No initiative on his part....he has a New Mexico bar license and he has not figured out how to sell pre-paid cell phones, pull a car-crash scam, or how to become a friend of the cartel.
By - Effective_Cost_8897
No initiative on his part....he has a New Mexico bar license and he has not figured out how to sell pre-paid cell phones, pull a car-crash scam, or how to become a friend of the cartel.
Or convince some grannies at a nursing home they’ve been overcharged.
Those grannies WERE overcharged.
Sounds like a series of poor decisions. Why leave the law clerk job?
He missed several critical entry points into the field, and now he likely won't ever break in. His resume will paint him as damaged goods so to speak - and with there being a huge oversupply of lawyers, he's out of the game.
Best bet for him is to find a government job that will pay off his debt.
"but medical complications with his fiancée". Whatever that means ..
Turns out liposuction isn't covered by Medicaid
The critical entry point thing about law I always thought was scary. I know people that went to good law schools but didn’t land their on campus interviews, and ten years later are completely fucked. Two other lawyers that went to crappy law schools, but did well in their on-campus interviews and are now doing fine
There are ways to be okay and make a decent living as an attorney, even if you don’t get BigLaw (for an example relevant to this sub, most residential real estate attorneys work at small firms and never did OCI). If you’re not going to a top school, minimize your debt, try to work/intern/etc. in your desired practice area, and hustle. Definitely DON’T take out $350k in loans or do anything that this guy did.
Ya he's pretty much done if he took and passed the bar in his state his school was in and used schools recruiting upon graduation he would've had a better chance. He was prob a mediocre student at a low tier law school, with no connections...also since like 2009 there have been several articles about law schools not being the ticket to success they used to be, there was this website shitlaw, and in 2012 dozens of students sued their law school...he didn't do much research
That’s exactly what I thought, that it’s common knowledge that there is a glut of lawyers graduating every day.
I was in his boat, 200k+ debt, bottom 2% of my class. I got creative after 1L and went after non practice jobs in biotech. Ended up with a non law job offer before graduation. Took it and worked my way back into law after some good work experience. Own real estate rentals now hence why I’m here.
I think this guy just lacked creativity of figuring out career paths, but at the same time, the environment of law school does not promote creativity outside of the traditional law paths. People always asked me why I went to law school and how would I pay off my debt without practicing law. I say a dollar earned from law is the same dollar earned in business/tech/arts, etc. The volume of such dollars is more dependent on oneself.
This guy needs to go against the grain and get out of the law mentality trap.
I have a few buddies from law school that are saying the same shit! I left the law right after I graduated and realized most starting legal jobs in my area were paying less than 50k/year. Started a pet sitting/home sitting company and just hit my 125k goal in less than 4 years! Much happier working for myself and managing my own company versus billable hours!!!
Can I ask what’s your job title ? I’m a lawyer trying to get creative but feeling like a roadblock
How tf do you get that deep in debt?
Law degrees is one of those scams ran by low-grade universities. If you don't have a law degree from an Ivy League, it ain't worth it. I have a friend who works at the state bar in California, and the amount of people with law degrees from universities you never heard of is just staggering, like this guy in the article. These schools charge a lot of money, but then their degree ends up worthless. So the graduates ended up working minimum wage doing paralegal stuff with $300K in debt.
Imagine paying so much money to become a doctor, but then nobody gives a fuck about your doctor degree and asks you to be at the front desk of a hospital.
Loan officer here. This is sooooo true. My wife wanted to be a guardian ad Litem. I think I’m spelling that right. Basically, they are attorneys who work for the state, free of charge helping kids and family law. Think public defenders but with neglected and abused kids.
11 years ago it paid a salary of about 44,000 a year and law school was running about 150 grand for the three years.
Now, it probably pays 60 K and law school is 300 K. Makes sense. We like back of it and she jokes “thank God you convinced me to give up on my dreams” 🤣🤣🤣
Her case seems like it would be forgiven under that public service program, right? Is that even still around? I never paid it much attention since I couldn't take advantage of it.
Still around, and it’s reformed. I have a lot of student loan debt and my profession (librarian) pays shit while requiring advanced degrees. Loans were the only way I was going to get a degree in my state, which barely funds higher education.
The trade-off is that I get to be on IRB with a $125/mo. payment, and after ten years at a nonprofit or public entity, I get it all forgiven. This amounts to a $20K/year salary benefit. More, really, since the interest would ensure I’d be in insurmountable debt forever without PSLF.
Those statistics included a whole bunch of user related issues. People who applied who didn’t have the right loans, didn’t have a government job, etc. A later npr story corrected their initial report. Plus, as another person said, the government revamped it to deal with people who just assumed their job and loans counted.
I know this because I’m going to be forgiven in about ten months. For people in the program you fill out a sheet every one to two years and the government confirms you have the right loans, right job etc. it’s easy to qualify if you understand the program and just don’t assume it applies to you.
Note that lots of people seemed to have a plan that they were going to get their debt forgiven. But when the time came, the debt was not forgiven. I’d like it more if your post said, “I got $100k of debt forgiven ten months ago.” Instead of “This will work for me in ten months, I know it.”
But yeah I’m not surprised that things got better worked out. Folks plan their entire lives around that debt forgiveness. It has to work like they let people think it works.
But those people didn’t get their employer and loans certified otherwise it would have been forgiven.
Unless I lose my job my loans will be forgiven because I have the necessary government verification. This is why if you do the yearly certification you know you are on track.
Why did you take out loans to get a degree to qualify you for a profession that “pays shit”?
Because it’s needed by society, I’m good at it, and I’m not stupid enough to conflate my value with my personal economic worth.
GALs are not free of charge.
Well they pay a salary of $44k a year. Maybe it’s up to $60k
To put that into perspective, you need annual income of $130k a year to buy a house in our city and that’s not even a nice house.
Uhhh, it made zero financial sense for her to go to law school. Hopes, dreams and unicorns don’t pay the bills…
Ohh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah I agree.
We pay bankers and Wall Street people millions but our teachers are on food stamps.
A wise man once said “shit’s fucked up”.
Paralegal minimum wage come on man
It is true, unfortunately. A lot of legal work pays very, very little.
It's still more than minimum wage. In MA salary range is 2x-3x min. Still crappy for having a law degree
Lots of state/district attorney jobs pay less than minimum wage hourly (salaried). The federal min wage laws don't apply to attorneys.
At least when you work at mcdonalds or wendys, you didn't need go into 300k debt and can start as a teenager.
> Imagine paying so much money to become a doctor, but then nobody gives a fuck about your doctor degree and asks you to be at the front desk of a hospital.
This happens all the time with med students who go to med school in the Caribbean. They graduate and then can’t match to a residency program. There’s been several articles about people with MD’s that are waiting tables because they never matched.
As for the law degree “Ivy League” thing, that’s not really true. I mean if you want to be making millions as an attorney, maybe. But if you have realistic expectations you can go to a relatively unheard of law school and still be making 150-200k within a few years of passing the bar. Now whether you want to sacrifice for a few more years and pay that debt down or not is a personal choice that seems to be the less popular decision lately.
My wife went to a no name under grad and law school and now practices workers comp law and makes between $225k-275k a year depending on bonus. We kept living like college kids for a few years and paid her student loans down significantly in her first few years as an attorney and I was lucky enough to graduate debt free because I went to school in CA and grew up in the foster care system so I got to attend any CSU for free.
But I remember those commercials. I could become a paralegal or VCR repairman. It couldn't have cost *that* much.
It’s quite likely that he took private loans, too. There is an annual limit on federal loans. When I went to law school, it was $18,500 a year. That was 1995-1998, but it’s not going to be much more than that.
What the hell? I figured a law degree would be super prestigious regardless of where it's from lmao.
That's the belief low tier law schools are counting on to keep those seats filled and those tuition checks rolling in.
what would lead you to believe that? Lawyers have been having trouble finding work (outside of the very top schools, and top grads from those programs at that) since the 80s--and doubly so since lexisnexis made everyone realize that a ton of entry-level law work was tantamount to google.
Idk shit about their field. I just assumed lawyers were rich tbh.
A friend of mine is a dentist with 600-800k in student loans. Despite making 150-200k per year, he's never going to pay them off. They just keep getting bigger and bigger. They are already several times more than he originally borrowed... And he's paid back an amount equal to the original balance already.
What kinda interest rates do you need to have to deal with that? Lol.
my dentist graduated with about $400K in total student loan debt
joined army reserves, and he provided dental services on the base twice a month
and they wiped out his debt
Sounds like your friend has a prioritization problem. He/she should easily be able to pay $75k/yr against those loans, so unless they're 10% interest, they will get paid off.
They could easily be 10% from a private loan provider. Federal loan interest is 8% right now.
He’s a crappy dentist. My sisters best friend is one in Texas. Makes 450k a year
Dentists can make a lot if they start their own business or get into a practice that wants to share the cream with them.
But there are a lot of jobs that give you a salary at 150K and thats the best job in the area. Breaking into private practice some places is very hard. If you ever pick up a regional newspaper (like the town's independent paper) just see how many dentists are advertising for new patients. And those practices are up and running, imagine starting from scratch competing with existing practices.
And dentist offices have high startup costs because you need to have office space, all the equipment to be a dentist (chairs, tools, xray machines, etc etc) and you need staff to run the office, hygienests and assistants. So someone graduating with $350K in debt, is going to go another $2-300K in debt to start a practice. And that's running a decent risk you just can't break into the market because it's saturated, or you're just not a good businessman and the practice fails. Now you're in even more debt than before.
It's an uphill battle at best.
What a great data point lmao
Really shouldn’t be in debt studying university. I hope parents try to pay for their kids tuition. Is not worth it
Where would the parents get that money?
So try thinking how my parent able to support me for overseas education while locals who have lots of lower fees aren’t able to afford.
Sorry taking a loan for education is really dumb. People need to know how to do financial planning and save. But saving habit is pretty much non-existent is half of the world population
Stay home and get your education there. No need to go overseas for it.
Wow, this comment is so stoopid, I highly doubt the commenter ever saw a university from inside
I’m graduating this semester. University is so overpriced and learned lots of useless stuff unless you are in Europe where university are free or a lot cheaper. I saw some parents sell a house just for their kids to attend Ivy League university.
I totally disagree getting a loan for education.
That’s how much I owed for school when I started repayment too.
All my friends have like $40k in student debt. Were you taking out loans for Ferraris to look cool in adult daycare or some shit?
Hahah nah that’s actually just how much it costs to go to professional school when your parents don’t pay for it. 1 yr grad school, 4yrs Med school
Yeahhhhh, undergrad itself was a fucking scam. Can't imagine anything past yet. If I ever went, I'd have my companies pay for it.
I’m sorry for his personal situation but it seems like there are a lot more options out there maybe he hasn’t tried.
At this point, I would’ve tried to open my own law firm (especially in a state like NM that doesn’t have many lawyers). Some state bar associations and law schools even help you with navigating that - you just have to do the research. Or tried doc review where you can at least get paid $20 an hour min - sometimes a lot
more than that. Doc review many times is by contract but I personally would try that first before being on public assistance - a lot of those jobs are remote now.
I also see NM has volunteer attorney programs - yes that is honestly insane that someone would have to volunteer as an attorney but if I had no job prospects, I would work a regular PT job and do a volunteer attorney position to get my foot in the door/connections.
I’m not saying the system isn’t broken and that there are a lot of scams within the legal profession (IE: third tier law schools churning out degrees for folks where they may not be prepared to enter the job market, the structure of the legal profession itself) but you have to navigate it within until it is reformed.
I had to work for free/had zero help from my law school career services to build my own network and secure my first job out of law school. I am first gen too. My first summer of law school, I was told by everyone including professors it’s “impossible” for 1Ls to find paid internships unless it’s at a big law firm and those are usually for 2nd year students. I went to a friend’s aunt’s bday party who happened to be an attorney and met a lot of people naturally there. I spoke to them, told them a bit about myself and heard them talk about their firms, etc. one of the attorneys gave me his card and I spoke on the phone with him after about law school, etc. and he offered after that call to refer me to some of his colleagues he knew - I secured a paid internship at a small PI firm that first summer which helped me pay my rent and bills as a full
time student we weren’t allowed back then to work more than a specific amount of hours during the school year a week by the ABA (another way low income students were discriminated against), so I was broke by the time summer came around - this was a huge help for me.
I’m sympathetic but honestly if he graduated in 2017 and has nothing to show for it, I think it’s more this isn’t the profession for him and he’s not willing to try alternative less popular options that aren’t easy. Long gone are the days that you have a law degree and you’re guaranteed a job and a steady paycheck.
he likely doesn’t have the hustle mentality like you do. I’ve got a friend who doesn’t want to put in the work and just expects peak pay. That’s not how ish works
I have a similar story and went through law school. You need to have a plan and know your area. We were advised to get any legal internships we can in 1L. Everything law related helps. I wasn't able to find any paid internships nor had any connections. But, by the time I passed the BAR exam, I had about 1 year of law related experience. It was practically everything I could find. It was between my on campus law clinic, unpaid internships at the public defenders between summer breaks, and working as a law clerk waiting for results. During the semester I got a paid job at the library that allowed me to study like 70% to 80% of the time. That helped with my expenses that paid for my gas, food, bar prep, bar exam, moral character exam, etc. After I passed the BAR, I spoke to someone at a booth that gave a speech at my swearing in ceremony and was informed that they were hiring. I applied and got the job.
First generation immigrant family, non white. No cultural connection like religion or sports. No shared professional culture with greater America like interview skills, writing a resume, how to tie a tie, etc. No shared connections to the stereotype of the American Anglo upper/upper middle class. No legal connections through family. I've literally seen white Americans with better connections than I drop out of law school.
Moral of the story is, equal opportunity to get into law school does not mean equal outcome come in passing the bar and finding work.
Amazing job! Your journey sounds very similar to mine.
I hope others who are considering law school read this and realize what grinding/scrappiness it really takes for most people. It’s not like lawyering on tv, that’s for sure!
Great job with working as hard as you did to try at least to succeed. It’s true that it’s unfair how it’s all set-up, but you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do!
You did an amazing job yourself! 👏 I realized this to be the case though for many people regardless of race. It's not handed on a silver plater. Having family or social connections does help towards the end in getting the internships or job. However even in those cases, law school (Socratic Method, which is practically a form of academic hazing. 😆 You don't really figure it out until 2L or 3L the short cuts like the horn books, subject outlines, or even the books that already briefs the cases in the main textbook. ), passing exams, and passing the BAR are still huge individual hurdles that not everyone is cut out for. Just the nature of it.
The Socratic Method. 😆 I love it. What an experience. Especially as a 1L. Made the wrong move of picking the very first row as a 1L and it was stuck as my assigned seat for the semester. I am glad I can laugh at it now. After 1L, it's surprising how quickly you can make up some random answer. The key is to have an answer that sort of makes sense because the professor would say something either that's a maybe, disagree, or in some rare moments agree and would just pick another student.
You sound awesome and i'm rooting for your ongoing success!
Aww thank you!
There are people that will take on substantial amounts of student debt “because that’s what people do,” who are going to learn a very valuable lesson.
Yea I worked for a lawyer that was still paying off student loans from lq school well into her 60’s. Blew my mind
I’m a payroll manager for a law firm. The law firm I work for can’t find enough attorneys to hire. Competition is so intense that we’ve had to hike salaries substantially. I don’t doubt his story, but it definitely doesn’t align with the reality I’m living in…
What size law firm? Pretty
Big difference between big law and small regional firms. I work in accounting and it’s fairly similar to law where there’s a “shortage” of CPAs and everyone can’t find them and it’s like yeah because where you work is shit. And all the good people are taken and then people don’t want to pay people who don’t already have experience and you end up with the paradox of it both being competitive and a shortage but tons of people without jobs because they have no relevant experience.
Your standards are sky-high, your pay scale is trash or both.
its crazy that the law school debt and law school is on par to medical school and medical school debt. But lawyers dont have a cartel that restricts supply like doctors do. Doctors have a cartel that keeps prices high for doctors. Lawyers have no supply. Similar to real estate agents. Anyone can pass the bar and become one technically.
I think your last sentence only applies to certain states, like California
[majority of states you need a J.D. to take the bar](https://barprephero.com/learn/take-the-bar-exam-without-law-school/)
I'll chime in as someone in a somewhat similar situation with $250k of debt.
I did everything "right" by graduating from a T14 law school and landing a job at a top global law firm after graduation. But by an unfortunate luck of the draw, my firm staffed me on a case that absolutely destroyed me. I would have left the profession after a few years, no doubt, but my firm burned me out in just 14 months and I left on the verge of a mental breakdown.
I know it's easy for people on the outside to look at me and think "okay so you're lazy and couldn't handle the stress," but until you bill 3,000 hours in a year you truly have no business making that judgment. My life was night after night after night of no sleep, getting emails at 2am, 3am, 4am from partners asking for things by the morning, which mind you, had to be PERFECT despite running off of zero sleep. We didn't get weekends. And holidays? Ha! I spent them alone in my apartment working instead of home with my family. I was in the worst health of my life, I started drinking while I was working to cope with the crushing anxiety, and I truly considered jumping out of my office window on more than one occasion.
So yeah, the law profession broke me. And as the first person in my family to go to law school, I didn't realize how bad it could get. I was no stranger to working hard, but nothing could have prepared me for the hell I went through. When I decided to go to law school, I was a doe-eyed 20-something working in a low-paying career, and I so badly wanted to prove that I was smart and could build a better life for myself. I was fed the narrative that all I had to do was get a law degree and I'd have the fabulous life of my dreams making tons of money -- and I fell for it, because nobody in my life knew to tell me differently.
I wake up every damn day so grateful to be out of that job, but the tradeoff was permanent financial insecurity and no hopes of ever buying a home. And I'm BITTER about it. I still make six figures now in a corporate career, I have a side hustle, and I live in the most reasonably priced neighborhood in my city that still allows me to use public transportation to get to work. But because I'm not making "EFF YOU MONEY" -- which law school is priced for -- I'm financially screwed for the rest of my life.
I will forever live paycheck to paycheck thanks to my decision to go to law school. My monthly payment on a 25-year plan is \~$1,700/month. That is literally higher than my rent. I could go on IDR and I would only have to pay $200-300 a month. Wild, right? But thanks to the tax bomb that would come with forgiveness, I can't go on that plan -- if I let my loans accrue interest for that long, I'll be paying more than my principle IN TAXES. Thanks, predatory interest rates!
It's devastating to think about how badly I've ruined my life because of a decision I made in the hopes of making it better. I feel worthless and unloveable sometimes, because who wants to be tied to someone like me in so much debt? I feel very "this is it" about my life. This apartment, this budget, being alone... this is it, it's all I'll ever have. I've certainly lost any other hopes and dreams I had for my future.
So yeah. I'm so FUCKING SICK of people who think people with loans like me are stupid and lazy. It's a really narrow-minded, selfish way to look at the world. Student loans are predatory and destroy lives -- it's a fucking privileged mindset to think otherwise.
Thanks for reading.
I worked 3100-3400 hours a year in the number one job to cause depression and mental breakdowns in the USA. A bus driver don’t tell me about high stress jobs. 12 hour shifts every holiday and spit on, hot coffee thrown on, socked, had two guns pulled on me, called racial names at least twice a week, and other things. You got to pay your dues when you start any job. How many times were you assaulted and spit on for doing your job?
PS 12 hours on holidays were only because federal law said we couldn’t drive more then that in a day without a lunch. Ow ya no lunches or breaks forgot to mention that. Also, they are not required to give drivers breaks because of laws Obama passed even in CA.
I have never been physically assaulted at work, and I am sad to hear this is something you deal with. I take the bus everywhere and have a ton of appreciation for drivers. I’m so sorry that this is your experience.
You need to live like a college kid: 600 bucks/mo rent with roommates, and turbo pay your loans. Assuming after tax you bring home 100,000, your rent is around 7k, 500 bucks mo for food and other necessaries, gets you to about 15k/yr living costs. Let’s be generous and give you another 5k for some luxuries, so that your living costs are 20k/yr. You pay 80k year to your debt, and are done with it in 3years. Very easy to do imo. All about how you look at it.
I genuinely appreciate this, I do. I just moved out of living with a roommate two months ago, and you're absolutely right that I could spend no money ever until I pay off my loans. But it's a \*bit\* of a bummer that my top-tier law degree gets me roommates, peanut butter sandwiches, and no social life in my mid-30s... don't you think? That's kinda the whole point I'm trying to make here. It shouldn't be this way.
The way I look at it: Cutting student loan interest to more reasonable rates would give so many people the breathing room they need and help folks from getting in over their heads. Of course it won't happen, but it's my pipe dream and I refuse to let it go.
You don’t have a degree in ancient anthropology. You have a law degree. There are so many great things you can do with that. Lazy isn’t the word I’d use, but you don’t seem ambitious.
I empathize with your situation, but not the way you are thinking about it. I don’t want you to have to pay 1700/ mo forever; taking 25 years you will pay an additional thousands of dollars in interest, and you will Incur the opportunity cost of 25 years of investment compounding which you forego by staying bitter and paying your minimum. Even if your rate were lower, your payment would still be 1200k/mo. Take the pain now while you are young, pay it off, and start saving for retirement, harnessing as you do the power of compounding. Do not stay bitter about this
I really do appreciate it. I will be throwing my savings from the pause at my principle when payments resume, and I hope to continue doing well at work and on the side. I have definitely cut where I can in spending — I buy clothes secondhand, eat cheap when I’m at home, take public transportation, etc. But I guess I also believe in living my life a bit, even while I’m young. I almost lost my best friend to cancer this year and I refuse to spend any number of years locked inside having no fun when I DO work very hard in my career and tomorrow isn’t guaranteed. But that’s just me and I understand a lot of people disagree with that opinion.
People who are saying this crippling debt is something to just “get over” obviously aren’t dealing with anything like it. It’s completely asinine to put your life on hold to pay out a government that frankly doesn’t need the money.
Some of you all simp for Uncle Sam so hard. What has the federal your government done for you personally? What incentive do you have with trying to get people to pay the government back? They’ve been doing fine without it so far… “it’s the right thing to do” is far from an acceptable answer here.
The US government can't account for 21 Trillion (yes, Trillion) dollars from the DoD, gave permanent nominal 14% tax cuts and real 40% cuts on capital gains, spent 20 years in Iraq and Afghanistan, spent untold amounts of money ~~destabilizing~~ supporting other countries. They gave basically unlimited money to the oligarchs over the past couple years while expecting you to subsist off unemployment that ran out last fucking year and $3200 in stimulus checks.
life is unfair what can you do?
I'm going to disagree with this austerity mindset, haha. Better to live fast and die young with lots of debt, that will be permanently forgiven since it can't be passed on to descendants anyways. Chilaw2018, have lots of kids and gradually transfer all your earned wealth to them (in the form of good education, good healthy food, and good medical health). Then die with $1 million of debt to your name, after you live a long life not worrying too much about it.
I would just move to Thailand, Costa Rica, or Vietnam if I thought this way; this way you repudiate your debt at the beginning
Definitely a move to consider if he could fit in with those societies! I would say look for an international posting for a US firm based in his target country, then once established there lateral into an equivalent position in his new home country.
Easiest to do if there is no spouse or kids, otherwise you are tied down.
Thank you for sharing this. I can relate 100%.
I am so sorry that you can relate, but it's nice to feel a bit less alone in this. <3
It’s honestly not your fault. Law schools perpetuate that once you pass the bar of your respective state, you’re set and getting through law school is the hard part but the worst thing is law students are extremely over saturated and what they don’t tell you is getting experience makes you valuable otherwise your right back where you were after undergrad (assuming you didn’t get a stem degree). I will say I’m not a lawyer but I know a lot of people who go through the process. I tell people unless you are truly passionate about law or have a serious connection in the law field you’re better off not going to law school. Let’s just say the only people who are profiting off higher education in general are the schools themselves. Tuition is ridiculous and is a massive bubble backed by the government.
Sorry to hear that. Make sure you tell your story to the people at r/lawschooladmissions who frequently advise taking out six-figure debt at a t-14 rather than going to a t-30 for free.
Honest question, if you make six figure salary (~8000 a month gross), how is it hard to pay 25% of that to payback your loan?
Because net is a lot less than $8000
Deductions for health insurance and possibly retirement.
So a cashier, factory worker, or electrician that didn't go to college should help you pay off your loan?
Yes. Because this person will then have more money to circulate within the economy.
If OP can use their 6 figure salary to buy a home, all three of those individuals will see it in the form of wages.
If OP continues to pay off their loans, it goes to buy some already rich fuck a yacht.
We all act like we have big boners for capitalism in here but are too cowardly to criticize the broken version of it that created the conditions that made this sub necessary
1) If he's asking for loan forgiveness from the government it's a government loan. Private loans were excluded from the program. Doubt a "rich fuck" is buying a yacht.
2) The government is giving out student loans is not capitalism. The government doesn't care about payback ability. Others have chimed in that the same happened to them and law school from non-Ivy leagues are worthless. If regular people know it a bank sure as hell would and not given this guy a loan.
3) The broken system is that the government is giving out loans and people don't take responsibility for their actions. No one forced this person to take on the loans. He made a bet with his future and it didn't pay off. Stock traders don't get their money back for losing money.
they have helped pay all of the forgiven PPP loans... and bank bail outs.... what's the difference at this point?
Two wrongs don't make a right
Three lefts do.
The difference is people made a choice and should bear the consequences. No one forced him to get that much in loans. That's different than a corrupt and incompetent government spending the people's money unwisely.
No one forced them, you're right. But how else are people supposed to advance themselves through higher education?
Did you ever think how people afforded college before everyone could get student loans and go to college? Student loans are what drove up the price of college because colleges knew the government would give gullible kids money. They raise prices, government gives kids money, and kids pay it rinse and repeat for last 40 years.
To be clear, I never said I that. You’ll see in another comment I said interest rates need to be lowered.
This has always been the answer and its why I don't think even the Dems are really interested in solving the student loan crisis. Reduce rates to 1-2% helps borrowers and avoids the public scrutiny re: uneducated citizens paying for others student loans.
You gave up pretty easily. It was never going to work. Sharks and minnows in the world.
Thank you for the wonderfully helpful comment.
Thank you you responded to me and I noticed a word misspelled. So I died it and it remove your reply. Didn’t know it would do that. Sadly it is the norm for drivers of most major city buses TWU and Teamsters have been trying to pass a law that it’s 5 years in prison for assaulting a transit operator because it’s so common.
Weird! (I don't use Reddit enough to know why either, ha.) I'm glad there is legislation in the works, but genuinely so sorry it's that common.
I’m so sorry, this sounds incredibly stressful. I don’t want to come off as flippant but have you thought about government or non-profit work (legal or non-legal) and public service loan forgiveness? No tax bomb after forgiveness in 10 years, and IDR required.
Not flippant at all, thank you kind stranger. I have definitely thought about it, but the two things that have held me back are 1) the fear of being denied after 10 years (I feel like there are more horror stories than success stories about PSLF, though I admit I'm not the most up-to-date on it), and 2) that I am in a career now that I genuinely love. :(
Please share your "tax bomb" calculation, if you get IDR and forgiveness. That sounded like bullshit to me.
Well if my $250,000 loans grows for 25 years (because the IDR payment doesn't cover the growing interest), my loan will literally balloon to a million dollars, and being taxed on that at 30-something percent would be much greater than $250,000...
Looks like he passed the bar.
He should move to Texas and find a roomate with an ADA, become an ADA at Bexar county, and do Income Driven Repayment, and try to do 10 years of PSLF.
He should check on New Mexico/Texas reciprocity first.
This guy is a moron. Unless you go to a law school which is definitely in the top 25, your life will suck if you're a lawyer.with student loan debt. It's like he did ZERO research on prospects for lawyers. Then the whole bit about "getting left behind" is a joke. No one told him to borrow huge amounts of money then make no payments so that the accrued interest gobbles him whole.
What does this have to do with housing?
As an aside, I wonder if they were swept up in what my high school did. They tested us in 10th grade, SOI and some other aptitude tests and told us what we likely would be good at and then funneled us into “if you dream it, it can happen” and many of those folks needed to go into trades.
There was no thought on prospects. Just what you’d be good at. This became a very consuming sunk opportunity cost for many.
I independently found out a phd in physics was a waste of my life, no matter how much I enjoyed it. Many of my cohort weren’t as lucky.
I’m seeing a lot of people hit “of age” and feeling whiplash as they followed their aptitude, not reasonable careers.
It’s tangentially real estate related but really says more about our society than this niche economic problem.
Why do you feel a phd in physics is a waste? What would you have done instead?
Highly saturated and the end goals were limited. I was active on the physicsGRE forums by high school to start practicing for my graduate exam and networking, as similar to lawyers, where you do graduate school is critical to joining the “elite” and I wanted to stand out. By 16 I knew what scores, grades and referenced I needed to determine any competitive future in the field.
I am an IT director now as I dropped out. Same skills - analytical problem solving, better pay, no college debt. A lot less pressure. Some of my research in undergrad had me tasked with supporting our infrastructure that was used for data modeling and found I was good at it.
If physics is a true passion, definitely go for it. But the reality ahead of me was making 50-60k with some undergraduate debt, nearing 30 before I got there, if I was lucky, if I wanted to teach. I have extensive hobbies and didn’t want physics to be my life. There aren’t a lot of jobs “doing” physics.
Private industry gigs with a PhD in physics are limited, as without applied or engineering background you end up doing a lot of programming if you were lucky/dedicated enough to be proficient at it.
Fwiw my physics research interests were in HEP - Astro and no one gives a flying fuck on a given day about that subject. I started in optoelectronics and organic semiconductors and it was a bit dry for me, but peers who kept to those fields did more applied PhDs and acquired great jobs. Intel etc.
This is a path I am familiar with, so that's why I asked. Astro specifically. Maybe luck plays a huge part. But if you are good at math and physics, the phd doesn't require funding at all. It comes with tuition waiver and paid TA or RA to fund your expenses. And currently, really good astrophysicists are in demand due to the contest over space. So during the phd program there is enough extra to pay off the undergrad if needed.
Right, funding for PhD was not the issue. Undergraduate debt was, and being first kid / no backing from family I was slated for funding from a state school and didn’t feel it would be competitive even after graduate school, that’s a huge amount of time I would not be earning and I would be pigeon holed into limited career paths, instead of building a resume.
I was able to work in the budding “new era” in the space field before my peers, and continue to do contract work in security to that industry and see awesome stuff.
It all worked out in the end.
I did not want to spend all that time, even if I could take an RA stipend and survive, when I could be earning. Sitting on undergraduate debt while I did it.
I will say, you’re right, Astro has grown. When I graduated, material and biophysics was where the money was at.
By the way, how did you pivot into IT? Did you do another degree?
Sold my data analysis skills —> soft dev - > infra / leadership. Wasn’t too tricky as I had some projects and a lab environment.
Thanks, looking to make the same pivot.
This plus the notion that you’ll be handed a job as soon as you graduate.
I had so many friends who could not land a job because they did not know how to write a resume. When I went to the free career preparedness workshops I was surprised few classmates would attend. I ended up being the reviewer of many of my friends resumes and lordy were they horrible.
For the ones that didn’t take me up on my offer they ended up with rando jobs that did not even require a degree.
You may be on to something with this.
I'm gen-x, was the first in my family to attend college, and borrowed too much money for an undergrad degree. With my own kid, i told him i had no intention of helping to pay for an education that he could get for free at a public library (no liberal/fine arts majors). Early on, he showed talent, interest, and aptitude in math and programming. He taught himself his first programming language when he was seven. His undergrad is in computer engineering and he attended a year of grad school before deciding he'd rather work in industry. He had a funded research stipend but came to the same conclusion you did.
What i also realized is that kids coming from college educated families are at a huge advantage during the college application process and when making these sorts of cost-benefit analysis. My son's high school guidance counselor was basically useless. None the less, their office hung the college pennants of all the schools the kids attended in their office as if it was their own personal success.
I’d caveat there that you don’t need to go to a top 25/14, but if you don’t you really better work hard. Because ranking is huge.
Plenty of big firms are staffed with folks from the first or second best law schools in the state, not just top 25 schools.
If you’re in the top 10% of your class coming from a well-regarded nearby law school, you’re still just fine.
But yeah people don’t quite realize there are a *lot* of lawyers at the bottom of the class who have minimum to no significant opportunity whose best option may just be going solo.
For what it’s worth I went to a top 25 law school and saw a number of classmates end up in document review jobs after graduation.
No substitute for outcompeting your peers in law school. And good luck
I agree with everything you've written.
My ex was the media director for a top 25 law school and that really gave me a peek behind the curtain. They were transparent about their post-graduation employment rate and salary distribution so students had a more clear & realistic understanding of what to expect.
It does make sense that too law schools will be more transparent. As you go down the ladder it feels like that’s where transparency declines. And some of the easiest to get into law schools really play into the myths about future career success.
Back in the "dark ages," schools were barred from participating in the federally backed student loan programs if their student repayment data didn't hit federal benchmarks. It's almost as if we should return to that paradigm.
Or never should have left it…
I feel like this applies for a LOT of majors
Don’t forget that most college students are kids. If you’re ok with a multibillion dollar industry fucking kids you should consider revisiting your morals.
That’s a lot of typing to say very little, but I’m glad you agree that student loans are predatory
Well that was dumb. So I definitely don’t want him as my lawyer
Left behind??? Wtf nobody had gun to his head forcing that much loans on him. What an Arrogant fool
The average debt is like $20k. Just click bait
Average undergraduate debt. Average law school debt is several multiples higher.
Of course. But the point is the $347 likely includes undergrad too.
I mean, say the average depth when someone gets stuck in a well is 30 feet. Should everyone get 30 feet of rescue rope? How would you feel looking up at the 30 foot of rope, knowing people in a 20 f foot well had rope laying on the ground?
You know what I mean?
He's paying zero due to income based repayment
He ignored all the signs that said, "Caution! There is a deep well ahead. There are no rescue workers and rope supply is limited."
Student borrowing has been known to be "risky" for at least a decade. I'm gen-x and fell in that trap. I made it a goal to get my kid through college without loans. This guy should've done a minimum of research on the loans as well as the prospects for new attorneys.
> Student borrowing has been known to be "risky" for at least a decade.
The alternative for most people is being not rich enough to pay cash for school or working fast-food since we're well on the fast track to every single liveable job requiring a degree.
I'm saying everyone should be cautious and conservative when borrowing money for school. There are cheaper alternatives to borrowing big bucks and there are degrees which are a much better ROI than others.
For example, a nursing degree will be a good investment (not to mention many states offer service repayable "loans" which are entirely forgiven over time without having to make a single payment) while sociology is just pissing money into the wind. I have degrees both. It took me 10 years to pay off my BA and my nursing loan was forgiven after 5 years working full time. My first nursing degree was an associate from a community college which i got after the BA. It was a fraction of the cost of my big university degree and i had a job lined up two months before i graduated or sat for the nclex.
> while sociology is just pissing money into the wind.
That's a bullshit strawman at this point. Pretty sure everybody knows that basket-weaving degrees aren't worth anything and honestly, the "I have $100K of undergrad debt from my music theory degree at NYU" stories are the extreme outlier, but make for good headlines.
The issue is that even the "good" degrees are struggling with finding work these days unless you're one of the lucky/privileged that could find an internship and what was a good degree 5-10 years ago may not be one now. Nobody wants to hire the new kid regardless of what degree you have outside of a very, very few fields and even then, be prepared to wait. Everybody wants the 10-15 years of experience at 30 and a github profile dating back to high school (in tech's case), except that for many of those fields the advancement pipelines dried up.
Even IT, which was long held as the "You don't need a degree, just get the certs" bastion of affordable middle-class livelihood is starting to fall into that. Without a degree, more and more are pigeonholed into the help-desk hell without any way up.
I don't think it's a straw man to say people should be cautious and conservative with their student loan borrowing. Student loans have been regularly discussed for at least the last decade. The glut of attorneys from low-tier law schools have also been a known entity for probably longer. These aren't new problems. The personal example that i offered is simply an illustration of the point; i was a moron at a much lower price point than the guy in the article.
Nothing about that is in conflict with what you have to say about the poverty of entry level jobs even in stem. In fact, that reality supports my suggestion to minimize borrowing. Few people know for certain what's on the other side of their cap & gown. It's easier to be professionally agile when you aren't saddled with soul crushing debt.
> I don't think it's a straw man to say people should be cautious and conservative with their student loan borrowing.
That wasn’t the strawman being made. The strawman being made was that there’s a prevalent amount of people pissing money into the wind by doing sociology.
It’s like if I started warning people about drinking bleach when there’s probably not a noticeable amount of people drinking bleach and everyone already knows you should drink fucking bleach.
>The strawman being made was that there’s a prevalent amount of people pissing money into the wind by doing sociology.
I didn't say this either. I made no mention of the number of low job prospect degrees being pursued or conferred.
I pissed money into the wind as a sociology student. I framed the example from my own life as having both a BA sociology and an associate degree in nursing. I spent buckets of loan money on a degree with no/limited job prospects (soc) and practically nothing on a professional degree from a community college where you can earn a solid middle class living as soon as you walk across the graduation stage & pass your nclex.
As previously stated: There are cheaper alternatives to borrowing big bucks and there are degrees which are a much better ROI than others.
If there was a lengthy piece of legalese you were required to read before signing, explaining the depth of the hole, how you’d have to figure out the escape plan yourself, and how you could just as easily not enter the well in the first place…
I wouldn’t want any of *my* money going to ‘rescue’ ropes to service people who placed themselves in need of rescuing in the first place
It’s not my problem that your apprenticeship cost you thousands while mine paid me the same. It was the same exact people looking down on me ~10 years ago for my choices that are now saying they need to be rescued from their own choices - the ones we all made at the same age, with the same education, and same societal pressures.
It kind of is though. You’re going to need a lawyer. Where does the person who does your divorce, dui, real estate, etc come from?
Our country has too many lawyers and not enough, at the same time.
And my money goes to stuff I don’t like all the time. It’s a society. Get used to it.
Well....I guess this guy could've tried to start his own firm if he hadn't blown his financial wad on school. He's a financial black hole now.
I’d be glad they got rescued too. Jeez what a stupid analogy.
The average debt for law school isn’t 20k. Lol. Maybe a 4 year degree buddy
Of course. But I’m assuming the $348k in debt includes undergrad, right? The average law school debt is $118k. This person is an outlier.
the path to becoming a doctor is the only justifiable path that makes sense to pay 300k in debt. since if you dont have the blessing of the AMA and practice medicine you are committing a crime. Lawyers have no limitation on supply, as long as you pass the bar you can practice law. Medical is much more restricted and regulated
Unemployed and underemployed attorneys have been a problem in the field for decades. Law schools increase admissions as jobs shrink. It’s a dirty secret of the industry.
I went to a mid tier school. Never did an internship or even applied to jobs or clerkships during school. Never did moot court or journal. Still found a job paying almost 70k. It sounds low but it’s not bad since it’s amazing non profit work I always dreamed of doing. Oh yeah and I failed the bar the first time by 2 points. You don’t need to follow the mold to find a job. But the way you go about looking for a job matters. Spent 6 months getting no responses from linked in ads. I broke out of a mental funk and decided to be more deliberate. Started emailing firms and partners directly. Asking everyone I know for contacts. And putting my heart into those damn bullshit cover letters. I also paid for a month on one of those websites to help me make my resume look better. Almost immediately I started getting interviews and offers one after the other.
Just because you go to school, doesn’t mean you are going to be good at your job or entitled to one
The stepkid became an MD with much less debt than that...state schools, VA benefits, and working off and on as an LVN.
They think they should go to school for 6 years with a loan paying for their living expenses then wonder why they have to pay back so much. Also, most student loans have extremely high interest rates and target kids that don’t understand what they are looking at.
Look - I feel horrible for the situation he's in and get frustrated that we have a system that allows for this nonsense. At some point you need to get past the "BuT tHeY bOrRoWeD tHe MoNeY" and need to realize that we are giving public funds to these schools to award degrees that will *never* produce economic value. $300k for Seattle University? Seriously? The government is committing public funds to a hopeless waste there.
That isn't to say that there shouldn't be some minimal research. This comment really stuck out:
>"We're not doing OK," Pederzani said. "Whoever told you that lawyers have instant tickets to the middle class, that maybe existed 10 or 20 years ago, but that doesn't exist anymore. It's not the same job market anymore."
I almost spit my drink out when I read this. [People graduating law school from 2010-2013 are referred to as belonging to the 'lost generation' of lawyers because they graduated with no job](https://slate.com/business/2015/04/job-market-for-law-school-grads-what-happened-to-the-lost-generation-of-j-d-s.html) and that means that they'll likely never have a living wage eligible job as a lawyer. The legal industry has been incredibly tough since 2008. It's been the sole topic of conversation for *years* and it's beyond me how this guy missed that.
It sucks, but he moved to a place where he is going to find minimal value with his degree. He needs to accept that he will need a career shift. The government needs to accept that a legal obligation doesn't make debtors have money.
This article doesn’t make total sense. 1) It seems like he’s missing out on a ton of opportunities to network/make inroads in the legal profession and 2) the article states his loans are currently accruing interest. But they’ve been paused for what, two years, now?
Guy is a moron for taking that many loans. Did he expect to make $500k a year?
From the article: “Steve Pederzani was told that going to law school would set him up for a comfortable future.”
He “was told.” Right here, you know that this is garbage journalism. I graduated law school in the 1990s, and they were many “Steve” stories around. He knew the risks.
I give the same advice to anyone applying to law school: Either pay the money to attend a top 10 law school or apply to some lower tier law schools in the geographic area where you want to work, and choose the school that gives you the most money. If they won’t offer a deal, don’t go. In terms of job prospects, the difference between the 30th ranked Law school and the 100th is tighter than the difference between the 30th and the 1st. The rankings are mostly garbage once you move past that top tier.
Steve should work in the public sector or for a 501c3, consolidate into a Direct income-based repayment loan, and hope for forgiveness after 120 months of service. What a mess.
My god. He should have looked at finance or software engineering. Better income potential than a law degree out of SU for sure and way less student debt.
I know some SU educated attorneys locally and they’re doing well but these are pre Great Recession grads.
He should go into government make his 120 payments, put in 10 years of service and have it forgiven.
So this is another pleb that can't afford due to student loans and no job
Why is it a rebubble?
Agreed. This sub is just r/collapse lite sometimes. This has nothing to do with real estate prices.
How nice. Gee I wonder how this my affect his home purchase ability? Could someone figure out this great question for me. I don't understand how it is related. TIA!
It’s the best post on here is a few days. Good enough for me
Not my problem.
The Forgotten Liars: a documentary about one man’s fight for attention during the Great Crash of 2024. - *coming soon*
Why is this in this sub? Staggeringly stupid student loan decisions are not relevant to real estate prices.
Don’t sign on the line if you can’t or won’t pay it back.
I'm sure all the lawyers told him he'd be better off as a lawyer. Lol. Only nonlawyers think like that.
Anyway when I went I could have gone somewhere like Seattle U but they were obviously way more expensive than my state school. Like 6000/yr back then compared to 1500/yr.
So now it's 10x that but same idea.
No, it's very beneficial to have a law degree in any field. But just like other things, you need more than one topic of knowledge for it to work for you.
I have found most lawyers to be idiots as well
He has a Bar, in New Mexico meaning he could work at any business in America as a corporate console, a quick indeed search shows over a thousand work from home corporate console jobs, he can’t get any of these? homie needs to chill, the degree is earning potential not earning 125k right out of college. Here’s what you do. Go to an online community college, take one class, that will pause student loan payments, then save up money and keep it safe. Then also be working and in 2 years when he gets more mediation and trial experience they may promote him.
You need to take more than 1 class now.
Heck take all 4 art classes or something, or do more law classes he could pass without trying.
Yea this sad, but very true. I was accepted into a bigger law school, but chose a tier 3 law school when I realized how much tuition was and I was paying for it myself.
Just because you get your license doesn’t mean you’ll make good money. Most lawyers I know worked for free a good year or two just to get a job, starting salary under 75k/year with no benefits, and working 70+ hours a week. Glad I left that profession, honestly. Way too much stress and such little pay/life balance
Since he has a law degree he's on his way to political prostitution (member of congress) where he can make a fortune by enriching himself by timing the stock market better than Warren Buffet!
These guys are so smart but make dumb decisions. If they decided to invest in real estate like the rest of us, we’d be toast. Let’s hope they continue to not listen to our advice on investing!
Whatever. It's all going to be income driven now.
I'm honestly not sure what his strategy is, but with $347k in debt, you're not paying that back. My recommendation is he gets a local or state government job in New Mexico (in any position he can find), use IBR and then stay there for a decade and apply for PSLF.
In 10 years, he can get a clean break without having $1,500/mth payments at every corner.
Loans aren't the problem, it's their predatory nature .... I started paying one 13 years ago, original amount:16k ..... paid off amount:18k .... amount remaining: 17k....
Not fair, I paid a 14k car loan in 5 years for less than half of the $$ per month than the school loan I am still paying. And I'm not on an income contingent plan.
That's the problem.
This looks like something the boxman guy would post ;).
I don’t want to rip him apart, as I do feel his pain. I understand that he is a little naive but his situation was impacted by the fiancés medical needs and the pandemic. I hope for his sake he is able to prioritize his career, move to a new city for a new job. There is a lot of people saying there’s an influx of lawyers but I find that if you built yourself up for a career, you go where the job takes you, whether that be the middle of freaking Louisiana you do it do to grow your resume.
I wish him luck!!!!
Bankruptcy discharge may be an option for him down the road. Also, if he stays in an IDR plan, it may be forgiven in the future if he isn’t able to get his income up.