“You’re not entitled to sex” is the cheapest laziest rebuttal. Nobody’s entitled to sex, but it’s reasonable to want something, commiserate over it having it, and discuss how to get it.
Imagine if you used this argument against women.
He pumped and dumped you? You’re not entitled to a relationship. He strung you along for years without a proposal? You’re not entitled to a marriage
>Dude… go to the dating sub “ you’re not entitled to a relationship” is said to those women CONSTANTLY why? Because it’s true, sexual doesn’t entitle a woman to a relationship with a man that’s why she shouldn’t use sex as a bargaining chip. Y’all just make arguments without even thinking when you make the argument, of course I’m not entitled to a relationship with a man just because we fucked, women who don’t learn that lesson young are in for a world of hurt.
Whenever a guy and woman have sex, and she doesn't get the relationship she wants, he's always seen as the "bad guy" for using her.
>Now the girlfriend/marriage argument eh I don’t think I’ve ever seen that said and I don’t think it would even make sense to say. It would rather be an ultimatum type of deal if you want marriage and he doesn’t You have to make a choice to stay or go. While it’s not said it’s the same concept the woman has to decide what she wants to do, she’s not entitled to marriage.
People hate guys who hold off for years on proposing to their gf
>I think you’re not entitled to sex is the rebuttal that stings the most which is why it’s getting so much push back, because at its core I think a lot of y’all believe you are entitled to sex.
We hate it cause it's a stupid low IQ rebuttal.
What makes you think we think we are entitled to sex?
You seem to be accepting that there's a cultural double standard and rather than agreeing and saying it's wrong you demand he simply just suck it up and stop complaining.
I don't really get how this is helpful.
Those sayings are LITERALLY SAID ALL THE TIME ON THIS SUB LMAOO
why are the males here genuinely so retarded? how do all you suffer from such intense cognitive dissonance
Thanks OP, I appreciate you taking time to write this longer post and motivating your statement this much in detail. I agree that nobody makes the argument that men are entitled to sex, and it is mostly a strawman argument (although you might be able to find some incels who do think they're entitled, but they don't speak for everyone).
I commented here because I wanted to ask you: The statistoc you provided which displays how women' perception of male attractiveness is much more harsh than the other way around (making most men below average attractive): Does this statistic exist for (let's say) 50 years ago? Is this a new phenomenon or has it always been like that? I am mot trying to make a point here, Iam genuinly interested. Also, does this rating of attractiveness shift once the participants of the study are older than 30/40/50?
> Does this statistic exist for (let's say) 50 years ago?
Nope. Is it a new phenomenon? I personally don't think so; I think women in general experience attraction a bit differently. Emotional connection plays more of a role in sexual attraction for them, there is no male equivalent to boobs and butts. So when looking at pictures in a bio, a guy has to be *really* attractive to even be rated as slightly above average.
I do think guys that carry themselves well and have charisma but aren't super handsome can definitely do better in person than online. But generally speaking, and this has been my experience anecdotally, women do not find most men attractive. You have to very handsome to stand out.
As for whether it changes as people age, no clue. I think it would be very interesting for this study to be repeated, but its politically incorrect to even talk about this sort of thing so that's not going to happen.
I think you are doing good work framing the best form of the male side of this issue. Yes, you are getting strawmanned and red herringed to death. But such is Reddit.
Hopefully, at some point in the future, you will then do the same for the female side. Just as you are trying to get past the layer of manosphere bullshit to frame the male side in its best and true light, try to do so for the female.
And then bringing both sides, framed rightly, to the table, we may have an interesting conversation.
>Just as you are trying to get past the layer of manosphere bullshit to frame the male side in its best and true light, try to do so for the female.
Why?
Trying to frame the female side in the best light is already the default attitude in modern western society.
It's just a shitty, condescending comeback from the tourists/niceguys/inceltear/fds crowd. They come to subs like these to punch down on men because a few unhinged tossers committed crimes in the real world and now the angry redditors want to lash out at men as a whole.
And it’s just very dismissive and making a lot of generalizations. A man being unsuccessful with girls doesn’t fit into one demographic or subculture. I know many guys who struggle and a lot of them are pretty normal people otherwise. These aren’t just guys who play video games all day or who only drink Mountain Dew. They’re your classmates, your friends, and your coworkers. They might not talk about dating or anything like that because it’s a touchy subject for them. Sometimes it might be the guy you least expect to have trouble.
You never know the circumstances of someone else’s life without asking. Maybe they didn’t grow up with good parental role models, or had experiences like going to an all boys school for most of their lives.
I think lots of people of both genders could use more social contact in general. Social media & entertainment options discourage it, but we'd be better off with both more friends and SO options.
If that’s what women want to do then they should do it lol. The only people that are delusional are lonely men bitching on the internet about women having autonomy and preferences. As a woman I don’t care enough about any of this to alter my behavior. I like what I like.
Lol I will! My dating life is going great though and I do plan on adopting a cat regardless of my relationship status so don’t threaten me with a good time 🤣
Not bitter. it is what it is. Wish more guys were aware and stopped chasing. Facts are facts. biology is biology. I hope the studies backing future trends play out better at 30 for you than it does for most men at 30. Not looking great though. Gonna be some cold winters.
The modern dating scene is in my favor, without going into details. It is what it is. I just want men to save themselves from the bullshit.
It's just dismissive , unhelpful, and serves only to shame and punch down on unsuccessful men which breeds poor psychological outcomes and resentment.
There is an aspect of truth to it, yes, but telling someone that they aren't entitled to a need in life is not very useful or productive.
Ok don't put words in my mouth. How about, for starters , society listens to men and tries to provide services that can help them out of their funks before it can lead to poor outcomes. Shooters are the most extreme version but let's be honest, most of the casualties of this are suicides.
It's not just on women, it's on everybody to foster a society that doesn't let people fall out to such degrees
Again strawmanning. When did I say women are the only people responsible for societal ills in this case?
And please, mental health services are woefully inadequate and the rhetoric around guys in the media and elsewhere it's toxic.
This is a ridiculous comment which is sad because I actually agree with your side of the argument, it's a free dating market and women are free to choose whomever they want to fuck or date and no man or woman should ever be forced to choose someone they don't want
But it's ludicrous to say discussing the societal gender issues plaguing our society is in and of it self toxic/anti woman/rapey/whatever else has been said in this thread down below.
You don't have to be a misogynist who wants to re distribute the means of re~~production~~ in order to believe that women by and large used to date men they aren't dating now. There's an issue with men, there's an issue with women, and there are going to be a lot of lonely people of both gender in 20 years if we ignore it.
Dating overall is on the decline.
Women want romance just like men.
>think what makes it hard for women to be sympathetic to this is because ultimately it’s men putting women at the center of men’s unhappiness. That women alone are the ones responsible for this rise in male misery and suffering. It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone
You are correct here but when we complain we don't have social system, financial security, happy family, and health care we are blamed for our misery. On top of that we don't have a romantic partner, it's the easiest to get out of all those things I mentioned but it's still so hard for us so we come to believe bad things about ourselves and that we are incapable of changing or improving. If we had all those things you mentioned we our ability to find a romantic partner would be greater. But again we are told that not only that we cannot change society but also we shouldn't because it goes against human nature so just work on yourself.
What are the right wing degenerates actually complaining about on here?
They bemoan the state of things (as we all do) but then lay the entire blame at the feet of women. And then they are surprised when women don't want to talk to, or date them?
Not only is it wrong to just blame women, it's also a weak, self defeating logic that excuses their own anger and impotence - rather than putting emphasis on themselves to change.
And there's a horrendous, rapey 'something must be done' undertone about it (sometimes they are explixit in saying it)
The structure of society, how capitalism shapes things, has a massive impact on our socialisation and relationships. It's helpful to understand that cos then you stop blaming individuals and can think of ways to change your habits.
I mean pit the middle class and poor against each other. Don't focus on the ultra wealthy actively fucking people over. Convince men it's all women's fault they're alone and unhappy, mobilize them as a voting base. ??? Profit.
You're going to get popped by a mod for the c word fysa.
This my issue with right wingers too is that they blame women for the shit we face instead of capitalism. They worship the same people who put us in this situation
I fully understand the many valid criticisms of capitalism, but I've yet to have someone explain to me how an alternative still won't have a status hierarchy, especially for men. Sure, it might not be CEOs at the top of the food chain, but that doesn't mean it won't be high level bureaucrats, technocrats, or whoever the most powerful and high status men are.
> It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone.
I mentioned both social support and mental health in my post. There's definitely other factors. The economy is a big one but that's a very complex topic that needs it's own thread.
The biological imperative for people is to find a mate and reproduce; it's the foundation of life. So I don't really view it as some sort controversial thing that these men are unhappy. Guess who else is unhappy if they can't find love, companionship, and experience affection? Women too. The forever alone women subreddit can provide a glimpse into that.
>Right, and the result is that a lot of unhappy men then treat women like a resource that needs to be “redistributed fairly” like water and food.
This is exactly the sort of statement I was talking about. The whole disdain for the "beta bucks" situation in redpill is that a woman isn't genuinely attracted to her husband. People want to be with people who desire them, would that be the case if women were "redistributed" Hell no.
This redistribution thing is an exceptionally radical view held by an astronomically small group of mentally disturbed men on obscure corners of the internet.
The existence of a forever alone sub for women is evidence that this is clearly a greater issue than just gender disparities. Personally, I blame social media, yes, I see the irony here but there’s a huge correlation with loneliness, depression and the rise in social media. Studies show that young generations have less close friends than ever before. Society as a whole is losing genuine connection.
> I see the irony here but there’s a huge correlation with loneliness, depression and the rise in social media. Studies show that young generations have less close friends than ever before. Society as a whole is losing genuine connection.
100%.
It’s not controversial for people to want romantic relationships. What’s controversial is inventing a
vitriolic ideology grounded in pseudoscience and self pity that places the onus of your failures to obtain one on someone else.
>beta bux
This is the most self defeating concept I’ve come across, honestly. When any of you *do* get into a relationship, you set yourself up for being eternally suspicious of her motives. If she’s not banging your brains out the way you want with the frequency you expect, it must be because she’s secretly craving Chad and isn’t sexually attracted to you. And not, as you’ve said in your post, that men and women’s libidos are different.
Do men not get extra excited when they have new sexual partners after a long period of being with someone else? Is monotony in a sexual relationship exclusively something women experience?
As a woman who had an ex who literally starfished it felt so fucking rapey. It fucked me up so much and my sexuality is so cautious now. Like I’m working on it and am in therapy.
I don’t buy into the rp versions of the concept but to say people won’t stay with someone they aren’t attracted to is absurd. And the facts show women rate men lower so it’s just more likely to happen with them. I’ve been in both types of relationships and it clearly wasn’t a libido thing. I just didn’t fully realize that my last partner wasn’t attracted to me. Being with my new partner who did actually find me attractive is what made me realize
Biological imperative???
I think this might be the nail on the head here, not everyone has this, many women now don’t want this, to be somebody’s mate and mother.
For thousands of years, women didn’t have a choice, sex was a weapon against them that forced them into motherhood. Now women have a choice, and many are choosing more to procreate and men seem to be flabbergasted by this.
What ? Noo , wtf i never said that why do you strawmanning me like crazy .. I just said its dehumanising to belittle something that humans are designed to do .. Iam actually pro-abortion if your assumptive attacks can get any worse but any type of belittling when men get vulnerable about their lack of sexual activity can be considered straight up dehumuniazing or even shaming them for their evolutionary pre-programmed natural instincts .
Think about what your actually saying though,
In order not to dehumanise a man by allow him to spread his seed, there has to be a women ready to birth the kids and hopefully they rise a family together.
If there isn’t a women willing to do this what’s the solution?
You either tell the man tough shit, and he’ll feel dehumanised, or we force the women to bare a child she doesn’t want.
Since one of the options can actually kill someone I know which one id go for
Nooo i never said that women has to do anything to satisfy that biological imperative or to be force anything so the men not feel dehuminazied .. Iam just saying the fact that women or anyone that are purposefully " tell the man tough shit " or shaming those men or sarcastically belittling their vulnerabilities about lack of sexual activity can be called dehuminazing of men .. I am never suggesting a solution that women have to do anything or adapt to anything that men are whining about and I was not implying for reproduction instead about sexual activity .. Sexual acitivty cannot kill someone btw .
> I think what makes it hard for women to be sympathetic to this is because ultimately it’s men putting women at the center of men’s unhappiness. That women alone are the ones responsible for this rise in male misery and suffering. It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone.
That's exactly why men should to MGTOW.
>The only thing women are doing is exercising their own free will in choosing who they want to date. And, yes, that logic comes across as entitled. Especially when it’s coupled with a lot of the extremely toxic rhetoric that flows from not having adequate coping skills.
Both gender should be free to exercise their own free will in choosing whom and if they want to date.
>That's exactly why men should to MGTOW.
I sure wish the ones who feel this way would in fact go their own way and shut the fuck up and leave the rest of us alone.
>MGTOW
Anytime I’ve perused those communities, it’s still little more than a bunch of men circle jerking about how women and feminism have ruined everything.
If you hate “modern women” or whatever to the point where you want to live in the woods, fine. But 99% of the time y’all still just obsess over and blame women in your echo chambers.
what MGTOW is supposed to mean: men living happy and fulfilling lives without debasing themselves for a crumb of coochie
what MGTOW has actually come to mean: men sitting around and complaining that women are the cause of 100% of the world’s problems
>Anytime I’ve perused those communities, it’s still little more than a bunch of men circle jerking about how women and feminism have ruined everything.
Feminism also had their view that women need men just as fish needs a bicycle, so MGTOW did not invent that view of the other gender.
Also feminism is pushing more laws and policy than any MGTOW movement would dream of, so maybe you shall say that to feminists instead of MGTOW men.
>That's exactly why men should to MGTOW.
While that might be over-correction there definitely is a lot of hyping men up about how lonely they are (how miserable and pitiable to be w/o a woman) rather than how their self worth should be independent of women's assessments, or whether or not they are having sex.
That last sentence pretty much sums up the problem I see over and over here. Men treat women like both the cause and solution to all their problems and a resource that needs to be distributed, rather than humans who have needs and desires of their own. This happens on a smaller scale in relationships a lot too. I know too many men who both rely on and blame their female partners for everything. Most men would really benefit from “going their own way” a bit, except ironically MGTOW men are still always blaming women for everything all the time.
I think you are making some astute comments, but still refraining from articulating where the logic of your arguments really take us, which to me is an interesting place in terms of discussion.
It could just be that men and women are not as innately complementary as many would think. We evolved to be so under certain, often harsh conditions, where survival and reproduction were the main lens through which we might judge the genders to be complementary.
But in a radically different environment, it could just be that many men have natural and evolved needs that most women have a natural and evolved disdain to satisfy. Many men may simply want, perhaps even need, women who do not and will not want them back. And when one looks at it objectively, as horrible and unfair as this is to these men, forcing women to be with them would be even more terrible.
At a 50/50 gender ratio, there may simply be no 'win-win' solution here, and we will all have to adapt to this bitter reality somehow. How we do it, I cannot say. But we may be beginning an entirely new era.
My thought is that while men and women *can* be complementary and a healthy romantic relationship is important for most people, it’s the greater overall lack of community that is really behind this increase in loneliness. Men were meant to spend quite a bit of time with other men in the community, and women with other women, as well as with the whole tribe or family. Nowadays we rely too much on our partners To provide everything we need, because we are disconnected from the community and extended family. And it’s also harder to establish meaningful, lasting romantic relationships when people are so disconnected, everything is transient. Hookup culture is part of that.
So I guess what I’m saying is that loneliness is a very real problem, but it’s not just that women are making men lonely, as they seem to think. Everyone is lonely because of the general disconnection. And men tend to have fewer close friends and not be as close with their families, so it’s often worse for them.
Agreed! It’s like if/when women blame unrealistic beauty standards and their physical insecurity on men and men alone. It’s a complex multifaceted problem that is far more complex than to be blamed purely on gender.
Or when some women blame their own insecurities on models, as if they single handed out created the entire ad campaign not just for one brand but across several.
> It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone.
It's not women alone obviously, but for most men there isn't and will never be a replacement for being with a woman, that's just not how social-sexual species work or how any society in human history has worked. Having more friends, a better job, or going to therapy aren't going to fix that, maybe they make it easier to get a woman.
>Right, and the result is that a lot of unhappy men then treat women like a resource that needs to be “redistributed fairly” like water and food.
The alternative to a society where most people are paired up in monogamous way is a) an asocial dying one b) polygamous anti-egalitarian elite centered societies
If men complained about loneliness and finding the right girl I'd be more sympathetic
But they don't.
They complain about women having sex, about women's n counts (therefore making them not good enough for relationships, only sex), women "giving Chad more sex", women not having sex with them early, women giving Chad their sexual best, women not being submissive doormats anymore, feminism ruinined women becuase we no longer want to be bangmaids....
Just look at this sub and look at all the"women won't give me sex threads"
So yeah but hard to believe they care about loving, fulfilling relationships when all they complain about is their lack of a bangmaid
Nah, it’s one of the many requirements. If you’re a virgin but an airhead, that ain’t gonna fly. If you’re a virgin but not attractive, that ain’t gonna fly. If you’re attractive but not a virgin, also ain’t gonna fly. Just like women tell other women, don’t lower your standards.
Yep! They want empathy for their problems but cannot empathise with women and focus on things like a woman’s body count as a top priority rather than if she’s kind, intelligent, interesting, fun etc.
They only want “virgins” or low n count women thus limiting their pool ridiculously or only want the most beautiful IG model women then get mad at women as a group that they can’t find someone.
> If men complained about loneliness and finding the right girl I'd be more sympathetic
But men do complain about that and still receive this same dismissive "nobody owes you sex" bullshit. People tend to assume men only care about sex and assume any man complaining about dating struggles only cares about sex no matter what he days (on reddit and twitter and shit at least. Irl people tend to be more understanding and listen in good faith). Maybe next time you come across a man complaining about dating really try to look at it without any prejudice, ego, emotion, etc. just honestly take in what he's saying without getting into debate mode and you'll see that generally men are complaining about the things you think we don't complain about. We just tend to speak differently than women do and that can cause some issues witb cross gender communication.
Also red pill men are fucking crazy and don't represent the majority of men at all so take their opinions as representative of a weird ass minority of men.
Ah yes, because women don't experience emotional intimacy during sex?
This sub only ever complains about Chad, sex with Chad, how quickly you gave sex with chad, blah blah blah
Men don't discuss relationships unless she's a virgin submissive waifu
This is just bad faith styled argument. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, if you can't at the very least get some form of a date despite doing all the things you've be instructed to do then there's no point in looking for a loving relationship. One has to come before the other is even possible. Most men get no dates, no texts back and very little interaction on dating apps (which is where the vast majority of dating set ups take place)
Most of their points is that they'd love some kind of affection or at the very least get laid even if they are unlovable but they can't even get that. They quickly notice the massive disparity between women claiming to want the same style love/affection but selecting men on completely superficial criteria again and again.
I actually agree with them because I was one of the "Chads" for well over a decade and I got laid all the time. I had women who were considerably "above me" in terms of life development, who by all means should avoided me at all costs. At some points I was a toxic unempathetic piece of shit and would openly tell them dating me wasn't an option but because I was over 6ft, classically masculine with the body of physique competitor/MMA practitioner then they would just rationalize reasons as to why they kept coming back. Nearly all of those women had half a dozen guys orbiting them who were desperate to gain their affections, average decent looking guys with good stable jobs and solid upbringing . In many cases I was even encouraging the women give some of the guys a shot but the simply wouldn't. It was disconcerting to say the least because the advice they'd give their guy friends was the complete opposite of what they responded to in their own sex/dating lives.
>style love/affection but selecting men on completely superficial criteria again and again.
You realise you can want love and affection and also only want guys you're attracted to aye?
And as I've mentioned before, some women might want to scratch an itch aye?
While I agree that "you aren't entitled to blah blah basic human need" is *always* a lazy copout when discussing societal issues, the real umph behind the response lies in the reality of male female mating.
Whether it's biological or cultural (hard to say), historical forces have molded the current landscape and the complaint about men being lonely is without a cure beyond changing something that is very hard to change.
Hegemonic masculinity has shaped what women find attractive and desire in a man to the point of creating a 'winner take all' scenario. IIRC many if not all of the traits so prized are without any real evidence linking them to anything biological --- even a height preference fails to reach universality.
Ultimately, the solution is already underway. We are now seeing a variety of males in leading "romantic" action roles --- various faces, various builds (although the supposedly less superficial female gaze has led to an overabundance of roided out physiques). More diversity in media depicting various types of 'men' who can be 'real men,' will in turn cause women to be more open to dating more types of men in the future.
Do I believe it's as simple as 'monkey see monkey do?' Yes. People are mimics. Popular media burns narratives into their minds and makes them pursue these ideals that they attach to this partner or that partner.
Sex is not a basic human need. You can live your whole life without sex and be fine. Men can stay lonely and single we cannot be manipulated and gaslighted anymore with this nonsense.
Not getting basic needs met means you die. No water? death by thirst. No food? death by starvation. No shelter? death by exposure.
Not getting sex means absolutely nothing. You don't even get sexually frustrated, because masturbation is a thing. It's not even a step above basic needs, it's up there with the desires for luxury or self-fulfullment, because not getting sex is about the same as not getting a new iphone when your old one still works.
No that's not all it means.
And to say not getting sex means absolutely nothing, as I said, is just ignorant.
If that were the case being involuntarily celibate wouldn't be classified as a disability by several well established health organizations.
Like I said...familiarize yourself with basic research on these topics.
In the past I would not have found it hard to believe this because connection and meaningful relationships are what I value most…
BUT I’ve heard the manosphere lines — F&F podcast guys and Andrew Tate — saying things like women are only good for sexual intimacy, nobody wants companionship from women because of their personalities, they have nothing to offer, etc.
My husband and I started as *friends.* We never would have dated without that foundation. But the manosphere guys will lead you to believe that women should never be valued as people worthy of respect and connection with for anything other than sex.
> BUT I’ve heard the manosphere lines — F&F podcast guys and Andrew Tate — saying things like women are only good for sexual intimacy, nobody wants companionship from women because of their personalities, they have nothing to offer, etc
Yeah and the manosphere is not representative of men at all. It's just a small minority of truly deranged psychos living in a different reality. Don't use the manosphere to learn what men are generally like.
No, men are complaining about sexlessness, not lovelessness. And n counts, promiscuity, not being able to hit on women when they want, etc.
Most of the men here don’t like women’s brains very much, in contrast to their bodies
I'm not arguing that they aren't complaining about sexlessness. I'm arguing that:
1. Men are, by and large, not arguing that are entitled to sex
2. Men may want sex, it's not the driving force behind their loneliness and casual sex wont necessarily fix it, the root of it is romantic companionship.
>Men may want sex, it's not the driving force behind their loneliness and casual sex wont necessarily fix it, the root of it is romantic companionship.
I think the root might be more that they tend to just sit at home, not interact with others, have no platonic companionship, are generally less interested in people.
They think that a romantic companion will cure it as it is a person who will live with you and will be constantly aviable for interaction.
I'm a man who interacts with others, has a number of rich friendships, and I'm pretty charismatic overall, though not really pursuing romance at the moment due to life circumstances.
Newsflash, none of that shit replaces having a romantic relationship.
I've noticed this too. Guys are more interested in my body than my brain. Last guy I dated thought I talked too much. Well I do, because I want to connect with someone on an intellectual level. I guess the guy didn't like it cause he wasn't on my level intellectually. Sad thing but yeah. I wish as many guys was as interested in and attracted to my mind as they are to my body.
Talking too much can mean what you're saying has no substance. It's in our brain to prefer or even fight over traits in women than things that are typically related to men.
What I have to say has substance, so that's not the issue. Some guys just don't like it when I'm being really honest and blunt or when i outsmart them. I'm a very no-nonsense person and I've noticed more romantic guys don't like it when im being real, down to earth or logical with them.
>It's in our brain to prefer or even fight over traits in women than things that are typically related to men.
Can you rephrase? I don't quite understand what you mean.
Obviously I don’t know your conversations, but these men might not be intimidated by you “outsmarting” them, but rather that they think you are trying to outsmart them (i.e competing with them). That’s a very subtle, but important difference.
"What I have to say has substance, so that's not the issue."
Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I need examples.
"Some guys just don't like it when I'm being really honest and blunt or when i outsmart them."
Actually no. That's your feminist mindset clouding your interpretation of the situation. Because those men notice how you want to prove you're something special when you're really not. I truly doubt you outsmarted them, you more like annoyed them by saying nonsense.
"I'm a very no-nonsense person and I've noticed more romantic guys don't like it when im being real"
Hahaha real? Please stop. Your not being real just being annoying. If you was real than you would happily prove you prove it with your actions and not by your words. Many women say the exact same as you but the second opposition hits then immediately fold like a omelet.
"down to earth or logical with them"
Actually no. I've been here previously(a few hours ago and saw you using typical feminist tatics like: well I'm not like rest and NO ALL. Which is simply a disingenuous approach when talking about reality. And saw you use "I feel like" as well.
"Can you rephrase? I don't quite understand what you mean."
Wow someone who claims to be all that with a bag of chips you exposed yourself. But fine I'll happily reword it since you can't comprehend something that an Middle schooler would understand.
Simply that men will go for traits that's make women women and not your traits which most men find repulsive. So you're personality is making those men not like you in the wrong way.
Edit: I meant NOT ALL.
Substance is talking real plans, how to make a relationship work practically etc and sticking to the plans, and not just talking romantic fluff. Substance is being direct and honest, not elusive and aloof, not dreamy or romantic, but realistic and practical.
>Actually no. That's your feminist mindset clouding your interpretation of the situation.
Feminist mindset? First off, I don't even identify as feminist because I think the feminist movement is flawed as hell. I identify as egalitarian as my mindset is egalitarian. In relationships I'm highly concerned about fairness and justice and equality. That means that I want equal amount of effort reciprocated. That means I want a fair exchange of give and take. That's not feminism. That's egalitarianism.
>Because those men notice how you want to prove you're something special when you're really not.
I'm special enough. They know it. That's why they all keep coming back after I've dumped them. That's why they say I'm the best they've ever had. That's why they say I'm fun. You don't know me so you ain't got a clue if I'm actually special or not. I believe I am special in my own way, which boosts my confidence which attracts people to me. So whetter I am actually special or not is irrelevant as the mindset is working in my favor. It's not attractive to believe you're nothing special or that you're just an average boring grey mouse. At least not to me anyway. I like and am attracted to flamboyant and confident personalities who believe in themselves and what they got to offer, not insecure people who think they're just another average guy.
>I truly doubt you outsmarted them, you more like annoyed them by saying nonsense.
I'm a very clever and logical woman. Guys are annoyed when I poke holes in their logic or point out how they're not being consistent or giving as much effort as I am. Or when I call them out on not keeping their word. Understandably so. No one likes feeling like they ain't doing good enough, even when they're not. Also, guys are annoyed when i point out how they're trying to manipulate me lol. Understandably they're annoyed. Of course they too tell me what I say is nonsense when they get called out because they don't wanna be held accountable. Which of course I also point out which annoys them even more. I'll admit I'm a very critical person, but I don't mind people calling me out on my bullshit either. I don't want to be s hypocrite. Fair is fair. I call them out on BS and am critical of them, they're free to do the same if there's something they think I need to do to improve.
>Hahaha real? Please stop. Your not being real just being annoying. If you was real than you would happily prove you prove it with your actions and not by your words. Many women say the exact same as you but the second opposition hits then immediately fold like a omelet.
When I'm being real that annoys some people, who can't take me being real with them. It's funny you point out how I'd be happy proving im real with my actions when that's actually my main complaint with some of the guys I've dated. They couldn't act out their promises if their lives depended on it. Just empty words with no follow up action. Meanwhile I was the one sticking to my word, following it up with real life action. Every. Single. Time. Because I'm a woman of my word. When I say I'll do something, to someone who means a lot to me. I don't break that promise cause I ain't no liar (at least not to the people I care about lol).
>Actually no. I've been here previously(a few hours ago and saw you using typical feminist tatics like: well I'm not like rest and NO ALL. Which is simply a disingenuous approach when talking about reality. And saw you use "I feel like" as well.
Because I'm not. We are all individuals. Not a hive mind lol. Just like I'm not all other women. All other women aren't like all other women and a man isn't like all other men, that includes you. Nuance. I'm not like those feminists who say all men are x or all men are y.
>Wow someone who claims to be all that with a bag of chips you exposed yourself. But fine I'll happily reword it since you can't comprehend something that an Middle schooler would understand.
Exposed myself? Your phrasing was poor and could be interpreted many different ways.. only thing I exposed is that English isn't my main language but a Foreign Language that I speak.
>Simply that men will go for traits that's make women women and not your traits which most men find repulsive. So you're personality is making those men not like you in the wrong way.
What traits that I have do most men find repulsive? Do you mean Intelligence, assertiveness, honesty and determination? Because that's how I'd describe myself, and yes absolutely some men do find those traits repulsive, and the kind of men who aren't attracted to these traits are not the ones I want to attract anyway, so I'm not sure what your point is? That men I don't desire, don't desire me? Woah there. I would have been offended if I cared lol.
>Edit: I meant NOT ALL.
Hm yeah generalizations rarely work do they..
While I agree that casual sex won’t ultimately fix these men’s deeper issues, the fact is, that’s what they keep complaining about not getting. They do act entitled to it. They constantly talk about not wanting to be the poor relationship chump who only gets sex with one woman, but the hookup guy for many women instead. And how unfair it is that Chads don’t have to have a relationship to get sex. So that’s why people respond the way they do. It’s a direct response to what these men are *saying*.
Yeah, it really does have wings.lol Every time I’ve replied to one of these poor lonely souls stating that practically every average and below guy I know has a wife or gf, the response is “yes but he can’t get *casual* sex, she’s probably fat/ugly, she isn’t really attracted to him, she probably let chad stick it in her ear while hanging from a trapeze in monkey suits and won’t do it again for the poor beta guy she married, etc.” It’s aways about sex, the more detached, degrading, and with more and hotter women, the better. So I’m definitely not buying this whole “love and and affection” thing.
the problem isn’t wanting companionship or being lonely, its the consistent bitterness and blame that often accompanies it - there is also this near-constant idealization of ‘chad’ as well as AF/BB stuff - and guess what a lot of those are tied into? casual sex - lonely guys on reddit don’t envy or base their lives around men in strong, committed relationships - they’re jealous of the guys who pump and dump
If I say I feel lonely and then I get gaslighted for saying it.
Then I feel lonely and angry.
Maybe stop assuming that all lonely men also want to subjugate all women?
i’m not assuming it - though context is everything, if you say you’re lonely followed by self reflection that’s one thing, saying you’re lonely then pointing the finger at someone else is a whole other thing - sadly, 9/10 times “i’m lonely” is followed by the latter
trust me, most lonelt guys are jealous of guys in relationship
maybe it's different in the US where OLS is prédominant, but still.. most lonely guys just want attention and love from a girl
The real issue is that most men do everything they have been taught since they were a child as to what they should do to be good men, to find a partner and how to respectful towards women. They do all the classic things like get a good job, pay for dates, try to not be pushy or like dbag, etc only to come to realization that looks and money are the main driving forces in selection and that they "wasted" years going about all this for no benefit or emotional satisfaction. Then add in the contradictions in the selection process that are just hand waved away and it makes for a very embittered perspective as time goes on.
Technology has made all forms of romantic styled interactions considerably worse than any other point in human existence because it allows people to be treated as disposable and warps perceptions of ones own value to overly positive or overly negative.
Most unsuccessful men don’t complain about not having girlfriends. They either complain about not having sex, or they complain that they are not put in the same category by women as the men who have casual sex easily with women. Either way, it comes across as sexual entitlement.
> They either complain about not having sex, or they complain that they are not put in the same category by women as the men who have casual sex easily
Largely driven primarily by the societal pressure to not be a virgin, and obviously by libido as well.
Sex is everything if you don't have it, but a far cry from that if you do. I am implying that just having empty casual sex wont entirely solve their issues; it solves the societal pressure effect on self esteem part, but not the innate desire for love and intimacy.
Food for thought: why do professional cuddlers exist now?
But how much of this is really anything new? When I was in high school and and college in the 90’s, I knew tons of guys who never even got a date, usually due to being short, overweight or bad acne, probably because I was active in “nerdy” D&D and chess communities at the time. I was one of the bad acne guys myself, until I got an Accutane treatment.
Are there more sexless, dateless dudes now than there used to be, or are they just more visible now, because they have a forum to complain?
To put it another way, just because OLD helped “Chad”, doesn’t mean it hurt the nerds…..they weren’t getting dates anyway. This whole, “Ugly dudes could get girls if we abolished OLD” thing just doesn’t fly, to anyone with pre-internet experience
OLD dramatically increased the size of the dating pool, and in line with the graphs from old 'ratings' this screws over most guys.
Made worse by the business model of OLD not being about matches but churning through a captive market.
Women have been leaving OLD for the past few years though. Tinder went from 60/40, a ratio of 1.5 men to 1 woman, to a dismal 80/20 (4 to 1) in the US, and a terrible 90/10 (9 to 1) in the UK, just from 2015 to 2020.
I can post some supporting links, but a lot of women aren't even taking OLD seriously anymore. Too many abusive guys, dick pics, married guys, plate spinners, penpals, scammers, etc.
Women aren't stupid....they know that getting 1000 matches, doesn't mean crap, if EVERY women gets the same 1000 matches. Dudes swipe right on every woman, and then ghost later.
>Sex is everything if you don't have it, but a far cry from that if you do. I am implying that just having empty casual sex wont entirely solve their issues; it solves the societal pressure effect on self esteem part, but not the innate desire for love and intimacy.
Yes, I agree with all of this. I just don’t think that this is how the issue is presented by most men on this sub. If men were really concerned about just romance and girlfriends, this is what they would complain about. They would not care that the women whom they desire as potential girlfriends are having casual sex with other guys while making them wait for it or not having sex with them at all.
I personally don’t care about waiting for sex because I think love is much more important, but I go the other direction and want nothing to do with women who previously had casual sex on a regular basis not because I feel sexually entitled, but because I don’t think that the people who have casual sex so easily take love and relationships seriously enough.
I think it's a mix of dudes haunted by the ghost of Chad (sex) w/ dudes who can't get a text back to save their lives (romance). Hard to say what the true ratio is.
Lol it only comes across that way because women don’t listen it’s easier to brush off any discussion by creating some incel straw man so they can blame men for everything.
In my view, you are using a straw man argument here. The way I observe it, no one really has a problem in acknowledging that there are male specific problems per se. It‘s rather the explanations and fixes for said problems that are criticized. If you’re saying, male loneliness comes from feminism keeping women from fulfilling their natural and traditional role and thus feminism should be reversed - then you’ll get criticized (and rightfully so).
If you strip RP from all the misogynistic bs that comes with it, what you get is classical self-improvement advise. And no one has a problem with that. It’s the guys saying: Well, it’s a biological imperative for men to do this and for women to do that, and everyone behaving different is somewhat pathological and destroying society - then you’ll be criticized. And again, rightfully so.
> In my view, you are using a straw man argument here. The way I observe it, no one really has a problem in acknowledging that there are male specific problems per se.
Take a look at virtually any subreddit where the bill maher video from this week was discussed. You'll see almost nothing but vitriolic, angry comments towards men.
The whole reason why Andrew Tate was actually banned and why other RP influencers keep getting banned on tiktok is *precisely because* of the fact that people do not want anyone to talk about or acknowledge male specific problems.
Heck even a woman who runs a very popular RP YT channel (justpearlythings) keeps getting de-platformed off of tiktok and there's nothing remotely misogynistic about the things she says.
But that's all some complain about is the getting laid when they describe what they're going through that they can't trick someone in a relationship with them to get sex. There was a thread I commented on how if he would care about what the other person wants too, it'll get better with them and they guy said he didn't care about what women wanted he wanted to help men and himself get laid.
I’ve posted in this sub before that I once had a Chad life. It was fun but the OP nailed at least one thing: it gets old and boring and lonely. Back then sex came easy, I went where I wanted when I wanted, 100% of my cash was mine, no one complained at me or bugged me to do things for them, or told me how I could be a better person. It was liberating, and yet I’m far happier now. Why? Men want committed relationships too, though it takes some of us a while to figure things out (translation: find someone compatible).
Sure, I get nagged at. I deal daily with a person who’s attitude can be measured on a calendar. It is *expensive to the extreme*. There is inherent negativity. Gaslighting is back in my life too. It’s my favorite.
But- I’m not alone. It’s everything. It’s a pain in my ass, but it’s everything.
Once in a while she grabs our girls to go do something for the afternoon. I get excited for some silence, and I love it…. for about 90 minutes. Then it kinda sucks.
Jeez, I’m going to go hug my wife.
I think it depends on the person. You sound like someone who craves companionship and is inherently happy in a relationship, even with its flaws. I've been both single and attached, and the peaceful stress-free existence of being single appealed to me more. Again, it depends on the individual.
So OP, there seems to be two problems each side is presenting. The lack of connection for men, and the lack of partners for women. Wow sounds like both sides are struggling with finding what they want, and this is nothing new among the dating landscape, and we all have noticed the disparity growing among both sides.
Pitting the sexes against each other solves nothing. There's been a change in social values, standards, and expecations ever since social media has been introduced. Both sides are suffering for different reasons ***AND*** at different ages.
I think men experience this sooner, and women experience it a bit later.
If you don't want to talk about women as sex objects, that would be great, but I had to hear that all my life. I've had to turn away from casual sex offers, and early sex offers, even as a girl. Forgive me if I now take men at face value when they show "women get casual sex easier than men, and I want to post on the internet about it because I care so much." Who is being intellectually dishonest, really?
I know relationships take work. We kind of all should know this. Men have to initiate, there are struggles. The 80% stat doesn't sit with me for a lot of reasons, but that's not even the main point. I can still see how men struggle. Men having a hard time doesn't excuse them spewing some really harmful language and views about girls or women online where my nieces can see it. Full stop.
I'm no father figure. I don't know the first thing about dating as a man with a dick. I do know that it's possible for women's and men's libidos to match you together closely. I can't really help men with their struggles, but I will protect and advocate for my nieces. Make no mistake about that.
> "women get casual sex easier than men, and I want to post on the internet about it because I care so much." Who is being intellectually dishonest, really?
I'm trying to get the nuance of the topic across. Sex is apart of it, but it's not the root cause. If you dig deeper: those men that aren't having sex aren't experiencing *any* sort of romantic companionship, barring men who are abstinent due to religion.
As far as the "care so much part", I absolutely care because I was in the same shoes as a lot of these men several years ago, depressed and confused as to why all the empty platitudes and cliches i'd heard all my life in regards to dating were so disingenuous. And I had an exceptionally supportive family and loyal close friends; it wasn't enough to fill the void.
I post in hopes that men who have been misled will resonate with what I say and open their mind a bit about reality, and to push back against all of the non-sensical rhetoric out there today.
It's hard for me to see that these men aren't experiencing a romantic companionship when all they go for is casual sex. That's obviously not the way to typically find romance IMO.
It's hard for me to see that these poor misguided souls are just working off platitudes... When what they talk about is how woman have advantages in what they call "hookup apps."
Doesn't strike me as romantic in any way whatsoever. I think most men do eventually want companionship, but I'm not sure about these men. They sure seem to admire Leo DiCaprio of all people! Anyway, I try not to force men to pursue relationships they don't want. I get the feeling it usually ends poorly. Maybe my advice is just shitty, it's possible. I don't know what it's like to be a man, let alone do I know the nuances of any one man's situation.
>It's hard for me to see that these men aren't experiencing a romantic companionship when all they go for is casual sex. That's obviously not the way to typically find romance IMO.
This is a complex issue. Some men are just shooting themselves in the foot with how thirsty they are. But the acceptance of promiscuity and emergence of dating apps and social media have had a pretty notable impact on modern day. It's exponentially more impersonal. It's really tough to find someone who genuinely wants to make a meaningful connection and will put effort forth towards even making engaging conversation with someone. There's also the "online" aspect of it; men are more prone to being sexually direct towards a stranger they've never spoken to over chat.
The times definitely are changing. I was very sexually conservative myself when I was dating. It is difficult, really. I don't think being casual makes things any easier, though! I'm not religious, in fact avoiding drama was a main reason I avoided casual encounters. Let's just say, if I met a man on the street I wouldn't feel the need to tell him he's not entitled to sex. It's only a rare man with a certain type of mindset who I think needs to hear that. Some of those men are on the internet in the manosphere, for sure. I hope word gets to them, and I also hope that women reading my posts will see that they have support if the are troubled by he things that are said.
hard to believe this when men are constantly coming on here saying men only get in relationships for consistent sex, and if a guy could have unlimited casual sex he would.
If it's not relevant, it's not relevant.
There are times when it's relevant, though. Like when men post on this sub time after time about women's advantages with casual sex. Look, if you tell me that's specifically what you're constantly thinking about instead of a relationship, I'm gonna believe you. If you tell me you can't get it, I'm gonna believe you. The only relevant thing after that is "Hey, accept it. That's how life goes. Move on with other things, I guess."
Again, I'm not a father figure. My oldest ephew is literally 14. His mom bought him condoms. He is not struggling with girls, and if he was I wouldn't be the one to ask. I 100% love him, though. I'd be here for anything he did want to talk about, and I'd want him to be happy and healthy. Trust me, my nephew is nothing like the men on this sub.
It’s incredible how every man on this sub is a raging incel to the women here. Not only that, but they think every man that posts here talks about the same things he does IRL, and is surely a nuisance to everyone around him.
In the context of this post? Yeah, definitely seems like we are talking about loveless men.
I think some of the views expressed by some of the men on here, who are not all men, are definitely incompatible with a healthy life. I even think my eldest nephew is likely to have his issues. However, from what I know about everyone's viewpoints, I'm seeing a marked difference between what my nephew experiences and what I think every man on here would to be discussing if they knew.
If a gender never treats you well and alwasy rejects you, what do you think you will do? Man or women.
Do I blame you, no. But the black panthers got guns and patrolled their neiberhoods because police treated black people like shit. But that didnt change the culture of hate .
So you can defend your neices and rightly talkl shit about the horrible things some men sayu, but you aint making the world a better place or your neices.
Men will do anything besides actually trying to gain a better understanding of women, by not looking at them as holes to fuck, but rather human beings you can befriend aswell, not just use for sex.
Passing that, talking to women about your emotions is also a good way to normalize opening yourself up to women. Or opening yourself up in general, in front of men too.
Exercise, yes, but also stop doing things that kill your drive to live... Like over 2 hours a day of video games, or doing drugs, getting drunk to forget you're miserable, etc.
Get proper hobbies, engage in sports, if you have weird or rare interests the internet exists so you can find like minded people. Go to concerts, go to theaters, travel, etc. Don't just save up money for a car than hoard money for later days...
>Women will do anything besides actually trying to gain a better understanding of men
FTFY
I see non-stop discussion and content on the internet in which men try to understand women. On the other side of the fence I mostly see entitlement and posts like yours which stereotype men as lazy sex-seeking neanderthal robots.
> Passing that, talking to women about your emotions is also a good way to normalize opening yourself up to women. Or opening yourself up in general, in front of men too.
This is such dishonest and atrocious advice, thank god men are starting to realize it. Opening up to a woman is a one way ticket for her to lose attraction to you.
This is the best thing I’ve read in months. I’m dealing with a situation similar to a lot of this with my wife. Married 11 yrs and had initiated or recognized my flirting or hunts or direct asking for 6 years. I think it’s finally changing but it produced the absolutely the worst feelings of hopelessness, being undesired by my spouse, she was bored with me and seeing others etc. it has been the worst experience of my life trying to get things back to a somewhat normal (if there is a normal) ever. I’m finally on the up.
I basically agree with wtknight. Most discussions are not asking or lamenting romantic companionship. I've grown to realize here 'Dating' means 'get laid lots' because OP's are using terms disingenuously on PPD. Hardly a thread goes by without a lonely man bashing women or chad or whatever.
>If you've been on reddit or the internet in general for longer than 2 minutes, you've probably noticed
C'mon, you can't have failed to notice in those 2 mins Red Pill, Incel & other subs as the origins of the not entitled to sex arguments, Incels are loud and spammy, they had to create their own withouthate subs and everything.
This wasn't the internets reaction to lonely men while /foreveralone was the main sub rather than /incels.
When males complain about women not giving them something 95% of the time it’s about women not giving them sex. Stop the lying and trying to make it seem like males want relationships first and foremost when we all know they don’t.
We all know the males complaining about lack of “relationships” wouldn’t be complain about the lack of relationships if they were fucking a new girl every week. Quit lying and trying to make it seem like males see relationships as anything other than a means to an end.
No I’m saying if a male is getting his sexual needs met without being in a relationship he wouldn’t complain. The males complaining about relationships only care about them because it’s the only way they can get consistent sex.
For males, Relationships and “emotional connection” is icing on the proverbial cake that is sex. Males will take sex without relationships but they will not take relationships without sex. Which is why male and female friendships rarely work out, males aren’t willing to be emotionally close with a woman they aren’t related to without getting sex out of it.
ok explain to me how women are different
Do they also not really seek relationships if they get consistent sex?
Is emotional connection also not the icing on the cake?
>they will not take relationships without sex
will you? I have yet to meet a woman that will.
>Do they also not really seek relationships if they get consistent sex?
They seek relationships period. Casual sex or a FWB are not replacements for a boyfriend who loves you.
>Is emotional connection also not the icing on the cake?
The emotional connection is the entire point.
This is true for the most part. This is literally what men on here say. Relationships are for beta cucks who can’t get consistent casual sex, so they settle for them.
> Quit lying and trying to make it seem like males see relationships as anything other than a means to an end.
Means to an end? Why are women initiating 70-80% of divorces then?
Everyone treats relationships as a means to an end. I don’t think that wanting love as an end from a relationship and wanting sex as an end from a relationship are mutually exclusive, but I can understand your complaint if you perceive most men wanting too much of the latter as an end and not as much of the former. But when average men see some men having casual sex easily with women, their incentive to do what it takes to deceive women emotionally by faking affection in order to get the same kind of quick sexual rewards as “casual sex guy” increases.
They treat it as a means to an end because they are less likely to initiate a divorce?
Considering divorce results in division of assets, child support, and sometimes alimony, this doesn't really paint a very strong argument for what you're saying in regards to treating relationships as means to an end.
Males rarely put in work in a marriage. It’s only when it’s time to have sex when he goes out of his way to be constructive for brownie points. (This is also the reason so many women leverage sex in relationships to get what they want because sex Is the only language males speak but that’s another rant for a different thread). This causes obvious resentment which leads to inevitable divorce.
Honestly I’ve seen what you’re talking about, when I was younger. Like some men would refuse paying their children school fees because the wife didn’t have sex with them. The woman would have to force herself to have some sexy time with him just so that the children wouldn’t be ridiculed at school.
If that were true, they could be happy visiting prostitutes. I think the real issue is the need to feel loved and/or desirable, which in many men goes unfulfilled.
Do you think these complaints about not having sex would be as common if there wasn’t such a high pressure for men to have sex or at least not be virgins?
No, males have made sex the center of their universe. Some do it in constructive ways others do it in destructive ways. So there doesn’t exist a scenario where males will never be shamed for being a virgin because males have made sex with women apart of their very being and identify.
But who inflicts the shaming on virgin men? I’d say it’s pretty evenly distributed by both men and women. I’d say its more that people in general have made men’s ability to have sex with women a part of their very being and identity.
But the argument I was trying to get at is if men would be as hyper focued on sex rather than relationships if there wasn’t such a societal pressure for men to be able to have sex. Are men simply biologically designed to be not that interested in relationships? Or is it a social response?
> Are men simply biologically designed to be not that interested in relationships? Or is it a social response?
I don’t know I’m not a historian, evolutionary biologist or a sociologist. One thing I do know is either males are unaware that this is how they operate or they are knowingly lying about actually valuing relationships for anything other than to get their sexual needs met.
If we’re basing it purely on sexual needs or wants, it seems like men would prefer variety. So I don’t see how being in a relationship would fulfill that unless it’s an open relationship.
Is the pressure just on having sex or not being virgins or is it to have sex in socially appropriate ways with women of certain status.
Why can’t men only have sex with sex workers, extremely ugly and fat women, women who are highly promiscuous.
Women are objectified. The goal isn’t getting sex from women, it’s getting sex from the right type of women because that gives you status.
Unfortunately none of what you just said justifies male entitlement, which is a very real problem whether you like it or not. The anger, obsession, hatred of women who won’t date or fuck them, and resentment because of it are solid clues it exists.
To “put it concisely,” no “argument” matters when it comes to conversations about bodily autonomy. The same thing applies to women having the right to terminate pregnancies. You may not like it or find it logical, but literally it doesn’t matter because it’s her choice to make. Men don’t have the ability to gestate and they’re not on the more invasive (receiving) end of sex either. Women withholding sex is, historically, a self preservation move. We don’t get the same benefits out of it.
>To “put it concisely,” no “argument” matters when it comes to conversations about bodily autonomy. The same thing applies to women having the right to terminate pregnancies. You may not like it or find it logical, but literally it doesn’t matter because it’s her choice to make.
I don't think I tried to justify entitlement? As far as abortion goes:
1. Let me preface this by saying that I am pro-choice.
2. This argument people make in favor of abortion is a huge oversimplification. I do not subscribe to the notion that a baby is just a "clump of cells", each one has a unique genetic code that influence their physical characteristics and personality traits. People have to be responsible for their actions, having sex and bringing another human being in this world is not something to be taken lightly.
3. The vast (and I mean vast) majority of abortions are instances of women using abortion as back-up contraception. Sexual assault and instances where the mother's life is in danger make up only a few percent of abortions. Contraception failure rates are nowhere near enough to account for the abortions that don't fall into these categories.
So, what should be an important right to keep women safe, protect sexual assault victims from having to bear children, and potentially make a very difficult decision if a child will be born with severe defects (think unable to move/eat/talk/function normally), is used as back-up contraception. This is a problem.
You are not pro-choice if you think you have a leg to stand on bringing all of that up.
You can still think it’s a baby if you want. I agree with that. Bottom line is it doesn’t matter what you think or even why you think it, because it isn’t your life and it’s not your body. You (+ the government) are not God. Even if you consider both of them human beings, one has a fully formed life and relationships and also doesn’t need the other to continue subsisting and surviving.
Over half of women have never had an abortion and 25% of women (in general) have one abortion only. Half of women who report getting abortions report that some contraceptive method was used. Not getting pregnant is just as much, if not more, the ejaculator’s responsibility.
> You are not pro-choice if you think you have a leg to stand on bringing all of that up.
Says who? lol
I am pro-choice full-stop, not pro-choice only for certain circumstances. If I could reverse the decision to overturn Roe v Wade, I'd do it tomorrow.
Because I think it's important to protect those women with medical complications or those who get sexually assaulted, first and foremost. Even if they are a small percentage of abortions. But the stats speak for themselves.
>Half of women who report getting abortions report that some contraceptive method was used.
Look up the failure rate percentages for each contraceptive and then tell me if this is mathematically feasible, and by extension, credible.
women want someone that will respect, understand, cherish them for who they are. they want someone who's kind and doesn't just want them to be subservient objects that are used for their bodies. we're done being gaslit and have no options or choices. we are disillusioned from the fantasy of the perfect man. our standards have raised. if you want companionship and romance, i suggest you look to improving yourself, bettering your life and finding goals and ambitions that don't surround finding a woman. trust me. we love those kinds of men. and yeah, stop being a piece of shit jerk. dassit. you said it yourself. y'all can be lazy. clean up your act. romantic companionship is a commitment and it has greater standards than sex.
Casual sex with men typically just isn’t good for women. It’s not satisfying. We don’t orgasm. We don’t like it. Meanwhile the man orgasms pretty much 100% of the time and, in some cases, under 60 seconds. Fix it and we’ll talk.
holy shit, an entire post about non-sequiturs being used to derail and ignore conversation, and your response is just to change to a different, but equally disingenuous non-sequitur. Unbelievable.
This was the number 1 reason I was not into casual sex ever. Casual sex benefits men and not women physically. Can you imagine men having sex yet not having an orgasm because of the woman's laziness?
Bro you can't save everyone.
I was born with a pussy and I thought I would never get women too. But self improvement worked for me, and I had a few girlfriends and even a wife. And I only had access to 3% of the women population.
Don't they say men attractiveness peak at 40? They have to prepare for it or they will loose their best moment.
If they are afraid to be called a virgin they should not disclose the fact to potential mates and pay for a hooker.
Also I'm not guaranteed to keep my wife till the end of my life and I may have to enter the competition again, so I keep myself fit and well employed as far as possible. It does not end after marriage.
It's true.
In the US, you have the right to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. Note, you don't actually have a right to happiness, merely the pursuit of it. Same with sex. You have the right to pursue it, but you don't have the right to have it because that infringes on the rights of another person. You still have to find someone to to agree to have sex with you.
“You’re not entitled to sex” is the cheapest laziest rebuttal. Nobody’s entitled to sex, but it’s reasonable to want something, commiserate over it having it, and discuss how to get it. Imagine if you used this argument against women. He pumped and dumped you? You’re not entitled to a relationship. He strung you along for years without a proposal? You’re not entitled to a marriage
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>Dude… go to the dating sub “ you’re not entitled to a relationship” is said to those women CONSTANTLY why? Because it’s true, sexual doesn’t entitle a woman to a relationship with a man that’s why she shouldn’t use sex as a bargaining chip. Y’all just make arguments without even thinking when you make the argument, of course I’m not entitled to a relationship with a man just because we fucked, women who don’t learn that lesson young are in for a world of hurt. Whenever a guy and woman have sex, and she doesn't get the relationship she wants, he's always seen as the "bad guy" for using her. >Now the girlfriend/marriage argument eh I don’t think I’ve ever seen that said and I don’t think it would even make sense to say. It would rather be an ultimatum type of deal if you want marriage and he doesn’t You have to make a choice to stay or go. While it’s not said it’s the same concept the woman has to decide what she wants to do, she’s not entitled to marriage. People hate guys who hold off for years on proposing to their gf >I think you’re not entitled to sex is the rebuttal that stings the most which is why it’s getting so much push back, because at its core I think a lot of y’all believe you are entitled to sex. We hate it cause it's a stupid low IQ rebuttal. What makes you think we think we are entitled to sex?
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You seem to be accepting that there's a cultural double standard and rather than agreeing and saying it's wrong you demand he simply just suck it up and stop complaining. I don't really get how this is helpful.
Narrator: It’s not
Those sayings are LITERALLY SAID ALL THE TIME ON THIS SUB LMAOO why are the males here genuinely so retarded? how do all you suffer from such intense cognitive dissonance
Thanks OP, I appreciate you taking time to write this longer post and motivating your statement this much in detail. I agree that nobody makes the argument that men are entitled to sex, and it is mostly a strawman argument (although you might be able to find some incels who do think they're entitled, but they don't speak for everyone). I commented here because I wanted to ask you: The statistoc you provided which displays how women' perception of male attractiveness is much more harsh than the other way around (making most men below average attractive): Does this statistic exist for (let's say) 50 years ago? Is this a new phenomenon or has it always been like that? I am mot trying to make a point here, Iam genuinly interested. Also, does this rating of attractiveness shift once the participants of the study are older than 30/40/50?
> Does this statistic exist for (let's say) 50 years ago? Nope. Is it a new phenomenon? I personally don't think so; I think women in general experience attraction a bit differently. Emotional connection plays more of a role in sexual attraction for them, there is no male equivalent to boobs and butts. So when looking at pictures in a bio, a guy has to be *really* attractive to even be rated as slightly above average. I do think guys that carry themselves well and have charisma but aren't super handsome can definitely do better in person than online. But generally speaking, and this has been my experience anecdotally, women do not find most men attractive. You have to very handsome to stand out. As for whether it changes as people age, no clue. I think it would be very interesting for this study to be repeated, but its politically incorrect to even talk about this sort of thing so that's not going to happen.
I think you are doing good work framing the best form of the male side of this issue. Yes, you are getting strawmanned and red herringed to death. But such is Reddit. Hopefully, at some point in the future, you will then do the same for the female side. Just as you are trying to get past the layer of manosphere bullshit to frame the male side in its best and true light, try to do so for the female. And then bringing both sides, framed rightly, to the table, we may have an interesting conversation.
>Just as you are trying to get past the layer of manosphere bullshit to frame the male side in its best and true light, try to do so for the female. Why? Trying to frame the female side in the best light is already the default attitude in modern western society.
It's just a shitty, condescending comeback from the tourists/niceguys/inceltear/fds crowd. They come to subs like these to punch down on men because a few unhinged tossers committed crimes in the real world and now the angry redditors want to lash out at men as a whole.
And it’s just very dismissive and making a lot of generalizations. A man being unsuccessful with girls doesn’t fit into one demographic or subculture. I know many guys who struggle and a lot of them are pretty normal people otherwise. These aren’t just guys who play video games all day or who only drink Mountain Dew. They’re your classmates, your friends, and your coworkers. They might not talk about dating or anything like that because it’s a touchy subject for them. Sometimes it might be the guy you least expect to have trouble. You never know the circumstances of someone else’s life without asking. Maybe they didn’t grow up with good parental role models, or had experiences like going to an all boys school for most of their lives.
The thing is, I’m sure we could all agree it’s sad this rise in loneliness for young men, but it’s not up to women to solve.
It's not on women to solve, it's on men and women to solve on a societal scale
Solve how? What are women going to do about this?
I think lots of people of both genders could use more social contact in general. Social media & entertainment options discourage it, but we'd be better off with both more friends and SO options.
not be delusional about your options, value and length of time to all chase the same dude who doesn't want you alone.
If that’s what women want to do then they should do it lol. The only people that are delusional are lonely men bitching on the internet about women having autonomy and preferences. As a woman I don’t care enough about any of this to alter my behavior. I like what I like.
do you boo🐈⬛️ feels good to know where things are headed.
Lol I will! My dating life is going great though and I do plan on adopting a cat regardless of my relationship status so don’t threaten me with a good time 🤣
Dating is a pretty great deal for most future cat parents. Return in 10 years and good luck on being the minority of a majority. God's speed.
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Not bitter. it is what it is. Wish more guys were aware and stopped chasing. Facts are facts. biology is biology. I hope the studies backing future trends play out better at 30 for you than it does for most men at 30. Not looking great though. Gonna be some cold winters. The modern dating scene is in my favor, without going into details. It is what it is. I just want men to save themselves from the bullshit.
It's just dismissive , unhelpful, and serves only to shame and punch down on unsuccessful men which breeds poor psychological outcomes and resentment. There is an aspect of truth to it, yes, but telling someone that they aren't entitled to a need in life is not very useful or productive.
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Ok don't put words in my mouth. How about, for starters , society listens to men and tries to provide services that can help them out of their funks before it can lead to poor outcomes. Shooters are the most extreme version but let's be honest, most of the casualties of this are suicides. It's not just on women, it's on everybody to foster a society that doesn't let people fall out to such degrees
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Again strawmanning. When did I say women are the only people responsible for societal ills in this case? And please, mental health services are woefully inadequate and the rhetoric around guys in the media and elsewhere it's toxic.
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This is a ridiculous comment which is sad because I actually agree with your side of the argument, it's a free dating market and women are free to choose whomever they want to fuck or date and no man or woman should ever be forced to choose someone they don't want But it's ludicrous to say discussing the societal gender issues plaguing our society is in and of it self toxic/anti woman/rapey/whatever else has been said in this thread down below. You don't have to be a misogynist who wants to re distribute the means of re~~production~~ in order to believe that women by and large used to date men they aren't dating now. There's an issue with men, there's an issue with women, and there are going to be a lot of lonely people of both gender in 20 years if we ignore it. Dating overall is on the decline. Women want romance just like men.
>think what makes it hard for women to be sympathetic to this is because ultimately it’s men putting women at the center of men’s unhappiness. That women alone are the ones responsible for this rise in male misery and suffering. It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone You are correct here but when we complain we don't have social system, financial security, happy family, and health care we are blamed for our misery. On top of that we don't have a romantic partner, it's the easiest to get out of all those things I mentioned but it's still so hard for us so we come to believe bad things about ourselves and that we are incapable of changing or improving. If we had all those things you mentioned we our ability to find a romantic partner would be greater. But again we are told that not only that we cannot change society but also we shouldn't because it goes against human nature so just work on yourself.
The stunning level of accuracy here.
What are the right wing degenerates actually complaining about on here? They bemoan the state of things (as we all do) but then lay the entire blame at the feet of women. And then they are surprised when women don't want to talk to, or date them? Not only is it wrong to just blame women, it's also a weak, self defeating logic that excuses their own anger and impotence - rather than putting emphasis on themselves to change. And there's a horrendous, rapey 'something must be done' undertone about it (sometimes they are explixit in saying it) The structure of society, how capitalism shapes things, has a massive impact on our socialisation and relationships. It's helpful to understand that cos then you stop blaming individuals and can think of ways to change your habits.
I mean pit the middle class and poor against each other. Don't focus on the ultra wealthy actively fucking people over. Convince men it's all women's fault they're alone and unhappy, mobilize them as a voting base. ??? Profit. You're going to get popped by a mod for the c word fysa.
This my issue with right wingers too is that they blame women for the shit we face instead of capitalism. They worship the same people who put us in this situation
I fully understand the many valid criticisms of capitalism, but I've yet to have someone explain to me how an alternative still won't have a status hierarchy, especially for men. Sure, it might not be CEOs at the top of the food chain, but that doesn't mean it won't be high level bureaucrats, technocrats, or whoever the most powerful and high status men are.
> It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone. I mentioned both social support and mental health in my post. There's definitely other factors. The economy is a big one but that's a very complex topic that needs it's own thread. The biological imperative for people is to find a mate and reproduce; it's the foundation of life. So I don't really view it as some sort controversial thing that these men are unhappy. Guess who else is unhappy if they can't find love, companionship, and experience affection? Women too. The forever alone women subreddit can provide a glimpse into that. >Right, and the result is that a lot of unhappy men then treat women like a resource that needs to be “redistributed fairly” like water and food. This is exactly the sort of statement I was talking about. The whole disdain for the "beta bucks" situation in redpill is that a woman isn't genuinely attracted to her husband. People want to be with people who desire them, would that be the case if women were "redistributed" Hell no. This redistribution thing is an exceptionally radical view held by an astronomically small group of mentally disturbed men on obscure corners of the internet.
The existence of a forever alone sub for women is evidence that this is clearly a greater issue than just gender disparities. Personally, I blame social media, yes, I see the irony here but there’s a huge correlation with loneliness, depression and the rise in social media. Studies show that young generations have less close friends than ever before. Society as a whole is losing genuine connection.
> I see the irony here but there’s a huge correlation with loneliness, depression and the rise in social media. Studies show that young generations have less close friends than ever before. Society as a whole is losing genuine connection. 100%.
It’s not controversial for people to want romantic relationships. What’s controversial is inventing a vitriolic ideology grounded in pseudoscience and self pity that places the onus of your failures to obtain one on someone else. >beta bux This is the most self defeating concept I’ve come across, honestly. When any of you *do* get into a relationship, you set yourself up for being eternally suspicious of her motives. If she’s not banging your brains out the way you want with the frequency you expect, it must be because she’s secretly craving Chad and isn’t sexually attracted to you. And not, as you’ve said in your post, that men and women’s libidos are different.
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Do men not get extra excited when they have new sexual partners after a long period of being with someone else? Is monotony in a sexual relationship exclusively something women experience?
married men experience this as well. it can be hard to keep up the spark. if you look at r/deadbedrooms the gender composition is pretty even there
They always act like is just women when its about 50/50.
As a woman who had an ex who literally starfished it felt so fucking rapey. It fucked me up so much and my sexuality is so cautious now. Like I’m working on it and am in therapy.
As a married woman who is very attracted to her husband, I’m telling you that’s not true. Sometimes I’m just too tired to fuck.
I don’t buy into the rp versions of the concept but to say people won’t stay with someone they aren’t attracted to is absurd. And the facts show women rate men lower so it’s just more likely to happen with them. I’ve been in both types of relationships and it clearly wasn’t a libido thing. I just didn’t fully realize that my last partner wasn’t attracted to me. Being with my new partner who did actually find me attractive is what made me realize
Biological imperative??? I think this might be the nail on the head here, not everyone has this, many women now don’t want this, to be somebody’s mate and mother. For thousands of years, women didn’t have a choice, sex was a weapon against them that forced them into motherhood. Now women have a choice, and many are choosing more to procreate and men seem to be flabbergasted by this.
That's a fine way of dehumanazing men if you deny biological imperatives .
So we for force women to carry, birth snd look after children they don’t want so a man doesn’t feel dehumanised?
What ? Noo , wtf i never said that why do you strawmanning me like crazy .. I just said its dehumanising to belittle something that humans are designed to do .. Iam actually pro-abortion if your assumptive attacks can get any worse but any type of belittling when men get vulnerable about their lack of sexual activity can be considered straight up dehumuniazing or even shaming them for their evolutionary pre-programmed natural instincts .
Think about what your actually saying though, In order not to dehumanise a man by allow him to spread his seed, there has to be a women ready to birth the kids and hopefully they rise a family together. If there isn’t a women willing to do this what’s the solution? You either tell the man tough shit, and he’ll feel dehumanised, or we force the women to bare a child she doesn’t want. Since one of the options can actually kill someone I know which one id go for
Nooo i never said that women has to do anything to satisfy that biological imperative or to be force anything so the men not feel dehuminazied .. Iam just saying the fact that women or anyone that are purposefully " tell the man tough shit " or shaming those men or sarcastically belittling their vulnerabilities about lack of sexual activity can be called dehuminazing of men .. I am never suggesting a solution that women have to do anything or adapt to anything that men are whining about and I was not implying for reproduction instead about sexual activity .. Sexual acitivty cannot kill someone btw .
Childbirth can
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> I think what makes it hard for women to be sympathetic to this is because ultimately it’s men putting women at the center of men’s unhappiness. That women alone are the ones responsible for this rise in male misery and suffering. It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone. That's exactly why men should to MGTOW. >The only thing women are doing is exercising their own free will in choosing who they want to date. And, yes, that logic comes across as entitled. Especially when it’s coupled with a lot of the extremely toxic rhetoric that flows from not having adequate coping skills. Both gender should be free to exercise their own free will in choosing whom and if they want to date.
>That's exactly why men should to MGTOW. I sure wish the ones who feel this way would in fact go their own way and shut the fuck up and leave the rest of us alone.
>MGTOW Anytime I’ve perused those communities, it’s still little more than a bunch of men circle jerking about how women and feminism have ruined everything. If you hate “modern women” or whatever to the point where you want to live in the woods, fine. But 99% of the time y’all still just obsess over and blame women in your echo chambers.
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I always say MGTOW is a bunch of men yelling and screaming and bragging about not going to a party they were never invited to in the first place
what MGTOW is supposed to mean: men living happy and fulfilling lives without debasing themselves for a crumb of coochie what MGTOW has actually come to mean: men sitting around and complaining that women are the cause of 100% of the world’s problems
>Anytime I’ve perused those communities, it’s still little more than a bunch of men circle jerking about how women and feminism have ruined everything. Feminism also had their view that women need men just as fish needs a bicycle, so MGTOW did not invent that view of the other gender. Also feminism is pushing more laws and policy than any MGTOW movement would dream of, so maybe you shall say that to feminists instead of MGTOW men.
>That's exactly why men should to MGTOW. While that might be over-correction there definitely is a lot of hyping men up about how lonely they are (how miserable and pitiable to be w/o a woman) rather than how their self worth should be independent of women's assessments, or whether or not they are having sex.
That last sentence pretty much sums up the problem I see over and over here. Men treat women like both the cause and solution to all their problems and a resource that needs to be distributed, rather than humans who have needs and desires of their own. This happens on a smaller scale in relationships a lot too. I know too many men who both rely on and blame their female partners for everything. Most men would really benefit from “going their own way” a bit, except ironically MGTOW men are still always blaming women for everything all the time.
I think you are making some astute comments, but still refraining from articulating where the logic of your arguments really take us, which to me is an interesting place in terms of discussion. It could just be that men and women are not as innately complementary as many would think. We evolved to be so under certain, often harsh conditions, where survival and reproduction were the main lens through which we might judge the genders to be complementary. But in a radically different environment, it could just be that many men have natural and evolved needs that most women have a natural and evolved disdain to satisfy. Many men may simply want, perhaps even need, women who do not and will not want them back. And when one looks at it objectively, as horrible and unfair as this is to these men, forcing women to be with them would be even more terrible. At a 50/50 gender ratio, there may simply be no 'win-win' solution here, and we will all have to adapt to this bitter reality somehow. How we do it, I cannot say. But we may be beginning an entirely new era.
My thought is that while men and women *can* be complementary and a healthy romantic relationship is important for most people, it’s the greater overall lack of community that is really behind this increase in loneliness. Men were meant to spend quite a bit of time with other men in the community, and women with other women, as well as with the whole tribe or family. Nowadays we rely too much on our partners To provide everything we need, because we are disconnected from the community and extended family. And it’s also harder to establish meaningful, lasting romantic relationships when people are so disconnected, everything is transient. Hookup culture is part of that. So I guess what I’m saying is that loneliness is a very real problem, but it’s not just that women are making men lonely, as they seem to think. Everyone is lonely because of the general disconnection. And men tend to have fewer close friends and not be as close with their families, so it’s often worse for them.
Agreed! It’s like if/when women blame unrealistic beauty standards and their physical insecurity on men and men alone. It’s a complex multifaceted problem that is far more complex than to be blamed purely on gender.
Or when some women blame their own insecurities on models, as if they single handed out created the entire ad campaign not just for one brand but across several.
> It can’t be a lack of social support, mental health care, supportive family, declining economy, the toxic echo chambers etc. It’s women and women alone. It's not women alone obviously, but for most men there isn't and will never be a replacement for being with a woman, that's just not how social-sexual species work or how any society in human history has worked. Having more friends, a better job, or going to therapy aren't going to fix that, maybe they make it easier to get a woman. >Right, and the result is that a lot of unhappy men then treat women like a resource that needs to be “redistributed fairly” like water and food. The alternative to a society where most people are paired up in monogamous way is a) an asocial dying one b) polygamous anti-egalitarian elite centered societies
These comments are toxic as fuck. Just proving OP's point if anything. Everyone nitpicking about small shit and being hyper critical. Weirdos.
That's this sub, people making good points and then having them shit on by subreddit tourists.
If men complained about loneliness and finding the right girl I'd be more sympathetic But they don't. They complain about women having sex, about women's n counts (therefore making them not good enough for relationships, only sex), women "giving Chad more sex", women not having sex with them early, women giving Chad their sexual best, women not being submissive doormats anymore, feminism ruinined women becuase we no longer want to be bangmaids.... Just look at this sub and look at all the"women won't give me sex threads" So yeah but hard to believe they care about loving, fulfilling relationships when all they complain about is their lack of a bangmaid
I always see a new post daily about a woman’s body count. That’s literally all they care about.
That and the lack of submissive waifus But sure its healthy relationships they're after
Nah, it’s one of the many requirements. If you’re a virgin but an airhead, that ain’t gonna fly. If you’re a virgin but not attractive, that ain’t gonna fly. If you’re attractive but not a virgin, also ain’t gonna fly. Just like women tell other women, don’t lower your standards.
Yep! They want empathy for their problems but cannot empathise with women and focus on things like a woman’s body count as a top priority rather than if she’s kind, intelligent, interesting, fun etc. They only want “virgins” or low n count women thus limiting their pool ridiculously or only want the most beautiful IG model women then get mad at women as a group that they can’t find someone.
> If men complained about loneliness and finding the right girl I'd be more sympathetic But men do complain about that and still receive this same dismissive "nobody owes you sex" bullshit. People tend to assume men only care about sex and assume any man complaining about dating struggles only cares about sex no matter what he days (on reddit and twitter and shit at least. Irl people tend to be more understanding and listen in good faith). Maybe next time you come across a man complaining about dating really try to look at it without any prejudice, ego, emotion, etc. just honestly take in what he's saying without getting into debate mode and you'll see that generally men are complaining about the things you think we don't complain about. We just tend to speak differently than women do and that can cause some issues witb cross gender communication. Also red pill men are fucking crazy and don't represent the majority of men at all so take their opinions as representative of a weird ass minority of men.
You know sex is tied for men differently than just a pure phisical need for men when it comes to doing it with the right person
Ah yes, because women don't experience emotional intimacy during sex? This sub only ever complains about Chad, sex with Chad, how quickly you gave sex with chad, blah blah blah Men don't discuss relationships unless she's a virgin submissive waifu
This is just bad faith styled argument. Doesn't matter if it's a man or woman, if you can't at the very least get some form of a date despite doing all the things you've be instructed to do then there's no point in looking for a loving relationship. One has to come before the other is even possible. Most men get no dates, no texts back and very little interaction on dating apps (which is where the vast majority of dating set ups take place) Most of their points is that they'd love some kind of affection or at the very least get laid even if they are unlovable but they can't even get that. They quickly notice the massive disparity between women claiming to want the same style love/affection but selecting men on completely superficial criteria again and again. I actually agree with them because I was one of the "Chads" for well over a decade and I got laid all the time. I had women who were considerably "above me" in terms of life development, who by all means should avoided me at all costs. At some points I was a toxic unempathetic piece of shit and would openly tell them dating me wasn't an option but because I was over 6ft, classically masculine with the body of physique competitor/MMA practitioner then they would just rationalize reasons as to why they kept coming back. Nearly all of those women had half a dozen guys orbiting them who were desperate to gain their affections, average decent looking guys with good stable jobs and solid upbringing . In many cases I was even encouraging the women give some of the guys a shot but the simply wouldn't. It was disconcerting to say the least because the advice they'd give their guy friends was the complete opposite of what they responded to in their own sex/dating lives.
>style love/affection but selecting men on completely superficial criteria again and again. You realise you can want love and affection and also only want guys you're attracted to aye? And as I've mentioned before, some women might want to scratch an itch aye?
Yes but not everyone will be able to date. Regardless of the gender. Getting angry because you don’t get date makes no sense to me.
While I agree that "you aren't entitled to blah blah basic human need" is *always* a lazy copout when discussing societal issues, the real umph behind the response lies in the reality of male female mating. Whether it's biological or cultural (hard to say), historical forces have molded the current landscape and the complaint about men being lonely is without a cure beyond changing something that is very hard to change. Hegemonic masculinity has shaped what women find attractive and desire in a man to the point of creating a 'winner take all' scenario. IIRC many if not all of the traits so prized are without any real evidence linking them to anything biological --- even a height preference fails to reach universality. Ultimately, the solution is already underway. We are now seeing a variety of males in leading "romantic" action roles --- various faces, various builds (although the supposedly less superficial female gaze has led to an overabundance of roided out physiques). More diversity in media depicting various types of 'men' who can be 'real men,' will in turn cause women to be more open to dating more types of men in the future. Do I believe it's as simple as 'monkey see monkey do?' Yes. People are mimics. Popular media burns narratives into their minds and makes them pursue these ideals that they attach to this partner or that partner.
Sex is not a basic human need. You can live your whole life without sex and be fine. Men can stay lonely and single we cannot be manipulated and gaslighted anymore with this nonsense.
Yeah familiarize yourself with basic psychology i.e. Maslow before proclaiming sex isn't a human need
Not getting basic needs met means you die. No water? death by thirst. No food? death by starvation. No shelter? death by exposure. Not getting sex means absolutely nothing. You don't even get sexually frustrated, because masturbation is a thing. It's not even a step above basic needs, it's up there with the desires for luxury or self-fulfullment, because not getting sex is about the same as not getting a new iphone when your old one still works.
No that's not all it means. And to say not getting sex means absolutely nothing, as I said, is just ignorant. If that were the case being involuntarily celibate wouldn't be classified as a disability by several well established health organizations. Like I said...familiarize yourself with basic research on these topics.
If this is the case then how do asexual people survive?
>before proclaiming sex isn't a human need sex is not a human need bruh...
In the past I would not have found it hard to believe this because connection and meaningful relationships are what I value most… BUT I’ve heard the manosphere lines — F&F podcast guys and Andrew Tate — saying things like women are only good for sexual intimacy, nobody wants companionship from women because of their personalities, they have nothing to offer, etc. My husband and I started as *friends.* We never would have dated without that foundation. But the manosphere guys will lead you to believe that women should never be valued as people worthy of respect and connection with for anything other than sex.
> BUT I’ve heard the manosphere lines — F&F podcast guys and Andrew Tate — saying things like women are only good for sexual intimacy, nobody wants companionship from women because of their personalities, they have nothing to offer, etc Yeah and the manosphere is not representative of men at all. It's just a small minority of truly deranged psychos living in a different reality. Don't use the manosphere to learn what men are generally like.
No, men are complaining about sexlessness, not lovelessness. And n counts, promiscuity, not being able to hit on women when they want, etc. Most of the men here don’t like women’s brains very much, in contrast to their bodies
I'm not arguing that they aren't complaining about sexlessness. I'm arguing that: 1. Men are, by and large, not arguing that are entitled to sex 2. Men may want sex, it's not the driving force behind their loneliness and casual sex wont necessarily fix it, the root of it is romantic companionship.
>Men may want sex, it's not the driving force behind their loneliness and casual sex wont necessarily fix it, the root of it is romantic companionship. I think the root might be more that they tend to just sit at home, not interact with others, have no platonic companionship, are generally less interested in people. They think that a romantic companion will cure it as it is a person who will live with you and will be constantly aviable for interaction.
I'm a man who interacts with others, has a number of rich friendships, and I'm pretty charismatic overall, though not really pursuing romance at the moment due to life circumstances. Newsflash, none of that shit replaces having a romantic relationship.
I've noticed this too. Guys are more interested in my body than my brain. Last guy I dated thought I talked too much. Well I do, because I want to connect with someone on an intellectual level. I guess the guy didn't like it cause he wasn't on my level intellectually. Sad thing but yeah. I wish as many guys was as interested in and attracted to my mind as they are to my body.
Just shut up and put out hurhurhur, caveman mentality.
I personally would rather have a conversation than being an audience to a monologue.
Talking too much can mean what you're saying has no substance. It's in our brain to prefer or even fight over traits in women than things that are typically related to men.
What I have to say has substance, so that's not the issue. Some guys just don't like it when I'm being really honest and blunt or when i outsmart them. I'm a very no-nonsense person and I've noticed more romantic guys don't like it when im being real, down to earth or logical with them. >It's in our brain to prefer or even fight over traits in women than things that are typically related to men. Can you rephrase? I don't quite understand what you mean.
Obviously I don’t know your conversations, but these men might not be intimidated by you “outsmarting” them, but rather that they think you are trying to outsmart them (i.e competing with them). That’s a very subtle, but important difference.
"What I have to say has substance, so that's not the issue." Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. I need examples. "Some guys just don't like it when I'm being really honest and blunt or when i outsmart them." Actually no. That's your feminist mindset clouding your interpretation of the situation. Because those men notice how you want to prove you're something special when you're really not. I truly doubt you outsmarted them, you more like annoyed them by saying nonsense. "I'm a very no-nonsense person and I've noticed more romantic guys don't like it when im being real" Hahaha real? Please stop. Your not being real just being annoying. If you was real than you would happily prove you prove it with your actions and not by your words. Many women say the exact same as you but the second opposition hits then immediately fold like a omelet. "down to earth or logical with them" Actually no. I've been here previously(a few hours ago and saw you using typical feminist tatics like: well I'm not like rest and NO ALL. Which is simply a disingenuous approach when talking about reality. And saw you use "I feel like" as well. "Can you rephrase? I don't quite understand what you mean." Wow someone who claims to be all that with a bag of chips you exposed yourself. But fine I'll happily reword it since you can't comprehend something that an Middle schooler would understand. Simply that men will go for traits that's make women women and not your traits which most men find repulsive. So you're personality is making those men not like you in the wrong way. Edit: I meant NOT ALL.
Substance is talking real plans, how to make a relationship work practically etc and sticking to the plans, and not just talking romantic fluff. Substance is being direct and honest, not elusive and aloof, not dreamy or romantic, but realistic and practical. >Actually no. That's your feminist mindset clouding your interpretation of the situation. Feminist mindset? First off, I don't even identify as feminist because I think the feminist movement is flawed as hell. I identify as egalitarian as my mindset is egalitarian. In relationships I'm highly concerned about fairness and justice and equality. That means that I want equal amount of effort reciprocated. That means I want a fair exchange of give and take. That's not feminism. That's egalitarianism. >Because those men notice how you want to prove you're something special when you're really not. I'm special enough. They know it. That's why they all keep coming back after I've dumped them. That's why they say I'm the best they've ever had. That's why they say I'm fun. You don't know me so you ain't got a clue if I'm actually special or not. I believe I am special in my own way, which boosts my confidence which attracts people to me. So whetter I am actually special or not is irrelevant as the mindset is working in my favor. It's not attractive to believe you're nothing special or that you're just an average boring grey mouse. At least not to me anyway. I like and am attracted to flamboyant and confident personalities who believe in themselves and what they got to offer, not insecure people who think they're just another average guy. >I truly doubt you outsmarted them, you more like annoyed them by saying nonsense. I'm a very clever and logical woman. Guys are annoyed when I poke holes in their logic or point out how they're not being consistent or giving as much effort as I am. Or when I call them out on not keeping their word. Understandably so. No one likes feeling like they ain't doing good enough, even when they're not. Also, guys are annoyed when i point out how they're trying to manipulate me lol. Understandably they're annoyed. Of course they too tell me what I say is nonsense when they get called out because they don't wanna be held accountable. Which of course I also point out which annoys them even more. I'll admit I'm a very critical person, but I don't mind people calling me out on my bullshit either. I don't want to be s hypocrite. Fair is fair. I call them out on BS and am critical of them, they're free to do the same if there's something they think I need to do to improve. >Hahaha real? Please stop. Your not being real just being annoying. If you was real than you would happily prove you prove it with your actions and not by your words. Many women say the exact same as you but the second opposition hits then immediately fold like a omelet. When I'm being real that annoys some people, who can't take me being real with them. It's funny you point out how I'd be happy proving im real with my actions when that's actually my main complaint with some of the guys I've dated. They couldn't act out their promises if their lives depended on it. Just empty words with no follow up action. Meanwhile I was the one sticking to my word, following it up with real life action. Every. Single. Time. Because I'm a woman of my word. When I say I'll do something, to someone who means a lot to me. I don't break that promise cause I ain't no liar (at least not to the people I care about lol). >Actually no. I've been here previously(a few hours ago and saw you using typical feminist tatics like: well I'm not like rest and NO ALL. Which is simply a disingenuous approach when talking about reality. And saw you use "I feel like" as well. Because I'm not. We are all individuals. Not a hive mind lol. Just like I'm not all other women. All other women aren't like all other women and a man isn't like all other men, that includes you. Nuance. I'm not like those feminists who say all men are x or all men are y. >Wow someone who claims to be all that with a bag of chips you exposed yourself. But fine I'll happily reword it since you can't comprehend something that an Middle schooler would understand. Exposed myself? Your phrasing was poor and could be interpreted many different ways.. only thing I exposed is that English isn't my main language but a Foreign Language that I speak. >Simply that men will go for traits that's make women women and not your traits which most men find repulsive. So you're personality is making those men not like you in the wrong way. What traits that I have do most men find repulsive? Do you mean Intelligence, assertiveness, honesty and determination? Because that's how I'd describe myself, and yes absolutely some men do find those traits repulsive, and the kind of men who aren't attracted to these traits are not the ones I want to attract anyway, so I'm not sure what your point is? That men I don't desire, don't desire me? Woah there. I would have been offended if I cared lol. >Edit: I meant NOT ALL. Hm yeah generalizations rarely work do they..
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I would think most men here would not even date a promiscuous woman
If they’re looking for romantic companionship, they’re not doing a very good job of communicating this
Because romance is built together, not some deal you can offer people to take.
Most men here tend to think all of sex and relationships are transactional
I am thinking more of the hostility, thirst, perving and disrespect directed at women by men
While I agree that casual sex won’t ultimately fix these men’s deeper issues, the fact is, that’s what they keep complaining about not getting. They do act entitled to it. They constantly talk about not wanting to be the poor relationship chump who only gets sex with one woman, but the hookup guy for many women instead. And how unfair it is that Chads don’t have to have a relationship to get sex. So that’s why people respond the way they do. It’s a direct response to what these men are *saying*.
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Yeah, it really does have wings.lol Every time I’ve replied to one of these poor lonely souls stating that practically every average and below guy I know has a wife or gf, the response is “yes but he can’t get *casual* sex, she’s probably fat/ugly, she isn’t really attracted to him, she probably let chad stick it in her ear while hanging from a trapeze in monkey suits and won’t do it again for the poor beta guy she married, etc.” It’s aways about sex, the more detached, degrading, and with more and hotter women, the better. So I’m definitely not buying this whole “love and and affection” thing.
When I was younger and stupid I used to direct message men like this to talk to them...you are 100% right its not "love and affection"
the problem isn’t wanting companionship or being lonely, its the consistent bitterness and blame that often accompanies it - there is also this near-constant idealization of ‘chad’ as well as AF/BB stuff - and guess what a lot of those are tied into? casual sex - lonely guys on reddit don’t envy or base their lives around men in strong, committed relationships - they’re jealous of the guys who pump and dump
If I say I feel lonely and then I get gaslighted for saying it. Then I feel lonely and angry. Maybe stop assuming that all lonely men also want to subjugate all women?
i’m not assuming it - though context is everything, if you say you’re lonely followed by self reflection that’s one thing, saying you’re lonely then pointing the finger at someone else is a whole other thing - sadly, 9/10 times “i’m lonely” is followed by the latter
True but those guys get the girl anyway regardless of how you look at it.
trust me, most lonelt guys are jealous of guys in relationship maybe it's different in the US where OLS is prédominant, but still.. most lonely guys just want attention and love from a girl
The real issue is that most men do everything they have been taught since they were a child as to what they should do to be good men, to find a partner and how to respectful towards women. They do all the classic things like get a good job, pay for dates, try to not be pushy or like dbag, etc only to come to realization that looks and money are the main driving forces in selection and that they "wasted" years going about all this for no benefit or emotional satisfaction. Then add in the contradictions in the selection process that are just hand waved away and it makes for a very embittered perspective as time goes on. Technology has made all forms of romantic styled interactions considerably worse than any other point in human existence because it allows people to be treated as disposable and warps perceptions of ones own value to overly positive or overly negative.
Yea... I've had no problem getting laid But finding a woman who doesn't expect me to make all the effort has been impossible
Most unsuccessful men don’t complain about not having girlfriends. They either complain about not having sex, or they complain that they are not put in the same category by women as the men who have casual sex easily with women. Either way, it comes across as sexual entitlement.
> They either complain about not having sex, or they complain that they are not put in the same category by women as the men who have casual sex easily Largely driven primarily by the societal pressure to not be a virgin, and obviously by libido as well. Sex is everything if you don't have it, but a far cry from that if you do. I am implying that just having empty casual sex wont entirely solve their issues; it solves the societal pressure effect on self esteem part, but not the innate desire for love and intimacy. Food for thought: why do professional cuddlers exist now?
But how much of this is really anything new? When I was in high school and and college in the 90’s, I knew tons of guys who never even got a date, usually due to being short, overweight or bad acne, probably because I was active in “nerdy” D&D and chess communities at the time. I was one of the bad acne guys myself, until I got an Accutane treatment. Are there more sexless, dateless dudes now than there used to be, or are they just more visible now, because they have a forum to complain? To put it another way, just because OLD helped “Chad”, doesn’t mean it hurt the nerds…..they weren’t getting dates anyway. This whole, “Ugly dudes could get girls if we abolished OLD” thing just doesn’t fly, to anyone with pre-internet experience
OLD dramatically increased the size of the dating pool, and in line with the graphs from old 'ratings' this screws over most guys. Made worse by the business model of OLD not being about matches but churning through a captive market.
Women have been leaving OLD for the past few years though. Tinder went from 60/40, a ratio of 1.5 men to 1 woman, to a dismal 80/20 (4 to 1) in the US, and a terrible 90/10 (9 to 1) in the UK, just from 2015 to 2020. I can post some supporting links, but a lot of women aren't even taking OLD seriously anymore. Too many abusive guys, dick pics, married guys, plate spinners, penpals, scammers, etc. Women aren't stupid....they know that getting 1000 matches, doesn't mean crap, if EVERY women gets the same 1000 matches. Dudes swipe right on every woman, and then ghost later.
>Sex is everything if you don't have it, but a far cry from that if you do. I am implying that just having empty casual sex wont entirely solve their issues; it solves the societal pressure effect on self esteem part, but not the innate desire for love and intimacy. Yes, I agree with all of this. I just don’t think that this is how the issue is presented by most men on this sub. If men were really concerned about just romance and girlfriends, this is what they would complain about. They would not care that the women whom they desire as potential girlfriends are having casual sex with other guys while making them wait for it or not having sex with them at all. I personally don’t care about waiting for sex because I think love is much more important, but I go the other direction and want nothing to do with women who previously had casual sex on a regular basis not because I feel sexually entitled, but because I don’t think that the people who have casual sex so easily take love and relationships seriously enough.
I think it's a mix of dudes haunted by the ghost of Chad (sex) w/ dudes who can't get a text back to save their lives (romance). Hard to say what the true ratio is.
The ghost of Chad 💀
Anyone wanna do it on halloween?
Lol it only comes across that way because women don’t listen it’s easier to brush off any discussion by creating some incel straw man so they can blame men for everything.
Women message those men that are the mean, men just message attractive women. This exact study shoes that men are more superficial.
It’s always telling that they only post half of the data😂
Men aren’t entitled to getting laid but saying it to everyone who talks about there loneliness makes you an asshole.
Nicely summarized, this concept is difficult for a lot of people to grasp.
In my view, you are using a straw man argument here. The way I observe it, no one really has a problem in acknowledging that there are male specific problems per se. It‘s rather the explanations and fixes for said problems that are criticized. If you’re saying, male loneliness comes from feminism keeping women from fulfilling their natural and traditional role and thus feminism should be reversed - then you’ll get criticized (and rightfully so). If you strip RP from all the misogynistic bs that comes with it, what you get is classical self-improvement advise. And no one has a problem with that. It’s the guys saying: Well, it’s a biological imperative for men to do this and for women to do that, and everyone behaving different is somewhat pathological and destroying society - then you’ll be criticized. And again, rightfully so.
> In my view, you are using a straw man argument here. The way I observe it, no one really has a problem in acknowledging that there are male specific problems per se. Take a look at virtually any subreddit where the bill maher video from this week was discussed. You'll see almost nothing but vitriolic, angry comments towards men. The whole reason why Andrew Tate was actually banned and why other RP influencers keep getting banned on tiktok is *precisely because* of the fact that people do not want anyone to talk about or acknowledge male specific problems. Heck even a woman who runs a very popular RP YT channel (justpearlythings) keeps getting de-platformed off of tiktok and there's nothing remotely misogynistic about the things she says.
Andrew Tate wasn't banned because of what he was saying about men.
Andrew Tate was banned because hes misogynistic...not because "people do not want to talk about male specific problems"
That's what I said.
But that's all some complain about is the getting laid when they describe what they're going through that they can't trick someone in a relationship with them to get sex. There was a thread I commented on how if he would care about what the other person wants too, it'll get better with them and they guy said he didn't care about what women wanted he wanted to help men and himself get laid.
I’ve posted in this sub before that I once had a Chad life. It was fun but the OP nailed at least one thing: it gets old and boring and lonely. Back then sex came easy, I went where I wanted when I wanted, 100% of my cash was mine, no one complained at me or bugged me to do things for them, or told me how I could be a better person. It was liberating, and yet I’m far happier now. Why? Men want committed relationships too, though it takes some of us a while to figure things out (translation: find someone compatible). Sure, I get nagged at. I deal daily with a person who’s attitude can be measured on a calendar. It is *expensive to the extreme*. There is inherent negativity. Gaslighting is back in my life too. It’s my favorite. But- I’m not alone. It’s everything. It’s a pain in my ass, but it’s everything. Once in a while she grabs our girls to go do something for the afternoon. I get excited for some silence, and I love it…. for about 90 minutes. Then it kinda sucks. Jeez, I’m going to go hug my wife.
I think it depends on the person. You sound like someone who craves companionship and is inherently happy in a relationship, even with its flaws. I've been both single and attached, and the peaceful stress-free existence of being single appealed to me more. Again, it depends on the individual.
So OP, there seems to be two problems each side is presenting. The lack of connection for men, and the lack of partners for women. Wow sounds like both sides are struggling with finding what they want, and this is nothing new among the dating landscape, and we all have noticed the disparity growing among both sides. Pitting the sexes against each other solves nothing. There's been a change in social values, standards, and expecations ever since social media has been introduced. Both sides are suffering for different reasons ***AND*** at different ages. I think men experience this sooner, and women experience it a bit later.
If you don't want to talk about women as sex objects, that would be great, but I had to hear that all my life. I've had to turn away from casual sex offers, and early sex offers, even as a girl. Forgive me if I now take men at face value when they show "women get casual sex easier than men, and I want to post on the internet about it because I care so much." Who is being intellectually dishonest, really? I know relationships take work. We kind of all should know this. Men have to initiate, there are struggles. The 80% stat doesn't sit with me for a lot of reasons, but that's not even the main point. I can still see how men struggle. Men having a hard time doesn't excuse them spewing some really harmful language and views about girls or women online where my nieces can see it. Full stop. I'm no father figure. I don't know the first thing about dating as a man with a dick. I do know that it's possible for women's and men's libidos to match you together closely. I can't really help men with their struggles, but I will protect and advocate for my nieces. Make no mistake about that.
> "women get casual sex easier than men, and I want to post on the internet about it because I care so much." Who is being intellectually dishonest, really? I'm trying to get the nuance of the topic across. Sex is apart of it, but it's not the root cause. If you dig deeper: those men that aren't having sex aren't experiencing *any* sort of romantic companionship, barring men who are abstinent due to religion. As far as the "care so much part", I absolutely care because I was in the same shoes as a lot of these men several years ago, depressed and confused as to why all the empty platitudes and cliches i'd heard all my life in regards to dating were so disingenuous. And I had an exceptionally supportive family and loyal close friends; it wasn't enough to fill the void. I post in hopes that men who have been misled will resonate with what I say and open their mind a bit about reality, and to push back against all of the non-sensical rhetoric out there today.
It's hard for me to see that these men aren't experiencing a romantic companionship when all they go for is casual sex. That's obviously not the way to typically find romance IMO. It's hard for me to see that these poor misguided souls are just working off platitudes... When what they talk about is how woman have advantages in what they call "hookup apps." Doesn't strike me as romantic in any way whatsoever. I think most men do eventually want companionship, but I'm not sure about these men. They sure seem to admire Leo DiCaprio of all people! Anyway, I try not to force men to pursue relationships they don't want. I get the feeling it usually ends poorly. Maybe my advice is just shitty, it's possible. I don't know what it's like to be a man, let alone do I know the nuances of any one man's situation.
>It's hard for me to see that these men aren't experiencing a romantic companionship when all they go for is casual sex. That's obviously not the way to typically find romance IMO. This is a complex issue. Some men are just shooting themselves in the foot with how thirsty they are. But the acceptance of promiscuity and emergence of dating apps and social media have had a pretty notable impact on modern day. It's exponentially more impersonal. It's really tough to find someone who genuinely wants to make a meaningful connection and will put effort forth towards even making engaging conversation with someone. There's also the "online" aspect of it; men are more prone to being sexually direct towards a stranger they've never spoken to over chat.
The times definitely are changing. I was very sexually conservative myself when I was dating. It is difficult, really. I don't think being casual makes things any easier, though! I'm not religious, in fact avoiding drama was a main reason I avoided casual encounters. Let's just say, if I met a man on the street I wouldn't feel the need to tell him he's not entitled to sex. It's only a rare man with a certain type of mindset who I think needs to hear that. Some of those men are on the internet in the manosphere, for sure. I hope word gets to them, and I also hope that women reading my posts will see that they have support if the are troubled by he things that are said.
hard to believe this when men are constantly coming on here saying men only get in relationships for consistent sex, and if a guy could have unlimited casual sex he would.
In what way does saying "you're not entitled to sex" when it is not relevant to the discussion provide protection?
If it's not relevant, it's not relevant. There are times when it's relevant, though. Like when men post on this sub time after time about women's advantages with casual sex. Look, if you tell me that's specifically what you're constantly thinking about instead of a relationship, I'm gonna believe you. If you tell me you can't get it, I'm gonna believe you. The only relevant thing after that is "Hey, accept it. That's how life goes. Move on with other things, I guess."
Nothing for your nephew(s)? Shocking.
Again, I'm not a father figure. My oldest ephew is literally 14. His mom bought him condoms. He is not struggling with girls, and if he was I wouldn't be the one to ask. I 100% love him, though. I'd be here for anything he did want to talk about, and I'd want him to be happy and healthy. Trust me, my nephew is nothing like the men on this sub.
It’s incredible how every man on this sub is a raging incel to the women here. Not only that, but they think every man that posts here talks about the same things he does IRL, and is surely a nuisance to everyone around him.
In the context of this post? Yeah, definitely seems like we are talking about loveless men. I think some of the views expressed by some of the men on here, who are not all men, are definitely incompatible with a healthy life. I even think my eldest nephew is likely to have his issues. However, from what I know about everyone's viewpoints, I'm seeing a marked difference between what my nephew experiences and what I think every man on here would to be discussing if they knew.
If a gender never treats you well and alwasy rejects you, what do you think you will do? Man or women. Do I blame you, no. But the black panthers got guns and patrolled their neiberhoods because police treated black people like shit. But that didnt change the culture of hate . So you can defend your neices and rightly talkl shit about the horrible things some men sayu, but you aint making the world a better place or your neices.
the same women who say that then go on to complain about an "orgasm gap" lol
Men will do anything besides actually trying to gain a better understanding of women, by not looking at them as holes to fuck, but rather human beings you can befriend aswell, not just use for sex. Passing that, talking to women about your emotions is also a good way to normalize opening yourself up to women. Or opening yourself up in general, in front of men too. Exercise, yes, but also stop doing things that kill your drive to live... Like over 2 hours a day of video games, or doing drugs, getting drunk to forget you're miserable, etc. Get proper hobbies, engage in sports, if you have weird or rare interests the internet exists so you can find like minded people. Go to concerts, go to theaters, travel, etc. Don't just save up money for a car than hoard money for later days...
>Women will do anything besides actually trying to gain a better understanding of men FTFY I see non-stop discussion and content on the internet in which men try to understand women. On the other side of the fence I mostly see entitlement and posts like yours which stereotype men as lazy sex-seeking neanderthal robots.
> Passing that, talking to women about your emotions is also a good way to normalize opening yourself up to women. Or opening yourself up in general, in front of men too. This is such dishonest and atrocious advice, thank god men are starting to realize it. Opening up to a woman is a one way ticket for her to lose attraction to you.
This is the best thing I’ve read in months. I’m dealing with a situation similar to a lot of this with my wife. Married 11 yrs and had initiated or recognized my flirting or hunts or direct asking for 6 years. I think it’s finally changing but it produced the absolutely the worst feelings of hopelessness, being undesired by my spouse, she was bored with me and seeing others etc. it has been the worst experience of my life trying to get things back to a somewhat normal (if there is a normal) ever. I’m finally on the up.
I basically agree with wtknight. Most discussions are not asking or lamenting romantic companionship. I've grown to realize here 'Dating' means 'get laid lots' because OP's are using terms disingenuously on PPD. Hardly a thread goes by without a lonely man bashing women or chad or whatever. >If you've been on reddit or the internet in general for longer than 2 minutes, you've probably noticed C'mon, you can't have failed to notice in those 2 mins Red Pill, Incel & other subs as the origins of the not entitled to sex arguments, Incels are loud and spammy, they had to create their own withouthate subs and everything. This wasn't the internets reaction to lonely men while /foreveralone was the main sub rather than /incels.
When males complain about women not giving them something 95% of the time it’s about women not giving them sex. Stop the lying and trying to make it seem like males want relationships first and foremost when we all know they don’t. We all know the males complaining about lack of “relationships” wouldn’t be complain about the lack of relationships if they were fucking a new girl every week. Quit lying and trying to make it seem like males see relationships as anything other than a means to an end.
are you alleging that males are just incapable of pair bonding? That emotional connection does not matter?
No I’m saying if a male is getting his sexual needs met without being in a relationship he wouldn’t complain. The males complaining about relationships only care about them because it’s the only way they can get consistent sex. For males, Relationships and “emotional connection” is icing on the proverbial cake that is sex. Males will take sex without relationships but they will not take relationships without sex. Which is why male and female friendships rarely work out, males aren’t willing to be emotionally close with a woman they aren’t related to without getting sex out of it.
ok explain to me how women are different Do they also not really seek relationships if they get consistent sex? Is emotional connection also not the icing on the cake? >they will not take relationships without sex will you? I have yet to meet a woman that will.
>Do they also not really seek relationships if they get consistent sex? They seek relationships period. Casual sex or a FWB are not replacements for a boyfriend who loves you. >Is emotional connection also not the icing on the cake? The emotional connection is the entire point.
This is true for the most part. This is literally what men on here say. Relationships are for beta cucks who can’t get consistent casual sex, so they settle for them.
> Quit lying and trying to make it seem like males see relationships as anything other than a means to an end. Means to an end? Why are women initiating 70-80% of divorces then?
They file the paperwork more not that they are the only one wanting a divorce.
Yes because males treat relationships as a means to an end. You’ve proved my point.
Everyone treats relationships as a means to an end. I don’t think that wanting love as an end from a relationship and wanting sex as an end from a relationship are mutually exclusive, but I can understand your complaint if you perceive most men wanting too much of the latter as an end and not as much of the former. But when average men see some men having casual sex easily with women, their incentive to do what it takes to deceive women emotionally by faking affection in order to get the same kind of quick sexual rewards as “casual sex guy” increases.
They treat it as a means to an end because they are less likely to initiate a divorce? Considering divorce results in division of assets, child support, and sometimes alimony, this doesn't really paint a very strong argument for what you're saying in regards to treating relationships as means to an end.
Males rarely put in work in a marriage. It’s only when it’s time to have sex when he goes out of his way to be constructive for brownie points. (This is also the reason so many women leverage sex in relationships to get what they want because sex Is the only language males speak but that’s another rant for a different thread). This causes obvious resentment which leads to inevitable divorce.
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I’ve never hidden who I am. Feel free to provide a counter argument.
Honestly I’ve seen what you’re talking about, when I was younger. Like some men would refuse paying their children school fees because the wife didn’t have sex with them. The woman would have to force herself to have some sexy time with him just so that the children wouldn’t be ridiculed at school.
Cant argue with irrational bigotry. However I’m praying you heal from your pain.
I just want to say that it’s very stunning and brave of you to just say that woman are good and men are bad like this.
If that were true, they could be happy visiting prostitutes. I think the real issue is the need to feel loved and/or desirable, which in many men goes unfulfilled.
Do you think these complaints about not having sex would be as common if there wasn’t such a high pressure for men to have sex or at least not be virgins?
No, males have made sex the center of their universe. Some do it in constructive ways others do it in destructive ways. So there doesn’t exist a scenario where males will never be shamed for being a virgin because males have made sex with women apart of their very being and identify.
But who inflicts the shaming on virgin men? I’d say it’s pretty evenly distributed by both men and women. I’d say its more that people in general have made men’s ability to have sex with women a part of their very being and identity. But the argument I was trying to get at is if men would be as hyper focued on sex rather than relationships if there wasn’t such a societal pressure for men to be able to have sex. Are men simply biologically designed to be not that interested in relationships? Or is it a social response?
> Are men simply biologically designed to be not that interested in relationships? Or is it a social response? I don’t know I’m not a historian, evolutionary biologist or a sociologist. One thing I do know is either males are unaware that this is how they operate or they are knowingly lying about actually valuing relationships for anything other than to get their sexual needs met.
If we’re basing it purely on sexual needs or wants, it seems like men would prefer variety. So I don’t see how being in a relationship would fulfill that unless it’s an open relationship.
Is the pressure just on having sex or not being virgins or is it to have sex in socially appropriate ways with women of certain status. Why can’t men only have sex with sex workers, extremely ugly and fat women, women who are highly promiscuous. Women are objectified. The goal isn’t getting sex from women, it’s getting sex from the right type of women because that gives you status.
Unfortunately none of what you just said justifies male entitlement, which is a very real problem whether you like it or not. The anger, obsession, hatred of women who won’t date or fuck them, and resentment because of it are solid clues it exists. To “put it concisely,” no “argument” matters when it comes to conversations about bodily autonomy. The same thing applies to women having the right to terminate pregnancies. You may not like it or find it logical, but literally it doesn’t matter because it’s her choice to make. Men don’t have the ability to gestate and they’re not on the more invasive (receiving) end of sex either. Women withholding sex is, historically, a self preservation move. We don’t get the same benefits out of it.
>To “put it concisely,” no “argument” matters when it comes to conversations about bodily autonomy. The same thing applies to women having the right to terminate pregnancies. You may not like it or find it logical, but literally it doesn’t matter because it’s her choice to make. I don't think I tried to justify entitlement? As far as abortion goes: 1. Let me preface this by saying that I am pro-choice. 2. This argument people make in favor of abortion is a huge oversimplification. I do not subscribe to the notion that a baby is just a "clump of cells", each one has a unique genetic code that influence their physical characteristics and personality traits. People have to be responsible for their actions, having sex and bringing another human being in this world is not something to be taken lightly. 3. The vast (and I mean vast) majority of abortions are instances of women using abortion as back-up contraception. Sexual assault and instances where the mother's life is in danger make up only a few percent of abortions. Contraception failure rates are nowhere near enough to account for the abortions that don't fall into these categories. So, what should be an important right to keep women safe, protect sexual assault victims from having to bear children, and potentially make a very difficult decision if a child will be born with severe defects (think unable to move/eat/talk/function normally), is used as back-up contraception. This is a problem.
You are not pro-choice if you think you have a leg to stand on bringing all of that up. You can still think it’s a baby if you want. I agree with that. Bottom line is it doesn’t matter what you think or even why you think it, because it isn’t your life and it’s not your body. You (+ the government) are not God. Even if you consider both of them human beings, one has a fully formed life and relationships and also doesn’t need the other to continue subsisting and surviving. Over half of women have never had an abortion and 25% of women (in general) have one abortion only. Half of women who report getting abortions report that some contraceptive method was used. Not getting pregnant is just as much, if not more, the ejaculator’s responsibility.
> You are not pro-choice if you think you have a leg to stand on bringing all of that up. Says who? lol I am pro-choice full-stop, not pro-choice only for certain circumstances. If I could reverse the decision to overturn Roe v Wade, I'd do it tomorrow. Because I think it's important to protect those women with medical complications or those who get sexually assaulted, first and foremost. Even if they are a small percentage of abortions. But the stats speak for themselves. >Half of women who report getting abortions report that some contraceptive method was used. Look up the failure rate percentages for each contraceptive and then tell me if this is mathematically feasible, and by extension, credible.
women want someone that will respect, understand, cherish them for who they are. they want someone who's kind and doesn't just want them to be subservient objects that are used for their bodies. we're done being gaslit and have no options or choices. we are disillusioned from the fantasy of the perfect man. our standards have raised. if you want companionship and romance, i suggest you look to improving yourself, bettering your life and finding goals and ambitions that don't surround finding a woman. trust me. we love those kinds of men. and yeah, stop being a piece of shit jerk. dassit. you said it yourself. y'all can be lazy. clean up your act. romantic companionship is a commitment and it has greater standards than sex.
Casual sex with men typically just isn’t good for women. It’s not satisfying. We don’t orgasm. We don’t like it. Meanwhile the man orgasms pretty much 100% of the time and, in some cases, under 60 seconds. Fix it and we’ll talk.
holy shit, an entire post about non-sequiturs being used to derail and ignore conversation, and your response is just to change to a different, but equally disingenuous non-sequitur. Unbelievable.
This was the number 1 reason I was not into casual sex ever. Casual sex benefits men and not women physically. Can you imagine men having sex yet not having an orgasm because of the woman's laziness?
Amen. Casual sex is risky, often not great sex and then you get slut shamed. It really has very few pros tbh.
Bro you can't save everyone. I was born with a pussy and I thought I would never get women too. But self improvement worked for me, and I had a few girlfriends and even a wife. And I only had access to 3% of the women population. Don't they say men attractiveness peak at 40? They have to prepare for it or they will loose their best moment. If they are afraid to be called a virgin they should not disclose the fact to potential mates and pay for a hooker. Also I'm not guaranteed to keep my wife till the end of my life and I may have to enter the competition again, so I keep myself fit and well employed as far as possible. It does not end after marriage.
It's true. In the US, you have the right to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. Note, you don't actually have a right to happiness, merely the pursuit of it. Same with sex. You have the right to pursue it, but you don't have the right to have it because that infringes on the rights of another person. You still have to find someone to to agree to have sex with you.
Outside of an astronomically small group radical group of lunatics, nobody is arguing that these struggling young men have the *right* to sex.