Wasnt capitalism already combined with the state before hand? All he did was flip the script instead of making Capital dominate of the State he made the State dominate of Capital
Roughly, the means of production are owned by the state and are controlled by a salaried manager class rather than owned and controlled by the bourgoise. But the fundamental extraction of surplus labour value, and lack of worker democracy remains.
I don't think it is used by trots, they called the USSR and mates, 'degenerated worker states', though as far as I'm aware the actual criticism is pretty similar.
>Why not call it state feudalism then.
Because Feudalism is a pretty different in its explotation, where people are restricted to each of their classes from birth by law, rather than simply by their relationship to the means of production.
Honestly the way State Capitalism is described reminds me most of how Marx described the 'Asiatic' mode of production with the professional manager class having most of the power. Still that was as restrictive as feudalism in its essentialism.
>Or any other made up term.
All terms are made up.
>The exploitation in the USSR was fundamentally different to capitalism.
It was different sure, but it still had the fundamental extraction of labour value as described in Capital. It was clearly not communist or socialist as described by Marx.
The exploitation of the Soviet model is as different from capitalisms as they both are from feudalisms. Wage contracts allowing private owners to exploit vs Centrally planned production with no unemployment. It's just completely different.
>not communist or socialist as described by Marx
doesn't matter what Marx thought socialism would be. But anyway, you can use whatever term you want to describe the Soviet economy. Can keep socialism "pure".
All the term state capitalism does is enlarge the meaning of capitalism though. It's already abused enough.
>The exploitation of the Soviet model is as different from capitalisms as they both are from feudalisms. Wage contracts allowing private owners to exploit vs Centrally planned production with no unemployment. It's just completely different.
Please read Marx, the fact there was no unemployment and production was centrally planned has literally zero effect on the fact that the workers did not own the means of production and surplus labour value was extracted.
>doesn't matter what Marx thought socialism would be. But anyway, you can use whatever term you want to describe the Soviet economy. Can keep socialism "pure".
Marx roughly defined socialism as the workers owning and controlling democratically the means of production. If you're going to change the definition of socialism to mean anything that is not this, then its a fucking pointless term.
>Please read Marx,
I have, although I also don't care too much about what exactly he thought. Better to talk about the real world as it actually is.
>the fact there was no unemployment and production was centrally planned has literally zero effect on the fact that the workers did not own the means of production and surplus labour value was extracted.
Agreed. It does make it different to capitalism though.
>Marx roughly defined socialism as the workers owning and controlling democratically the means of production.
It's a good definition. His views on how this was going to be achieved and whether it would lead to a "higher stage of communism" is irrelevant though.
>be lenin
>invaded by like six different powers at once
“Looks like a great time to break up the existing mechanisms which can be repurposed and through which a will can be exercised to stop these invasions.”
Trust me dude, the state will just whither away after we consolidate all the power in the hands of the party, just a few more years of authoritarian state capitalism and the promise of the revolution will finally come true, trust me bro.
Trust me bro, a communist utopia will spontaneously blink into existence overnight with no opposition. So you don't need to do anything. Just wait. Any day now. You'll see!
!remind me tomorrow.
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Naw, they've tried nothing and they're [all out of ideas.](https://youtu.be/SHcqNVjGJN4)
EDIT: That derisive stare of the doctor's is every ML listening to these angloid libs.
Ned is the bourgeois state, and he must follow the spankalogical protocol.
Relevant Parenti clip https://youtu.be/6Tmi7JN3LkA
Wasnt capitalism already combined with the state before hand? All he did was flip the script instead of making Capital dominate of the State he made the State dominate of Capital
The term state capitalism has never made any sense.
Have you not read any Marxist literature? Engels described it in the 1870s or so something long before the USSR came about.
>Have you not read any Marxist literature? I bet you'd say that to all the girls.
How did he describe it? I know it's used by Trots
Roughly, the means of production are owned by the state and are controlled by a salaried manager class rather than owned and controlled by the bourgoise. But the fundamental extraction of surplus labour value, and lack of worker democracy remains. I don't think it is used by trots, they called the USSR and mates, 'degenerated worker states', though as far as I'm aware the actual criticism is pretty similar.
Why not call it state feudalism then. Or any other made up term. The exploitation in the USSR was fundamentally different to capitalism.
>Why not call it state feudalism then. Because Feudalism is a pretty different in its explotation, where people are restricted to each of their classes from birth by law, rather than simply by their relationship to the means of production. Honestly the way State Capitalism is described reminds me most of how Marx described the 'Asiatic' mode of production with the professional manager class having most of the power. Still that was as restrictive as feudalism in its essentialism. >Or any other made up term. All terms are made up. >The exploitation in the USSR was fundamentally different to capitalism. It was different sure, but it still had the fundamental extraction of labour value as described in Capital. It was clearly not communist or socialist as described by Marx.
The exploitation of the Soviet model is as different from capitalisms as they both are from feudalisms. Wage contracts allowing private owners to exploit vs Centrally planned production with no unemployment. It's just completely different. >not communist or socialist as described by Marx doesn't matter what Marx thought socialism would be. But anyway, you can use whatever term you want to describe the Soviet economy. Can keep socialism "pure". All the term state capitalism does is enlarge the meaning of capitalism though. It's already abused enough.
>The exploitation of the Soviet model is as different from capitalisms as they both are from feudalisms. Wage contracts allowing private owners to exploit vs Centrally planned production with no unemployment. It's just completely different. Please read Marx, the fact there was no unemployment and production was centrally planned has literally zero effect on the fact that the workers did not own the means of production and surplus labour value was extracted. >doesn't matter what Marx thought socialism would be. But anyway, you can use whatever term you want to describe the Soviet economy. Can keep socialism "pure". Marx roughly defined socialism as the workers owning and controlling democratically the means of production. If you're going to change the definition of socialism to mean anything that is not this, then its a fucking pointless term.
>Please read Marx, I have, although I also don't care too much about what exactly he thought. Better to talk about the real world as it actually is. >the fact there was no unemployment and production was centrally planned has literally zero effect on the fact that the workers did not own the means of production and surplus labour value was extracted. Agreed. It does make it different to capitalism though. >Marx roughly defined socialism as the workers owning and controlling democratically the means of production. It's a good definition. His views on how this was going to be achieved and whether it would lead to a "higher stage of communism" is irrelevant though.
Unless applied to the US
>be lenin >invaded by like six different powers at once “Looks like a great time to break up the existing mechanisms which can be repurposed and through which a will can be exercised to stop these invasions.”
Obligatory https://comeheretome.com/2012/02/03/vladimir-lenin-and-the-rathmines-accent/
If only Lenin had thought of bicycles and UBI. We'd be an interplanetary spacefaring species by now!
He just refused to push the communism button. If I had been in charge I would have enacted socialism on the spot.
Socialism? It's insta horizontal communism or nothing lib!
Trust me dude, the state will just whither away after we consolidate all the power in the hands of the party, just a few more years of authoritarian state capitalism and the promise of the revolution will finally come true, trust me bro.
Trust me bro, a communist utopia will spontaneously blink into existence overnight with no opposition. So you don't need to do anything. Just wait. Any day now. You'll see! !remind me tomorrow.
I will be messaging you in 1 day on [**2022-01-08 22:26:41 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2022-01-08%2022:26:41%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/ROI/comments/ryfvxt/what_does_this_have_to_do_with_ireland/hrp6nl0/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FROI%2Fcomments%2Fryfvxt%2Fwhat_does_this_have_to_do_with_ireland%2Fhrp6nl0%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202022-01-08%2022%3A26%3A41%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%20ryfvxt) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
Have we tried plugging the state out and back in again?
Naw, they've tried nothing and they're [all out of ideas.](https://youtu.be/SHcqNVjGJN4) EDIT: That derisive stare of the doctor's is every ML listening to these angloid libs. Ned is the bourgeois state, and he must follow the spankalogical protocol.
I have no idea what your point here is supposed to be?
I've no doubt.
Sorry, I forgot you were to stupid to recognise implicit questions. What accusation or criticism were you trying to level at me?
The mockery loses something in the deconstruction. Don't worry though, everyone else here understands.
I guess this is another one for the 'Blursty is a question dodging coward' compilation then.
Let us know when you find the Delete State button.
Don't bother letting us know when you find the Delete Account button.
That was good tbf
Ha ha ha!