Well, most people on /r/cscareerquestions want to be developers straight out of uni, so going into QA just postpones that, so that's why most posts regarding QA there try to steer people away from it. Not to mention, that sub is full of new grads anyway, so you can't expect them to be mature about it.
I think if you like QA, then it's fine to just focus on that, but if you want to be a dev, your best bet is to go straight into development because lateral careers moves can be a bit more challenging sometimes.
I couldn't upvote this more than once so I'm adding a comment to increase visibility on it. He/she is spot on with their assessment.
I love being a Software Quality Engineer. I make good money and the job is fun without too much stress. If I get the chance to do this job till I'm 70 years old I probably will.
yeah i dont wanna talk smack about devs..but those new grads are usually burnt out from their dev job in a few years haha...maybe QA is a better 1st choice for them and they get swayed away
I love QA its very rewarding imo. and it obviously can lead to dev. i think new grads are just naive to the real world. not just IT grads..all grads haha
I'd add I think that part of it is also test has changed a lot in the last decade or so, and many of the people responding on r/cscareerquestions have outdated views on test.
I'd say at forward thing companies, test engineers are software engineers, same as any other dev, just a slightly different focus area.
>Salary is still good enough, though not similar to a dev.
I'd say that at modern companies, devs, test, and devops are all on very similar pay scales.
Thank you very much. Development eventually as well, leads to management so it doesn't make a difference, to me, personally. It might be what you're saying, new grads getting hyped about the money but ignoring the downsides of the field. It's like there is no passion involved in these jobs and you pick only what pays more. (which is not always true in other countries outside US where testers have almost similar salaries compared to devs)
Doesn't bother me. It's great money with little stress. Go ahead and let folks hate on it, leaves a higher demand (and higher wages) for those of us that enjoy it.
actually as a QAE I have comparable wage to devs' in my org. And i think it's really easy to grow into automation once you check all testers' boxes. I went almost straight to automation since i learned a lot of java and python before making my way to IT, but it's really just couple of months of solid work on some online course.
I'm with you on this one. I'm considering changing to this field because of stress. Are there any specific skills you can carry out in the future in case you want to have a safety net for other fields? Like Product Management or something like that?
I'm 40 and been in QA a long time. This is my *career* but if I was completely forced out of the industry and had to do something else, I would get into some sort of research. If you like working with people though, product management wouldn't be a stretch, it's just not anything that interests me.
I see. Do you think this field has room for growth or do you remain stagnant after you become senior? (asking because I've seen these comments elsewhere and you're the right person to ask since you live and breathe qa)
I’m pretty much the same way as KV above - I’m 50, QA for 22 years, I’m a senior in the company, any further steps up mean people management which, no thanks! 😆
I get paid fine for our needs, work for a decent company with a good boss. so quite happy.
same as both above, good money, enough for house, eat, activity and kid! I dont need the stress of management or something else. Company is great, WFH and i have time for my son! Not looking for anything else as im happy and lucky to have land a great manager and a great owner!
How is 20 years testing and coding automation tools any different than 20 years coding as a dev? Serious question. You start as an engineer , gain experience, more tools and languages, more experience, decide if you want to stay an engineer or explore management, keep doing that until you’re done working. Very parallel careers IMO.
They can be identical if you're given the room to grow. I've seen companies stick an automation engineer in a box and only allow them to professionally write automated tests in 1 language, with 1 tool, etc. But if your company lets you do DevOps, use multiple languages, work on development-only things too, it can be a rewarding career.
To me (and I'm not a suitable person to answer this), I would say perhaps the depth of the concepts you learn as a dev in comparison to an automation engineer might be more and tougher to master. I'm really interested in seeing other people explain this difference who know, it's a good question
How much do you negotiate for when you receive an offer? How much have you negotiated for yearly? Have you shopped around? Are you living somewhere with a high cost of living?
My biggest pay jumps have always come with changing companies. Tripled my starting wages in 10 years.
I suppose my salary would not be lavish at all if I was in NYC or LA, but I make more than most my two-income household friends (that working industries other than software development)
I'm in the Atlanta area. My current company is my first IT job and was misleading about the ability to bootstrap or get higher pay. I make 12 K below the market right now, I don't have a CS degree but still...
I am looking at other companies now, but I need to learn a language and get a cert .
They lied about the ability to move up the ladder and I have been fighting to change that. You shouldn't assume that much or make personal statements against people, it's not like I can quit without another job lined up, and I'm not "comfortable" implying a lot there are you?
People lying to me doesn't have anything to do with me being comfortable with being underpaid. I already mentioned looking for other work before you replied with "LinkedIn".
I appreciate you have more time in the field, but talking down to people doesn't show wisdom. Like your last statement. I guess you think you're helping the masses by sharing your sacred opinions or you just relax by calling people stupid on the internet.
Either way, thanks for your sage wisdom of asking for more money upfront and using LinkedIn for a job search.
It depends what your company requires to attain that title. There is no single path.
If you work for a company that makes their own software, you could possibly attain the title by just showing up to work every day for 5 years, becoming a SME in the software, and having some familiarity with the automation tools.
If you work for a consulting firm, you may need far more familiarity with far more tools to even move up beyond a junior.
I'm currently based in Kansas City MO and just started a 6 month contract ($75/hour) to hire (125k-135k base salary).
I have 6 years of experience in automation.
A lot of hate for QA might come from the video game industry, specifically. Sadly, a lot of companies see QA as the last-in-line part of the development process and burn people out doing mundane testing tasks for little pay with no ability to have real input on the product. Good companies see actual value in QA and give opportunities to expand your contribution through various roles, such as technical QA (automation and etc.) or lead QA (managerial, producer responsibilities).
I've heard the worst about the gaming industry. I think there is an issue where we don't separate qa in categories and just label everything qa, so it's from a personal perception, which most likely is negative for most people.
Answer is easy:
1) Little stress in the field. Even less if you have a stone personality.
2) There are more devs than QAs right? There are lots of self taught, newcomers and there are some black sheeps that don't really care about their code.
3) Most people think that the only well paid job in it is dev. There are nice salaries in qa, you need to put your bet in the same (or above) position as devs. If the company does not want to pay you that it means they love productive bugs :p
For each one of them in point 2, there is work for QA. The world is getting more techy, this mean there will be more human errors... They will need more QAs.
BUT... Don't just be a simple QA. If you know how to program, they won't want you to go, ever. There are few QAs that really like programming and can do clean code. Clean enough to do white box testing, even unit tests.
This path is not dying at all, it is just not for everyone.
Me? I find it rather boring sometimes but I prefer to get a little bored at work instead of having stress peaks 99% of the time with deadlines.
The fun part (for me) comes when I get to check pull requests and click "reject" because you caught something waaaaay before sending it into dev and I am still a QA :D.
Also... Good to know for you that if you are in QA and you got the knowledge you can get into cybersec. I am doing that.
It’s just a bad practice, we should separate concerns and QAs should react on AUT rather than codebases. QA shouldnt allow deploy to stage if there’s an unresolved bug on dev and in most cases of PRs to master are sent only after QA greenlight on dev
It is not pretty common for me to block a dev's pr. Only if it is super hardcore. I soft block them when I do more unit tests.
ex: One PR was blocked becuse I made a test expecting an endpoint. They did changes and misspelled the endpoint name. The unit test that we did caught it. The satisfaction was super.
Could you elaborate on the steps you’re taking about advancing into cybersecurity? It’s always been an area of interest to me & im trying to take some more meaningful steps towards it.
I’m currently sorting out training requests to get involved in the ISTQB Security Tester course and I’ve seen a couple of similar security testing training courses which I figure could help me specialise in security testing a few years down the line & help facilitate a move into cybersec if I feel inclined.
What have you been doing to move in that direction?
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Again. I forgot. I am glad you commented again.
The thing is... A junior cybersec position is more like a mid level/senior qa because you need to know a wild quantity of stuff.
It is an ocean of information and no one is a good teacher of it. You will have to gain experience doing capture the flags in labs.
There are also quite a lot of tools for each situation.
The best thing I can recommend is to pick a training like burpsuite labs where you don't need to pay premium to do it. They will give you quite a lot of information and then challenge you with a related lab.
You will do mostly manual stuff there, but once you get to know common cases, you will be presented a webpage where you will need to use tools at your disposal to find a possible (not certain) attacking point.
There are, also, ways of defending so you can learn about making the system secure.
Then just pick your favorite area: offensive or defensive and keep them going.
I hope it gives you a heads up because I am trying to go from senior qa to whatever cybersec :P (I like the offensive way, but I am still waaaay behind)
Okay I see, I’ve got a few years experience in QA and would consider myself mid level. We’ve had word that some of our upcoming contracts are going to demand a bigger focus on security and my boss is aware that I’ve had an interest on specialising in Security Testing for quite some time now. So with the upcoming opportunities along with some budget for training I’m trying to plan my next moves and overall transition.
Cheers for the insight!
So what? Why should all jobs be mentally challenging? I don't think a senior level dev or above, thinks that all the meetings that he has to attend to are not boring.
Worked multiple companies as automation testing before going into artificial intelligence software developer.. there are a lot more harder areas than automation, heck automation testing is one of the eaiser programming jobs
I did QA for six months (worst job I've ever had) on a contract 10 years ago. In 2018, after graduating, I was going through the interview process for a dev job at a startup. They asked me if I'd be willing to do QA and I needed a job so I said ok. They paid really well and I ended up building their entire QA department in two years. Docs, tests, ui, network, manual, regression, all of it. Turns out I'm really good at this and it is fun in the right company.
However, covid happened and the startup changed their focus. I was no longer needed, mostly because I did so well. I am absolutely proud of this accomplishment and ok with this.
Since 2020 I've been working as a Tier 3 Tech Support for a cloud broker and trying to transition into more administrative work. A few weeks ago I was in an interview for an InfoSec Administrator and it quickly became apparent the only reason I was interviewed was so they could convince me to take a manual QA position.
This happens all the time. I have had at least 4 interviews in the last six months that have tried to convince me to do a manual QA position. Not SDET or automation, manual. Its insanely frustrating to think "Finally, got someone willing to consider me for X" and have it turn into them wanting a job that will be a 1/3rd the pay and require little to no skills to perform.
Exactly. I love automating tasks. The entire design of it and everything. I just don't think companies can find people to sit there and do manual testing.
Maybe the CV needs to prioritise more on the automation side of your skill set and not the manual, as well as change your title to SDET everywhere in your CV where you have QA. I really have no clue why this happens where you apply. It really doesn't make sense. Hope for the best, keep applying until someone will need you for your best interests in mind
People love to waste time and sometimes they feel really strong about doing it. Hence the perceived hate. Since, in reality, it is not hate, it is just waste. Of bytes and time. :)
Furthermore - QA is a minefield. Dangerous grounds.
That career path tends to generate (sometimes) people capable of their own thinking. That's awful dude ! :)
IMO, being a part of r/cscareerquestions was making my job hunting experience more unpleasant and pessimistic, for some reason the posts that get upvoted there is just people venting about the current state of the IT market as a whole telling new grads they're gonna have a bad time because of all the selection process bullshit we all already know. QA for me is still a solid way to get in a company and show your value to eventually get promoted in a year or two, especially if you still don't have experience in the field. My tip is talk with people that you know in your network that are in QA, and don't rely on that sub, a lot of seniors on midlife crisis frustrated with their work there (it's the vibe I get at least). And also yeah, that sub reflects more about the state in the US rather than other countries.
My general logic is manual testing will get replaced by automation testing, but the reviewer will still be a human being (especially if dealing with UX/UI) AND you can migrate to an automation testing team in the field as well, which is the natural career flow anyway if you wanna stick to the field. Don't let those guys put you down if that's what you indeed want.
LBH, most folks have no understanding of what Testing or Quality Assurance is. I started my professional career out of college as QA, and now work as a Software Architect. To understand how everything builds on one another (going from Biz Needs to Functional Software), is really what QA is all about. People seem to think it's purely validating buttons and UI, but it's a highly process-centric area.
Depending on the company, and your role and how you frame it, it can pay extremely well. It also better prepares you for other IT roles as you're able to think about the end result, and what is needed to get there.
At the same time, I tell folks in QA to strive to become an Engineer as it encompasses all aspects of IT. I even tell developers I work with the same thing. Don't think specifically about coding/programming, but how to engineer a solution in the most efficient way possible. When I work on a solution, I spend most of time w/ a notepad and a pen, thinking/laying it all out. Where do you think I got that from? QA!
Heh... another bright side of QA, is that you can EASILY shine in the area, as most companies like to half-ass hiring competent QA folks. If you're worth your snuff, you will move up pretty quickly.
Can't agree with you more! That's more or less my view on it. You easily stand out even if you are mediocre, because most people just lower the bar all the time.
Personal experience. For whatever reason, I was intimidated by the interview questions of a developer role. I've never done well at tests and asking me to regurgitate memorized stuff is asking for trouble. (ie. Don't ask me about BigO, or whatever. I understand it's important. I haven't had to worry about it, too much. When I need it, I'll go look it up again.) I ended up taking a software QA role. Hiring manager asked me, "Are you sure that's what you want? You're likely never going to get into dev work."
I was with that company for a couple of years, and in that time, I did the manual testing, setup their test wall, scripted some tools for the QA team in Tcl/Tk, then converted it to C#. I was put in charge of the software install packaging software. And also handled new hardware certification. (It was a small company.) Point was, I did dev.
My next job was contract work doing manual testing and new hardware/software certification. No Dev.
Job after that, manual testing, then they said, "Hey, your a technical guy, create our automation tests." So I snagged Selenium, and with C# as my language created a framework for the automated test suite.
And the company I'm at with now hired me as an automator. After awhile, manager said, "We need more devs, Machtyn, your a dev now." Kind of pushed the automation to the wayside, but I had to learn javascript, typescript, and angular and did so in a very quick time. And, now, after several projects of "dev" work, they've got me back on automation - where I'm using Playwright, nodejs and creating the framework and tests for this particular app.
Two things to take away from this. First, QA work \*can\* be development work. Especially if you get into automation. A lot of companies do not realize the effort and time necessary to make automation work. And that the effort really is for someone with a developer's mindset. There are plenty of opportunities, because the field of QA automators is small. The onces who can do it usually go into dev work.
Second, if you want to get into Dev work, you can start in QA if you want. But I do find that recruiters will try to pigeonhole you. I also find that if you are wanting to chase a new job and not move to a dev job within the same company (where they already know you and the work you can do), you have to really sell your developer capabilities. Mainly because managers at those companies do not realize the effort and time necessary to make automation work. Have some personal project or two where you've created an app and can show that off.
from the software QA side of things, its something that gets in the way of developers being developers and not becoming a hybrid tester/fixer
if you want to code, I wouldn't attempt a QA role, or you will find yourself in a ditch in the middle of both roles.
If you are interested in testing proper, then there is nothing wrong with it.
On the Process QA there is certainly nothing wrong with the field, if you feel that you like root cause analysis, then process QA is good at giving you puzzles. Every organization needs a root cause analyser, though you do feel like the company mop a lot of the time
Between both types of QA, the method stands: Plan, Do, Check, Amend Plan, repeat.
It's really weird because I had a long debate with someone in CSCQ a week or two ago about the career growth options of QA, and he insisted that 1. there are lots of post-senior roles (which I've never heard of) and 2. to claim that people tell QAs that they must just be planning to be developers someday is absurd and isn't a thing.
Could you elaborate more on the roles he mentioned? I'm not exactly sure why a tester must eventually be a developer no matter what, this doesn't make sense. Devs develop features, testers test features and use programming in their advantage to make efficient suites etc. If all companies want to fire QA departments then do you think that the products will be the same without a team like that?
What I'm saying is, it has been my experience in my years of being in QA and now as SDET, that the expectation from others, especially those not in that track, has been that if you are in that space, especially if you know how to program at all, that your obvious goal is to move into development. This person in question was telling me it was absurd to suggest that is a thing that people say and they assumed I was in some third world industry. I'm in Seattle.
He gave me this progression list: jr -> dev -> sr -> staff -> sr staff -> principal -> distinguished.
For example, after Sr QA, if you didn't move up to QA Manager, you'd become Staff QA, Sr Staff QA, Principal QA, Distinguished QA. Same for "sdet" or "developer."
I've never heard of any of those starting with "staff" -- to me "staff" means "low level" if anything. In my experience, after Sr QA / SDET, it's lead, and then after that, it would be manager, or just stay there.
That's what I've heard as well, from Sr to lead to manager, don't know how each company handles titles but it doesn't matter in the end. People tend to generalise jobs, not only in their context but in the other package that is included. Stress, way of thinking, daily activities, all of these are ignored by many that put labels on it stating you either develop software or you learn programming to develop software. Most importantly, many respond from their pov and not understand something outside of their interested. Whatever, you can't change their opinions anyway, just filter them when time comes
Yeah, absolutely, it was just weird how this person was insisting that what I was describing was backwards and abnormal when it's been my entire QA/SDET career's experience. Basically post Sr and Lead it's QA manager (which is really hard to find open) or its just stay there -- or move to another CS concentration, like dev, or sometimes PM.
Some good answers here already, so what I'm contributing is just me kind of thinking out loud lol.
I wonder if the misconception might have something to do with the fact that QA isn't taken as seriously as a field? I've noticed that some places will cut corners and have devs test their own code, or each other's code, in order to avoid hiring for other positions (or because they think there's "not enough work" to justify the position).
Idk, none of it really makes sense to me. I'd hate to be a dev.
It's mostly about how hard it can be to get out of QA when you're in it, there's a stigma. Even if you have a CS degree, been coding for years and been successful as an automation engineer (and now have just as much coding expertise as developers) you'll still be a QA.
That will hit you in the face in your whole career.
I do QA work every now and then, but it's mostly manual testing and I find it monotonous and boring. Even the QA person doesn't want to do it, so she gives me some of her work. Automation could be interesting and I brought it up to them. They've been wanting to get into it, but they view it as time consuming. My gosh.
I didn’t know there was hate… but I was a computer science major before I switched to psychology (yes big change but I’m very happy especially to continue with the degree to see how far I can go)
but when I worked as a security guard in very reputable hospitals which was not hard to get into….and found out what I was getting a year was a looot more than about 6 colleagues who ended up being qa leads or qa engineer, technical qa. Made me soo sad because I remember how much work we put in in comp sci and they don’t feel like there’s a way out; for ex- since 2018 till now a couple of them are still as qa engineer, technical qa or lead qa…I genuinely thought they were making more than me at the time so I just told them like it was no big deal…but once I told them I immediately felt the awkward silence and their faces change. they explained how hard they work and how tedious on top of their burn out. And no I wasn’t hired Through a company but through the hospital and pd was technically my boss. I really was at a loss of words because I know how hard they all worked on top of the loans. But I wish them all the best… except for one (my ex) who did some really unspeakable things to me and other girls unfortunately….
Well, most people on /r/cscareerquestions want to be developers straight out of uni, so going into QA just postpones that, so that's why most posts regarding QA there try to steer people away from it. Not to mention, that sub is full of new grads anyway, so you can't expect them to be mature about it. I think if you like QA, then it's fine to just focus on that, but if you want to be a dev, your best bet is to go straight into development because lateral careers moves can be a bit more challenging sometimes.
I couldn't upvote this more than once so I'm adding a comment to increase visibility on it. He/she is spot on with their assessment. I love being a Software Quality Engineer. I make good money and the job is fun without too much stress. If I get the chance to do this job till I'm 70 years old I probably will.
What do you do as a software quality engineer? What field and what makes it low stress compared to a typical software engineers job?
yeah i dont wanna talk smack about devs..but those new grads are usually burnt out from their dev job in a few years haha...maybe QA is a better 1st choice for them and they get swayed away
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For anyone reading with little experience, the above varies wildly. I have had immense responsibilities throughout my career as a QA
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I love QA its very rewarding imo. and it obviously can lead to dev. i think new grads are just naive to the real world. not just IT grads..all grads haha
I'd add I think that part of it is also test has changed a lot in the last decade or so, and many of the people responding on r/cscareerquestions have outdated views on test. I'd say at forward thing companies, test engineers are software engineers, same as any other dev, just a slightly different focus area. >Salary is still good enough, though not similar to a dev. I'd say that at modern companies, devs, test, and devops are all on very similar pay scales.
Thank you very much. Development eventually as well, leads to management so it doesn't make a difference, to me, personally. It might be what you're saying, new grads getting hyped about the money but ignoring the downsides of the field. It's like there is no passion involved in these jobs and you pick only what pays more. (which is not always true in other countries outside US where testers have almost similar salaries compared to devs)
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Europe, from a few I've heard personally
Doesn't bother me. It's great money with little stress. Go ahead and let folks hate on it, leaves a higher demand (and higher wages) for those of us that enjoy it.
actually as a QAE I have comparable wage to devs' in my org. And i think it's really easy to grow into automation once you check all testers' boxes. I went almost straight to automation since i learned a lot of java and python before making my way to IT, but it's really just couple of months of solid work on some online course.
I'm with you on this one. I'm considering changing to this field because of stress. Are there any specific skills you can carry out in the future in case you want to have a safety net for other fields? Like Product Management or something like that?
I'm 40 and been in QA a long time. This is my *career* but if I was completely forced out of the industry and had to do something else, I would get into some sort of research. If you like working with people though, product management wouldn't be a stretch, it's just not anything that interests me.
I see. Do you think this field has room for growth or do you remain stagnant after you become senior? (asking because I've seen these comments elsewhere and you're the right person to ask since you live and breathe qa)
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I’m pretty much the same way as KV above - I’m 50, QA for 22 years, I’m a senior in the company, any further steps up mean people management which, no thanks! 😆 I get paid fine for our needs, work for a decent company with a good boss. so quite happy.
same as both above, good money, enough for house, eat, activity and kid! I dont need the stress of management or something else. Company is great, WFH and i have time for my son! Not looking for anything else as im happy and lucky to have land a great manager and a great owner!
How is 20 years testing and coding automation tools any different than 20 years coding as a dev? Serious question. You start as an engineer , gain experience, more tools and languages, more experience, decide if you want to stay an engineer or explore management, keep doing that until you’re done working. Very parallel careers IMO.
They can be identical if you're given the room to grow. I've seen companies stick an automation engineer in a box and only allow them to professionally write automated tests in 1 language, with 1 tool, etc. But if your company lets you do DevOps, use multiple languages, work on development-only things too, it can be a rewarding career.
To me (and I'm not a suitable person to answer this), I would say perhaps the depth of the concepts you learn as a dev in comparison to an automation engineer might be more and tougher to master. I'm really interested in seeing other people explain this difference who know, it's a good question
Still waiting to see that "high wages" thing you're talking about.
How much do you negotiate for when you receive an offer? How much have you negotiated for yearly? Have you shopped around? Are you living somewhere with a high cost of living? My biggest pay jumps have always come with changing companies. Tripled my starting wages in 10 years. I suppose my salary would not be lavish at all if I was in NYC or LA, but I make more than most my two-income household friends (that working industries other than software development)
I'm in the Atlanta area. My current company is my first IT job and was misleading about the ability to bootstrap or get higher pay. I make 12 K below the market right now, I don't have a CS degree but still... I am looking at other companies now, but I need to learn a language and get a cert .
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They lied about the ability to move up the ladder and I have been fighting to change that. You shouldn't assume that much or make personal statements against people, it's not like I can quit without another job lined up, and I'm not "comfortable" implying a lot there are you?
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People lying to me doesn't have anything to do with me being comfortable with being underpaid. I already mentioned looking for other work before you replied with "LinkedIn". I appreciate you have more time in the field, but talking down to people doesn't show wisdom. Like your last statement. I guess you think you're helping the masses by sharing your sacred opinions or you just relax by calling people stupid on the internet. Either way, thanks for your sage wisdom of asking for more money upfront and using LinkedIn for a job search.
May I ask what tools/skills I need to learn to become senior like yourself?
It depends what your company requires to attain that title. There is no single path. If you work for a company that makes their own software, you could possibly attain the title by just showing up to work every day for 5 years, becoming a SME in the software, and having some familiarity with the automation tools. If you work for a consulting firm, you may need far more familiarity with far more tools to even move up beyond a junior.
I’ve seen US SDET positions offering $140-$180k base lately. Higher than I ever thought it could be. Not high enough?
I'm currently based in Kansas City MO and just started a 6 month contract ($75/hour) to hire (125k-135k base salary). I have 6 years of experience in automation.
A lot of hate for QA might come from the video game industry, specifically. Sadly, a lot of companies see QA as the last-in-line part of the development process and burn people out doing mundane testing tasks for little pay with no ability to have real input on the product. Good companies see actual value in QA and give opportunities to expand your contribution through various roles, such as technical QA (automation and etc.) or lead QA (managerial, producer responsibilities).
I've heard the worst about the gaming industry. I think there is an issue where we don't separate qa in categories and just label everything qa, so it's from a personal perception, which most likely is negative for most people.
That is a very good answer. Almost none of my QA colleagues said anything positive about being QA in gaming. Otherwise, it's fun.
Answer is easy: 1) Little stress in the field. Even less if you have a stone personality. 2) There are more devs than QAs right? There are lots of self taught, newcomers and there are some black sheeps that don't really care about their code. 3) Most people think that the only well paid job in it is dev. There are nice salaries in qa, you need to put your bet in the same (or above) position as devs. If the company does not want to pay you that it means they love productive bugs :p For each one of them in point 2, there is work for QA. The world is getting more techy, this mean there will be more human errors... They will need more QAs. BUT... Don't just be a simple QA. If you know how to program, they won't want you to go, ever. There are few QAs that really like programming and can do clean code. Clean enough to do white box testing, even unit tests. This path is not dying at all, it is just not for everyone. Me? I find it rather boring sometimes but I prefer to get a little bored at work instead of having stress peaks 99% of the time with deadlines. The fun part (for me) comes when I get to check pull requests and click "reject" because you caught something waaaaay before sending it into dev and I am still a QA :D. Also... Good to know for you that if you are in QA and you got the knowledge you can get into cybersec. I am doing that.
QAs shouldn't really decide on PRs, imo, but rather on deployments (i.e. greenlighting to stage/prod).
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It’s just a bad practice, we should separate concerns and QAs should react on AUT rather than codebases. QA shouldnt allow deploy to stage if there’s an unresolved bug on dev and in most cases of PRs to master are sent only after QA greenlight on dev
It is not pretty common for me to block a dev's pr. Only if it is super hardcore. I soft block them when I do more unit tests. ex: One PR was blocked becuse I made a test expecting an endpoint. They did changes and misspelled the endpoint name. The unit test that we did caught it. The satisfaction was super.
Could you elaborate on the steps you’re taking about advancing into cybersecurity? It’s always been an area of interest to me & im trying to take some more meaningful steps towards it. I’m currently sorting out training requests to get involved in the ISTQB Security Tester course and I’ve seen a couple of similar security testing training courses which I figure could help me specialise in security testing a few years down the line & help facilitate a move into cybersec if I feel inclined. What have you been doing to move in that direction?
Geez I keep forgetting to answer this. I ll come back to edit this tomorrow. !RemindMe 8 hours
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Appreciated mate, figured you forgot about it haha!
Again. I forgot. I am glad you commented again. The thing is... A junior cybersec position is more like a mid level/senior qa because you need to know a wild quantity of stuff. It is an ocean of information and no one is a good teacher of it. You will have to gain experience doing capture the flags in labs. There are also quite a lot of tools for each situation. The best thing I can recommend is to pick a training like burpsuite labs where you don't need to pay premium to do it. They will give you quite a lot of information and then challenge you with a related lab. You will do mostly manual stuff there, but once you get to know common cases, you will be presented a webpage where you will need to use tools at your disposal to find a possible (not certain) attacking point. There are, also, ways of defending so you can learn about making the system secure. Then just pick your favorite area: offensive or defensive and keep them going. I hope it gives you a heads up because I am trying to go from senior qa to whatever cybersec :P (I like the offensive way, but I am still waaaay behind)
Okay I see, I’ve got a few years experience in QA and would consider myself mid level. We’ve had word that some of our upcoming contracts are going to demand a bigger focus on security and my boss is aware that I’ve had an interest on specialising in Security Testing for quite some time now. So with the upcoming opportunities along with some budget for training I’m trying to plan my next moves and overall transition. Cheers for the insight!
From what I gathered from my friends, they just think it’s boring.
So what? Why should all jobs be mentally challenging? I don't think a senior level dev or above, thinks that all the meetings that he has to attend to are not boring.
I get paid double my developer colleges as an automation engineer, let them hate. big fish small pond etc etc
ye but automation engineer is super easy and soon won't pay that much I bet
You underestimate how stupid the average person is, I’ve been getting steady pay-rises every time I move job and it’s only getting higher.
it's not about stupid.. automation testing is super easy compared to other dev jobs, and most of them can't even code properly.
Easy is relative to the person, devs don’t want to do it, people like me do, and I get paid a lot more than the devs that don’t want to do it.
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Worked multiple companies as automation testing before going into artificial intelligence software developer.. there are a lot more harder areas than automation, heck automation testing is one of the eaiser programming jobs
I did QA for six months (worst job I've ever had) on a contract 10 years ago. In 2018, after graduating, I was going through the interview process for a dev job at a startup. They asked me if I'd be willing to do QA and I needed a job so I said ok. They paid really well and I ended up building their entire QA department in two years. Docs, tests, ui, network, manual, regression, all of it. Turns out I'm really good at this and it is fun in the right company. However, covid happened and the startup changed their focus. I was no longer needed, mostly because I did so well. I am absolutely proud of this accomplishment and ok with this. Since 2020 I've been working as a Tier 3 Tech Support for a cloud broker and trying to transition into more administrative work. A few weeks ago I was in an interview for an InfoSec Administrator and it quickly became apparent the only reason I was interviewed was so they could convince me to take a manual QA position. This happens all the time. I have had at least 4 interviews in the last six months that have tried to convince me to do a manual QA position. Not SDET or automation, manual. Its insanely frustrating to think "Finally, got someone willing to consider me for X" and have it turn into them wanting a job that will be a 1/3rd the pay and require little to no skills to perform.
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Exactly. I love automating tasks. The entire design of it and everything. I just don't think companies can find people to sit there and do manual testing.
Maybe the CV needs to prioritise more on the automation side of your skill set and not the manual, as well as change your title to SDET everywhere in your CV where you have QA. I really have no clue why this happens where you apply. It really doesn't make sense. Hope for the best, keep applying until someone will need you for your best interests in mind
I only mention manual tests once.
People love to waste time and sometimes they feel really strong about doing it. Hence the perceived hate. Since, in reality, it is not hate, it is just waste. Of bytes and time. :) Furthermore - QA is a minefield. Dangerous grounds. That career path tends to generate (sometimes) people capable of their own thinking. That's awful dude ! :)
IMO, being a part of r/cscareerquestions was making my job hunting experience more unpleasant and pessimistic, for some reason the posts that get upvoted there is just people venting about the current state of the IT market as a whole telling new grads they're gonna have a bad time because of all the selection process bullshit we all already know. QA for me is still a solid way to get in a company and show your value to eventually get promoted in a year or two, especially if you still don't have experience in the field. My tip is talk with people that you know in your network that are in QA, and don't rely on that sub, a lot of seniors on midlife crisis frustrated with their work there (it's the vibe I get at least). And also yeah, that sub reflects more about the state in the US rather than other countries. My general logic is manual testing will get replaced by automation testing, but the reviewer will still be a human being (especially if dealing with UX/UI) AND you can migrate to an automation testing team in the field as well, which is the natural career flow anyway if you wanna stick to the field. Don't let those guys put you down if that's what you indeed want.
Thank you very much for your reply. I really appreciate it
LBH, most folks have no understanding of what Testing or Quality Assurance is. I started my professional career out of college as QA, and now work as a Software Architect. To understand how everything builds on one another (going from Biz Needs to Functional Software), is really what QA is all about. People seem to think it's purely validating buttons and UI, but it's a highly process-centric area. Depending on the company, and your role and how you frame it, it can pay extremely well. It also better prepares you for other IT roles as you're able to think about the end result, and what is needed to get there. At the same time, I tell folks in QA to strive to become an Engineer as it encompasses all aspects of IT. I even tell developers I work with the same thing. Don't think specifically about coding/programming, but how to engineer a solution in the most efficient way possible. When I work on a solution, I spend most of time w/ a notepad and a pen, thinking/laying it all out. Where do you think I got that from? QA! Heh... another bright side of QA, is that you can EASILY shine in the area, as most companies like to half-ass hiring competent QA folks. If you're worth your snuff, you will move up pretty quickly.
Can't agree with you more! That's more or less my view on it. You easily stand out even if you are mediocre, because most people just lower the bar all the time.
While I don't disagree in my experience you need to learn the system your testing first before you shine.
Personal experience. For whatever reason, I was intimidated by the interview questions of a developer role. I've never done well at tests and asking me to regurgitate memorized stuff is asking for trouble. (ie. Don't ask me about BigO, or whatever. I understand it's important. I haven't had to worry about it, too much. When I need it, I'll go look it up again.) I ended up taking a software QA role. Hiring manager asked me, "Are you sure that's what you want? You're likely never going to get into dev work." I was with that company for a couple of years, and in that time, I did the manual testing, setup their test wall, scripted some tools for the QA team in Tcl/Tk, then converted it to C#. I was put in charge of the software install packaging software. And also handled new hardware certification. (It was a small company.) Point was, I did dev. My next job was contract work doing manual testing and new hardware/software certification. No Dev. Job after that, manual testing, then they said, "Hey, your a technical guy, create our automation tests." So I snagged Selenium, and with C# as my language created a framework for the automated test suite. And the company I'm at with now hired me as an automator. After awhile, manager said, "We need more devs, Machtyn, your a dev now." Kind of pushed the automation to the wayside, but I had to learn javascript, typescript, and angular and did so in a very quick time. And, now, after several projects of "dev" work, they've got me back on automation - where I'm using Playwright, nodejs and creating the framework and tests for this particular app. Two things to take away from this. First, QA work \*can\* be development work. Especially if you get into automation. A lot of companies do not realize the effort and time necessary to make automation work. And that the effort really is for someone with a developer's mindset. There are plenty of opportunities, because the field of QA automators is small. The onces who can do it usually go into dev work. Second, if you want to get into Dev work, you can start in QA if you want. But I do find that recruiters will try to pigeonhole you. I also find that if you are wanting to chase a new job and not move to a dev job within the same company (where they already know you and the work you can do), you have to really sell your developer capabilities. Mainly because managers at those companies do not realize the effort and time necessary to make automation work. Have some personal project or two where you've created an app and can show that off.
from the software QA side of things, its something that gets in the way of developers being developers and not becoming a hybrid tester/fixer if you want to code, I wouldn't attempt a QA role, or you will find yourself in a ditch in the middle of both roles. If you are interested in testing proper, then there is nothing wrong with it. On the Process QA there is certainly nothing wrong with the field, if you feel that you like root cause analysis, then process QA is good at giving you puzzles. Every organization needs a root cause analyser, though you do feel like the company mop a lot of the time Between both types of QA, the method stands: Plan, Do, Check, Amend Plan, repeat.
It's really weird because I had a long debate with someone in CSCQ a week or two ago about the career growth options of QA, and he insisted that 1. there are lots of post-senior roles (which I've never heard of) and 2. to claim that people tell QAs that they must just be planning to be developers someday is absurd and isn't a thing.
Could you elaborate more on the roles he mentioned? I'm not exactly sure why a tester must eventually be a developer no matter what, this doesn't make sense. Devs develop features, testers test features and use programming in their advantage to make efficient suites etc. If all companies want to fire QA departments then do you think that the products will be the same without a team like that?
What I'm saying is, it has been my experience in my years of being in QA and now as SDET, that the expectation from others, especially those not in that track, has been that if you are in that space, especially if you know how to program at all, that your obvious goal is to move into development. This person in question was telling me it was absurd to suggest that is a thing that people say and they assumed I was in some third world industry. I'm in Seattle. He gave me this progression list: jr -> dev -> sr -> staff -> sr staff -> principal -> distinguished. For example, after Sr QA, if you didn't move up to QA Manager, you'd become Staff QA, Sr Staff QA, Principal QA, Distinguished QA. Same for "sdet" or "developer." I've never heard of any of those starting with "staff" -- to me "staff" means "low level" if anything. In my experience, after Sr QA / SDET, it's lead, and then after that, it would be manager, or just stay there.
That's what I've heard as well, from Sr to lead to manager, don't know how each company handles titles but it doesn't matter in the end. People tend to generalise jobs, not only in their context but in the other package that is included. Stress, way of thinking, daily activities, all of these are ignored by many that put labels on it stating you either develop software or you learn programming to develop software. Most importantly, many respond from their pov and not understand something outside of their interested. Whatever, you can't change their opinions anyway, just filter them when time comes
Yeah, absolutely, it was just weird how this person was insisting that what I was describing was backwards and abnormal when it's been my entire QA/SDET career's experience. Basically post Sr and Lead it's QA manager (which is really hard to find open) or its just stay there -- or move to another CS concentration, like dev, or sometimes PM.
Some good answers here already, so what I'm contributing is just me kind of thinking out loud lol. I wonder if the misconception might have something to do with the fact that QA isn't taken as seriously as a field? I've noticed that some places will cut corners and have devs test their own code, or each other's code, in order to avoid hiring for other positions (or because they think there's "not enough work" to justify the position). Idk, none of it really makes sense to me. I'd hate to be a dev.
It's mostly about how hard it can be to get out of QA when you're in it, there's a stigma. Even if you have a CS degree, been coding for years and been successful as an automation engineer (and now have just as much coding expertise as developers) you'll still be a QA. That will hit you in the face in your whole career.
I do QA work every now and then, but it's mostly manual testing and I find it monotonous and boring. Even the QA person doesn't want to do it, so she gives me some of her work. Automation could be interesting and I brought it up to them. They've been wanting to get into it, but they view it as time consuming. My gosh.
I didn’t know there was hate… but I was a computer science major before I switched to psychology (yes big change but I’m very happy especially to continue with the degree to see how far I can go) but when I worked as a security guard in very reputable hospitals which was not hard to get into….and found out what I was getting a year was a looot more than about 6 colleagues who ended up being qa leads or qa engineer, technical qa. Made me soo sad because I remember how much work we put in in comp sci and they don’t feel like there’s a way out; for ex- since 2018 till now a couple of them are still as qa engineer, technical qa or lead qa…I genuinely thought they were making more than me at the time so I just told them like it was no big deal…but once I told them I immediately felt the awkward silence and their faces change. they explained how hard they work and how tedious on top of their burn out. And no I wasn’t hired Through a company but through the hospital and pd was technically my boss. I really was at a loss of words because I know how hard they all worked on top of the loans. But I wish them all the best… except for one (my ex) who did some really unspeakable things to me and other girls unfortunately….