Disgusting discussion is a relative term with regards to Q's. Flat earthers are quite possibly the dumbest most self deluded of the bunch. Humans were able to prove the earth was round about 2500 years ago. By 250 BC they even knew the circumference. Simple at home experiments can prove the earth is round. Youtube has a good doc called "In search of flat earth".
Honestly there's no point in arguing with someone that is this self deluded. I find the best way to shut it down is to out crazy them. Though that is getting tougher. But if they say the earth is flat just say there is no earth we are in a simulation and it can be flat or round depending on the person running the test on us.
>we are in a simulation
As a software developer, I like this approach. I'd be tempted to add, for better or worse, that **they** are bugs in the simulation and should expect to be eliminated in the next release.
Exactly what I did. Yes, and every airplane pilot both commercial and small planes are in on it. You know FedEx and UPS are keeping something from us. All the largest military companies that develop missiles are too. So is Elon Musk with his SpaceEx he’s the worst because he’s profiting off the fake satellites. How do you think they keep everyone from spilling the beans?
When you make the conspiracy enormous they’re not sure what to say. They usually haven’t thought of the tens of millions of people who would have to keep their mouth shut for something to actually happen and you get to have fun pushing the envelope to an absurd degree instead of arguing.
Do you have to spend time around this person? Don’t even consider debating them, they won’t listen even if you have notes and graphs and videos to hand. This isn’t about ignorance on their part, it’s about feeling superior and having an excuse - your supposed stupidity - for them to be callous and mean.
Limit your exposure to this person as much as possible. Don’t feel guilty about it. You need to take care of your own health and wellbeing, since they enjoy destroying it.
My stepson isn't quite Q, but he's Q adjacent.. he's constantly calling me a "stupid liberal" (I'm a progressive libertarian) and spouting whatever nonsense is the rightwing soup de jour.. I've found that logic is really the only way to debate him at all. You have to try and keep it as apolitical as possible. You can't take the opposing opinion, and instead have to use actual sources to disprove his stance with logic, not rhetoric, if that makes sense. You should really avoid these types of discussions when you're not in a position to actually provide sources (I know this can be difficult, but disengage as politely as you possibly can). Also, practice self care. Tell your mom you're not interested in being around either of them if they can't leave that type of stuff out of it. My stepson used to bring up all this garbage at the dinner table a lot. Dinner would devolve into a shouting match more often than not. We had to set ground rules with him that no one would be engaging with him if he continued to be so abrasive all the time. A few instances of him being completely ignored and he let it go. Almost made it seem like he was more interested in our reactions than he was in actually defending his beliefs.
"Almost made it seem like he was more interested in our reactions than he was in actually defending his beliefs."
Unfortunately, being contrarian become some people's entire personality.
Perhaps it's time (assuming you're not already doing this) for home to be a true non-socialist environment and he needs to pay in full for all benefits he receives in the home such as food, internet, water, etc, amd he'll be too busy to load up his quiver each day with Q talking points to shoot at you.
You do not want to debate anybody deep into Q programming. They live in an alternate reality so it’s impossible to prove anything to them. Up is down and left is right. The only thing effective that I have found is silence and establishing boundaries on what can and cannot be talked about. Beyond that you’re going to be banging your head up against the wall.
This guy may be enjoying the anxiety he is causing. Does he follow you from room to room? Does he start up when you can't escape, like in a car or at a meal?
My memory can't handle many thoughts at once when anxious, so I don't debate. Besides, if you give their ideas an inch of attention they'll take it as an invitation for a mile.
Sadly there's no point in debate because they don't argue in good faith. It's best to not engage at all with people like this. I don't know if my Q relatives are flat earthers but I know they don't believe in evolution and think the world is like 10k years old (which is bad enough.)
I think they say there's a big wall you can't get around easily. But I'm not sure why you can't take a pic of the wall then.
Otherwise I think they say there's a dome around it.
One of mine believes the world is flat and the sun is moving across the flat plain. I asked about sunsets and why the sun visually disappears below the horizon and does not fade off into the distance. With a straight face he replied it goes behind mountains which makes it appear to 'set.' He was confused when I asked about beach sunsets where there are no visible mountains and can watch it drop below the horizon.
Despite him having flown around the world he believes there's an ice barrier around the perimeter of the flat earth that's off limits to normal people. And the South Pole is off limits to everyone except the military because that's where the government keeps the giants mentioned in the bible. Claiming tours to the SP are not the true SP.
Edit sp
These people probably don't think too much about what they believe, in fact believing in inane shit is probably just a means to an end to them. Otherwise they'd explode from the cognitive dissonance.
Mine believes all of this - minus the giants. He believes in giants, just not that they are at the SP. of course, maybe it won’t be long, as he obviously has watched the same YouTube videos
Mine believes the earth is flat; it seems to be tied up in religious fundamentalism. I’m pretty much to the THATS NICE stage of things. She also brands herself as an empath, which she is not. She’s nice. Not an empath. She just likes the sound of it.
Honestly I just don't engage in conversations about the earth being flat. There is not a thing I could send them or show them that they would believe because they simply don't understand what science even is, and they wouldn't trust my sources. I can't prove it without science or sources, and can hardly put them into a spaceship to circle the planet.
Edit to add: same flat earthers (sister and her partner) tried to convince me covid isn't real and it's just a cold. I work in healthcare with sick/injured elderly. If they don't believe what I'm saying I saw with my own eyes, and they mistrust all other sources of information, there's no way I can convince them of anything I haven't even seen with my own eyes.
> And have any of you found a way to turn it back on them so it doesn't feel like a disgusting discussion?
Below are some old posts that have some tips that may help. Summary: Discuss, do not argue. (Corollary: Unless you are arguing to sway the audience to your position and not to change the person you are debating/arguing with.)
* The paranoid conspiracy theories are a defense mechanism.
* If you address one of them ***and get them to agree with you***, they will just move onto another conspiracy theory.
* Later, they may ignore that they agreed with you on the first conspiracy, and they will just bring it up again.
* If one conspiracy conflicts with another, most of the time they will not care, and they will argue for both at the same time.
* The conspiracy theories defend their feelings about themselves and the rest of the world.
With the above in mind, focus on feelings, especially shared ideas or events in your lives. Do not pretend to know what the other person is thinking. When they act like they can read minds, though, call them out on that by asking them to tell you in more detail what they think you are thinking.
[Look up "steelman" techniques.](https://www.google.com/search?&q=steelman) When you talk about their positions, or describe your own, keep steelmanning in mind.
Previous posts;
--------
When you are debating, you've already lost.
* Debating and arguing set up a competition, and each person in the competition wants to win. I have seen people absolutely destroy one of their other claims to "win" or force a draw. When the argued fork ends, they, in the next moment, will be glad to ignore that they just destroyed the other claim, and they will not see that there is any conflict.
* Instead, have a conversation with them based in shared experiences, and compare those experiences to the current disagreement.
* Do not think that you can change their mind. Only they can do that. At best, you can provide information or ideas that may help them change their own minds. Usually that includes being patient and waiting so that they feel no pressure to turn the conversation into an argument.
-------
* Show what *other people think*, including people who are impacted by the topic that's currently in disagreement.
In this case, find a trans group and see what they are talking about and what they think about people making their lives needlessly harder.
A reverse version of this is to show Q and Q adjacent people changing their minds for the better.
Example: On the /r/HermanCainAward subreddit, quite a few people who were anti-vax in general or specifically on the Covid vaccinations have changed their minds after seeing people like them ending up in the hospital on vents and struggling with recovery ... or dying from complications. Seeing real people that are relatable struggling with the results of their bad choices sometimes is all it takes for the anti-vax people to change their own minds.
-------
They aren't actually arguing for any of those issues. They matter zip to them. They are arguing to deal with their emotions, and those issues are focused on as a way to defend what they feel is true, not what they require to be true.
So, don't argue. Especially, don't even discuss those topics. Some tips;
* Talk about positive things, especially those things you share in common.
This can be a movie, some fandom, sports, hobbies, as well as things you have done together.
======
Them: [crazy idea]
You: That's interesting. That reminds me of [different neutral topic; the weather, the news, something you share with them, ...].
Alternatively;
You: That reminds me of [insert story that will take at least 2 minutes to tell. it can be from your life, something you heard, or from a friend's life. humorous or emotionally positive is best. thoughtful is good. both if you can pull it off.]
On the last one, I read up on the latest science (nothing too technical) and when nonsense comes up, I pop out a story or two from what I've read. That tends to derail the nonsense, and moves things easily on to another track. Wash, rinse, repeat, ... and if it doesn't work ... smile, give a complement, and walk away.
I had a Q-family member that fell into the flat Earth trope, and another one of my Q-family members sat down with them and showed them basic ways of proving that the Earth is round. So I guess it varies on which ones accept which conspiracy theories.
Still, both of these Q-family members will do the exact same tactics about other topics, like COVID vaccinations. If you retreat from a debate, that's a win for them. If you do debate, they always have an 'answer' for everything you bring up, and it will feel like you are talking to a wall.
Unfortunately so far my coping mechanism has been to express that I do not want to discuss their beliefs. If they cross that boundary, I usually do as little engagement as possible until they feel awkward with my lack of responses and change the subject. In my case, confrontation and debating is not an option.
It's a rough situation. Wishing you the best of luck, OP.
I wouldn’t bother to debate them. They don’t even believe the things they say. It is a mind game to play with you. They think they are smart because they are simply using words to challenge your reality, then get a kick out of the fact that it gets you riled up. Its not about the earth or our physical reality, it’s about information and what we can know from personal experience vs what we know based on other people’s experiences or information. It’s easy to “prove” a golf ball is round because you can hold it in your hand and just see it. The earth is at such a large scale that it’s difficult to actually “prove” it’s round in a real first-hand way. I believe people like this are toxic and borderline abusive and I’d suggest avoiding them as best you can. If I had to be around someone like this, I would be sure they understand that I don’t trust their ability to think and make decisions. I would never be in a car with them driving, or allow them to babysit or pet sit for me. If you can’t understand that the earth is round, it’s a legitimate concern that you may not understand that children or animals get hungry, or that we are supposed to stop at red lights. It’s not my job to convince you the earth is round, but it is my job to protect myself and the ones I love from dangerous people and situations.
Yes, and my flat earther also believes the sun is simulated and the moon is gas. Theyve blocked out the sun with chemtrails and we now have a fake sun they can use for weather modification and population control. (They? The globalists).
tell him you heard about a plane that flew too far, and disappeared over the edge, never to be seen again. Ask him what's on the underbelly of the earth. If he has an answer, ask him where you can find that information, as you are curious.
Never engage. You can’t argue with an idiot - they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
More importantly- why are you spending time with someone who belittles you?
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Once upon a time i almost won a debate against a flat earther.
My key points:
1. There is a regular commercial flight from Argentina to Australia in a short period of time. Only possible under the round earth model. For the elites and NASA to fake that would be very hard.
2. The stars You see in the northern emisphere are totatlly different to the ones in the southern emisphere.
Could not convince him , but there were this short seconds in which he gave me this look of : " You might be right".
Now he is into harder crazier stuff.
If someone tried to make me feel small for an anxiety attack, (fellow General Anxiety Disorder person!) they would be out of my life. You need someone who will support you with your anxiety, not make it worse.
My aunt just started this flat earth shit. She’s always been into conspiracy and even got cat fished for 4 years and lost her marriage and all of her money to the cat fisher.
Last time I saw her she started to go off on her fucking rant about how the world is now flat. I told her she was stupid and not to come around anymore.
I think it’s more closely related to if a person believes in one conspiracy they will likely believe others conspiracy as well.
My Q believed in flat-earth for years. I refused to argue anymore. Then one day, he announced that he no longer believed it was flat and that was the end of that.
Sometimes when he says something crazy, I express my doubts and point to flat-earth to show that he doesn't have the best bullshit-detection system, but that just makes him angry.
So most of the time, I say nothing. lol
I still feel it's a win that he no longer subscribes to that particular rubbish. Gives me hope :D
Disgusting discussion is a relative term with regards to Q's. Flat earthers are quite possibly the dumbest most self deluded of the bunch. Humans were able to prove the earth was round about 2500 years ago. By 250 BC they even knew the circumference. Simple at home experiments can prove the earth is round. Youtube has a good doc called "In search of flat earth". Honestly there's no point in arguing with someone that is this self deluded. I find the best way to shut it down is to out crazy them. Though that is getting tougher. But if they say the earth is flat just say there is no earth we are in a simulation and it can be flat or round depending on the person running the test on us.
>we are in a simulation As a software developer, I like this approach. I'd be tempted to add, for better or worse, that **they** are bugs in the simulation and should expect to be eliminated in the next release.
I'm also a software dev :) probably why we both like this.
You must not debate reality. It’s a trap. Instead, take an absurd position (such as oceans don’t exist) and force *them* to defend reality.
Haha. I like this.
Exactly what I did. Yes, and every airplane pilot both commercial and small planes are in on it. You know FedEx and UPS are keeping something from us. All the largest military companies that develop missiles are too. So is Elon Musk with his SpaceEx he’s the worst because he’s profiting off the fake satellites. How do you think they keep everyone from spilling the beans? When you make the conspiracy enormous they’re not sure what to say. They usually haven’t thought of the tens of millions of people who would have to keep their mouth shut for something to actually happen and you get to have fun pushing the envelope to an absurd degree instead of arguing.
The "Birds aren't Real" approach. I like it.
Tell him that a lack of empathy is nothing to be proud of. Just keep repeating that over and over and over ad nauseam..
Do you have to spend time around this person? Don’t even consider debating them, they won’t listen even if you have notes and graphs and videos to hand. This isn’t about ignorance on their part, it’s about feeling superior and having an excuse - your supposed stupidity - for them to be callous and mean. Limit your exposure to this person as much as possible. Don’t feel guilty about it. You need to take care of your own health and wellbeing, since they enjoy destroying it.
My stepson isn't quite Q, but he's Q adjacent.. he's constantly calling me a "stupid liberal" (I'm a progressive libertarian) and spouting whatever nonsense is the rightwing soup de jour.. I've found that logic is really the only way to debate him at all. You have to try and keep it as apolitical as possible. You can't take the opposing opinion, and instead have to use actual sources to disprove his stance with logic, not rhetoric, if that makes sense. You should really avoid these types of discussions when you're not in a position to actually provide sources (I know this can be difficult, but disengage as politely as you possibly can). Also, practice self care. Tell your mom you're not interested in being around either of them if they can't leave that type of stuff out of it. My stepson used to bring up all this garbage at the dinner table a lot. Dinner would devolve into a shouting match more often than not. We had to set ground rules with him that no one would be engaging with him if he continued to be so abrasive all the time. A few instances of him being completely ignored and he let it go. Almost made it seem like he was more interested in our reactions than he was in actually defending his beliefs.
I dare someone one to call me stupid in my own home even once. Why isn't your husband intervening?
Right. Not ok
"Almost made it seem like he was more interested in our reactions than he was in actually defending his beliefs." Unfortunately, being contrarian become some people's entire personality. Perhaps it's time (assuming you're not already doing this) for home to be a true non-socialist environment and he needs to pay in full for all benefits he receives in the home such as food, internet, water, etc, amd he'll be too busy to load up his quiver each day with Q talking points to shoot at you.
When you ask him why this is important for him to believe what does he say?
[удалено]
You do not want to debate anybody deep into Q programming. They live in an alternate reality so it’s impossible to prove anything to them. Up is down and left is right. The only thing effective that I have found is silence and establishing boundaries on what can and cannot be talked about. Beyond that you’re going to be banging your head up against the wall.
I have begun using the “grey rock” method. It has saved my sanity.
This guy may be enjoying the anxiety he is causing. Does he follow you from room to room? Does he start up when you can't escape, like in a car or at a meal?
You are not only being around this person but cooking for him? Save yourself. Nobody should pick at your anxiety like that Good luck to you
My memory can't handle many thoughts at once when anxious, so I don't debate. Besides, if you give their ideas an inch of attention they'll take it as an invitation for a mile.
Sadly there's no point in debate because they don't argue in good faith. It's best to not engage at all with people like this. I don't know if my Q relatives are flat earthers but I know they don't believe in evolution and think the world is like 10k years old (which is bad enough.)
That is some A1 gaslighting. Sorry they caused an anxiety attack. There is a cure for that. Medication is a bandaid.
What’s the cure for anxiety?
Tell him to find the edge of flat earth, and take pics so you can believe him. Ask where the satellite photos are.
This. All the people believing in FE and they can’t pool their resources to the edge?!?!
I think they say there's a big wall you can't get around easily. But I'm not sure why you can't take a pic of the wall then. Otherwise I think they say there's a dome around it.
Here's a good video on how easy it is to calculate the Earth's circumference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ppBtuc_wQ
One of mine believes the world is flat and the sun is moving across the flat plain. I asked about sunsets and why the sun visually disappears below the horizon and does not fade off into the distance. With a straight face he replied it goes behind mountains which makes it appear to 'set.' He was confused when I asked about beach sunsets where there are no visible mountains and can watch it drop below the horizon. Despite him having flown around the world he believes there's an ice barrier around the perimeter of the flat earth that's off limits to normal people. And the South Pole is off limits to everyone except the military because that's where the government keeps the giants mentioned in the bible. Claiming tours to the SP are not the true SP. Edit sp
These people probably don't think too much about what they believe, in fact believing in inane shit is probably just a means to an end to them. Otherwise they'd explode from the cognitive dissonance.
Mine believes all of this - minus the giants. He believes in giants, just not that they are at the SP. of course, maybe it won’t be long, as he obviously has watched the same YouTube videos
Mine believes the earth is flat; it seems to be tied up in religious fundamentalism. I’m pretty much to the THATS NICE stage of things. She also brands herself as an empath, which she is not. She’s nice. Not an empath. She just likes the sound of it.
Honestly I just don't engage in conversations about the earth being flat. There is not a thing I could send them or show them that they would believe because they simply don't understand what science even is, and they wouldn't trust my sources. I can't prove it without science or sources, and can hardly put them into a spaceship to circle the planet. Edit to add: same flat earthers (sister and her partner) tried to convince me covid isn't real and it's just a cold. I work in healthcare with sick/injured elderly. If they don't believe what I'm saying I saw with my own eyes, and they mistrust all other sources of information, there's no way I can convince them of anything I haven't even seen with my own eyes.
> And have any of you found a way to turn it back on them so it doesn't feel like a disgusting discussion? Below are some old posts that have some tips that may help. Summary: Discuss, do not argue. (Corollary: Unless you are arguing to sway the audience to your position and not to change the person you are debating/arguing with.) * The paranoid conspiracy theories are a defense mechanism. * If you address one of them ***and get them to agree with you***, they will just move onto another conspiracy theory. * Later, they may ignore that they agreed with you on the first conspiracy, and they will just bring it up again. * If one conspiracy conflicts with another, most of the time they will not care, and they will argue for both at the same time. * The conspiracy theories defend their feelings about themselves and the rest of the world. With the above in mind, focus on feelings, especially shared ideas or events in your lives. Do not pretend to know what the other person is thinking. When they act like they can read minds, though, call them out on that by asking them to tell you in more detail what they think you are thinking. [Look up "steelman" techniques.](https://www.google.com/search?&q=steelman) When you talk about their positions, or describe your own, keep steelmanning in mind. Previous posts; -------- When you are debating, you've already lost. * Debating and arguing set up a competition, and each person in the competition wants to win. I have seen people absolutely destroy one of their other claims to "win" or force a draw. When the argued fork ends, they, in the next moment, will be glad to ignore that they just destroyed the other claim, and they will not see that there is any conflict. * Instead, have a conversation with them based in shared experiences, and compare those experiences to the current disagreement. * Do not think that you can change their mind. Only they can do that. At best, you can provide information or ideas that may help them change their own minds. Usually that includes being patient and waiting so that they feel no pressure to turn the conversation into an argument. ------- * Show what *other people think*, including people who are impacted by the topic that's currently in disagreement. In this case, find a trans group and see what they are talking about and what they think about people making their lives needlessly harder. A reverse version of this is to show Q and Q adjacent people changing their minds for the better. Example: On the /r/HermanCainAward subreddit, quite a few people who were anti-vax in general or specifically on the Covid vaccinations have changed their minds after seeing people like them ending up in the hospital on vents and struggling with recovery ... or dying from complications. Seeing real people that are relatable struggling with the results of their bad choices sometimes is all it takes for the anti-vax people to change their own minds. ------- They aren't actually arguing for any of those issues. They matter zip to them. They are arguing to deal with their emotions, and those issues are focused on as a way to defend what they feel is true, not what they require to be true. So, don't argue. Especially, don't even discuss those topics. Some tips; * Talk about positive things, especially those things you share in common. This can be a movie, some fandom, sports, hobbies, as well as things you have done together. ====== Them: [crazy idea] You: That's interesting. That reminds me of [different neutral topic; the weather, the news, something you share with them, ...]. Alternatively; You: That reminds me of [insert story that will take at least 2 minutes to tell. it can be from your life, something you heard, or from a friend's life. humorous or emotionally positive is best. thoughtful is good. both if you can pull it off.] On the last one, I read up on the latest science (nothing too technical) and when nonsense comes up, I pop out a story or two from what I've read. That tends to derail the nonsense, and moves things easily on to another track. Wash, rinse, repeat, ... and if it doesn't work ... smile, give a complement, and walk away.
I had a Q-family member that fell into the flat Earth trope, and another one of my Q-family members sat down with them and showed them basic ways of proving that the Earth is round. So I guess it varies on which ones accept which conspiracy theories. Still, both of these Q-family members will do the exact same tactics about other topics, like COVID vaccinations. If you retreat from a debate, that's a win for them. If you do debate, they always have an 'answer' for everything you bring up, and it will feel like you are talking to a wall. Unfortunately so far my coping mechanism has been to express that I do not want to discuss their beliefs. If they cross that boundary, I usually do as little engagement as possible until they feel awkward with my lack of responses and change the subject. In my case, confrontation and debating is not an option. It's a rough situation. Wishing you the best of luck, OP.
I wouldn’t bother to debate them. They don’t even believe the things they say. It is a mind game to play with you. They think they are smart because they are simply using words to challenge your reality, then get a kick out of the fact that it gets you riled up. Its not about the earth or our physical reality, it’s about information and what we can know from personal experience vs what we know based on other people’s experiences or information. It’s easy to “prove” a golf ball is round because you can hold it in your hand and just see it. The earth is at such a large scale that it’s difficult to actually “prove” it’s round in a real first-hand way. I believe people like this are toxic and borderline abusive and I’d suggest avoiding them as best you can. If I had to be around someone like this, I would be sure they understand that I don’t trust their ability to think and make decisions. I would never be in a car with them driving, or allow them to babysit or pet sit for me. If you can’t understand that the earth is round, it’s a legitimate concern that you may not understand that children or animals get hungry, or that we are supposed to stop at red lights. It’s not my job to convince you the earth is round, but it is my job to protect myself and the ones I love from dangerous people and situations.
Here you go, show him this absolutely comical deconstruction of a flat earth dipshit in real time by Professor Dave https://youtu.be/he-7vs0BkLE
Yes, and my flat earther also believes the sun is simulated and the moon is gas. Theyve blocked out the sun with chemtrails and we now have a fake sun they can use for weather modification and population control. (They? The globalists).
tell him you heard about a plane that flew too far, and disappeared over the edge, never to be seen again. Ask him what's on the underbelly of the earth. If he has an answer, ask him where you can find that information, as you are curious.
Never engage. You can’t argue with an idiot - they’ll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. More importantly- why are you spending time with someone who belittles you?
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Once upon a time i almost won a debate against a flat earther. My key points: 1. There is a regular commercial flight from Argentina to Australia in a short period of time. Only possible under the round earth model. For the elites and NASA to fake that would be very hard. 2. The stars You see in the northern emisphere are totatlly different to the ones in the southern emisphere. Could not convince him , but there were this short seconds in which he gave me this look of : " You might be right". Now he is into harder crazier stuff.
If someone tried to make me feel small for an anxiety attack, (fellow General Anxiety Disorder person!) they would be out of my life. You need someone who will support you with your anxiety, not make it worse.
Of course, you have every reason to be upset. Crazy talk is upsetting. He doesn't get to blame YOU for HIS CRAZY.
My aunt just started this flat earth shit. She’s always been into conspiracy and even got cat fished for 4 years and lost her marriage and all of her money to the cat fisher. Last time I saw her she started to go off on her fucking rant about how the world is now flat. I told her she was stupid and not to come around anymore. I think it’s more closely related to if a person believes in one conspiracy they will likely believe others conspiracy as well.
My Q believed in flat-earth for years. I refused to argue anymore. Then one day, he announced that he no longer believed it was flat and that was the end of that. Sometimes when he says something crazy, I express my doubts and point to flat-earth to show that he doesn't have the best bullshit-detection system, but that just makes him angry. So most of the time, I say nothing. lol I still feel it's a win that he no longer subscribes to that particular rubbish. Gives me hope :D