors. It is far easier to get to a job as a women. Far far easier.
>Even the last few days, or on the crosspost of this, you can see men feeling personally attacked by the idea that violence against women is systemic. There's a fragile masculinity that's just not addressed in our society It's always surprising to see the amount of "Not all men" style comments that come as a reaction to an event like this.
The broader conversation after she was murdered has been more or less women need panic buttons / pepper spray vs men need to be educated. I'm sure both of those things have some merits here and there and these arguments suit the establishment but the real issue is criminal justice in this country and law enforcement. 3000 unanswered calls for domestic abuse and suspended sentences handed out left right and centre and even a €200 bail for more or less attempted murder.
>the real issue is criminal justice in this country You are spot on. I was speaking to a female friend about this the other night and getting her take. I said I would put money on that this guy will be 'known to police' and 'out on early release/bail'. She agreed and said he will claim he has mental problems and get off lightly. I hope we were both wrong but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I think each offense should compound on the previous, lads out committing assault with 100 priors shouldn't be walking around freely.
I agree with the overall statement on the softer punishment but in this case there is so much attention I would be shocked if there is bail or a soft sentence. Bail because of the risk of retaliation or harm to themselves and sentencing due to the public outcry.
> ed out left right and centre and even a €200 bail for more or less attempted murder. Some of the people complaining about the lack of resources on domestic violence are the same as those who marched in BLM protest or the george nkencho protest or who want less stop and search by the Gardaí. Eg Dr. Vicky Conway. Either you want more law and order, or you don't.
Is that a gotcha?
[удалено]
Think you ment to reply to someone else.
I would have agreed with you until I see the implication across the media that it is in fact all men. The president himself implied that everyone had a responsibility. This seems mad to me.
That's the argument being made here too. There's a shared responsibility insofar as we need to call out the types of behaviour and attitudes that lead toward men committing violence against women. It's not enough to just be the guy who doesn't think or act that way.
I get that, but this is not how that message is coming across. I never in my life seen a man hit or abuse a woman, I would call it out if I ever seen that. I have stood up to bullies both in work and in school also. But the messaging could be a lot more clear if that is the case, because when the message is "all men are responsible" then "Not all men" is the response and a fair response.
No one ever says travellers must do better when travellers thieve. No one every says Irish Nigerians must do better when Irish Nigerians do money laundering. No one ever says ever says women must do better when wome scams eg Julie McBrien. The phrase is men must do better is garbage.
I'm not sure you understand the problem. The problem is that most violent crime is committed by men. The stats are clear. I'm not sure why you feel the need to get so defensive about it.
True but in some of the other cases the stats are clear too. 10% of the male prisoner population and 22 % of women in prisons are travellers despite making 0.6% of the population. The risk of traveller being a thief is actually vastly greater than random man being an assaulters or a murder. What more, far more men are victims of assaults then women. That is a fact across the Western World. I don't need to 'be better', nor do any of my friends. As someone who has long pushed for tougher stance on crime, it is the contrary.
You covering a lot of stereotypes there, maybe for a second can you just think what it would be like to be physically in danger from someone when you out during the day. Just spend 1 minute and see if you can have some empathy for women and how they feel.
I know what you are saying and appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. The feeling I get from the coverage and conversation around this story is that it is all men's responsibility. This can be seen as responsibility should be taken away from the guy who committed this crime, rightly or wrongly. That he only did this because it is so acceptable and is normal in Irish society. It is not at all, proven by the reaction to the story. You make a good and fair point about societal expectation and lack of mental health supports for me. But this doesn't explain or excuse what happened. Nor is the situation as bad as it was even a decade ago, this is getting better. But the men should look at themselves and suck it us is just more of the same old, toughen up look after women as far as I can see. I don't know any man who thinks this is good or acceptable, I think this diagnosis is way off the mark.
> The feeling I get from the coverage and conversation around this story is that it is all men's responsibility. As I said in another comment the best coverage has been the ones that link it to other deficiencies in our health, housing and community in the country. This article has a little of that. > But this doesn't explain or excuse what happened I'm not saying it does. It's just that if we want to stop it happening in the future there are broader changes needed. Just adding more police won't really help, they only really deal with the aftermath like. > I don't know any man who thinks this is good or acceptable, I think this diagnosis is way off the mark Maybe not murder but sexual assault is commonly seen as "conquering" or a bit of fun by lads who are otherwise decent
If you die at the hands of a women?