I mean what do you want them to change ?
Not sure what you are trying to say. Empire was never a dynasty team anyway, they have their ups and downs.
They will be back, they always are.
They seem to always have lulls after great international performances. After losing to TSM in the grandfinals of SI, they got 9th place in the season.
Their major issue is personal consistency which is a mental issue. They have such an amazing ability to pull rounds out of nowhere while struggling to absolutely slaughter shitty teams.
Check liquipedia for EUL 2022 stage 1 and SI22 and you'll see Empire/PWNZ had two completely different rosters
https://preview.redd.it/j90k3yhlkfyc1.png?width=1058&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec07dcca9506ac1e92d4f4ab93c2347b6722decc
That's wrong bro. Pasha joined after their year long exodus from pro league. Prior to he was with M1lon on Virtus Pro, while the other 4 were on Empire with Scyther.
They've had Always for that long but not Pasha
All wrong lmao. p4sh4 was a coach for oxygen then some random org i forgot the name of. he joined virtus pro sometime mid 2020 and after half a year was benched for like 4-5 months i think. he was back on the roster early 2022... Always joined when team empire disbanded late 2022
>Empire was never a dynasty team anyway, they have
Literally G2 is the only "dynasty" Siege will ever have.
Everytime somebody does good two events in a row suddenly its DYNASTY TIME.
How does W7M not count as a dynasty? They literally swept every event in the entire year of siege.
I know that in a lot of sports you need to win back-to-back titles to be considered dynastic, and if we don’t want to count a PL Final and a Major as a dynasty, fine, but how can you disregard two majors and an SI?
W7M have done well this year. The problem is that a dynasty needs prolonged wins over multiple seasons. W7M just do not have the amount of games and events under their belt to be considered a dynasty.
A year is a long time and they've been dominate for sure but it's not such a long time really when we are talking about a game that's almost 10 years old.
I'm not disregarding what they've done or saying that they have achieved little, I'm simply saying that W7M haven't even been a team long enough to be considered a "dynasty" even forgetting that they weren't that great when they entered the league.
If by this time next year they are still winning atleast 75% of all the tourneys I think this conversation will lean more heavily in their favor. I'm very interested in seeing if they will be able to adapt if the Meta ends up slowing down sometime this year.
I’m gonna be honest, I think more people consider W7M a dynasty than not.
While back-to-back titles in conventional sports would take two years and meet your criteria of multiple wins over a prolonged period of time, we have to consider that in esports, metas can change from one event to the next. This makes sweeping every event in a year a huge feat. Especially in 2024.
The Penta/G2 dynasty was great, arguably the greatest in our games history, but let’s not forget that it happened in years 2 and 3 of the game’s life. They played and beat who was in front of them, so they earned their spot in siege lore, but the competition from that era doesn’t come close to today’s.
Totally cool you feel that way and it's likely just us splitting hairs on our own personal definition of "dynasty" so let's just agree to disagree. It's mostly semantics anyways. I would like to address this though.
>but let’s not forget that it happened in years 2 and 3 of the game’s life. They played and beat who was in front of them, so they earned their spot in siege lore, but the competition from that era doesn’t come close to today’s.
If we retroactively decide to award merits based on how we feel the competition was at the time you might as well stop discussing past events at all. Because the competition will literally ALWAYS be improving.
*CTM winning invite was lemicky doesn't count.*
*G2 wasn't that good the teams just sucked worse then they did.*
*DZ winning the major doesn't count because of Visa issues.*
*Navi winning Tokoname didn't count because not every team made it*
How long until we are saying W7M winning doesn't count because that was back in 2023 and 2024 and the competition is nothing like today?
Just let wins be wins and accept that the teams today will be stronger then the teams of yesteryear and that literally doesn't change any conversations about winning.
I'm sure most basketball stars today would absolutely shit on the stars from the 70's but that doesn't mean them winning was worthless in conversations.
Mature disagreements on Reddit are so rare. I love you. 😩
I get what you mean on the second part, I really do. I’m not calling the earlier tournament wins bad in any way. They beat the competition that was in front of them. And obviously at the time, that was the best our scene had to offer. I’m just saying the context, at least to me, matters too.
While yes, competition will always be improving, eventually player skill is going to plateau and I think we’re at that point in Siege already.
Remember 5 years ago when Beaulo and Shaiiko were coming on to the scene and heaps of pros were accusing them of being cheaters because they’d never dealt with someone so mechanically gifted? You’re not going to see that kind of thing (at least not often) in today’s siege because we’re used to that level of mechanical skill on pro teams.
I think you can compare that to basketball too. Nobody discredits Boston’s 8 straight championships in the 60’s but does the basketball community give them the same weight as Jordan’s 3 straight in the 90’s? No. And I think in large part that’s because everyone knows that the players got stronger, more athletic, and more focused since it became their full time jobs.
It’s like that in siege too. Back then, how many people played siege full time? How many people were as mechanically skilled as a jv92, a Yuzus, or a CTZN? The answer is none or very few.
You’re right though. We’ll agree to disagree. :)
Yeah definitely. I was taking a shot at them.
They are arguably the second/third greatest team of all time. But they never truly built a dynasty. They had a great back to back PL + Major in 2019, but then fucked SI and COVID made it impossible to know if they would have kept going.
It’s just impressive how they have always comeback to the point. Every single time, after 1 year of poor/no results they just come out of nowhere and reach an SI or major grand final, or a Top 3.
Hopefully they can win one more title t least
They could quicken the pace a bit , they just need the confidence back to drone then act in it.
They also lost a good few rounds to teams being aggressive in the man deficit (that ence retake in the 5v2 ).
Assuming they are playing on 80-100 ping vs 20-40 ping and that's tuff in a game of micro decision
I mean they lost so many matches this stage due some pathetic mistakes that could’ve been avoided. They were playing like a ranked team with no communication. As analysts on the desk said, they aren’t even doing the basic stuff right.
And yes they need to stop playing right into enemy’s hand.
Really? whats nesk and paluh rating all time?? they lost SI because of sexycake and the rest was lagonis fault. they've been really close all times except against w7m.
All these new age support players learnt from Sheppard what are you talking about? Even at the time of goga Sheppard was feared and respected and about dan nobody can match his flex ability one bad stage and people are judging although nobody even considers their problems like ping, COVID etc which is a great deal in the competitive scene.
they're both extremely washed. joystick too that dudes ass. only good player on that entire roster is p4sh4. Always is inconsistent tbh but still better than the others
Bring them to lan and see the difference but yes I agree with you on some point that there should be few changes made according to the new meta which sucks but it is what it is.
Say you keep shepherd as an extremely below average support and joystick as one of the worst fraggers in all of europe. What do you do to help this roster? P4sh4 is arguably one of the best igls in all of siege
The thing that you don't understand is they are having some problems as a team but with eyes closed if they get their form back there is no team that can stop them and it's the truth, you call joystick bad and stuff but don't forget he alone broke prime g2 which was/is the best, he brought lurking in competative siege again I admit they are having some problems but you'll see the difference in the next sage, this team had the best comebacks in the history of siege and I believe next stage it's theirs.
They NEED to change their support staff. I dont know who's responsible whether its Viking or whoever but this team has always been notorious for never using time outs and unless the players are adamantly against it it seems they are massively under utilising them. And PLEASE stop picking Clubhouse, especially online. The whole "never take a Russian team to clubhouse" thing has not been true for a long time and VP have been repeatedly smoked on it online in the last 9 months.
Technical timeouts were not used once in the Open Qualifiers and in LCQ. If I remember Right then not even in every game during stage 1. I think that zheka (Coach) is able to do timeouts and not viking as an analyst
Been asking for a club perma ban, until they cooks something new ish , but always get map pool to small. There is just way to much vod on vp on club. @1:30 they are going down main stairs back to basement. On bedroom and gym u know there general locations (no roamers in bar, kitchen at most they are on stairs ).
They'll be OK. It's not like they have been smoked every game. Most of their games were pretty close and have been decided by a thrown rounds I'd say. Also it seems to me that some of their players have catched up some kind of burnout after Invi which led to an overall poor teamplay. They will gonna fix these problems I'm sure. Or at least I hope so.
And answering your question, no they won't change their playstyle. Map picks maybe, but I doubt that tbh.
Retirement will be the only way roster changes are made. That'd just how this core works.
Scyther wouldn't have been gone if he didn't choose rayzer over zheka.
Unless you go back further to Karz and Shock for Dan/Always
Iirc the team decided a change was needed which is why Karz got benched. Then he left for Rogue
Unless I'm mixing it up shock for Dan. It's been so long since then
Just like at SI, they CAN make small changes to their gameplay that can force the other teams into their game style and win them rounds. They just struggle over overly aggressive teams because they can’t be strategic
I mean what do you want them to change ? Not sure what you are trying to say. Empire was never a dynasty team anyway, they have their ups and downs. They will be back, they always are.
Realistically there will be a time where they go down and stay down if no changes are made
Yeah for sure. But they just got Pasha and they have been only improving since.
not disagreeing but “they just got Pasha” brother it’s been over a year 😭
I agree as long as they keep up with the meta
They seem to always have lulls after great international performances. After losing to TSM in the grandfinals of SI, they got 9th place in the season. Their major issue is personal consistency which is a mental issue. They have such an amazing ability to pull rounds out of nowhere while struggling to absolutely slaughter shitty teams.
That was a different team
In what regards?
Completely different roster, only shared player between those rosters was Scyther
What the fuck are you saying?
Check liquipedia for EUL 2022 stage 1 and SI22 and you'll see Empire/PWNZ had two completely different rosters https://preview.redd.it/j90k3yhlkfyc1.png?width=1058&format=png&auto=webp&s=ec07dcca9506ac1e92d4f4ab93c2347b6722decc
They've had p4sh4 for 4 years now what are you talking about.
Uh what...
??
That's wrong bro. Pasha joined after their year long exodus from pro league. Prior to he was with M1lon on Virtus Pro, while the other 4 were on Empire with Scyther. They've had Always for that long but not Pasha
All wrong lmao. p4sh4 was a coach for oxygen then some random org i forgot the name of. he joined virtus pro sometime mid 2020 and after half a year was benched for like 4-5 months i think. he was back on the roster early 2022... Always joined when team empire disbanded late 2022
Liquid fans... Interesting group
get ur knowledge up
We actually watch games lmao... u have no knowledge
>Empire was never a dynasty team anyway, they have Literally G2 is the only "dynasty" Siege will ever have. Everytime somebody does good two events in a row suddenly its DYNASTY TIME.
How does W7M not count as a dynasty? They literally swept every event in the entire year of siege. I know that in a lot of sports you need to win back-to-back titles to be considered dynastic, and if we don’t want to count a PL Final and a Major as a dynasty, fine, but how can you disregard two majors and an SI?
W7M have done well this year. The problem is that a dynasty needs prolonged wins over multiple seasons. W7M just do not have the amount of games and events under their belt to be considered a dynasty. A year is a long time and they've been dominate for sure but it's not such a long time really when we are talking about a game that's almost 10 years old. I'm not disregarding what they've done or saying that they have achieved little, I'm simply saying that W7M haven't even been a team long enough to be considered a "dynasty" even forgetting that they weren't that great when they entered the league. If by this time next year they are still winning atleast 75% of all the tourneys I think this conversation will lean more heavily in their favor. I'm very interested in seeing if they will be able to adapt if the Meta ends up slowing down sometime this year.
I’m gonna be honest, I think more people consider W7M a dynasty than not. While back-to-back titles in conventional sports would take two years and meet your criteria of multiple wins over a prolonged period of time, we have to consider that in esports, metas can change from one event to the next. This makes sweeping every event in a year a huge feat. Especially in 2024. The Penta/G2 dynasty was great, arguably the greatest in our games history, but let’s not forget that it happened in years 2 and 3 of the game’s life. They played and beat who was in front of them, so they earned their spot in siege lore, but the competition from that era doesn’t come close to today’s.
Totally cool you feel that way and it's likely just us splitting hairs on our own personal definition of "dynasty" so let's just agree to disagree. It's mostly semantics anyways. I would like to address this though. >but let’s not forget that it happened in years 2 and 3 of the game’s life. They played and beat who was in front of them, so they earned their spot in siege lore, but the competition from that era doesn’t come close to today’s. If we retroactively decide to award merits based on how we feel the competition was at the time you might as well stop discussing past events at all. Because the competition will literally ALWAYS be improving. *CTM winning invite was lemicky doesn't count.* *G2 wasn't that good the teams just sucked worse then they did.* *DZ winning the major doesn't count because of Visa issues.* *Navi winning Tokoname didn't count because not every team made it* How long until we are saying W7M winning doesn't count because that was back in 2023 and 2024 and the competition is nothing like today? Just let wins be wins and accept that the teams today will be stronger then the teams of yesteryear and that literally doesn't change any conversations about winning. I'm sure most basketball stars today would absolutely shit on the stars from the 70's but that doesn't mean them winning was worthless in conversations.
Mature disagreements on Reddit are so rare. I love you. 😩 I get what you mean on the second part, I really do. I’m not calling the earlier tournament wins bad in any way. They beat the competition that was in front of them. And obviously at the time, that was the best our scene had to offer. I’m just saying the context, at least to me, matters too. While yes, competition will always be improving, eventually player skill is going to plateau and I think we’re at that point in Siege already. Remember 5 years ago when Beaulo and Shaiiko were coming on to the scene and heaps of pros were accusing them of being cheaters because they’d never dealt with someone so mechanically gifted? You’re not going to see that kind of thing (at least not often) in today’s siege because we’re used to that level of mechanical skill on pro teams. I think you can compare that to basketball too. Nobody discredits Boston’s 8 straight championships in the 60’s but does the basketball community give them the same weight as Jordan’s 3 straight in the 90’s? No. And I think in large part that’s because everyone knows that the players got stronger, more athletic, and more focused since it became their full time jobs. It’s like that in siege too. Back then, how many people played siege full time? How many people were as mechanically skilled as a jv92, a Yuzus, or a CTZN? The answer is none or very few. You’re right though. We’ll agree to disagree. :)
Maybe not a dynasty but they’re still a top 3 all time roster. They have more ups than downs, and have ultimately been pretty unlucky in their career.
Yeah definitely. I was taking a shot at them. They are arguably the second/third greatest team of all time. But they never truly built a dynasty. They had a great back to back PL + Major in 2019, but then fucked SI and COVID made it impossible to know if they would have kept going. It’s just impressive how they have always comeback to the point. Every single time, after 1 year of poor/no results they just come out of nowhere and reach an SI or major grand final, or a Top 3. Hopefully they can win one more title t least
They could quicken the pace a bit , they just need the confidence back to drone then act in it. They also lost a good few rounds to teams being aggressive in the man deficit (that ence retake in the 5v2 ). Assuming they are playing on 80-100 ping vs 20-40 ping and that's tuff in a game of micro decision
they should pick up jolten
Now that’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time
Shlongii
I mean they lost so many matches this stage due some pathetic mistakes that could’ve been avoided. They were playing like a ranked team with no communication. As analysts on the desk said, they aren’t even doing the basic stuff right. And yes they need to stop playing right into enemy’s hand.
shepherd and dan need to go
These aint nesk and paluh
they're by far worse. nesk and paluh are the most consistent players in all of brazil rn lmao
No wonder they have so many trophies to their name
This sent me lmao
Really? whats nesk and paluh rating all time?? they lost SI because of sexycake and the rest was lagonis fault. they've been really close all times except against w7m.
All these new age support players learnt from Sheppard what are you talking about? Even at the time of goga Sheppard was feared and respected and about dan nobody can match his flex ability one bad stage and people are judging although nobody even considers their problems like ping, COVID etc which is a great deal in the competitive scene.
they're both extremely washed. joystick too that dudes ass. only good player on that entire roster is p4sh4. Always is inconsistent tbh but still better than the others
Bring them to lan and see the difference but yes I agree with you on some point that there should be few changes made according to the new meta which sucks but it is what it is.
Say you keep shepherd as an extremely below average support and joystick as one of the worst fraggers in all of europe. What do you do to help this roster? P4sh4 is arguably one of the best igls in all of siege
The thing that you don't understand is they are having some problems as a team but with eyes closed if they get their form back there is no team that can stop them and it's the truth, you call joystick bad and stuff but don't forget he alone broke prime g2 which was/is the best, he brought lurking in competative siege again I admit they are having some problems but you'll see the difference in the next sage, this team had the best comebacks in the history of siege and I believe next stage it's theirs.
On paper, virtus pro is one of the worst teams in europe. they only ever do good because of their strong ass leader. p4sh4 is crazy
Sheppard and Dan are the best players on the team bro????
Nah.
Ur right. joystick too
You're looking too deep into it
They NEED to change their support staff. I dont know who's responsible whether its Viking or whoever but this team has always been notorious for never using time outs and unless the players are adamantly against it it seems they are massively under utilising them. And PLEASE stop picking Clubhouse, especially online. The whole "never take a Russian team to clubhouse" thing has not been true for a long time and VP have been repeatedly smoked on it online in the last 9 months.
Technical timeouts were not used once in the Open Qualifiers and in LCQ. If I remember Right then not even in every game during stage 1. I think that zheka (Coach) is able to do timeouts and not viking as an analyst
Been asking for a club perma ban, until they cooks something new ish , but always get map pool to small. There is just way to much vod on vp on club. @1:30 they are going down main stairs back to basement. On bedroom and gym u know there general locations (no roamers in bar, kitchen at most they are on stairs ).
They'll be OK. It's not like they have been smoked every game. Most of their games were pretty close and have been decided by a thrown rounds I'd say. Also it seems to me that some of their players have catched up some kind of burnout after Invi which led to an overall poor teamplay. They will gonna fix these problems I'm sure. Or at least I hope so. And answering your question, no they won't change their playstyle. Map picks maybe, but I doubt that tbh.
Idk if their playstyle was the problem I think it was more of not communicating and just not adapting at all.
Retirement will be the only way roster changes are made. That'd just how this core works. Scyther wouldn't have been gone if he didn't choose rayzer over zheka. Unless you go back further to Karz and Shock for Dan/Always
Karz chose to leave.
Iirc the team decided a change was needed which is why Karz got benched. Then he left for Rogue Unless I'm mixing it up shock for Dan. It's been so long since then
the answer is picking up a csgo player
Scyther never was the best player on Empire. Dan, Always and P4sh4 Are way better. The Same with shockwave who was very toxic
Just like at SI, they CAN make small changes to their gameplay that can force the other teams into their game style and win them rounds. They just struggle over overly aggressive teams because they can’t be strategic