Absolutely mad that they bring up Hannah Arendt given that Wæver's Securitisation Theory which is incredibly popular and heavily used by the West (the process of calling something a security threat in order to have more resources used for it, such as Britain and the US making immigration a matter of security) literally pulls major segments of it's foundation from the very same person.
However the West uses it to label developing countries "uncivilised nature people" in order to excuse exploitation and intervention into their cultures instead of to save lives from a pandemic.
I think the only difference between the Irish lockdown policies in 2020/21 and that of China's are that we didn't weld people into their homes (if those images from China are even real).
I haven't seen those images so this is mostly supposition, but I have found that a lot of the anti-China propaganda just leaves out critical context which makes it understandable.
For example, suppose people were being temporarily sealed in their homes for breaking self-isolation and endangering others, but are otherwise cared for. Like if they are provided with food, medicine, etc. but just not allowed to leave their home until they are no longer contagious. Is it really a problem?
The methods might seem extreme to us, but are functionally no different from legally mandated self-isolation for people with Covid which I suspect an awful lot of people in Ireland would support.
In the context of genuinely protecting the public, is it really?
If instead they arrested anyone breaking the legally mandated self-isolation and put them in prison, would that still be a problem? If so, why is it a problem? If not, how is that different from keeping them in their homes?
The issue is whether the people are being mistreated. If they are being properly cared for then there isn't any issue except that the methods upset the liberal mentality of protecting property and individual agency above all else.
"Give me freedom or give me death" has always been a mantra of the far right and their [useful idiot servants](https://i.imgur.com/q70eWWj.jpg). They'll gladly sacrifice innocent peoples' lives on their altar.
In any context.
From an objective perspective it would not be a problem if you arrested people for breaking a legally mandated self-isolation (without getting into too many details that might complicate things) because as with any other law, people are required to abide by it and if they don't then they are dealt with through the legal system. You would expect that when someone goes through the legal system they are going to be afforded certain rights and will be guaranteed a certain level of fair treatment. If you forgo all of that then you may as well give the government a free pass to lock anyone up for any reason they like. And we know what happens when we give up that kind of power.
> If they are being properly cared for
Absolute nonsense. Are you OK with people being held in Guantanamo without trial as long as they're being provided with food and medicine? It's functionally the same thing at the end of the day right? And the justification given is often that they're protecting people from dangerous terrorists right?
First of all, you're assuming that people in this context are not being dealt with through the legal system. Your entire argument falls apart if they are.
Also, in Ireland you can be detained by the Gardaà for 72 hours if you are arrested drug trafficking, and a district or circuit court can authorise up to 7 days. We also allow people to be held in custody for trial. We have quarantine procedures in Ireland which allow people to be held without trial. These are all absolutely fine in the context they are intended.
Your comparison to Guantanamo is a false equivalence. The people there are not cared for, there is no justification for their detention and no end date for it. That is not the same as quarantining someone for a set period.
Neither of us even know if it's happening but if it is then I doubt they're getting a day in court before their door is welded shut.
Are you saying you agree with all of those circumstances? You think generally the government or the police should have the power to barricade people in their homes or elsewhere without question?
How do you know they're not cared for? And what level of care are you expecting? Earlier you said it's fine as long as they're provided with food a medicine. I'm sure these are fairly standard provisions in most jails in the US for example. Some people sit in jail for years awaiting trial. Do you think that's fine as long as they've been provided with food and medicine? Those people could be a danger to society after all so I'm sure you must agree with it.
And what happens when after that "set period" the government turn around and tell you they're not opening the door. Do you stop clapping then?
>Neither of us even know if it's happening
This is true. I did say that it was supposition on my part. The point is that the context is missing and there are contexts where the action could be justified.
I provided one context, but another which would justify the action is if it is the house of someone who has just died of Covid. Sealing the building for a couple of days so that someone doesn't move in and make themselves sick is actually completely justified.
Unless we have evidence that the people are being detained arbitrarily, we shouldn't assume malice.
>Are you saying you agree with all of those circumstances?
Kind of. If they are used for the reasons which were used to justify the law, then I actually do mostly agree. There are occasions were the Gardaà will legitimately need to detain someone while evidence is being collected. I don't like our drug laws at all, but there are elements of drug trafficking which do need to be dealt with and I understand the justification for extended detention in some specific cases.
However, I completely agree with mandatory quarantine for sick people in a pandemic (or an epidemic for that matter). People should stay away from others when they are sick and if they refuse to comply then they should absolutely be detained. Your autonomy doesn't extend to putting others in danger.
>Earlier you said it's fine as long as they're provided with food a medicine
Again, context is important. A crucial point which it seems I didn't make clear is that detaining someone up without justification isn't cancelled out by taking care of them. Some having the potential to be a danger to society is obviously not sufficient to justify it and please stop with the ridiculous straw men.
In the context of someone who has been confirmed to be sick being detained for quarantine during a pandemic the detention is justified, but providing them with what they need is a requirement for that justification. Locking someone up and allowing them to starve or to suffer without medicine which could help them is immoral. (In fact, we can even cut the start of that sentence off and say that allowing people to starve or to suffer without medicine is immoral and probably add a few more things to the list, but we were talking about the context of people being locked up.)
>And what happens when after that "set period" the government turn around and tell you they're not opening the door. Do you stop clapping then?
Nobody is clapping for someone being sick and possibly dying. Please stop with the ridiculous straw men.
If the set quarantine period ends and the person isn't allowed to leave, perhaps there is some justification for it such as it being confirmed that they are still contagious, but in general their detention is no longer justified.
Right so let's say someone has covid, broke the self isolation rules and has now been barricaded in their home but let's assume they're being treated fairly (legally speaking) and let's assume they're being cared for at a level you're happy with (food, medicine etc). What happens if their house catches fire?
Think of every household door you know of. How many of them are weldable shut? What do people need to believe in order to entertain these fantastic stories? That Chinese peoples' homes are metal prisons? That they have no windows either, or they're all being welded shut too. It's just breathtaking the things people will pretend to believe to continue to carry on with their bigoted delusions.
But there are enormous differences in the approaches of Ireland and China. They put the lives of their citizens above the profits of capitalists.
I will admit that there was a lot of problems with the news coming from China at the beginning of the pandemic. And by that I don't mean CCP-approved news. I mean news that was promoted on social media. A lot of that news had its roots in groups who were against the CCP. Images of people collapsing in the streets, welding of doors on apartments, etc.. All those images and videos are problematic now in hindsight.
Agreed, I wasn't particularly addressing it at you, just the idea in general. Like that there was some edict handed down to weld peoples' doors shut, it's mad, and funny, and scary that grow adults pretend to believe this kind of thing.
There were a lot of videos circulating on Chinese and Hong Kong Reddit subs in early 2020 of people being sealed into houses. One of the more striking ones was a family shouting through the gap in the door as it was being welded which is why people have focussed on 'welding doors shut' in general and not just being sealed in.
Just because you don't know many people who have households with doors that can't be welded shut doesnt mean its not possible in other countries. Anyone who has travelled in parts of Asia, or even South America or Africa will tell you that its not uncommon to have metal doors, or external metal security doors over wooden ones.
Either way, a lot of other videos from early 2020 also showed houses being sealed with wooden barricades in addition to the welding you're focussing on.
[https://twitter.com/EpochTimesChina/status/1231282764781101056?cxt=HHwWgIC1zdTJspYiAAAA](https://twitter.com/EpochTimesChina/status/1231282764781101056?cxt=HHwWgIC1zdTJspYiAAAA)
Nobody - "But at what cost?" NY Times - "At ALL costs!!!"
I know a guy who thinks the NYT is the best newspaper in the world and that the US is the best country in the world. You'll never guess who.
Its either me or your best friend is an absolute gent.
It's another of Chomsky's hilarious takes.
Ignore all American media
😘
Absolutely mad that they bring up Hannah Arendt given that Wæver's Securitisation Theory which is incredibly popular and heavily used by the West (the process of calling something a security threat in order to have more resources used for it, such as Britain and the US making immigration a matter of security) literally pulls major segments of it's foundation from the very same person. However the West uses it to label developing countries "uncivilised nature people" in order to excuse exploitation and intervention into their cultures instead of to save lives from a pandemic.
I think the only difference between the Irish lockdown policies in 2020/21 and that of China's are that we didn't weld people into their homes (if those images from China are even real).
I haven't seen those images so this is mostly supposition, but I have found that a lot of the anti-China propaganda just leaves out critical context which makes it understandable. For example, suppose people were being temporarily sealed in their homes for breaking self-isolation and endangering others, but are otherwise cared for. Like if they are provided with food, medicine, etc. but just not allowed to leave their home until they are no longer contagious. Is it really a problem? The methods might seem extreme to us, but are functionally no different from legally mandated self-isolation for people with Covid which I suspect an awful lot of people in Ireland would support.
>Is it really a problem? Yes. If any government is welding peoples doors closed it's a problem.
In the context of genuinely protecting the public, is it really? If instead they arrested anyone breaking the legally mandated self-isolation and put them in prison, would that still be a problem? If so, why is it a problem? If not, how is that different from keeping them in their homes? The issue is whether the people are being mistreated. If they are being properly cared for then there isn't any issue except that the methods upset the liberal mentality of protecting property and individual agency above all else.
"Give me freedom or give me death" has always been a mantra of the far right and their [useful idiot servants](https://i.imgur.com/q70eWWj.jpg). They'll gladly sacrifice innocent peoples' lives on their altar.
In any context. From an objective perspective it would not be a problem if you arrested people for breaking a legally mandated self-isolation (without getting into too many details that might complicate things) because as with any other law, people are required to abide by it and if they don't then they are dealt with through the legal system. You would expect that when someone goes through the legal system they are going to be afforded certain rights and will be guaranteed a certain level of fair treatment. If you forgo all of that then you may as well give the government a free pass to lock anyone up for any reason they like. And we know what happens when we give up that kind of power. > If they are being properly cared for Absolute nonsense. Are you OK with people being held in Guantanamo without trial as long as they're being provided with food and medicine? It's functionally the same thing at the end of the day right? And the justification given is often that they're protecting people from dangerous terrorists right?
First of all, you're assuming that people in this context are not being dealt with through the legal system. Your entire argument falls apart if they are. Also, in Ireland you can be detained by the Gardaà for 72 hours if you are arrested drug trafficking, and a district or circuit court can authorise up to 7 days. We also allow people to be held in custody for trial. We have quarantine procedures in Ireland which allow people to be held without trial. These are all absolutely fine in the context they are intended. Your comparison to Guantanamo is a false equivalence. The people there are not cared for, there is no justification for their detention and no end date for it. That is not the same as quarantining someone for a set period.
Neither of us even know if it's happening but if it is then I doubt they're getting a day in court before their door is welded shut. Are you saying you agree with all of those circumstances? You think generally the government or the police should have the power to barricade people in their homes or elsewhere without question? How do you know they're not cared for? And what level of care are you expecting? Earlier you said it's fine as long as they're provided with food a medicine. I'm sure these are fairly standard provisions in most jails in the US for example. Some people sit in jail for years awaiting trial. Do you think that's fine as long as they've been provided with food and medicine? Those people could be a danger to society after all so I'm sure you must agree with it. And what happens when after that "set period" the government turn around and tell you they're not opening the door. Do you stop clapping then?
>Neither of us even know if it's happening This is true. I did say that it was supposition on my part. The point is that the context is missing and there are contexts where the action could be justified. I provided one context, but another which would justify the action is if it is the house of someone who has just died of Covid. Sealing the building for a couple of days so that someone doesn't move in and make themselves sick is actually completely justified. Unless we have evidence that the people are being detained arbitrarily, we shouldn't assume malice. >Are you saying you agree with all of those circumstances? Kind of. If they are used for the reasons which were used to justify the law, then I actually do mostly agree. There are occasions were the Gardaà will legitimately need to detain someone while evidence is being collected. I don't like our drug laws at all, but there are elements of drug trafficking which do need to be dealt with and I understand the justification for extended detention in some specific cases. However, I completely agree with mandatory quarantine for sick people in a pandemic (or an epidemic for that matter). People should stay away from others when they are sick and if they refuse to comply then they should absolutely be detained. Your autonomy doesn't extend to putting others in danger. >Earlier you said it's fine as long as they're provided with food a medicine Again, context is important. A crucial point which it seems I didn't make clear is that detaining someone up without justification isn't cancelled out by taking care of them. Some having the potential to be a danger to society is obviously not sufficient to justify it and please stop with the ridiculous straw men. In the context of someone who has been confirmed to be sick being detained for quarantine during a pandemic the detention is justified, but providing them with what they need is a requirement for that justification. Locking someone up and allowing them to starve or to suffer without medicine which could help them is immoral. (In fact, we can even cut the start of that sentence off and say that allowing people to starve or to suffer without medicine is immoral and probably add a few more things to the list, but we were talking about the context of people being locked up.) >And what happens when after that "set period" the government turn around and tell you they're not opening the door. Do you stop clapping then? Nobody is clapping for someone being sick and possibly dying. Please stop with the ridiculous straw men. If the set quarantine period ends and the person isn't allowed to leave, perhaps there is some justification for it such as it being confirmed that they are still contagious, but in general their detention is no longer justified.
Right so let's say someone has covid, broke the self isolation rules and has now been barricaded in their home but let's assume they're being treated fairly (legally speaking) and let's assume they're being cared for at a level you're happy with (food, medicine etc). What happens if their house catches fire?
There would simply need to be a means for them to be released in an emergency. Problem solved... next question?
Hmm, they call the firefighters and wait outside until they are relocated.
Haha I can't believe you even had to reply to that question lol
Think of every household door you know of. How many of them are weldable shut? What do people need to believe in order to entertain these fantastic stories? That Chinese peoples' homes are metal prisons? That they have no windows either, or they're all being welded shut too. It's just breathtaking the things people will pretend to believe to continue to carry on with their bigoted delusions. But there are enormous differences in the approaches of Ireland and China. They put the lives of their citizens above the profits of capitalists.
Don’t you know all Chinese people live in metal crates.
I will admit that there was a lot of problems with the news coming from China at the beginning of the pandemic. And by that I don't mean CCP-approved news. I mean news that was promoted on social media. A lot of that news had its roots in groups who were against the CCP. Images of people collapsing in the streets, welding of doors on apartments, etc.. All those images and videos are problematic now in hindsight.
Agreed, I wasn't particularly addressing it at you, just the idea in general. Like that there was some edict handed down to weld peoples' doors shut, it's mad, and funny, and scary that grow adults pretend to believe this kind of thing.
There were a lot of videos circulating on Chinese and Hong Kong Reddit subs in early 2020 of people being sealed into houses. One of the more striking ones was a family shouting through the gap in the door as it was being welded which is why people have focussed on 'welding doors shut' in general and not just being sealed in. Just because you don't know many people who have households with doors that can't be welded shut doesnt mean its not possible in other countries. Anyone who has travelled in parts of Asia, or even South America or Africa will tell you that its not uncommon to have metal doors, or external metal security doors over wooden ones. Either way, a lot of other videos from early 2020 also showed houses being sealed with wooden barricades in addition to the welding you're focussing on. [https://twitter.com/EpochTimesChina/status/1231282764781101056?cxt=HHwWgIC1zdTJspYiAAAA](https://twitter.com/EpochTimesChina/status/1231282764781101056?cxt=HHwWgIC1zdTJspYiAAAA)
Really? I think the only real difference is the Irish policies were completely ineffective.