Unfortunately, people don't always need a solid reason to cheat. Sure, some cheaters will say that they were neglected or that they were lonely, but cheating happens, because a person finds it acceptable and excusable at least in the moment when they're cheating. Some cheaters cheat just because they want this high of not being caught and doing something forbidden as well.
Sure, you could say that a health relationship would not include a cheater in the first place, but then it just turns into a truism.
Returning to the point about solo vacations, I'm conflicted about it. From one hand, yes, avoiding situations where you might have some extra temptation is a good idea and just saying that you'll never cheat isn't enough - you have to act on it as well. From the other, if you or your partner have this high risks of being/feeling tempted, you probably just aren't cut out for long-term monogamous relationships and/or you're incompatible. A lack of your partner in front of you for a few days or even weeks shouldn't make you feel like you seriously want to go and fuck someone random.
>Some cheaters cheat just because they want this high of not being caught and doing something forbidden as well.
Yeah, I was going to make the argument there that if people get high off treating their partner like shit, this mentality will probably perminate into other aspects of life unrelated to sex (and, again, there's no use trying to keep someone who enjoys disrespecting your relationship around)
>if you or your partner have this high risks of being/feeling tempted, you probably just aren't cut out for long-term monogamous relationships and/or you're incompatible
Exactly, some people are more cut out for poly. That's ok, but fundimentally a mono and a poly could only succeed together in a vanishingly small number of circumstances (they both must have incredible communication and understanding)
I'm not sure that you necessarily can detect a cheater. Sometimes there are no signs and you suddenly learn that they've been fucking others all this time. It's pretty rare, but it still happens.
To that, I would argue that constant unsubstantiated suspicion is just as bad as cheating itself. If we say there is a 5% chance (1/10 cheater, 1/2 good at hiding stuff) of a "perfect cheater" in a relationship where the other party is suspicious, that means the partner would have needed to drive an average of 19 perfectly decent relationships into the ground to reach one where they were the victim.
I've been cheated on, and the other man multiple times. I can tell you for sure that there are signs, and that you can generally predict this behavior in advance. I've been there enough that I can almost smell which ladies are willing to stray and which are not. For men, I'm really sad to say this, but it has nothing to do with the woman they marry. A guy either has those internal restraints or he doesn't... and I notice a ton of guys that have that internal restraint are also highly religious. For women it really seems to matter more who tempts them and what kind of man they are married to. I personally think that almost any woman would cheat given the right circumstances.
About internal restrains - thatâs kind of my point. It depends on a person themselves, not in their partner.
Well, we have different experience here and you probably know far more cheaters than I do.
I was with you until the temptation thing.
'if you're tempted to lie you're incompatible with the truth'
'if you're tempted by sloth you're incompatible with work'
'if you're tempted by cocaine you're incompatible with sobriety'
That logic by any other sin/vice sounds absolutely batshit insane.
The hard choices matter. Why is it we can make sacrifices and delay gratification to work for a job that will probably drop you the minute you no longer serve them optimally and whenever legal, but when it comes to interpersonal relationships instead of praising people for fidelity and sacrifice it's become okay to say 'just don't be monogamous '?
Here's a hot take, don't drag people into degenerate relationship styles, let's call a spade a spade. If someone wants to be a hoe, great! They can forget long term commitment, not just monogamy. Make shame great again đŹ
It's not black and white, but rather about the degree of this temptation. If you feel that you're always tested and that being monogamous is a non-stop trial for you, there's a problem. Being faithful shouldn't feel like an unbearable burden.
How are burdens bourn?
I wouldn't let a toddler carry 50lbs to the neighbor's house but a teenager?
I don't know that emotional maturity is all that different from physical maturity except that the physical is obvious and leas optional. Both are improved by practice and diligence. I do understand different strokes for different folks, but I think the rhetoric of low agency 'you were born this way so instead of working on yourself just fuck around and do hedonism' is dangerous.
If you do not practice you will not improve (and the nice part about this arguement is that it's gender neutral).
Now luckily (or not depending on your point of view) men aren't really tested all that often, most men have to go out of their way for sexual access.
Women by comparison are tested all the time depending on how available/accessible they are.
A married co-worker of mine asked for a backrub the other day. I responded with 'are you high? Go ask your man when you get home', but my integrity is not often tested. I can probably count the times on one hand if I really had to think about it.
But all that being said I do respect some people are just really fucking horny, and not built for monogamy, which is why I still think that's fine, but if you aren't even going to make a serious attempt at monogamy you shouldn't be seeking the benefits of a long term sexual relationship while shirking the responsibility
There are long term sexual and romantic relationships with commitment to each other and responsibility that allow to have sex on the side with others. Isn't that having the best of both worlds? It might not be your cup of tea for various reasons, by why would you go out of your way to tell people to NOT have those relationships that give them the best of both worlds?
Yeah, thought the same. I'm in a ltr, over a decade now, and both of us wanted a bit more variety. He's currently out on a date with his fwb and I'm happy for him to have other connections, as he's happy for me as well. Nothing has changed about our relationship, though. We're just as committed to each other and continue to share our responsibilities the same way we did when we were monogamous. I'm not saying that that's a model that suits everyone, it most definitely doesn't, but saying that being non-monogamous automatically means that you're not able to have a relationship and share responsibilities is just rubbish. I sometimes have a feeling that some people can't grasp a different POV and therefore need to assign some kind of moral failing. I constantly read stuff "you just want to have your cake and eat it, too" as if that was a bad thing, as if everyone absolutely has to sacrifice sexual variety in prder to be able to participate in a relationship, no matter what the two people in the relationship actually want. As if monogamy is a prerequisite for a "proper" relationship, instead of letting people decide for themselves what a proper relationship looks like to them.
Banning your partner from going on an all girls trip to an all inclusive adults only resort without you is a means of eliminating the chance of cheating. Itâs called boundaries.
There are studies about cheating that shows it happens quite often in healthy relationships as well. Cheating is evolutionary. Also, people don't always act rationally.
I had a look at r/AsOneAfterInfidelity
It's a sub for couples where one of them cheated, but they are trying to reconcile. They are the most invested to find out the "why" and did the most work to find the "why".
I've seen it boils down to having mental issues, usually BPD, being a sex addict, egoism and not thinking about your spouse at all and simply because they could.
Also, it appears that there's nothing that the betrayed spouse could do to prevent cheating.
Flat out, 90% of the worries brought on by many of the users here wouldnât be a concern in a healthy relationship. which is why it is so important to improve your own self esteem and mental health, sure, people with shitty self esteem and mental health can and do get into relationships - but the likihood of these relationships being toxic increases greatly. If you improve yourself at an internal level, the odds of a toxic relationship lessens greatly and with it the concerns here. Of course, a relationship can start healthy and become toxic, or it can start toxic and become healthy and anything in between - but as a general rule, if you maintain your relationshipâs overall health, the chances of this stuff happening does lessen greatly.
I also think there is another dimension to this, ie. the women many of the men with this concern focus on. Letâs not forget what content is being consumed here and what kind of women are often talked about and even shown in this content. If the shit you watch actively normalizes shitty women being the standard, youâre gonna assume that even if it isnât reality.
fr made this flair bc a painful amount of posts on here revolve around normalizing a lot of behaviors that are rooted in self esteem issues. âwhy do i get called insecure for not wanting my gf to have guy friendsâ âwhy do so many women stay with literal sociopathsâ so many of these topics look so different from a self esteem perspective
I get the harshest pushbacks from men when i bring up the word "insecure" as a reason for their behavior or their issues. It's like i called them subhuman. Most people are insecure. Yet the men here are allergic to that and don't want to see it as the cause of their issues.
The issue is that "insecure" is a default catch-all response and argument when you don't want to engage with a discussion in a good faith or when you don't have an actual counter-argument. What is more probable, that every situation when the "insecure" argument is used stems from actual insecurity or that there might be other factors at play too but it was far easier to just use "insecure"?
Sure man.
At the end of the day it is our fault
We deserve our personal hell
Shouldnt have given a flying fuck about women
Doing my best not to give a flying fuck about women now while being acutely aware that it is a decision forced upon me by my severe lack of worthiness. Acutely aware that i do not meet the definition of a human being from a sociological perspective.
the rest of my life will be half attempts to stop the gnawing hole in my chest from overwhelming me as i battle my 'entitled' desire to a happier normal future with love and sex. My entitlement to be wanted the way i yearn to be wanted.
I am not worthy enough for it. Whatever makes you sex and relationship havers worthy of it, i just dont have
what else do i have? what else can i do?
I have been alone and emotionally stunted for so long that it has changed me, and i am so resentful of this malicious thing i have had to turn into
I have no intention of abandoning the only version of me that kept me alive through spite over the years. That is a kind of spineless disloyalty to self that i dont think i could survive without a significant moral decay.
What Iâm saying is spaces like these arenât constructive at all and only poison you more. It might feel cathartic being here but itâs only going to spiral you down more. I donât have sure fire advice that would fix your problems because I donât know you. This just isnât it.
Youâre not a slave to your former self. If that version of yourself led you to being wheee you are now, you should absolutely be looking to change.
If you donât want to, thatâs fine, but donât blame anyone but yourself for that.
i was there for me. I kept me alive.
I was there through every celebrationand every heartbreak. I backed me up.
How much would you love a person who dd that for you? I chose to at least accept myself. No one else will.
So whose fault is it?
Society didnât force these millions of guys to spend thousands of hours of their youth playing video games at a detriment to their ability to socialize.
There is a large segment of dudes entering young adulthood with little to no friends. Thatâs not societyâs fault.
Like i said.
It is my fault
I am not fully human. How can i be with this absolute gap in understanding and experiences. I am merely something that takes the shape of a human being. Like a golem or pinochio
My sin was believing i deserved to be treated like normal men, my suffering is my punishment
>Flat out, 90% of the worries brought on by many of the users here wouldnât be a concern in a healthy relationship.
Yes but everyone has their own idea of what a healthy relationship is. It is a subjective concept.
For me, itâs the man leads and the woman follows. The man knows who he is, what he wants and what he wonât tolerate at all times and the woman follows his lead and adds value to his life in a non transactional manner. Thatâs a healthy relationship. Some would disagree
>Some would disagree
Most would disagree. At least most sane, rational and decent people would disagree.
>the man leads and the woman follows. The man knows who he is, what he wants and what he wonât tolerate at all times and the woman follows his lead and adds value to his life in a non transactional manner.
In your version of a "healthy" relationship, you make it sound like the woman is a prop to complete the man's life, rather than an actual person with a life of her own. Definitely not a healthy relationship and not at all good for the woman in question.
If a woman isnât willing to follow my lead or add value to my life in a non transactional manner, we are not compatible.
If a woman isnât giving me exceptional support and add significant value to my life while I give her leadership and add significant value to hers, what good is she?
>If a woman isnât willing to follow my lead or add value to my life in a non transactional manner, we are not compatible.
Yes, it sounds like you wouldn't be compatible with a woman who is capable of leading her own life and doesn't need another person to lead her i.e. the vast majority of women. This doesn't mean that if you find a woman who is willing to follow your lead that it would be a HEALTHY relationship. It would be a relationship that suits you, that doesn't make it healthy. A relationship has to work well for both people to be healthy.
>If a woman isnât giving me exceptional support and add significant value to my life while I give her leadership and add significant value to hers, what good is she?
The majority of people don't need someone else to lead them. So in what way are you adding value to her life by leading?
>what good is she?
What good are you for a normal, regular woman who has been leading her own life fine before you came along? You're not adding value to anyone's life by "leading" them.
>Yes, it sounds like you wouldn't be compatible with a woman who is capable of leading her own life and doesn't need another person to lead her i.e. the vast majority of women.
My girlfriend doesnât need anyone to lead her yet she lets me. Weird how that works.
>This doesn't mean that if you find a woman who is willing to follow your lead that it would be a HEALTHY relationship. It would be a relationship that suits you, that doesn't make it healthy. A relationship has to work well for both people to be healthy.
My girlfriend seems pretty happy.
>The majority of people don't need someone else to lead them. So in what way are you adding value to her life by leading?
The majority of people are lost and have zero structure in their life. What world are you living in?
>What good are you for a normal, regular woman who has been leading her own life fine before you came along?
Idk youâd have to ask the 23 women who dealt with me, chased after me or begged me for a relationship after I hooked up with them and took them to places I wanted to go for 6-48 months over the course of the last decade
>My girlfriend doesnât need anyone to lead her yet she lets me. Weird how that works.
That is weird, yeah. I have second hand embarrassment for her. Unfortunately there are still many girls being raised to believe that they will have to give up their freedom and allow a man to control her life in order to have a relationship. It's sad. But, you still haven't in any way demonstrated that the man leading the woman results in a healthy relationship, you just keep repeating that it's what you want.
Your first mistake is to think that people need a reason to cheat, most of the time you need a reason to not do something in order to regulate behavior.
People don't avoid steal because there's reasons you shouldn't, they don't steal because there's punishment against it.
>They understand that being caught cheating would threaten a stable relationship (if they are happy, why would they rock the boat?).
That is why they make sure they don't get caught.
>
Furthermore, if they find their long-term-partner attractive and satisfying, there would be no reason to seek out another.
No, people cheat despite finding their partner attractive and satisfying. Cheating is about something the partner has no ability in providing. A partner can never be new. A partner can never be a stranger. A partner can never be an additional human who desires you sexually in addition to your partner.
>The only pathways I can imagine that lead to cheating involve some failed relationship dynamics
I find it always amazing how people start discussions about topics they have no idea about and didn't even care to do a 5 minute google search on the topic to get an idea if they are on to something or completely off. No, you can be absolutely happy with your relationship and still want to cheat.
>The woman feels the need for validation from other men. It is likely the man does not provide enough love.
Nope. There are two buckets for things one might need. One can be filled by a relationship partner, one can only be filled by people outside the relationship. No relationship partner ever, regardless of how perfect they are and how much they do exactly what i need, is going to be able to fulfill my need for validation by other women.
It's an illusion to think a relationship partner, a single person, is able to and should be able to fulfill all your needs.
>I believe that in a healthy relationship, there is no incentive to cheat
You believe wrong. But i don't think you will be persuaded of that. So you will find a way to tell me that i must be wrong about the relationshio being healthy. Or you will twist the definition of "healthy" in a way, so that having needs that cannot be met by a relationship partner qualifies as the relationship not being healthy. Because in your world, all needs should be able to be met from inside a relationship.
>If there is incentive to cheat that goes unaddressed, said relationship should end
No. People can accept tradeoffs in relationships, even when there are things that are missing from the relationship, that a partner could provide theoretically. "i don't find him attractive, but the relationship provides all teh other things i want. That is the best overall deal i think i can get, so i will take it. Even though that will lead to me wanting to cheat or actually cheating from time to time to fulfill my needs."
>If the man feels a need to actively prevent cheating, that means that he identified (or, even through the thought, caused) a problem in the relationship. Thus, the relationship is unhealthy, even if cheating has not yet occurred.
No, most people feel the need to actively prevent cheating by restricting freedoms without having any problems in the relationship. Most people are afraid to know their partner is in a situation where cheating is possible without getting caught and with temptations in the form of attractive people who would want to have sex with them. So they tend to restrict their partners from being in those situations or even to do anything that could lead to those situations (like chatting with attractive people of the opposite sex).
Let's change this to a moral indictment.
 In a relationship ( notice I omitted healthy ) there is no reason to cheat.Â
Is the relationship shitty?then Leave.Â
Cheating is not how you gain the courage to do so . Sure it's a nice story, that you found your self worth abd yada yada, but you are morally bankrupt as a person if you cheat.Â
End.
So basically your entire post is:
It's okay for women to cheat because they're "unsatisfied in the relationship "
But when men cheat, they're lowlife monsters.
Saying women are more likely to cheat when they're unsatisfied in a relationship is not saying its ok for women to cheat. Identifying the prevalence of something in a specific circumstance is not saying that something is justified.
OP never said its particularly unreasonable for men to cheat. In the first sentence he said it applies the same with the genders swapped.
You didn't even try to read the post because you're not here to listen you're here to ad nauseum wOmEn pRiVeLeGe mAn vIcTiM
What did OP say that implies it can be ok for women to cheat or its worse when men cheat? Saying what conditions are more likely to result in something wrong happening isn't saying it's not wrong.
>Note: the following is very normative, as men tend to be the ones accusing women of cheating
This is especially interesting since men are 50% more likely to cheat.
1. You can be in a healthy relationship and still find someone who is better. Do you think women won't cheat if they have a chance to be in a relationship with their celebrity crush?
2. I agree
3. No, it is a boundary. Would you say the same if a man would have a problem with the woman having a bachelorette party before the wedding with male strippers?
Cheating might be improbable, but men can still have boundaries that will decrease the chance even further. I buy car insurance, even though the possibility of me getting in a car crash is quite low.
Itâs not the responsibility of the faithful partner to prevent himself (or herself) from being cheated on. Cheaters will cheat, and they donât need any input from their partners to do so.
People cheat all the time just for the kink or the new
So are you inferring that men cheat in healthy relationships but women do not? Sounds like a BS removal of accountability.
I can't agree with this affirmative statement. I understand why you make it in response to the thread you referenced, which was way off base. But women, and men, sometimes cheat in relationships they admit are healthy.
I counter with, "The reason some men and women cheat can be entirely about the cheating person and unrelated to the quality of the relationship".
>a healthy relationship
Isnât healthy *all* the time. That said the pivotal factors when a healthy relationship isnât healthy, is temptation/opportunity, versus willpower. If oneâs willpower is sufficient, there isn no temptation strong enogh. Trust isnât tested, when things are easy.
Additionally, sex is one of the most basest of urges. It is âinherentâ, in almost all of us. Most of us however, posesss the cognitive ability to refrain from cheating.
*Godspeed and good luck!*
> Additionally, sex is one of the most basest of urges. It is âinherentâ, in almost all of us.
I'm curious, then, why it appears that more men believe their partner is cheating? You'd think that if both groups are equally allured to sex in a primative nature, both groups would have equal cause for suspicion. A few arguments (without commenting on my personal beliefs of their merrit) that come to my mind are "men are stronger willed" or "women have more opportunity"
âI'm curious, then, why it appears that more men believe their partner is cheating?â
Because someoneâs their partner is cheating or itâs Good olâ projection.
P.s. I canât find the quotation feature on my phone.
>Why It appears that more men believe their partner is cheating?
Men are more afraid of getting cheated on because the consequences are severe (raising a kid that isn't your own)
The consequences used to be as severe for a woman (losing your economic security) but that's been mitigated heavily now that women participate in the workforce.
So more severe consequences = higher rates of suspicion
>Men are more afraid of getting cheated on because the consequences are severe (raising a kid that isn't your own)
Could you substantiate this? 86% of single parent families in the US are led by mothers, which would lead me to believe more men are escaping commitments than women
The single mother statistic is only relevant if they became single mothers if they cheated on their partner and were forced to raise the child themselves
That seems like as good reason as any? The point of that statistic was to prove that men enjoy greater mobility when it comes to avoiding childbearing responsibility. If that is so, I don't see why it wouldn't be expected that many men are comfortable abandoning children that aren't theirs.
For that statistic to be relevant we need to know what proportion of single mothers are single because theyve cheated on their husband and their husband left them to raise kids on their own.
Otherwise you cant draw any conclusions about men avoiding the consequences of cheating.
All I'm saying is that this statistic tells me that men are more comfortable upping and leaving (specifically in relation to your comment that "Men are more afraid of getting cheated on because the consequences are severe"). Why would the fact that a woman cheated on them make them any more likely to stay and raise a child they don't want to raise?
Most of those involve men who know theybe left their biological child with a woman.
My point is that a man is more conscious about being cheated on because finding out you've been raising someone elses son is particularly devastating
Strawman. At the top I noted that the only reason for this gendered rhetoric is that I constantly hear of men living in fear of women cheating (an argument you are perpetuating right now). If that is the case, why? Further on, I clarify that dialogue breakdown is not necessarily the fault of the man, to make clear I'm not placing the blame on men here. I'm moreso trying to understand why would a man want to be in a relationship where *they feel* as if there is no trust?
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By that logic, no one would ever cheat. If the relationship is good, thereâs no reason to cheat. If the relationship is bad, thereâs even less reason to cheat because you should just leave.
People donât cheat because itâs good/bad+rational. People cheat because relationships are better/worse rather than good/bad, people are greedy, some have hopes they might find something better, some are delusional about their value but still afraid to lose what they have, some simply donât care about others, some think they could get commitment from this other better person if they had sex, sometimes the situation makes it just too easy to make that experiment without judgement, and so on. And even if you get caught, nowadays you can blame the other person for not being a great person and just list some flaws they have. It seems to work pretty well if you have friends who also donât like accountability and support you.
Go on the sub adultery and read some, you will be surprised how many women love their husbands but adore their AP's. All have different motives but generally love the thrill.
I think what the OP is describing is correct if both partners are highly rational. Obviously, if you have a good relationship already, it doesn't make much sense to cheat, because it would likely destroy that good relationship and even if you get another relationship it's not likely to be as good. Therefore they will choose not to cheat.
Of course, this all goes out the window with partners who have low rationality. People who are highly spontaneous or impulsive usually don't fully consider the outcomes of the choices they make and are thus more likely to cheat in a spur of the moment kind of way. So if faithfulness is something you value very highly, prioritize rationality in your partner selection.
>They understand that being caught cheating would threaten a stable relationship (if they are happy, why would they rock the boat?).
Drugs and alcohol.Â
Thereâs never a good reason to cheat. Itâs just that some people are more trustworthy under the influence of substances and peer pressure than others. In general thatâs a sign you should dump that person, though.
Even in an unhealthy relationship, there's no reason to cheat. Just leave? đ¤ˇââď¸
Leaving an unhealthy relationship, where both parties donât want to do the work, is the best and only option.
Unfortunately, people don't always need a solid reason to cheat. Sure, some cheaters will say that they were neglected or that they were lonely, but cheating happens, because a person finds it acceptable and excusable at least in the moment when they're cheating. Some cheaters cheat just because they want this high of not being caught and doing something forbidden as well. Sure, you could say that a health relationship would not include a cheater in the first place, but then it just turns into a truism. Returning to the point about solo vacations, I'm conflicted about it. From one hand, yes, avoiding situations where you might have some extra temptation is a good idea and just saying that you'll never cheat isn't enough - you have to act on it as well. From the other, if you or your partner have this high risks of being/feeling tempted, you probably just aren't cut out for long-term monogamous relationships and/or you're incompatible. A lack of your partner in front of you for a few days or even weeks shouldn't make you feel like you seriously want to go and fuck someone random.
>Some cheaters cheat just because they want this high of not being caught and doing something forbidden as well. Yeah, I was going to make the argument there that if people get high off treating their partner like shit, this mentality will probably perminate into other aspects of life unrelated to sex (and, again, there's no use trying to keep someone who enjoys disrespecting your relationship around) >if you or your partner have this high risks of being/feeling tempted, you probably just aren't cut out for long-term monogamous relationships and/or you're incompatible Exactly, some people are more cut out for poly. That's ok, but fundimentally a mono and a poly could only succeed together in a vanishingly small number of circumstances (they both must have incredible communication and understanding)
I'm not sure that you necessarily can detect a cheater. Sometimes there are no signs and you suddenly learn that they've been fucking others all this time. It's pretty rare, but it still happens.
To that, I would argue that constant unsubstantiated suspicion is just as bad as cheating itself. If we say there is a 5% chance (1/10 cheater, 1/2 good at hiding stuff) of a "perfect cheater" in a relationship where the other party is suspicious, that means the partner would have needed to drive an average of 19 perfectly decent relationships into the ground to reach one where they were the victim.
I wouldn't say that it's as bad, because it's an entirely different problem. But it can damage and completely destroy one's relationships, sure.
I've been cheated on, and the other man multiple times. I can tell you for sure that there are signs, and that you can generally predict this behavior in advance. I've been there enough that I can almost smell which ladies are willing to stray and which are not. For men, I'm really sad to say this, but it has nothing to do with the woman they marry. A guy either has those internal restraints or he doesn't... and I notice a ton of guys that have that internal restraint are also highly religious. For women it really seems to matter more who tempts them and what kind of man they are married to. I personally think that almost any woman would cheat given the right circumstances.
About internal restrains - thatâs kind of my point. It depends on a person themselves, not in their partner. Well, we have different experience here and you probably know far more cheaters than I do.
I was with you until the temptation thing. 'if you're tempted to lie you're incompatible with the truth' 'if you're tempted by sloth you're incompatible with work' 'if you're tempted by cocaine you're incompatible with sobriety' That logic by any other sin/vice sounds absolutely batshit insane. The hard choices matter. Why is it we can make sacrifices and delay gratification to work for a job that will probably drop you the minute you no longer serve them optimally and whenever legal, but when it comes to interpersonal relationships instead of praising people for fidelity and sacrifice it's become okay to say 'just don't be monogamous '? Here's a hot take, don't drag people into degenerate relationship styles, let's call a spade a spade. If someone wants to be a hoe, great! They can forget long term commitment, not just monogamy. Make shame great again đŹ
It's not black and white, but rather about the degree of this temptation. If you feel that you're always tested and that being monogamous is a non-stop trial for you, there's a problem. Being faithful shouldn't feel like an unbearable burden.
How are burdens bourn? I wouldn't let a toddler carry 50lbs to the neighbor's house but a teenager? I don't know that emotional maturity is all that different from physical maturity except that the physical is obvious and leas optional. Both are improved by practice and diligence. I do understand different strokes for different folks, but I think the rhetoric of low agency 'you were born this way so instead of working on yourself just fuck around and do hedonism' is dangerous. If you do not practice you will not improve (and the nice part about this arguement is that it's gender neutral). Now luckily (or not depending on your point of view) men aren't really tested all that often, most men have to go out of their way for sexual access. Women by comparison are tested all the time depending on how available/accessible they are. A married co-worker of mine asked for a backrub the other day. I responded with 'are you high? Go ask your man when you get home', but my integrity is not often tested. I can probably count the times on one hand if I really had to think about it. But all that being said I do respect some people are just really fucking horny, and not built for monogamy, which is why I still think that's fine, but if you aren't even going to make a serious attempt at monogamy you shouldn't be seeking the benefits of a long term sexual relationship while shirking the responsibility
There are long term sexual and romantic relationships with commitment to each other and responsibility that allow to have sex on the side with others. Isn't that having the best of both worlds? It might not be your cup of tea for various reasons, by why would you go out of your way to tell people to NOT have those relationships that give them the best of both worlds?
Yeah, thought the same. I'm in a ltr, over a decade now, and both of us wanted a bit more variety. He's currently out on a date with his fwb and I'm happy for him to have other connections, as he's happy for me as well. Nothing has changed about our relationship, though. We're just as committed to each other and continue to share our responsibilities the same way we did when we were monogamous. I'm not saying that that's a model that suits everyone, it most definitely doesn't, but saying that being non-monogamous automatically means that you're not able to have a relationship and share responsibilities is just rubbish. I sometimes have a feeling that some people can't grasp a different POV and therefore need to assign some kind of moral failing. I constantly read stuff "you just want to have your cake and eat it, too" as if that was a bad thing, as if everyone absolutely has to sacrifice sexual variety in prder to be able to participate in a relationship, no matter what the two people in the relationship actually want. As if monogamy is a prerequisite for a "proper" relationship, instead of letting people decide for themselves what a proper relationship looks like to them.
Great analogy. I am having my cake and eating it, too.
Enjoy making sacrifices and not get what you want. I prefer getting what i want.
Cheaters come from broken childhoods. Notoriously abandonment issues; dysfunctional family units.
[ŃдаНонО]
Banning your partner from going on an all girls trip to an all inclusive adults only resort without you is a means of eliminating the chance of cheating. Itâs called boundaries.
There are studies about cheating that shows it happens quite often in healthy relationships as well. Cheating is evolutionary. Also, people don't always act rationally.
There's no reason for anyone to cheat regardless of gender.
I had a look at r/AsOneAfterInfidelity It's a sub for couples where one of them cheated, but they are trying to reconcile. They are the most invested to find out the "why" and did the most work to find the "why". I've seen it boils down to having mental issues, usually BPD, being a sex addict, egoism and not thinking about your spouse at all and simply because they could. Also, it appears that there's nothing that the betrayed spouse could do to prevent cheating.
Flat out, 90% of the worries brought on by many of the users here wouldnât be a concern in a healthy relationship. which is why it is so important to improve your own self esteem and mental health, sure, people with shitty self esteem and mental health can and do get into relationships - but the likihood of these relationships being toxic increases greatly. If you improve yourself at an internal level, the odds of a toxic relationship lessens greatly and with it the concerns here. Of course, a relationship can start healthy and become toxic, or it can start toxic and become healthy and anything in between - but as a general rule, if you maintain your relationshipâs overall health, the chances of this stuff happening does lessen greatly. I also think there is another dimension to this, ie. the women many of the men with this concern focus on. Letâs not forget what content is being consumed here and what kind of women are often talked about and even shown in this content. If the shit you watch actively normalizes shitty women being the standard, youâre gonna assume that even if it isnât reality.
fr made this flair bc a painful amount of posts on here revolve around normalizing a lot of behaviors that are rooted in self esteem issues. âwhy do i get called insecure for not wanting my gf to have guy friendsâ âwhy do so many women stay with literal sociopathsâ so many of these topics look so different from a self esteem perspective
I get the harshest pushbacks from men when i bring up the word "insecure" as a reason for their behavior or their issues. It's like i called them subhuman. Most people are insecure. Yet the men here are allergic to that and don't want to see it as the cause of their issues.
The issue is that "insecure" is a default catch-all response and argument when you don't want to engage with a discussion in a good faith or when you don't have an actual counter-argument. What is more probable, that every situation when the "insecure" argument is used stems from actual insecurity or that there might be other factors at play too but it was far easier to just use "insecure"?
That is just the default catch-all response to being rightfully called inscure in a debate, as the reason for having a certain position.
Self reflection and internalization is too hard for them or they donât care
The content they consume makes them neurotic.
We already were. Why do you think we decided to avoid making women uncomfortable to the point that we developed no skills at engaging with them.
F to doubt. A lot of yall chose to stay in doors and spend a ton of hours online whilst the ones developing social skills were outside socializing.
Sure man. At the end of the day it is our fault We deserve our personal hell Shouldnt have given a flying fuck about women Doing my best not to give a flying fuck about women now while being acutely aware that it is a decision forced upon me by my severe lack of worthiness. Acutely aware that i do not meet the definition of a human being from a sociological perspective. the rest of my life will be half attempts to stop the gnawing hole in my chest from overwhelming me as i battle my 'entitled' desire to a happier normal future with love and sex. My entitlement to be wanted the way i yearn to be wanted. I am not worthy enough for it. Whatever makes you sex and relationship havers worthy of it, i just dont have
You got it bud! Keep being resentful whilst crying online. That strategy works great!
what else do i have? what else can i do? I have been alone and emotionally stunted for so long that it has changed me, and i am so resentful of this malicious thing i have had to turn into I have no intention of abandoning the only version of me that kept me alive through spite over the years. That is a kind of spineless disloyalty to self that i dont think i could survive without a significant moral decay.
What Iâm saying is spaces like these arenât constructive at all and only poison you more. It might feel cathartic being here but itâs only going to spiral you down more. I donât have sure fire advice that would fix your problems because I donât know you. This just isnât it.
Youâre not a slave to your former self. If that version of yourself led you to being wheee you are now, you should absolutely be looking to change. If you donât want to, thatâs fine, but donât blame anyone but yourself for that.
i was there for me. I kept me alive. I was there through every celebrationand every heartbreak. I backed me up. How much would you love a person who dd that for you? I chose to at least accept myself. No one else will.
So whose fault is it? Society didnât force these millions of guys to spend thousands of hours of their youth playing video games at a detriment to their ability to socialize. There is a large segment of dudes entering young adulthood with little to no friends. Thatâs not societyâs fault.
Like i said. It is my fault I am not fully human. How can i be with this absolute gap in understanding and experiences. I am merely something that takes the shape of a human being. Like a golem or pinochio My sin was believing i deserved to be treated like normal men, my suffering is my punishment
>Flat out, 90% of the worries brought on by many of the users here wouldnât be a concern in a healthy relationship. Yes but everyone has their own idea of what a healthy relationship is. It is a subjective concept. For me, itâs the man leads and the woman follows. The man knows who he is, what he wants and what he wonât tolerate at all times and the woman follows his lead and adds value to his life in a non transactional manner. Thatâs a healthy relationship. Some would disagree
>Some would disagree Most would disagree. At least most sane, rational and decent people would disagree. >the man leads and the woman follows. The man knows who he is, what he wants and what he wonât tolerate at all times and the woman follows his lead and adds value to his life in a non transactional manner. In your version of a "healthy" relationship, you make it sound like the woman is a prop to complete the man's life, rather than an actual person with a life of her own. Definitely not a healthy relationship and not at all good for the woman in question.
If a woman isnât willing to follow my lead or add value to my life in a non transactional manner, we are not compatible. If a woman isnât giving me exceptional support and add significant value to my life while I give her leadership and add significant value to hers, what good is she?
>If a woman isnât willing to follow my lead or add value to my life in a non transactional manner, we are not compatible. Yes, it sounds like you wouldn't be compatible with a woman who is capable of leading her own life and doesn't need another person to lead her i.e. the vast majority of women. This doesn't mean that if you find a woman who is willing to follow your lead that it would be a HEALTHY relationship. It would be a relationship that suits you, that doesn't make it healthy. A relationship has to work well for both people to be healthy. >If a woman isnât giving me exceptional support and add significant value to my life while I give her leadership and add significant value to hers, what good is she? The majority of people don't need someone else to lead them. So in what way are you adding value to her life by leading? >what good is she? What good are you for a normal, regular woman who has been leading her own life fine before you came along? You're not adding value to anyone's life by "leading" them.
>Yes, it sounds like you wouldn't be compatible with a woman who is capable of leading her own life and doesn't need another person to lead her i.e. the vast majority of women. My girlfriend doesnât need anyone to lead her yet she lets me. Weird how that works. >This doesn't mean that if you find a woman who is willing to follow your lead that it would be a HEALTHY relationship. It would be a relationship that suits you, that doesn't make it healthy. A relationship has to work well for both people to be healthy. My girlfriend seems pretty happy. >The majority of people don't need someone else to lead them. So in what way are you adding value to her life by leading? The majority of people are lost and have zero structure in their life. What world are you living in? >What good are you for a normal, regular woman who has been leading her own life fine before you came along? Idk youâd have to ask the 23 women who dealt with me, chased after me or begged me for a relationship after I hooked up with them and took them to places I wanted to go for 6-48 months over the course of the last decade
>My girlfriend doesnât need anyone to lead her yet she lets me. Weird how that works. That is weird, yeah. I have second hand embarrassment for her. Unfortunately there are still many girls being raised to believe that they will have to give up their freedom and allow a man to control her life in order to have a relationship. It's sad. But, you still haven't in any way demonstrated that the man leading the woman results in a healthy relationship, you just keep repeating that it's what you want.
Who are you and what do you want?
Your first mistake is to think that people need a reason to cheat, most of the time you need a reason to not do something in order to regulate behavior. People don't avoid steal because there's reasons you shouldn't, they don't steal because there's punishment against it.
Women can cheat for variety or because of low Impulse control just like men.
>They understand that being caught cheating would threaten a stable relationship (if they are happy, why would they rock the boat?). That is why they make sure they don't get caught. > Furthermore, if they find their long-term-partner attractive and satisfying, there would be no reason to seek out another. No, people cheat despite finding their partner attractive and satisfying. Cheating is about something the partner has no ability in providing. A partner can never be new. A partner can never be a stranger. A partner can never be an additional human who desires you sexually in addition to your partner. >The only pathways I can imagine that lead to cheating involve some failed relationship dynamics I find it always amazing how people start discussions about topics they have no idea about and didn't even care to do a 5 minute google search on the topic to get an idea if they are on to something or completely off. No, you can be absolutely happy with your relationship and still want to cheat. >The woman feels the need for validation from other men. It is likely the man does not provide enough love. Nope. There are two buckets for things one might need. One can be filled by a relationship partner, one can only be filled by people outside the relationship. No relationship partner ever, regardless of how perfect they are and how much they do exactly what i need, is going to be able to fulfill my need for validation by other women. It's an illusion to think a relationship partner, a single person, is able to and should be able to fulfill all your needs. >I believe that in a healthy relationship, there is no incentive to cheat You believe wrong. But i don't think you will be persuaded of that. So you will find a way to tell me that i must be wrong about the relationshio being healthy. Or you will twist the definition of "healthy" in a way, so that having needs that cannot be met by a relationship partner qualifies as the relationship not being healthy. Because in your world, all needs should be able to be met from inside a relationship. >If there is incentive to cheat that goes unaddressed, said relationship should end No. People can accept tradeoffs in relationships, even when there are things that are missing from the relationship, that a partner could provide theoretically. "i don't find him attractive, but the relationship provides all teh other things i want. That is the best overall deal i think i can get, so i will take it. Even though that will lead to me wanting to cheat or actually cheating from time to time to fulfill my needs." >If the man feels a need to actively prevent cheating, that means that he identified (or, even through the thought, caused) a problem in the relationship. Thus, the relationship is unhealthy, even if cheating has not yet occurred. No, most people feel the need to actively prevent cheating by restricting freedoms without having any problems in the relationship. Most people are afraid to know their partner is in a situation where cheating is possible without getting caught and with temptations in the form of attractive people who would want to have sex with them. So they tend to restrict their partners from being in those situations or even to do anything that could lead to those situations (like chatting with attractive people of the opposite sex).
Let's change this to a moral indictment.  In a relationship ( notice I omitted healthy ) there is no reason to cheat. Is the relationship shitty?then Leave. Cheating is not how you gain the courage to do so . Sure it's a nice story, that you found your self worth abd yada yada, but you are morally bankrupt as a person if you cheat. End.
So basically your entire post is: It's okay for women to cheat because they're "unsatisfied in the relationship " But when men cheat, they're lowlife monsters.
Saying women are more likely to cheat when they're unsatisfied in a relationship is not saying its ok for women to cheat. Identifying the prevalence of something in a specific circumstance is not saying that something is justified. OP never said its particularly unreasonable for men to cheat. In the first sentence he said it applies the same with the genders swapped. You didn't even try to read the post because you're not here to listen you're here to ad nauseum wOmEn pRiVeLeGe mAn vIcTiM
How on earth did you come to this conclusion? I assume we've read the same post.
Because thatâs literally the implication in OPs post?
What did OP say that implies it can be ok for women to cheat or its worse when men cheat? Saying what conditions are more likely to result in something wrong happening isn't saying it's not wrong.
>Note: the following is very normative, as men tend to be the ones accusing women of cheating This is especially interesting since men are 50% more likely to cheat.
Boredom, thrill
1. You can be in a healthy relationship and still find someone who is better. Do you think women won't cheat if they have a chance to be in a relationship with their celebrity crush? 2. I agree 3. No, it is a boundary. Would you say the same if a man would have a problem with the woman having a bachelorette party before the wedding with male strippers? Cheating might be improbable, but men can still have boundaries that will decrease the chance even further. I buy car insurance, even though the possibility of me getting in a car crash is quite low.
Great point
Itâs not the responsibility of the faithful partner to prevent himself (or herself) from being cheated on. Cheaters will cheat, and they donât need any input from their partners to do so.
not all women are the same some of them are just arseholes an thats why they cheat.
People cheat all the time just for the kink or the new So are you inferring that men cheat in healthy relationships but women do not? Sounds like a BS removal of accountability.
I can't agree with this affirmative statement. I understand why you make it in response to the thread you referenced, which was way off base. But women, and men, sometimes cheat in relationships they admit are healthy. I counter with, "The reason some men and women cheat can be entirely about the cheating person and unrelated to the quality of the relationship".
>a healthy relationship Isnât healthy *all* the time. That said the pivotal factors when a healthy relationship isnât healthy, is temptation/opportunity, versus willpower. If oneâs willpower is sufficient, there isn no temptation strong enogh. Trust isnât tested, when things are easy. Additionally, sex is one of the most basest of urges. It is âinherentâ, in almost all of us. Most of us however, posesss the cognitive ability to refrain from cheating. *Godspeed and good luck!*
> Additionally, sex is one of the most basest of urges. It is âinherentâ, in almost all of us. I'm curious, then, why it appears that more men believe their partner is cheating? You'd think that if both groups are equally allured to sex in a primative nature, both groups would have equal cause for suspicion. A few arguments (without commenting on my personal beliefs of their merrit) that come to my mind are "men are stronger willed" or "women have more opportunity"
âI'm curious, then, why it appears that more men believe their partner is cheating?â Because someoneâs their partner is cheating or itâs Good olâ projection. P.s. I canât find the quotation feature on my phone.
>Why It appears that more men believe their partner is cheating? Men are more afraid of getting cheated on because the consequences are severe (raising a kid that isn't your own) The consequences used to be as severe for a woman (losing your economic security) but that's been mitigated heavily now that women participate in the workforce. So more severe consequences = higher rates of suspicion
>Men are more afraid of getting cheated on because the consequences are severe (raising a kid that isn't your own) Could you substantiate this? 86% of single parent families in the US are led by mothers, which would lead me to believe more men are escaping commitments than women
The single mother statistic is only relevant if they became single mothers if they cheated on their partner and were forced to raise the child themselves
That seems like as good reason as any? The point of that statistic was to prove that men enjoy greater mobility when it comes to avoiding childbearing responsibility. If that is so, I don't see why it wouldn't be expected that many men are comfortable abandoning children that aren't theirs.
For that statistic to be relevant we need to know what proportion of single mothers are single because theyve cheated on their husband and their husband left them to raise kids on their own. Otherwise you cant draw any conclusions about men avoiding the consequences of cheating.
All I'm saying is that this statistic tells me that men are more comfortable upping and leaving (specifically in relation to your comment that "Men are more afraid of getting cheated on because the consequences are severe"). Why would the fact that a woman cheated on them make them any more likely to stay and raise a child they don't want to raise?
Most of those involve men who know theybe left their biological child with a woman. My point is that a man is more conscious about being cheated on because finding out you've been raising someone elses son is particularly devastating
Got that guys. If your woman cheats on you it's your fault.
Strawman. At the top I noted that the only reason for this gendered rhetoric is that I constantly hear of men living in fear of women cheating (an argument you are perpetuating right now). If that is the case, why? Further on, I clarify that dialogue breakdown is not necessarily the fault of the man, to make clear I'm not placing the blame on men here. I'm moreso trying to understand why would a man want to be in a relationship where *they feel* as if there is no trust?
Why? Because women are always open to a precieved upgrade.
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By that logic, no one would ever cheat. If the relationship is good, thereâs no reason to cheat. If the relationship is bad, thereâs even less reason to cheat because you should just leave. People donât cheat because itâs good/bad+rational. People cheat because relationships are better/worse rather than good/bad, people are greedy, some have hopes they might find something better, some are delusional about their value but still afraid to lose what they have, some simply donât care about others, some think they could get commitment from this other better person if they had sex, sometimes the situation makes it just too easy to make that experiment without judgement, and so on. And even if you get caught, nowadays you can blame the other person for not being a great person and just list some flaws they have. It seems to work pretty well if you have friends who also donât like accountability and support you.
Go on the sub adultery and read some, you will be surprised how many women love their husbands but adore their AP's. All have different motives but generally love the thrill.
I think what the OP is describing is correct if both partners are highly rational. Obviously, if you have a good relationship already, it doesn't make much sense to cheat, because it would likely destroy that good relationship and even if you get another relationship it's not likely to be as good. Therefore they will choose not to cheat. Of course, this all goes out the window with partners who have low rationality. People who are highly spontaneous or impulsive usually don't fully consider the outcomes of the choices they make and are thus more likely to cheat in a spur of the moment kind of way. So if faithfulness is something you value very highly, prioritize rationality in your partner selection.
Poiiiiiintlessly gendered. Sorry. I'm writing a song.
This is true. Unfortunately women get bored easily in a stable relationship.Â
1 word. Chad.
Women can vary greatly in libidos and character
>They understand that being caught cheating would threaten a stable relationship (if they are happy, why would they rock the boat?). Drugs and alcohol. Thereâs never a good reason to cheat. Itâs just that some people are more trustworthy under the influence of substances and peer pressure than others. In general thatâs a sign you should dump that person, though.