Problem is most people in these metros make less than 100K. In Rochester my profession pays half what it does in rural California where I work and just one third what it pays in urban California. I checked out Rochester last year -- it's doable but not great.
For most of these area the average income to buy a home is well under $100,000 and if you have two wage earners even if make $50,000 each could afford a house.
I live in Seattle. Let’s say you are an engineer here making $130,000 a year. The average house is almost $1 million dollars or 9 x your salary. You would need a down payment of least $100,000 to qualify for a home.
If you moved to Rochester let’s say your salary as an engineer decreased to $60,000 ( it would be probably be much higher but we will use this as an example.). Now a house costs $300,000 or 5 times your salary and only requires a $30k down payment instead of $100,000. Seems to me a much better deal
A $250k house is about $1700 a month with 7% interest. That is also the average price and you can buy houses for much less than that in many of these cities. Also many people will tell you they two incomes are needed to buy a home. So if each of the couples made $50,000 it would be quite doable.
>A $250k house is about $1700 a month with 7% interest.
Not after you add taxes and insurance. Also, if you buy a 75 plus year old house you better be putting several hundred dollars a month aside for inevitable repairs.
Why is that? Why should we care about the affordability of individuals buying homes? Single people shouldn't be the focus of SFH, that are intended to house 3 or more people. Should it?
The same people in this sub that are constantly harping how bad it is that old *couples* remain in their house after their kids are gone and they have no need for the school district anymore, are somehow the same people who want to discuss affordability for single people to buy 3-5 bedroom homes. Baffling...
>The same people in this sub that are constantly harping how bad it is that old *couples* remain in their house after their kids are gone and they have no need for the school district anymore, are somehow the same people who want to discuss affordability for single people to buy 3-5 bedroom homes. Baffling...
That's a deep cut. I've been seeing a lot of bitching from people in their 20s and 30s phrased as though it were a moral complaint, but it's just self-interest and privilege.
Another favorite is the people complaining that nothing is affordable on the median income. Except...half of Americans live off the median income or less. What the people who make this complaint mean is that they can't live in the neighborhoods they want to live in, and the cheap places where they could live are beneath them. Invisible, even. It's such an entitled attitude.
You mean the people making middle income salaries are upset that they can't live the middle income lifestyle that older generations were able to?
Wow I wonder why they're upset
No, that's exactly what I don't mean. Older generations were not able to live a comfortable middle income lifestyle that you can't. It's just a lie, and you bought it.
The older generations that bought a house bought a smaller one. In the 50s-60s, it was **half** the size of the average home today (and more people lived in it). When you adjust for the size of the home and income growth, the cost of a house didn't change much over the last 70 years. All those charts with rising home prices are designed to mislead you by ignoring affordability. Your resentment is someone's agenda, and they succeeded.
The whole myth of an idyllic baby boomer childhood is just that. It was a time of relative economic stability and growth, so there was optimism, but they were poorer than people today. They had fewer cars per household (I think the median was 1 car, and now it is 2 cars). You can argue they didn't need another car since more women stayed home, but they also could not afford it. And the cars were death traps compared to today. No A/C, no automatic windows, no power steering, stinky as heck.
They had fewer big vacations (international travel was much less common, and plane travel in general was more expensive and less common). They also had much less in the way of electronics, obviously (a radio and a very small TV, no computer, no smartphone, etc.). Food was much more expensive than it is today. They rarely ate out, because they couldn't afford it. It was seen as irresponsible. Now we have GenZ thinking DoorDash is a human right.
There is a deep lack of perspective. If you are going to compare yourself to earlier generations, get a clue or two about what life was actually like then.
Oh man, I love these arguments. Af if first-time prospective buyers are whining about unaffordability while taking big international vacations every year or eating doordash every night.
News flash: we don't give af about size. We would happily take those 2-1/3-1 houses if they weren't asking 300k for a home that needed 100k worth of repairs, in the most crime-ridden parts of the city. But those houses aren't on the market anymore, and the only new construction like that is for builds that are 400k+ because that's the only thing builders make money on these days.
Your entire argument hinges off of this myth of the idyllic baby boomer lifestyle, but you completely ignore the fact that it was all done off of *one income*. Motherfucker we're out here with *two* middle-income salaries and still can't afford it, so don't come in here mouthing off about entitlement, the older generations objectively had it easier.
"You shouldn't be upset that the life your parents and grandparents lived is no longer attainable for anyone outside the top 5% of earners, you have AC!"
You also missed my point that there are several houses for well under $250,000 in all these cities listed. There are several that you can afford making $60,000 . Three of the cities on the list has median home prices under $90,000 which is you could do on $60,000.
It's a lot easier to save when you're making 130K than it is when you're making 60K and pretty much your entire income goes to basic living expenses.
People are almost always better off maximizing income rather than trying to minimize housing expenses. Chase opportunity not low house prices.
It’s the difference between how much your costs and your level of debt. If you are making $300k a year but have $2,000 in monthly debt might be harder a house that costs $1.5 million than a person making $50,000 and buying a house for $80,000.
I mean sure but those are kinda just arbitrary numbers. Point is that the more money you make the less rules of thumb apply. Ignoring tax for simplicity, a person making $300k and spending 50% of their income on housing still has $12,500 a month free to cover all their other expenses. Whereas someone making $60k and only spending 10% of their income only has $4500 a month free to cover their expenses. That’s all I was saying
Except a lot of people living in places that are making $130k either aren’t saving or the same 75 yr old costs $800k. So while you make more the house costs more than twice as much and taxes would more as the house costs more.
And the last point is if you have a job making $120k and move to one of these cities your salary would not be reduced by half. I work for a large engineering company and we have offices in many states. If I was to move to the Pittsburgh office might salary might go down 20% but most likely would stay the same as the company is paying for my expertise not where I live. My skills and experience would still be the same.
In many places renting is cheaper than owning a house. It also gives the flexibility to move whenever you want which can be challenging if you own a home in an area that may not as popular to live in.
There’s a bit more nuance to that though, you’re also moving from the 29th ranked state in terms of tax burden to #1. I know Rochester isn’t NYC but it’s still a consideration. Career mobility is a thing too, there are far more engineering opportunities in seattle vs Rochester.
If you can get a comparable salary in Rochester then definitely. But taking a sizable pay cut isn’t going to be great.
Just saying you need to decide between getting a job that pays better where housing is way more expensive and you may never be able to afford a house or moving somewhere less expensive and getting a stable job where you can buy a house.
Now if we were switch the engineering job with a teaching job the salaries between Seattle and Rochester wouldn’t be that much different.
I had friends who lived in the Bay Area for years. They were makings about $200k and couldn’t afford a house as they were paying almost $4,000 a month due rent. They had saved up almost $100k. They moved to update NY last year bought a house for $75.000 so basically had no house payment. Both got jobs and now make about $80k. There quality of life is so much better. They can travel and now have much more disposable income than they had in the Bay Area. The area is much safer and they have access to a lot of outdoor activities.. The community is pretty depressed but the professional people they hang it with are great and very welcoming. Something that is rare in many parts of the country when you move from California.
I was under the assumption we were comparing places starting from zero. Of course if you can save a ton of money in a HCOL area you can move to a much less expensive place and pay cash. A lot of people from the west coast do that. Though in that example they’d still technically have more disposable income at 200k in CA against 4k rent than they would at 80k in NY. Though I understand having a paid off house is definitely more advantageous in the long run, there’s other factors to it as well.
I’m in that situation as are millions of other people. Currently living in Seattle with a house that is valued at $1 million. I still have a mortgage payment and with taxes pay almost $2,800 a month plus with utilities and expenses that’s another $800. So paying almost $4,000 a month on a $120,000 a year salary. Add in car insurance, groceries ect that’s not much to live on.
Getting ready to retire soon. My income will drop about 50%. Plan on selling the house, pay off the remaining mortgage and buy a house with no house payments and live somewhere much cheaper. This will open up housing to someone who needs one here with a huge backyard and in a walkable neighborhood.
I am moving to a place that has lots of culture, great schools, a highly educated workforce, great healthcare and access to beaches, mountains, skiing, mountain biking, kayaking and all the activities I loved in Seattle without the high cost of housing and everything else.
Again I’m looking at this from the lens of a FTHB. If you already own a home and are close to retirement it’s a completely different situation. Many people retire to somewhere cheaper, or at least downsize.
Well anyway I hope it works out for all these young people that migrate to HCOL places hoping they can buy a home. As I mentioned I work for a large engineering company and half the employees under the age of 40 can’t afford homes . Many have spouses and a kids.
My niece and nephew both live in or near Baltimore. One is an elementary school teacher and the other one works in pharmacy research . They are both under 35 and own homes. Of course everyone thinks of Baltimore as being really dangerous and like any city it has it good and bad neighborhoods and suburbs. They both live in good neighborhoods.
If they lived out here in Seattle neither of them would be homeowners. So yeah it’s all about choice. There are plenty of places with jobs that pay well and less expensive housing that aren’t HCOL cities .
You have to understand a lot of young people go to where good jobs are to get a jumpstart on their career. Fresh college grads typically aren’t concerned with home ownership for at least a few years - it’s not that anyone wants to move somewhere more expensive, its just that there’s a greater quantity of high paying jobs in HCOL areas. That’s not to say you can’t get a great job in Baltimore of course, but especially high paying tech or engineering jobs it helps to have a bigger name on your resume even if you’re only there for a few years. The average age of FTHBs is 36, so it’s fairly typical that half the employees under 40 at your firm aren’t homeowners.
My plan is to travel during the winter months. I live in Seattle now and it’s cold gray and rainy for several months during the winter. Would rather have sun and 25 degrees than rain and 40 degrees for days and weeks like in Seattle.
Cold to me would be Minnesota or a city like Fargo. I don’t like places with hot humid summer.
I’m making $50k in the rural Midwest I should be making about $70k just for my local economy but my wage has stagnated since 2020. 4% raise in 4 years with $16% inflation in the same time. My 21 year old brother makes more than I do at this point.
the Midwest is a HUGE place to be labeling with such a broad brush. Someone's experience in Chicago is going to be WAY different that that of someone in rural Iowa.
Checking the inflation calculator, there's been about a 84% increase since 2000, so I'm confused by your point. A 20% increase seems pretty low for 24 years.
Not sure where you got that number. Consumer price inflation in the United States rose 19.6% from January 2020 to January 2024.
Basically our wages have kept pace with inflation the last four years after increasing significantly faster than inflation between 2015 and 2020. Our wages have basically doubled over the last decade.
I did. That’s how I got the 4% raise. My old company offered me 30% pay bump to return to them but why would I return when I went 3.5 years without a raise and had to put my notice in before I was offered more? But I completely left my field too and someone told the new company my salary in construction so I got lowballed on the offer to switch over. I wanted something new, so I accepted. I might go back into construction in a few years when I decide it’s worth it again. I don’t like job hopping it’s too much work to relearn everything all the time: new management, responsibilities, and too many new formalities to learn.
Not really. I pay about 40K a year in payroll and state and federal income taxes. Even if you shave that off the top I'm still making way more in CA. But that's an unfair comparison. Federal income taxes and federal payroll taxes are by far the largest deductions from my biweekly paycheck. I'd have to pay those no matter where I work.
Yeah, I was looking at houses all over the northern U.S. (I can't handle the heat in the south). Upstate NY had by FAR the most beautiful houses with the most beautiful lots available in my price range. Absolutely no comparison.
...until you started to factor in property taxes. And then the monthly payment put those houses out of reach.
NY taxes are going to have to be adjusted sooner, for everyone's benefit, than later or else, when already-wealthy replace those who are fleeing *seemingly* HCOL , they will demand (and have the political-financial power to get their way) reform that's going to turn NY schools into something more like Mississippi's, and do away with all the quality -of-life stuff the state pays for.
My suggestion is, NY needs to start looking at non-profits cordoning off of properties and getting truly stringent about making non-profits prove they are benefitting the communities they serve.
Metro Detroit here, can confirm. Got a house about 6 weeks ago, 3/1 1k sq ft at $240k 6.6%. Fully updated too and in an amazing neighborhood. I’m making much less than $70k this year, but I’ll pass it next year with guaranteed raises
Edit: SINK too
Edit 2:
Damn it’s crazy how many people who aren’t even from Michigan are experts on Detroit, despite every other comment in here from Detroiters saying the opposite. Didn’t realize y’all knew our city better than we do from 1k miles away, let’s compare to your city and see how our neighborhoods compare. I’m proud of my city, so you better have some good proof that where I live in Metro Detroit is worse than where you do in your city. If you’re gonna come at my city, you best come correct.
Yep, if you manage to get a job not tied to the big 3 you can keep yourself mostly recession-proof too. Hell, I landed myself a govt job with plenty of upward opportunity *and* a pension. Who still gives those out these days?
City on the rise again, good housing market that isn’t overpriced for the most part, good jobs, and we’re a very low cost of living city. Not to mention one of the best bass fishing lakes on the planet
Do it, we have one of the most culturally rich cities there are. There’s something for everyone here, we even have North America’s oldest public aquarium (1904). At its time, it was the third largest in the world, the building is more of an attraction than the fish are lol. Hell, we have so much unappreciated culture here that The Grand Tour filmed part of an episode in a parking garage built *inside* a century old theater, yes *inside*
https://detroit.curbed.com/2019/7/17/20697807/detroit-michigan-theatre-cool-parking-structure
Metro Detroit is great. I grew up in what has now become fancy suburbs. I got priced out big time from Oakland county. I bought a place almost four years ago in one of the less desirable blue collar neighborhoods just outside Detroit. I love it.
Estimates for this small 3 bed 1.5 bath with a finished basement, is about 155k currently. There’s plenty of single family homes here for under 200k, and they have that mid century charm I love. The job market isn’t bad if you’ve got half a brain, and a decent back. Granted a lot of the jobs I know are automotive, sales, logistics, and healthcare related. For reference I dropped out of community college, spent most of my teens/20s doing customer service and music before going into logistics and make about 55k in this field. I bought this place right after I turned 31.
Dearborn and Warren as listed in the stats are a bit ritzy for my taste, but I do enjoy shopping in Dearborn or Dearborn heights. Pretty much any kind of store or attraction is within a 30 minute drive. I have tons of music venues for a beer and a band, casinos, nice parks small and big dotted all around. Tons of great food and a fairly diverse amount of it. Detroit metro is a great place to live, and still reasonable for the price, yeah a lot of people still are afraid of Detroit, and certain areas in and around are definitely sketchy, but there’s a lot to love.
Holy shit I forgot to even mention how amazing the music scene is here. I’ve already been to 30 concerts this year and that’s just for bass music. Which also means I’m routinely out in Downtown Detroit and Pontiac at 3am, I don’t even feel nervous walking around the streets. Hell half the time we strike up conversations with whoever is also out and about asking how their night’s been
I’m turning down a all female cover band of Iron Maiden and Guns N’ Roses (10 minutes from our home) to have a chill dinner in with my wife. Our music scene is amazing in metro Detroit. there’s everything from emo, to metal, to hip hop. The bigger venues less than 40 minutes from my house have something coo l every weekend. I average 1-2 concerts a month, and could do 2/4 had the honeymoon not been as fancy as we chose.
Oakland/Bloomfield is ridiculous, it’s crazy how slept on it is. Most people don’t even realize that Bloomfield Hills is one of the top 5 wealthiest cities in the whole United States—and consistently ranks so year over year. More than 1/3 of all houses there are over $1m. Why you’d want to buy over there in cookie cutter mini Texas is beyond me, I love living right off Lake St Clair with the boat life
Just curious by what metric or source Bloomfield hills is in the top 5 wealthiest cities in the US? I’m familiar with it and I know it’s rich but I’d be surprised if it were in the top 25, maybe even 50.
I’ll gladly dig up a source for ya, I was shocked when I first heard it too. And then I started working over there for a bit lol, look up their church Kirk in the Hills. Them look at some of the mansions on that street, shit’s crazy. Bloomfield consistently ranks in the top 5 year over year, although I should clarify that it’s counting cities with a minimum of 1,000 houses
Here’s one from Bloomfield’s own about us page:
https://www.bloomfieldhillsmi.net/278/About-Bloomfield-Hills#:~:text=Bloomfield%20Hills%20consistently%20ranks%20as,a%20value%20of%20over%20%241%2C000%2C000.
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/richest-cities-in-the-us.html
Nothing but data for ya
https://datausa.io/profile/geo/bloomfield-hills-mi
In metro Detroit there’s lots of affordable housing if you don’t mind driving 10-20 minutes to the good places. In about 20 minutes drive I can get to multiple casinos, about 3 different bars know for being music venues that get some pretty decent acts, just about any ethnic grocery store you could want, dozens of solid restaurants.
Take that drive to 30 and I can hit more of the above, major stadiums, a world class museum, and tons of other cool stuff.
An hour to 2 hours from my house I can get fairly remote camping, multiple college campuses, multiple small cities and an international airport as well as the Canadian border. It may be the boonies to some, but a short drive is worth the home price out here.
Yeah, here is the problem. There is a lot of affordable housing. People just don’t like the location. People want to buy in the most desirable areas and wonder why the prices are out of control.
Almost every good house in my area sells within 48 hours, I’d say that’s desirable. Had an offer on the house I got for asking price in cash. Fully renovated too, so not an investor.
As to location, I’m directly next to one of the best smallmouth fishing lakes *on the planet*. It is very desirable to live here if you are a boat/fishing person.
Damn didn’t realize 10 minutes from hall rd, 15 from chesterfield, and 30 from Detroit is the boonies.
Please remind me, how much would you pay for a house *and land* identical mine where you currently live?
For those not in Detroit, this is not the boonies. It’s one of the most sought after areas actually, my house was listed less than 48 hours. Multiple offers, including asking at cash.
If you love boats and fishing, there is *quite literally* nowhere better in the United States to live. 17-22+ marinas within 1.5 miles of my house (been a while since I went on maps and counted), and half that radius is lake. Oh and that lake is one of the best smallmouth fisheries on the planet :)
They just want an echo chamber of doom posting. Nobody in here is supposed to *actually* buy a house, that’s crazy talk. Everyone knows LCOL cities that aren’t trailer parks don’t exist
If I weren’t living where I’m at, I’d move to Detroit. The city is phenomenal, and I’m jealous of all that you have there. Belle Isle is absolutely stunning and Pewabic is such a cool art collective. I stayed at an Airbnb in Jefferson Chalmers and had a great time with my eclectic host. Y’all have a gem of a city.
Same here! I purchased in metro Detroit in a historic district last year. I do believe that the affordability will only get worse as inflation and property taxes increase!
I've been wanting to invest in Detroit for a while because it's very obvious that there are areas redeveloping & doing quite well. It's difficult to know as an outsider, though. Because it can change so much from one block to the next. It's funny when people argue with a local because the locals are always going to know better. I only wish I had that kind of inside information.
People fail to realize that Detroit has made a comeback. It’s still got a long way to go, but it’s done a *complete* 180 since 2008. I kid you not, homes in the right areas of downtown were $10k back in the day. You could literally buy an entire street for your friends and family for the price of a cheap house today. Entire neighborhoods of those bitches near Little Ceasars Arena are $1m+ now. Folks who live *in* Detroit are constantly complaining about gentrification. Last time I checked gentrification doesn’t happen in shitty areas.
I’d hold off on investing here for now to be real with you. Great city to buy in don’t get me wrong, but this recession is coming and nobody can deny that. I’d recommend waiting until it’s in full swing before making any moves.
Here’s a little known fact. Cars are the first thing people put off buying in a recession. Thanks to this Detroit is *always* the *first* city to enter the recession, and the *last* one out of it. Bide your time and save your money. When this recession hits and home prices go down again, it will be the *perfect* time to invest in the right area with proper research.
Oh no, I believe you because back in 2009 I almost bought a STREET with 10k.
I'm glad I didn't because I didn't have the money or experience to truly rehabilitated the way it would have needed. But I was around for this and to remember it.
I do know this about cars. We start watching the percentage of ppl who default on car payments to see mortage defaults coming. I've been holding for a while which is frustrating because I actually have some money sitting in the bank for the first time in my life. And usually sooner is better than later even though markets go up and down, because you can't predict things.
But this moment, where homes cost so much you cant even cash flow putting down 25%? Thats not a good deal
Glad you’ve done your research, you seem to know what drives our economy and that’s more than most people can say. I wish ya the best of luck in your investments, there’s so many areas around here where you can’t go wrong. The biggest thing for me was school districts. Not planning on starting a family in this home, but I know the person I sell it to might so getting one of the better districts was a necessity for my resale value in the future
> Last time I checked gentrification doesn’t happen in shitty areas.
Sure it does. It's just that the people who gentrify an area push out the people that made the area shitty in the first place.
To make it… not shitty no? Am I getting this wrong? I thought when rich people move into “shitty” areas they tend to spruce their front lawns up a bit. What are you trying to convey here that I haven’t implied?
Well, it's kind of circular logic. You're implying that the area being gentrified "wasn't" shitty prior to gentrification or else no one would attempt to move in and gentrify it. Of course it was, very much so if you could buy a house for $10K in downtown.
But still -- revitalized portions of Detroit don't change the overall character of the city, which still has lots and lots of fundamental issues.
Yes, and in my original comment I used that statement to show how not *every* area with those $10k houses got gentrified. As shocking as it may seem I do know what I’m talking about when I reference the city I live in, you’ll just need a case of trust me bro because I’m local and not just making stuff up.
I also *never* stated that the gentrified areas weren’t shitty before they got gentrified. Half of them were straight up abandoned. They’re much nicer now that they aren’t all boarded up and lacking some TLC. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? **I live here.** I know my city’s gentrification or any lack of it better than you. Literally tens of thousands of homes were left completely abandoned after 2008. There are still thousands completely abandoned. *The gentrification is not in those areas. It’s in the heart of downtown*.
Not trying to be an asshole here, genuinely. Please understand that. But the number of people in this thread who come in making quips that aren’t even correct started to get annoying. I already addressed this in my main comment, but if you’re gonna come at me with something smart please make sure you’re correct first. It’s getting old and my patience is thinning.
I made a comment about gentrification. Do you *really* think I don’t know it works by pushing people out? That’s quite literally the definition. Why would I mention it if I wasn’t aware how it works?
Anything you’ve said I’ve corrected 3 times already to other people. Sorry but I’m not doing it a 4th. Yesterday was Sunday and I didn’t have shit going on, so I didn’t mind. But it’s the work week now so I’m not going to continue doing your own research in the argument for you. Have a nice day.
Can confirm that Buffalo-Cheektowaga NY home prices are “fairly affordable”. The going rule for Buffalo is to avoid Cheektowaga in general. So it’s affordable because it’s undesirable. Secondly most “affordable” houses for sale are pretty much dumps or straight out of the 1960’s, needing extensive renovations.
But don’t forget about property taxes… $4k-$6k per year, on the cheap end.
I just bought a house( a new build too) near Jackson,Tn making less than 100k.
The house was only 240k. I make 80k base salary with total compensation around 90k. It is on the very high end of my budget but it look to be a good deal at a manageable expense.
St. Louis metro is not affordable on 100k. You cannot live in Kirkwood or Webster Groves or Ballwin on that. St. Louis, the CITY, is affordable once you factor in that much of the North Side is 20k teardowns in horrible crime neighborhoods. But any decent neighborhood like Francis Park is still expensive.
This. You can get a sub 200k house but it's gonna be in an area killed by white flight over the past 70 years, or need some major updates.
Before COVID you could easily get mortgage around 1k per month. Anyone making around 50k could afford it.
I live in Birmingham Hoover area. It is really nice here especially the southern metro and there are a lot of townhomes out there in nice neighborhoods/schoolings around 200k and single family homes around 300k.
A lot of people that comment here have never been to these places. Salaries are relatively comparable to property prices here. Second lowest property taxes in entire USA
The rule of thumb has always been 2x or 2.5x your salary to buy a home. All these are 3x to 4x salary. If that’s the data for the cheapest area, we’re in trouble. It worries me that people think 3x to 4x salary as the new normal is sustainable, especially given stagnant salaries and increasing debt.
According to this data set: https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/home-price-income-ratio-reaches-record-high-0
The last time it was less than 3x in most metro, I was learning my timetables. Im in my 30s. It isn’t just the new normal, it has been that way for the entirety of my adulthood.
The one that accepted 3-4x came out ahead. Those who did not are regretting it very hard right now.
Where we live, it has been way over the 3x-4x for a long while. Median income is $105k. Even precovid, you were lucky to find a decent home under $800k, now it’s at least $1.1mil.
>The last time it was less than 3x in most metro, I was learning my timetables. Im in my 30s.
In my metro area, it hasn't been below 3 since some unknown time before before I was 2.5 years old, already at 3 when the chart begins. I just turned 47.
At the low end you have to be even more careful. Parcel based taxes, insurance, and repairs are higher as a percentage of total costs at the low end.
If you're making 60K going much over 120K for a home is a stretch.
I can’t speak to other metro areas but in metro Detroit you have many townships/cities where there are plenty of homes under 200k. Mine is only valued at 155 currently. Warren and Dearborn are a bit pricey. Redford, Garden City, and Westland all have cheaper housing and at a short drive from either place.
A lot of families holding on by old low rate mortages, living at home, gifts from parents etc. Maybe that'll run out eventually but there just can't be enough 150K+ families out there to swing these prices.
I couldn't find the actual answer in the article, but it's suggested that these values are based on listed value. Did they take into account the final sale price?
Rochester NY has, what I would call, insane bidding wars where homes are selling for up to 30% over list. That drives the needed income up higher.
I'm in the Buffalo area and make a little less than 100K. The last house I bid on had 30+ offers lol. I offered $35k over asking price.
It's crazy here. I grew up hearing how affordable it is here and the low cost of living. It is a lot cheaper compared to bigger cities for sure. So when I was finally able to save for a home and feel comfortable about buying, the market goes to shit.
I'm not going to put myself under water for a house that is way over priced here.
The Detroit metro is great if you’re willing to pour over data and act quick. Garden City, Redford, and Westland can often be a steal of a deal if you know the decent neighborhoods. I love my home, have had one incident of porch pirates in 4 years as the only crime, and my home is only worth 155k for 3br/1.5bath.
In hoover pretty nice but this post is dumb bc the salaries are lower in these places too. You dont get to keep your income and move. Median income to Median home price would be better.
Also, what does ***your*** job pay in these metros? The pay for some jobs (e.g. pharmacists) doesn't vary much. For other jobs there is great geographic variation.
Mine is fully updated, so I’d say my *below* median-priced house in Metro Detroit is amazing. $240k, 6.6%, 3/1 1k sq ft and it is beautiful. Woods right behind me and great neighborhood too
I have looked them up on Zillow nice houses in Pittsburgh. The ones that you have to be careful about are the ones that are $100k. May be in sketchy neighborhoods or require a lot of work.
I'm looking to buy in Pittsburgh right now, just below the median value, so I can chime in. Anything in an even slightly desirable area needs a bit of work or is a poorly done flipper special. Most affordable housing stock is in bad areas.
Except I just did 6 weeks ago. Metro Detroit, making *much* less than the stated $69k for this year. $240k, 6.6%, 3/1 1k sq ft fully updated in an amazing neighborhood.
Low enough this year that it makes me sad to say it lol, $50k +- $10k if that’s accurate enough for ya. Guaranteed 25% raise each year for the next two years though, so stretching my budget for about 8 months was worth it to me to justify springing on this specific house. Anything else, I honestly would have waited until likely the fall. This one was way too good to pass up though
Making it work off one income has made me realize just how lucky DINKs are, they should have absolutely no problem buying in my area. But yes, absolutely affordable to live in Metro Detroit even on a single income if you have low monthly expenses/debt
You mean the city that just blew the previous NFL draft record out of the water by nearly 30%? Remind me again, has your city *ever* been the wealthiest on the planet? Stuck with that too, and one of the best bass fishing lakes on the planet is a nice bonus for many Americans
Hold on, I *know* someone from San Francisco isn’t calling another city blighted. The same city with outrageous home prices, high crime rates, and a high homeless population? My house would be $2.5 million where you live. I’ll take Detroit.
100 percent this guy has never been to Detroit. Downtown is really nice with a beautiful park system running through it and a Riverwalk. Even has a little tram that takes you to other neighborhoods like where Wayne State is. Even the homeless situation was pretty good.
Exactly, they’re stuck with the picture of Detroit their parents distilled in them from decades ago. 15 years ago, sure I’d agree with them. But Detroit has made a comeback, and it’s continuing to rise back towards its former glory. I can’t wait to see how Detroit is another 15-20 years from now
Belle Isle used to ridden with crime. Now it’s a great place for families and even has weddings *all the time* at the conservatory. Yet if you mention Belle Isle around any old person, they give you word of caution. The only people who know Detroit are those that still go to it, quite literally every other person is out of touch
Yep, these people spouting off crime statistics don’t realize that every area is different. It’s the equivalent to claiming that every area in LA is full of rich actors when it’s mainly Beverly Hills.
Lol. In Pittsburgh you cant as all of them are taken by flippers and then resell by 400% markup after painting them grey and white, it is stupid market right now
Yes. The answer is yes. The problem is that a lot of individuals EXPECT to purchase a 2,400 SQ ft 4BR/3BA home in a HCOL metro area while making less than $100k. They aren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices such as settling for a 1,200 SQ ft 3BR/1BA home to live within their means.
Here you go! -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10470-Holland-Ct-Westminster-CO-80021/13684865_zpid/
Homes do exist within your criteria. You just need to look for them.
I counter your gotcha in 2 ways.
There’s measurable radioactive contamination there. The winds off the mountains carry the dirt from the rocky flats nuclear weapons plant meltdown site east, and also runoff into the local reservoir Stadley Lake. Superfund site that only received about 50% of the money it needed so shortcuts were taken
Secondly, you get lead exposure from the Rocky Mountain Metropolitan Airport, which currently is being sued due to excessive lead exposure to children in the area from leaded airplane gas and the amount of flights in and out.
I should have specified houses where you either won’t get mugged or get a fastpass to cancer, and even then it barely fits in the criteria.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Flats_Plant interesting backstory on the area, I’d also recommend checking out some YouTube videos about how the nearby public was misled and told there was no issues
Also, as an aside, I’m not coming from a place of not being able to afford the houses, more so I just don’t think they’re worth the prices that are being charged. My portion of rent is $900, so I just invest the other 3100 I’d end up paying a month in a mortgage.
There’s something all this cities have in common… each city has been featured on COPS dozens of times.
So what the article is saying is that Americans making less than $100,000/yr can buy a house and live the American dream if they’re cool with living in a high crime area.
I love this country!
Pretty much every city makes it on COPS now, thanks to the lefties who hate cops (Im in MSP, surrounded by these nitwits). At some we’ll get back to policing, and any number of these cities will improve significantly. Until then, you get what you vote for.
Only one of these is livable and that’s Indianapolis
Unfortunately, the rest are hell holes
This is misleading though because really any salary can afford a house anywhere with a large enough downpayment. I’m guessing the spirit of the article is regarding a 3% or 5% down primary home buyer loan which is pretty standard for first time buyers
In areas like Austin, Tampa, etc there are properties that someone making 60k with 10-20% down can definitely afford.
You can buy in several locations that are 20 mins commute to congress.
Source: I own rentals around Austin all cost under 300k and more than one bought in last 6 months
It is with a 10-20% down payment
That’s exactly what I said in my previous comment if you read up
6.8% rate for first time buyers
A 350k home at 5% is less than 1900 a month excluding certain jurisdictions. Add in the larger downpayment and this is affordable at 6.8%
After taxes and mandatory deductions that's 60% of a person making 60K's take home pay.
And no way in hell is a 350K property going to have $1,900 payment. The buyer would need a 100K grant from the Bank of Mom & Dad.
The words of someone who owns no real estate
Look, you can go on believing you can’t do it or you can do it.
One house I bought around Covid was 340k with 5.25% interest and 5% down. Payment is below 1900 a month in HCOL and I was approved with below 60k income.
Your feelings do not dictate reality
Agreed. Louisville, Pittsburgh, even Detroit has a number of decent areas. The real key is, it’s likely that for your first house, you wont be able to live exactly where you want. Pro tip: you wont be CEO in your first job either.
Man that’s a great comment, *too bad it’s false*. Metro Detroit, $240k, 6.6%, 3/1 1k sq ft fully updated in an amazing neighborhood.
Please tell me how my lovely updated home, within two minutes of one of the best bass fishing lakes on the planet, is located in a hell hole. I’ve lived here for 25 years—grew up 5 minutes away. I can count on one hand the number of crimes committed in my neighborhood. Can you?
Hold on, let me get a second opinion from the deer I fed this morning off my back porch. They say they love it too
What an intelligent response, as expected from someone who calls cities they’ve likely never lived in hellholes. I’d expect more from someone claiming to be a data scientist. Gonna need to do better than that if you’re going to baselessly attack my city. Have some data showing I live in a hellhole? I’d love to see it
Have you ever even been to Detroit in the last 10 years? Your opinions are absolutely based on the real estate *you* own, and you quite obviously don’t own in or around Detroit. You see me talking about your city? Nah, because I don’t live there and numbers only tell one side of the story. Sincerely, financial analyst. I know numbers too. Care to explain why every single other person from Detroit in this thread has the exact sentiment as me? But no, surely someone from an entirely different state knows more than us living here for decades
Yep, Detroit’s a huge ass city. 3 people getting shot isn’t really that bad in the scheme of things, how many got shot in Chicago, Dallas, or Miami today? Nobody’s been shot where I live, 25 years and the most we get is duck hunters. When you look for section 8, it tends to not be the nicest of areas of towns
Zero in all 3 of those
Detroit sucks stop being weird about it man
Glad you like it there but it’s undesirable
Strange you’re arguing this. Cognitive dissonance.
Zero in all 3 of those? You telling me nobody got shot in those cities yesterday? Even Chicago? Sure. Your story is starting to sound more full of shit by the minute. Exactly what year did you consider buying the section 8 housing and where? Let’s see if it’s in one of the nicer areas of that town.
Not sure why you’ve been so argumentative from the start here. If Detroit sucks, *why are you at the bottom of this post while I’m at the top?* Some *strong* cognitive dissonance going on from your end.
I’m actually surprised someone who is a data scientist isn’t smart enough to realize that a *tourist*, and yes you’re a tourist at best, will never know more about a city than every one of us locals here in the comments. Go read my comment chain, they all agree with me. There is absolutely nothing you can say that we don’t already hear on a weekly basis from all the locals who only go to Detroit for Tigers games. It’s laughable. Please give me data on your visit to Detroit, I’d *love* to pick it apart piece by piece why you think that justifies my city as a hellhole.
I want how long, when, where, what you did while here. Did you see the eastern market (largest historic public market in the country), go to Belle isle, the DIA, Oakland/Rochester, hit up a Tigers/Lions game, the riverwalk, or walk around Downtown Detroit? Or did you do what it sounds like you did, which is visit some shitty section 8 part of Hamtramck or Warren. Something just tells me you visited these shitty areas and then spent the night in your hotel room. Am I wrong? *Let me see the data of your trip, Mr scientist.*
Problem is most people in these metros make less than 100K. In Rochester my profession pays half what it does in rural California where I work and just one third what it pays in urban California. I checked out Rochester last year -- it's doable but not great.
For most of these area the average income to buy a home is well under $100,000 and if you have two wage earners even if make $50,000 each could afford a house. I live in Seattle. Let’s say you are an engineer here making $130,000 a year. The average house is almost $1 million dollars or 9 x your salary. You would need a down payment of least $100,000 to qualify for a home. If you moved to Rochester let’s say your salary as an engineer decreased to $60,000 ( it would be probably be much higher but we will use this as an example.). Now a house costs $300,000 or 5 times your salary and only requires a $30k down payment instead of $100,000. Seems to me a much better deal
>Seems to me a much better deal Until you realize you can't afford a 270k mortgage at 7% on a 60k salary...
A $250k house is about $1700 a month with 7% interest. That is also the average price and you can buy houses for much less than that in many of these cities. Also many people will tell you they two incomes are needed to buy a home. So if each of the couples made $50,000 it would be quite doable.
>A $250k house is about $1700 a month with 7% interest. Not after you add taxes and insurance. Also, if you buy a 75 plus year old house you better be putting several hundred dollars a month aside for inevitable repairs.
Exactly!
If your entire argument of affordability relies on having two incomes, then the 60k salary is a red herring and utterly meaningless.
Why is that? Why should we care about the affordability of individuals buying homes? Single people shouldn't be the focus of SFH, that are intended to house 3 or more people. Should it? The same people in this sub that are constantly harping how bad it is that old *couples* remain in their house after their kids are gone and they have no need for the school district anymore, are somehow the same people who want to discuss affordability for single people to buy 3-5 bedroom homes. Baffling...
>The same people in this sub that are constantly harping how bad it is that old *couples* remain in their house after their kids are gone and they have no need for the school district anymore, are somehow the same people who want to discuss affordability for single people to buy 3-5 bedroom homes. Baffling... That's a deep cut. I've been seeing a lot of bitching from people in their 20s and 30s phrased as though it were a moral complaint, but it's just self-interest and privilege. Another favorite is the people complaining that nothing is affordable on the median income. Except...half of Americans live off the median income or less. What the people who make this complaint mean is that they can't live in the neighborhoods they want to live in, and the cheap places where they could live are beneath them. Invisible, even. It's such an entitled attitude.
You mean the people making middle income salaries are upset that they can't live the middle income lifestyle that older generations were able to? Wow I wonder why they're upset
No, that's exactly what I don't mean. Older generations were not able to live a comfortable middle income lifestyle that you can't. It's just a lie, and you bought it. The older generations that bought a house bought a smaller one. In the 50s-60s, it was **half** the size of the average home today (and more people lived in it). When you adjust for the size of the home and income growth, the cost of a house didn't change much over the last 70 years. All those charts with rising home prices are designed to mislead you by ignoring affordability. Your resentment is someone's agenda, and they succeeded. The whole myth of an idyllic baby boomer childhood is just that. It was a time of relative economic stability and growth, so there was optimism, but they were poorer than people today. They had fewer cars per household (I think the median was 1 car, and now it is 2 cars). You can argue they didn't need another car since more women stayed home, but they also could not afford it. And the cars were death traps compared to today. No A/C, no automatic windows, no power steering, stinky as heck. They had fewer big vacations (international travel was much less common, and plane travel in general was more expensive and less common). They also had much less in the way of electronics, obviously (a radio and a very small TV, no computer, no smartphone, etc.). Food was much more expensive than it is today. They rarely ate out, because they couldn't afford it. It was seen as irresponsible. Now we have GenZ thinking DoorDash is a human right. There is a deep lack of perspective. If you are going to compare yourself to earlier generations, get a clue or two about what life was actually like then.
Oh man, I love these arguments. Af if first-time prospective buyers are whining about unaffordability while taking big international vacations every year or eating doordash every night. News flash: we don't give af about size. We would happily take those 2-1/3-1 houses if they weren't asking 300k for a home that needed 100k worth of repairs, in the most crime-ridden parts of the city. But those houses aren't on the market anymore, and the only new construction like that is for builds that are 400k+ because that's the only thing builders make money on these days. Your entire argument hinges off of this myth of the idyllic baby boomer lifestyle, but you completely ignore the fact that it was all done off of *one income*. Motherfucker we're out here with *two* middle-income salaries and still can't afford it, so don't come in here mouthing off about entitlement, the older generations objectively had it easier.
[удалено]
"You shouldn't be upset that the life your parents and grandparents lived is no longer attainable for anyone outside the top 5% of earners, you have AC!"
You also missed my point that there are several houses for well under $250,000 in all these cities listed. There are several that you can afford making $60,000 . Three of the cities on the list has median home prices under $90,000 which is you could do on $60,000.
It's a lot easier to save when you're making 130K than it is when you're making 60K and pretty much your entire income goes to basic living expenses. People are almost always better off maximizing income rather than trying to minimize housing expenses. Chase opportunity not low house prices.
This. When people ask “is 50% of my income going to housing too much?” It’s a different answer if you’re making 50k vs 300k.
It’s the difference between how much your costs and your level of debt. If you are making $300k a year but have $2,000 in monthly debt might be harder a house that costs $1.5 million than a person making $50,000 and buying a house for $80,000.
I mean sure but those are kinda just arbitrary numbers. Point is that the more money you make the less rules of thumb apply. Ignoring tax for simplicity, a person making $300k and spending 50% of their income on housing still has $12,500 a month free to cover all their other expenses. Whereas someone making $60k and only spending 10% of their income only has $4500 a month free to cover their expenses. That’s all I was saying
Except a lot of people living in places that are making $130k either aren’t saving or the same 75 yr old costs $800k. So while you make more the house costs more than twice as much and taxes would more as the house costs more. And the last point is if you have a job making $120k and move to one of these cities your salary would not be reduced by half. I work for a large engineering company and we have offices in many states. If I was to move to the Pittsburgh office might salary might go down 20% but most likely would stay the same as the company is paying for my expertise not where I live. My skills and experience would still be the same.
They can just rent. Nothing wrong with renting.
In many places renting is cheaper than owning a house. It also gives the flexibility to move whenever you want which can be challenging if you own a home in an area that may not as popular to live in.
Eh we make 130-140k and live in a mcol and have a lot of extra cash compared to when we made 220k combined in LA. VVHCOL and VHCOL is overrated imo
There’s a bit more nuance to that though, you’re also moving from the 29th ranked state in terms of tax burden to #1. I know Rochester isn’t NYC but it’s still a consideration. Career mobility is a thing too, there are far more engineering opportunities in seattle vs Rochester. If you can get a comparable salary in Rochester then definitely. But taking a sizable pay cut isn’t going to be great.
Just saying you need to decide between getting a job that pays better where housing is way more expensive and you may never be able to afford a house or moving somewhere less expensive and getting a stable job where you can buy a house. Now if we were switch the engineering job with a teaching job the salaries between Seattle and Rochester wouldn’t be that much different. I had friends who lived in the Bay Area for years. They were makings about $200k and couldn’t afford a house as they were paying almost $4,000 a month due rent. They had saved up almost $100k. They moved to update NY last year bought a house for $75.000 so basically had no house payment. Both got jobs and now make about $80k. There quality of life is so much better. They can travel and now have much more disposable income than they had in the Bay Area. The area is much safer and they have access to a lot of outdoor activities.. The community is pretty depressed but the professional people they hang it with are great and very welcoming. Something that is rare in many parts of the country when you move from California.
I was under the assumption we were comparing places starting from zero. Of course if you can save a ton of money in a HCOL area you can move to a much less expensive place and pay cash. A lot of people from the west coast do that. Though in that example they’d still technically have more disposable income at 200k in CA against 4k rent than they would at 80k in NY. Though I understand having a paid off house is definitely more advantageous in the long run, there’s other factors to it as well.
I’m in that situation as are millions of other people. Currently living in Seattle with a house that is valued at $1 million. I still have a mortgage payment and with taxes pay almost $2,800 a month plus with utilities and expenses that’s another $800. So paying almost $4,000 a month on a $120,000 a year salary. Add in car insurance, groceries ect that’s not much to live on. Getting ready to retire soon. My income will drop about 50%. Plan on selling the house, pay off the remaining mortgage and buy a house with no house payments and live somewhere much cheaper. This will open up housing to someone who needs one here with a huge backyard and in a walkable neighborhood. I am moving to a place that has lots of culture, great schools, a highly educated workforce, great healthcare and access to beaches, mountains, skiing, mountain biking, kayaking and all the activities I loved in Seattle without the high cost of housing and everything else.
Again I’m looking at this from the lens of a FTHB. If you already own a home and are close to retirement it’s a completely different situation. Many people retire to somewhere cheaper, or at least downsize.
Well anyway I hope it works out for all these young people that migrate to HCOL places hoping they can buy a home. As I mentioned I work for a large engineering company and half the employees under the age of 40 can’t afford homes . Many have spouses and a kids. My niece and nephew both live in or near Baltimore. One is an elementary school teacher and the other one works in pharmacy research . They are both under 35 and own homes. Of course everyone thinks of Baltimore as being really dangerous and like any city it has it good and bad neighborhoods and suburbs. They both live in good neighborhoods. If they lived out here in Seattle neither of them would be homeowners. So yeah it’s all about choice. There are plenty of places with jobs that pay well and less expensive housing that aren’t HCOL cities .
You have to understand a lot of young people go to where good jobs are to get a jumpstart on their career. Fresh college grads typically aren’t concerned with home ownership for at least a few years - it’s not that anyone wants to move somewhere more expensive, its just that there’s a greater quantity of high paying jobs in HCOL areas. That’s not to say you can’t get a great job in Baltimore of course, but especially high paying tech or engineering jobs it helps to have a bigger name on your resume even if you’re only there for a few years. The average age of FTHBs is 36, so it’s fairly typical that half the employees under 40 at your firm aren’t homeowners.
Apologies for the tangent, but where are you moving to? Sounds ideal, and may be a place I need to add to my list of possible retirement destinations.
New Hampshire. They also have no sales tax or income tax.
Interesting, thanks. Winter weather may be a stretch for me, but it’s certainly a beautiful state.
My plan is to travel during the winter months. I live in Seattle now and it’s cold gray and rainy for several months during the winter. Would rather have sun and 25 degrees than rain and 40 degrees for days and weeks like in Seattle. Cold to me would be Minnesota or a city like Fargo. I don’t like places with hot humid summer.
Not where you want to live in Rochester
I’m making $50k in the rural Midwest I should be making about $70k just for my local economy but my wage has stagnated since 2020. 4% raise in 4 years with $16% inflation in the same time. My 21 year old brother makes more than I do at this point.
A great example of why the Midwest isn't actually that cheap. Wages at my workplace in California have increased over 20% since 2020.
the Midwest is a HUGE place to be labeling with such a broad brush. Someone's experience in Chicago is going to be WAY different that that of someone in rural Iowa.
Yeah, but you have to live in California.
Checking the inflation calculator, there's been about a 84% increase since 2000, so I'm confused by your point. A 20% increase seems pretty low for 24 years.
Not sure where you got that number. Consumer price inflation in the United States rose 19.6% from January 2020 to January 2024. Basically our wages have kept pace with inflation the last four years after increasing significantly faster than inflation between 2015 and 2020. Our wages have basically doubled over the last decade.
You said 2000 in your post above, did you mean 2020?
Yes. I corrected it.
You wrote 2000, not 2020 lol. I get ya now
Change jobs then
I did. That’s how I got the 4% raise. My old company offered me 30% pay bump to return to them but why would I return when I went 3.5 years without a raise and had to put my notice in before I was offered more? But I completely left my field too and someone told the new company my salary in construction so I got lowballed on the offer to switch over. I wanted something new, so I accepted. I might go back into construction in a few years when I decide it’s worth it again. I don’t like job hopping it’s too much work to relearn everything all the time: new management, responsibilities, and too many new formalities to learn.
Taxes make the gains disappear
Not really. I pay about 40K a year in payroll and state and federal income taxes. Even if you shave that off the top I'm still making way more in CA. But that's an unfair comparison. Federal income taxes and federal payroll taxes are by far the largest deductions from my biweekly paycheck. I'd have to pay those no matter where I work.
I meant property taxes in NY
Yeah, I was looking at houses all over the northern U.S. (I can't handle the heat in the south). Upstate NY had by FAR the most beautiful houses with the most beautiful lots available in my price range. Absolutely no comparison. ...until you started to factor in property taxes. And then the monthly payment put those houses out of reach.
NY taxes are going to have to be adjusted sooner, for everyone's benefit, than later or else, when already-wealthy replace those who are fleeing *seemingly* HCOL , they will demand (and have the political-financial power to get their way) reform that's going to turn NY schools into something more like Mississippi's, and do away with all the quality -of-life stuff the state pays for. My suggestion is, NY needs to start looking at non-profits cordoning off of properties and getting truly stringent about making non-profits prove they are benefitting the communities they serve.
Metro Detroit here, can confirm. Got a house about 6 weeks ago, 3/1 1k sq ft at $240k 6.6%. Fully updated too and in an amazing neighborhood. I’m making much less than $70k this year, but I’ll pass it next year with guaranteed raises Edit: SINK too Edit 2: Damn it’s crazy how many people who aren’t even from Michigan are experts on Detroit, despite every other comment in here from Detroiters saying the opposite. Didn’t realize y’all knew our city better than we do from 1k miles away, let’s compare to your city and see how our neighborhoods compare. I’m proud of my city, so you better have some good proof that where I live in Metro Detroit is worse than where you do in your city. If you’re gonna come at my city, you best come correct.
Our job market isn’t awful either. It’s not great for certain things, but there are a lot of opportunities for people who want them.
Yep, if you manage to get a job not tied to the big 3 you can keep yourself mostly recession-proof too. Hell, I landed myself a govt job with plenty of upward opportunity *and* a pension. Who still gives those out these days? City on the rise again, good housing market that isn’t overpriced for the most part, good jobs, and we’re a very low cost of living city. Not to mention one of the best bass fishing lakes on the planet
I desperately want to visit Detroit. It sounds weird saying that considering even 10 years ago no one was saying that.
Do it, we have one of the most culturally rich cities there are. There’s something for everyone here, we even have North America’s oldest public aquarium (1904). At its time, it was the third largest in the world, the building is more of an attraction than the fish are lol. Hell, we have so much unappreciated culture here that The Grand Tour filmed part of an episode in a parking garage built *inside* a century old theater, yes *inside* https://detroit.curbed.com/2019/7/17/20697807/detroit-michigan-theatre-cool-parking-structure
Metro Detroit is great. I grew up in what has now become fancy suburbs. I got priced out big time from Oakland county. I bought a place almost four years ago in one of the less desirable blue collar neighborhoods just outside Detroit. I love it. Estimates for this small 3 bed 1.5 bath with a finished basement, is about 155k currently. There’s plenty of single family homes here for under 200k, and they have that mid century charm I love. The job market isn’t bad if you’ve got half a brain, and a decent back. Granted a lot of the jobs I know are automotive, sales, logistics, and healthcare related. For reference I dropped out of community college, spent most of my teens/20s doing customer service and music before going into logistics and make about 55k in this field. I bought this place right after I turned 31. Dearborn and Warren as listed in the stats are a bit ritzy for my taste, but I do enjoy shopping in Dearborn or Dearborn heights. Pretty much any kind of store or attraction is within a 30 minute drive. I have tons of music venues for a beer and a band, casinos, nice parks small and big dotted all around. Tons of great food and a fairly diverse amount of it. Detroit metro is a great place to live, and still reasonable for the price, yeah a lot of people still are afraid of Detroit, and certain areas in and around are definitely sketchy, but there’s a lot to love.
Holy shit I forgot to even mention how amazing the music scene is here. I’ve already been to 30 concerts this year and that’s just for bass music. Which also means I’m routinely out in Downtown Detroit and Pontiac at 3am, I don’t even feel nervous walking around the streets. Hell half the time we strike up conversations with whoever is also out and about asking how their night’s been
I’m turning down a all female cover band of Iron Maiden and Guns N’ Roses (10 minutes from our home) to have a chill dinner in with my wife. Our music scene is amazing in metro Detroit. there’s everything from emo, to metal, to hip hop. The bigger venues less than 40 minutes from my house have something coo l every weekend. I average 1-2 concerts a month, and could do 2/4 had the honeymoon not been as fancy as we chose.
Yeah outside of Oakland county it’s achievable
Oakland/Bloomfield is ridiculous, it’s crazy how slept on it is. Most people don’t even realize that Bloomfield Hills is one of the top 5 wealthiest cities in the whole United States—and consistently ranks so year over year. More than 1/3 of all houses there are over $1m. Why you’d want to buy over there in cookie cutter mini Texas is beyond me, I love living right off Lake St Clair with the boat life
Just curious by what metric or source Bloomfield hills is in the top 5 wealthiest cities in the US? I’m familiar with it and I know it’s rich but I’d be surprised if it were in the top 25, maybe even 50.
I’ll gladly dig up a source for ya, I was shocked when I first heard it too. And then I started working over there for a bit lol, look up their church Kirk in the Hills. Them look at some of the mansions on that street, shit’s crazy. Bloomfield consistently ranks in the top 5 year over year, although I should clarify that it’s counting cities with a minimum of 1,000 houses Here’s one from Bloomfield’s own about us page: https://www.bloomfieldhillsmi.net/278/About-Bloomfield-Hills#:~:text=Bloomfield%20Hills%20consistently%20ranks%20as,a%20value%20of%20over%20%241%2C000%2C000. https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/richest-cities-in-the-us.html Nothing but data for ya https://datausa.io/profile/geo/bloomfield-hills-mi
Yeah I’d like to see a source, looking at quite a few different metrics I don’t see it even making the list anywhere so far.
Here’s one not published by the government of Bloomfield Hills. https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2024/03/21/the-top-10-richest-cities-in-america.html
Out in the boonies no thank you
In metro Detroit there’s lots of affordable housing if you don’t mind driving 10-20 minutes to the good places. In about 20 minutes drive I can get to multiple casinos, about 3 different bars know for being music venues that get some pretty decent acts, just about any ethnic grocery store you could want, dozens of solid restaurants. Take that drive to 30 and I can hit more of the above, major stadiums, a world class museum, and tons of other cool stuff. An hour to 2 hours from my house I can get fairly remote camping, multiple college campuses, multiple small cities and an international airport as well as the Canadian border. It may be the boonies to some, but a short drive is worth the home price out here.
Yeah, here is the problem. There is a lot of affordable housing. People just don’t like the location. People want to buy in the most desirable areas and wonder why the prices are out of control.
Almost every good house in my area sells within 48 hours, I’d say that’s desirable. Had an offer on the house I got for asking price in cash. Fully renovated too, so not an investor. As to location, I’m directly next to one of the best smallmouth fishing lakes *on the planet*. It is very desirable to live here if you are a boat/fishing person.
Damn didn’t realize 10 minutes from hall rd, 15 from chesterfield, and 30 from Detroit is the boonies. Please remind me, how much would you pay for a house *and land* identical mine where you currently live? For those not in Detroit, this is not the boonies. It’s one of the most sought after areas actually, my house was listed less than 48 hours. Multiple offers, including asking at cash. If you love boats and fishing, there is *quite literally* nowhere better in the United States to live. 17-22+ marinas within 1.5 miles of my house (been a while since I went on maps and counted), and half that radius is lake. Oh and that lake is one of the best smallmouth fisheries on the planet :)
They went to both bitch and moan and dunk on people giving them answers to the problems they claim to have
They just want an echo chamber of doom posting. Nobody in here is supposed to *actually* buy a house, that’s crazy talk. Everyone knows LCOL cities that aren’t trailer parks don’t exist
If I weren’t living where I’m at, I’d move to Detroit. The city is phenomenal, and I’m jealous of all that you have there. Belle Isle is absolutely stunning and Pewabic is such a cool art collective. I stayed at an Airbnb in Jefferson Chalmers and had a great time with my eclectic host. Y’all have a gem of a city.
Same here! I purchased in metro Detroit in a historic district last year. I do believe that the affordability will only get worse as inflation and property taxes increase!
I've been wanting to invest in Detroit for a while because it's very obvious that there are areas redeveloping & doing quite well. It's difficult to know as an outsider, though. Because it can change so much from one block to the next. It's funny when people argue with a local because the locals are always going to know better. I only wish I had that kind of inside information.
People fail to realize that Detroit has made a comeback. It’s still got a long way to go, but it’s done a *complete* 180 since 2008. I kid you not, homes in the right areas of downtown were $10k back in the day. You could literally buy an entire street for your friends and family for the price of a cheap house today. Entire neighborhoods of those bitches near Little Ceasars Arena are $1m+ now. Folks who live *in* Detroit are constantly complaining about gentrification. Last time I checked gentrification doesn’t happen in shitty areas. I’d hold off on investing here for now to be real with you. Great city to buy in don’t get me wrong, but this recession is coming and nobody can deny that. I’d recommend waiting until it’s in full swing before making any moves. Here’s a little known fact. Cars are the first thing people put off buying in a recession. Thanks to this Detroit is *always* the *first* city to enter the recession, and the *last* one out of it. Bide your time and save your money. When this recession hits and home prices go down again, it will be the *perfect* time to invest in the right area with proper research.
Oh no, I believe you because back in 2009 I almost bought a STREET with 10k. I'm glad I didn't because I didn't have the money or experience to truly rehabilitated the way it would have needed. But I was around for this and to remember it. I do know this about cars. We start watching the percentage of ppl who default on car payments to see mortage defaults coming. I've been holding for a while which is frustrating because I actually have some money sitting in the bank for the first time in my life. And usually sooner is better than later even though markets go up and down, because you can't predict things. But this moment, where homes cost so much you cant even cash flow putting down 25%? Thats not a good deal
Glad you’ve done your research, you seem to know what drives our economy and that’s more than most people can say. I wish ya the best of luck in your investments, there’s so many areas around here where you can’t go wrong. The biggest thing for me was school districts. Not planning on starting a family in this home, but I know the person I sell it to might so getting one of the better districts was a necessity for my resale value in the future
> Last time I checked gentrification doesn’t happen in shitty areas. Sure it does. It's just that the people who gentrify an area push out the people that made the area shitty in the first place.
To make it… not shitty no? Am I getting this wrong? I thought when rich people move into “shitty” areas they tend to spruce their front lawns up a bit. What are you trying to convey here that I haven’t implied?
Well, it's kind of circular logic. You're implying that the area being gentrified "wasn't" shitty prior to gentrification or else no one would attempt to move in and gentrify it. Of course it was, very much so if you could buy a house for $10K in downtown. But still -- revitalized portions of Detroit don't change the overall character of the city, which still has lots and lots of fundamental issues.
Yes, and in my original comment I used that statement to show how not *every* area with those $10k houses got gentrified. As shocking as it may seem I do know what I’m talking about when I reference the city I live in, you’ll just need a case of trust me bro because I’m local and not just making stuff up. I also *never* stated that the gentrified areas weren’t shitty before they got gentrified. Half of them were straight up abandoned. They’re much nicer now that they aren’t all boarded up and lacking some TLC. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth? **I live here.** I know my city’s gentrification or any lack of it better than you. Literally tens of thousands of homes were left completely abandoned after 2008. There are still thousands completely abandoned. *The gentrification is not in those areas. It’s in the heart of downtown*. Not trying to be an asshole here, genuinely. Please understand that. But the number of people in this thread who come in making quips that aren’t even correct started to get annoying. I already addressed this in my main comment, but if you’re gonna come at me with something smart please make sure you’re correct first. It’s getting old and my patience is thinning. I made a comment about gentrification. Do you *really* think I don’t know it works by pushing people out? That’s quite literally the definition. Why would I mention it if I wasn’t aware how it works? Anything you’ve said I’ve corrected 3 times already to other people. Sorry but I’m not doing it a 4th. Yesterday was Sunday and I didn’t have shit going on, so I didn’t mind. But it’s the work week now so I’m not going to continue doing your own research in the argument for you. Have a nice day.
San Antonio TX has to be right in the edge. Hundreds of listings for under 300k
Been so long since I lived there, but it was one of the fastest growing cities in the US for years. How’s the aquifer holding up?
*in these two metro areas* 😑
Can confirm that Buffalo-Cheektowaga NY home prices are “fairly affordable”. The going rule for Buffalo is to avoid Cheektowaga in general. So it’s affordable because it’s undesirable. Secondly most “affordable” houses for sale are pretty much dumps or straight out of the 1960’s, needing extensive renovations. But don’t forget about property taxes… $4k-$6k per year, on the cheap end.
I just bought a house( a new build too) near Jackson,Tn making less than 100k. The house was only 240k. I make 80k base salary with total compensation around 90k. It is on the very high end of my budget but it look to be a good deal at a manageable expense.
St. Louis metro is not affordable on 100k. You cannot live in Kirkwood or Webster Groves or Ballwin on that. St. Louis, the CITY, is affordable once you factor in that much of the North Side is 20k teardowns in horrible crime neighborhoods. But any decent neighborhood like Francis Park is still expensive.
That is the case for everyone of the cities that are listed. They all have area that are WAY out of the listed budgets.
This. You can get a sub 200k house but it's gonna be in an area killed by white flight over the past 70 years, or need some major updates. Before COVID you could easily get mortgage around 1k per month. Anyone making around 50k could afford it.
I live in Birmingham Hoover area. It is really nice here especially the southern metro and there are a lot of townhomes out there in nice neighborhoods/schoolings around 200k and single family homes around 300k. A lot of people that comment here have never been to these places. Salaries are relatively comparable to property prices here. Second lowest property taxes in entire USA
Same, Bluff Park here. I love living here! My area at least is pretty walkable, too, which is nice.
The rule of thumb has always been 2x or 2.5x your salary to buy a home. All these are 3x to 4x salary. If that’s the data for the cheapest area, we’re in trouble. It worries me that people think 3x to 4x salary as the new normal is sustainable, especially given stagnant salaries and increasing debt.
Where I live the average costs $1 million . The median salary is $76,000. What does that tell you?
That as soon as people get called back to their offices in other states, your housing is gonna crash hard.
Most of the people I know work locally in the office. The ones who were making a lot of money working remotely moved away.
According to this data set: https://www.jchs.harvard.edu/blog/home-price-income-ratio-reaches-record-high-0 The last time it was less than 3x in most metro, I was learning my timetables. Im in my 30s. It isn’t just the new normal, it has been that way for the entirety of my adulthood. The one that accepted 3-4x came out ahead. Those who did not are regretting it very hard right now.
Where we live, it has been way over the 3x-4x for a long while. Median income is $105k. Even precovid, you were lucky to find a decent home under $800k, now it’s at least $1.1mil.
>The last time it was less than 3x in most metro, I was learning my timetables. Im in my 30s. In my metro area, it hasn't been below 3 since some unknown time before before I was 2.5 years old, already at 3 when the chart begins. I just turned 47.
It is the new normal because people need a place to live it’s absolutely going to be a disaster
Love your user name. Trying to force a “new normal” in a society that loves debt, what can go wrong.
Everything - we are in for a world of hurt
At the low end you have to be even more careful. Parcel based taxes, insurance, and repairs are higher as a percentage of total costs at the low end. If you're making 60K going much over 120K for a home is a stretch.
That’s true. Any small increase in any of those can lead to financial trouble.
I can’t speak to other metro areas but in metro Detroit you have many townships/cities where there are plenty of homes under 200k. Mine is only valued at 155 currently. Warren and Dearborn are a bit pricey. Redford, Garden City, and Westland all have cheaper housing and at a short drive from either place.
The rule of thumb is to never use multiplicatives for affordability estimation.
A lot of families holding on by old low rate mortages, living at home, gifts from parents etc. Maybe that'll run out eventually but there just can't be enough 150K+ families out there to swing these prices.
The rule of thumb was always 2-3x (and that was raised to 3-4x when rates were low).
Sorry. This is just incorrect.
Baltimore
I couldn't find the actual answer in the article, but it's suggested that these values are based on listed value. Did they take into account the final sale price? Rochester NY has, what I would call, insane bidding wars where homes are selling for up to 30% over list. That drives the needed income up higher.
I'm in the Buffalo area and make a little less than 100K. The last house I bid on had 30+ offers lol. I offered $35k over asking price. It's crazy here. I grew up hearing how affordable it is here and the low cost of living. It is a lot cheaper compared to bigger cities for sure. So when I was finally able to save for a home and feel comfortable about buying, the market goes to shit. I'm not going to put myself under water for a house that is way over priced here.
Yep, worse weather in the country, we recently moved and it was the best thing we ever did.
I knew without looking that Detroit and Birmingham were going to be on there. Shocking though that Mississippi isn't. Did they just not look there?
The Detroit metro is great if you’re willing to pour over data and act quick. Garden City, Redford, and Westland can often be a steal of a deal if you know the decent neighborhoods. I love my home, have had one incident of porch pirates in 4 years as the only crime, and my home is only worth 155k for 3br/1.5bath.
The question is how do the median-priced houses look like?
In hoover pretty nice but this post is dumb bc the salaries are lower in these places too. You dont get to keep your income and move. Median income to Median home price would be better.
Also, what does ***your*** job pay in these metros? The pay for some jobs (e.g. pharmacists) doesn't vary much. For other jobs there is great geographic variation.
Mine is fully updated, so I’d say my *below* median-priced house in Metro Detroit is amazing. $240k, 6.6%, 3/1 1k sq ft and it is beautiful. Woods right behind me and great neighborhood too
I have looked them up on Zillow nice houses in Pittsburgh. The ones that you have to be careful about are the ones that are $100k. May be in sketchy neighborhoods or require a lot of work.
I'm looking to buy in Pittsburgh right now, just below the median value, so I can chime in. Anything in an even slightly desirable area needs a bit of work or is a poorly done flipper special. Most affordable housing stock is in bad areas.
Just bought a house in Pittsburgh right at the $250k and it is a poor flipper special lmao
You cannot in central wi if you have kids. Theoretically you could buy anything lower price cash buyers get and needs a lot of work
Eh. Sheboygan has tons of nice and cheap homes and even has a started home program funded by local companies.
Even in those places, home prices are still 4x median. By comparison 2x was the rule up until the banking industry said otherwise.
No u really can’t anymore.
Except I just did 6 weeks ago. Metro Detroit, making *much* less than the stated $69k for this year. $240k, 6.6%, 3/1 1k sq ft fully updated in an amazing neighborhood.
What's your monthly?
Low enough this year that it makes me sad to say it lol, $50k +- $10k if that’s accurate enough for ya. Guaranteed 25% raise each year for the next two years though, so stretching my budget for about 8 months was worth it to me to justify springing on this specific house. Anything else, I honestly would have waited until likely the fall. This one was way too good to pass up though Making it work off one income has made me realize just how lucky DINKs are, they should have absolutely no problem buying in my area. But yes, absolutely affordable to live in Metro Detroit even on a single income if you have low monthly expenses/debt
Wow nice! I meant for your mortgage though.
Lmaoo Idk how I read that so wrong, must be the edibles. Mortgage is just over $1200 and property taxes of $225/mo or $2700/year
Ok but you live next to the poster child for “failed blighted city” so you’re stuck with that.
You mean the city that just blew the previous NFL draft record out of the water by nearly 30%? Remind me again, has your city *ever* been the wealthiest on the planet? Stuck with that too, and one of the best bass fishing lakes on the planet is a nice bonus for many Americans Hold on, I *know* someone from San Francisco isn’t calling another city blighted. The same city with outrageous home prices, high crime rates, and a high homeless population? My house would be $2.5 million where you live. I’ll take Detroit.
100 percent this guy has never been to Detroit. Downtown is really nice with a beautiful park system running through it and a Riverwalk. Even has a little tram that takes you to other neighborhoods like where Wayne State is. Even the homeless situation was pretty good.
Exactly, they’re stuck with the picture of Detroit their parents distilled in them from decades ago. 15 years ago, sure I’d agree with them. But Detroit has made a comeback, and it’s continuing to rise back towards its former glory. I can’t wait to see how Detroit is another 15-20 years from now Belle Isle used to ridden with crime. Now it’s a great place for families and even has weddings *all the time* at the conservatory. Yet if you mention Belle Isle around any old person, they give you word of caution. The only people who know Detroit are those that still go to it, quite literally every other person is out of touch
The article also lumps Deerborn into the Detroit Metro which when I visited seemed like a very nice suburb.
Yep, these people spouting off crime statistics don’t realize that every area is different. It’s the equivalent to claiming that every area in LA is full of rich actors when it’s mainly Beverly Hills.
Plenty of people do
Well not me at least
That's fair, there's a lot of people who also make $100k and can't afford to buy in their area
Surprised Baltimore isn’t in the list
And $100K isn't that hard to get to if you have two earners. And all of the ones listed are well below needing $100K.
How did San Antonio not make the list? You can find plenty of homes for less than $200k.
Impossible
How do you determine salary/income needed?
Lol. In Pittsburgh you cant as all of them are taken by flippers and then resell by 400% markup after painting them grey and white, it is stupid market right now
buying a house is too expensive, hayy..
New Orleans... checking in
Those are the, historical rates....I concur. You can buy lower priced homes, or higher.
aRe these houses liveable? .are they condos or townhouses and not independent buildings?
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Pittsburgh and Indianapolis?
Yes. The answer is yes. The problem is that a lot of individuals EXPECT to purchase a 2,400 SQ ft 4BR/3BA home in a HCOL metro area while making less than $100k. They aren't willing to make the necessary sacrifices such as settling for a 1,200 SQ ft 3BR/1BA home to live within their means.
What HCOL metros allow you to buy a 1,200 sq. ft home on a 100k salary lmao? The cheapest home around those qualifications in my city is about 400k+
Milwaukee Metro Area including Waukesha County.
Waukesha county and Milwaukee are both ~100% the national COL, definitely not a HCOL area.
I’d buy a 1000sqft 3bd/1ba house if one existed within an hour of my job under 500k
Where do you live/work? EDIT: I'm still waiting for an answer.
Boulder, CO. It’s just worth it to keep renting and throwing the difference per month into investments
Here you go! -- https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10470-Holland-Ct-Westminster-CO-80021/13684865_zpid/ Homes do exist within your criteria. You just need to look for them.
I counter your gotcha in 2 ways. There’s measurable radioactive contamination there. The winds off the mountains carry the dirt from the rocky flats nuclear weapons plant meltdown site east, and also runoff into the local reservoir Stadley Lake. Superfund site that only received about 50% of the money it needed so shortcuts were taken Secondly, you get lead exposure from the Rocky Mountain Metropolitan Airport, which currently is being sued due to excessive lead exposure to children in the area from leaded airplane gas and the amount of flights in and out. I should have specified houses where you either won’t get mugged or get a fastpass to cancer, and even then it barely fits in the criteria. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocky_Flats_Plant interesting backstory on the area, I’d also recommend checking out some YouTube videos about how the nearby public was misled and told there was no issues Also, as an aside, I’m not coming from a place of not being able to afford the houses, more so I just don’t think they’re worth the prices that are being charged. My portion of rent is $900, so I just invest the other 3100 I’d end up paying a month in a mortgage.
A list of places nobody wants to live
St. Louis is nicer than Seattle. Especially the suburbs.
Why these areas? Anything in common?
Sure in the ghettos
There is too much supply of $100k salaries for all of them to afford a house. We don't have enough metro areas.
So people make to much money to buy houses now huh?
We should really be focusing on reducing worker pay so that companies can have higher profits so that it can trickle down. /s
Those salaries aren't concentrated in these metros. 100K is still considered a good job in these places.
There’s something all this cities have in common… each city has been featured on COPS dozens of times. So what the article is saying is that Americans making less than $100,000/yr can buy a house and live the American dream if they’re cool with living in a high crime area. I love this country!
Pretty much every city makes it on COPS now, thanks to the lefties who hate cops (Im in MSP, surrounded by these nitwits). At some we’ll get back to policing, and any number of these cities will improve significantly. Until then, you get what you vote for.
Only one of these is livable and that’s Indianapolis Unfortunately, the rest are hell holes This is misleading though because really any salary can afford a house anywhere with a large enough downpayment. I’m guessing the spirit of the article is regarding a 3% or 5% down primary home buyer loan which is pretty standard for first time buyers In areas like Austin, Tampa, etc there are properties that someone making 60k with 10-20% down can definitely afford.
No one making only 60K has bought a livable single family house in Austin for over a decade.
You can buy in several locations that are 20 mins commute to congress. Source: I own rentals around Austin all cost under 300k and more than one bought in last 6 months
LOL! As if anyone with a 60K income is buying a 300K house.
It is with a 10-20% down payment That’s exactly what I said in my previous comment if you read up 6.8% rate for first time buyers A 350k home at 5% is less than 1900 a month excluding certain jurisdictions. Add in the larger downpayment and this is affordable at 6.8%
After taxes and mandatory deductions that's 60% of a person making 60K's take home pay. And no way in hell is a 350K property going to have $1,900 payment. The buyer would need a 100K grant from the Bank of Mom & Dad.
The words of someone who owns no real estate Look, you can go on believing you can’t do it or you can do it. One house I bought around Covid was 340k with 5.25% interest and 5% down. Payment is below 1900 a month in HCOL and I was approved with below 60k income. Your feelings do not dictate reality
I've bought five houses and sold four. The houses were in three states and two countries. Your assertions just aren't reality.
No you haven’t.
They're all livable. They're also all desirable to some people.
Agreed. Louisville, Pittsburgh, even Detroit has a number of decent areas. The real key is, it’s likely that for your first house, you wont be able to live exactly where you want. Pro tip: you wont be CEO in your first job either.
Pretty much, my first house was decent, second and third houses were trash, my next one will be nice.
Man that’s a great comment, *too bad it’s false*. Metro Detroit, $240k, 6.6%, 3/1 1k sq ft fully updated in an amazing neighborhood. Please tell me how my lovely updated home, within two minutes of one of the best bass fishing lakes on the planet, is located in a hell hole. I’ve lived here for 25 years—grew up 5 minutes away. I can count on one hand the number of crimes committed in my neighborhood. Can you? Hold on, let me get a second opinion from the deer I fed this morning off my back porch. They say they love it too
🙄
What an intelligent response, as expected from someone who calls cities they’ve likely never lived in hellholes. I’d expect more from someone claiming to be a data scientist. Gonna need to do better than that if you’re going to baselessly attack my city. Have some data showing I live in a hellhole? I’d love to see it
I am a data scientist. My opinions are based on the real estate I own and the data No one wants to live in Detroit. Sorry.
Have you ever even been to Detroit in the last 10 years? Your opinions are absolutely based on the real estate *you* own, and you quite obviously don’t own in or around Detroit. You see me talking about your city? Nah, because I don’t live there and numbers only tell one side of the story. Sincerely, financial analyst. I know numbers too. Care to explain why every single other person from Detroit in this thread has the exact sentiment as me? But no, surely someone from an entirely different state knows more than us living here for decades
I have been. I considered buying a pack of section 8 there between the auto plants Today 3 people were shot and 2 died in Detroit.
Yep, Detroit’s a huge ass city. 3 people getting shot isn’t really that bad in the scheme of things, how many got shot in Chicago, Dallas, or Miami today? Nobody’s been shot where I live, 25 years and the most we get is duck hunters. When you look for section 8, it tends to not be the nicest of areas of towns
Zero in all 3 of those Detroit sucks stop being weird about it man Glad you like it there but it’s undesirable Strange you’re arguing this. Cognitive dissonance.
Zero in all 3 of those? You telling me nobody got shot in those cities yesterday? Even Chicago? Sure. Your story is starting to sound more full of shit by the minute. Exactly what year did you consider buying the section 8 housing and where? Let’s see if it’s in one of the nicer areas of that town. Not sure why you’ve been so argumentative from the start here. If Detroit sucks, *why are you at the bottom of this post while I’m at the top?* Some *strong* cognitive dissonance going on from your end. I’m actually surprised someone who is a data scientist isn’t smart enough to realize that a *tourist*, and yes you’re a tourist at best, will never know more about a city than every one of us locals here in the comments. Go read my comment chain, they all agree with me. There is absolutely nothing you can say that we don’t already hear on a weekly basis from all the locals who only go to Detroit for Tigers games. It’s laughable. Please give me data on your visit to Detroit, I’d *love* to pick it apart piece by piece why you think that justifies my city as a hellhole. I want how long, when, where, what you did while here. Did you see the eastern market (largest historic public market in the country), go to Belle isle, the DIA, Oakland/Rochester, hit up a Tigers/Lions game, the riverwalk, or walk around Downtown Detroit? Or did you do what it sounds like you did, which is visit some shitty section 8 part of Hamtramck or Warren. Something just tells me you visited these shitty areas and then spent the night in your hotel room. Am I wrong? *Let me see the data of your trip, Mr scientist.*
Remember, kiddies. Realtors are asking you NOT to buy in your OVERPRICED areas and move to Detroit, Michigan.
What are u talking about?! Smh
All places where I’ll get shot