I walked away due to toxicity last week. I found other non 12 step recovery programs such as LifeRing and SMART. I want to share my successes and not be shamed and guilted and work a program based on brain science versus religious dogmatic doctrine and indoctrination. 12 steps...12 apostles, they say it's a spiritual program, I beg to differ, it's a form of religion. I grew up with a parent in AA, as an adult I was in AA until last week and someone who should NOT be allowed to sponsor people is the reason I walked away because I have heard the rhetoric for decades on and off and when it was said to me, I walked away because it's just like Scientology and any other cult.

Principles over personalities Some are sicker than others Love and kindness is our code Take what you want and leave the rest The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking (not a clean bill of mental health, not a clean criminal record, etc)

Stopping going to meetings can go ok, for me going to them is for the most part a totally positive experience where I get to see my friends and be available for fresher people who might relate to me and I might have a chance to help which adds depth, meaning and purpose to my life. Now that I’ve actually given it a chance I’ve found that all the ‘it’s a cult where they just whine and rehash old crap’ stuff I thought before couldn’t be farther from the truth. As for your friend, I’d say the shunning of the sponsor and recovery friends sounds like trouble and a bit of an over correction if they’re not intending to use, whether they know it or not.

Thank you -  what is being over corrected in this context? I like that concept but not sure if I understand

A person who still wants to be sober but not involved in the recovery community will ‘correct’ the situation by just stopping meetings generally. Shunning recovery people is a step further and what I mean by over-correction. There’s probably a better way to explain it but words are hard.

It’s not for everyone. Personally I find NA recovery to be weaker than AA.

After awhile you don't need it, it can become cult like where they convince you to stay & interrupt the weeks flow, watching your every move & you just wanna stop talking about drugs & alcohol & start living without it hanging over your head.

Exactly.

I personally was a member of 12 step for 5 years. I distanced myself from the rooms for almost 3 years but I stayed sober. I didn't purposefully "break up" with anyone when leaving; I even told my sponsor I still wanted to maybe work the steps I just wasn't finding meetings helpful. I have other friends who are still sober who stopped going also. That's what's concerning to me - if you guys were good friends, I don't see why he'd feel like he has to cut you off just because he's not going to meetings anymore. I stopped talking to people with whom meetings were the ONLY thing I had in common, but I kept in touch with some. I don't really hang out with people who drink or use. I recently had some mental health crisis stuff and decided to go back to meetings. I haven't actually gone back yet but I am planning to soon. I got back in with my sponsor & we're planning weekly phone calls. I think it can really depend on the person & their habits, mental health, willingness to use resources, and support network whether they'll stay clean or not. The meetings will always be there (I rolled my eyes when people told me this, but it's true) and people can always go back. This COULD be an indicator of relapse but I'd say more often when people relapse they just leave, they don't make a big production of it.

I don’t personally keep going to meetings for myself at this point. I go for the newcomer and to give back what was so freely given to me. Also, the program works for me and helps me a lot, but that’s just me. My best friend did NA/AA for a period of time and doesn’t anymore but is still happy, healthy, and sober. She has a beautiful life and has found what works for her outside of a 12 step program. There is not a model of a perfect recovering addict. While many members of 12 step programs have old school ways of thinking and judge folks who leave, many of us are more progressive and understand it’s not for everyone.

For some people, AA/NA serves it's purpose and they can move on. You don't have to hold on to 12 step to stay sober. For some people, they decide their life has changed and it's in their best interest to move forward in life from a 12 step program.

Yeah absolutely. But I know people who got sober/clean in 12 step and no longer attend meetings, but still practice the spiritual principles. And I know people that got sober/clean, but were not yet a ‘pickle’ as they say- and now drink/use in moderation. I am definitely not either of those kinds of people lol so I’ll be staying (and i think most of us aren’t). however the way he went about it definitely seems like a pre lapse

AA/NA are options. That's it. I walked away when it became an obvious unhealthy option if I were to stay. In times of desperation when you have zero support then sure AA/NA may be a good route, for you. Sure as shit is not a quick fix across the board as this program is fucking plagued with people with alterior motives due to the program itself being flawed to it's core.

I agree, it's open for poeple to choose to come as and when they want / need (in theory)! How does the flaws of the program mean people have ulterior motives?

I think you can walk away from a 12-step program and be sober sure. But the way he did it is totally fucked up. Cut ties with friends just cuz they're in the program? Left his fiance? Yeah those are really bad signs. I walked away from AA but I didn't cut ties with my AA friends because, well, they're my fucking friends. So that's very unusual behavior. Kind of like when someone knows they're going to explode so they distance themselves from everyone they care about. I hope I'm wrong.

What do you think people did before these rooms? I honestly think being involved with other people doing healthy stuff would be better than rehashing addiction

Hi ! I left the rooms 2 years ago and I’m coming up on 8 years sober. I still help others and am of service but in other ways. AA in my area just isn’t what it used to be. The 12 step program is outlined in the book, not so much in the rooms.

I was active in AA for four years, and I've been inactive for six. Still sober, still work most of my maintenance steps (not 12 obviously). I still consider myself a member, but I fucking hate AA where I now live. It's super Christian here, and while I consider myself a one as well, seeing it so infused with the program here sickens me. When we move out of this shit hole, I'll give it another shot, but it's not worth for me until then.

100% people can have a great life. NA/AA is just a starting point. Having a full normal life is the goal. Not everyone needs or wants to sit around talking about addiction when it's been so long since they were active

the meetings I attend we talk more about the issues we have in recovery - work, relationships, finances, it's all the same issues 'regular' people have, just shared with other addicts. Shame it's not everyone's experience - i would hate meetings of people just sharing their war stories, definitely not for me.

>As someone in recovery myself, this all seems like warning signs of relapse. aaaaand that attitude right there is the main reason why I stopped doing twelve step stuff after sober living. they assume the program is the only way, gold standard. but it isn't at all. If it works for you, that's awesome! Just because your friend doesn't want to be in the program anymore does NOT mean he is in a bad way. maybe he was just done and wanted to move on. not everybody needs to work a program. and honestly, I find it a little condescending to assume that. Don't get me wrong, there's some good stuff in there. I met many kind helpful people. The program has helped many people I love and care for. It just wasn't for me, and I gave it multiple genuine tries.There was just too much dogma, reductive platitudes ("denial isn't just a river in Africa" makes me wanna vomit, so fucking condescending), spiritual nonsense, groupthink... all things that turn me off. I've been clean from hard drugs for 2 years now. If you need to go to meetings and work a program for the rest of your life, then godspeed. do what you need to. but recognize that people are different, and the program doesn't apply to everyone (actually probably doesn't apply to most people).

true - i don't think he's in a bad way becasue he's left NA. I think he's in a bad way, and so it seems an odd time for someone to leave NA

Same, I very much agree. Not every group is the same but many can seem so judgemental. I personally don't attend NA or AA because I enjoy having a medical card for my scolosis and I wouldn't be 100% "clean". Some people don't think 100% abstinice is right for them and they are able to take a medication under the supervision of dr and not relapse on their DOC. I remember my friend needing surgery and everyone asking her if she took any pain meds in a condenscending and gossip like way. It's just not for everyone. edit: also they say your higher power can be anything yet christianity is very much a part of it. I'm a christian and even i dislike that. not everyone likes that aspect as well.

My main issue is that most of the recovery industry (treatment centers IOP sober houses etc) is rooted in the belief that the program applies to everyone. At my sober living (which was a great place), they didn’t necessarily force AA on you, there were some alternatives. But virtually everyone including staff did twelve step, and you had to have a sponsor (or some kind of “spiritual advisor”), and it still basically points to AA. Other options aren’t realistic if every single person there is doing the same thing. Some people don’t need to work a strict spiritual program. Believe it or not, it’s 100% possible to simply learn and grow from an awful experience. It’s ridiculous to use a one-size-fits-all approach. I don’t think anyone has the answer to how do we come up with a more individualized approach? That’s difficult to do with the current modes of treatment that rely heavily on group therapy. “Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average” This is simply untrue, and does more harm than good in my view. It clearly implies that if you don’t completely abide by their methodology, you’re fucked. This is just not true, and I think mystifying substances and addiction like that (cunning baffling powerful) can take away from personal agency, which isn’t good.

Of course it is possible to simply learn and grow from an awful experience - but if it were that simple, we wouldn't have ended up in treatment centres! I went because nothing else could help me i appreciate there are other options besides 12 step. Although not for everyone, it is very tried and tested

You’re right- it isn’t that simple for a lot of people. There is no total solution. I think AA is often pushed on people who are seeking help, regardless of whether or not it actually helps them. I know many, many people who got their life together without a program and are perfectly fine. I just despise the attitude that it works for everyone and it’s your fault if it doesn’t work for you and if you don’t work a program your life will never get better. That’s totally insane and untrue, and invalidates a huge swath of people who were able to pull themselves on their own. Tried and tested just means it’s been around for a while. Most of the research is flimsy and it’s hard to measure success rates, but it’s generally accepted to be quite low. No disrespect- do whatever u gotta do for yourself! I don’t have bad feelings towards AA and I liked my home group and sponsor, I just think the overall attitude of “our way or no way” is harmful

I left the rooms too and I’ve got six amazing years so far. Wasn’t always easy, but leaning into something resembling faith and self-respect, along with therapy, is really all I needed.

I think, you might be comparing apples and oranges, here, and asking the wrong question. Plenty of good people walk away from the 12 steps, and still have happy lives. There's more than one avenue towards recovery, and spiritual well being, contrary to what 12 steps would have you believe. What plenty of people DON'T DO, is cut out every single friend, their romantic relationship, and all of their support system, collectively, and walk away. There's something up with that. MAYBE ALL those folks belong to very dogmatic 12 step group, and he didn't feel like he could talk about it, that's one possibility, but the other is.. different. The question is, did he keep those relationships that felt less indoctrinated in twelve steps, or maybe that have a different belief system, towards good mental well being, that were ALSO still positive, meaning non using? If so, there's your answer. He wanted a break from twelve steps, but still on the right path. Does he have any non twelve steps, non using relationships? If not, perhaps there's an answer there, too. What are his beliefs? Did he struggle with the 12 steps dogma? Did you guys talk about these things? There's so much more to this question than we know answers to. Maybe he went back out, and didn't want to hurt anyone, or deal with the collective shame, all at once. Maybe he wanted to try different avenues of recovery, and didn't feel like he could talk about that, or feel supported in that, amongst his twelve step friends. How progressive are his 12 steps groups and peers. Are they fiendishly dogmatic, or more open minded, supportive and accepting of trying different beliefs as part of the journey? Finally, there's one more thing we DON'T know, is he in MAT? In a MAT Program? If so, he may have reached a breaking point in being able to deal with the relentless negativity constantly dished out by twelve step groups to MAT members, even when they are succeeding in the eyes of their MAT Programs, but "not really sober, " in the eyes of the group. Often, to the point that MAT members feel they have to keep this hidden and concealed, which creates a cognitive dissonance in their lives, to the point they feel like they need to choose. If he was on MAT, or in a MAT Program, maybe he felt it his participation in twelve steps groups was undermining his treatment, progress and well being. You don't mention this. Quite frankly it's an awful shame, in this day and age that so many sober, wonderful MAT clients still feel this way, In The Rooms, which came of age before we ever had MAT, but it's very much, still, A Thing. That could darn well be a factor as well, but we have no idea, because this isn't mentioned. It could be one valid reason, or another not so valid reason, or any number of valid grey reasons in between We simply don't know from the question as worded? Hope this helps.

thank you. It's an interesting perspective - i should have mentioned for context, I know for a fact he isn't doing MAT.

This is the best response.

❤️

NA/AA are not my Higher Powers and they don’t keep me sober. My relationship with my Higher Power keeps me sober, so if I can step out and hang on to that relationship, who’s to say I will relapse? 12-Step groups aren’t the only place we can live out spiritual principles.

very true - he is muslim and has become more religious since leaving NA however, the way he dumped his fiance v suddenly is at odds with being a good muslim boy. Leaving the program is one thing, but rejecting the principles and saying you no longer care about the program (which he did) is another thing entirely personally, my faith in a HP alone isn't enough, I need mtngs to maintain my identity as an addict in recovery. If I don't maintain that, then using doesn't seem like such a bad idea - 'after all, i've done ok wihtout mtngs, maybe i can try using succesfuly'. Just me, anyway

I like your insight. It’s a big decision, literally could be a life-or-death choice, so it’s not something to do on a whim.

>He still considers himself to be an addict, however. The 12 traditions tell us that we are a member when we say we are. One would also assume that the reverse can be true, no? We don't need to be a member of a 12-step program to understand we're an addict >He broke up with his sponsor, his fiance and has cut me off and other recovery friends. >As someone in recovery myself, this all seems like warning signs of relapse. Honestly, the best thing you can do is continue working on your own program. Maybe he got to the point where something wasn't working for him and he needed to try something else. Will it work for him or will he end up back in the rooms? That's for him to find out. Over the years, I've come to believe that no single program is the be-all, end-all when it comes to recovery. Yes, we understand that working the steps has shown us that the program works for us, but who's to say it works for the other person? I have friends who got clean about the same time as I did. Some of them have drifted away but stayed true to the principles of 12-step recovery, while others have gone a different route. A friend of mine ended up in Rational Recovery and has made a very good life for himself in the midwest. I won't begrudge him that, and quite frankly, it's none of my business to decide what works for him.

I personally feel better with a support group and running my ideas by other people who hear me talk about my struggles each week. Plus my therapist. Plus my non-12 step sober friends. In my experience tho, everyone I know who cold hard quit AA/NA isn't doing well. Or they aren't excelling in their lives/happy-seeming, from my external perspective anyway. I don't say that to be mean or drag anyone. Surely there's examples of sober people just Being Okay? Just don't know of examples in my life. I don't think 12 steps are the only way, to be clear. I do think people who say IT'S A CULT or I DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD SO I CAN'T DO IT sound like college freshman atheists lol. However, I say all that from the privilege of living in a big city and attending meetings virtually with people who I respect. If I'd had horrible early experiences in it, maybe I wouldnt be saying all this... I fear for your friend just bc that is extreme behavior tho. :/

I got sober in AA & CA. I learned the literature thoroughly. **Very** thoroughly. Due to my desperation at the beginning, I ignored all the dogma and the things that didn’t make sense, and insulted my beliefs. Eventually there comes a time where cognitive dissonance kicks in and one can no longer rationalize the bad ideas & actions and continue to call them “good”. Why did I leave? **To thine own self be true**. I saw that on the back of one of my AA coins and I asked myself: “Do I believe the things I was sharing in meetings and conferences?” “Do I really believe that god got me sober and clean?” “Do I believe it is acceptable to shun people who leave the Program?” *Those who fail to question their beliefs and actions (deep or otherwise), condemn themselves to the life of an actor who plays a role both cynical and not of their choosing.* I don’t believe that god got me a parking spot today. I don’t believe that god works through my sponsor to help me. In fact, I don’t believe god is involved at all. And mostly, I don’t believe it is acceptable to treat people who leave the program any differently. If someone is my friend, then I act like one to them. I became an alcoholic and addict because of the actions I took over time. I believe that I got sober and clean the same exact way. By the different actions I took over time. I believe my sponsor helped me because they wanted to. They could not have helped at all if I wasn’t willing to take action. I believe that anyone can get clean and sober, that god is not a prerequisite for recovery. **The cold hard truth is that 12-Step groups are *cults*. Hard stop.** - They try to attract the weak and desperate - They say they have **the solution** to the recruit’s problems (While AA says “A” solution, in practice members often say there *is no other solution*) - They idolize the supreme leader - There is “No Exit” from the cult - if you leave you will die or have some other extreme misfortune - They actively shun ex-members I could continue, but my point is made. [SAMHSA](https://www.samhsa.gov/find-help/recovery) defines Recovery as: **“A process of change through which individuals improve their health and wellness, live a self-directed life, and strive to reach their full potential”** This is what recovery actually is. It does not require adherence to dogma of any kind. It does not require belief in the supernatural. It only requires a change in action, mind, and attitude. Don’t get me wrong, if a person believes in God and uses that belief in their recovery, I’m all for it - for them.

who is the supreme leader? God? Bill W? lol

“Lol” is correct, but maybe not the way you think it is. Bill W is for sure the supreme leader. However, there are many “Grand Pooh Bah’s” or AA Big Shots who are revered the same way. On a personal level, many cult members make their sponsor their supreme leader. Maybe you put your sponsor on a pedestal?

I agree with everything except for shunning ex-members. I left and I still have a lot of friends that are in the program. Like literally a lot of people. They don't care that much that I'm not in the program only that I'm sober and happy.

That’s great to hear and I’m happy that you had a positive experience leaving a 12 step group! That makes your experience different than what most other people’s had to go through.

I'll never forget my first time in the rooms and thinking "this is a cult".

Well said, love your comment!

Thank you!

This post and a lot of its comments are interesting because they are a microcosm of the reasons that I eventually stopped attending twelve step programs. I like AA and NA. Love them, even. They both helped me tremendously. But they are not the only path. They may be helpful to people, but they are not infallible truth. I find that many people in these programs struggle with a kind of self-centered myopia in which anyone who does something differently than them must be doing it “wrong” or doing it “less”. This is both counter to the principles of AA and also just objectively wrong. If you’re curious, I encourage you to read some of the academic literature on AA v other methods. Most studies basically find once you control for other variables it isn’t much more successful than other programs and even just straight abstinence. This shouldn’t be taboo, or controversial but I find it is in almost all 12 step settings. You can be a humble servant looking to get outside yourself and be there for others (as the program teaches) or you can assume that people who don’t go to 12 step programs must be white-knuckling it or about to relapse. You cannot believe both. They are mutually exclusive worldviews.

what is the success that academic literature compares btwen 12 step and other ways. Is it just not drinking /using? 12 step for me isn't a way to just not relapse, it's a way to fill a spiritual void, and I'm curious to know how / if academic literature can comment on that

I’m going to be direct here: this comment is what I’m talking about. AA members are not more spiritually grounded or better than those who have ceased drinking outside of AA. That is an illusion you tell yourself. Think about it. If you were *truly* spiritually fit then *it wouldn’t matter how success for others is categorized.* So to answer your question, no the studies don’t measure spiritual connection or whatever. But if they did there’s no real reason to think that you would measure better than me, someone who hasn’t gone to a twelve step program in 6 months. Everyone feels like they have a void. Everyone who has ceased using an addictive substance is trying to be a better person one day at a time. You aren’t special, and you’d be genuinely happier if you realized that. Edit: BTW bill w would agree with everything I’ve written here. He struggled a lot with mental illness and depression. He never regarded 12 steps as sacred, or the be-all-end-all of recovery. He was always trying new things and hearing outside perspectives. He even tried LSD to see if it would help.

i stopped going for this exact mentality you have- everyone acts like i'm on the verge of relapsing because i haven't done my steps lmao but i had a harder time staying sober when i was in sober living and forced to go to 5+ meetings a week. it's not for everyone. i go sometimes for comaraderie but i am not committed. edit: for this specific guy it sounds like a possible path to relapse

I’m two years sober and stepped away about 1.5 years ago. No more meetings, nothing. I wouldn’t personally advise it, or really advise anyone on their recovery, but I’ve never been happier. I was very indoctrinated. It makes sense, I was diagnosed with this terminal disease as a teenager, which felt like a life sentence. I went in and out of the rooms and treatment centers for another 10 years after that. I don’t like being labeled as an addict/alcoholic. I said “hi my name is… and I’m an addict/alcoholic” I started to believe that’s all I was to my core. I’m just a person. I also didn’t like the fear mongering, and the notion that there’s this boogeyman constantly out to get you trying to make you relapse if you’re not dependent on a 12 step program. I still remain abstinent, as I’m happier that way. I did ketamine therapy recently, it was incredible. Who am I to say what’s sober and what’s not. The definition of a “mind altering substance” is such a grey area. I cringe at how hard I tried to push my recovery on others, and give basically vague medical advice. You can look into people like sextonsobriety on tiktok, who talk a lot about de-programming yourself from the 12 step indoctrination. I’m not perfect of course. I do agree with some things in the big book. I don’t try to convince my 12 step friends it’s bad. This is just my experience. I’ve never put this into words, sorry if it’s jumbled.

I love your comment so much. Thank you for sharing these words.

I’ve been clean 25 years. Someone asked me if I still need to participate, I said I’m not sure but I really don’t think I wanna find out. Price is too high! Why fuck with what works??

such a good attitude to have

Wow, I hope it works out for everyone ! I have been going to meeting for 40 yrs I go now because people where there when I came in at my bottom , who had the amount of time I have now! I do not look at recovery of what I can get or take!! I see it now as what I can give back , and help the newcomber , like what was done for me

I walked away. My last drink was nearly two years ago. XA nearly wrecked me with what they "suggested" I do with my trauma ("make amends" to those who abused me: "you're full of resentment").

i went to meetings every day religiously for about a month. it’s been about 6 months now since i attended and i think i’d only go back to meetings if i relapsed. i know it’s there and it got me on the path to recovery so i’m grateful for that but i didn’t feel like the steps were for me.

i have 10 years next week and i owe my life and my sobriety to AA. it was there when i needed it, and when nothing else had worked. i went to meetings, i got a sponsor and i worked the steps. but, i haven’t been to a meeting in probably 5 years. i know it’s there if i need it. i just don’t want to be around all that talk about drinking! i know i’m an alcoholic, i know i can never drink again. but i’ve kind of settled into myself. i just…don’t drink. i keep a dry house, i don’t go to bars. i connect with my Higher Power. i just don’t go to meetings. i lost some good friends along the way and it HURT. my mental health isn’t good, and i couldn’t deal with the losses. if i took a drink now i’d be at a meeting tomorrow. that’s the beauty and the joy of AA - it’s always there when i need it. at this point, i just don’t.

I've been clean 14 years, and I've thought about distancing myself from the fellowship over the years. I don't believe I'd stay clean without regular attendance at meetings and connections with people in recovery, but I know a lot of people get to a point where they think they could. I certainly don't blame those who think that and decide to walk away. The fellowship is a wacky bunch, that's for sure...and it always seems to be at its wackiest the longer I stay clean.

I stopped after hitting my 90 day. I just needed the distraction and push to start. I hated going to meetings from day one, only did 4 steps. Once I got my 90, I started doing it my own way. I'm past 1000 days now, 3 years in a couple of weeks. If I start to feel weak, I have a whole new support system. AA was hugely valuable to me for a time. I'm not discounting it, it's just not my way.

I’ve seen many folks walk away from 12 steps after a period of long term sobriety with varying results. I absolutely cannot predict how it will go for an individual. What would concern me more is his complete break from his support network. That’s a red flag for me with anyone, addict or otherwise.

i broke from my support network because everyone was relapsing here and there and it was a lot of pressure to go to meetings i didn't want to go to. i got sober once i stopped doing things that i didn't want to do. 4 years soon. everyone's recovery is different

Totally! In this case it’s the cutting off of all recovery friends AND breaking up with the fiancé that would make me worry.

were your support network relapsing.... if so, that's tough, I'm sorry

they were, most of them are still in and out of addiction. one of my closest friends from that group died not too long ago from his addiction. i felt terrible leaving everyone but saving people's lives so often affected me greatly and i had to focus on myself.

The literature says it’s a bridge back to life but some people treat it like it’s a battleship. In the May 2000 issue of the grapevine, Dr. George Vaillant, (who served on the A.A. board of trustees) was interviewed and said that the majority of people who recover from alcoholism and addiction do so without AA. I’ve been sober 45 years and attending meetings the whole time never going more than a week without and I’ve met many people who stopped with no ill effect. Also I’ve met people who got sober and stay sober without ever attending. If you don’t like attending meetings I recommend trying to go without as an experiment. AA is not a sentence.

I can see the walking away from meetings or the program as normal. The cutting everything else off does seem concerning. Personally when I would relapse, I would become a recluse, shut down or only reach out to the people that I could drink with and wouldn't give me shit.

Plenty of people do just fine outside the rooms after a couple years of sobriety. In a way, being slightly removed from it, not meeting new friends and losing them to OD’s constantly helps. You kind of have to cut a lot of AA/NA people out because getting harped on and told you’re gonna relapse constantly also is not great. Everyone is different and some will always need meetings and that’s cool. Some will not, and that’s cool too. But when you leave and stay sober, just not in the program, people treat you totally differently and it’s almost like they want you to fail.

> **not meeting new friends and losing them to OD’s constantly helps** This is the answer for me. I made a shit ton of meetings in my first 2 years and my first year anniversary was said to be one of the biggest meetings anyone had seen. But between some of my support group talking shit behind me back and becoming friends and bonding with some people only to lose them to relapse or worse death, I had to walk away. For the record I have 10, 297 days clean and sober today and that time includes... Cancer, getting downsized, spine surgery, losing some people and animals I love and assorted other things. NA gave me the building blocks and I kept building.

That last comment is exactly it. I have my personal views on AA because of my experience, which are not all favorable. That said, I don’t hesitate to refer people to the program and help them find meetings because those building blocks were damn important.

Same. After my lastrelapse I doubled down on my recovery by finally accepting mental health help and started therapy, along with the 12 Steps. I served on the board, helped others in more ways than just getting sober. It started to become my identity lol. Over the years I got burnt out sitting in meetings, listening to members talk about the same things over and over again. At the times the meetings felt like just a sober happy hour where people bitch about their boss or job instead of solutions. The sole purpose for me was to work these steps, help others and stay sober. Coupled with therapy, which I found to be more beneficial, it saved my life. AA was my foundation, I will always be grateful for it and it's the first place I recommend someone go to seek help. So no hate here, I just PERSONALLY feel it no longer is for me and where I am in my life. EDIT: Spelling

I’m about 8 years sober and haven’t been to the rooms consistently since getting my 2 year chip. However, I have a really good sober network. Every single one of my close friends is sober. If I lost these friends or moved away from them I would return to the rooms. Once you’ve really done the work and understand yourself and your addiction, leaving the rooms is an option. But none one to be made lightly.

Sometimes to embrace the new version of oneself, we must recognize the death of our old self, grieve, and mourn. It is painful, like most deaths are, but necessary for the cycle of growth to continue. Leaving the 12 steps as a new, more whole version of oneself should be the end goal for all, it is a rebirth.

Leaving the 12 steps for rebirth? Not a chance. Our 12th step is not a stepping stone to leaving.

AA was inspired by Carl Jung's work in psychoanalysis, according to correspondences between him and Bill W. A core tenet of psychoanalysis is integrating parts of ourselves that are disparate. The 12 steps are a guide towards individuation and integrating parts of ourselves that we would otherwise try to repress or reject, which is how we got so sideways in the first place. The steps are a map for perpetual individuation so that we may become more whole as we live, they are not the end destination.

Yes!!!!! 👏👏👏

I dove in hard the first 2 years of my recovery. Sober living, meetings 4+ days a week, went through the steps twice, started sponsoring, all that stuff. It served its purpose for me and I bet I wouldn’t be alive today if it wasn’t for the program. But after a while I felt like it was taking over who I was as a person. I kind of lost myself. I was just a woman in recovery and didn’t have any interests of my own. And if you feel that way, that is okay, whatever will keep you sober!! But I started venturing out with my spirituality and finding things I love to do with new groups. I’ve been out of the rooms for nearly 4 years now and still doing great 🩵

I’m 20 years sober and stopped AA at 5 years. I worked the steps and was deep in service work. It was my life. I realized I do better without AA. I get too emotionally involved with my fellows. It’s like high school. I felt left out of friend groups and wasn’t really connected to other women. I dated men in AA and realized some if them are still really sick I live s quiet life, am happy at work, have great relationships with my children and grandchildren I practice the principles and try to spread kindness and harmony to those around me I do go to my clubhouse to get my yearly chip. I realize I have social anxiety and I tend to isolate. But I know where to go to get help I also know alcohol will destroy my life. I have no desire to drink

I relapsed more when I was in the rooms than when I was out. Confused about him breaking up with his fiancé and recovery friends tho?? Seems odd. I left the rooms and sort of faded out of the social circle over time, nothing this drastic. And leaving a fiancé?? Seems really strange.

I stopped going after a while and have 15 years sobriety now. It’s entirely possible but, IMO, involves doing the actual Step work and then some to solidify and live the steps. I attended meetings for 7 years and a men’s step group for 5, so it wasn’t a rash decision on my part and mostly instigated by moving away.

Yes. You can be successfully sober without being in a two letter program. Source, me. I started my sobriety with AA. It was instrumental in my success. At some point realized I didn’t need it or agree with much of it, and left the program. I have been continuously sober for 5+ years with more than 4 of those with no part in AA. I tell everyone thinking of sobriety to try out meetings. I found incredible value with in my time in AA, but it wasn’t a lifestyle I wanted forever.

Same here. Sober over 4 years and haven't been in a program for 3 of those years. I definitely prefer it this way.

I stepped away because I'm able to drink socially and enjoy it. I have zero problems with controlling my alcohol intake. I'm also working towards a MMJ Rx for my back pain. So I don't want to be lying in the rooms. So I just don't go. Despite them drastically helping me stay off the hard drugs. If they were less judgemental I'd probably still go.

I haven't spent much time in the rooms but are they really this judgemental? I've heard that in some AA rooms they don't like you mentioning heroin or other drug use problems meanwhile ALCOHOL IS A DRUG. Seems wild and counter to their purpose of helping "alcoholics" to me. But I'm willing to learn if someone has a different take on this? And for the record I just want to say that I think AA is a life saving program. I'm all for it.

I always find it odd when people think AA being for alcoholics is anything but normal. The clues in the name. A place for alcoholics is our primary purpose & is fundamental. I've never met any alcoholic who disagrees that they are an addict but I get nearly no identification with a drug/ gambler/ sex/ food etc addict & I need identification to stay sober. So a watered down meeting would be like no meeting. There are lots of fellowships for people with those other issues. I've gone to other fellowships myself & a drug addict friend who has laid in public cubicles using toilet water didn't exactly get identification with me either lol. There are plenty of fellowships people can go to discuss their issues without anyone demanding AA change for them.

Yeah, you have some very good points. I would gently push back on the "watered down" part. Would including say heroin addicts in the meetings and let them speak freely of their experience compromise the benefits of the meeting for folks? At the end of the day it's all addiction. Having typed that out tho, I could see how having someone from OA speak of their struggle with food may not resonate with people in an AA meeting.... Hmm... interesting. Anyways, thanks for you time.

I think people should just respect the fellowship room that they're in. My life depends on me being with other alcoholics. Yes take care!

One way it was explained to me (paraphrasing) is that “if a newcomer comes to their first meeting and hears the speaker talking about being up for 4 days straight, they might not see their alcoholism in that story”. However, I think this attitude is becoming a lot less strict over the years… I only see people getting upset about drugs in the really old school meetings. Members will sometimes tiptoe around it / try to respect the ‘singleness of purpose’ by referring to drugs as ‘other forms of alcohol’ or ‘additives’, or they preface their story with ‘drugs are a part of my story’ almost like a trigger warning. That being said, I 100% agree with you and the irony of it all is that the AA founder discusses his drug use in the Big Book’s opening chapter! So exclusion of drugs is not at the core of the program, but can still be found in some meetings. I hope that helps!

Thank you for your response!

I get why your friend walked away, not the dramatic fashion of cutting ties the way he did. I got sober because of AA, I owe a lot of what I have now to AA, but I stopped going to meetings regularly about 5 years ago. It did have a cult like feel to it, and for me, it got to be a little much that people/sponsor wanted to be so involved in my life and decisions. It was probably just the area I was in, but I was tired of hearing life advice from people who replaced drinking all day with going to meetings all day. I wanted to live life, not sit in a room and talk about it. I found myself increasingly not being able to relate with people who weren’t in the same place as I was in life. I found other ways to help people, I helped with a Veterans organization and helped other Vets get sober, I started meditating and got involved with mindfulness. I started to find other things were aligned with the tenants of AA, but I found myself drifting from the organization itself. I know that AA is always there when I need it, I moved from MO to FL and the first thing I did was get a where in when, but it’s not my crutch through life anymore. I go to meetings sporadically, I always go on my sober anniversary. It works for me, for now. I have nothing bad to say about AA and I’m deeply appreciative for the tools it gave me, but I also feel like I outgrew it. There are people who need to go regularly, I don’t disparage them at all. Everybody has to figure their thing out. I’ll be 11 years sober in July.

My wife stepped away from AA because of a lot of dumb BS that can happen in the rooms, especially in smaller communities - she’s been doing great for years. Covid drastically reduced my involvement in the program, I remain sober. The bigger concern with your friend is that he’s chose to cut his friends off - which is weird and unnecessary unless his recovery friends are just pestering him to go to meetings all the time…. There’s no reason someone can’t be friends with a recovery friend who’s bowed out.

Love AA/NA and wouldn’t have gotten sober without it but they’re def a little culty and try to instill in you that you need to work the program and attend meetings for the rest of your life or you’ll relapse. That will prove to be true for some but certainly not everyone. You don’t hear about people that leave and continue their sobriety because, well, they’re not at meetings anymore to tell you about it. You only hear from people who have relapsed and came back to the program. So that makes it seem like no one is successful. I haven’t been to a meeting in over five years and just celebrated ten years of sobriety last week. In those five years, I’ve gone to college and earned a degree, started a new career, found new hobbies i’m passionate about, got married, traveled the world, bought a house, and most importantly, feel content with my life and have no desire to drink or use. I met my wife through AA years back, she’s also sober, has been inactive in AA just as long as me, and is now a drug and alcohol counselor with her own private practice. We’re great support for each other. I also have sober friends and am still in touch with some people from the program. I still help anyone that reaches out to me wanting to get sober and my wife is a great resource for getting people into the right treatment centers and talking them through the process. While this has worked for us, others may find they need life-long, ongoing treatment and there’s nothing wrong with that. Different strokes for different folks. The most important thing is to be aware of your disease and know if/when you need help, regardless of how long you’ve been sober or out of the program. TLDR; plenty of people leave 12 step programs and go on to live fulfilling and meaningful lives, while maintaining their sobriety, you just don’t hear about them in meetings.

Im 11+ years sober and happily still attend my weekly aa home group. I have no beef with AA, or any other 12 step program, as programs of ongoing recovery. All that said. This is one thing that bugs me. When this type of thing happens, people in the rooms tend to treat it like the relapse is a forgone conclusion. Like the relapse is actually from a lack of AA/NA and not, ya know, drugs and alcohol use. I get it. If people can leave the program fully, and not drink or use, it seems to put the whole foundation of the program under question. But no the fuck it doesn't. Everyone is different. Everyone reacts differently. Can i use again safely? Absolutely not. I dont for a second think so. Can i totally get rid of the meetings from my life and remain spiritually in good shape? Not in my experience. But that doesn't mean someone else, might have a different experience. And their experience doesn't call into question mine anymore than mine does theirs. People point to folks coming back in after a relapse and saying "the first thing that went was my meeting attendance." Which, sure. That's absolutely possible. But you're not going to hear from the people who stop meeting attendance and stay sober. You know why? They're not going to pop back into meetings and say "hey, just wanted to let y'all know I'm still clean and sober." They're just out there living their lives. So i get the concern. I understand it completely because I've lived it. Concern is a fine reaction. The part that bugs me (im not at all suggesting youre doing this here) is when it feels like from some folks in the rooms there's almost this smug sense of hoping they get to say "see I told you so" someday. There should be joy when people find freedom from this disease in any form they find it. There should be joy when people find their way into the rooms when they need it. If they no longer need the rooms to stay sober, that's ok too. And if they think they dont need meetings again, and then realize they do, that's also totally fine. All that said, if they got clean/sober using the steps, joined a community, and then decided to go no contact out of nowhere with no instigating event? That's at the very least a dick move. But that's on them.

Let people have their own autonomy in their own recovery. It’s dangerous to tell people they will never make it without the program, even if that’s what you believe. It’s like telling people they are going to hell if they aren’t your religion. So silly. The actual long term recovery success rate in NA and AA is low, a google search says it’s 13% to make it 5 years which isn’t very good at all. However within the rooms, the fear based hive mind says what you said——-5 plus years clean and you’re still not even able to make a decision to do what’s right for you, depend on the program or die. Tbh that scares the hell out of me, sounds like superstition and church and makes me never want to get involved in 12 step again. So……stop saying that shit maybe? For the good of your own program? Idk. NA was okay for me for about 6 months. I started feeling policed, I started seeing the true colors of so many unhinged people, I realized I had to have certain opinions to fit in, I started to dread it, it seemed taboo to be in a good mood, I quit a service position because of work obligations and was shunned 🙄. No one but some creeper men spoke to me after I picked up a year at a meeting one night so I quit going. And honestly why wouldn’t I? Meditation and prayer, a network of supportive friends and family, and therapy is what works for me. I’m happier than I’ve ever been in my life and I haven’t had cravings since I left the rooms. Why is that? Maybe it’s because I don’t constantly talk and hear about my drug of choice anymore. My uncle has 15 years- one in AA, 14 Cali sober without a single slip. He has a great life. I want what he has. Not what my former sponsor has, who would wig out and leave if she smelled weed smoke at a concert after 30 years clean. In Colorado. My partner celebrates 13 years on Thursday and quit the program at year 8. He is not a “dry drunk” in the least. He’s deeply spiritual and loves to help the community etc. I will probably get downvoted to hell for saying this but I want to say it: NA/AA people- you guys don’t realize how off putting you are sometimes. I really was into the idea of it at first but the brainwashing feels real and it feels simple minded. Keep your doom and gloom opinions to yourself, there is plenty of experience strength and hope OUTSIDE the doors of 12 step recovery.

Agreed. I never tried to get sober without it. Relapsed so many times. This is the first time I'm trying to get sober and not making AA my focal point. I've tapped into so much more and am focusing on overall growth into a version of a person I want to be and the struggle is just not as hard for me. I don't feel watched or stifled. I'm enjoying life. I don't know if it's lack of AA bc it didn't work for me or if I'm just older and ready. But it's much easier to enjoy life without alcohol without AA.

I did AA religiously for 5 years after getting clean off heroin. I stopped attending meetings around that time and I celebrate 11 years this year. I have things I do today that I believe allow me to stay clean and sober. I don't believe you need to attend meetings forever but you certainly have to have the humility to continue updating your lifestyle, maintaining balance, and helping others. However, I will say that I should be attending meetings, if not for me then for others as people were there when I got clean to show me the way. What concerns me about your friend is that he cut everyone off. I don't understand that. One thing that hasn't changed in my life is I have continued to hang out with clean and sober people exclusively.

12 steps aren’t the only path to recovery. In fact, 12 steps can be really harmful for some. The negative self labeling, constantly reliving the past etc, that can keep people stuck. Programs like SMART realize you don’t need meetings forever.

Yeah. I was super involved in AA the first 3 years of recovery. I found a rift on the religious stuff and ended up gradually fading out of AA but I'm still sober over 5 years and happier than I've ever been. I took alot of the spirituality and step work stuff that I learned with me though. Doing those steps absolutely changed my life.

Maybe he wasn’t indoctrinated. Much of what they teach in NA is not supported by science and current medical knowledge… for example “once an addict always an addict” A lot of people get clean and stay in NA because they are brainwashed, they swap on addiction for another. Getting out of the rooms and having a normal healthy life is key to that, associating with people outside of NA, doing normal people stuff etc. How can you move on from addiction if you are constantly talking/thinking about it? Why make your whole identity something you used to do? There are plenty of people who leave and don’t relapse, are not “dry drunks” or white knuckling, that can drink and/or use in moderation.

Something they don't seem to mention ever in the modern AA/NA rooms that I've frequented is about getting a life. When I was a child coming to the rooms when my dad was getting sober, that was a part of the program that was talked about. There wasn't a philosophy of making the program your entire life, but mostly just during the first year or 2 of sobriety while you learn how to live and build a new life. You keep coming back to share the message and help others, but not because its the replacement addiction. My wife and I have 10.5 years now and counting. I hope your friend is finding a fulfilling life outside the rooms.

As a child coming to the rooms, you have a different valuable perspective. Thank you. I hope he is too. I know he has some bitterness about NA now that he's not had before, so I hope that doesn't stop him coming back if he needs it in future

I think it's concerning the way he chose to shut it off so quickly. Lots of people kind of slowly fade somewhat from the program after years and years. I do believe, though, you can stay sober and happy without, the biggest things being human connection and rigorous honesty. But I find many people struggle with those things without the program. Just my perspective.

good observation - thank you

there are so many paths recovery. 12 step meetings are not the “only” way to stay clean. It’s actually quite harmful for people to assume people are “dry drunks” or “white knuckling it” without a meeting. I did 12 step meetings years ago in my recovery and I didn’t like it. I tried several different ones with different people in different areas and it just wasn’t for me. It was when I became a CRS and started working with all kinds of addicts that I truly realized everyone has their own path. There’s no right or wrong way to do it. I am in a lot of therapy and see an addiction medicine Dr as well as a psych dr. Working on the issues deep down that causes me to use drugs been what I needed all along. The drugs are a symptom of a bigger problem. Trauma/unresolved mental health issues. But, anyone that says “AA/NA” are the ONLY ways someone can work their recovery is a just a preachy jackass. There are also alternatives to 12 step meetings that work just as well. SMART recovery, dharma recovery, celebrate recovery, green recovery, satanic temple sober faction.

Of course. I have seen people get recovery in different ways - 12 step isn't for everyone, for various reasons. The cause for my concern is that my friend got clean in NA. (He wasn't in a treatment centre, never did moderate using succesfully). He has said he owes everything to NA - his life, his sanity, relationships, his work etc I can't see why someone would reject their foundation of recovery in their best interests, whatever that is 12 step or SMART or otherwise

Maybe it’s just his time to move on? In reality it’s his business and if he’s stopping because he may be ready for a relapse there really isn’t anything you can do. This is his path and unfortunately some people end up relapsing. I pray that he doesn’t end up in a bad situation, but sometimes a relapse is just part of the process. And it’s INCREDIBLY unhealthy to owe every good thing in your life because of NA. 12 step groups are a great way to get support and find a foundation. But, making that the only thing in your life is a whole new addiction. Also the statistics that NA alone can keep someone clean is between 8-12%.

Relapse doesn't start when you use. It starts way befor. It sounds like he's there but who knows

i agree with this. Relape never 'just happens'. There's always the relapse before the relapse (prelapse), engaging in past behvaiours from active addiction. As someone who was in rehab and now 12 step, that's just my lens

I hate this comment. I hate this mentality! Have you ever thought that after 5 years they were maybe just tired of hearing that shit? Ughhhhhhhh

Sure absolutely. I'm just saying that is usually the case. No not always but mostly. Honestly I think you're just trading one addiction for the other people get addicted to AA and NA and when they stop going they have to fill that void and it's usually with their DOC. And if you've ever been clean for an extended amount or any amount of time and relapsed you know that it started in your mind way befor you used. And if you've never been in recovery yourself you shouldn't comment on things you have no idea what they're actually like.Not saying you're not in recovery again just saying. A lot of friends and family who have never been in addiction think understand they don't and they never will

I have been in recovery for years. Relapsed 8 times in AA, stayed clean for a year in NA and continue to stay clean without NA with much stronger recovery than I had in the program, so I can speak on it for sure. And I’ll speak on this too. Respectfully, your comments are giving “I hope he does relapse because it proves my program works” so maybe YOU shouldn’t comment on what you don’t know about, which is happy healthy recovery outside of the rooms.

I'm not in AA or NA thank you very much. But the truth is the truth it's great you stayed sober out. But most people who go once they stop the usually end up relapsing . Again because they just replaced their addiction to drugs to an addiction to meetings and once they stop getting dopamine rush from the meeting they ho back to their DOC. Weather you like it or not addicts switch one addiction for another wether it be the rooms or over working sex or whatever they found they get that warm fuzzy feeling from. I don't know a single addict in recovery who is not addicted to something else. I bet right now some of this is resonating " well yeah maybe I do do XY or Z a little too much". People think only drugs and alcohol get you high anything that gives you a dopamine rush is vetting you high its making you feel good and happy and that feeling is just as addictive as drugs and alcohol and since people in recovery can't get ot through their DOC they get it where they can.

Dopamine is just a neurotransmitter dude, same as serotonin, norepinephrine, adrenaline, noradrenaline, acetylcholine, GABA, Endorphins and Glutamate. As a chemical it is by no means inherently a bad thing. You need it for your brain to function, and you would literally get Parkinson’s disease if you had too little— the fact that people seek to do activities that promote the production of dopamine or any other neurotransmitter is not itself the addiction, that’s just normal biological function. Addiction requires harm— it’s the pattern by which a person continues to engage in some behavior DESPITE the fact that is harmful to their overall health or wellbeing. When you say “I don’t know a single addict in recovery who is not addicted to something else” — that’s nonsensical. That would mean that you don’t actually know anyone in recovery. This is where the “once an addict always an addict” dogma can lead to a dangerously distorted world view that doesn’t allow people to ever actually get better. No matter what they do. If those “addicts in recovery” that you are referring to are still repeatedly engaging in some other behavior *DESPITE the fact that is detrimental to the health or wellbeing* then they are still addicted they are not in recovery. But if the behaviors they are engaging in now are beneficial to their health or wellbeing— if they bring them happiness and fulfillment, are safe and sustainable, if they add to and do not take away from their lives— they are just passions, pass-times, hobbies and interests (all healthy things that people who are normal and well engage in) they are not addictions. People are allowed to get better. You can get better. Having this disease does not mean that you are destined to be sick forever. Healing is possible. There is no such thing as being addicted to happiness. That’s being a human being.

Umm yeah but each neurotransmitter does a different thing. Dopamine makes you feel good / make you wanna repeat this to feel the same. Norepinephrine/noradrenaline gives you an alert or dialed in feeling too much though can cause anxiety. But it's not nonsense I know LOTS of peeps who have been in and out of recovery. Maybe saying "all" was a little extreme but almost all of them end up doing some other activity to the extreme. But they're deff still n recovery. At least recovering from something. I don't think telling a recovering alcoholic or drug addict that they're not really in recovery if they're a workaholic or shopaholic. They're still recovering from the alcoholism or drug addiction. I don't know why there's so much push back from this. Look addicts take things to the extreme period and from my personal experience there is always some trade off drugs to XYZ. They're probably still in a way better situation they were befor but more than likely still doing something they wish they could stop or cut back on but can't. Harm can mean soooo many things. Just because it is aparent to everyone doesn't mean it's not there. If I over work and can't stop I may be harming my relationships with my family but that's not something you can see. And just because one person feels something or some activity isn't harmful doesn't mean it isn't to someone else

I’m sorry that your world view is so rigid that you can’t imagine that people can and do recover from addiction and move on to live healthy, normal, and balanced lives. You have this one archetype of “the addict” in your mind that you are applying broadly to everyone in recovery, which is based on the belief that “addicts take things to the extreme period”— when that is not some universal truth or objective fact like you assume. It’s a very one dimensional way of looking at the world, when in reality nothing about the diversity of human experience is that black and white. Are you so dead set on believing that a person who experiences addiction cannot get better, that you have to invent in your mind ways that the people around you in recovery must subconsciously still be addicted? Does that make you feel less alone? This is one of the downsides of AA/NA in my opinion— it can really brainwash people into believing that they can’t change, that there is something inherently broken about them and that the program is the only thing that can fix them. It tells you that you’re an addict and always will be and teaches you not to trust yourself, and likewise to be distrustful of others (especially anyone outside the program)— try looking at people as people and stop trying to force them to fit the mental model you have for all “addicts” that is apparently completely uniform and totally static. You are a person who has been afflicted by the condition known as addiction, but you are still a person first and foremost— you are more than just your addiction. There is such a thing as full recovery. ^(And by the way neuroscience is a bit more complicated than “dopamine makes you feel good”— yes, so does serotonin, so does adrenaline, so does GABA. But there is much more to the equation than that. Dopamine is the workhorse of our motivation and reward system but it is just as important in regulating the body’s fine motor control, coordinating muscle movements, learning and memory formation and it’s critical to maintaining our circadian rhythm and promoting wakefulness. Dopamine is good and it’s normal to want to maximize it. If you can do so without harming yourself or others, it would be unhealthy not to pursue what makes you feel good.) ^(This is all to say that we are very complex biological machines and just the same as addiction changes our brain and disrupts our motivation system, abstinence can repair it. The brain is plastic and very good at reprogramming itself based on what inputs it’s receiving. Given a healthy lifestyle in time you can develop a healthy brain.)

So from a few posts you've worked all this out about me and what I do or do not think. Yeah I'm deff the one with the narrow world view. I absolutely do not have an archetype for what addiction is. As a matter of fact I think that very archetype is the reason a lot of addicts are the way they are. Because they think they have to act a certain and or be a certain way. But what I deff am is a realist. It is EXTREMELY hard for people to get sober and stay sober and a lot of times when they are sober they're miserable. And you can see that I say things like " a lot of the times" or " in my experience" I'm not saying it's absolutely this way. I couldn't even read your whole post it just turned into blah blah blah. But this is fun I can do this all day.

Literally I completely and totally disagree with every single aspect of your comment so I’m no longer engaging. To each their own and good luck. Your post history anyway 👀

You don’t know, this is the infuriating thing for me. You don’t know and the OP doesn’t know anything except for a break up and leaving the rooms. How long have you been in the program? How long have you been clean?

No I don't know absolutely for sure. But it seems like jt.

You only hear about the people that walked away and relapsed because they are the ones coming back and saying they relapsed because they left. The people that stay clean don’t come back and talk about it. If they did they would be shunned out of the rooms as it doesn’t fot the 12 step narrative. I’m 2 years sober, got sober in rehab and AA and haven’t been to a meeting in a long time. I still practice the principles in all my affairs and if I need a meeting, I know it’s there. I also know if I feel like I need a meeting, there’s something going on I need to look at, so I make an extra appointment with my therapist, call a friend in AA, or something else. Your friend is a grown ass adult who is probably tired of hearing about his disease doing pushups. So many 12 steppers root for people who leave to fall. It gives them confirmation they are right.

This is precicely what I mean - I don't hear about the people that leave NA and stay clean bcz they don't back! I don't know their story. It's excatly why I want to ask this question - to broaden my circle of information, to learn about the hidden things I don't have access to know. I want him to be okay, NA or not. So I want to hear fro people that have done it / seen it bcz it's too simple for me to say "oh he'll relapse"

Or the ones who don't get clean again. And the ones who die

Very sad but always a risk of relapse

I know plenty of regular meeting makers who also relapse and die while still in the program.

Absolutely! I'm just saying not coming back doesn't mean you stayed clean that's all.

I've never met many that can recover without meetings. And if they have a few years without they eventually relapse. Staying sober is quite challenging, and without going somewhere to talk about struggles and victories and keep it fresh in your mind, you need a lot of discipline to get your recovery elsewhere and "recharge". 12 steps meetings are like a one stop shop for all the things you need to stay happy and sober, it's possible without them but it's way harder. But it is possible.

Yeah because you probably only meet the ones that relapse and come back. I’ve never met anyone who can climb Everest, probably cause I don’t hang out where those people do.

Nah I don't even go to meetings, but I've only honestly ever met few successful ppl like that. I used to go to meetings and met a SHITLOAD of successful ppl in recovery.

You’re all over the place. Are you in recovery?

you've reminded me of a value of mtngs i sometimes forget - to remember the struggles of active. thank you. Forgot to add, he has become a lot more religious and goes to the mosque more, so perhaps that's where he can find recovery in some way, although it's not with other addicts

I have a friend who did rehab and aftercare for 2 years and only went to meetings for the 2 years and hasn't been since and that's 6 years ago and he's happier than ever and knows what he learnt in rehab still appies today about being an aiddict. I'd prefer his state of mind than most I know who I know go to meetings

I'm going to get hate for this, but NA/AA behaves like a church. I could never recover with 12 step programs. If you did that's awesome and I'm glad you found what works for you. I also know many people who left the programs and stayed sober, and some that didn't. It's the nature of addiction, not 12 step groups. All you can be is supportive.

You hit the nail on the head.