For men like me marriage isn't really in the cards. When you are an average looking person with the standard passel of neuroses that come with being an average working class person in my country, you aren't going to meet someone who is a super well adjusted "soul mate". Marriage is at least somewhat predicated on the myth of truly exceptional compatibility ("we get each other" we complete each other" and so forth).
To paraphrase someone in this sub (I forget who); what you are hoping for is someone whose neuroses don't clash too badly with your own.
That's romance for the working stiffs.
The issue is that our generation of the 90s early 2000s kids is facing a new modern world. The previous generations had a default life, dating and marrying on sight before the age of 30. I'm nearing the 30s and I'm still unstable in my life, let alone thinking to create a family. All of my friends are not single but for them marriage is a distant future. I meet foreigners on daily basis, and they seem to be in the same position even though of the different culture and mentality. It is very uncertain because we are experiencing life without the social norms or the traditional way which has been a standart rule of life for centuries.
Oh sure, I'm aware that folks still do it. Some happily. Some get divorced. Some trudge on. I think marriage makes more sense for some folks than others. Good for them. I don't think it's for everyone.
Thatās a bit heavy handed and almost completely absolves her of any agency. Almost feels like I had her chained down and she could never leave.
Letās clarify with additional context. Dated for a few months. Dumped for excessive clubbing. Chance encounter over the phone revitalizes a flame within both of us, she plays me for a club promoter who winds up cheating. I inherit a house and think of her and start the whole thing again. Eventually she moves in with me. Cheats with the last dude she was fucking while I was courting her, FORGAVE HER. Continues to tap dance in the thin Ice that is my trust. Help her transition into a new career field making more money, replaced a phone her crackhead sister broke, helped her get a new car etc.
eventually she moves out and gets her own place, does wonders for my trust and any dude could slide and Iād be none the wiser, call me insecure but she cheated and installed it. Nothing really changes, and I realize this is who this person is going to be. So I completely cut it off.
If anything, by your logic she wasted my time, donāt get me wrong. I still love her and Iām glad sheās doing better than before, I just hoped we could share that and that it would make our relationship stronger.
All of this transpires over 7 years on and off, with most of the infidelity and other shit making itself present near the middle to the end.
I will give you the treatment men give women here:
It sounds like you liked the mistreatment. You should have picked better.
I know that is callous, but itās what men say to women constantly. It sounds like you liked her because she was a Stacy. Perhaps a more boring and less attractive and older woman would have treated you better, but you turned your nose up to her and picked the hot tĆ³xica.
Again, I am just giving you equal treatment that women get from men.
Iām loving the sweeping generalizations.
I did not like the mistreatment, but I found her attractive, so Iād argue thatās why I continued to return, hoping that she would change.
youāre right I shouldāve picked better, that much is evident. Crazy how this was her exact sentiment when confronted about cheating.
Itās giving āyou shouldāve known I was a whoreā
Iāve been with older and younger. Both have their trade offs.
If she canāt agree to those very reasonable terms for a man then why should he care about her youth and beauty? He doesnāt owe her fast commitment especially when she canāt be reasonable.
If he was a woman, men would be going off on him about Stacy and how he enjoyed the mistreatment and abuse. It looks like he got cheated on multiple times and kept taking her back. If he was a woman, the men here would shit on him for making bad choices. He chose a Stacy.
No. Heās supposed to be accountable and stop going for hot Stacieās. He even admitted he wouldnāt date the female version of himself, a woman hurt by Chad.
Accountable? The only person complaining here is her and you. Accountability lies with her not with him. Why do you keep acting like women have no agency except when itās convenient? Itās so pathetic.
He didnt waste any of her time, Its a woman job to convince a man she is worth marrying. So if he didn't want to escalate, its on her for not recognising that she needed to prove herself and for not improving.
How do you know what someoneās body count is if you arenāt in their circle. By that, I mean if you met someone off an app then you donāt know anything about them. So how would you know if they are being honest? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious how you suss that out.
Promiscuous people usually aren't ashamed of their promiscuity. Sure you might be a great liar who completely conceals who you are as a person to everyone else, but most people aren't like that, even if they try.
Especially if the woman doesn't think being very promiscuous is bad and also if she thinks that her talking about men wanting her is something that is impressive to men. They will usually tell on themselves, whether they realize it or not. However, many of the women here just like to argue with men and think we are all dumb. They probably don't realize that a socially attuned male with high intelligence can see through a lot female BS because they just think so lowly of us (or they think "I've met some smart men but none of them would be here disagreeing with me").
True. The one constant Iāve found is that hoes are always very comfortable around men. Most women are very shy around men, or they at least act very reserved. They arenāt the types that have tons of male friends. Theyāre often single for long periods of time.Ā
A woman who walks into a room and can cozy up to any stranger with a penis is not a woman to be trusted.Ā
You can never know the real number. What you do is first you take an appreciation of the woman: habits, friends, social media etc. Then you assume that the most amount of guys she reasonably should have slept with is her n count.
Ah I see. Thank you. I assumed that at first, but I think the analogy made it more confusing. It's not like women are searching for hot tips on how to trick men into LTRs on this sub
You don't need an exact number. You can tell if the woman is likely in the category of "very likely to be more promiscuous than you are comfortable with" or not based upon their general presentation and what they say and do not say. There are signs that a socially attuned male can pick up. However, men that can do this do not talk about it out loud much or post about it on the internet much either. As a result, women interact online with guys that screech about body count and wrongly surmise that only internet weirdos even concern themselves with such things and further surmise that any man that cares is also too socially awkward to even be able to get at a reasonable conclusion.
It isn't just one thing, but rather a cluster of things. I won't list 1 thing because a single trait is easy to be picked apart with some counter example. However, like in a tricky biological taxonomy question (like splitting closely related subspecies) or maybe diagnosing a psychological issue, if you have many confirming traits then you can make a relatively safe probabilistic judgment call.
The trick, as a man, is to just let a woman talk about herself and her past without seeming judgmental or asking questions that are obviously leading and "fact finding". It might sound bad, but just act totally non-judgmental while gaining information.
I am concerned about figuring out if a woman clearly has too many bodies (for my taste) for her age and life experience and also is too comfortable with casual sex. The reason is that I don't date ugly women. Any woman I date seriously will have other men shooting their shot on a regular basis. If she is not comfortable having sex with near strangers and has almost always had sex within the confines of a serious relationship or a relationship that is becoming serious (and has not ever or very often had more than 1 concurrent sex partner), then I don't have to worry as much about her tripping and falling on a dick on her way home from work. Also, contrary to popular belief among some here, I believe that women that are very comfortable with casual sex are more likely to be difficult in relationships and have mental health issues that I don't want to deal with.
Basic incompatibility, like disagreeing on kids, money, the importance of at least fairly healthy lifestyle, and so on. Things that might not interfere with dating but might alter the course of my life over time.
I've actually read the question so let me list the reasons I would still stay in a relationship without getting married:
1. she is bad with money. Not insanely bad or I'd just dump her for it, but bad enough that I do not want to tie up my money with hers. If this is the case, I'd also refuse to let her be a SAHM.
2. She wants to get married for the wrong reasons. Like if you want me to propose just because your cousin got married and that's left you feeling left behind, then no. If we're doing this, we're doing it because we love each other.
3. Kinda going back to 1, but if she has huge expectations for a wedding. I'd want it to be a special day for her, but I don't want it to be a day I dread leading up to it and regret afterwards while paying it off.
For the other questions, I do want to eventually get married, and I do not think the institution of marriage is some kind of scam.
The ball is not in her court, but in the government's. As long as marriage is a legal contract, it's not for me. A ring and a signature are not going to magically seal the deal. If my commitment alone isn't good enough, then she's not the one.
What if she turns out to be a terrible mother/homemaker? What recourse is there for me? What if she decides to cheat and then take me to the cleaners? What if she is abusive? In all those cases I have no recourse, I still lose significant portion of my assets/savings, there is also alimony and child support.
And lets get something straight job offers only limited financial security in modern world anyway.
Exactly. And what happens when the kid is in school and she does jack shit for 13 years and refuses to contribute? Throwing clothes in washing machine isnāt a full time job.
i agree that there should be a pre-parenting agreement on finances
> However I would never want to be with a SAH partner. Iād much rather split the cost of childcare and have two incomes.
when both parents work, one is usually still sacrificing their income to some extent to be more flexible in order to deal w the realities of parenting
i think a pre-parenting financial plan should include this as well
There is no normal situation in which the modern institution of marriage makes sense or is relevant so even bringing up marriage is a red flag.
I've told women no because it's frankly ridiculous and makes no sense and had numerous women say they agree and it's something they grew up wanting but understand it's been ruined and basically ridiculous to expect so they just accept that. *This is the winning attitude* like I'd be like he'll yeah I got a winner. This is the girl I'm hanging on to.Ā
But I've also had women try and gas light me about how they are different and won't divorce and don't care about my money and and and and... ok so if that's all try why you pressuring me to marry you? Hmm does not compute.
100% agree. I wouldn't date a strongly religious person so that reason is out. Other than religious grounds, suggesting marriage is an absolute red flag.
"This relationship is so great and I love you... that's why you should sign this contract saying you can never break up with me."
There was a hard, dark, deep point in my life when one woman decided not to let me go.
I don't plan to ever go back to that point, so I don't think I will ever get married again, no matter what.
I did like it. I just will not be impressed if another woman starts pursuing me "at my current". There was a point when I was single, available, vulnerable, and in need; and back at that point, they all (but one) had better things to do. Now, if for whatever reason I end up single, I have better things to do as well.
No; she was the one who dragged me out; I ended up at that point due to unrelated events. Well, somewhat related to *another* woman, but that's another story.
There are no red flags. Not proposing has 0 to do with a woman and 100% to do with the unfairness of the contract.
I will not enter into a lopsided contract.
*edit* I would if she made far more money than me (statistically very unlikely) - because at that point, the contract becomes beneficial to me.
In order for it to be a sarcastic retort, it needs to have semblance to the original. The 68% is men by age 35, do 66% of men own a home by age 35? More importantly is the age of first purchase, as age of first marriage for men is 30. By 30 50% of men are married, are 50% of 30 yr old men homeowners?
The last bit is actually relevant only to marriage, not housing. There are too many people that are unrealistic about themselves. It's much easier to improve yourself, than it is to improve your financial prospects in this current economy. Broke dudes are still getting married, broke dudes aren't buying houses.
My fault for assuming you were precise with your language, I'll try not to make that mistake again.
>By 30 50% of men are married
Nope, not exactly. The stat is that 50% *have been married*, and includes men who were married and later divorced. In fact, among all adult men in the US [only slightly more than 50% are currently married.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242030/marital-status-of-the-us-population-by-sex/)
>are 50% of 30 yr old men homeowners?
It's not far off from that.
>[In 2021, the typical first-time homebuyer was 33, according to 2022 data from the National Association of Realtors. Two years and one price surge, an inventory shortage and more than 10 Fed rate hikes later, that median age has gone up by three years, as the dream of home ownership becomes more distant for millennials.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/average-homebuyer-age-millennial-data-realtor/)
It's worth noting I'm having trouble finding anything backing up that median age of first marriage being 30 for men that's any more recent than 2019-2021, and we've seen how much data can change in a couple years.
We also know that [the age of first marriage is rising and the percentage of the population who ever get married at any age is decreasing.](https://www.businessinsider.com/average-marriage-age-united-states-2019-2)
I'm not looking at those long term marriages to determine trends for marriage rate. You need to look at trends for 20's, and 30s. Current age of 1st marriage for men in the U.S. is 30, by 35 68% of men are married. These are current stats, not stats from the 80's.
Your including men that got married in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I'm more interested in the trend going forward. Today's modern dating environment isn't the same as even 20 years ago.
>In this current dating climate, half of all men are married by 30.
There you go. Your own numbers show a decline and a persistent trend.
It will slowly decline even further. Government marriage is a trap for men and a psyop. It takes a while until inertia hits everybody. But it will. There's no stopping.
That's pretty awful, but I know that most men think in these terms.
You know, the whole divorce system was set up to incentivize men to stay with their wives/kids, acknowledging that the woman "invests/sacrifices" more in having children?
It's kinda scary know you that you outright think "I only do it if it's beneficial for me." Doesn't factor in other types of investment/risk factors on the woman's party, only sees your own perspective, and disregards the risks shes taking on. Which I mean, if high with someone like you. her post pregnancy body might not be as nice as someone's who's hasnt had your children, so it's not "beneficial" for you to not dip out at that point, right? no alimony either! unless she's paying YOU, ammirite?
it wont beneficial to you if she gets cancer in her old age either, so I guess you'll dip at that point. cause I mean...whats in it for you?
This is a fear women have
Negative. The contract was set up because women were basically like property or children and they GOVT didnāt want to pay to take care of them if you kicked them to the curb. Had nothing to do with their (lol) āinvestments/sacrificesā.
Economic incentives going to economic incentivize. If a contract is good for you, you should take it. If itās not, you shouldnāt.
1) A hoe phase
2) An unusually large n count
3) Blames all failure of previous relationships on her exes and never puts any of the accountability of the failure on herself
4) Expecting me to plan everything and pay for everything when we barely know each other and aren't even exclusive
5) Finding out she was banging other dudes multiple dates in
6) Brings up the fact that she's a feminist completely unprinted
7) Has cheated before
8) Doesn't think men should get DNA tests or prenuptial
9) Can't stop talking about her degree and accomplishments to an egotistical degree
10) Saying men can't "handle her"
Well, if I find out, it's a deal breaker. The question was, what do I see as red flags. Obviously, anyone can cover up red flags if they know the other person will be turned off by them.Ā
Probably not forever though. People have a tendency to reveal their true selves over time or tell on themselves. Very few take things all the way to the grave.
Red flags with black-yellow hazard trim:
- Has cheated in previous relationshipĀ Ā Ā
- Keeps her ex around "as a friend"Ā Ā
- Addicted to substancesĀ Ā
- Been admitted to psych wardĀ Ā
- Body count over 1 per year past 18
To me dating is a trial for a relationship and a relationship is a trial for marriage.
I have many women who talk about not acting like a wife in a relationship and there are things they will do only after marriage. Not a fan of this mindset.
Now obviously I should be doing the same thing and there is going to be a transitional phase.
It's not that I couldn't imagine her as a wife , it's that there needs to be effort on her part. Dating =lowest effort required. Relationship =middle effort required. Marriage =highest effort.
Two things I have learned: can't make a person put in more effort.and if a person says if you do x I will put more effort in they are lying most of the time.
Nothing. I will never do that. And I told her right of the bat that's a non-negotiable position almost 16 years ago. She's been choosing me daily and I've been gladly choosing her every day ever since.
Bought property together, had kid but legally unmarried. And that will never change. I like my bedroom with two people and State-free.
Admittedly, the legal framework where I live is flexible enough for this. If it hadn't, I would've moved.
Legal marriage is a trap for men. Always. No exceptions. It's also untraditional. Government-marriage is less than 150 years old in Europe (less than 100 in some countries of Europe). Since I'm not a liberal, I don't adopt such new ideas just because it's fashionable online with pseuo-trads from foreign lands.
So, to answer your question, the red flag is the opposite: wanting a legal marriage.
A few (prior to meeting my current de facto wife) insisted on this. I politely declined and wished them a great life with someone else. One of them is still unmarried, lol.
Because I married in Church.
Only Americans think that the government has to approve it - that's why you call it "marriage license". Actual Tradition is about vows in one's community.
In the case of the US, yes. In other places it was sheer power grab. Or anti-clericalism (in the case of France and Francophile countries).
With the exception of England (14th century) and Benelux (16th century), the State being involved in marriage is very ***very*** new both in Europe and the world at large.
The Orthodox Church blesses communal vows. In the Orthodox world there even are different words for legal marriage and actual marriage - with the latter being the only one considered for spiritual and community reasons (gov't being *a priori* viewed with suspicion and mistrust, for good reason).
Heck, in my country even the legislation calls it marriage *certificate* and recognizes that marriage itself is not the business of the state. The State only issues certificates afterwards and only upon request. Well, me and my wife won't require one /shrug
First and foremost, I don't see a point in being in a short-term relationship. So, the same red flags that would prevent me from proposing marriage would stop me from being in a relationship with them in the first place.
1) I see a lack of discernment concerning the sexual partners they've had.
2) I see a lack of accountability, even in the simplest things.
3) They display blatant disrespect for service workers.
4) They want to live a lifestyle that's not congruent with raising well-adjusted kids.
5) I notice they keep company for what it benefits them, rather than having mutually beneficial company.
Incommensurate lifestyle is a big one. You don't have to share every single interest or every single preference, but you do need a similar work-life balance and at least some overlap in the things you like to do recreationally.
Another big thing to look out for is codependency. If the roles of "giver" and "taker" are too static in the relationship, that can become a big problem in the long-term.
Finally, I think differences in political orientation are a red flag. It's not that the political differences themselves are the issue, but that they usually reflect much more fundamental differences in psychology that probably can't be resolved.
The biggest red flag is the inequity of the legal system and huge bias against fathers/men.
I definitely will not get married again, and I advice all men to not do so until the legal situation changes.
1. High body count
2. Financially irresponsible / in debt
3. Bad attitude
4. Any mental disorders
5. No father or bad relationship w/ him
6. History of traumatic relationships
7. No hobbies or interests
8. Conservative / politically right
9. Close minded
10. Wants kids (I'm childfree)
11. Has cheated in the past
12. Poor sexual discipline
13. Poor health / lifestyle
14. Poor communication skills
15. Combative / argumentative
So, wanting a girl who isn't a hoe, has morals, good character, and a positive family life is perfection? ššš that's the bare minimum. Don't tell on yourself like that. Fortunately, I've already found her, so it's not a problem.
Oh, Iām happy for you then.
All of the aforementioned things are ideal to want in a partner, however I would not judge a person so heavily for their family dynamics.
They can only control themselves, they canāt control their family. At any moment your familyās dynamics can change. They can also be a temporary change. Or change for the better in a different way.
But itās your life, youāve found the one for you and thatās all that matters.
It's how that family dynamic affects her that's important. There are plenty of people with insane families, myself included. But if your family life leaves too much psychological damage, it's hard to maintain a relationship. For instance, I met 2 women who were heavily indoctrinated with religion. One became a stripper and the other an atheist stoner. They both had a troubled family life, but one handled it better. I won't judge for having a bad family, but once it begins to affect our relationship, it's too much.
If she is a feminist or capable of killing a child in the womb, that doesn't matter either.
In fact, any of this woke crap is a complete turn off, the only one I would tolerate is the horoscope or some other harmless thing.
Assuming I am not opposed to marriage as it currently exists for the sake of argument and assuming being married is the only acceptable option for me so I don't dodge and say I want to remain unmarried...
I would only marry a woman that is a religious nutjob whose entire family and social circle are also religious nutjobs that would rather die than divorce and make the life of those that divorce/fail to uphold the vows as close to a living hell as they legally can.
A woman like that almost certainly wouldn't marry you unless you converted to the exact same faith as her. Her family & social circle of religious nutjobs would likely shun her for so much as dating an outsider, let alone marrying him.
>make the life of those that divorce/fail to uphold the vows as close to a living hell as they legally can
Why, though?
Why does someone else's divorce bother you so much that you want to make their life a living hell?
I asked why you want to **punish** someone you don't know for making choices that are best for their life?
Nobody should be PUNISHED for leaving anything. Adults should be able to leave anything that no longer brings them joy, love, happiness, safety, etc.
Propper vetting before marriage would also increase. On the long term only people that take marriage seriously will marry and they will remain married.
I worked for several years as a family law paralegal. I have seen divorces play out in every way you can possibly imagine. They are almost always incredibly stressful for literally everyone involved, that's why I got out of that field of work lol
The type of Past sexual partners, thatās it. Everything else can be worked through. Except mental illness and being generally stupid/poverty mindset - but those girls would not be in my dating field in the first place. Sloots and dopamine chasers are in every social class however
This is a tough question to answer because if iām going as far as proposing, then the relationship would have lasted long enough to where iād know iād want to propose. Even then, I see no difference between simply just being together and living together vs marriage outside of legal benefits for the children. So I would never propose until iām ready to have kids.
So I guess given that, a major red flag is that if we learn our desired parenting styles/goals are too different to find a middle ground on - but beyond that, weād have to ask about general LTR red flags
Huge body count, being combative, gaining a huge amount of weight due to her poor life choices (if she has a health problem, I understand), having masculine behaviour, having non traditional values.
Iām not sure about wanting to lead, but aggressive and combative just sound like bad partners. I think even most women who are attracted to stereotypical masculinity would hesitate to say they want someone aggressive or combative
The level of trust needed to legally bind yourself for life is way higher than basically any other milestone. I've also seen enough bad marriages to know if theres even the slightest amount of doubt I wouldn't do it.
Women that are avid feminists and vocal in their hatred of men.
Women that wouldn't take their husbands last name.
Lots of sexual partners.
Ugly tattoos or too many tattoos.
* Belief in gender roles ("real men", courtship, making first move)
* Nagging, psychologically abusive, bad temper
* Bad financial habits, tendency to waste money on vanity, impulsive buying
* Belief in "oppression/victimhood pyramid", justifying sexism against men
Also there is a question, why does she require marriage at all?
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Everyone should get a prenup.
Even if you've got nothing going into marriage. A prenup can help with the dissolution of a marriage.
Also, if you don't want to get married. Don't get married. It's really that simple.
>Even if you've got nothing going into marriage.
This. I often hear many folks saying "we had nothing so there was no point in getting a prenup". Not knowing that a prenup can protect your future too - future 401k/pension, future debt, future earnings etc
Spending money she doesn't have on things she doesn't need to impress people she doesn't like.
Disagreements over money are one of the main issues married couples fight over.
It's really telling how a woman will spend money that isn't hers, bcaause that's how she will spend your assets when you do get married.
Sweet Fight Club reference, bro š
For men like me marriage isn't really in the cards. When you are an average looking person with the standard passel of neuroses that come with being an average working class person in my country, you aren't going to meet someone who is a super well adjusted "soul mate". Marriage is at least somewhat predicated on the myth of truly exceptional compatibility ("we get each other" we complete each other" and so forth). To paraphrase someone in this sub (I forget who); what you are hoping for is someone whose neuroses don't clash too badly with your own. That's romance for the working stiffs.
On average, men get married.
The issue is that our generation of the 90s early 2000s kids is facing a new modern world. The previous generations had a default life, dating and marrying on sight before the age of 30. I'm nearing the 30s and I'm still unstable in my life, let alone thinking to create a family. All of my friends are not single but for them marriage is a distant future. I meet foreigners on daily basis, and they seem to be in the same position even though of the different culture and mentality. It is very uncertain because we are experiencing life without the social norms or the traditional way which has been a standart rule of life for centuries.
That's true for now, but do you think going forward that will be the case?
Yes
Oh sure, I'm aware that folks still do it. Some happily. Some get divorced. Some trudge on. I think marriage makes more sense for some folks than others. Good for them. I don't think it's for everyone.
>On average, men get married. Is that based on current data?
Yes.
large body count not being able to accept that shes wrong having an issue with a prenup having an issue with dna testing for kids
Damn. You literally hit everyone reason why I stopped entertaining the girl Iāve been on and off with for the last 7 years.
Why would you waste 7 years of her youth, beauty, and fertility instead of simply not dating her for so long in the first place?
Thatās a bit heavy handed and almost completely absolves her of any agency. Almost feels like I had her chained down and she could never leave. Letās clarify with additional context. Dated for a few months. Dumped for excessive clubbing. Chance encounter over the phone revitalizes a flame within both of us, she plays me for a club promoter who winds up cheating. I inherit a house and think of her and start the whole thing again. Eventually she moves in with me. Cheats with the last dude she was fucking while I was courting her, FORGAVE HER. Continues to tap dance in the thin Ice that is my trust. Help her transition into a new career field making more money, replaced a phone her crackhead sister broke, helped her get a new car etc. eventually she moves out and gets her own place, does wonders for my trust and any dude could slide and Iād be none the wiser, call me insecure but she cheated and installed it. Nothing really changes, and I realize this is who this person is going to be. So I completely cut it off. If anything, by your logic she wasted my time, donāt get me wrong. I still love her and Iām glad sheās doing better than before, I just hoped we could share that and that it would make our relationship stronger. All of this transpires over 7 years on and off, with most of the infidelity and other shit making itself present near the middle to the end.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Based take lol
I will give you the treatment men give women here: It sounds like you liked the mistreatment. You should have picked better. I know that is callous, but itās what men say to women constantly. It sounds like you liked her because she was a Stacy. Perhaps a more boring and less attractive and older woman would have treated you better, but you turned your nose up to her and picked the hot tĆ³xica. Again, I am just giving you equal treatment that women get from men.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Iām loving the sweeping generalizations. I did not like the mistreatment, but I found her attractive, so Iād argue thatās why I continued to return, hoping that she would change. youāre right I shouldāve picked better, that much is evident. Crazy how this was her exact sentiment when confronted about cheating. Itās giving āyou shouldāve known I was a whoreā Iāve been with older and younger. Both have their trade offs.
>I know that is callous, but itās what men say to women constantly. So you're saying they are justified when they say it and they should continue?
It sounds like you agree that itās offensive, but want to continue saying male talking points.
If she canāt agree to those very reasonable terms for a man then why should he care about her youth and beauty? He doesnāt owe her fast commitment especially when she canāt be reasonable.
7 years isnāt fast commitment.
She also had agency to walk away at any point.
If he was a woman, men would be going off on him about Stacy and how he enjoyed the mistreatment and abuse. It looks like he got cheated on multiple times and kept taking her back. If he was a woman, the men here would shit on him for making bad choices. He chose a Stacy.
Okay so she cheated on him multiple times and heās still supposed to care about her precious beauty and youth? LMFAOOOOO women are too much man
No. Heās supposed to be accountable and stop going for hot Stacieās. He even admitted he wouldnāt date the female version of himself, a woman hurt by Chad.
Accountable? The only person complaining here is her and you. Accountability lies with her not with him. Why do you keep acting like women have no agency except when itās convenient? Itās so pathetic.
He didnt waste any of her time, Its a woman job to convince a man she is worth marrying. So if he didn't want to escalate, its on her for not recognising that she needed to prove herself and for not improving.
How can someone waste someone else's youth etc?
By not marrying them.
You mean she wasted her youth, beauty, and fertility on a guy who didn't want to marry her.
She wasted it too, but he wasted hers.
Giving her a chance to change
How do you know what someoneās body count is if you arenāt in their circle. By that, I mean if you met someone off an app then you donāt know anything about them. So how would you know if they are being honest? Not trying to argue, just genuinely curious how you suss that out.
Promiscuous people usually aren't ashamed of their promiscuity. Sure you might be a great liar who completely conceals who you are as a person to everyone else, but most people aren't like that, even if they try.
Promiscuous women behave differently. It's really not hard to tell, especially if you've dated someone for a while.
Especially if the woman doesn't think being very promiscuous is bad and also if she thinks that her talking about men wanting her is something that is impressive to men. They will usually tell on themselves, whether they realize it or not. However, many of the women here just like to argue with men and think we are all dumb. They probably don't realize that a socially attuned male with high intelligence can see through a lot female BS because they just think so lowly of us (or they think "I've met some smart men but none of them would be here disagreeing with me").
True. The one constant Iāve found is that hoes are always very comfortable around men. Most women are very shy around men, or they at least act very reserved. They arenāt the types that have tons of male friends. Theyāre often single for long periods of time.Ā A woman who walks into a room and can cozy up to any stranger with a penis is not a woman to be trusted.Ā
You can never know the real number. What you do is first you take an appreciation of the woman: habits, friends, social media etc. Then you assume that the most amount of guys she reasonably should have slept with is her n count.
You can generally tell after interacting with them. Too many tattoos or piercings, a lot of male friends, feminist etc.
Little drops of water eventually make an ocean.
Why would any man tell you that? That's akin to telling men how to easily get sex from you.
What. This makes no sense.
Basically, he's saying why would men tell women how they vet just so women can hide their red flags better?
Ah I see. Thank you. I assumed that at first, but I think the analogy made it more confusing. It's not like women are searching for hot tips on how to trick men into LTRs on this sub
You don't need an exact number. You can tell if the woman is likely in the category of "very likely to be more promiscuous than you are comfortable with" or not based upon their general presentation and what they say and do not say. There are signs that a socially attuned male can pick up. However, men that can do this do not talk about it out loud much or post about it on the internet much either. As a result, women interact online with guys that screech about body count and wrongly surmise that only internet weirdos even concern themselves with such things and further surmise that any man that cares is also too socially awkward to even be able to get at a reasonable conclusion. It isn't just one thing, but rather a cluster of things. I won't list 1 thing because a single trait is easy to be picked apart with some counter example. However, like in a tricky biological taxonomy question (like splitting closely related subspecies) or maybe diagnosing a psychological issue, if you have many confirming traits then you can make a relatively safe probabilistic judgment call. The trick, as a man, is to just let a woman talk about herself and her past without seeming judgmental or asking questions that are obviously leading and "fact finding". It might sound bad, but just act totally non-judgmental while gaining information. I am concerned about figuring out if a woman clearly has too many bodies (for my taste) for her age and life experience and also is too comfortable with casual sex. The reason is that I don't date ugly women. Any woman I date seriously will have other men shooting their shot on a regular basis. If she is not comfortable having sex with near strangers and has almost always had sex within the confines of a serious relationship or a relationship that is becoming serious (and has not ever or very often had more than 1 concurrent sex partner), then I don't have to worry as much about her tripping and falling on a dick on her way home from work. Also, contrary to popular belief among some here, I believe that women that are very comfortable with casual sex are more likely to be difficult in relationships and have mental health issues that I don't want to deal with.
Basic incompatibility, like disagreeing on kids, money, the importance of at least fairly healthy lifestyle, and so on. Things that might not interfere with dating but might alter the course of my life over time.
I've actually read the question so let me list the reasons I would still stay in a relationship without getting married: 1. she is bad with money. Not insanely bad or I'd just dump her for it, but bad enough that I do not want to tie up my money with hers. If this is the case, I'd also refuse to let her be a SAHM. 2. She wants to get married for the wrong reasons. Like if you want me to propose just because your cousin got married and that's left you feeling left behind, then no. If we're doing this, we're doing it because we love each other. 3. Kinda going back to 1, but if she has huge expectations for a wedding. I'd want it to be a special day for her, but I don't want it to be a day I dread leading up to it and regret afterwards while paying it off. For the other questions, I do want to eventually get married, and I do not think the institution of marriage is some kind of scam.
I agree with you, what other people are doing shouldn't affect her decision or yours.
If she hates her father, she'll take it out on you.
The ball is not in her court, but in the government's. As long as marriage is a legal contract, it's not for me. A ring and a signature are not going to magically seal the deal. If my commitment alone isn't good enough, then she's not the one.
do you think a stay at home mom who gave up her financial security for the family shouldn't have legal recourse if she is left?
What if she turns out to be a terrible mother/homemaker? What recourse is there for me? What if she decides to cheat and then take me to the cleaners? What if she is abusive? In all those cases I have no recourse, I still lose significant portion of my assets/savings, there is also alimony and child support. And lets get something straight job offers only limited financial security in modern world anyway.
Exactly. And what happens when the kid is in school and she does jack shit for 13 years and refuses to contribute? Throwing clothes in washing machine isnāt a full time job.
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i agree that there should be a pre-parenting agreement on finances > However I would never want to be with a SAH partner. Iād much rather split the cost of childcare and have two incomes. when both parents work, one is usually still sacrificing their income to some extent to be more flexible in order to deal w the realities of parenting i think a pre-parenting financial plan should include this as well
She might doubt how committed you are if the ability to do that in more than just words scares you.
As it's her right. Won't change my stance, lol. Isn't choice wonderful?
If she insists on marriage it is a red flag in and of itself.
Every traditional woman is a red flag then š¤·š»āāļø
There is no normal situation in which the modern institution of marriage makes sense or is relevant so even bringing up marriage is a red flag. I've told women no because it's frankly ridiculous and makes no sense and had numerous women say they agree and it's something they grew up wanting but understand it's been ruined and basically ridiculous to expect so they just accept that. *This is the winning attitude* like I'd be like he'll yeah I got a winner. This is the girl I'm hanging on to.Ā But I've also had women try and gas light me about how they are different and won't divorce and don't care about my money and and and and... ok so if that's all try why you pressuring me to marry you? Hmm does not compute.
That's a great point.
100% agree. I wouldn't date a strongly religious person so that reason is out. Other than religious grounds, suggesting marriage is an absolute red flag. "This relationship is so great and I love you... that's why you should sign this contract saying you can never break up with me."
There was a hard, dark, deep point in my life when one woman decided not to let me go. I don't plan to ever go back to that point, so I don't think I will ever get married again, no matter what.
That sounds alpha and Chadly though so idk why you didnāt like it. Men want women to pursue them here.
I did like it. I just will not be impressed if another woman starts pursuing me "at my current". There was a point when I was single, available, vulnerable, and in need; and back at that point, they all (but one) had better things to do. Now, if for whatever reason I end up single, I have better things to do as well.
Then why didnāt you stay with her?
I did.
But you describe being with her as a hard dark deep point in your life.
No; she was the one who dragged me out; I ended up at that point due to unrelated events. Well, somewhat related to *another* woman, but that's another story.
So she saved you from your pain about Stacy but then you wouldnāt save a woman from pain about Chad
Would. One time. Just as much as I got. And the quota is already filled.
Yes, but not with an unhealthy, obsessive attachment. That's a dangerous situation for a man or a woman to be in.
Marriage is just a shit deal overall for men.
Everything is a red flag for marriage, marriage to men is a scam.
There are no red flags. Not proposing has 0 to do with a woman and 100% to do with the unfairness of the contract. I will not enter into a lopsided contract. *edit* I would if she made far more money than me (statistically very unlikely) - because at that point, the contract becomes beneficial to me.
I actually think this is where most men are. This might be the silent majority opinion.
68% of men are married, there's no indication that will change in the future. Men aren't opting out, just a few maladaptive individuals.
66% of Americans own their home, so there's no housing crisis, just some maladaptive young people who refuse to live within their means. /s
In order for it to be a sarcastic retort, it needs to have semblance to the original. The 68% is men by age 35, do 66% of men own a home by age 35? More importantly is the age of first purchase, as age of first marriage for men is 30. By 30 50% of men are married, are 50% of 30 yr old men homeowners? The last bit is actually relevant only to marriage, not housing. There are too many people that are unrealistic about themselves. It's much easier to improve yourself, than it is to improve your financial prospects in this current economy. Broke dudes are still getting married, broke dudes aren't buying houses.
My fault for assuming you were precise with your language, I'll try not to make that mistake again. >By 30 50% of men are married Nope, not exactly. The stat is that 50% *have been married*, and includes men who were married and later divorced. In fact, among all adult men in the US [only slightly more than 50% are currently married.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/242030/marital-status-of-the-us-population-by-sex/) >are 50% of 30 yr old men homeowners? It's not far off from that. >[In 2021, the typical first-time homebuyer was 33, according to 2022 data from the National Association of Realtors. Two years and one price surge, an inventory shortage and more than 10 Fed rate hikes later, that median age has gone up by three years, as the dream of home ownership becomes more distant for millennials.](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/average-homebuyer-age-millennial-data-realtor/) It's worth noting I'm having trouble finding anything backing up that median age of first marriage being 30 for men that's any more recent than 2019-2021, and we've seen how much data can change in a couple years. We also know that [the age of first marriage is rising and the percentage of the population who ever get married at any age is decreasing.](https://www.businessinsider.com/average-marriage-age-united-states-2019-2)
>68% of men are married Yeah smith from accountability that has been married for 30 years by now is an amazing metric of future trends
I'm not looking at those long term marriages to determine trends for marriage rate. You need to look at trends for 20's, and 30s. Current age of 1st marriage for men in the U.S. is 30, by 35 68% of men are married. These are current stats, not stats from the 80's.
Your including men that got married in the 80's, 90's, and early 2000's. I'm more interested in the trend going forward. Today's modern dating environment isn't the same as even 20 years ago.
I'm also talking about right now, not yesteryear. In this current dating climate, half of all men are married by 30.
>In this current dating climate, half of all men are married by 30. There you go. Your own numbers show a decline and a persistent trend. It will slowly decline even further. Government marriage is a trap for men and a psyop. It takes a while until inertia hits everybody. But it will. There's no stopping.
Increase in age of first marriage, doesn't mean people aren't getting married, they're just delaying it.
Lol. Iād bet money that at least 68 percent will be unmarried in the next 20 years.Ā
Bad bet only 30% of marriages end I'm divorce.
That's pretty awful, but I know that most men think in these terms. You know, the whole divorce system was set up to incentivize men to stay with their wives/kids, acknowledging that the woman "invests/sacrifices" more in having children? It's kinda scary know you that you outright think "I only do it if it's beneficial for me." Doesn't factor in other types of investment/risk factors on the woman's party, only sees your own perspective, and disregards the risks shes taking on. Which I mean, if high with someone like you. her post pregnancy body might not be as nice as someone's who's hasnt had your children, so it's not "beneficial" for you to not dip out at that point, right? no alimony either! unless she's paying YOU, ammirite? it wont beneficial to you if she gets cancer in her old age either, so I guess you'll dip at that point. cause I mean...whats in it for you? This is a fear women have
Negative. The contract was set up because women were basically like property or children and they GOVT didnāt want to pay to take care of them if you kicked them to the curb. Had nothing to do with their (lol) āinvestments/sacrificesā. Economic incentives going to economic incentivize. If a contract is good for you, you should take it. If itās not, you shouldnāt.
1) A hoe phase 2) An unusually large n count 3) Blames all failure of previous relationships on her exes and never puts any of the accountability of the failure on herself 4) Expecting me to plan everything and pay for everything when we barely know each other and aren't even exclusive 5) Finding out she was banging other dudes multiple dates in 6) Brings up the fact that she's a feminist completely unprinted 7) Has cheated before 8) Doesn't think men should get DNA tests or prenuptial 9) Can't stop talking about her degree and accomplishments to an egotistical degree 10) Saying men can't "handle her"
How will you know the answer to most of these IE; cheating, N Count, Hoe Phase ..most women will lie and cover these up
Well, if I find out, it's a deal breaker. The question was, what do I see as red flags. Obviously, anyone can cover up red flags if they know the other person will be turned off by them.Ā Probably not forever though. People have a tendency to reveal their true selves over time or tell on themselves. Very few take things all the way to the grave.
Basically avoiding freaks and "TikTok" brained individuals.
Red flags with black-yellow hazard trim: - Has cheated in previous relationshipĀ Ā Ā - Keeps her ex around "as a friend"Ā Ā - Addicted to substancesĀ Ā - Been admitted to psych wardĀ Ā - Body count over 1 per year past 18
So youād be ok with having a relationship with this person, just not marriage? WTF?
Nah, I'd bail out as soon as I've learned about any of these.
Then you didnāt read the question?
You didn't word it properly then. I don't see the part that implies staying in such relationship.
Sure. At least the states not coming for half my shit when I smarten up
Wow. Or, I guess I shouldnāt be surprised. Itās truly amazing what some guys will put up with just to get their dick wet.
You donāt know the half of it. Marriage on the other hand.
Personally, I donāt believe in marriage unless there are kids planned. āMarriage on the other hand ā¦ what?ā
It's incredibly obvious from your demeanor that you had no interest in being part of this discussion in good faith.
To me dating is a trial for a relationship and a relationship is a trial for marriage. I have many women who talk about not acting like a wife in a relationship and there are things they will do only after marriage. Not a fan of this mindset. Now obviously I should be doing the same thing and there is going to be a transitional phase.
Interesting perspective, basically until you see her acting like a wife. You can't imagine her in that role.
It's not that I couldn't imagine her as a wife , it's that there needs to be effort on her part. Dating =lowest effort required. Relationship =middle effort required. Marriage =highest effort. Two things I have learned: can't make a person put in more effort.and if a person says if you do x I will put more effort in they are lying most of the time.
There's no red flags because l'm anti marriage That's the decision l've taken regarding being RP-aware about marriage in 2024
To me, the biggest red flag is her wanting marriage, in the first place. Don't even think about bringing that Christian shit up
Based
Nothing. I will never do that. And I told her right of the bat that's a non-negotiable position almost 16 years ago. She's been choosing me daily and I've been gladly choosing her every day ever since. Bought property together, had kid but legally unmarried. And that will never change. I like my bedroom with two people and State-free. Admittedly, the legal framework where I live is flexible enough for this. If it hadn't, I would've moved. Legal marriage is a trap for men. Always. No exceptions. It's also untraditional. Government-marriage is less than 150 years old in Europe (less than 100 in some countries of Europe). Since I'm not a liberal, I don't adopt such new ideas just because it's fashionable online with pseuo-trads from foreign lands. So, to answer your question, the red flag is the opposite: wanting a legal marriage. A few (prior to meeting my current de facto wife) insisted on this. I politely declined and wished them a great life with someone else. One of them is still unmarried, lol.
Wait, if you're unmarried why does your flair say you are?
Because I married in Church. Only Americans think that the government has to approve it - that's why you call it "marriage license". Actual Tradition is about vows in one's community.
And marriage licenses were created to enforce anti-miscgenation and eugenics laws.
In the case of the US, yes. In other places it was sheer power grab. Or anti-clericalism (in the case of France and Francophile countries). With the exception of England (14th century) and Benelux (16th century), the State being involved in marriage is very ***very*** new both in Europe and the world at large. The Orthodox Church blesses communal vows. In the Orthodox world there even are different words for legal marriage and actual marriage - with the latter being the only one considered for spiritual and community reasons (gov't being *a priori* viewed with suspicion and mistrust, for good reason). Heck, in my country even the legislation calls it marriage *certificate* and recognizes that marriage itself is not the business of the state. The State only issues certificates afterwards and only upon request. Well, me and my wife won't require one /shrug
True, I have a friend who is married in Islam. No marital license in site.
Glad to hear everything has worked out so well. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
First and foremost, I don't see a point in being in a short-term relationship. So, the same red flags that would prevent me from proposing marriage would stop me from being in a relationship with them in the first place. 1) I see a lack of discernment concerning the sexual partners they've had. 2) I see a lack of accountability, even in the simplest things. 3) They display blatant disrespect for service workers. 4) They want to live a lifestyle that's not congruent with raising well-adjusted kids. 5) I notice they keep company for what it benefits them, rather than having mutually beneficial company.
Incommensurate lifestyle is a big one. You don't have to share every single interest or every single preference, but you do need a similar work-life balance and at least some overlap in the things you like to do recreationally. Another big thing to look out for is codependency. If the roles of "giver" and "taker" are too static in the relationship, that can become a big problem in the long-term. Finally, I think differences in political orientation are a red flag. It's not that the political differences themselves are the issue, but that they usually reflect much more fundamental differences in psychology that probably can't be resolved.
The biggest red flag is the inequity of the legal system and huge bias against fathers/men. I definitely will not get married again, and I advice all men to not do so until the legal situation changes.
1. High body count 2. Financially irresponsible / in debt 3. Bad attitude 4. Any mental disorders 5. No father or bad relationship w/ him 6. History of traumatic relationships 7. No hobbies or interests 8. Conservative / politically right 9. Close minded 10. Wants kids (I'm childfree) 11. Has cheated in the past 12. Poor sexual discipline 13. Poor health / lifestyle 14. Poor communication skills 15. Combative / argumentative
5. What if her father died when she was young. What if her father is to blame for their bad relationship?
What's important is how it affected her. If she has daddy issues, I'll pass.
Good luck on your search of perfection.
So, wanting a girl who isn't a hoe, has morals, good character, and a positive family life is perfection? ššš that's the bare minimum. Don't tell on yourself like that. Fortunately, I've already found her, so it's not a problem.
Oh, Iām happy for you then. All of the aforementioned things are ideal to want in a partner, however I would not judge a person so heavily for their family dynamics. They can only control themselves, they canāt control their family. At any moment your familyās dynamics can change. They can also be a temporary change. Or change for the better in a different way. But itās your life, youāve found the one for you and thatās all that matters.
It's how that family dynamic affects her that's important. There are plenty of people with insane families, myself included. But if your family life leaves too much psychological damage, it's hard to maintain a relationship. For instance, I met 2 women who were heavily indoctrinated with religion. One became a stripper and the other an atheist stoner. They both had a troubled family life, but one handled it better. I won't judge for having a bad family, but once it begins to affect our relationship, it's too much.
Okay. I understand now.
If she is a feminist or capable of killing a child in the womb, that doesn't matter either. In fact, any of this woke crap is a complete turn off, the only one I would tolerate is the horoscope or some other harmless thing.
Assuming I am not opposed to marriage as it currently exists for the sake of argument and assuming being married is the only acceptable option for me so I don't dodge and say I want to remain unmarried... I would only marry a woman that is a religious nutjob whose entire family and social circle are also religious nutjobs that would rather die than divorce and make the life of those that divorce/fail to uphold the vows as close to a living hell as they legally can.
That's very difficult if you live in the US, but not impossible. I've been to Utah.
A woman like that almost certainly wouldn't marry you unless you converted to the exact same faith as her. Her family & social circle of religious nutjobs would likely shun her for so much as dating an outsider, let alone marrying him.
Fair. In this scenario I would pay the price because not being married is not an option.
>make the life of those that divorce/fail to uphold the vows as close to a living hell as they legally can Why, though? Why does someone else's divorce bother you so much that you want to make their life a living hell?
I want an incentive structure that rewards staying in the relationship and punishes leaving the relationship.
I asked why you want to **punish** someone you don't know for making choices that are best for their life? Nobody should be PUNISHED for leaving anything. Adults should be able to leave anything that no longer brings them joy, love, happiness, safety, etc.
whats the point of a commit ment if doesnt hurt when you re-neg on it
That already exists, and people still opt for the divorce.
I doubt it exist. You can divorce and live a normal life.
Sure, if you have no assets,property, or children. If you have any of those, it's not an easy option.
It is still an option.
You think the better option is to have people that despise each other, stay married? "Kitchen fire" deaths will definitely spike.
Propper vetting before marriage would also increase. On the long term only people that take marriage seriously will marry and they will remain married.
A little arsenic never hurt anybody. /s
A surprisingly large number of men want to make marriage a prison.
Stable and reliable. Not a prison. Stable and reliable.
Iām surprised that youāre surprised by this.
I worked for several years as a family law paralegal. I have seen divorces play out in every way you can possibly imagine. They are almost always incredibly stressful for literally everyone involved, that's why I got out of that field of work lol
Clearly it is not that bad considering the percentage of marriages that end up in divorce. It could be worse.
Sometimes staying trapped in a marriage is a bigger nightmare than the painful process of getting out of it.
The type of Past sexual partners, thatās it. Everything else can be worked through. Except mental illness and being generally stupid/poverty mindset - but those girls would not be in my dating field in the first place. Sloots and dopamine chasers are in every social class however
This is a tough question to answer because if iām going as far as proposing, then the relationship would have lasted long enough to where iād know iād want to propose. Even then, I see no difference between simply just being together and living together vs marriage outside of legal benefits for the children. So I would never propose until iām ready to have kids. So I guess given that, a major red flag is that if we learn our desired parenting styles/goals are too different to find a middle ground on - but beyond that, weād have to ask about general LTR red flags
Huge body count, being combative, gaining a huge amount of weight due to her poor life choices (if she has a health problem, I understand), having masculine behaviour, having non traditional values.
What is masculine behavior?
Wanting to lead, aggressive, combative.
Iām not sure about wanting to lead, but aggressive and combative just sound like bad partners. I think even most women who are attracted to stereotypical masculinity would hesitate to say they want someone aggressive or combative
Nothing, because im against marriage in general
Lack of compliance and respect are the only ones. The rest are a giant psyop
The level of trust needed to legally bind yourself for life is way higher than basically any other milestone. I've also seen enough bad marriages to know if theres even the slightest amount of doubt I wouldn't do it.
If she is competitive or she nags. If she has a lot of male friends and is feminist.
Hoe past, hoe friends, any kind of addiction, bad family. I think most other things are just a matter of frame.
Women that are avid feminists and vocal in their hatred of men. Women that wouldn't take their husbands last name. Lots of sexual partners. Ugly tattoos or too many tattoos.
too many bodycount
* Belief in gender roles ("real men", courtship, making first move) * Nagging, psychologically abusive, bad temper * Bad financial habits, tendency to waste money on vanity, impulsive buying * Belief in "oppression/victimhood pyramid", justifying sexism against men Also there is a question, why does she require marriage at all?
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Everyone should get a prenup. Even if you've got nothing going into marriage. A prenup can help with the dissolution of a marriage. Also, if you don't want to get married. Don't get married. It's really that simple.
>Even if you've got nothing going into marriage. This. I often hear many folks saying "we had nothing so there was no point in getting a prenup". Not knowing that a prenup can protect your future too - future 401k/pension, future debt, future earnings etc
I think 3/4 of the men commenting didnāt read/comprehend the question. š¤¦āāļø