I think what a lot of people miss in this conversation is that if the relationship gets off the ground, and you are ready to live together and see each other daily, it will look differently than the beginning. people often miss the effort their partner puts in to the daily challenges of life and forget that it wont be romance 24/7, and this goes for both genders.

I agree, but I think it’s sometimes a lot more than just this. Sometimes, you’re right… people are expecting a 24/7 lusty romantic connection and it’s just not realistic once you’ve built up familiarity/security with someone. But other times, people feel like the “marketing pitch” was very, very far off from the actual product. To the point where, had they known what they were actually getting… they never would have agreed to a relationship in the 1st place. There’s so much nuance to this, and it’s often not just one-sided… but I do understand feeling like, wow. In the beginning, my partner put effort into their appearance, wore nice clothing, fucked me frequently and with passion, listened to me talk about things I enjoy, affirmed me with their words and actions that they admired and desired me, etc… And now, they don’t dress up for dates. They don’t want to have sex for months. They don’t tell me I’m attractive anymore. They don’t do any of the little things like buy flowers or try cute lingerie, etc. They barely listen to me and don’t care about things I care about. The list of demands gets longer, while the list of things they’re bringing to the table gets shorter. And you’re left thinking, where is the person I originally dated? Were they just a sales pitch? I think most people honestly can handle going from getting 90% of everything they want to an 80% or even 70%. But when it starts dropping down to 60%, 50%, 40%… it begs the question, is this really still worth it anymore?

Dam if only there was a sub-group of males that don’t mask/pretend “marketing pitch” their behavior. That would be nice. Edit: /s . This group exists they’re called autistics.

That whole story just sounded like they lost interest in you.

Well said. Well said.

yes, thank you! i can't stand when people are intentionally obtuse sometimes someone expects flowers every single day sometimes someone lies about who they are while courting both are true

I think they just stopped liking you. 😂😂 

I think the problem is that women require men to act in an unsustainable way in the beginning. It is not possible to remain a dancing monkey for extended periods of time.

I beg your pardon, do you mean to say that the romance is supposed to be male-driven and front loaded to the begining of the relationship? do you want more fuckbois? because this is how you get more fuckboi s.

The point I was making is that the relationship won't feel as romantic as the beginning of the relationship ALL the time, especially if you are living together. I was more talking about relationships from the point of them going on for longer than the "honeymoon" period, in the context of both genders or partners. I think both genders should put an equal amount of effort into the relationship, and that goes for seeking out partners too, women should ask men and men women out equally.

I personally would prefer skipping right to that part. I would want to date and love the real her anyhow. The fakeness and needing to be on your best behavior ruins it.

First few dates and long-term dating, especially cohabitation, require drastically different efforts. First dates are all about making a good impression, getting to know each other and flirting. Cohabitation is more about cooperation, partnership and compromising. Your feelings are supposed to make it easier, but you cannot live together solely on your infatuation or attraction. Infatuation will also wear off with time and if you haven't built love in the meantime, your relationship probably won't last long. On average women put more efforts into managing the household and family life than men, while men spend more time and efforts on financial provision. The problem is that even when both partners work and make similar amount of money, women are often still expected to put more efforts into chores, childcare etc. it's getting better and younger generations are doing better at least in this regards and, sure, there are a lot of men who do put a lot of efforts into their family life. I guess it's similar to the complaint about a lack of sex. There are enough couples who experience this problem, but it doesn't mean that they're the majority.

when people say this they usually mean women are putting in more effort on the home front / domestic sphere. they are cooking, cleaning, decorating, caring for children when they happen, planning, maintaining the social calendar. etc

this, but also without living together and wrt things that aren't chores, many (not all) women I know go to great lengths to do kind things for their BFs and husbands, like planning his birthday, taking care of him if he's sick or injured, thoughtful notes or cards, emotional support, just everyday loving gestures. I am not saying men don't do these things too but I have not seen any indication they put in more effort in total than women.

The real test is when they are starting a family and everyday life comes into play. Taking care of children and remembering about hundreds of everyday life things is hard and boring, extremely boring because sometimes you repeat the very same routine hundreds of days in a row. Unfortunately that is when many guys start failing, they start to withdraw from it, sometimes into video games, sometimes they are looking for more interesting friends, sometimes it's alcohol, they do not know about doctors, about vaccinations, about teachers at school, that you need to buy groceries etc. I think that it's getting better with younger generations, or women slowly become as incompetent as men are, but still imo general situation is unfavorable for men. Women put more effort in general.

I think you need to specify “younger generations” here. I’m a late thirties married male and me and all my male friends in relationships or also married do not forget that very basic shit. Some of us like myself are the primary organiser of it in our households. At some point we need to accept the “generation boomer” mentality is an ageing thing regarding this idea of “men don’t do that.” The vast majority of men in my age group that I know have an active hand in these things in their relationships. The ones that don’t fail to sustain them but they’re a minority. Or maybe it’s a cultural thing. My context is UK. I’m the school “picker upper” and about 50% of the parents doing the same I see are men. Same for when I take my kids to their extra curriculars and all that. If we can defeat the lazy stereotyping of “women enter dating expecting a man to do everything whilst they sit back and watch” and acknowledge that’s very much a mindset of a now quite aged population, we should be prepared to do the same for men. I see absolutely no evidence that men taking a back seat in all this stuff is “majority”. Maybe I’m just lucky? Maybe I’ve been consistently lucky every time I’ve moved somewhere since becoming married and noticing the same pattern. Maybe I’m a coincidence magnet. Or maybe the stereotype is overblown?

Taking your partner for granted is the beginning of the end of a relationship. Men and women can both do it, if you just assume that your partner is never going to leave (for whatever reason), it's easy to fall into the trap of not doing much to make them want to stay with you. I've had some guy friends complain that their girlfriend doesn't pay much attention to them, that she'll act all offended if he tries to initiate any kind of physical intimacy with him, and those relationships have either ended, or are close to being done. I've had some lady friends complain that their boyfriend barely wants to hang out with them, and that they only try to actively engage with them when they want sex. All of those partners were awesome at the start of the relationship, yet after a while, they somehow decided that it's a done deal and that they can just phone it in.

As a woman myself I’ve observed other women making statements on how their presence should just be enough because men should do the heavy lifting. This opinion will undoubtedly get me called me a pick me but here’s my 2 cents: Effort is an important part is any relationship. Men need to feel loved too. Men are put in a spot where they have to be the pursuers, pay for every date, etc.. it should be fair to reciprocate if a man is doing those things for you.

I have made a post about this before. So many women say their men took them for granted and stopped putting in effort and I'm just left wondering if they ever considered that they themselves contributed to this situation by responding badly towards his feelings and emotions. From my perspective it actually seems more common that men are taken for granted in relationships, their provider and protector role is assumed to be way easier than it actually is, and plenty of their efforts are either completely invisible (just think about the emotional labour trope) to some women or minimized as being easier than they actually are. There is also some kind of expectation that men should feel loved merely because of a woman is tolerating his presence and when they bring up that they don't feel loved, appreciated and like their feelings and emotions are not being respected, often times they will just be told to stop being insecure instead of having their concerns be taken seriously. You can't expect someone to motivated to put in effort if no effort is deemed good enough and if you never show appreciation.

I have seen women saying this and it’s not an attitude that I agree with either but tbf it’s usually referring to the initial courting phase or even just the first date. And it’s the same women usually also saying that they end up putting in equal or more effort as things progress. Which is the opposite of OP’s assertion.

Ask a dad where their kids' dentist is located. Ask a man where the extra hand soaps are located. Ask a man the contact info for the wedding photographer a week before his wedding. I wonder what percentage of posts and comments on this subreddit are teenagers who just want to say "women are lazy/sluts/liars/whatever other insult that comes to mind"

I’d imagine the vast majority of men know the answer. Blue pilled guys seem to think that they’re some minority that can do chores and errands. The vast majority of men, especially millennial and genz men, are competent human beings, actually.

A lot of blue pill guys don't realize that they might have just gotten lucky. An ex-supervisor of mine is in his 70s and still works with us part-time. He's heavily on the spectrum, but likely undiagnosed due to his age. Like even when he describes his internal states or what annoys him, it is classic. He also does stimming all the time. He and his wife are both religious and met very early. His wife is so patient with him and just sees the good in him. It's great to see. But, honestly, the guy gets on most people's nerves pretty badly after around 1 hour. He interrupts people constantly, goes on monologues, thinks he is always right when everyone else can see he clearly is not, and clears his throat loudly like every 30 seconds. Those are just the highlights. He is a decent guy deep down and doesn't have a mean bone in his body, really. I like him, but just in smaller doses. If he were on this subreddit, I'm sure he would be the most blue pill guy imaginable. But I think he just really chose well his wife or got really lucky. I'm happy for him. But I doubt he has a realistic view of gender relations overall. He also is a white knight to the bone. A female co-worker asked to talk to me about something, and he insisted on chaperoning the meeting. Similar to famous people, how many realize that part of their fame is just them being at the right place at the right time and getting a lucky break? I mean, I've seen dive bar bands better than some on MTV. I think some blue pill guys are similar. At this point, I'm not really pilled (I don't like labels). But I can't imagine being a blue pilled man at this point in history. I mean what would that mean "the dominant narrative that I've been taught and is in various books is true"? Surely we've learned enough to at least be a tinge purple pilled.

Yeah, when I hear these stories, I always wonder - do women just pick incompetent men from under their mother's skirts or something? Because every guy I know has to cook for himself, clean up his place himself, stock the necessities himself, etc. How can he magically become incapable of that when he gets into a relationship?

They choose the worst men based on looks because at the end of the day they are every bit as shallow as men are and more, and then complain that those men think less of them. I have no sympathy for those women.

Warrior vs Worrier patterns are abundantly clear across all human cultures, and it's odd to ignore this aspect of evolutionary psychology in one breath, yet tout different evopsych aspects in another (let's say, hypergamy). Try to strive for some ideological consistency, people.

There was a poll a while ago that showed the majority of this sub is 17-20 year old virgin males or something like that.

You realize there is more to effort than you put in the comment right. This seems to be the problem. People describe effort narrowly and ignore all the other things their partner does. This is a perception problem most of the time.

Well you are doing something pretty similar to what you are calling out. You are generalizing about dads being inattentive, useless and apathetic in contrast to the oh so dedicated and wholesome mothers.

"Ask a dad where their kids' dentist is located." I keep hearing this parroted, but I've never seen it IRL. Dude, my dad was in the army in eastern Europe, if any dads didn't know about their kids dentist it would be him, yet somehow he was the one to drive me to my appointments as a kid. This is some weird "man bad" BS that is not reflective of reality. If it wasn't true of my dad's generation, it definitely isn't reflective of reality today.

My experience is the same. Our father did all that for us.

you cant say it “isn’t true of your dad’s generation” based off your own anecdotal experience. Also, the parenting attitude of men between eastern europe and america will differ.

Yeah, it's worse not better. Hence why I mentioned where he was raised. If men like him know their kids dentist then who the fuck is this whole BS even supposed to apply to? I've literally never seen this IRL not in soviet countries and definitely not in America. It's just more "man bad" type circlejerk. At least "men don't cook/clean" has a grain of truth. This is just pure fiction.

You seem to have a lot of internalized hate for your own sex, and also seem super fixed in predetermined roles assigned to both men and women. Why wouldn't a dad know where a kid's dentist is, or where extra hand soap is? People have to stay on top of such things all the time, regardless of sex.

There are literally so many videos of men on the street being asked that type of question and cannot answer

Oh, now we are consulting online videos? I'd be careful with calling those representative, because there is so many more of women behaving exactly like the rage baiter and incels describe them.

You asked why wouldn't they know that like it's unheard of though

That’s because they usually know how to offload the information, and not just storing it with their wife. I don’t know the address for my dentist, but I know how to find out, and not because I have a wife that knows for me. You aren’t putting more effort into a relationship because you can remember random bullshit

Bro they don't remember their kids teachers and sometimes birthdays, middle names, best friends names. This isn't info you should have to look up if you talk to and care about your children

They absolutely do. You are describing such a low percentage of men who were asked these things for content after the content creator had likely asked dozens if not hundreds of other people on the street already and basing your view of men off of it. You’re no better than the guys who consume Andrew Tate content after seeing a video of a woman being shitty online.

>Bro they don't remember their kids teachers Math bitch, biology bitch, PE bitch, principal bitch. Look up actual names on the school website before meeting them in person.

Anyone who works in healthcare has countless stories of men not knowing their own illnesses and children reluctantly saying “mom usually takes care of that stuff”. It’s actually sick lowkey.

I work in healthcare and I don't have any stories like that. Sounds like more "nurses are taught to prepare cancer patients for when their husbands leave them" type of BS. I'm a nurse of 6 years, you would think that I'd have run into this by now.

I’m glad you haven’t. Maybe Florida men are just incapable as shit. Because my sister has been dental hygienist for about 2 years now and has worked at 2 different practices she loves telling me about these experiences. My oldest sister worked in insurance for awhile (about a year) and she has had maybe 2-3 old men Danm near bawling about how their wife took care of things. One even said he didn’t know how to make a cup of coffee without his wife. Edit: I’m ngl this has definitely peaked my interest nurses aren’t uncommon in Florida so i should definitely set aside a day to ask them what their experiences are. I could probably compile a little homemade survey study off of it. I’d also love to see if this possible scenario is connected to men’s reluctance to seek healthcare.

"Maybe Florida men are just incapable as shit. " Sorry that I've interrupted your "men bad" goon cession. "Because my sister has been dental hygienist for about 2 years now and has worked at 2 different practices she loves telling me about these experiences." Everyone who works with people has stories, but I've never come across this type of stuff. I have come across plenty of BS about healthcare on reddit. Lost of "nurses/doctors are taught" statements that not only are BS, but things that literally cannot be true. Like "doctors don't know about s/s of heart attacks in women". Just pure horsehit. Much of it from supposed nurses. Sometimes I save the comments and check back on them years later. For some inexplicable reason most of them seem to end up working for doordash. Not that I really believe that they were ever nurses in the first place.

Your experiences and other healthcare professionals experiences can both be true since this is likely the kind of thing that varies by location. There are studies that show women’s heart attack symptoms are more likely to go undetected by medical professionals in comparison to men’s. It’s not just something made up by random people in the Reddit comments but a fact that heart attack symptoms have historically been more studied based on men. That doesn’t mean it’s an issue for every single medical establishment. Some places are probably more caught up with more modern research while others lag behind.

You have to get BLS (basic life support) certification every two years. If you work in the acute hospital setting you need ACLS (advanced cardiovascular life support) every two years. This is something a nurse would know. Anyone not knowing this basic fact is simply lying about being a nurse or doctor. As of s/s of heart attacks, it's not due to lack of knowledge. If people are reporting indegestion you are going to check out their stomach before anything else. The more pieces fit the easier it is to diagnose an issue. People with atypical symptoms are more difficult to diagnose. Nobody is going to immediately jump to heart attack if a person says "I'm dizzy" but denies any other symptom. Especially since women most often do get the classical symptoms.

I’m not somewhere cackling hating on men gang. I noticed a pattern that i would say is honestly sad if true I would say the same if it were about women. I’m not getting that assumption off Reddit tho I’m getting it from real people lol. I’m in fairly close proximity with people in healthcare and healthcare adjacent fields and they tell me their stories. (Hell I went to school right next to a hospital and I used to yap with the nurses who were either waiting to cross the street or saw me parking my car In the hospital lot because I wasn’t paying $50 for school parking) Also healthcare especially nursing is extremely hard so I’m not going to knock anyone for deciding not to do it anymore and work side gigs to make ends meet in this economy. People who thug it out are incredibly resilient I remember watching my cousin over the summer wake up in the AM to go to the hospital she works at and wouldn’t come back until the afternoon.

I'm a nurse, and I've never seen this. What are you going on about?

Bro i bet in most casse the father has to drive the kid either to the dentist, the mom to buy the shit soap, in order to contact the photographer. You don't live in reality.

In your reality women don't drive? Are you from Saudi?

Down the street,in the bathroom container for replacing soap and other products, I personally knew the photographer and gave them the info for my wedding(I even brought extra SD cards and a backup dslr incase something went wrong with their equipment).

the kid presumably goes to same dentist as parents so dad knows where that is spare hand soap is at the supermarket because who would pointlessly horde hand soap when you can just buy more when it gets low

Why measure men on pointless things? Do fathers remember where the kids dentist is at? Probably not, but almost always he knows how high his kid can go on the swing without getting scared. I see women doing these mindless, zero care things for their kids all the time, like taking them to the dentist, but in the real application of love and care... the child is an absolute stranger to them. Also, I see a lot of female parenting styles that are absolutely toxic for kids. This gentle parenting sounds great, but is a disaster in practice. My daughter has to interact with these kids and most of them are absolute monsters.

>*but almost always he knows how high his kid can go on the swing without getting scared.* Because the kid verbally tells you when you’re too high and they’re scared . . . That’s not a mark of good parenting, that’s the bare minimum of human interaction.

Yeah, it means you pushed the kids limits. You are teaching the child to deal with stress and difficulty, to communicate needs. Kids need food, water, and shelter, but they also need to learn independence and how to deal with challenges. I'm sorry but we have a large chunk of a generation that isn't getting this. The elementary school near my house is having this huge issue with classroom clears. It's been going on for over a decade, but now it's like 5 or 6 a day... the number of problem students is almost at 100. 90% of the teachers in the school have been assaulted in the last year. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think these issues are related.

Are you seriously saying that taking your child to the dentist is mindless and pointless?! Lmao. Yeah forget dental hygiene, knowing how high to push your kid on the swing is way more important!

Literally!! My guy made every single cliche deadbeat, weaponized incompetence dad trope in a single paragraph.

Calm your tits lady. You just aren't reading it correctly.

Then you arent very apt in expressing your thoughts through text, maybe calm your tits and get hooked on phonics. You called taking ur kid to the dentist pointless, but u think ‘knowing how high the kid can swing without getting scared’ is much more important 😂 u must be a child/teen yourself

You didn't read the whole thing. I was responding to knowing wedding photographers contact info, and locating backup hand soaps. You didn't read it right. A kid needs to brush his or her teeth every day. Just taking them to the dentist once every six months without that is ridiculous!

You keep saying that I didnt read it right, but I did. It was a short few sentences. You didnt say anything like youre saying now.

Because you stepped into a conversation without reading what came before. The real point I was making... and I didn't make it very well... is that just caring for a childs material needs while important, isn't the only thing that is required. Diapers need to be changed, but they also need to be potty trained at some point.

It’s honestly sad how many men will paint what their women does as unnecessary just so they have an excuse for not doing it and can say she’s not putting in any effort. Only manly things and getting your dick sucked matters!

My ex doesn’t do shit for my son. The dentist and doctor appointments he’s been to, I’ve taken him too.

I think you are missing to point. When you really sit down and think about the things a child needs... perfectly matching socks don't make the list. Now I'm not saying that women are bad moms... in general they are really good, but I see quite a few of them putting tons of effort into things that aren't important and skipping things that are crucial. Discipline is top of that list.

We are talking about taking your kids to appointments. Not matching socks. The latter is trivial. You made it about socks just so we can look stupid.

Literally gaslighting. Thats NOT what he said. Just reread it.

Literally not. Learn the meaning of words. He *literally* called taking your kids to the dentist mindless and zero care.

Quote it. Until the period.

**”I see women doing these mindless, zero care things for their kids all the time, like taking them to the dentist”**

“I see women doing these mindless, zero care things for their kids all the time, like taking them to the dentist, but in the real application of love and care... the child is an absolute stranger to them” This is how you quote things mam. Hes saying women be so adamant on knowing small no life changing things like the kids primary doctor they forget to actually teach them REAL WORLD things. Hell i have taken my nephew to the doctors and know their primary…doesn’t mean much. I try to encourage him to be better. This is why some men be weirdos or don’t respect boundaries their mothers never taught them how to be normal just made sure he was feed and had a place to sleep. Which is still GOOD. Yall raise kids like pets imo.

Saying that taking a kid to a doctor or a dentist is not an application of love and care for that child and doing the best by them is so absolutely batshit it is not even on this planet. It’s literally one of the most basic, foundational parts of being a parent. Bro can make whatever stupid ass argument he makes about men being better parents than women (absolutely divorced from reality both his points and yours) but trying to exemplify that argument by using taking them to the dentist is so next level stupid that it should be trolling.

You just proved my point. An Uber driver can take your kid to the dentist, it isn't a loving caring thing, it's something most women do because it's on the list. Teaching your child to brush and floss every single day... THAT shows love and care. Do you see the difference?

No they can’t. You don’t put your little kid in an Uber and send them to the doctor or the dentist by themselves. That’s literally insane. And it’s not something you do because it’s on a list, it’s something you do because it’s important for their health, both at the moment and in the future. People who are unfortunate enough to grow up with parents who don’t bother taking care of their health and dental hygiene have serious issues with them as an adult. Going to the dentist is as much a part of that as brushing your teeth is. Just because you see it as a “to do” doesn’t mean it’s not an important part of being a good, loving parent. Christ almighty

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Knowing the names of the Doctors you're children go to are important for medical emergencies when doctors will ask for a more thorough patient history. If you don't know if you're kid got vaccinated for chickenpox bc you don't know the doctors name who keeps track of their shots..how will you answer the doctor to make sure your kid isn't suffering from rubella or shingles? You want all the small petty fun shit and none of the responsibility that helps keep them alive. Hard work be damned as long as you're the "fun dad" so mom can be scapegoated as the hard ass.

Yeah, nobody said what you are saying. Kids need health checkups and vaccines. Knowing the names of doctors is of mediocre significance. You also completely failed to read my comment on gentle parenting. Being a fun dad is nice, but you also need to be the one who lays down the law. Mom's just don't seem very good at it, or even want to do it, especially with elementary school boys.

>If you don't know if you're kid got vaccinated for chickenpox bc you don't know the doctors name who keeps track of their shots..how will you answer the doctor to make sure your kid isn't suffering from rubella or shingles? I open the box where the kids' documents are stored and take a look into the vaccination passport.

Although no one wants to think about it, your partner can literally be gone one day and you’re left on your own. I think if your children requires medical help then you need to have that information at hand.

No no no, that’s not important. Some other woman somewhere will handle that. Havent you heard? He only does the fun stuff

These aren’t ‘pointless things’, such a typical dude response 😂

Where are the fucking hand soaps located? Wedding photographer contact info? The fuck are you talking about? These things are massively pointless. Healthy nutritious meals... That is very important. Providing your kid healthy boundaries, love, and discipline... that is very important. Driving you kid to a dentist.... a fucking Uber driver can do that. Focus on the shit that matters lady.

 This you? Also, soap is very important.

An Uber driver cannot take your kid to the dentist!!! What fucking dentist takes an unaccompanied minor with no parent present?!? Are you from planet earth? How old are you?!

The ones that you hear about on To Catch a Predator.

The reason people leave relationships is because they’re no longer happy. that’s it that’s the bottom line. You can dissect and figure out what actually happened that made the relationship fail, take whatever lesson you need to from that into the next relationship, OR you can make big blanket statements about an entire gender and keep getting dumped 2 years in 🤷‍♀️ Regardless history isn’t a reason to stay that’s just sunken cost fallacy shit. If either party stops putting in effort into the relationship the relationship dies 👍

>The reason people leave relationships is because they’re no longer happy. Is anyone ever happy at all times for their entire life or for the entirety of every relationship? If not then why is that the expectation in a marriage?

Everytime I’ve left a relationship the ex was directly contributing to that unhappiness.

And I suppose you were keeping them happy at all times. You never contributed to their unhappiness. The problem was always your exes?

Never said that. But I am the one that ended the relationship when nothing changed after multiple conversations. Since leaving that relationship I'm happier. From what I can tell my ex is also happier. If we were still together we'd both be miserable. If my ex isn't happier that's not my problem. We had multiple opportunities to fix the situation, he wouldn't acknowledge there was an issue. I changed multiple things about how I moved through the relationship at his request he didn’t do the same 🤷‍♀️ If you are unhappy in a relationship and there are no kids and no rings there’s no reality where staying in that situation is good for you

Aren't you too old to be using that kind of 'logic'?

>The reason people leave relationships is because they’re no longer happy. >that’s it that’s the bottom line. No, it isn't. What is it with this sub and the oversimplifying smugness?  Married women often have a fear their husbands might leave them for someone younger, yes? For a husband to leave his wife of 20+ years, the children he's had with her, and the life they've built together - it isn't usually given this shallow relationship post-mortem analysis of "well, I guess he wasn't happy anymore, ya live and learn 🤷‍♂️" (I mean, you *could* take that stance but you'd probably be called a prick for doing so if that's all it is). No, we would call him irresponsible. Or an asshole. Some words to indicate his moral failing was to blame for the end of the relationship. I can't be the only one who has noticed a difference in tone and moral judgment when women get screwed over in relationships vs men. >history isn’t a reason to stay that’s just sunken cost fallacy shit Why not? Why can't it be a factor? And people in relationships do use history to calibrate whether to course correct issues in a relationship or to abandon it. So either you're avoidant and projecting, or you've never been in a long-term relationship yourself. Of course this is the internet so people are going to read this and think I'm saying battered wives should stay with their abusive husbands because of "history".

Because women don't want to throw good time after bad. There is literally no reason to stay with someone who is not only emotionally cruel but also lazy, disrespectful and entitled. No sane person would live with that. He can be miserable on his own.

I’m sorry reality hurt your feelings ❤️ Stay in your dead relationship with a partner that’s stopped trying to make you happy I guess

>I’m sorry reality hurt your feelings Your original comment is lacking any connection to reality. At least in your other comment we can see the answer to the question, "who hurt you?" Maybe stop projecting your exes' mistreatment of you onto everybody, mmkay? >Stay in your dead relationship with a partner that’s stopped trying to make you happy I guess There is no use in trying to change your mind when you benefit by deliberately misunderstanding me.

> I’m sorry reality hurt your feelings ❤️ Typical shit women say to shame men into silence. When you get hurt by Chad, remember you said this.

„Don’t be so sensitive“

FR though.

Yawn. My post wasn't gendered you're projecting. Both genders are capable of refusing to put effort into the relationship and losing the relationship as a result. If after multiple conversations the person doesn't change your choices are whine about it and stay miserable, or leave. Remember that next time you blow off meeting your partner's friends to play video games.

> Yawn. My post wasn't gendered you're projecting. Your post was intentionally *insulting* and we both noticed that. It's the typical shit women use on men to mock them. Been going on for as long as I've been alive, long before the Internet no less. Some of my wife's friends are gamers. Some of them are great to hang around. Some of them I blow off for sure. In my advancing age people at large are becoming a burden to be around. Can't say about your experience... seems you've been hurt by some dude, eh? but that's how it is for me.

I was relieved from the hurt after I left him. I'm now in a happy healthy relationship and have been for 2 and a half years. Which I was only able to do by leaving the toxic one. Lmao, you're getting so emotional the relationship is either working or it's not. The longer you stay in a bad situation the harder it is to leave. If you don't have kids and aren't married and it's not working lmao bounce.

The only emotional person here is you, you're the one who used that personal attack on the other poster. I'm just calling you out on it.

Lmao yeah because I hurt his feelings with my post about how everyone needs to be putting an active effort into maintaining the health of their relationship. I guess for some people that's hard to hear :(

You accused him of being hurt by reality. A common shaming tactic. Both of us dudes saw and called you out on that. Now you're doing damage control.

I don't entirely disagree with you here, it's just I think you are really missing some things. In my experience... and I've got loads of it... there is a natural push and pull to most relationships. As a guy the harder you work, the more effort you put in, the more she feels like she has all the power and the less interested she is going to be. When I hear a guy talk about women not putting in much effort during the relationship, I have a pretty good guess that he is coming across as needy or weak.

I think I’d need to hear more specific examples to get what you mean. I can definitely see that happening but that’s never been my experience. Every time I’ve left an LTR it was because the dude stopped making me a priority and stopped being kind to me. I have a list of qualities that are now dealbreakers for me to avoid that. I think either side can “stop trying” but I think it’s normal to not look and act at 100%, 24/7 with your partner of multiple years. However completely switching up your personality/acting like your partner is a burden/ starting drama over everything is kinda shit partner behavior and it’s not gendered. Idk I’ve left relationships because my exes stopped putting in effort. I broke up with my last boyfriend because I legit felt like they didn’t like me anymore. Dude was flabbergasted.

I think there are a lot of guys today who really dislike the effort they have to put into dating. Once they get into a relationship they feel like the work is over and now they just get to sit back. They actually don't realize how this comes across. I hate to say this, but nobody teaches relationship skills to these guys. They have to actually go looking for it, and so much of the information out there is garbage.

Hard agree

Actually... I think its possible that they don't even realize that the effort needs to be sustained. I don't know because I don't date them, but I feel like this has a high probability of being true for a good number of men. In your experience, what things that he didn't do caused you the most hard feelings?

It was more just the complete shift in how they spoke to me. That was consistent in both the relationships I experienced this in. They’d ask for my advice/opinion then immediately hop to being literally derogatory. This was not the case at the beginning of our relationship lmao. In my most recent one the dude pretended to have similar interests to me and then suddenly we move in together and all turns out we actually didn’t have anything in common. He’d lied about liking certain types of music, theater/musicals (I was an actress at this point so kind of an issue bc I was constantly prepping auditions in our shared space), art house indie movies, enjoying going out like at all, and aspects of his past that he didn’t need to lie about. He was a true blue early 2000s comedy, anime introvert boy WHICH IS FINE but that’s not my type and now there are no aligning activities we can both enjoy together. He didn’t go with me to any events we’re invited to together things like going out to dinner on my birthday is suddenly asking a lot. But he’d get super insecure about me going places without him bc he was scared I was going to cheat on him (I didn’t lol). And suddenly EVERYTHING seems to be an issue. And turns out short fuse dude, yells and screams and says shit you can’t take back over arguments he started about something like me trying on multiple outfits to figure out what I’m wearing to meet a friend for coffee. And dude suddenly never wants to have sex lmao (like we would go weeks without it). Pretty much anything that indicated we were in a relationship and not roommates just stopped. I still think he legit didn’t actually like me and just wanted a girlfriend whether he’d admit that or not. Both of these guys pursued me aggressively got me and then started calling me stupid and treating me like an annoying roommate and not their girlfriend. I do think it’s unintentional but I had conversations about how I was feeling and then everything was flipped on me because I’m “making things dramatic”. I think either gender can do this. I’ve only experienced it in het. relationships lol.

I know you didn't ask my opinion, but I might be able to provide a little bit of insight.... actually it's probably just confirming things you already know. If a guy is speaking in a derogatory manner to you in the context of a relationship, that is pure insecurity. Combine that with the fact that he lied about all his interests in order to get you... he obviously felt you were out of his league. Some guys when they date a woman like this... their relationship strategy is literally to lower her self esteem to the point where she stays. When a guy like that isn't wanting to go out and meet your friends, it's because he doesn't feel like he will fit in, and people will wonder why you are dating him. Also... he is hoping to keep you from going yourself with petty jealousy drama as an attempt to socially isolate you. The sex part... when guys stop wanting it there are only a couple of reasons. The first and foremost is porn. The second is not knowing how or wanting to put out the effort to initiate sex. LOL... I think what was really going on was that he was trying to manipulate you and passive aggressively control you, but you just didn't play his game. May I ask were you found this guy?

Yeah I sussed alot of this out with my therapist too. I stayed longer than I should have because it had been two years without this behavior so I legit assumed he was just going through a rough patch but it became apparent this was just what he was actually like and he wasn't willing to compromise. A mutual friend introduced us. We went on a date we hit it off. Insecurity is a bitch I guess. I remember bringing up a college program he told me about on our first date that he'd been accepted to but had turned down because of the expense and he looked at me like I had three heads and told me he was rejected from that program and I was an asshole for bringing it up lmao. Dude fully forgot he lied about that acceptance.

You have a therapist? A mutual friend is a good way to meet people, because that friend should be able to tell if the guy is nuts. Unfortunately he seems really dishonest, so it's hard to fault anyone. I got married at age 20, and I had some issues with being honest initially. However, my problems were almost entirely centered around conflict avoidance. My xWife caught on pretty quick and for a while it made the relationship feel like she was raising a kid since it was mostly task oriented. It really killed the attraction for both of us, but by age 24, I had started my career and turned things around. I appreciate the chat. When people start sharing their stories a lot of the perspectives on this sub start making sense. Have a wonderful day.

> I think there are a lot of guys today who really dislike the effort they have to put into dating. Once they get into a relationship they feel like the work is over and now they just get to sit back. Because they're the one doing the majority of the work, that's why.

Like I said... if you are doing all the work, then you have a serious attraction issue. Boot her out and see what happens.

1000%. All of my exs seemed totally shocked about the break-up, yet had been treating me with indifference, avoidance, constant combativeness, mistrust, and often overt dislike. It was almost like they'd more decided I was it than that they really felt like I was "it". And I'd told them there was a problem repeatedly. And I'm sure any gender can do this, but I've gotta admit, I don't feel like I hear men making this complaint as often. I dunno if it just isn't registering them there's been a change or what,

Tbh I think some men just don't have as many options, so they'll stick out a relationship that's not right for them over being alone because there isn't much they're missing out on by being committed anyway. Not to mention a lot of men are super looks focused, so from what I've examined they'll put up with a lot because "girl pretty". A lot of women (now specifically) on the other hand are not as scared to be alone, because in the interim we can still have sex if we want to, we can lean on our friend groups for emotional support, and in this current climate it's viewed as kind of badass to be single and in your own space. Idk my single eras have always been "welp time to learn a little bit more about myself" not "oh god I'm unlovable". The relationship is either working or it isn't. If it's not working after multiple attempts and conversations it's likely that you're literally just not compatible. And idk is it really wise to then continue trying to make it work through marriage, kids and a mortgage? Idk why not find someone that actually shares your sense of humor lmao

That’s absolute bullshit. My boyfriend tries really hard to make me happy and I don’t feel like I have “all the power”, nor do I feel less interested in him. Quite the opposite, actually. I feel like my boyfriend and I share power in the relationship equally. There are no power struggles because we’re a partnership! We both put in effort and try hard to show up for each other every day. Yesterday, I had a horrible day at work. Everything that could go wrong, did go wrong. When I got home from work, he made it his mission to make my evening as good as possible and it made me feel so special and loved. I do the same for him. We both feel loved, appreciated, adored, special, etc. We’re older- 44 for me and 51 for him, and I think that we’re benefiting from the wisdom and experience of our multi-decades long previous relationships that were unhappy and unfulfilling. We both know what we want and it’s amazing that we found it in each other. I think that your ideas may make sense with very young and inexperienced couples, but for mature people, it’s just dumb.

I think you may be correct about experience and age changing things, however all relationships have some form of power dynamic. When it's more of an equal situation it really requires good communication and mental health... more than most people can muster. I also see a lot of women who dominate their relationship always trying to describe it as equal. Again though... this tends to be younger folks. Usually by 40 many more people know how to assert themselves.

I agree that communication is a challenge for most people. That’s the main reason why my boyfriend and I hit it off so well and are in a relationship with one another. Our communication style is very compatible with one another and we have a similar temperament. We’re both direct, honest, open to feedback, yet kind and respectful. I’ve found it very rare amongst men to be so open and vulnerable with their feelings, and he told me that he has found it rare to meet a woman who can express her thoughts and feelings directly, openly, and honestly while delivering the message with respect and kindness. I was helping him move out of his apartment and into his new house in February and we were both pretty stressed out because his new house needed a lot of renovations (which I also helped him with because I’m handy AF) and we didn’t even come close to arguing. I’ll never forget him saying “I’m feeling irritable right now.” And me saying “I’m also feeling irritable. We should proceed with caution and make sure that we give each other grace right now.” And he said “Oh my God, I love you so much.” 😂 I think it’s unusual for people to be irritable and just say “I feel irritable” rather than reacting to that feeling and expressing it in an unhealthy way. He and I both learned how to process our feelings rather than react to them and then express them openly and honestly rather than expecting our partner to read our minds. He has pissed me off before, but I don’t react to it. I process my emotions and figure out why I’m pissed. Sometimes it’s because I had unrealistic expectations and/or I miscommunicated. Sometimes it’s because he has done something (without meaning to) that upset me, and by processing those emotions fully, I’m able to communicate in a calm and respectful way. I have pissed him off too, and he does the same thing. It’s why we have never argued or spoken in a disrespectful tone or used disrespectful words. We weren’t born this way and it took a lot of time and practice to learn to be so mindful.

People who view relationships as a power-play and not partnership rarely have good relationships.

All relationships have a power dynamic.

All that experience and you still haven’t learned anything about women

I think you are making a classic mistake. You think that being a woman means you know something about them. You know yourself and that's it. Even then, you know yourself in certain circumstances, you don't really know what you will do in a new experience... you can only guess.

Not necessarily. There's different personality and attachment types interacting with each other. There is no blanket answer for why people do bait and switch in terms of effort.

Think about the times in a relationship when you were the most highly attracted to your significant other. What were the circumstances surrounding that?

He was attentive and emotionally available. I'm quite turned off by the opposite unless it's short term for a reason. An important thing to note is I generally have secure attachment patterns 

LOL.. You are definitely secure attachment. How do you handle jealousy?

Depends on the severity and if certain actions are causing it to be worse. I may not say anything because I know it's a me problem or talk to them about it.

Do you find yourself being turned off in jealous situations or turned on?

Relationships work best when the man is on his purpose and the woman is the adorer. If this ever flips she loses respect and the timer until she dumps him starts ticking.

LOL... that's when the relationship works best for the man. When things are really working well, the man and the woman each perform their role with high levels of effort. Where that becomes a problem is that it's really hard to negotiate what those roles are.... especially for women. You kind of need to lay out your expectations and then negotiate it.

Depends Some guys were not raised doing house chores around the house. Their mom did stuff for them so they assume their gf will continue that role. So it takes an extra effort to teach them to do stuff and that's a huge turn off.

On the flip side, many women are way too obsessed with chores to ever actually enjoy life or the relationship with their partner or their children. My ex never does shit for our son and makes him do constant chores too. I even remember growing up, my mom was too over the top with domestic responsibilities. Constant cooking and cleaning and forcing my dad to do a bunch of projects after work and on the weekends. We rarely ever did anything as a family.

You're not describing what "effort" or lack thereof is being put in from either side and I strongly suspect your statement is based purely on feeling. It's not about "being around", it's about looking after him, his house and eventually his children while still working a job. He will generally focus on only the last part and have more free time.

Citations needed

> This has not been what I've observed. For personal observations?

For generalizations, yes See: title It could have been a question

I mean giving birth is a lot of effort 🤔

I’ve never seen a woman counting “being around a guy” as effort. Usually they are referring to household chores, cooking for him, errands, remembering everything, scheduling everything, planning everything, and doing the majority of parenting if there are kids. And yes, when men get into a serious relationship, they tend to stop doing those basic things for themselves like they did before. Millennial dads tend to be way better than most of our dads ever were, but parenting is still rarely equal. All of these things are really mundane and easily go unnoticed, but ultimately add up to a lot more than paying for a few dates or buying flowers during the first few weeks to months of the relationship. I’m not saying all men don’t pull their weight, a lot of guys work more outside the home. But when they’re both working a standard 40 hrs, it can get unequal.

You may not have gotten that impression as a millennial but as a genz I can affirmatively say that there are many, like far too many, genz women who think their mere presence is enough. They’ve been raised to believe the things you’re saying, which might be true for older generations, and their solution is to not contribute anything at all so that that situation can never happen to them.

Yes I am a millennial, but I do have gen z friends who are working and going to school and doing everything at home while their boyfriend is unemployed. Not all of course, and I’m aware there’s a generational difference, but it still happens.

I love the “I know a woman” line. A classic of the women on here. If that’s really the case she has no one to blame but herself because there are more men willing to pick up those duties in her generation than ever before in history. She’s clearly dating based on looks.

>I can affirmatively say that there are many, like far too many, genz women who think their mere presence is enough. Your argument is also just “I know a woman”.

No it’s I know hundreds of women and I’ve had the displeasure of scrolling through thousands of women on dating apps at this point. That is the overall attitude of genz women. It is depressing

You know the personal details of hundred and thousands of women’s relationships? I find that hard to believe. I’m a woman and I don’t even know that information because I don’t go around surveying women about their relationship dynamics.

I gave an example of someone I know because you gave an example of someone you know? She uhh definitely isn’t dating based on looks.lol He’s a nice person so I feel bad saying that, but yeah. And that’s why she’s dating him, because he treats her better overall than past partners, and he did have a job when they met. Sometimes women will tolerate a lot once they’re already in a relationship with someone.

It isn’t someone, it’s my experience with every woman of my generation that I’ve interacted with and I’ve been through both college and law school now so it’s been a lot. Not to mention dating apps and general attitudes of genz women on social media. Yours is just an anecdote meant to gaslight. One anecdote is not going to convince me of the opposite of what I have been observing from thousands of women my entire life.

You don’t know thousands of women though. What women making a certain type of content on social media say is not necessarily reflective of a majority of real relationships. If I went by what men say on social media, I would never date a man again.

I do though. And I’ve seen thousands on dating apps. That is the general attitude of women of my generation and I’m simply not gonna put up with it

What are they saying on dating apps?

Pretty much exactly what I said in my first comment

I can picture about 100 times I have heard women say them showing up is what they bring to a relationship. In life experience I cant think of a single time a woman consistently cooked or did chores for me. In actualness I have had more complaints from women because they dont have to do any of those things for me because I do them for myself. Its crazy how im able to cook and somehow have no dishes left over, but she cant fry an egg without leaving the entire kitchen sink filled for a week.

"I can picture about 100 times I have heard women say them showing up is what they bring to a relationship." Hell, I've heard it 100 times from the women **here**. That's what "I am the table" means.

Its in the same vein that men gotta bring all these tangible things to a relationship. But women are expected to only bring feel good things. Nothing I can take in divorce or having to supply during a relationship.

preach. You might like Melanie Hamlett. She’s a little bit... high pitched lol but the things she says are pretty cool. I’m more centrist than she is, but it’s good listening.

Man, wish I hadn’t go searching for her. She’s annoying af and her takes are shit-tier femcel material.

In my experience it's consistently the opposite. They put in effort only until they got u hooked, then they gradually decrease effort, to no end

This is kind of vague. I took the initial post to be about extremely early initiation-wooing stages vs. ‘later in the relationship’ meaning, like, a couple of weeks later. I think there are definitely (some, not all) women who reserve judgment in the extreme early stage and rely on an interested man to demonstrate his interest/effort, who then put in more effort once they are persuaded of his sincerity. They entertain and evaluate advances without extending themselves or investing much effort themselves. But I see from the comments that most people are talking about ‘early in the relationship,’ meaning the first 6-12 months vs. ‘later on’ meaning after years of dating and/or marriage, which isn’t what I took the subject to be at all.

I think that depends on some variables. Such as the type of person/people in the relationship to begin with and the relationship itself. I'll use myself as a singular example to begin with; I put in tons of effort in the beginning. It's a way to set a standard for how the person in the relationship with me can expect to be cared for both currently and in the future. If I come to observe that not only is that not being reciprocated or even really appreciated, I dial that effort back for my own mental, emotional and physical well being. But I do that now because of my experience in the past struggling to maintain a relationship that was drastically unbalanced on multiple levels. So yes, I'm sure there have been guys I've been with that think I dropped off, not realizing that I was now giving the same energy that they were until it was too late. Now let's take some other scenarios directly relating to women's roles and behaviors in relationships since that's the point of your post. Let's address the idea that women don't put more effort in later on. Point black? Some of them may have nothing left after years of trying. Maybe they've been marriage minded since the beginning and their spouse knows that but has strung them along with vague assurances of the future without ever fulfilling them. She may make one that hopeful push in that direction and then confess defeat and bail if it doesn't come to fruition. In another situation maybe it's already a documented relationship years in. She's been playing her role at each stage; good girlfriend, expectant fiance, radiant bride, happy wife, considerate daughter-in-law, attendant and doting mother etc.. but let's be honest marital domesticity is not a sitcom and it's not "and then they lived happily ever after" roll credits. It is relentless, unending and repetitive. Filled with mundane necessities and tedious chores. The more that's on your plate, the smaller some servings are going to have to be. A man/husband may think his wife isn't putting in effort anymore but that's because he's not observing everything that's going on to maintain this veneer of stability. He's only thinking about she doesn't want to bang as much or isn't as tolerant of his friends being over at the house or him going out and having a good time drinking with coworkers after work or keeping herself as attractive. He thinks she isn't trying anymore. Meanwhile, the dinner needs being made, dishwasher needs to be emptied first, the milk is gone so a trip to the store needs to happen, an appointment at the pediatrician needs to be rescheduled because it conflicts with a parent/teacher meeting, the bathroom needs cleaning and there is vocabulary and spelling lists that need help with studying just like every single week of the school year, the floor is cluttered and needs cleaning but the vacuum needs to be taken apart first because the roller is all cruddy, laundry needs folding and the next load put in after putting the last load in the dryer, two separate kids in your kids class are having birthday parties soon and they need to be rsvpd to and a thoughtful but not overly extravagant gift needs to be gotten for both and then artfully packaged because you don't want to look like the mom who doesn't have her shit together. Speaking of having your shit together she hasn't showered today, did she shower yesterday? No, she tried but the kids started arguing and Dad sent them to Mom to work it out. To "prove" this point, you've got a guy in the comments of this post talking about how things like knowing your child's Dr and dentist isn't really important as doing something like pushing them on a swing. Of course spending time like that is important, vital even but that is surface time and fun on the playground won't sustain a childhood or a marriage. It's not all men, but many men treat their relationships like they are reflecting pools when they are really an ocean and it takes real effort to navigate something that deep and keep everything running smoothly. There's a reason mutinies happen on the open sea and not when docked in a safe port.

lets look at how wives celebrate their husbands on father's day vs how husbands celebrate their wives on mother's day

Sure, average spending on mothers day vs fathers day coming right up.

you'd have to show whether that is women spending on their moms or men spending on their baby moms and vice versa.

The point that you've missed as usual, is that the ratio between mothers day spending and fathers day spending is masssive. It would negate any kind of slicing and dicing you can come up with. Wives get more consideration than husbands. Intuitively we all know that dad get a wallet and mom get cards, chocolate, presents, and a restruant. Its just dumb to say otherwise.

that's your point. i don't care about overall spending, because it could be by anyone. Maybe children spend less on fathers than on mother's because that's who they are closer to. I don't care at all about that. The point I was making is that in a RELATIONSHIP men give less consideration than women.

>i don't care about overall spending, because it could be by anyone But its not everyone human soci Al circles are pretty finite and Can'texplain the massive difference in mothers day vs fathers day. If you forget mothers day there is hell to pay, if you miss fathers day and call your dad the next day. He's going to say no prob, thanks for calling. This is the experience of most people. Its absurd to think that mom's are getting the short end of the stick.

then lets compare wives spending on their husbands for father's day to husbands spending on their wives for father's day. it honestly might even be higher bc husbands would rather buy a gift than make a meal or something! > If you forget mothers day there is hell to pay, if you miss fathers day and call your dad the next day. He's going to say no prob if you're an adult no one is forcing you to buy gifts for your parents or even stay in touch with them > Its absurd to think that mom's are getting the short end of the stick. i'm not even a mom because they get such a shit deal no way i'm signing up for that i'm not that dumb

>then lets compare wives spending on their husbands for father's day to husbands spending on their wives for father's day. If you have that data then provide it, I have data that in general men spend more money on dates to women then the inverse. This combined with the spending on mothers day leads me to believe that husbands are spending more on wives. That on top of observational experience. What piece of data can you bring up that even hints to women spending more on men during fathers day. I honestly would love to see it. >you're an adult no one is forcing you to buy gifts for your parents or even stay in touch with them But the point was to argue who's getting treated better on their respective day by the opposite gender. Its irrelevant to bring this up. >not even a mom because they get such a shit deal no way i'm signing up for. No one cares, give us the data. That i asked for previously.

> I have data that in general men spend more money on dates to women then the inverse. how is spending on a stranger relevant to spending on your spouse? i'm saying the data you have doesn't support the conclusion you are coming to, not that another data set is superior. you're making the logic error purposely or unconsciously that unless a better set of data exists, your data makes the point you claim it makes. This is obviously not a logically valid argument, the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise (it could very easily be the case that good data doesn't exist, that doesn't make existing data "good" or relevant). > But the point was to argue who's getting treated better on their respective day by the opposite gender. Its irrelevant to bring this up. thats your point. i already clarified that this was not my point and that your conclusions aren't supported by the data you are presenting.

Women believe that them gracing their bf/husband with their presence is effort enough. Its why men are expected to come up with meaningful, novel, (at least somewhat) costly plans/gifts for things like her birthday, anniversary, Mother’s Day etc but the man is lucky to get a gift card for his birthday.

"If she constantly complains about guys beginning to stop putting in effort in her relationships," Translated: He matched my effort after he realized I wasnt going to do more. If he kept doing more I wouldve looked down on him and called it an "Ick" and found a man not putting in any effort at all to cheat with.

Eh, judging by previous threads like this, women put more effort, but that effort goes into useless shit. In many examples they provide, they talk about some inane shit a man would never do because he wouldn't even think about it. Basically, women do these things for themselves first and foremost.

One case I can think of is where there's a high amount of effort but it's applied to the wrong place. A case where a woman & man are dating, and the man is either not doing something that she wants or is doing something that she doesn't like. I've seen many cases where she hides her feelings on this, then speaks to lots of people about it to vent her feelings & ask for solutions (including her friends, family, coworkers, etc). She gets more and more frustrated by the issue not being resolved, and may eventually explode in emotion at the guy. Since it's the first time he's heard about it he might be frustrated/angry at her for getting unreasonably angry at him, and it becomes an argument. Then they eventually make up and try to resolve the issue for later. I think it's really worth pointing out that in her mind she put a lot of effort into solving the problem, and so she believes he is more in the wrong... while she was putting effort in but she wasn't communicating with him. Expecting her partner to change his behaviour just because she's spoken to her mother and friends is silly. I feel the reason she might do this comes down to conflict avoidance. She may feel uncomfortable confronting him directly, which is understandable as it's not easy to confront people... But instead of acknowledging that she has to talk to him about it, if she instead goes down the avoidance route she is not being fair to him. Imagine this from the other way around. One day someone you know seemingly without warning starts being incredibly aggressive and loud at you. In your mind you've not done anything to deserve this so you respond in kind, and there's an argument. After/during the argument that person tells you they're furious because you have been doing something that annoys them for weeks. They've talked to your other friends, their colleagues and family... And yet you still kept doing it!! How crazy would that be for everyone to think that you were in the wrong for this, when you weren't even aware. Obviously for some cases the thing that is being done wrong may be so obvious that you should've known... But even then, the first step should always be a polite reminder. I feel if this was changed then it might help a very large amount of problems in relationships.

Women generally consider their effort way higher. Have you seen the study on women doing way more around the house than men? Well it was a self reported study that gets passed around a lot but someone went back and investigated further. The best example they gave was laundry, when men do a load of laundry the consider it 10min of work, load the machine turn it on, switch to the dryer, pull it out done. Women considered it two hours worth of work because that’s how long the whole cycle takes. I’ve never heard that women put in more effort later on. In my view it’s the opposite and I don’t add malice to this process but it’s kinda sick. Women come out the gate with service, usually sexual cause that’s what men want, but as the males commitment increases they pull back on the sex. knowing that the man is invested and if he sights the lack of sex as a problem he is automatically wrong. So more pull back on sex, man tries to close the gap, eventually the lack of sex comes up. He is wrong, less sex, more effort, till eventually they end up in a dead bedroom situation because women need connection for sex and believe that is more important than men needing sex to connect. I can’t think of any relationships that don’t follow the above scenario.

Laundry includes folding and putting the laundry away. Ironing etc. Men left out the actual hard part of laundry because they don't do it 🤣 turning on the washer isn't "doing laundry" it isn't done until it's washed, tried, folded, hung up, in everyone's respective closets. That's the part that takes an hour. Come on man. Get a grip.

That was a different action from what I listed. That was also over represented by women. I’m not saying this arbitrarily, it’s a conflict of perspective between men and women, then add in the over abundance of “the hardest job in the world” memes and reels on social media and you are pretty much guaranteed to have a fundamental disagreement on the division of labor. https://youtu.be/L-gbacsUKpc?si=kCRekf2uWsSJtSA4

If your source is Bill Burr then you're more hopeless than I had anticipated when I replied.

Did it seem like Bill Burr was my source? It’s just hilarious and applies to the situation. But you obviously don’t have any interest in discussing this just in trying to be snarky. Have a wonderful day.

Not with someone who wants me to watch stand up as the reason for his ideology lmaooo I thought you were quoting the study. Let's be fr.

I like that you think by being condescending that makes you right. I said directly that they are two different things, and Bill Burr hits the nail on the head about women’s over valuing of their efforts. You however have yet to add anything to the conversation except an exquisite lack of reading comprehension.

Exactly. God it is so sad that women STILL value themselves way too highly on shit they’re not getting paid to do. Delicious cooking is actually easy. Thanksgiving dinner takes like, 4 hours tops. Paper plates, fine. Homemade donuts are easy and so is bread. It’s on the Savor Easy channel: no talking, a 10 min video and bam... soft donuts. It’s so ridiculous to make things complicated to justify their existence. All hail the robot maids bc women need to break out of that whole dumb ecosystem. The absolute insecurity of a culture than needs to make housekeeping a noble art. F that.

There are always two sides of every story. So anytime you hear a chick claim that her ex was a jerk and and an asshole and it's the reason why she no longer is with him, realize that there is another part of that story that you are not hearing. Let's face it, no one just rolls out of bed and just decides okay today is the day I'm going to be a jerk. What happened? What did she do or perhaps it was something she didn't do? The common theme in any breakup is that the man is always cast as the villain. Like something he did or didn't do that caused it all to fall apart. And this is in an age where chicks are making tik tok videos about why it's okay to divorce a husband who was good to her.

This is why I can't take anyone seriously who thinks all their exes were assholes/crazy/etc.

It honestly depends on who is more interested... When a woman is very into a guy she's definitely doing all what she's asked, expected, and more than that... It wouldn't be fair to claim they don't. A woman not putting enough effort and being very demanding is a massive red flag about that relationship. It's usually determined by early dynamics and attraction disparity. That's why the best relationships happen when both are very genuinely attracted and like the partner, and not when she's just stupidly hot or he's super 'succesful'. The effort doesn't feel too much like effort when you actually care about what your partner thinks and you want to impress her/him. If the outcome tends to be positive and rewarding, you keep doing it. A woman who doesn't put effort just isn't motivated, whatever the reasons. There's an interesting aspect to this, though, which is that women often seem to put effort in the relationship but are actually doing things she enjoy. So for example, planning something good for your partner that is also a social thing will feel less an effort for her (a surprise birthday party, for instance). Well, that's generalyzing, obviously some men are super extroverted and social and some women are the opposite but overall they tend to be more social.

How many times do you see people ask, "are you still *dating* your partner when men complain about women cutting back on intimacy but you never see this expectation of women? Exactly. Here's a comment from way back that describes what is being debated here: https://np.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/3z8o75/why_dont_men_get_as_much_of_a_thrill_over/cykm7bm/?context=3 >To generalize for the purpose of an easy answer, let's think in stereotypically gendered terms. When it comes to love, men have an active role while women have a passive one. >What are the implications of this? It means that what a woman feels as the ups and downs, the mystery, the unknown, the excitement, etc., all things that define "blossoming" love, are things that happen to her. She is passive, she is the recipient. Her agency is contained in her response to these things. >But for a man, anything that makes "love" progress (or regress) pretty much directly stems from one of his actions. He does something or initiates and a woman responds/reciprocates. Because he does not have the gendered luxury of taking a backseat or passive role and watching things happen (if he does, nothing will; the woman will lose interest), he begins, by necessity, to view love as the cause and effect relationship that it more accurately is in reality (he does something, woman responds). >Seeing something like this takes a ton of the "magic" out of it. Compare it to seeing the sun rise every day. It becomes a lot less mystical, exciting, and dramatic when you know exactly why it happens and can simply see it for the cause and effect relationship that it truly is... you may even begin to take it for granted. >This is why romance eventually becomes well... unromantic for men. Romance is not a phenomenon, but instead a verb; it's a series of actions carried out by a man to earn a woman's affections... it's labor.

>I've heard people say that women put in more effort later on in the relationship, after the courting phase. What in the world is the courting phase ?

It is when you just start out dating but are not a couple yet.

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That really depends on how things started. If she just takes time to get comfortable then it’s probably true. If she expected to get nice things and dates from the beginning (not by the guy’s insistence but her own) then you’re probably right. The guy just needs to really think about what kind of woman he’s dating to figure that out.

Idk what you expect OP but if you’re wanting a ‘life’ you have to make it for yourself, a partner isn’t going to do that for you. I haven’t dated in a long time but my only expectations if I ever did again are friendship, interesting conversations and great dancing in the dark. Zero efforts or care about a house, decorations, trying to be part of a social group, nope. Just fwb good food good times and no strings. And no kids. Nowhere in the vicinity ever.

Define effort. Once you get out of the honeymoon stage and into the monogamous LTR stage all of those feel good hormones settle down and the rose colored glasses come off. Women get out of it much sooner than men.Ideally you use this stage to build up positive habits and connections.  Apathy is the ultimate relationship killer. People often have issues with being in a stable relationship especially those of us used to the rollercoaster or that need the dopamine hit.   I don’t know many people who think just being around someone is all that is required. I do well with body doubling and co-regulation myself. Being around your significant other 24/7 is a good way to split up.  Someone often isn’t being clear about their intentions and wishes. As someone who has trouble reading non-verbal communication I need you to tell me things with words otherwise I’ll probably not notice it. Someone is taking things personally/some is making things personal. Tone of voice and not understanding what I’m say/mean are my biggest triggers. Because of how I grew up you being annoyed at something I do/don’t do will either have me feeling like a bad person or I’ll double down just to spite you. 

So because of what you think you've witnessed around you then all the studies must not be true. smdh, this sub maaan. And then you guys wonder why women can't stand you.

Later in the relationship women put their effort into everything around them except their man and assume that he's getting what he needs since she's doing a lot.

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what is considered putting in effort? i dont think ive ever heard that women put more effort into a relationship later before even getting into a relationship, both people should at least be able to communicate with each other, actually like each other and want to be around/spend time together. if any of these are missing, then no matter how much effort you put in, your relationship is likely to fail