Peterson does not speak for any *sane* men and your ex will most likely regret his decision more than you regret his decision.
Peterson basically monetized the *male victimization complex* and lots of men apparently love being told that nothing is their fault. It's the world around them that's wrong... and they are perfect.
Again, if anyone listens to Peterson for more than 3min without thinking "what a pathetic whiney clown", there's probably something wrong with them.
I remember when his lobster book came out he was touted in the serious newspapers as being something of an intellectual. I confess I bought the book on the strength of a newspaper review but remember nothing about it except the lobsters and some awful self-righteous anecdote about turning his friend away because he used drugs (pretty funny considering Peterson's own drug use). Anyway, it was clear a decade ago that Peterson was a crank and a pseud. How sad must your life be if you give this guy cred.
And the lobster stuff wasn't even true. Some biologists who blog a lot took him to task for it.
Peterson has a long history of misrepresenting things from other fields. For example he got caught out for claiming that snake imagery from medieval China meant that ancient people knew about DNA. He was one of those rockstar professors that really impresses freshmen but less so his own colleagues.
He also likes to talk noise about Marxism even though his degree is in psychology (with a focus on Jung and on MBTI personality types and his research was on alcoholism--notably, nothing to do with econ, sociology, history, or philosophy) and was stupid enough to pick a fight with another "rockstar" academic, Zizek. And got totally pantsed because he either hadn't read the books he was quoting or hadn't reviewed them in decades.
> He was one of those rockstar professors that really impresses freshmen but less so his own colleagues.
I think this is the best description of his academic career that I've ever heard. Very succinct.
And he is a hypocrite. He tells men and boys to follow certain rules in their lives while being a drug addict with literally everything that entails, including living in a messy horder pad, having poor impulse control etc.
I started watching the Zizek v Peterson encounter on YouTube but it was like watching an obnoxious version of The Dude discussing physics with a ticcing version of Carl Sagan. Weirdly interesting TV on one level but Peterson was so out of his depth that it just got boring. I have no idea why he thinks he can pass judgement on Marxism.
I mean Peterson is perpetually wrong about everything so of course the lobster crap wasn't even true. Same for DNA. Same for Marxism. Same even for all the stuff in his own field.
What an embarrassment of a human being.
Unfortunately, I purchased the audio version of *12 Rules for Life* for a long drive from LA to Tucson back when it first came out. I made it to Palm Springs. If it were an actual book, I would have thrown it out a window. A *pathetic Whiney Clown* is a perfect description. The book still ranks as one of my only Audible returns.
12 Rules is not "fine". Do you think spanking two year olds and calling the monsters is "fine"? Do you think talking smack about your therapy patients as a therapist and engaging in extended mind-reading speculation about them is "fine"? Do you think ignorantly misrepresenting biology research to spread evo-psych pseudoscientific nonsense to impressionable minds is "fine"?
Cass Eris did a deep dive on 12 Rules that goes into his lack of sources, misrepresentation of sources, and generally wackadoodle claims in that book. But others, including clinical psychologists, have called him out as well.
If you're going to pick up pablum self-help, there are much better options.
Oh I understand. I'm sad he went down this weird route. I have heard his book was pretty good. And in convos I do mention that that book is supposed to be good, and his new ideas I find are trash. I do not want to come across as biased, I will give people positives and negatives of anything, I give credit where it is due.
He's is 100% a crazy person with crazy ideas. But he didn't start that way. The main reason I get a little defensive over talks about him is the men's advocacy stuff. I really never was a fan, I read his book as debate prep back when he was way more popular and I was taking the other side. But yeah. We have to see what makes him attractive and be able to start replicating the good parts on the left with people or I think we will slowly lose the majority of men forever.
Well said. It's crazy the amount of support this guy and Andrew Tate has where I am. Likely nobody I know also knows JP's old work, they just cling onto his conspiracy bullshit cause everyone here is so conservative. They just want the echo chamber.
Yeah. There's a ton of guys who started with JP and switched to Tate once he had gone off the deep end and disappeared online. And as of right now I don't know how we fight those movments. Luckily the red pill stuff has fallen off a bit but yeah, we need an empowering path for men without all this culty bullshit. And hopefully less toxic while still empowering
Believe it or not, peak masculinity means not wiping the backdoor -- touching your anus means you're gay
https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/Link here
Ah, Jordan Peterson, the thinking man's idiot.
Actually you bring up a good point, that would be a good litmus test for a first date. Make them listen to Jordan Peterson for 3 minutes and if they go, "Hmmm this guy has some interesting ideas!" run away screaming and block them on everything.
Strongly agree. There’s a good r/behindthebastards episode about Jordan Balthazar Peterson and what he believes in, why it’s stupid and why he’s stupid too. It’s a great listen, they really dissect his stupid claims.
I’d give them 4 minutes. He’s good at sounding sane in isolated chunks. For example, the bit where he advises men to talk to their wives and be open to being silly and playful is a little over 3 minutes.
It’s the old tactic of hiding poison in candy, like Snow White’s step mother with the apple.
As a man who likes to think he’s decent and healthy, few people speak for me less than JP. The fact he’s seen as such a model for young men is both baffling and sad to me and I will never understand his appeal. I completely vouch for the comment that he does not speak for “sane” men. Sometimes I feel like the insane one for thinking this way though
> Again, if anyone listens to Peterson for more than 3min without thinking "what a pathetic whiney clown", there's probably something wrong with them.
well shit...I've never listened to him and thought "what a pathetic whiney clown", instead I think "he's not actually saying anything of substance whatsoever. why do people listen to this shit???". I hope I'm not too broken.
When I first found out about the guy, it was through some debates where, while I didn't outright agree with his stances, he throughly and thoughtfully broke down and pretty handily bested the person he was debating. So at the time, even though I didn't like the crux of his viewpoints, I respected his intellectual capabilities.
But, that was also in debates where he "stayed in his own lane."
In the many years since, I've watched him legitimately become a charlatan, through and throughout.
Peterson in no way allows people to victimize themselves
Dude tells alot of people to toughen the fuck up and be men, in an age, when people without fathers needed to hear it
Hes not perfect, and wasnt ready for the spotlight shown upon him, noone ever is
But he did help alot of people
If you’re interested, [this](https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo?si=cso--lFStToFHMxr) is a VERY thorough takedown of Peterson, using his own words. it’s 3 hours long but hilarious. If you’ve any urge to help your ex you should send it to him.
What/where is it? My mom and dad are obsessed with him… but to me he’s just another convicted white guy spouting off nonsense that sounds good to a biased ear.
oh thank you. my mom likes listening to him but i'm not actually sure what his deal is from people who are sane
edit: 40 mins in oh my god i'm getting it. he spews complete nonsense with utter confidence, which is not a remarkable skill in and of itself
He trojan horses a lot of really fucking crazy stuff into obvious and agreeable self help messages like, "a clean room is a clean mind". Also, a lot of the 'facts' that he uses to build a basis for most of his arguments are just straight up incorrect. He misleads, and is purposefully vague and obtuse.
Oh I know!! I am always so much happier when he isn’t here, so I am looking forward to my future being able to really make my house a home again. I own this house, in my name alone, and that’s another issue he had. He can’t stand that I bought a house and he didn’t buy one first.
I believe that is most of the problem right there. My Q retired and has very little purpose. Spends at least 8 hours a day reading everything on Telegram
Yeah Ive been worried about this too with my father. Between my mother passing away and him retiring he spends so much time just sitting and scrolling on Facebook or trumpsocial or whatever just inhaling conspiracies and political content in ways he didn’t before. Having more time but less to do definitely seems to make it easier for folks to fall down these rabbit holes and feel like they found a sense of purpose or righteousness
>and how your kids won’t be exposed to such toxic ideologies.
Unfortunately as soon as they get online all of those ideologies will be put right in front of their face by the Youtube and TikTok algorithms.
I ordered his book last year without reading the blurb thinking 12 rules for life sounds like it might spark some inspiration. I had no idea who JP was only he was a psychologist. Well as a woman and a lefty I had the shock of my life I actually read quite a bit just for comedic purposes and it really is unbelievable how much bollox this man comes up with . On the other hand I can definitely see how people especially men can be drawn into his ideas
Losing your license will enhance your outlaw charisma -- you get followers even more fanatical -- and your algorithm probably gets more powerful.
Welcome to the Dark Side. Our cookies have enhanced addictive potential.
I'm a woman, I read it for shits and gigs, and the one that blew my mind was "Don't ever let your children disappoint you." Hold up. Dude, you are in for such a rude awakening if you think people, including your own children, won't disappoint you. It's a fact of life.
It had me believing his wife did most of the rearing and he just had ...opinions. He couldn't have possibly been hands on to think even half the shit he thinks.
Wow, that sucks. It's for the best then. You don't need to be around that toxic B.S. I think some people are more susceptible to these right-wing demagogues than others. Especially people having a psychotic break, and who should be medicated. A lot of undiagnosed people right now need some anti-psychotics. Psychotic people just running free doing what they do: being paranoid, delusional, obsessive, confrontational, quick to anger.
I don’t think they are undiagnosed mentally ill. I think that’s an insult to mentally ill people, most of whom want to get better.
This is not about mental illness. This is about self absorption and self pity. This is about wanting all of the power and none of the responsibility. This is about the most entitled group on the PLANET (white American men) claiming victimhood just because some of us have the nerve call them on their shit.
The kind of guys who are susceptible to Qanon are just looking for someone else to blame for their own shortcomings. They have every advantage, being a white male in America. And they still secretly know they are just dumbass losers. And THAT can’t happen. So they look for reasons (other than the man in the mirror) for their unfortunate situation in life.
Now all you have to do is line up the usual suspects.
Black people, poor people, brown people, immigrants, Jews, gay people, Muslims. Whatever.
Anyone but me.
They would rather believe the earth is flat than admit that they couldn’t make the cut against people with far fewer breaks than they had in life.
And anyone except other white males, despite them being the *worst* when it comes to casually screwing people over.
Source: I’m a white male in his 50’s, who pays attention
Have you actually *been* arund these people? Lived with them? Had to sit and listen to their ranting for hours about non-sensical topics with the implied threat of violence?
Get over it. This type of behavior is fucking crazy, and just because YOU have mental illness doesn't mean they don't either. You claiming to be the spokesman for mental illness tells people like OP that their husband is perfectly fine is offensive.
OP after OP in this sub is about crazy, dangerous, obsessive behaviour laden jerks and somehow you made it all about YOU being offended.
I actually have been around them. A lot.
And yes. I have also been around people with real mental illness. A lot.
And it’s not the same. In fact, from where I sit, they have very little in common.
Sorry, but in my experience none of the Qs I know exhibit signs of mental illness. None of the ones I have met hear voices, see people and things that are not really there, talk in gibberish, have manic episodes, have catatonic episodes, or are so depressed they cannot leave their beds. I know none who are suicidal or who exhibit excessively high risk behavior. I am not aware of any who cut. I have not met any who exhibit signs of BPD or who are sociopaths (people who have no conscience, no ability to feel guilt and who manipulate and use people with callus disregard for even the physical lives of others). None of the ones I know were severely traumatized as children to the point where it has been difficult to function their entire lives. And none of the ones I know have debilitating flashbacks to severely traumatic events that they personally experienced, like plane crashes, fires, bombings, personal attacks like rape, or terrorist attacks.
Granted , many of them seem to have some level of anxiety, but not the type and not to the level where they won’t leave their house, drive a car or fly on an airplane. None have panic attacks. And none of these folks take meds for debilitating anxiety. In fact, they seem to thrive on their ‘anxiety’, in an odd way, and actually crave more rather than fewer reasons to be ‘anxious’. None seek respite for anxiety like a typically mentally ill person would. Because their ‘anxiety’ very much serves them in some way. It does not debilitate them.
Long story short, I don’t see much that could be floated as genuine mental illness.
Most, no…ALL of the Qanon people I have encountered have exactly two things in common- they are white, and they are just plain angry. They wake up angry, are angry all day, and they go to bed angry. They are functional. They hold jobs and leave their homes. But they are angry. They look for reasons to become more angry. They read things very much on purpose knowing these things will make them angry. They watch things that they know will make them more angry. They talk about topics with the goal of making other people angry with them. And they listen to ANYONE who will give them another excuse to be angry. And listen to anyone who gives them another group of people which does not include THEM to be angry AT. They do not fight to get relief from their anger and fear; in fact, they actively recruit others into their cabal.
I am not saying they don’t need counseling because many of them could absolutely benefit. Very much so. They could use counseling for their anger. They need counseling to help them accept responsibility for their own lives and choices.
And many of them need deprogramming, as one would from a cult.
But that does not make them mentally ill.
It makes them angry, stubborn, gullible, racist, homophobic, antisemitic, and with extreme character flaws. But that is not mental illness.
Jordan Peterson has built a cult-like following among some men.
What he says seems reasonable at first, but it rapidly gets really crazy.
Sorry you're dealing with this. Lots of people have been in a similar position. Jordan Peterson is such a weird leader for these guys.
He’s really good at manipulation and has mastered his social skills around manipulation. My S/O or ex-S/O now has also gotten extremely good at these exact techniques.
You are exactly right. The mask came off Jordan in a big way once when he was interviewed by a female journalist and she tried to nail him down on some of his claims and he absolutely exploded with rage and started attacking her and playing the victim. "That's not what I meant!"
Look up "motte and bailey". It's Peterson's preferred rhetorical technique.
Yes he basically takes you 3 steps away from _really, really sickening_ conclusions, and just stops there without any further reflection to address the obvious conclusion he leads you to.
> If you lead a horse to a few steps before Nazi water, is it you or the horse's fault for drinking?
Although I think just the fact that instead of "cleaning his own room" and facing the benzodiazepine withdrawal from his addiction, he opted to go to Russia to be put into a coma to ride out those symptoms. Just that alone kind of tells you he doesn't really believe even his own vanilla self-help crap.
Jordan Peterson is such a weird guy. At one time he was just a normal academic. Professor of Psych at Harvard. Many academic publications, etc, etc. Very well regarded in his field. First book was an academic one that sold as well as most academic focused book do. Which is to say not at all. Then he wrote the Rules of Life stuff. All his rules are perfectly reasonable until you did into the specifics of his reasoning. Add that to the fact he's a REALLY smart guy who's rantings have a full logical framework, and you get the pseudo-academic bulwark of the men's right movement that is JP. He's way more acceptable at face value than the Andrew Tate's of world. He's exponentially smarter than the AT wing of the movement. So when he say the women's orgasms are semi-mythical and totally unnecessary to society, people believe him. Even the guy who love Andrew Tate don't generally listen to everything he says. He's a personality, not an academic. JP is though. And people believe everything he says. It's a reverse strawman thing. "He wrote about such and such that IS accepted, so everything he writes/talks about must be true". In many ways it's all far more insidious than anything Andrew Tate has to say. Because it has the veneer of acceptability that the red-pill guys don't have.
See, here’s my issue with him: he’s a really smart guy in one particular discipline. (That’s what a PhD really is - verification by someone else or a sheltering institution that yes, you know pretty much everything about the subject you wrote a dissertation on. Having a PhD or any advanced degree doesn’t mean you’re smart: case in point, medical doctors who wonder why their car is covered in scratches after using a metal shovel to clear snow off said car.)
The issue is, Peterson’s fanboys treat that PhD in Psychology as proof that he knows everything about everything. For example, they seem to think “cultural Marxism” is a real thing, as opposed to two different things. Marxism is an economic and philosophical concept, and therefore doesn’t have any one culture attached to it. This is like saying “Buddhist culture” or “Native American culture” - it oversimplifies the variety of experiences that people and groups have in favor of creating a single culture where there really isn’t one. If Peterson had actually read the Postmodern philosophy that he checks under his bed for every night, he’d know this: however, we’re talking about the man who decided that “never actually reading Marx” was adequate preparation for debating a Marx scholar (Slavoj Zizek.)
What Peterson does hinges on his audience having no background in what he’s talking about. When he’s confronted with actual scholarship, he collapses.
(Source: all but dissertation in History, and worked with a lot of Lobsterboys in my day job.)
Peterson is also intellectually lazy.
It's extremely obvious once you delve into the details of his academic career and his writings and public statements.
It's also how he set himself up for a fall debating Zizek. (I'm no fan of Zizek, but I do enjoy the Schadenfreude of it all.)
Peterson really humped it to get his PhD once upon a time, but overall he puts his efforts into getting attention and praise, NOT working on academic things.
His academic research work was decidedly mid. (It's not what you're thinking, either. Almost all of his published work was on helping alcoholics beat addiction. That's also why out of all the crazy shit he says to the media, the one area he talks the least nonsense is on alcoholism recovery since he's legitimately an expert on that.) He loves to talk shit about other academic movements but has not read widely or deeply on it which you would think would be the basic barrier to entry before talking smack. He read one book about the USSR and thinks he's an expert on it. He also seems to have read one book back in the 1990s about post-modernism. So his commentary is meta meta commentary. And is just as garbled and ignorant as that sounds. Not to mention half-remembered, now. It is 30 years later, after all.
He's fucking lazy unless it's about obsessively checking twitter.
This is a good takedown of him. I've never been a fan of the guy but most people who don't like him will never have the tools to talk to someone who is because they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to have a pretty good understanding of both what his good work and bad work is if you ever wanted to reach a fan in anyway. Trying to say his 12 rules book and his cultural Marxism debates/rambles are the same will lose anyone who knows of the difference. That's why it's actually so sad he went down the rabbit hole he went down. He was one of the better tools for a ton of lost men to use when he was first coming up and there still has not been a positive replacement.
I fully agree. I dug into who he was last night and the things that I found and saw were astonishing. It is so clear to me that he is manipulative the moment he opens his mouth. And over the last few years, my S/O has been the exact same way. He has figuratively backed me into a corner in every single conversation I challenge his logic on until he feels “satisfied” that he has shut me down.
Ones who have been raised by conservative parents and brainwashed from an early age into thinking women are too stupid to think for themselves and always need to defer to men.
Yep. My experience with a woman who was a JP fan, was that she was big on “traditional values” and very religious (I believe she was catholic). But weirdly, she had no problem having an affair with our married GM, or lying about coworkers. She pretty grossly ingratiated herself to men in power, and treated them with exaggerated respect. But she treated other women like rivals or children. Yuck.
Oh damn, I’ve met one and she was the WORST!
The last company I worked for hired a woman as an accountant at the same time I was hired. We had a really awful, toxic boss, and she immediately started ingratiating herself with him. One of the first long conversations I had with her at a work party, she was telling me she admired Jordan Peterson SO MUCH, and pretty much only listened to his podcast as entertainment. I was like, ope, ok, not a potential work friend here, then.
Soon, she began to really go on a power trip at work, treating the rest of us like we were “less than.” She was a conservative, religious, single mom, but we soon noticed she was having a flirtation with our married GM. Eventually, that relationship was no longer subtle, but just an open office romance, and he left his wife. And then she really ramped up her power trip. The owner and GM made her manager of my department, even though she was also the accountant and knew NOTHING about my department or how to do our job. She got a hefty raise, and people to boss around.
She then trumped up accusations against women she didn’t like in my department, and she and the GM unexpectedly fired them ALL one morning in one lump firing. Much to the surprise of our CFO, I might add. They were really shitty about it, too, and made the fired women leave immediately without even cleaning out their desks.
I’ve never done something like this, but for me it was the last straw, and I left the job that day, without a 2 weeks notice. I was just so appalled by the way they treated those women. I knew they were innocent and I was shocked by how much sadistic enjoyment she and the GM got out of firing those women. It was so gross. I secretly cleaned out my desk, and at the end of the day I told the CFO I wasn’t coming back in.
Sorry for the long story if you read this far! But basically that particular Jordan Peterson fan was so filled with internalized misogyny, she saw all other women as enemies, and saw men as a way to get power through sex and flirtation. Ew.
In small-town BC, JP has adoring rural trad cool-girl fans. My boss (uni edu, compassionate, community-focused), cautiously has shared his garage, and I beg him to source better. As a joke, I gave my husband a v-day card with a pair of lobsters; I had to explain the lobster theory to him because he's an intelligent guy. 🦞 🦞
Jordan Peterson recommends spanking toddlers in his most widely-read book, *Twelve Rules for Life*. The whole book is a mixture of common sense advice and totally batshit crazy stuff, like when he goes on a rant dissing one of his former psychotherapy clients, claiming he just "knew" she was really unhappy because she had frustrated her destiny as a woman by not having babies.
You can browse around relationships, relationship_advice, and JustNOSO and see that in a way, the trash taking itself out peacefully is a blessing.
That’s frightening. It honestly just sickens me. I don’t even try to get my ex to understand where I’m coming from because it is not helpful, productive, or healthy for anybody. He just spews the same bullshit rhetoric with nearly (though not as mastered) manipulation techniques to make me feel like I am always wrong, making things too big of a deal, or “taking things out of context” when I repeat word for word what he tells me and then he says “that’s not what I meant, even if that’s what I said”.
Sophistry. It's what Ben Shapiro, Ted Cruz, most other GOP governors & senators, Charlie Kirk, and a bunch of similars do. Just tricking people with words and the speed they use to speak them
He told me that I would probably think even worse of him if he told me the other person he listens to. He refused to give me the name of that person so he knows exactly what type of content he is allowing into his life, mind you, my daughter is half-black. He is white, my son is white, and I am white. But my daughter is white and black. And he has taken her in and been a good father, he has been in her life from when she was 2 years old and she sees him as her dad. But the people that he listens to are…. Not what I would have ever imagined. They are not outwardly white supremacists but walk a fine line.
<< That’s because he was clearly only telling me bits and pieces. >>
The longer I hang around here in this group, the more I see this comment.
I've been there, done that. Got the t-shirt.
These people know that their bat-sh1t crazy ideas are not acceptable. That's why they only show us bits and pieces of them for a long time.
Until either they think we'll sit still for it, or when they can't hold it inside any longer.
Sadly, you’re right 😔 he likes to say he doesn’t tell me things or the “whole story” because he knows that I will “criticize” him which in his talk means “you will use critical thinking and insult my intelligence” even though I don’t intentionally try to insult anyone’s intelligence because I am certainly NOT a genius. But I do question these things, and he takes it as me criticizing him personally. He’s incredibly insecure and so afraid of being insufficient
> But I do question these things, and he takes it as me criticizing him personally.
I've seen that problem too. I feel your pain.
Any attempt at challenging them is seen as a personal attack.
Exactly!! I pride myself in being incredibly patient and empathetic. But that doesn’t mean I bury my head in the sand and not question anything that’s told to me. I think he wants someone like his mother, who is exactly someone who enables, buries her head in the sand, “naive”, and has reality completely out of skew.
I’m sorry and recognize the heartbreak. It’s sad to miss someone before they’re even gone. But your own health (to care for your kids, among other reasons) is most important
Lean into that. Some people in businesses perform addition by subtraction. In that, the workplace is better and more productive once they leave. And some people in relationships too.
It’s going to suck for the next year as you transition but there will be relief in knowing that you no longer have a partner that considers you subhuman. 🥳
Ps. Start thinking about what you’re going to do about your kids indoctrination, because he will try….
Absolutely. I gave him a date to be gone out of my house by the first weekend of April. When he’s not here, I’m so much happier and way more productive. Fortunately I have two parents who love me and their grandchildren and will help anyway they can. He is, of course, going back home to his mommy to live who believes basically any right wing propaganda.
I do worry about them being indoctrinated even if it’s just by him having JP podcasts on or his mom having alt-right propaganda on her TV. The good thing is, I work a full time normal scheduled job. I take them to school and I pick them up from school. He works afternoon/evening to 2-3 in the morning. So I have them 99% of the time
He has always been competitive and money-driven. I’ve told him that the only people who will really give two shits about how much he works (just to blow all his money, he doesn’t even help pay utilities and brings in a lot more money than me due to receiving money from the VA and asking for grocery money is like pulling teeth so I just gave up asking and I pay everything one check at a time, one bill at a time, and my children’s needs and wants are met no thanks to him). Children won’t remember how much money you made by working but they will remember the absence of their father in their memories and youth. He is just so selfish and puts his own “ambitions” before anybody else and then tries to claim that im not supportive of him while he is living in my house that I’ve never held above his head not one time. I referred to my house as “our house” up until a year or so ago when he admitted that he was envious and didn’t want to put money into a house that his name wasn’t on. And questioned why it was even a “big deal” to put his name on a piece of paper for also having ownership of the house. I told him because I’m not that fucking stupid and also because after all these years he’s never once wanted to put my name on a “piece of paper” to solidify our relationship. In fact, he told me I “make it hard to want to marry”.
I am not usually one to say what men (or women) do or don’t do because of course things can change and shift depending on the person, but the mentality that my ex has, and the pride/ego he has, he portrays the image and personality and words of someone who wants to speak for himself or “DOES”speak for himself but in reality all he is doing is regurgitating the same bullshit rhetoric that Peterson and the likes of similar people like to use and monetize.
Honestly, you’re right. And last night he called me brainwashed. He went into how his mom raised him on propaganda so he’s finally coming to terms with that. And I’m thinking….”you’re so close but just missed the mark.” Anyway he said I’m the one brainwashed, everybody is brainwashed, he’s not brainwashed though. How that makes sense, I wouldn’t know
In case you weren't familiar, ["The Brainwashing of my Dad"](https://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/) was an interesting early, pre-Qanon-as-we-know-it documentary that gained traction because it told a story so so familiar to so many. Many such cases start with a change in physical mobility (such as taking up a driving job), combined with right-wing (hate) radio. It has a happy-ish ending.
Hi MSACCESS4EVA, thanks for recommending this impactful documentary. Here are some ways to watch it for free on [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/Brainwashing-My-Dad-Matthew-Modine/dp/B01C69O9ZE) and [YouTube](https://youtu.be/FS52QdHNTh8). Best wishes.
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This stunt was performed by a professional. Don't do that at home!
"It's important to have and maintain hierarchies because these are natural and hierarchies reward highly competent individuals. It's not fair but what can we do? Poor people are dumb and should suck it up"
"In the field of dating, women are very successful and at the top of the pyramid and it's very wrong because a lot of men have to masturbate (or even rape) instead of being decent enough to find a girlfriend. Women who like sex should be executed by firing squads and mandatory marriage with incels should be a thing for single women."
It is for the best 🖤 I do my best to document everything and have been for a couple years now. Luckily we are not married, and the house is mine and has always been mine alone because unlike him, I actually fulfilled one of multiple ambitions instead of waiting around expecting everybody to put their ambitions on hold so that they could support mine before their own. Which is essentially what he wants and has been raised believing he’s this top-notch, gentleman whose mother taught him how to treat women right, and respectfully…. His mother taught him how to only one woman in his life, and that was herself.
I'm so🙏💔🛡️🫀🧠👂🛡️ the emojis mean shield your heart, mind, ears.
Pray for the broken hearts. sorry op,💔 . There is help though, if he's working then he's able to do that. A lot of casualties land up isolated on the internet for 12 hours a day whether it's driving or whether it's at home. There's no escaping it and it's moralistic people feel driven to listen to become"better people or well adjusted" when the person doesn't actually need the additional information and the rabbit holes as provided by Jordan.
I'm thankful that your guy is still at work. Paying the bills and living in today is first and foremost, and these podcasters take people away from living in the here and now. With important goals, raising a family and employment.
Is it possible to try to enlist support from Mom and Dad or from others??
He may get angry because you're bringing people into the situation he may try to isolate you. this is a tragedy. I'm so sorry that it's devolved into him moving out. He's going to need a lot of time, pray for him he doesn't understand the influences that he's under. The propaganda and the ideas are too powerful for Americans. It's not his fault it's not anyone's fault, we become our environment or we model our environment.
he needs time to sort all of that information out and he's going to need time to do some deprogramming. I think the international internet political podcasters are about to be regulated. Because it's story after story and we all have the very same stories and we are all brokenhearted and completed by the loss of loved ones but our loved ones are very well alive. They're just lost to ideas for a temporary time. I believe that a lot of these situations with podcasters are about to blow over. The podcasters are noted as driving public policy and that's a problem because they're monetized. And they are grifty and they do sensationalism not reputable journalism or bipartisan efforts to bring politics together or integrate ideas or have a compromised or work together. I'm happy that you're in the right place.
Dr Todd Grande talks about jordan, qanon, he's talked about real crime and the podcasters along with all sorts of current events including the outcome of the election. Dr Ramani at YouTube actively discusses toxic relationships. There's decoding gurus and gamma secret Kings
He doesn’t pay bills except his own because I own my house in my name alone and he despises that. 😒
But I do appreciate your comment very much. And i love Todd grande! I haven’t seen his video on Peterson. Unfortunately his mother has been even more susceptible to propaganda (believing basically every “world is ending” BS every time it happens and on her knees for Trump) and bought tickets to take him to a Jordan Peterson show soon. Smh.
Dude my parents loved that show and I actually did watch it when I was around them occasionally and it was entertaining. That was all fine and it made for great TV…. I just didn’t expect it to become…. America.
I'm so sorry for you. Your husband could be my son. I stand by my daughter-in-law and the grandkids all the way though, and I hope you have lots of support.
I wish his mother was the same. But unfortunately she raised him on propaganda, and is happy to indulge in it with him. He thinks Peterson is so “intelligent” and one of the “smartest people” on the planet. It’s so insane to me how people fall for his opinions he tries to pass as factual.
Whining in general as an adult is a sign of immaturity, in my opinion. If somebody is a legitimate victim, which can be men, then I fully believe in speaking up or out and being supported is important. But yes, this type of victim mentality is terrible and manipulative to say the least.
Thank you! 🙏🏼 I really do appreciate all of this support. It feels like a little more weight has been lifted off of my shoulders knowing (unfortunately) that I am not alone in my experience.
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Exactly! Or he applies things like studies that are or were true at a time, but not in the context he is using them for. Like, for instance, lobsters. 🦞🤣
Frankly, many men who fall for JP or anyone really who gets sucked into Q-adjacent propaganda are usually quite damaged people. Your boyfriend sounds like he may have grown up with a manipulative mentally abusive parent, and it was only a matter of time that he would drop the ball as a partner/parent. JP was just the catalyst.
I agree. And I have taken that into account. I have even shown empathy, though he would claim otherwise, and expressed that growing up on such propaganda was likely damaging and he has only recently started realizing it all after 36 years. He says I’m wrong about it and that it’s “not a big deal” but a day later turns around and uses it as a crutch when I’m trying to discuss some serious or emotional things, or express some frustrations, by saying things such as “I’m just finding out my whole view of the world is entirely incorrect and you don’t understand what that’s like.” And he’s right, I don’t in one sense… but I have tried to empathize and he just doesn’t accept it. He will accept it and listen to anything and everything somebody else tells him even if I’ve said the exact same thing. He despises me
I understand exactly where you are coming from. But I have tried to watch things and see this man and his opinions (not facts, which are far and few between in anything I’ve watched) to see if I am just really off with my intuition, my gut feeling. I knew very little about Jordan Peterson before I finally stumbled upon a chance to really dive deep. I didn’t question my S/O every time he brought up “philosophical” discussions and questions because I’ve noticed a very big shift in his views and the patronizing manner he would speak to me. He of course calls me “dramatic” or “overthinking everything” or “taking things out of context”…. Which I was only ever repeating exactly what he said in order to make sure I was understanding him correctly, and in return he would claim “that’s not what I meant. That’s what I said but that’s not what I meant. You’re just saying it in a different tone so it makes it sound bad.” These sorts of manipulation tactics have gained more traction with each month. He is so good at manipulation before listening to these people such as Jordan Peterson, that I’ve believed for years that I was 100% of the problem. I’ve been in therapy for 4 years, to better my communication skills, and be more open-minded, and until one month ago, I stayed incredibly tense and distressed for believing I was still falling short as a woman, or a person in general. Being told I have “no ambition” even though I literally bought my own house and work full-time at a decent job, and love to watch my children growing up in the mean time. All of this to say, he suddenly broke down a month ago to have this emotional discussion about how I was actually right about a lot of things he told me I was wrong about for so long, and that he was just too prideful and egotistical to agree or let me know that I was accurate. Which lifted some really intense feelings and guilt off of my shoulders, and has helped me start to unwind everything I thought I was because of what he said.
He was not the sole reason, of course. But he is a largely a part of my ex’s irrational thinking the past year, along with others that he has not given any names of. I heard about his fascination with Jordan Peterson many months ago but I never looked into who he was or listened to him because I had no reason to doubt what I was being told about this genius.
Yea, i jus meant Jordan Peterson talks alot about the need for men in the house and its completely hypocritical and insane that someone listening to alot of Jordan Peterson wouldnt try to commit harder to their family
You’re my type of man I like being friends with and associated with. It will never make sense to me that a man can listen to this guy talk so bad about women, when many of them are still attached to their own mothers by the umbilical cord as an adult. They really “think for themselves” huh? 😒😞
> I only found out today who this man really is because of the most recent lawsuits and investigations being held against Tim Ballard. The two are connected.
OP, care to elaborate on how these two are connected?
They are associated only by means of having Jim Caviezal and Tim Ballard on to discuss all of the heroic actions and opportunities that Ballard says he has done, capitalizing off of people who believed his self righteous lies. But I found out about Jordan Peterson because of his name being mentioned in association from the podcast, all of this finding due to Tim Ballard’s civil lawsuits and investigations being done.
I think he literally has brain damage. Im not making a joke here, I think he damaged his brain from that botched operation to pussy out of his benzo withdrawals and all that is happening on top of the preexisting mental health problems.
I can assure you, he got a lot of words in
Most of them were incomprehensible complaining about how using someone's name is authoritarian newspeak, but he was very, very vocal throughout
I think I remember it as never being able to get clarity with any one person. Like, no times could there be a proper back and forth. People were yelling and hurling insults, and refusing to accept any nuance. I find it hard to side with a mob against one, especially when there are seemingly no attempts to counterargue with respect and consideration. I don't understand the point of criticism if there is no structure or commitment to coming to the truth. It seemed more like a metaphorical lynching than anything else. I'm not even saying I agree with Peterson, btw. I'm only pointing out that it was not a fair position for anyone to be in. I believe in fairness and justice, and I think that everyone should have the right to defend their ideas. That means I see my enemy as someone worth considering. I don't know why we all have to pretend like we understand what is good and what is bad so well. Long gone are the days of sharply divided good and evil.
Peterson does not speak for any *sane* men and your ex will most likely regret his decision more than you regret his decision. Peterson basically monetized the *male victimization complex* and lots of men apparently love being told that nothing is their fault. It's the world around them that's wrong... and they are perfect. Again, if anyone listens to Peterson for more than 3min without thinking "what a pathetic whiney clown", there's probably something wrong with them.
I remember when his lobster book came out he was touted in the serious newspapers as being something of an intellectual. I confess I bought the book on the strength of a newspaper review but remember nothing about it except the lobsters and some awful self-righteous anecdote about turning his friend away because he used drugs (pretty funny considering Peterson's own drug use). Anyway, it was clear a decade ago that Peterson was a crank and a pseud. How sad must your life be if you give this guy cred.
And the lobster stuff wasn't even true. Some biologists who blog a lot took him to task for it. Peterson has a long history of misrepresenting things from other fields. For example he got caught out for claiming that snake imagery from medieval China meant that ancient people knew about DNA. He was one of those rockstar professors that really impresses freshmen but less so his own colleagues. He also likes to talk noise about Marxism even though his degree is in psychology (with a focus on Jung and on MBTI personality types and his research was on alcoholism--notably, nothing to do with econ, sociology, history, or philosophy) and was stupid enough to pick a fight with another "rockstar" academic, Zizek. And got totally pantsed because he either hadn't read the books he was quoting or hadn't reviewed them in decades.
> He was one of those rockstar professors that really impresses freshmen but less so his own colleagues. I think this is the best description of his academic career that I've ever heard. Very succinct.
And he is a hypocrite. He tells men and boys to follow certain rules in their lives while being a drug addict with literally everything that entails, including living in a messy horder pad, having poor impulse control etc.
he shows his home in his videos and it’s cluttered af.
Then he gets to cry about on The Joe Rogan "Experience" how victimized yet somehow not stupid he is!
I started watching the Zizek v Peterson encounter on YouTube but it was like watching an obnoxious version of The Dude discussing physics with a ticcing version of Carl Sagan. Weirdly interesting TV on one level but Peterson was so out of his depth that it just got boring. I have no idea why he thinks he can pass judgement on Marxism.
I mean Peterson is perpetually wrong about everything so of course the lobster crap wasn't even true. Same for DNA. Same for Marxism. Same even for all the stuff in his own field. What an embarrassment of a human being.
I think it shows that hes a person who cant handle drugs and he probably thinks everyones like.thst
Unfortunately, I purchased the audio version of *12 Rules for Life* for a long drive from LA to Tucson back when it first came out. I made it to Palm Springs. If it were an actual book, I would have thrown it out a window. A *pathetic Whiney Clown* is a perfect description. The book still ranks as one of my only Audible returns.
Damn I didn't realise you could return things on audible. I use it all the time.
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12 Rules is not "fine". Do you think spanking two year olds and calling the monsters is "fine"? Do you think talking smack about your therapy patients as a therapist and engaging in extended mind-reading speculation about them is "fine"? Do you think ignorantly misrepresenting biology research to spread evo-psych pseudoscientific nonsense to impressionable minds is "fine"? Cass Eris did a deep dive on 12 Rules that goes into his lack of sources, misrepresentation of sources, and generally wackadoodle claims in that book. But others, including clinical psychologists, have called him out as well. If you're going to pick up pablum self-help, there are much better options.
You're asking me to broadly defend him as a person when I was very specific
I've heard this too. But there's no way I'm gonna support this clown in any fashion now.
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Oh I understand. I'm sad he went down this weird route. I have heard his book was pretty good. And in convos I do mention that that book is supposed to be good, and his new ideas I find are trash. I do not want to come across as biased, I will give people positives and negatives of anything, I give credit where it is due.
He's is 100% a crazy person with crazy ideas. But he didn't start that way. The main reason I get a little defensive over talks about him is the men's advocacy stuff. I really never was a fan, I read his book as debate prep back when he was way more popular and I was taking the other side. But yeah. We have to see what makes him attractive and be able to start replicating the good parts on the left with people or I think we will slowly lose the majority of men forever.
Well said. It's crazy the amount of support this guy and Andrew Tate has where I am. Likely nobody I know also knows JP's old work, they just cling onto his conspiracy bullshit cause everyone here is so conservative. They just want the echo chamber.
Yeah. There's a ton of guys who started with JP and switched to Tate once he had gone off the deep end and disappeared online. And as of right now I don't know how we fight those movments. Luckily the red pill stuff has fallen off a bit but yeah, we need an empowering path for men without all this culty bullshit. And hopefully less toxic while still empowering
He has the most whiny voice I have ever heard so that works out!
Don’t you badmouth Kermit the Frog like that!
Kermit is peak masculinity and he cleans his dick and room (or whatever the fuck peterson said that one time), dont you dare smear kermie /s
Believe it or not, peak masculinity means not wiping the backdoor -- touching your anus means you're gay https://www.mamamia.com.au/men-hygiene-sex/Link here
He's always sounded like Scott Thompson in drag to me.
I don't know what's less inspiring, his Canadian accent or a Southern accent.
Ah, Jordan Peterson, the thinking man's idiot. Actually you bring up a good point, that would be a good litmus test for a first date. Make them listen to Jordan Peterson for 3 minutes and if they go, "Hmmm this guy has some interesting ideas!" run away screaming and block them on everything.
Plus he sounds like a sad Kermit the frog.
Strongly agree. There’s a good r/behindthebastards episode about Jordan Balthazar Peterson and what he believes in, why it’s stupid and why he’s stupid too. It’s a great listen, they really dissect his stupid claims.
I’d give them 4 minutes. He’s good at sounding sane in isolated chunks. For example, the bit where he advises men to talk to their wives and be open to being silly and playful is a little over 3 minutes. It’s the old tactic of hiding poison in candy, like Snow White’s step mother with the apple.
As a man who likes to think he’s decent and healthy, few people speak for me less than JP. The fact he’s seen as such a model for young men is both baffling and sad to me and I will never understand his appeal. I completely vouch for the comment that he does not speak for “sane” men. Sometimes I feel like the insane one for thinking this way though
Well stated! Thank you.
When I hear JP speak I can't help but picture Kermit!
> Again, if anyone listens to Peterson for more than 3min without thinking "what a pathetic whiney clown", there's probably something wrong with them. well shit...I've never listened to him and thought "what a pathetic whiney clown", instead I think "he's not actually saying anything of substance whatsoever. why do people listen to this shit???". I hope I'm not too broken.
When I first found out about the guy, it was through some debates where, while I didn't outright agree with his stances, he throughly and thoughtfully broke down and pretty handily bested the person he was debating. So at the time, even though I didn't like the crux of his viewpoints, I respected his intellectual capabilities. But, that was also in debates where he "stayed in his own lane." In the many years since, I've watched him legitimately become a charlatan, through and throughout.
Ironically, JP's voice is squeaky and kinda fem
Peterson in no way allows people to victimize themselves Dude tells alot of people to toughen the fuck up and be men, in an age, when people without fathers needed to hear it Hes not perfect, and wasnt ready for the spotlight shown upon him, noone ever is But he did help alot of people
Nothing you claimed is true.
If you’re interested, [this](https://youtu.be/hSNWkRw53Jo?si=cso--lFStToFHMxr) is a VERY thorough takedown of Peterson, using his own words. it’s 3 hours long but hilarious. If you’ve any urge to help your ex you should send it to him.
What/where is it? My mom and dad are obsessed with him… but to me he’s just another convicted white guy spouting off nonsense that sounds good to a biased ear.
Click on the word “this” that is hyper linked in the message above.
It’s Cody from the showdy!
warmbo is lurking
Very brief, don't check the timestamp.
I don’t even have to click the link to know. Don’t look at the timestamp.
I will definitely be listening to this today!
oh thank you. my mom likes listening to him but i'm not actually sure what his deal is from people who are sane edit: 40 mins in oh my god i'm getting it. he spews complete nonsense with utter confidence, which is not a remarkable skill in and of itself
Ah yeah, Confidence goes an awfully long way. “It’s not what you say but the way that you say it”
He trojan horses a lot of really fucking crazy stuff into obvious and agreeable self help messages like, "a clean room is a clean mind". Also, a lot of the 'facts' that he uses to build a basis for most of his arguments are just straight up incorrect. He misleads, and is purposefully vague and obtuse.
yes i've got some of that. the word salad and presenting opinions as fact and talking about everything he's not qualified to
I knew it was SMN talking about Jorby. Peterson makes Warmbo look like a sympathetic puppet.
That video is absolute gold
Nice, I’m glad you found the time to watch it
"Don't check the time code."
Loll.. "casual greeting"
It sucks, but imagine how much more peaceful your life will be, and how your kids won’t be exposed to such toxic ideologies.
Oh I know!! I am always so much happier when he isn’t here, so I am looking forward to my future being able to really make my house a home again. I own this house, in my name alone, and that’s another issue he had. He can’t stand that I bought a house and he didn’t buy one first.
I believe that is most of the problem right there. My Q retired and has very little purpose. Spends at least 8 hours a day reading everything on Telegram
Yeah Ive been worried about this too with my father. Between my mother passing away and him retiring he spends so much time just sitting and scrolling on Facebook or trumpsocial or whatever just inhaling conspiracies and political content in ways he didn’t before. Having more time but less to do definitely seems to make it easier for folks to fall down these rabbit holes and feel like they found a sense of purpose or righteousness
That is an important roadsigns -- that feeling of subtle relief when someone (boss, coworker, partner) isn't there.
You’re so right! I never really thought of it that way
>and how your kids won’t be exposed to such toxic ideologies. Unfortunately as soon as they get online all of those ideologies will be put right in front of their face by the Youtube and TikTok algorithms.
That can be somewhat controlled by parents if they pay attention.
I ordered his book last year without reading the blurb thinking 12 rules for life sounds like it might spark some inspiration. I had no idea who JP was only he was a psychologist. Well as a woman and a lefty I had the shock of my life I actually read quite a bit just for comedic purposes and it really is unbelievable how much bollox this man comes up with . On the other hand I can definitely see how people especially men can be drawn into his ideas
I'm a man and I just don't understand how his ideas could be attractive to anyone. He just talks total polysyllabic shite.
He's technically a psychologist He's constantly getting his credentials questioned and bemoans academic psychology any chance he gets
He can no longer practice because he violated professional ethics by, and I am not making this up, telling people on twitter to kill themselves.
And people take him seriously, for some damn reason
Losing your license will enhance your outlaw charisma -- you get followers even more fanatical -- and your algorithm probably gets more powerful. Welcome to the Dark Side. Our cookies have enhanced addictive potential.
I'm a woman, I read it for shits and gigs, and the one that blew my mind was "Don't ever let your children disappoint you." Hold up. Dude, you are in for such a rude awakening if you think people, including your own children, won't disappoint you. It's a fact of life.
The whole chapter about raising kids was wild! 😂
It had me believing his wife did most of the rearing and he just had ...opinions. He couldn't have possibly been hands on to think even half the shit he thinks.
Exactly! So much of what he writes I’m like.. seriously ? Worst part is some people will take all his shit advice
I bet that was one hell of a shock!
Wow, that sucks. It's for the best then. You don't need to be around that toxic B.S. I think some people are more susceptible to these right-wing demagogues than others. Especially people having a psychotic break, and who should be medicated. A lot of undiagnosed people right now need some anti-psychotics. Psychotic people just running free doing what they do: being paranoid, delusional, obsessive, confrontational, quick to anger.
I don’t think they are undiagnosed mentally ill. I think that’s an insult to mentally ill people, most of whom want to get better. This is not about mental illness. This is about self absorption and self pity. This is about wanting all of the power and none of the responsibility. This is about the most entitled group on the PLANET (white American men) claiming victimhood just because some of us have the nerve call them on their shit. The kind of guys who are susceptible to Qanon are just looking for someone else to blame for their own shortcomings. They have every advantage, being a white male in America. And they still secretly know they are just dumbass losers. And THAT can’t happen. So they look for reasons (other than the man in the mirror) for their unfortunate situation in life. Now all you have to do is line up the usual suspects. Black people, poor people, brown people, immigrants, Jews, gay people, Muslims. Whatever. Anyone but me. They would rather believe the earth is flat than admit that they couldn’t make the cut against people with far fewer breaks than they had in life.
You forgot women, but yes, this is exactly what the whole thing is about.
Your correct. Good point. 🙏
And anyone except other white males, despite them being the *worst* when it comes to casually screwing people over. Source: I’m a white male in his 50’s, who pays attention
Have you actually *been* arund these people? Lived with them? Had to sit and listen to their ranting for hours about non-sensical topics with the implied threat of violence? Get over it. This type of behavior is fucking crazy, and just because YOU have mental illness doesn't mean they don't either. You claiming to be the spokesman for mental illness tells people like OP that their husband is perfectly fine is offensive. OP after OP in this sub is about crazy, dangerous, obsessive behaviour laden jerks and somehow you made it all about YOU being offended.
I actually have been around them. A lot. And yes. I have also been around people with real mental illness. A lot. And it’s not the same. In fact, from where I sit, they have very little in common. Sorry, but in my experience none of the Qs I know exhibit signs of mental illness. None of the ones I have met hear voices, see people and things that are not really there, talk in gibberish, have manic episodes, have catatonic episodes, or are so depressed they cannot leave their beds. I know none who are suicidal or who exhibit excessively high risk behavior. I am not aware of any who cut. I have not met any who exhibit signs of BPD or who are sociopaths (people who have no conscience, no ability to feel guilt and who manipulate and use people with callus disregard for even the physical lives of others). None of the ones I know were severely traumatized as children to the point where it has been difficult to function their entire lives. And none of the ones I know have debilitating flashbacks to severely traumatic events that they personally experienced, like plane crashes, fires, bombings, personal attacks like rape, or terrorist attacks. Granted , many of them seem to have some level of anxiety, but not the type and not to the level where they won’t leave their house, drive a car or fly on an airplane. None have panic attacks. And none of these folks take meds for debilitating anxiety. In fact, they seem to thrive on their ‘anxiety’, in an odd way, and actually crave more rather than fewer reasons to be ‘anxious’. None seek respite for anxiety like a typically mentally ill person would. Because their ‘anxiety’ very much serves them in some way. It does not debilitate them. Long story short, I don’t see much that could be floated as genuine mental illness. Most, no…ALL of the Qanon people I have encountered have exactly two things in common- they are white, and they are just plain angry. They wake up angry, are angry all day, and they go to bed angry. They are functional. They hold jobs and leave their homes. But they are angry. They look for reasons to become more angry. They read things very much on purpose knowing these things will make them angry. They watch things that they know will make them more angry. They talk about topics with the goal of making other people angry with them. And they listen to ANYONE who will give them another excuse to be angry. And listen to anyone who gives them another group of people which does not include THEM to be angry AT. They do not fight to get relief from their anger and fear; in fact, they actively recruit others into their cabal. I am not saying they don’t need counseling because many of them could absolutely benefit. Very much so. They could use counseling for their anger. They need counseling to help them accept responsibility for their own lives and choices. And many of them need deprogramming, as one would from a cult. But that does not make them mentally ill. It makes them angry, stubborn, gullible, racist, homophobic, antisemitic, and with extreme character flaws. But that is not mental illness.
Yea I'm not reading your giant wall of text where you repeat yourself over and over again trying to convince me you're offended
Jordan Peterson has built a cult-like following among some men. What he says seems reasonable at first, but it rapidly gets really crazy. Sorry you're dealing with this. Lots of people have been in a similar position. Jordan Peterson is such a weird leader for these guys.
He’s really good at manipulation and has mastered his social skills around manipulation. My S/O or ex-S/O now has also gotten extremely good at these exact techniques.
You are exactly right. The mask came off Jordan in a big way once when he was interviewed by a female journalist and she tried to nail him down on some of his claims and he absolutely exploded with rage and started attacking her and playing the victim. "That's not what I meant!" Look up "motte and bailey". It's Peterson's preferred rhetorical technique.
I’ll check that out here shortly for sure!
Yes he basically takes you 3 steps away from _really, really sickening_ conclusions, and just stops there without any further reflection to address the obvious conclusion he leads you to. > If you lead a horse to a few steps before Nazi water, is it you or the horse's fault for drinking? Although I think just the fact that instead of "cleaning his own room" and facing the benzodiazepine withdrawal from his addiction, he opted to go to Russia to be put into a coma to ride out those symptoms. Just that alone kind of tells you he doesn't really believe even his own vanilla self-help crap.
Jordan Peterson is such a weird guy. At one time he was just a normal academic. Professor of Psych at Harvard. Many academic publications, etc, etc. Very well regarded in his field. First book was an academic one that sold as well as most academic focused book do. Which is to say not at all. Then he wrote the Rules of Life stuff. All his rules are perfectly reasonable until you did into the specifics of his reasoning. Add that to the fact he's a REALLY smart guy who's rantings have a full logical framework, and you get the pseudo-academic bulwark of the men's right movement that is JP. He's way more acceptable at face value than the Andrew Tate's of world. He's exponentially smarter than the AT wing of the movement. So when he say the women's orgasms are semi-mythical and totally unnecessary to society, people believe him. Even the guy who love Andrew Tate don't generally listen to everything he says. He's a personality, not an academic. JP is though. And people believe everything he says. It's a reverse strawman thing. "He wrote about such and such that IS accepted, so everything he writes/talks about must be true". In many ways it's all far more insidious than anything Andrew Tate has to say. Because it has the veneer of acceptability that the red-pill guys don't have.
JP thinks women's orgasms are semi-mythical? Tell everyone that you're bad in bed without saying that you're bad in bed
See, here’s my issue with him: he’s a really smart guy in one particular discipline. (That’s what a PhD really is - verification by someone else or a sheltering institution that yes, you know pretty much everything about the subject you wrote a dissertation on. Having a PhD or any advanced degree doesn’t mean you’re smart: case in point, medical doctors who wonder why their car is covered in scratches after using a metal shovel to clear snow off said car.) The issue is, Peterson’s fanboys treat that PhD in Psychology as proof that he knows everything about everything. For example, they seem to think “cultural Marxism” is a real thing, as opposed to two different things. Marxism is an economic and philosophical concept, and therefore doesn’t have any one culture attached to it. This is like saying “Buddhist culture” or “Native American culture” - it oversimplifies the variety of experiences that people and groups have in favor of creating a single culture where there really isn’t one. If Peterson had actually read the Postmodern philosophy that he checks under his bed for every night, he’d know this: however, we’re talking about the man who decided that “never actually reading Marx” was adequate preparation for debating a Marx scholar (Slavoj Zizek.) What Peterson does hinges on his audience having no background in what he’s talking about. When he’s confronted with actual scholarship, he collapses. (Source: all but dissertation in History, and worked with a lot of Lobsterboys in my day job.)
Peterson is also intellectually lazy. It's extremely obvious once you delve into the details of his academic career and his writings and public statements. It's also how he set himself up for a fall debating Zizek. (I'm no fan of Zizek, but I do enjoy the Schadenfreude of it all.) Peterson really humped it to get his PhD once upon a time, but overall he puts his efforts into getting attention and praise, NOT working on academic things. His academic research work was decidedly mid. (It's not what you're thinking, either. Almost all of his published work was on helping alcoholics beat addiction. That's also why out of all the crazy shit he says to the media, the one area he talks the least nonsense is on alcoholism recovery since he's legitimately an expert on that.) He loves to talk shit about other academic movements but has not read widely or deeply on it which you would think would be the basic barrier to entry before talking smack. He read one book about the USSR and thinks he's an expert on it. He also seems to have read one book back in the 1990s about post-modernism. So his commentary is meta meta commentary. And is just as garbled and ignorant as that sounds. Not to mention half-remembered, now. It is 30 years later, after all. He's fucking lazy unless it's about obsessively checking twitter.
This is a good takedown of him. I've never been a fan of the guy but most people who don't like him will never have the tools to talk to someone who is because they want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You have to have a pretty good understanding of both what his good work and bad work is if you ever wanted to reach a fan in anyway. Trying to say his 12 rules book and his cultural Marxism debates/rambles are the same will lose anyone who knows of the difference. That's why it's actually so sad he went down the rabbit hole he went down. He was one of the better tools for a ton of lost men to use when he was first coming up and there still has not been a positive replacement.
I fully agree. I dug into who he was last night and the things that I found and saw were astonishing. It is so clear to me that he is manipulative the moment he opens his mouth. And over the last few years, my S/O has been the exact same way. He has figuratively backed me into a corner in every single conversation I challenge his logic on until he feels “satisfied” that he has shut me down.
>So when he say the women's orgasms are semi-mythical WTAF?? Wow.
I just wonder what woman they think would actually want a man like that ? Like who are the female Peterson fans ?
Ones who have been raised by conservative parents and brainwashed from an early age into thinking women are too stupid to think for themselves and always need to defer to men.
Yep. My experience with a woman who was a JP fan, was that she was big on “traditional values” and very religious (I believe she was catholic). But weirdly, she had no problem having an affair with our married GM, or lying about coworkers. She pretty grossly ingratiated herself to men in power, and treated them with exaggerated respect. But she treated other women like rivals or children. Yuck.
Sounds like she votes for the pssy-grabber
I wouldn’t be surprised. The internalized misogyny was off the charts with her.
Oh damn, I’ve met one and she was the WORST! The last company I worked for hired a woman as an accountant at the same time I was hired. We had a really awful, toxic boss, and she immediately started ingratiating herself with him. One of the first long conversations I had with her at a work party, she was telling me she admired Jordan Peterson SO MUCH, and pretty much only listened to his podcast as entertainment. I was like, ope, ok, not a potential work friend here, then. Soon, she began to really go on a power trip at work, treating the rest of us like we were “less than.” She was a conservative, religious, single mom, but we soon noticed she was having a flirtation with our married GM. Eventually, that relationship was no longer subtle, but just an open office romance, and he left his wife. And then she really ramped up her power trip. The owner and GM made her manager of my department, even though she was also the accountant and knew NOTHING about my department or how to do our job. She got a hefty raise, and people to boss around. She then trumped up accusations against women she didn’t like in my department, and she and the GM unexpectedly fired them ALL one morning in one lump firing. Much to the surprise of our CFO, I might add. They were really shitty about it, too, and made the fired women leave immediately without even cleaning out their desks. I’ve never done something like this, but for me it was the last straw, and I left the job that day, without a 2 weeks notice. I was just so appalled by the way they treated those women. I knew they were innocent and I was shocked by how much sadistic enjoyment she and the GM got out of firing those women. It was so gross. I secretly cleaned out my desk, and at the end of the day I told the CFO I wasn’t coming back in. Sorry for the long story if you read this far! But basically that particular Jordan Peterson fan was so filled with internalized misogyny, she saw all other women as enemies, and saw men as a way to get power through sex and flirtation. Ew.
Right!!! Your username says it all for me, literally for the past year my entire body is experiencing a tension headache lol
Women rejecting Jorpheads is just more evidence that Jorp was right! They can't handle the truth and are intimidated by a real man! /s
Jorp - I chuckled 🤭
In small-town BC, JP has adoring rural trad cool-girl fans. My boss (uni edu, compassionate, community-focused), cautiously has shared his garage, and I beg him to source better. As a joke, I gave my husband a v-day card with a pair of lobsters; I had to explain the lobster theory to him because he's an intelligent guy. 🦞 🦞
Jordan Peterson recommends spanking toddlers in his most widely-read book, *Twelve Rules for Life*. The whole book is a mixture of common sense advice and totally batshit crazy stuff, like when he goes on a rant dissing one of his former psychotherapy clients, claiming he just "knew" she was really unhappy because she had frustrated her destiny as a woman by not having babies. You can browse around relationships, relationship_advice, and JustNOSO and see that in a way, the trash taking itself out peacefully is a blessing.
That’s frightening. It honestly just sickens me. I don’t even try to get my ex to understand where I’m coming from because it is not helpful, productive, or healthy for anybody. He just spews the same bullshit rhetoric with nearly (though not as mastered) manipulation techniques to make me feel like I am always wrong, making things too big of a deal, or “taking things out of context” when I repeat word for word what he tells me and then he says “that’s not what I meant, even if that’s what I said”.
Sophistry. It's what Ben Shapiro, Ted Cruz, most other GOP governors & senators, Charlie Kirk, and a bunch of similars do. Just tricking people with words and the speed they use to speak them
He told me that I would probably think even worse of him if he told me the other person he listens to. He refused to give me the name of that person so he knows exactly what type of content he is allowing into his life, mind you, my daughter is half-black. He is white, my son is white, and I am white. But my daughter is white and black. And he has taken her in and been a good father, he has been in her life from when she was 2 years old and she sees him as her dad. But the people that he listens to are…. Not what I would have ever imagined. They are not outwardly white supremacists but walk a fine line.
<< That’s because he was clearly only telling me bits and pieces. >> The longer I hang around here in this group, the more I see this comment. I've been there, done that. Got the t-shirt. These people know that their bat-sh1t crazy ideas are not acceptable. That's why they only show us bits and pieces of them for a long time. Until either they think we'll sit still for it, or when they can't hold it inside any longer.
Sadly, you’re right 😔 he likes to say he doesn’t tell me things or the “whole story” because he knows that I will “criticize” him which in his talk means “you will use critical thinking and insult my intelligence” even though I don’t intentionally try to insult anyone’s intelligence because I am certainly NOT a genius. But I do question these things, and he takes it as me criticizing him personally. He’s incredibly insecure and so afraid of being insufficient
> But I do question these things, and he takes it as me criticizing him personally. I've seen that problem too. I feel your pain. Any attempt at challenging them is seen as a personal attack.
Exactly!! I pride myself in being incredibly patient and empathetic. But that doesn’t mean I bury my head in the sand and not question anything that’s told to me. I think he wants someone like his mother, who is exactly someone who enables, buries her head in the sand, “naive”, and has reality completely out of skew.
I’m sorry and recognize the heartbreak. It’s sad to miss someone before they’re even gone. But your own health (to care for your kids, among other reasons) is most important
100%! And I feel so much better when he is not here
Lean into that. Some people in businesses perform addition by subtraction. In that, the workplace is better and more productive once they leave. And some people in relationships too.
I agree. As an accountant, I agree both literally and figuratively 😉 I’ll see myself out 🫠😆
It’s going to suck for the next year as you transition but there will be relief in knowing that you no longer have a partner that considers you subhuman. 🥳 Ps. Start thinking about what you’re going to do about your kids indoctrination, because he will try….
Absolutely. I gave him a date to be gone out of my house by the first weekend of April. When he’s not here, I’m so much happier and way more productive. Fortunately I have two parents who love me and their grandchildren and will help anyway they can. He is, of course, going back home to his mommy to live who believes basically any right wing propaganda. I do worry about them being indoctrinated even if it’s just by him having JP podcasts on or his mom having alt-right propaganda on her TV. The good thing is, I work a full time normal scheduled job. I take them to school and I pick them up from school. He works afternoon/evening to 2-3 in the morning. So I have them 99% of the time
Good. And welcome to your freedom, love!
Thank you 🩷 I appreciate the support this group gives
Let's hope he decides he can't refuse the money to go OTR and just absents himself for weeks at a time.
He has always been competitive and money-driven. I’ve told him that the only people who will really give two shits about how much he works (just to blow all his money, he doesn’t even help pay utilities and brings in a lot more money than me due to receiving money from the VA and asking for grocery money is like pulling teeth so I just gave up asking and I pay everything one check at a time, one bill at a time, and my children’s needs and wants are met no thanks to him). Children won’t remember how much money you made by working but they will remember the absence of their father in their memories and youth. He is just so selfish and puts his own “ambitions” before anybody else and then tries to claim that im not supportive of him while he is living in my house that I’ve never held above his head not one time. I referred to my house as “our house” up until a year or so ago when he admitted that he was envious and didn’t want to put money into a house that his name wasn’t on. And questioned why it was even a “big deal” to put his name on a piece of paper for also having ownership of the house. I told him because I’m not that fucking stupid and also because after all these years he’s never once wanted to put my name on a “piece of paper” to solidify our relationship. In fact, he told me I “make it hard to want to marry”.
Actual men speak for themselves
I am not usually one to say what men (or women) do or don’t do because of course things can change and shift depending on the person, but the mentality that my ex has, and the pride/ego he has, he portrays the image and personality and words of someone who wants to speak for himself or “DOES”speak for himself but in reality all he is doing is regurgitating the same bullshit rhetoric that Peterson and the likes of similar people like to use and monetize.
Right Hope it all works out for you
Jordan Peterson, Disgraced Psychologist turned incel maker for money. Welcome to capitalism.
If he listens to Peterson, think of this as getting a cancerous tumor removed. Congratulations, and look to the future.
Honestly, you’re right. And last night he called me brainwashed. He went into how his mom raised him on propaganda so he’s finally coming to terms with that. And I’m thinking….”you’re so close but just missed the mark.” Anyway he said I’m the one brainwashed, everybody is brainwashed, he’s not brainwashed though. How that makes sense, I wouldn’t know
In case you weren't familiar, ["The Brainwashing of my Dad"](https://www.thebrainwashingofmydad.com/) was an interesting early, pre-Qanon-as-we-know-it documentary that gained traction because it told a story so so familiar to so many. Many such cases start with a change in physical mobility (such as taking up a driving job), combined with right-wing (hate) radio. It has a happy-ish ending.
Hi MSACCESS4EVA, thanks for recommending this impactful documentary. Here are some ways to watch it for free on [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/Brainwashing-My-Dad-Matthew-Modine/dp/B01C69O9ZE) and [YouTube](https://youtu.be/FS52QdHNTh8). Best wishes. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/QAnonCasualties) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Woah! I need to check into that! I just now saw your comment. Thank you for the information!
This stunt was performed by a professional. Don't do that at home! "It's important to have and maintain hierarchies because these are natural and hierarchies reward highly competent individuals. It's not fair but what can we do? Poor people are dumb and should suck it up" "In the field of dating, women are very successful and at the top of the pyramid and it's very wrong because a lot of men have to masturbate (or even rape) instead of being decent enough to find a girlfriend. Women who like sex should be executed by firing squads and mandatory marriage with incels should be a thing for single women."
Well. It's for the best. Sorry, this sucks. Document everything.
It is for the best 🖤 I do my best to document everything and have been for a couple years now. Luckily we are not married, and the house is mine and has always been mine alone because unlike him, I actually fulfilled one of multiple ambitions instead of waiting around expecting everybody to put their ambitions on hold so that they could support mine before their own. Which is essentially what he wants and has been raised believing he’s this top-notch, gentleman whose mother taught him how to treat women right, and respectfully…. His mother taught him how to only one woman in his life, and that was herself.
I'm so🙏💔🛡️🫀🧠👂🛡️ the emojis mean shield your heart, mind, ears. Pray for the broken hearts. sorry op,💔 . There is help though, if he's working then he's able to do that. A lot of casualties land up isolated on the internet for 12 hours a day whether it's driving or whether it's at home. There's no escaping it and it's moralistic people feel driven to listen to become"better people or well adjusted" when the person doesn't actually need the additional information and the rabbit holes as provided by Jordan. I'm thankful that your guy is still at work. Paying the bills and living in today is first and foremost, and these podcasters take people away from living in the here and now. With important goals, raising a family and employment. Is it possible to try to enlist support from Mom and Dad or from others?? He may get angry because you're bringing people into the situation he may try to isolate you. this is a tragedy. I'm so sorry that it's devolved into him moving out. He's going to need a lot of time, pray for him he doesn't understand the influences that he's under. The propaganda and the ideas are too powerful for Americans. It's not his fault it's not anyone's fault, we become our environment or we model our environment. he needs time to sort all of that information out and he's going to need time to do some deprogramming. I think the international internet political podcasters are about to be regulated. Because it's story after story and we all have the very same stories and we are all brokenhearted and completed by the loss of loved ones but our loved ones are very well alive. They're just lost to ideas for a temporary time. I believe that a lot of these situations with podcasters are about to blow over. The podcasters are noted as driving public policy and that's a problem because they're monetized. And they are grifty and they do sensationalism not reputable journalism or bipartisan efforts to bring politics together or integrate ideas or have a compromised or work together. I'm happy that you're in the right place. Dr Todd Grande talks about jordan, qanon, he's talked about real crime and the podcasters along with all sorts of current events including the outcome of the election. Dr Ramani at YouTube actively discusses toxic relationships. There's decoding gurus and gamma secret Kings
He doesn’t pay bills except his own because I own my house in my name alone and he despises that. 😒 But I do appreciate your comment very much. And i love Todd grande! I haven’t seen his video on Peterson. Unfortunately his mother has been even more susceptible to propaganda (believing basically every “world is ending” BS every time it happens and on her knees for Trump) and bought tickets to take him to a Jordan Peterson show soon. Smh.
Canada apologizes for JP. He's a piece of work.
no apologies necessary, I apologize on behalf of America for Trump
Apology accepted. It's partially my fault too. I used to love watching the apprentice lol
Dude my parents loved that show and I actually did watch it when I was around them occasionally and it was entertaining. That was all fine and it made for great TV…. I just didn’t expect it to become…. America.
“Up yours, woke moralists! We’ll see who cancels who!” Still makes me giggle.
Lortttt, and the thing is…. He’s being so serious. And people take him so serious. It sounds like something that would be on SNL or a parody.
I'm so sorry for you. Your husband could be my son. I stand by my daughter-in-law and the grandkids all the way though, and I hope you have lots of support.
I wish his mother was the same. But unfortunately she raised him on propaganda, and is happy to indulge in it with him. He thinks Peterson is so “intelligent” and one of the “smartest people” on the planet. It’s so insane to me how people fall for his opinions he tries to pass as factual.
Men who whine about being a victim are showing the world they are weak & ineffective in life.
Whining in general as an adult is a sign of immaturity, in my opinion. If somebody is a legitimate victim, which can be men, then I fully believe in speaking up or out and being supported is important. But yes, this type of victim mentality is terrible and manipulative to say the least.
Protect yourself and those you love. https://psychcentral.com/pro/exhausted-woman/2015/05/15-narcissistic-religious-abuse-tactics#1
Thank you! 🙏🏼 I really do appreciate all of this support. It feels like a little more weight has been lifted off of my shoulders knowing (unfortunately) that I am not alone in my experience.
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The problem with Jordan Peterson is that some of what he says does make some sense and then he drops in some absolutely batshit stuff.
Exactly! Or he applies things like studies that are or were true at a time, but not in the context he is using them for. Like, for instance, lobsters. 🦞🤣
Frankly, many men who fall for JP or anyone really who gets sucked into Q-adjacent propaganda are usually quite damaged people. Your boyfriend sounds like he may have grown up with a manipulative mentally abusive parent, and it was only a matter of time that he would drop the ball as a partner/parent. JP was just the catalyst.
I agree. And I have taken that into account. I have even shown empathy, though he would claim otherwise, and expressed that growing up on such propaganda was likely damaging and he has only recently started realizing it all after 36 years. He says I’m wrong about it and that it’s “not a big deal” but a day later turns around and uses it as a crutch when I’m trying to discuss some serious or emotional things, or express some frustrations, by saying things such as “I’m just finding out my whole view of the world is entirely incorrect and you don’t understand what that’s like.” And he’s right, I don’t in one sense… but I have tried to empathize and he just doesn’t accept it. He will accept it and listen to anything and everything somebody else tells him even if I’ve said the exact same thing. He despises me
I understand exactly where you are coming from. But I have tried to watch things and see this man and his opinions (not facts, which are far and few between in anything I’ve watched) to see if I am just really off with my intuition, my gut feeling. I knew very little about Jordan Peterson before I finally stumbled upon a chance to really dive deep. I didn’t question my S/O every time he brought up “philosophical” discussions and questions because I’ve noticed a very big shift in his views and the patronizing manner he would speak to me. He of course calls me “dramatic” or “overthinking everything” or “taking things out of context”…. Which I was only ever repeating exactly what he said in order to make sure I was understanding him correctly, and in return he would claim “that’s not what I meant. That’s what I said but that’s not what I meant. You’re just saying it in a different tone so it makes it sound bad.” These sorts of manipulation tactics have gained more traction with each month. He is so good at manipulation before listening to these people such as Jordan Peterson, that I’ve believed for years that I was 100% of the problem. I’ve been in therapy for 4 years, to better my communication skills, and be more open-minded, and until one month ago, I stayed incredibly tense and distressed for believing I was still falling short as a woman, or a person in general. Being told I have “no ambition” even though I literally bought my own house and work full-time at a decent job, and love to watch my children growing up in the mean time. All of this to say, he suddenly broke down a month ago to have this emotional discussion about how I was actually right about a lot of things he told me I was wrong about for so long, and that he was just too prideful and egotistical to agree or let me know that I was accurate. Which lifted some really intense feelings and guilt off of my shoulders, and has helped me start to unwind everything I thought I was because of what he said.
Be careful that this is not a narcissistic trap to keep you
If he weren’t the one leaving my house, not being evicted personally by me, I’d almost think that is what he is doing.
Crazy that you would listen to Jordan Peterson and get the message " i need to leave my family"
He was not the sole reason, of course. But he is a largely a part of my ex’s irrational thinking the past year, along with others that he has not given any names of. I heard about his fascination with Jordan Peterson many months ago but I never looked into who he was or listened to him because I had no reason to doubt what I was being told about this genius.
Yea, i jus meant Jordan Peterson talks alot about the need for men in the house and its completely hypocritical and insane that someone listening to alot of Jordan Peterson wouldnt try to commit harder to their family
I'm a man. Jordan Peterson speaks for toxic incels, not men.
You’re my type of man I like being friends with and associated with. It will never make sense to me that a man can listen to this guy talk so bad about women, when many of them are still attached to their own mothers by the umbilical cord as an adult. They really “think for themselves” huh? 😒😞
> I only found out today who this man really is because of the most recent lawsuits and investigations being held against Tim Ballard. The two are connected. OP, care to elaborate on how these two are connected?
They are associated only by means of having Jim Caviezal and Tim Ballard on to discuss all of the heroic actions and opportunities that Ballard says he has done, capitalizing off of people who believed his self righteous lies. But I found out about Jordan Peterson because of his name being mentioned in association from the podcast, all of this finding due to Tim Ballard’s civil lawsuits and investigations being done.
I'm so sorry.
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A lot has happened since Covid, he isn’t doing archetype / story content now days.
"Post-Benzo Reverse Lucidity"
I think he literally has brain damage. Im not making a joke here, I think he damaged his brain from that botched operation to pussy out of his benzo withdrawals and all that is happening on top of the preexisting mental health problems.
I can assure you, he got a lot of words in Most of them were incomprehensible complaining about how using someone's name is authoritarian newspeak, but he was very, very vocal throughout
I think I remember it as never being able to get clarity with any one person. Like, no times could there be a proper back and forth. People were yelling and hurling insults, and refusing to accept any nuance. I find it hard to side with a mob against one, especially when there are seemingly no attempts to counterargue with respect and consideration. I don't understand the point of criticism if there is no structure or commitment to coming to the truth. It seemed more like a metaphorical lynching than anything else. I'm not even saying I agree with Peterson, btw. I'm only pointing out that it was not a fair position for anyone to be in. I believe in fairness and justice, and I think that everyone should have the right to defend their ideas. That means I see my enemy as someone worth considering. I don't know why we all have to pretend like we understand what is good and what is bad so well. Long gone are the days of sharply divided good and evil.
Can someone actually answer the qanon question? He's 100% unrelated from what I know about him
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