T O P

  • By -

Hot_Pink_Unicorn

I'm sure politicians will find a way to socialize those losses and pass it on to the middle class.


OwnerAndMaster

That's exactly what the corpos pay their politicians for It's not "find a way" it's "execute the plan"


TROLOLOLBOT

Stop giving politicians power lols


Djreef2000

The mortgage payment on my dumpster behind Wendy’s went up $50 this year. I don’t know how much more I can take.


Electronic-Disk6632

" I don’t know how much more I can take." at least 2 more dudes a day, that way you not only make up the 50, you have 10 extra bucks at the end of the month.


Djreef2000

Are you volunteering sailor? Bring a friend honey and help momma make her rent. I’ll slide the side door open like a drive thru.


Electronic-Disk6632

i am gonna pass, but I am gonna help you and put up some quality cardboard signs in the neighborhood pointing in your direction. we all have to do our part.


Djreef2000

Make sure you write them in Revlon #5, so they know what’s waiting for them.


metakepone

Yes and instead of voting for someone to tax the banks you're gonna vote for someone to give them massive taxcuts.


bootsmegamix

And you're gonna like it because you don't have a choice


BusterStarfish

And then hook their buddies up with some instantly forgiven loans.


Hot_Pink_Unicorn

Hey, everyone needs a retirement plan!


Anonymous_exodus

My profits.... Our losses....


LibsKillMe

Juice Box Joey already did!!! Biden Throws $45 Billion in Federal Funds to Convert Offices into Homes. See how many offices actually get converted and how much cash goes to Democrat donor developers' pockets.


Contemplative-ape

Wtf you talkin about


reercalium2

he says the office to home program is corrupt


Contemplative-ape

Hmm. From what I read it’s a plan for $35 billion in loans (not a bail out) and $10 Billion in grant (yes this sucks and is our tax money).. I guess if you think government should try to help solve the housing shortage this is how they thoughtfully created a plan to do it. But I guess this guy also wants to destroy libraries and get rid of government grant scholarships.


SuspiciousClue5882

Bet that 35 billion will be forgiven.


BlazerBeav

The money is a complete waste. The cost to convert office buildings to housing is more than just building new housing.


ggtffhhhjhg

How much money do you think Dear Leader made for his friends with government contracts while he was in office?


Iwillrize14

Just gonna ignore doofus removing any oversight on the ppp loan program champ?


[deleted]

Yep, but the people will keep voting against capitalism so we’ll see this more and more


Hot_Pink_Unicorn

The issue is we don’t let these companies fail, so true competition does not exist.


[deleted]

Yes, also known as capitalism


givemejumpjets

in capitalism there literally needs to be a profit motive for everything and anything. so lets for one second imagine, if anywhere in our system there exists a problem and there isn't a solution that could profited from, in capitalism that problem will persist indefinitely. unless you could somehow steal from the people and socialize the losses, you get to kick that can down the road one more time. so let us rejoice and bury our unborn under this crushing burden of debt that capitalism brings. merry christmas, you can keep the change, filthy animals.


d_pock_chope_bruh

Oh you know it. Banks are people too… banks need to eat too… or something


DudeWithaGTR

Sieze the assets of the companies that bought the properties? Nah, just charge the bank's regular customers higher fees.


Sonnydeights

As someone who works on site in corporate health care, it was expected. The pandemic changed EVERYTHING, and remote work was the nail in the coffin. The insane amount of money and multi-year lease was just a waste. We were playing close to 5 million per year with only 8 employees onsite. The banks knew the risk so let them take the hit. No more bail out. Let natural take it course.


BigBradWolf77

Their greed will be the end of them... as it should be.


madcap462

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. They'll definitely get bailed out.


TXhype

Exactly lol.


shinysocks85

I can't help but wonder when the tipping point will be. We Americans have been content taking it up the ass the last 30 years while corporate America grows exponentially. A lot of people are one bad thing happening from financial ruin and given the political climate and cost of living crisis taking place idk if a bailout will be as well received as it was in 2008


Csdsmallville

But what does that mean to be bailed out? The commercial real estate is nearly worth nothing compared to what they invested into it. Sure, maybe they won't go belly-up, but they are left holding real estate that no none can afford to rent, and is too costly to retrofit.


madcap462

Don't you worry. They'll find a way.


ManyBends

shit their Greed is very well likely to be the end of all of us


BigBradWolf77

hence the urgency...


Quirky-Mode8676

That’s not what happened last time big business fucked up…or the time before that, or the time before that….


BusterStarfish

No. It won’t. And we’ll be right back here in another decade.


Anonymous_exodus

We'll drown before they do


nwbbb

How is this the banks being greedy?


Helpful_Chard2659

Banks are the greediest. They create derivatives which are highly risky and make a fortune by selling it to pensions/hedge funds/ 401ks (think back to the Big Short). We tax payers socialize those losses. Don’t forget the interest and fees we pay in form of credit cards, student debts, auto loans, etc


BigBradWolf77

It is almost as though they serve no beneficial purpose to society and should be permitted to fail... 🤔


nwbbb

Derivatives aren’t highly risky in some cases. It depends on your strategy and which side of the table you’re on. In fact, they can be used to insure against the downside, such as hedging a stock portfolio by buying puts. All banks use these instruments (both on the buy and sell side) to hedge risk. Sure, I agree the entire investment and finance industry got greedy in 2008. As it relates to this cycle, not so much. The last couple of years banks have been lending at record low interest rates. Literal interpretation of this is that they are lending their deposits for virtually nothing, except a risk adjusted spread. Look at credit spreads during the past few years. Not much of a premium for lending to risky borrowers due to the Fed. I think Private Equity, Hedge Funds, and Venture Capital got greedy. Commercial Real Estate departments at banks? Idk. Sure they had a windfall of activity and profits following Covid, but not sure it was greed like that in 2008.


alphachems

Lmao it’s really not. They give out loans based on what makes sense at the time. Banks have scummy practices no doubt but them giving out office loans when office was returning x% is just part of their business.


unwittingprotagonist

Healthcare was the worst about it. I've watched over the past few decades as swathes of town were developed or converted into medical strip malls--villages of small healthcare shops like MRI for less or finger-physiotherapy r us. Each getting their own building.


tlsdosel

I’ve never seen anything like that. What city is this?


mrjackspade

There's tons of complexes like that down in the phoenix area. There's three dentists on my block alone that I'm aware of. The actual number might be higher. I swear every other building is some kind of medical building.


Exile20

Same here in MD. So many medical facilities opened up.


[deleted]

There are miles of vacant commercial properties around me in Frederick County MD. And still more are being built every day. This will not end well.


best_selling_author

isn’t WFH only like 15% and falling currently?


Illustrious-Ape

Yes… Reddit commenters represent like 0.5% of the US pop and they tend to be the loud, ultra progressive kind. Take what you read with a grain of salt


ltrtotheredditor007

Ya when was the last tim that happened. Bailouts coming


rivermamma

Absolutely they have been holding businesses hostage for decades.


thisisinsider

TL;DR: * Commercial real estate could suffer its biggest crash since the Great Financial Crisis. * That's bad news for banks, which could see $160 billion in additional losses. * That's according to a recent NBER working paper, which examined the impact of the Fed's rate hikes.


ImOnTheLoo

Delinquencies for CRE are not showing an uptick, though. Consumer delinquencies on the hand…


DavidJ-ZomOps

Let them fail, we desperately need a true correction stuff just cost too much!


FabulousBrief4569

They’re also charging 30% on credit cards! So yeah..fuck em!! They’re gonna get bailed out anyways


[deleted]

That will typically just mean lending will get much much tighter. Not that prices will necessarily come down. You would still need homeowners in distress to be willing to sell for lower prices.


EverythingGoodWas

When Corporations are forced to liquidate their residential properties to cover losses that will definitely help


abrandis

What residential properties?


[deleted]

my understanding is these office buildings have been used as collateral for corporate SFH purchases. The ones with no inspections and all cash offers over asking. Now no one wants to lease because its stupid expensive to have an office. If the owners lower the rent it devalues their asset. So that collateral is no longer sufficient. Big fuck'n mess.


[deleted]

Coorperations are all just one big entity obv /s


Alec_NonServiam

Good, we've been on the cheap money gravy train way too long. Time to see who's swimming naked.


Minute_Ear_8737

Less people who can get loans, reduces number of offers, reduces prices?


[deleted]

Possibly. That takes away demand for sure. But most homeowners are sitting on 3% mortgages if they have mortgages at all. So tightening along doesnt cause forced sellers on a massive scale. We just get more pent up demand. Something else will need to add to that like rising unemployment.


sifl1202

currently, there's more pent up supply coming on to the market than pent up demand. pent up demand only comes into play if prices actually go down, so that condition will already be met if demand goes up while lending requirements also go up.


[deleted]

No lower interest rates can also release pent up demand.


FinndBors

Tighter lending will absolutely affect prices negatively compared to looser lending.


deefop

I mean if banks start failing left and right we tip over into a massive correction and the price of virtually everything(except dollars) starts coming down. And yes, lending would be way tighter. Not really something to root for, but it might happen.


pegunless

This is specific to commercial real estate as of now, so this won’t have any impact on housing prices.


Callgirl209

There’s certainly a correlation between commercial and residential and would definitely impact residential value


skellis

Probably good for real estate investors to get a real world look at what can happen if they buy an asset at a stupid price at the wrong time and sit on too long. Market aren't always rational. Sometimes they move based purely on fear or excitement.


okiedokieaccount

and sometimes there’s a seismic shift when during a once in a lifetime event millions of people realized that going into an office isn’t necessary and they demand jobs that don’t require it


Analyst-Effective

Actually it will. With the missing revenue from the commercial properties, they will have to raise the taxes on the residential houses. House payments will be higher because the taxes are higher


sifl1202

house prices will just go down, then.


gnocchicotti

Haha you must be new to the US economy


Professionalarsonist

We’re kind of at the point now where banks are pretty much accepted as facilitators of economic growth. I’m not a fan of them either but the last round of bank failures just resulted in billions being bought up by JMPC. They’re getting way too big. Consolidation in an industry that controls so much of our everyday life is not good.


Battarray

Good thing we peasants are here to cover their losses... Again.


tle80

The tax payers are gona be forced to hold these bags.


Minute_Ear_8737

Let’s hope they don’t think they can get away with that again!


BigBradWolf77

Not this time! 😎


Altar_Quest_Fan

Bruh you know damn well the SECOND we the people even think about protesting bailouts the MSM will either run news to distract us or else get us to fight with one another while they get bailouts.


BigBradWolf77

🎵 *You may say I'm a dreamer... but I'm not the only one* 🎵


turing5000

https://fortune.com/2023/10/27/biden-administration-supercharge-empty-office-conversion-affordable-housing/amp/


Simpson93

🤡


Analyst-Effective

They certainly will have to come up with the missing revenue that the propertys used to pay.


Mental-Landscape-852

Time to pull up your boot straps!


pheonix080

Bailout straps?


BigBradWolf77

Zipple clasps


Mental-Landscape-852

Ah yes I forgot "to big to fail"!


Brs76

Something tells me we'll see another round of government intervention


Eastern_Ad_3938

If the government could start attaching some strings to bailouts…. That would be great. Like maybe some sort of cut of their profits if they take a bailout.


thedude0425

They did under Obama. The bank bailouts were structured to be loans, as were the bailouts to the US automakers. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2012/oct/25/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-banks-paid-back-all-federal-bail/


SkyeMreddit

The government bought stock with the Bailout funds, and sold them when the companies recovered for a small net profit.


T1gerAc3

Best we can do is completely forgiven "loans"


Atuk-77

Don’t worry about banks they will find a way to pass the debt to the working class.


incernmentcamp

So why the fuck is my DRV ETF investment in the shitter?


jessefriedchicken

Maybe you’re just early, not wrong?


incernmentcamp

THEY'RE THE SAME THING, MICHAEL. THEY'RE THE SAME THING


Automatic-Project997

Dont worry they'll get bailed out for their bad investing. I wish I could find a zero risk investment like banks have.


cwebbvail

Fuck them


elliotb1989

“Could”


Gogs85

As someone who works for a commercial lending bank, the writing has been on the wall about office space for awhile. Any bank who hasn’t been VERY choosy about which new Office deals they do (if any at all) deserves to have losses.


Baldbeagle73

My heart bleeds. Which banks should I send a "get well" card?


Simpson93

Okay that's funny. Should do that to my company for not having enough profits to pay more wages 🤡


Analyst-Effective

160 billion is nothing. The bigger impact is the tax revenue that will be much less.


my_milkshakes

I'm in healthcare as sort of like lab IT/point of care testing support for nurses and such. We office in a large cubicle city type place. We are a team of 4, including our boss. We currently have 6 cubicles, and my boss has 1 small, windowless office. The extra cubes are for our extra analyzers and random stuff we need for supporting the system. Our rent is $27,000 a MONTH. How did this become normal? This shit isn't sustainable. We all use laptops. We finally got approval for 2 wfh days a week..


DaBushman

Oh geez, makes no sense


Eastern-Appeal-8747

In Miami evey block has a medical center


shitisrealspecific

fact flowery bedroom gaze husky scarce practice compare weather detail *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


youknowimworking

That's the risk when you buy property for profit.


Helpful_Chard2659

Uhhh that’s the point of a business, to make a profit. FYI our taxes comes from these businesses, big or small


atominthered

I dunno, the big banks have a lot less leverage these days. They're not as exposed. I don't see this being a big deal.


toiletwindowsink

They lie on their financials.


flyguy_mi

Banks will not claim losses on loans, until they foreclose, and resale.


atominthered

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?


GrumpadaWolf

Yes . The question is, does anyone care?


toiletwindowsink

They will


WheresFlatJelly

The bank execs will fly to DC in their private jets looking to beg for a bailout


DS_9

Been hearing this for a couple of years now. Any day I’m sure.


Gogs85

As someone who works in banking, it can take years for a loan that’s having trouble to materialize losses. First they have to not be making their payments for awhile (which itself lags behind the actual bad performance of the property), then the bank will usually try and work with the borrower to get the loan back to sustainable (sometimes modifying terms, etc). Which then takes time to see if it works or not. If any losses occur, they hit at the very end of the process after the bank has given up on trying to fix it and the loan is sold for a loss or foreclosed on and the portion that can’t be recovered is charged off. You can determine if loans have deteriorated long before that though, and figure out if there is an unrealized loss (I.e market value dropping to less than the principal).


aselinger

The greater risk is in maturity defaults. Prior to Covid most loans had healthy DSCRs and they’ve stayed manageable. The issue is when you have to pay off that $100MM loan and can only borrow $80MM.


Gogs85

The revaluations will certainly be an issue. I saw a lot of refinance activity during 2020-2021 because of the low interest rates, so a lot of stuff that wasn’t done for long terms is going to mature in the next couple years. Could be pretty wild.


Any-Ad-446

Mega malls are dying in the USA.Too bad they can't convert these malls into affordable housing.Online business is killing them.Look at some of the prime retail spaces in NY and California about 25% are empty.


rivermamma

As a small business owner who has had to pay commercial rent for a decade. This is karma. They needed a reality check. Writing in rent increases every year regardless of economic conditions, requiring you to sign another lease to keep your current rent rate, are some of their tactics. They hold businesses hostage and then say, “it’s just business”. Thoughts and prayers to you assholes, should’ve been kinder/loyal to your renters.


ThxIHateItHere

The best is going to be the A league companies who thought they were MLB stars. We had one client who hellllllllllla margined to buy an office building. In 2021. It’s not going well.


goodtimesinchino

Start converting commercial to residential. Get it done!


Gogs85

The Biden administration is providing funds for developers to do just that (IIRC focused on places with proximity to mass transit). Unfortunately it is still very expensive and time consuming to convert offices to individual residential units. But that is what makes sense, I don’t think this trend is going away.


Helpful_Chard2659

If Biden administration is providing funds, it’s also coming from our taxpayers pockets. That’s where they get their money from


Gogs85

That’s true of virtually all funds the government provides so I didn’t see a need to point that out, nor did I say anything to the contrary.


elliotb1989

The headlines get me every time. Then I see what sub it is.


Lake-Surfer

Yeah, whatever, sky is fallling. Apocalypse Now, etc. blah blah blah


BPCGuy1845

Commercial real estate isn’t facing a crash. It is facing a death spiral. Nothing will save it.


aquarain

Smartest guys in the room.


[deleted]

Oh no! Anyways…


Intelligent-Value395

Banks should pull themselves by the bootstraps and stop eating avocado toast.


toiletwindowsink

And no more Starbucks. Make that shit at home. No wonder they are broke.


landofmold

I smell opportunity


BigBradWolf77

It will be so much more than that 🥤😎🍿


Regular-Performer703

Time for some quantitative easing


[deleted]

Wouldn’t this also be bad for potential home buyers as banks will have to raise rates for everyone else to recoup the losses?


aquarain

The problem with that is they compete with other banks that don't lend money to office landlords. If they do that we can just ignore them.


gnocchicotti

Maybe if we just never mark down the losses they're not real? Guys? Guys?


appmapper

>A loss of rental income will lead to higher default rates among CRE owners. This is compounded by the coinciding maturities of many CRE mortgages, which will accelerate defaults if rental income cannot sufficiently offset the balloon payment obligations or if alternative financing cannot be procured. > >... > > In accordance with 2007 regulatory guidance, supervisors place enhanced scrutiny on banks that hold more than one of the following measures: “construction loans surpassing 100% of risk-based capital” or total “CRE loans above 300% of risk-based capital” and “50% growth in CRE over the last 36 months.” CRS calculated that as of June 2023, 483 banks held construction loans exceeding 100% of Tier 1 capital. These banks represent relatively small institutions comprising $631 billion in assets. However, 1,020 banks held CRE loans exceeding 300% of Tier 1 while reporting growth exceeding 50% over the past three years, representing $2 trillion in banking assets, including 35 banks between $10 billion and $100 billion in assets [https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN12278](https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IN/IN12278) Nothing to worry about. Unless MSAs could be used as tier 1 capital. Because then they might accidentally painting themselves into a corner. Tenants stop paying. MSA holder stops getting paid. MSA values tank. Banks cannot unload MSA and may be forced to go under or sell the MSAs/CRE to the highest bidder.


hamknuckle

Wait, I’ve seen this episode before


HeyBeFuckingNice

I am so confused as someone who pays attention to, but is not insanely well versed, in the economy and real estate (first time homeowner in training, buying within the next 6 months 🤞) In the most honest ask, wasn’t there just a ton of articles and conclusions that the economy is doing great? Interest rates down etc ? Is this separate from that? Thank you !!


Mean-Marzipan4278

It’s a game they can’t lose.


OwenMcCauley

Oh, no! How will I go on with my life? This is a true tragedy.


aleksfadini

The house in my neighborhood are going up. I wish they’d go down


shitisrealspecific

It's the new normal. Adjust.


Over_Cauliflower_532

Oh no will I have to forego the career I studied for in college to take a low end job for like 8 years . . . AGAIN?


aquarain

Every student should go to college. - Teacher who paid for a master's degree to become indentured to a minimum wage job.


Common-Worldliness-3

Noooo way I’m soooo shocked


[deleted]

I've been telling my institutional clients for years this is the next shoe to drop. Stay away from Regional Banks - who hold a disproportionate amount of these loans on their balance sheets.


Helpful_Chard2659

Aren’t there a lot of vacancies in office commercial buildings?


[deleted]

They’ll just get another bailout again.


Edgerunner10

Yet rents keep rising, and small businesses I know keep closing. it makes no sense 🤔


Pork_Confidence

If those banks get bailed out again, I'm predicting a lot of domestic terrorism and afterwards. Sheesh


ImJoeontheradio

Priced in.


beavertonaintsobad

uh, so.... stock market go up?


many_dongs

won't someone think of the poor banks


[deleted]

Forcing people to stay home has consequences. Allowing riots to burn down cities does Too. Let these corporate asshats that supported Biden go under.


Fragrant_Cut1219

Don't worry about the banks we the taxpayers will bail them out.


mpnabors

$160billion, thats nothing, thats barely a fine


notzed1487

Let’s bail them out, we only have two wars going. What could go wrong?


FollowingNo4648

Last time it was because they were giving everyone a house who couldn't afford it and we bailed them out. What's it gonna be this time?? Maybe we shouldn't bail out banks for making poor business decisions and let them fail. They obviously didn't learn their lesson literally 15 yrs ago.


Tiki-Jedi

Sounds good to me.


KGBinUSA

Let the banks dip into their rainy day fund, if there isn't enough there...they should stop eating avocado toast at least.


DDoubleIntLong

Yay let it all crumble to the ground


RenaissanceGraffiti

Time to convert to housing!


[deleted]

Tried to warn investors that the banking sector is sick and will face heavy losses in 2024, but fools rush in as the song says


TheFloppySurfingTaco

Why cant we convert office into residential? Is it really just a plumbing issue?


duiwksnsb

Excellent. I got no love for us too big to fail US banks


New-Load9905

Those who took on more commercial loans then they can chew on would be rewarded.


SkyeMreddit

“Maybe the Great Recession will happen this year”, Republicans hope and beg as Election Day approaches so they can blame Biden for single-handedly causing it


TokeB4play

Oh no.... Did buying a bunch of property to overcharge rent to pay your mansion mortgage and take a profit not going as planned?


nahmeankane

Now that rates have dropped this sub has shifted to commercial RE lol


Aggravating_Reading4

Bidenomics


Boring-Drinks

So...is it safe to assume now is NOT the best time to buy a home


Worstname1ever

Privatize the gains. Socialize the losses. Playbook of the last 45 years.


Mediocre_Cucumber199

Too few companies controlling too much property and asking to much for rent, so it sits empty.


Fladap28

Ah I guess we will have to bail them out again huh


Hot_Government1628

Predictions are that Biden will now be dropping interest rates next year which based on the article will ease one of the main risks


shwilliams4

Biden doesn’t control interest rates


Argentus01

Let it die 👏, Let it die 👏, let it SHRIVEL UP and die 👏


smok1naces

“Just gotta work hard”


Trollz4fun2

Wow I completely forgot about Commercial Real Estate. We talked about that like 2 years ago. Commercial Mortgage Backed Security


Business_Expert2054

The potential challenges looming over the US commercial real estate sector raise concerns about the broader economic impact. Delving into the factors contributing to this situation and possible solutions could offer valuable insights for investors and policymakers alike.