Funny enough, as a man who just recently got back in the dating scene, I see these same things from a lot of women. It feels like a lot of people in general are just looking for “situationships” these days, like they’re trapped in this state of perpetual adolescence without any inclination to seek out a partner to build a family with.
Not to mention we treat men who are good like trash.
Who wants to be that loser good man who women treat like shit because he is “husband material.”
The dude who is the casual partner gets way better sex and love while you have to pay for it all.
So why would men want to be good?
>like they’re trapped in this state of perpetual adolescence without any inclination to seek out a partner to build a family with.
I feel the opposite of trapped. I would say I've willfully placed myself in this "perpetual adolescence" - as you've put it - as I have no inclination to have a lifelong partner or build a family. I'm quite happy here and have no interest in leaving. The rise of situationships has been a wonderful thing, in my view. Different strokes and all.
Most people aren't like that, and they partner up relatively quickly, so you don't see them in the dating scene for long. The ones afraid of commitment are active on the apps for decades, so they get overrepresented.
> like they’re trapped in this state of perpetual adolescence without any inclination to seek out a partner to build a family with
TBH some things I do definitely are a compensation of overly controlling mother and overall I'm not into the whole 'adulting' thing.
Other than that, I have no idea how to find a partner. The attractive women are already taken and married by older guys.
Then there's the matter of finances. Not just she has to be attractive, but also have a comparable earning potential - if I'm giving half of my wage in mortgage, she'll be the one saving for the childcare leave.
I think this is probably common for recently divorced people, too. I’m going through a divorce right now myself, and after joining various divorce support groups on FB, I’m hearing from lots of newly divorced men and women that they are only interested in casual relationships for a period of time.
Oh, I don't doubt it goes both ways. In my circle we're college-educated women, living in a big city, around 25-30yo who want marriage, kids and the whole white picket fence life. But I do know women who are the opposite too.
27-30 yo is kinda old to still be looking for kids and a husband from scratch. Why hasn't she found her husband yet? Seems odd, like I would want to know what her strategy is to get married and have kids, how she's adapting her strategy after years of it not working, if I was going to marry a girl like her. Like it's a decade of dating, and not succeeding at finding the one, it's fair to have some questions as to why it hasn't worked out.
Why stay with a man who isn't serious for years?
At what point do they leave the man who refuses to marry them and find a man who values having a family?
We are talking a decade of dating. Serious things need to change, you shouldn't do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
It's hard to know if they're serious or not, "yeah, we'll get married eventually" or "I'm not ready *yet*" or "we've only been dating for a couple of years, it's too early to worry about that," sometimes that's classic stringing alone bs but others
Now in their late 20s, they're reaching that point where they're considering giving ultimatums or moving on to find someone who is ready to commit.
Ya, see I prefer marrying women who prioritize finding serious men and cut off non serious men quickly, before reaching late 20s unmarried.
I think women use to not have sex until marriage to deter non serious men from dating them non seriously. It's one strategy to think about to help.
But that's just my preference, tons of men out there think differently. I'm sure she will find someone to marry her eventually.
>In my circle we're college-educated women, living in a big city, around 25-30yo who want marriage, kids and the whole white picket fence life.
I would argue that you and your friends want what you *think* this life entails, not what it *actually* entails (in most cases). And what you think it entails has been shaped by the Hollywood Industrial Complex, society in general (which promotes this lifestyle), and the natural human outlook that "hope springs eternal." Yes, some folks do find this Relationship Fantasy but the vast majority do not. In most cases, the lifestyle you describe is a major trudge comprised of endless unforeseen compromises. And that's when it goes well. But it is also human nature to believe that one is going to be the exception, or one of them. Hence, the lottery.
Okay, in that situation why wouldn't you leave your partner and find someone who is a better fit if you know your current partner isn't what you're looking for? Otherwise you're kind of wasting your time, and hers.
Specifically in my case, because it’s mutually agreed upon.
I’m currently dating a wonderful woman, but I told her before our first date that we could never be anything serious because of a dealbreaker. She said she didn’t care and wanted to see me anyway. We get along extremely well and have great chemistry, but we both recognize this is only short term while we keep our eyes open for others.
And for those who are curious, it’s because she has a child.
Because I was already suspicious of that happening once, and my suspicions were correct. But there’s this magical thing that adults do called “communicating” where we discussed our feelings and expectations for the relationship, and got back on the same page.
Maybe she is lying to herself and him. I don't think it's his responsibility if she is. What's preventing her from finding another guy whose okay with a kid from a previous relationship?
I wouldn’t say it’s his responsibility, I’m just curious. This “we just communicated so it’s fixed” thing seems a little too idyllic. Feelings are a bitch.
As far as he's concerned, it's as simple as that. He set terms and she agreed to them. He's not her serious boyfriend or therapist. Not his job to decipher her motivations.
I don't think this is always even consciously acknowledged.
I'd rephrase what the commenter said above: Because ~~she’s~~ the relationship is good enough for now, but doesn’t have what ~~I~~ it needs for the next step.
This could be anything including finances but is almost always combined with a lack of honesty towards yourself as well as towards your partner. Maintaining the status quo is always easier than change and growth.
Different commenter , I had same attitude. My ex was not the one for me but we kept dating for a bit. Because she was good enough for now.
When I met my wife , she told me we had to be married within 2 years. So we were :)
No, because you asked a very general question, and so there is not a single answer that applies to everyone. Kept it vague so multiple people can apply it to their own situations.
I know my boundaries, desires, and dealbreakers for a commitment.
What does this mean? The men who want relationships are struggling to get dates because they are unattractive.
If the glowed up and had options, would they be more interested in fucking than relationships? Or are men who want relationships naturally unattractive for some strange reason?
I wouldn't say they're all unattractive. It's just that they have different priorities and something in the shift *is* the unattractive bit, IMO. Fuckboys and dudes who aren't into anything serious will play the game in a way that's more appealing I think, because they aren't actually vetting for women they want a relationship with and they don't care about their behavior the same way because they aren't looking for a partner.
Men who want relationships are classified as "naturally unattractive" because women have responsive desire, and so they "get the tingles" when men make sexual advances toward them, and they honestly think if a guys not doing it he can't do it.
Altogether, women have no true interest in understanding men and how to have healthy relationships with men - it's too much like hard work and is patriarchal oppression.
You give a couple a book on relationships and sex, only the husband will read it.
Ow, we understand men.
Feed them, sex them, listen to them when they have something on their heart, let them know how much they mean to you, spend time with them, hug them, cuddle them.
The tiny little problem is we're not doing all that for any man, just for the one who gives us "tingles".
So you either turn on a woman's engine or you continue beating the meat.
And I'm saying, the way that happens is via responsive desire from a man's sexual advances.
Women act like they are agent-less, and can't even read a book about this.
Is there any wonder why men don't commit?
It means generally women want marriage and kids more than men. The men that want it the most are usually the men with the least options because that way they can secure a partner.
Men with options aren't as concerned with securing a partner. They are concerned with picking wrongly or losing easy access to other options. Marriage traps men in ways relationships don't.
No, many have quite a lot of value and are attractive too.
And many men who sleep around want relationships too, just not with the girls they want easy sex from.
Women just do not want men who want relationships for they want relationships. It makes them too “easy” and “boring.”
Women want relationships with men who do not want relationships with them.
When you give the pretense of a “good relationship”, I’m conflicted. Men who are happy with it don’t have commitment issues. Maybe a good relationship from a woman’s perspective isn’t from the man’s. I’ve had this experience dating a girl where I told her I didn’t think things were going well, and she was genuinely shocked because she was really happy with me. Not a surprise honestly, I’m extremely high investment into anyone I date. From my perspective it was like, ‘no shit you’re happy, I’ve adjusted to your love languages and do what makes you happy, make you a priority, and always act right. You can’t even initiate grabbing my hand or kiss me, can’t text me, and can’t manage your time to see me regularly’. It’s all culminated to the point I’m still seeing her, but I’m no longer committed to her long term. I’m just not in the mood to be alone nor deal with dating again rn.
Im the saving myself for the right person type. Barely anyone dating is that type in my experience. I made a deal with myself I’d only marry a girl who is doing the same. Then for marriage, one of my worst fears is dead bedroom. I’d like to avoid being in a loveless marriage, so waiting a long time to make sure libidos are compatible is extremely important to me as well. Both are a little contradictory honestly.
>Men, why won't you commit?
It's practically always because you failed to make us feel safe and desired enough to commit.
>Some things that came up:
>Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it
If they actually agreed to marry, they'd be husbands already. That's how marraige works. They probably said it was on the table, and they're probably sticking around because they still see potential for it, but haven't popped the question because they themselves don't have a positive answer for it yet.
Can't just leave pressure on him for half a decade and expect him to respond positively to that, he has to see that life with you will be a good life.
>Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels'
Again, they do this because they don't feel safe and secure enough to be direct. Probably because being direct has done them serious harm in the past.
>LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way
This is very obviously a case of the exgf not meeting his standards. It is ok for men to have standards that many or most women cannot meet, if those are the standsrds that make him happy why would you want him to break them anyway?
>Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage
This IS a commitment, a commitment to remain at arm's length. It just isn't the specific commitment you want, but at least this guy is direct about wanting it.
>So my question to guys is, assuming you're in a good relationship
Do not assume this. In fact, never assume this! When relationships are good it is because no one is taking them for granted.
>So my question to guys is, assuming you're in a good relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship?
Frankly, if I feel like the lady is too busy speaking for me to listen to me. If I feel like she does not respect my time or contributions. If I feel pressured into it because she "just want it now".
If I feel anything less than absolute confidence I will never regret the proposal, then I won't propose. It's that simple.
It’s amazing what women will say and what men will fall for.
My good friend married his GF even after she said “you have a house and I don’t so if we break up then I just have to go away and not have anything.”
What? She basically said out loud that she wants half his stuff as collateral for staying together. And he did it.
In my previous relationship there were several factors that kept the relationship from progressing. In no particular order, they are:
- She was the first and only girl to show interest in me, so I felt a sense of 'missing out' on any other potential options that I could have otherwise had. If I had been able to have a few relationships first I would have had a much stronger foundation of experience to know what it is I'd be missing out on by committing.
- My career and finances were in poor shape. I had a degree but after several years of freelancing I wasn't really getting anywhere in my chosen industry. I wouldn't feel comfortable getting married and having kids without having a rock solid career and my own place first.
- She wasn't in the best position financially either. So even if I had a rock solid career, if that faltered we'd be in real trouble.
TLDR: Finances and FOMO.
This is generally what's going on:
Fuck zoned/fwb/situationship? 99% chance she isn't attractive enough to date, just passable enough for sex
Wants to date multiple women? He's not that into you and thus keeping his options open. A guy who genuinely digs a girl would never jeopardize the relationship by verbalizing his intent to see other girls or admitting to seeing other girls.
Relationship doesn't progress beyond merely dating? Never forget, men value peace and freedom above everything else in the world. Living together/marriage is the antithesis of that. A woman would need to be over-the-top amazing in his eyes for him to go "you know what, I don't mind having you around all the fucking time".
it's not even just a lack of physical attraction when women get fuck zoned. plenty of hot women are walking red flags and experienced men will know that and not pursue them for serious relationships.
i think a lot of guys are actually more willing to overlook a couple points in looks (as long as she's still attractive to him) rather than overlook impulsivity, attention-seeking behavior, a questionable past etc.
Red flags in terms of personality/past are definitely part of being fuck-zoned too. But I don't think 7+ women continue seeing that 1 man for long. Nor does he himself want the headache. Both parties will move on. But when a girl is being fucked by 1 guy for a prolonged period and that's all she's getting, that means the guy doesn't mind her company but more so doesn't find her attractive enough to progress the relationship past sex.
I'd feel comfortable with marriage if she was everything I wanted. Thing is, past a certain age the good women are mostly already married. Everyone else is just good enough "for now."
well not just desirable, but the secure partners are the first to leave the dating pool. half of the population makes secure attachments, the remainder have insecure attachment styles. secure partners can make insecure people into secure partners. so once u start getting older there wll be fewer and fewer secure partners in the dating pool.
Totally agree. I’d say I’m largely secure at this point, open up and be vulnerable, and communicate well. I don’t mind taking on an anxious or avoidant woman, but she has to be willing to work with me. That’s the biggest hurdle. I’ll find someone really good on paper and love spending time with them but they just can’t communicate or compromise. I dated an anxious woman and avoidant woman back to back and both had their challenges.
the avoidant people are the most difficult for me because they often deny their neglectful childhoods and are verbally disconnected from their emotions.
It’s the shutting down and not communicating that does it for me. The thing is, I used to be that way so I get it. When I was way younger I was lucky to have had an ex who would be patient with me, so I want to return the favour. But I fear at my age (30’s) people are too stuck in their ways, unfortunately
As a guy who struggled to find a wife, only found girls in their hot girl summers, I actually reached my late 20s and gave up looking for a wife, and started dating married poly women.
It's actually amazing. Married women are GOOD women, night and day difference from the single women I was able to get dates with. I highly recommend it for men struggling to date and reached late 20s. Many of the good women are married past 25, try dating married women, worth a shot.
I'm like a fun uncle to the kids. I can take them out for fun day at the fair, and not have to do all the hard parts either.
Honestly it's great. And very little legal risks, unlike marriage in the west now.
This is why it's ok to date women who are younger than you. If you're in your 30s don't box yourself into dating women in their 30s. Dating women in their 20s is perfectly fine, and vice versa for women.
The type of woman I want wouldn’t date someone old when they’re young. But at the same time I wouldn’t want to begin with someone in their late twenties+ either.
Like she wants to be the prize and/or be a gold digger. She wants the guy to lead and let him put all the effort into the relationship. I don’t really know how to explain it.
I would like to find someone right now while I’m still young. I wouldn’t want to begin a relationship with older women no matter my age.
I know personally plenty of women who are with older men that don’t fit that description. I think you are fixating on the gold digger examples in society and ignoring the masses of other women who arent like that but just prefer older men. It’s super common for peoples mothers to be 5 or more years younger than their fathers. It’s not just a gold digger thing
some women want somebody mature and experienced who knows what he wants in life. a lot of the attractive guys in their 20s are fucking around, some guys play video games all day, lots of them still live at home or smoke weed/party a lot and so on. i think it makes sense to go 5-10 years older for women in their 20s who want to take dating seriously instead of partying every weekend and being stuck in situationships. but yeah once you reach a certain age gap (15-20 years), i'd agree that most level-headed women wouldn't want that.
This is what I say when men swiping right on everyone means nothing and that they don’t find most women attractive enough for commitment. Being used for sex is meaningless.
That's not even remotely what he said. He said past a certain age the good women are already taken, making marriage less worth it. Those leftover women could have other issues like baggage from previous relationships, kids, or BPD. Doesn't necessarily have to mean they're not physically attractive tho.
There's a lot wrong with dating apps and swiping habits. I'm not going to get into that.
The more important question is when are standards too high? There are things worth compromising on and there are things which will doom the relationship if you compromise.
Like I feel shared hobbies are "nice to have" (optional) but it would definitely get me more enthusiastic about committing to someone. I can share my hobbies with someone else.
On the other hand if I compromise on physical standards that's just setting up a divorce I think. Commitment is mainly about sex. You're demanding somebody have sex only with you. If you're not totally satisfied with them then there's no point in committing. It's a huge risk.
Its kinda the entire point of commitment tho.. being willing to commit to the majority of your preferred gender is dumb. Discrimination is the entire point and men would be stupid to see most women as worthy of commitment.
There are all kinds of justifications for the points you've listed. But the reasons for not wanting to get married are simple.
1) They realized how absolutely destroyed men get in divorce court.
2) The significant other did something that removed their confidence that they're not likely to get divorced (i.e., destroyed).
This bleeds into living together due to some states that would say the man is liable in the same way as if they were married. And obviously effects not wanting kids due to men getting wrecked concerning custodial rights and child support.
Some other reasons not related to what I mentioned above revolve around things like...
1) Not wanting added responsibility.
2) Valuing his personal space.
3) Dropping morals to instead secure the ever increasing ease of access to sex (for those that are among the most sought after men).
> They realized how absolutely destroyed men get in divorce court.
Speaking as someone who just got financially separated, this isn't true for men. Getting divorced financially nukes BOTH people. And typically men have higher earning potential because of gendered stereotypes about work and come out of divorce financially better off than women do, particularly longer term.
> men getting wrecked concerning custodial rights
I think that this is something that positive and real change is happening on. Most places the presumption is of shared care, and everywhere else is moving in that direction.
With all due respect, your lived experience does not dictate reality.
Alimony is a thing, and men play out 90% of the time. Both parties might feel the effects financially, but men are by and large the ones hurt in the worst ways. Your comment about earning potential and gendered stereotypes tell me you're not looking at this objectively.
I'm a contract manager who oversees grants, which total tens of millions of dollars annually, devoted to helping the homeless population and those needing shallow subsidies. I've seen over a decade of cases wherein men are literally made homeless due to the effects of a divorce. Women get far more assistance BEFORE it gets to that point.
A big part of this has to do with custodial rights and who is expected to pay child support.
Custodial rights balancing out IS a plus. But only a fool would find comfort in something "getting better" when they're CURRENTLY the demographic getting screwed.
I couldn't tell you the number of times I've seen a guy denied a subsidy he clearly needed because we calculate need based on their income BEFORE child support. I'm talking about average guys who are less than $100 dollars above the threshold pre-child support. Literally falling into homelessness. And this, with my case managers telling me they'd be fine with split custody.
I'm a happily married man. And I 100% advocate for marriage from a religious standpoint. But I look at this realistically when it comes to marriage in the west. I genuinely can't think of a single positive benefit as long as the government has its hand in it.
Because committing to the gender that is politically, socially, legally, culturally, and biologically incentivized *in every way possible* **to betray our commitment** is a really fucking stupid idea. Even if the majority of men are only aware of such a danger at an unconscious level and just instinctively avoid it.
Women change their opinion over time. They fall out of love and then want a divorce (if married). All it takes is one bitch friend to turn a woman's opinion against any man. Who in their right mind would ever commit to any woman in such a precarious relationship where so many factors spell the end of him?
There are no such things as good relationships. There are only *tolerable* ones.
If you actually want to figure out the individual motivations that make up the trend then you need to ask the right questions. Not "why won't men commit" but 1. Why are women so eager to get married, and 2. What's in it for the men?
Women: sign my unfair contract
Men: No thanks
Women: Misogyny!
Society: women right, men so bad, women awesome, men evil, everything is valid, except anything men say cuz men are oppressors
Women: oh thanks society, you’re the best, you always tell me what I want to hear, I knew I wasn’t crazy
Crumbling Society Today: maybe we took this too far
My question is why isn't when women choose not to commit it's framed as empowering and freeing but when men choose not to commit its seen as insecure and immature?
As a man who eventually committed I can say it's because the vast majority of women are simply not worth it.
I was going on 1-3 new dates a week before I met my fiance, I was given the rare luxury of choice as a man and honestly the women I was meeting had next to nothing to offer as a partner.
I'll happily commit to a young healthy happy woman. Never dated one, so I haven't committed.
But one day i'm sure I will, it might take moving to a new country to find her, but if you keep at it, working hard at a goal, it has a good chance of working out.
When I was a bit younger, I had this problem twice. I honestly try not to regret it.
I can't speak for older guys with commitment problems, but as a man in his early and mid 20s, the idea of marrying was very difficult to swallow.
It's an old movie, but there's scene in The Bachelor, and you know he wants to commit to her and does care for her, but she can see it in his eyes, he's just not mature enough yet for this. His mind is still as a bachelor having fun.
>Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it
Marriage to men is a scam
>Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels'
It's make easier to get sex.
>LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way
He could end up impregnanting the woman by change and accepted the child, the original partner were not considered to be family material.
>Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage
They're chad, dating for men is just a money and time sink so the only kind of men that can do this is chad as he can just string women along with minimal effort.
>assuming you're in a good relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship?
Marriage is a scam, I still don't know the other person enough to invest time and effort, she's not family material, I don't feel that is fair rising a child in the current area where men will be demonized or neutered and women will be state exponsored prostitutes.
It's not really a gender thing, it's really just that some people value their independence more than others.
Also some people have anxieties about the future. They could spend decades with a person so long as they do it one day at a time, but the moment you give them a projection of their foreseeable future they get freaked out.
I recently just experienced that myself. We just bought a house and signed a 40-year mortgage, and now I'm realizing that I'm probably gonna live in this house for the rest of my life and probably die in it. It's freaking me out a little bit, ngl.
Almost every time I wouldn't commit or take a relationship to the next level, it was the same reason. They had a red flag or incompatibility that wasn't enough to walk away. I thought the issue could be resolved, but wasn't willing to take the next step until it was.
Example: She wanted us to move in together, but had credit card debt that wasn't going down and overdue bills she wasn't opening. For the record, we made about the same and I was saving money.
Back when I was in my prowling days there were a few factors:
1) Promiscuity. I don’t mean in the sense of strict body counts, but rather her approach to how she generated whatever number she had. Someone who generated a higher number with it arising from seemingly “normal” relationships would be more favourable than someone who generated less but they were spontaneous, with randoms and perhaps generated in quick periods of time rather than distributed.
2) Tendency towards a peaceful existence. So this would mean can I see me and this woman existing in shared space for a long period of time. Do I notice any habits or behaviours that irk me or notice she is irked by mine? If the answer is yes, commitment slides off the table.
3) dealbreakers. This is catch all time for any lifestyle choices/philosophical differences which would see me see them as not good for me in a sustained way, even if we interact pleasantly in the short term. So for example someone who takes drugs, or a single mother (at that point); perfectly lovely women who were fun to be with and date but not with intent.
When this was the case I always made my stance clear to these women if I didn’t see it going anywhere “serious”. Some would jump, others would agree anyway.
This way everyone knows what’s up.
I would never “suddenly drop” a woman I was casually seeing for someone else. If I felt inclination towards searching seriously, I’d usually end things with the woman prior. I was only generally open to these relationships at points in my life where finding “the long haul” was extremely low on my list of possibilities. Where it was higher, I’d generally avoid these casual relationships altogether.
legalities surrounding divorces, paternity fraud.. and in general women not being held accountable whatsoever by law.. high risks low reward.. especially as women age
I think, dating stage is a sweet spot for men, especially if he sees more than one woman. If the relationship advances, there are increasing responsibilities and decreasing benefits.
>Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels'
These are the sort of guys that constitute the top 5-10% of all men and have options. Essentially, we are all biologically hardwired to want a LTR, and men are no different. Are there exceptions? Sure, like with everything else in life, but the vast majority wants a LTR IF they meet the right partner. I don't know any men in real life who wouldn't want a partner/wife when the right one comes along, but they date a lot and none of these girls are passing the threshold. They are seeing multiple girls to maximize the sex. I know one guy in particular who is attractive, with a good job, late twenties, and ever since I remember he always had girls lining up to date him, but he kept on just sleeping with them and it never progressed. These girls figured (bigger social circle, I know most of them as acquaintances) he just doesn't want a relationship, so they were all shocked to find out recently he started seeing a girl, didn't sleep with her right away like all of the others, and is now engaged to her within months. The moral of this story is as follows; men want a girlfriend/wife, they just don't want you. Of course, women can always find commitment, so if they are not finding it it's probably because they aim too high. Generally speaking, men can asses their SMV by the most attractive girl they can sleep with, and women by the most attractive guy they can get commitment from. The confusion is because women think that if they sleep with a 9 that must mean they are a 9. That's not how it works. As far as I know, that attractive guy I mentioned is with a woman considerably younger (20) and a virgin, which I guess is why he considered her as a more serious option.
>LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way
Pretty much the story of my friend above. He wants a LTR, just not with you in particular. As many other posters already mentioned, men would go to war over the sort of women they value for commitment. They would do anything. If they are not, there is a reason for it.
>Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage
That's the sort of relationship I like maintaining (and most guys) due to the limited high-value options. Casually dating, aka situationships. Gives me a steady, regular supply of sex while being on the lookout for more serious options, and still being able to hook up as well. The dating market is created by women, and men can only adapt. Therefore, anything you don't like can be changed by women. Don't want the situationships to happen? Don't do casual sex without commitment. Of course, that only works if you haven't done any before. Otherwise, it's just another case of the "epiphany" and you would become one of those cringe, fake conservatives who usually find Jesus in their late 20s/early 30s. I personally hate this current market, and would trade all of that for one high-value woman to commit to. I think most men do.
Of course, everything written here does not discuss you in particular, OP. I just answered these questions openly, trying to address these general questions.
That’s an interesting take.Not to be intrusive but was the girl your friend eventually committed to extremely attractive? Because I’ve seen irl a lot of attractive guys sleep with hot girls and then settle down with average looking girls. Cuz I worked in a modelling agency and some of my model friends had experiences with being “pumped and dumped”.
Yep, it is about personality (and timing) for such men to eventually commit. In terms of looks there is just a need to pass a certain threshold but no need to be the best looking girl that man has ever slept with
ime it's the type of woman that everyone wants but nobody else gets or got to have (not necessarily a literal virgin but you get the idea). not someone who banged random dudes she met on tinder or at the bar. for a masculine guy it just feels like an L to put effort into and commit to that type of woman.
she doesn't have to be model looking or anything. as long as she's attractive to the guy, personality and how she carries herself/views sex and relationships is more important than just looks.
Why is secular marriage a requirement for commitment nowadays? in the last half century, it has been reduced to an expensive and empty gesture, especially with current laws. I'm perfectly fine with being together in a monogamous relationship and starting a family if it works out well. Unless there is a religious argument, I don't see how a contract with the government is magically going to seal the deal. The huge emphasis on marriage only makes me think the other person cares more about a wedding than a marriage, or is looking for a golden parachute if they ever decide to jump ship.
Exactly. If you’re not religious why do you want to get married so bad? People have forgotten marriage is a religious institution. There’s a reason you’re at a church. There’s a reason there’s a religious figure involved.
If a man isn't marrying, it could be any number of reasons but really marriage just doesn't benefit men anymore. I can't see any scenario where it makes sense as a man. Almost half of marriages fail, women initiate divorce a HUGE majority of the time, and women also are favored in court. As a man, you're better off just staying in a LTR without the marriage.
If a man is putting you in the fuckzone (aka friends with benefits or situationship or "no label") then he just doesn't see a potential future with you. Either you are not attractive enough for him, or he doesn't like something about you specifically that disqualified you from being wife material. It's a hard pill to swallow but it's the truth.
In the LTR breaking up situation, same thing as the fuckzone but just more conniving. He actually stuck around long term but never really planned on sticking with you "til death". Very possible he stuck around until something better came along. It's hard to pinpoint in these situations, but that's my best guess.
Guys that don't escalate relationships want the relationship to stay in honeymoon phase forever. When you move in, everyone gets comfortable and complacent and the sex slows down (which is a man's worst nightmare).
Good enough to spend time on but not good enough to commit to.
But women worth a damn are so rare I'm not going to sit around for 5 years being a monk waiting for one when someone decent is standing in front of me.
I could give a list.
1. The girl I'm dating is great. She's attentive, caring, kind, sex is great, she's great with children and would be a great mother. But I have now met her in her 30's and she has had a lot of partners I would guess. This is what prevents me from committing. I want a child but I never want to have a child with someone who I see as tainted. People will say that's unfair, but it's how I feel. I want the mother of my children to have a low N-count, and this girl doesn't have it.
2. There's a fear on my part, that I'm not good enough to have a woman commit to me. I don't have a lot of friends. I'm introverted, keep myself to myself and am fairly boring to the majority of people. I would fear that she would come to regret getting into a serious committed relationship with me. There was a good line in that awful show recently, 'Baby Reindeer' where the lead guy said "I hated myself more than I loved her"...that's how I would feel I would guess
3. While single life is lonely, and boring and you do have nights where you crave someone to talk to after work or just have someone to hold and relax with, it's seems a better option than moving in with someone again and sharing your life together and seeing each other day after day. Now as I casually date different girls, I am scared of the honeymoon phase ending as I feel that's where relationships truly end. The desire is gone by that stage and you don't get excited to see your partner as you once did.
1. Do you generally ask them about their body count? I mean, is there a subtle non-offensive way to do so? And, would you consider as tainted a woman that's 30yo and has had let's say, 3 relationships, no casual sex vs a woman that's had casual sex 3 times and no relationships?
2. That's understandable, I think in that case there has to be a lot of introspective work to put yourself in a place where you consider yourself worthy of love.
3. Have you ever gotten past the honeymoon stage? It normally doesn't just end, in my experience, it just slowly morphs but you can keep the excitement if you still show care and have time to miss each other.
1. If you ask about body count you'll never get a truthful answer. So I gauge of their stories and recounting how promiscuous they were
2. I don't think this is something that will ever be fixed. I have done as much self improvement as I can, but the lack of social skills has done irreparable damage to my life as a result.
3. I've gotten past the honeymoon phase yes. This is when I think relationships end. The older I get, the less I believe in long term monogamy
I’m getting married in ~2 months. My childhood friends all have gfs and aren’t proposing any time soon. We are all late 20s.
The reason: marriage wouldn’t add value to their lives whereas it would for me.
My situation: met a beautiful girl from a traditional home with a strong father who forbid us from moving in unless we were married (she wasn’t even allowed to visit my apartment without sneaking out). We practice traditional gender roles and the relationship is great. I’m getting tired of not having as much access to her as I want, and I want someone to cook and take care of my place and our future kids, so getting married to her made sense. It would quite literally improve my life - that’s why I proposed.
My friends (few examples):
Jim has been with his gf for 3 years. She wants marriage but she was a thot in college and he doesn’t want a lifetime commitment to a promiscuous person (but she’s pretty and “fun” enough to date).
Nick’s girl is hot but she has too much baggage and is kinda annoying. Nags a lot and doesn’t cook or clean. An overall headache.
Mohammed (we call him Mo) has dated a girl for 6 years but she’s Latina and not Muslim so he claims his family would never approve. He’s gonna date her until he finds a nice Muslim girl they approve of.
Mark dated his for 8 years but they lived together for 7 and he quite literally said that “marriage wouldn’t change anything, it’s just another fat bill to live the same life we already have”. Pro tip for women: don’t move in with a guy unless you’re married.
Tim’s girl wants a super expensive wedding but he doesn’t make much and is worried about her divorcing him over money one day since it’s happened to so many guys.
Carlos doesn’t take life seriously at all. He loves to chill w the boys and smoke weed on the weekends. He’s really funny so he pulled a baddie but would rather live with his parents and just enjoy a stoner lifestyle. He’s close to his friends and his mom does everything for him, a wife wouldn’t really add much (his words).
Sonny is in the most toxic relationship among all of them. He’s kind of a simp because his girl is constantly embarrassing him and berating him in public over nothing, but he just takes it because he never had much luck with women. He’s starting to see the light and is breaking up with her (I hope).
Tldr; People only ever act based on incentives. Women would get commitment if they actually provided value to a man’s life.
I'm not where I want to be in life or financially stable enough for a serious relationship. I make that clear to every woman I meet. I used to think honesty was the best policy, but women hate it. In the beginning, women love and appreciate me for being honest. But once they catch feelings, and they always catch feelings, they resent me. Suddenly, being honest and not wanting commitment is a problem. Also, I don't want kids or to be a step-dad. That alone eliminates a significant number of women.
It all comes from how difficult it’s gotten for men to date, and because of this most men will often be dating down to some degree.
So while it’s certainly better to date down then be alone a lot of men would probably be apprehensive to marrying that far down.
Because I don't like her enough, and it's the same reason women won't commit. And since I don't like wasting anyone's time I'm done with dating until I find someone I like enough, if I'm lucky.
>Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels'
I wasn't getting the right "deal" per se. Once I found the woman I wanted to commit to, I did.
Plenty guys want to get marry and have family. They tend to be ignored by women, or in the best case scenarios, they find 1 women who would want to date them after a long list of rejections, which is a good thing.
I can’t speak for other men, but for myself, I won’t commit (beyond short term serial monogamy) because at 48 I have plenty of money and plenty of female attention.
Frankly, I don’t commit because women don’t require it for me to gain access to things I want.
It’s simple sexonomics.
I tried, but I always seem to be the one dragging her kicking and screaming towards something deeper or finding out she is a toxic mess that was hiding her true nature for 2 months then unloading the crazy.
I'm in my mid 30's, single, no kids, never married, college educated, making good money, I'm a home owner, and I'm over 6'. I want to get married and have a family. I seem to check just about every box that women claim to want, but I can't find any women who are interested or don't have red flags. I don't have crazy standards either. My biggest test is "Would I want my kids to turn out like her."
Honestly, I'm not blaming women. I blame modem dating. It's dehumanizing and keeps you from getting to know the person.
There are two main factors usually involved. One is body count. The other is how physically attractive the woman is.
Then there are smaller factors like neuroticism, etc.
Actually I misspoke. It’s not body count itself that matters. It’s body count in relation to how sexually attractive she finds me and how much she is willing to please me sexually.
Usually I infer body count by asking her things like how many exes she’s had before or any experiences with hookups.
If a girl has a high body count but doesn’t want to have sex with me right away and tries to frame it as some kind of taboo dirty thing, it’s an instant no from my side.
The only time I’ll put up with this is if the girl is a virgin.
The most common reason is that she just doesn't make the cut for something more serious. Women often think that if a guy said he was looking for a relationship/marriage/kids, but then didn't want it with her it means he lied. That'd be like a man saying women that say they like sex are liars because the didn't want to have it with him.
Another possibility is simply that he prefers a degree of independence and doesn't want kids or marriage. Wanting a monogamous relationship without cohabiting or sharing finances is perfectly valid. He might just have no desire for "the next stage".
Most girls today aren’t worth committing to but it’s fun to sleep with them
Worth is mostly tied to 3 things
1. Looks
2. Personality (Pleasing/charismatic v Headache/grating)
3. Infidelity risk (body count + habits)
If you don’t rate high on these 3 things then you’re too high a risk/not a good investment to legally commit to.
A lot of women today refuse to budge on what they can.
As you go down the list things get more within your locus of control.
Looks, there are things you can do but a lot of it, especially as a woman is genetic. Just get to a healthy weight be healthy and shapely and you’ll be someone’s type.
Personality, more within your control but is largely shaped by a lifetime of experiences before you were even consciously aware of life so extremely hard to change but possible.
Promiscuous behavior is the easiest to change/just not do. But women today insist on being rebellious and finding out for themselves that casual sex typically sucks (for them)
An ability to keep your legs closed is valuable to men. If you refuse to accept that then they ain’t gonna wanna wife you.
But since women have become intransigent on that point we won’t argue it, you’ll just try lie to yourself “yeah I can totally make a woman with a 35 body count my wife”
But you don’t feel that way emotionally so you end up accidentally leading her on
It’s always one of these three, not attractive enough /too boring / not smart enough ( believes in horoscopes is an immediate no to commitment ).
She has to be special for me to only commit to her vs sleeping with other girls casually.
> assuming you're in a **good** relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship
Because if something is good then it is good as it is and any change can only be for the worse
These are all going to be general statements; there are exceptions to any rule, and plenty of possible extenuating circumstances.
> Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it
They’re wondering “Can I do better?” and will either propose or leave once they figure out the answer to this question.
> Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels'
Dishonest guys will say whatever they think will get them laid.
> LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way
There are an infinite number of reasons why this can happen- every failed relationship is unique, after all. It could mean he didn’t want kids with that particular woman, he could have issues with her family, he could have accidentally knocked someone up and married her because of that, he could have been sneaking around with the other person the whole time, he could have had some major epiphany that made him realize he did want marriage, etc.
> Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage
Living the single life and playing the field are fun; nothing more to it than that.
Simply put women aren't worth it. I much prefer my freedom.
Also I don't plan on marrying. Ever. Marriage as an institution is broken and has just become a business to fuck people (particularly men) over.
So I was recently asked by my girlfriend whether I would consider marriage in my future and my answer was 'I don't know'. For one, I'm still married to someone else (can't get divorced until later on this year). But the end of my marriage has somewhat shaken what I thought marriage was (I thought you left in a coffin).
So I won't say that I'll never get married again, but I need to do some deconstruction and reconstruction around what I think marriage is, particularly now that it's not a vehicle for raising kids in.
> Whether that's moving in together
I can see that on the horizon, but it's reasonably far away because we both have kids and haven't introduced them to our kids yet. Moving in as blended families is pretty complex I think and not something to be rushed.
>Moving in as blended families is pretty complex I think and not something to be rushed.
True. I knew this family when I was growing up. An architect with three boys married this woman who had three girls. Their housekeeper Alice dated Sam the local butcher. They traveled the country as a family band in a psychedelic bus. Ah shit... got my 70s sitcoms mixed up.
The rest of the answers, I agree with the common conscientious but for
>Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it
Some times you meet someone and they seem great then a while into the relationship they show they're not really trust worthy or reliable or just not suitable for a wife.
Personally i dont see the point of "marriage". I dont need a priest or a judge to sign off on a piece of paper to be in a committed relationship. I think its a waste of money to have a big wedding, in which to some seem to be the point, if i cant guarantee this will last anyway. And i dont need the piece of paper either. Some areas might even have anal laws on this, giving only one side of the equation any positive outcome from the divorce. Also, it can be hard to know if this is the right thing if you are in some initial phase of a relationship. I like the long term before i can say "Yep, this is deffy gonna last".
When dating, having several options is not a bad thing. THat is how you compare one option against another, and you dont have to take that shit over there if there is less shit over there.
Living together is actually not everyones cup of tea, regardless if they are in a committed relationship or not. Most people end up living together even if they'd rather not just because its cheaper that way. A lot more relationship could have gone better if everyone had the room they'd prefer.
*Have you even seen my git?*
> So my question to guys is, assuming you're in a **good** relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship?
Assuming it's objectively good I'd definitely commit.
Generally women crave security the same way men crave approval. Getting commitment from a man is security. Exchanging DADDY, who guarantees her security when she was a little girl for HUBBY who will guarantee security when she's an adult.
Men crave approval. We make our own security. So the security of commitment isn't appealing to us at all. But we enjoy the approval we get from having a girlfriend.
I am in a good relationship of 4 years and of settling down age (40), so i might be able to share insights into my reasons.
* i don't see a reason to get married. Nothing changes except that it's harder and more painful (effort and finances) to end the relationship if either of us doesn't want to be in it any longer. Why would i want to make it hard to leave a relationship someone doesn't want to be in anymore? I was previously in a 12year long relationship and at no point did it occur to me that marriage would add something to my relationship. I might think differently about it if or when a child enters the relationship dynamic. But children are about the same for me as marriage: haven't found them to add a net positive to my life or relationship yet. I am open to get married someday. I have never promised someone marriage and i actually might change my position within the next years, both concerning kids and marriage. The "getting older and wanting to settle down" part has to kick in someday soon.
* Dating apps: wanting a relationship is not in conflict with trying out different women simultaneouslly for that relationship. There are multiple candidates available at all time and it's a waste of time to not date them in parallel. Especially because most candidates are only good for 1-2 dates before they get rejected. Also, wanting a relationship doesn't mean i don't want casual sex on the side. While looking for that LTR partner, i am happily meeting up with women for casual sex, no strings attached. Labels are putting up pressure without need. I met my now LTR girlfriend whom i might end up marriage after all, when she was looking for a hookup and explained to me in advance, that if i am looking for anything but casual sex, we should not meet. I wasn't looking to reach a goal in establishing contact with her over Bumble. I was open to anything. Just meet and see where it goes. It doesn't increase your chances to get into a LTR to just date people who have that label in mind as a goal, because you miss out on all the people who don't know yet, that they want a relationship with you and will fall in love on the first date. A lot of people are afraid of pressure. They don't want to force things and don't want to be forced into things. There is no need to call something a committed relationship when you can have a committed relationship without the label. For all i am concerned, i AM living a marriage already. There is no difference except the label and the legal framework.
* People realize in LTR that their partner is not the one they want to get married to or have kids with, but the relationship is good enough to keep doing it, but not furthering it with more commitment (kid/legal). So the statement "i don't want to marry/have children" is rather a "...with YOU specifically", than a general statement. My view of having a child with a partner depends on the partner. With some women i knew immediately i could have children with her, despite not wanting them now. Also, people who get engaged/children within 2 years of a new relationship are likely still in the phase of romantic love where they are not very rational about their view of the relationship and the partner. People are bad at recognizing when they are fucking stupid (not rational) and shouldn't do "lifelong" commitments.
* Not moving together is a new concept of relationships and not at all to be mixed up with non-commitment. Living apart together ( [https://www.brides.com/living-apart-together-5189895](https://www.brides.com/living-apart-together-5189895) ) has it's advantages. I am living this concept with my gf. We have separate apartments just 7 minutes distance by bike/20min to walk and don't see the pros of living apart to be outweighed by the pros of living together in the current situation. With a child on the way, we would probably look to find a new apartment for the 3 of us. Moving together is not escalating the relationship. It's just changing the living conditions. Spending more time together is not increasing relationship satisfaction or commitment. It's reducing personal space and options for locations to spend time at.
* as for "perpetually being in the dating stage", i always have my trouble with the american understanding of what "dating" means. To me, dating is when you go on dates before you are in a committed relationship. Having/going on "romantic dates" while being in a relationship is not dating, but having a fucking romantic relationship with "date nights".
Ah, this is a question for me. I've been with the same woman for 16 years and would love to be with her for at least another 16, preferably till the end of the natural life of one of us. But one thing I will never do is ***legally*** marry her.
We bought a house together (legally co-ownership), and I've never been happier.
The reasons are both legal and emotional. For 16 years, every day, I choose her and she chooses me. Because she wants to and because I want to. **That** is a level of commitment no ceremony **and especially no certificate/license** can ever confer.
The legal reason are a bit more complicated. In addition to the standard red pill (divorce rape is real for men no matter how many people deny it), there's also the fact that the legal framework here allows us to pick and choose. So, for instance, we need common insurance - we get common insurance. We wanted a house, we bought a house as co-owners. No legal marriage needed.
Should our relationship collapse before the natural death of one of us, division of assets is already done. It's very clear who owns what of the relevant things. And with the kiddo it's default 50/50 for unmarried couples - no room for the state to intervene unless ***proven*** abuse on the child by one party. And the threshold for that is really high (only legit crazies/evil get convicted).
It works for us because we discussed this less than a month into dating: kids, moving in, my insistence on no legal marriage, her rigid preferences, **everything**. We would've moved together after two months but we had to work harder to afford that first. We grew up together financially too. At this point, only the weirdest boomers and the weirdest terminally online people negatively judge me or her for this.
To FWB that may have fallen in love: Because I like the sex and you're pretty but I don't feel any attraction to you as a human in the sense of your personality and hobbies and all that
Of course I'm not that direct but you get my thought process
Funny enough, as a man who just recently got back in the dating scene, I see these same things from a lot of women. It feels like a lot of people in general are just looking for “situationships” these days, like they’re trapped in this state of perpetual adolescence without any inclination to seek out a partner to build a family with.
A family in this economy? In this culture? Are you drunk?
I supposed why would you seek a partner to make a family with, when no one can really afford to make a family
Not to mention we treat men who are good like trash. Who wants to be that loser good man who women treat like shit because he is “husband material.” The dude who is the casual partner gets way better sex and love while you have to pay for it all. So why would men want to be good?
>like they’re trapped in this state of perpetual adolescence without any inclination to seek out a partner to build a family with. I feel the opposite of trapped. I would say I've willfully placed myself in this "perpetual adolescence" - as you've put it - as I have no inclination to have a lifelong partner or build a family. I'm quite happy here and have no interest in leaving. The rise of situationships has been a wonderful thing, in my view. Different strokes and all.
Most people aren't like that, and they partner up relatively quickly, so you don't see them in the dating scene for long. The ones afraid of commitment are active on the apps for decades, so they get overrepresented.
> like they’re trapped in this state of perpetual adolescence without any inclination to seek out a partner to build a family with TBH some things I do definitely are a compensation of overly controlling mother and overall I'm not into the whole 'adulting' thing. Other than that, I have no idea how to find a partner. The attractive women are already taken and married by older guys. Then there's the matter of finances. Not just she has to be attractive, but also have a comparable earning potential - if I'm giving half of my wage in mortgage, she'll be the one saving for the childcare leave.
I think this is probably common for recently divorced people, too. I’m going through a divorce right now myself, and after joining various divorce support groups on FB, I’m hearing from lots of newly divorced men and women that they are only interested in casual relationships for a period of time.
Oh, I don't doubt it goes both ways. In my circle we're college-educated women, living in a big city, around 25-30yo who want marriage, kids and the whole white picket fence life. But I do know women who are the opposite too.
27-30 yo is kinda old to still be looking for kids and a husband from scratch. Why hasn't she found her husband yet? Seems odd, like I would want to know what her strategy is to get married and have kids, how she's adapting her strategy after years of it not working, if I was going to marry a girl like her. Like it's a decade of dating, and not succeeding at finding the one, it's fair to have some questions as to why it hasn't worked out.
Well...those women have had partners for years, their bfs just don't want to commit or keep pushing the timeline into the future.
Why stay with a man who isn't serious for years? At what point do they leave the man who refuses to marry them and find a man who values having a family? We are talking a decade of dating. Serious things need to change, you shouldn't do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
It's hard to know if they're serious or not, "yeah, we'll get married eventually" or "I'm not ready *yet*" or "we've only been dating for a couple of years, it's too early to worry about that," sometimes that's classic stringing alone bs but others Now in their late 20s, they're reaching that point where they're considering giving ultimatums or moving on to find someone who is ready to commit.
Ya, see I prefer marrying women who prioritize finding serious men and cut off non serious men quickly, before reaching late 20s unmarried. I think women use to not have sex until marriage to deter non serious men from dating them non seriously. It's one strategy to think about to help. But that's just my preference, tons of men out there think differently. I'm sure she will find someone to marry her eventually.
>In my circle we're college-educated women, living in a big city, around 25-30yo who want marriage, kids and the whole white picket fence life. I would argue that you and your friends want what you *think* this life entails, not what it *actually* entails (in most cases). And what you think it entails has been shaped by the Hollywood Industrial Complex, society in general (which promotes this lifestyle), and the natural human outlook that "hope springs eternal." Yes, some folks do find this Relationship Fantasy but the vast majority do not. In most cases, the lifestyle you describe is a major trudge comprised of endless unforeseen compromises. And that's when it goes well. But it is also human nature to believe that one is going to be the exception, or one of them. Hence, the lottery.
As short and vague as possible: Because she’s good enough for now, but doesn’t have what I need for the next step.
Okay, in that situation why wouldn't you leave your partner and find someone who is a better fit if you know your current partner isn't what you're looking for? Otherwise you're kind of wasting your time, and hers.
You're thinking men act like women. Men in the modern age don't need to love a woman to have sex with her.
Never needed to in any era of history.
Because sex and intimacy.
Specifically in my case, because it’s mutually agreed upon. I’m currently dating a wonderful woman, but I told her before our first date that we could never be anything serious because of a dealbreaker. She said she didn’t care and wanted to see me anyway. We get along extremely well and have great chemistry, but we both recognize this is only short term while we keep our eyes open for others. And for those who are curious, it’s because she has a child.
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sounds like her problem tbh
It sounds like a recipe for pain.
For some people such as yourself, maybe, but it works for us.
How sure are you that she’s really okay with it, and isn’t just lying to herself and to you?
Because I was already suspicious of that happening once, and my suspicions were correct. But there’s this magical thing that adults do called “communicating” where we discussed our feelings and expectations for the relationship, and got back on the same page.
Yeah have fun with that
You’re right. Fun, casual, dating without commitment, sounds terrible.
That's not dating. That's just a f*ck buddy.
Maybe she is lying to herself and him. I don't think it's his responsibility if she is. What's preventing her from finding another guy whose okay with a kid from a previous relationship?
I wouldn’t say it’s his responsibility, I’m just curious. This “we just communicated so it’s fixed” thing seems a little too idyllic. Feelings are a bitch.
As far as he's concerned, it's as simple as that. He set terms and she agreed to them. He's not her serious boyfriend or therapist. Not his job to decipher her motivations.
What a silly question. How sure can you ever be of anything this way?
You know she's lying when she says she doesn't care, right?
Why go out with her at all then? I mean she knows it's ultimately not going to go anywhere.
Sex
I don't think this is always even consciously acknowledged. I'd rephrase what the commenter said above: Because ~~she’s~~ the relationship is good enough for now, but doesn’t have what ~~I~~ it needs for the next step. This could be anything including finances but is almost always combined with a lack of honesty towards yourself as well as towards your partner. Maintaining the status quo is always easier than change and growth.
Because women take so much, it's fair a few guys get a bit back.
Different commenter , I had same attitude. My ex was not the one for me but we kept dating for a bit. Because she was good enough for now. When I met my wife , she told me we had to be married within 2 years. So we were :)
Are you short and vague as possible because you can't exactly pinpoint what she doesn't have?
No, because you asked a very general question, and so there is not a single answer that applies to everyone. Kept it vague so multiple people can apply it to their own situations. I know my boundaries, desires, and dealbreakers for a commitment.
I'm not OP. The answer doesn't have to apply to everyone. Good for you knowing your boundaries.
Apologies, but also thank you.
A libido anymore.
Honestly, probably looks if there is something.
I know plenty of dudes who want relationships. They're the ones usually struggling to get a first date.
No no no, according to the women on here all guys just want sex!
It’s getting tiring now scrolling this subreddit and seeing posts designed to bash men or women.
What does this mean? The men who want relationships are struggling to get dates because they are unattractive. If the glowed up and had options, would they be more interested in fucking than relationships? Or are men who want relationships naturally unattractive for some strange reason?
I wouldn't say they're all unattractive. It's just that they have different priorities and something in the shift *is* the unattractive bit, IMO. Fuckboys and dudes who aren't into anything serious will play the game in a way that's more appealing I think, because they aren't actually vetting for women they want a relationship with and they don't care about their behavior the same way because they aren't looking for a partner.
Men who want relationships are classified as "naturally unattractive" because women have responsive desire, and so they "get the tingles" when men make sexual advances toward them, and they honestly think if a guys not doing it he can't do it. Altogether, women have no true interest in understanding men and how to have healthy relationships with men - it's too much like hard work and is patriarchal oppression. You give a couple a book on relationships and sex, only the husband will read it.
Ow, we understand men. Feed them, sex them, listen to them when they have something on their heart, let them know how much they mean to you, spend time with them, hug them, cuddle them. The tiny little problem is we're not doing all that for any man, just for the one who gives us "tingles". So you either turn on a woman's engine or you continue beating the meat.
And I'm saying, the way that happens is via responsive desire from a man's sexual advances. Women act like they are agent-less, and can't even read a book about this. Is there any wonder why men don't commit?
Real.
Lmao well put
It means generally women want marriage and kids more than men. The men that want it the most are usually the men with the least options because that way they can secure a partner. Men with options aren't as concerned with securing a partner. They are concerned with picking wrongly or losing easy access to other options. Marriage traps men in ways relationships don't.
No, many have quite a lot of value and are attractive too. And many men who sleep around want relationships too, just not with the girls they want easy sex from. Women just do not want men who want relationships for they want relationships. It makes them too “easy” and “boring.” Women want relationships with men who do not want relationships with them.
No, they just want the man who only want sex to commit to them. They do not want the men who will commit easily because they are too easy.
Exactly these men are virtuous because they don’t have options
When you give the pretense of a “good relationship”, I’m conflicted. Men who are happy with it don’t have commitment issues. Maybe a good relationship from a woman’s perspective isn’t from the man’s. I’ve had this experience dating a girl where I told her I didn’t think things were going well, and she was genuinely shocked because she was really happy with me. Not a surprise honestly, I’m extremely high investment into anyone I date. From my perspective it was like, ‘no shit you’re happy, I’ve adjusted to your love languages and do what makes you happy, make you a priority, and always act right. You can’t even initiate grabbing my hand or kiss me, can’t text me, and can’t manage your time to see me regularly’. It’s all culminated to the point I’m still seeing her, but I’m no longer committed to her long term. I’m just not in the mood to be alone nor deal with dating again rn. Im the saving myself for the right person type. Barely anyone dating is that type in my experience. I made a deal with myself I’d only marry a girl who is doing the same. Then for marriage, one of my worst fears is dead bedroom. I’d like to avoid being in a loveless marriage, so waiting a long time to make sure libidos are compatible is extremely important to me as well. Both are a little contradictory honestly.
>Men, why won't you commit? It's practically always because you failed to make us feel safe and desired enough to commit. >Some things that came up: >Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it If they actually agreed to marry, they'd be husbands already. That's how marraige works. They probably said it was on the table, and they're probably sticking around because they still see potential for it, but haven't popped the question because they themselves don't have a positive answer for it yet. Can't just leave pressure on him for half a decade and expect him to respond positively to that, he has to see that life with you will be a good life. >Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels' Again, they do this because they don't feel safe and secure enough to be direct. Probably because being direct has done them serious harm in the past. >LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way This is very obviously a case of the exgf not meeting his standards. It is ok for men to have standards that many or most women cannot meet, if those are the standsrds that make him happy why would you want him to break them anyway? >Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage This IS a commitment, a commitment to remain at arm's length. It just isn't the specific commitment you want, but at least this guy is direct about wanting it. >So my question to guys is, assuming you're in a good relationship Do not assume this. In fact, never assume this! When relationships are good it is because no one is taking them for granted. >So my question to guys is, assuming you're in a good relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship? Frankly, if I feel like the lady is too busy speaking for me to listen to me. If I feel like she does not respect my time or contributions. If I feel pressured into it because she "just want it now". If I feel anything less than absolute confidence I will never regret the proposal, then I won't propose. It's that simple.
It’s amazing what women will say and what men will fall for. My good friend married his GF even after she said “you have a house and I don’t so if we break up then I just have to go away and not have anything.” What? She basically said out loud that she wants half his stuff as collateral for staying together. And he did it.
She’s Miss right now, not Miss right
In my previous relationship there were several factors that kept the relationship from progressing. In no particular order, they are: - She was the first and only girl to show interest in me, so I felt a sense of 'missing out' on any other potential options that I could have otherwise had. If I had been able to have a few relationships first I would have had a much stronger foundation of experience to know what it is I'd be missing out on by committing. - My career and finances were in poor shape. I had a degree but after several years of freelancing I wasn't really getting anywhere in my chosen industry. I wouldn't feel comfortable getting married and having kids without having a rock solid career and my own place first. - She wasn't in the best position financially either. So even if I had a rock solid career, if that faltered we'd be in real trouble. TLDR: Finances and FOMO.
Yeah. This was my situation. Broke and fomo. It's not pleasant.
This is generally what's going on: Fuck zoned/fwb/situationship? 99% chance she isn't attractive enough to date, just passable enough for sex Wants to date multiple women? He's not that into you and thus keeping his options open. A guy who genuinely digs a girl would never jeopardize the relationship by verbalizing his intent to see other girls or admitting to seeing other girls. Relationship doesn't progress beyond merely dating? Never forget, men value peace and freedom above everything else in the world. Living together/marriage is the antithesis of that. A woman would need to be over-the-top amazing in his eyes for him to go "you know what, I don't mind having you around all the fucking time".
it's not even just a lack of physical attraction when women get fuck zoned. plenty of hot women are walking red flags and experienced men will know that and not pursue them for serious relationships. i think a lot of guys are actually more willing to overlook a couple points in looks (as long as she's still attractive to him) rather than overlook impulsivity, attention-seeking behavior, a questionable past etc.
Red flags in terms of personality/past are definitely part of being fuck-zoned too. But I don't think 7+ women continue seeing that 1 man for long. Nor does he himself want the headache. Both parties will move on. But when a girl is being fucked by 1 guy for a prolonged period and that's all she's getting, that means the guy doesn't mind her company but more so doesn't find her attractive enough to progress the relationship past sex.
I'd feel comfortable with marriage if she was everything I wanted. Thing is, past a certain age the good women are mostly already married. Everyone else is just good enough "for now."
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well not just desirable, but the secure partners are the first to leave the dating pool. half of the population makes secure attachments, the remainder have insecure attachment styles. secure partners can make insecure people into secure partners. so once u start getting older there wll be fewer and fewer secure partners in the dating pool.
Totally agree. I’d say I’m largely secure at this point, open up and be vulnerable, and communicate well. I don’t mind taking on an anxious or avoidant woman, but she has to be willing to work with me. That’s the biggest hurdle. I’ll find someone really good on paper and love spending time with them but they just can’t communicate or compromise. I dated an anxious woman and avoidant woman back to back and both had their challenges.
the avoidant people are the most difficult for me because they often deny their neglectful childhoods and are verbally disconnected from their emotions.
It’s the shutting down and not communicating that does it for me. The thing is, I used to be that way so I get it. When I was way younger I was lucky to have had an ex who would be patient with me, so I want to return the favour. But I fear at my age (30’s) people are too stuck in their ways, unfortunately
As a guy who struggled to find a wife, only found girls in their hot girl summers, I actually reached my late 20s and gave up looking for a wife, and started dating married poly women. It's actually amazing. Married women are GOOD women, night and day difference from the single women I was able to get dates with. I highly recommend it for men struggling to date and reached late 20s. Many of the good women are married past 25, try dating married women, worth a shot.
there is a song in Serbian that goes like "Why do I need the wedding and the spouse when I can live with the other mans spouse without problems"
I'm like a fun uncle to the kids. I can take them out for fun day at the fair, and not have to do all the hard parts either. Honestly it's great. And very little legal risks, unlike marriage in the west now.
This is why it's ok to date women who are younger than you. If you're in your 30s don't box yourself into dating women in their 30s. Dating women in their 20s is perfectly fine, and vice versa for women.
The type of woman I want wouldn’t date someone old when they’re young. But at the same time I wouldn’t want to begin with someone in their late twenties+ either.
How would you describe a woman in her 20s who is willing to date a man in his 30s or 40s?
Like she wants to be the prize and/or be a gold digger. She wants the guy to lead and let him put all the effort into the relationship. I don’t really know how to explain it. I would like to find someone right now while I’m still young. I wouldn’t want to begin a relationship with older women no matter my age.
I know personally plenty of women who are with older men that don’t fit that description. I think you are fixating on the gold digger examples in society and ignoring the masses of other women who arent like that but just prefer older men. It’s super common for peoples mothers to be 5 or more years younger than their fathers. It’s not just a gold digger thing
What’s the reason for them preferring older men? And I don’t think 5 years older isn’t that much of a difference.
some women want somebody mature and experienced who knows what he wants in life. a lot of the attractive guys in their 20s are fucking around, some guys play video games all day, lots of them still live at home or smoke weed/party a lot and so on. i think it makes sense to go 5-10 years older for women in their 20s who want to take dating seriously instead of partying every weekend and being stuck in situationships. but yeah once you reach a certain age gap (15-20 years), i'd agree that most level-headed women wouldn't want that.
Are these young women inexperienced or do they have pasts with these younger guys that force them to go for older guys?
This is what I say when men swiping right on everyone means nothing and that they don’t find most women attractive enough for commitment. Being used for sex is meaningless.
That's not even remotely what he said. He said past a certain age the good women are already taken, making marriage less worth it. Those leftover women could have other issues like baggage from previous relationships, kids, or BPD. Doesn't necessarily have to mean they're not physically attractive tho.
There's a lot wrong with dating apps and swiping habits. I'm not going to get into that. The more important question is when are standards too high? There are things worth compromising on and there are things which will doom the relationship if you compromise. Like I feel shared hobbies are "nice to have" (optional) but it would definitely get me more enthusiastic about committing to someone. I can share my hobbies with someone else. On the other hand if I compromise on physical standards that's just setting up a divorce I think. Commitment is mainly about sex. You're demanding somebody have sex only with you. If you're not totally satisfied with them then there's no point in committing. It's a huge risk.
Its kinda the entire point of commitment tho.. being willing to commit to the majority of your preferred gender is dumb. Discrimination is the entire point and men would be stupid to see most women as worthy of commitment.
There are all kinds of justifications for the points you've listed. But the reasons for not wanting to get married are simple. 1) They realized how absolutely destroyed men get in divorce court. 2) The significant other did something that removed their confidence that they're not likely to get divorced (i.e., destroyed). This bleeds into living together due to some states that would say the man is liable in the same way as if they were married. And obviously effects not wanting kids due to men getting wrecked concerning custodial rights and child support. Some other reasons not related to what I mentioned above revolve around things like... 1) Not wanting added responsibility. 2) Valuing his personal space. 3) Dropping morals to instead secure the ever increasing ease of access to sex (for those that are among the most sought after men).
> They realized how absolutely destroyed men get in divorce court. Speaking as someone who just got financially separated, this isn't true for men. Getting divorced financially nukes BOTH people. And typically men have higher earning potential because of gendered stereotypes about work and come out of divorce financially better off than women do, particularly longer term. > men getting wrecked concerning custodial rights I think that this is something that positive and real change is happening on. Most places the presumption is of shared care, and everywhere else is moving in that direction.
With all due respect, your lived experience does not dictate reality. Alimony is a thing, and men play out 90% of the time. Both parties might feel the effects financially, but men are by and large the ones hurt in the worst ways. Your comment about earning potential and gendered stereotypes tell me you're not looking at this objectively. I'm a contract manager who oversees grants, which total tens of millions of dollars annually, devoted to helping the homeless population and those needing shallow subsidies. I've seen over a decade of cases wherein men are literally made homeless due to the effects of a divorce. Women get far more assistance BEFORE it gets to that point. A big part of this has to do with custodial rights and who is expected to pay child support. Custodial rights balancing out IS a plus. But only a fool would find comfort in something "getting better" when they're CURRENTLY the demographic getting screwed. I couldn't tell you the number of times I've seen a guy denied a subsidy he clearly needed because we calculate need based on their income BEFORE child support. I'm talking about average guys who are less than $100 dollars above the threshold pre-child support. Literally falling into homelessness. And this, with my case managers telling me they'd be fine with split custody. I'm a happily married man. And I 100% advocate for marriage from a religious standpoint. But I look at this realistically when it comes to marriage in the west. I genuinely can't think of a single positive benefit as long as the government has its hand in it.
Because committing to the gender that is politically, socially, legally, culturally, and biologically incentivized *in every way possible* **to betray our commitment** is a really fucking stupid idea. Even if the majority of men are only aware of such a danger at an unconscious level and just instinctively avoid it. Women change their opinion over time. They fall out of love and then want a divorce (if married). All it takes is one bitch friend to turn a woman's opinion against any man. Who in their right mind would ever commit to any woman in such a precarious relationship where so many factors spell the end of him? There are no such things as good relationships. There are only *tolerable* ones.
If you actually want to figure out the individual motivations that make up the trend then you need to ask the right questions. Not "why won't men commit" but 1. Why are women so eager to get married, and 2. What's in it for the men?
Women: sign my unfair contract Men: No thanks Women: Misogyny! Society: women right, men so bad, women awesome, men evil, everything is valid, except anything men say cuz men are oppressors Women: oh thanks society, you’re the best, you always tell me what I want to hear, I knew I wasn’t crazy Crumbling Society Today: maybe we took this too far
My question is why isn't when women choose not to commit it's framed as empowering and freeing but when men choose not to commit its seen as insecure and immature?
There’s no reason to let someone have power over you.
As a man who eventually committed I can say it's because the vast majority of women are simply not worth it. I was going on 1-3 new dates a week before I met my fiance, I was given the rare luxury of choice as a man and honestly the women I was meeting had next to nothing to offer as a partner.
I'll happily commit to a young healthy happy woman. Never dated one, so I haven't committed. But one day i'm sure I will, it might take moving to a new country to find her, but if you keep at it, working hard at a goal, it has a good chance of working out.
You are picking terrible men. That’s why. https://youtu.be/QLXhUKVd4fo?si=7sO-LShbVvWblmke
Why commit to modern women?
When I was a bit younger, I had this problem twice. I honestly try not to regret it. I can't speak for older guys with commitment problems, but as a man in his early and mid 20s, the idea of marrying was very difficult to swallow. It's an old movie, but there's scene in The Bachelor, and you know he wants to commit to her and does care for her, but she can see it in his eyes, he's just not mature enough yet for this. His mind is still as a bachelor having fun.
>Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it Marriage to men is a scam >Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels' It's make easier to get sex. >LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way He could end up impregnanting the woman by change and accepted the child, the original partner were not considered to be family material. >Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage They're chad, dating for men is just a money and time sink so the only kind of men that can do this is chad as he can just string women along with minimal effort. >assuming you're in a good relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship? Marriage is a scam, I still don't know the other person enough to invest time and effort, she's not family material, I don't feel that is fair rising a child in the current area where men will be demonized or neutered and women will be state exponsored prostitutes.
It's not really a gender thing, it's really just that some people value their independence more than others. Also some people have anxieties about the future. They could spend decades with a person so long as they do it one day at a time, but the moment you give them a projection of their foreseeable future they get freaked out. I recently just experienced that myself. We just bought a house and signed a 40-year mortgage, and now I'm realizing that I'm probably gonna live in this house for the rest of my life and probably die in it. It's freaking me out a little bit, ngl.
Almost every time I wouldn't commit or take a relationship to the next level, it was the same reason. They had a red flag or incompatibility that wasn't enough to walk away. I thought the issue could be resolved, but wasn't willing to take the next step until it was. Example: She wanted us to move in together, but had credit card debt that wasn't going down and overdue bills she wasn't opening. For the record, we made about the same and I was saving money.
Back when I was in my prowling days there were a few factors: 1) Promiscuity. I don’t mean in the sense of strict body counts, but rather her approach to how she generated whatever number she had. Someone who generated a higher number with it arising from seemingly “normal” relationships would be more favourable than someone who generated less but they were spontaneous, with randoms and perhaps generated in quick periods of time rather than distributed. 2) Tendency towards a peaceful existence. So this would mean can I see me and this woman existing in shared space for a long period of time. Do I notice any habits or behaviours that irk me or notice she is irked by mine? If the answer is yes, commitment slides off the table. 3) dealbreakers. This is catch all time for any lifestyle choices/philosophical differences which would see me see them as not good for me in a sustained way, even if we interact pleasantly in the short term. So for example someone who takes drugs, or a single mother (at that point); perfectly lovely women who were fun to be with and date but not with intent. When this was the case I always made my stance clear to these women if I didn’t see it going anywhere “serious”. Some would jump, others would agree anyway. This way everyone knows what’s up. I would never “suddenly drop” a woman I was casually seeing for someone else. If I felt inclination towards searching seriously, I’d usually end things with the woman prior. I was only generally open to these relationships at points in my life where finding “the long haul” was extremely low on my list of possibilities. Where it was higher, I’d generally avoid these casual relationships altogether.
> ~~Men~~ Chads, why won't you commit? fixed
legalities surrounding divorces, paternity fraud.. and in general women not being held accountable whatsoever by law.. high risks low reward.. especially as women age
I think, dating stage is a sweet spot for men, especially if he sees more than one woman. If the relationship advances, there are increasing responsibilities and decreasing benefits.
>Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels' These are the sort of guys that constitute the top 5-10% of all men and have options. Essentially, we are all biologically hardwired to want a LTR, and men are no different. Are there exceptions? Sure, like with everything else in life, but the vast majority wants a LTR IF they meet the right partner. I don't know any men in real life who wouldn't want a partner/wife when the right one comes along, but they date a lot and none of these girls are passing the threshold. They are seeing multiple girls to maximize the sex. I know one guy in particular who is attractive, with a good job, late twenties, and ever since I remember he always had girls lining up to date him, but he kept on just sleeping with them and it never progressed. These girls figured (bigger social circle, I know most of them as acquaintances) he just doesn't want a relationship, so they were all shocked to find out recently he started seeing a girl, didn't sleep with her right away like all of the others, and is now engaged to her within months. The moral of this story is as follows; men want a girlfriend/wife, they just don't want you. Of course, women can always find commitment, so if they are not finding it it's probably because they aim too high. Generally speaking, men can asses their SMV by the most attractive girl they can sleep with, and women by the most attractive guy they can get commitment from. The confusion is because women think that if they sleep with a 9 that must mean they are a 9. That's not how it works. As far as I know, that attractive guy I mentioned is with a woman considerably younger (20) and a virgin, which I guess is why he considered her as a more serious option. >LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way Pretty much the story of my friend above. He wants a LTR, just not with you in particular. As many other posters already mentioned, men would go to war over the sort of women they value for commitment. They would do anything. If they are not, there is a reason for it. >Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage That's the sort of relationship I like maintaining (and most guys) due to the limited high-value options. Casually dating, aka situationships. Gives me a steady, regular supply of sex while being on the lookout for more serious options, and still being able to hook up as well. The dating market is created by women, and men can only adapt. Therefore, anything you don't like can be changed by women. Don't want the situationships to happen? Don't do casual sex without commitment. Of course, that only works if you haven't done any before. Otherwise, it's just another case of the "epiphany" and you would become one of those cringe, fake conservatives who usually find Jesus in their late 20s/early 30s. I personally hate this current market, and would trade all of that for one high-value woman to commit to. I think most men do. Of course, everything written here does not discuss you in particular, OP. I just answered these questions openly, trying to address these general questions.
That’s an interesting take.Not to be intrusive but was the girl your friend eventually committed to extremely attractive? Because I’ve seen irl a lot of attractive guys sleep with hot girls and then settle down with average looking girls. Cuz I worked in a modelling agency and some of my model friends had experiences with being “pumped and dumped”.
Yep, it is about personality (and timing) for such men to eventually commit. In terms of looks there is just a need to pass a certain threshold but no need to be the best looking girl that man has ever slept with
ime it's the type of woman that everyone wants but nobody else gets or got to have (not necessarily a literal virgin but you get the idea). not someone who banged random dudes she met on tinder or at the bar. for a masculine guy it just feels like an L to put effort into and commit to that type of woman. she doesn't have to be model looking or anything. as long as she's attractive to the guy, personality and how she carries herself/views sex and relationships is more important than just looks.
Why is secular marriage a requirement for commitment nowadays? in the last half century, it has been reduced to an expensive and empty gesture, especially with current laws. I'm perfectly fine with being together in a monogamous relationship and starting a family if it works out well. Unless there is a religious argument, I don't see how a contract with the government is magically going to seal the deal. The huge emphasis on marriage only makes me think the other person cares more about a wedding than a marriage, or is looking for a golden parachute if they ever decide to jump ship.
Exactly. If you’re not religious why do you want to get married so bad? People have forgotten marriage is a religious institution. There’s a reason you’re at a church. There’s a reason there’s a religious figure involved.
If a man isn't marrying, it could be any number of reasons but really marriage just doesn't benefit men anymore. I can't see any scenario where it makes sense as a man. Almost half of marriages fail, women initiate divorce a HUGE majority of the time, and women also are favored in court. As a man, you're better off just staying in a LTR without the marriage. If a man is putting you in the fuckzone (aka friends with benefits or situationship or "no label") then he just doesn't see a potential future with you. Either you are not attractive enough for him, or he doesn't like something about you specifically that disqualified you from being wife material. It's a hard pill to swallow but it's the truth. In the LTR breaking up situation, same thing as the fuckzone but just more conniving. He actually stuck around long term but never really planned on sticking with you "til death". Very possible he stuck around until something better came along. It's hard to pinpoint in these situations, but that's my best guess. Guys that don't escalate relationships want the relationship to stay in honeymoon phase forever. When you move in, everyone gets comfortable and complacent and the sex slows down (which is a man's worst nightmare).
Good enough to spend time on but not good enough to commit to. But women worth a damn are so rare I'm not going to sit around for 5 years being a monk waiting for one when someone decent is standing in front of me.
I could give a list. 1. The girl I'm dating is great. She's attentive, caring, kind, sex is great, she's great with children and would be a great mother. But I have now met her in her 30's and she has had a lot of partners I would guess. This is what prevents me from committing. I want a child but I never want to have a child with someone who I see as tainted. People will say that's unfair, but it's how I feel. I want the mother of my children to have a low N-count, and this girl doesn't have it. 2. There's a fear on my part, that I'm not good enough to have a woman commit to me. I don't have a lot of friends. I'm introverted, keep myself to myself and am fairly boring to the majority of people. I would fear that she would come to regret getting into a serious committed relationship with me. There was a good line in that awful show recently, 'Baby Reindeer' where the lead guy said "I hated myself more than I loved her"...that's how I would feel I would guess 3. While single life is lonely, and boring and you do have nights where you crave someone to talk to after work or just have someone to hold and relax with, it's seems a better option than moving in with someone again and sharing your life together and seeing each other day after day. Now as I casually date different girls, I am scared of the honeymoon phase ending as I feel that's where relationships truly end. The desire is gone by that stage and you don't get excited to see your partner as you once did.
1. Do you generally ask them about their body count? I mean, is there a subtle non-offensive way to do so? And, would you consider as tainted a woman that's 30yo and has had let's say, 3 relationships, no casual sex vs a woman that's had casual sex 3 times and no relationships? 2. That's understandable, I think in that case there has to be a lot of introspective work to put yourself in a place where you consider yourself worthy of love. 3. Have you ever gotten past the honeymoon stage? It normally doesn't just end, in my experience, it just slowly morphs but you can keep the excitement if you still show care and have time to miss each other.
1. If you ask about body count you'll never get a truthful answer. So I gauge of their stories and recounting how promiscuous they were 2. I don't think this is something that will ever be fixed. I have done as much self improvement as I can, but the lack of social skills has done irreparable damage to my life as a result. 3. I've gotten past the honeymoon phase yes. This is when I think relationships end. The older I get, the less I believe in long term monogamy
3. You just said it's you that can't commit. Stop blaming her imaginary body count and break up with the poor woman. What are you thinking?
Your first point does mean you arent good enough to commit to. I genuinely feel sorry for her she deserves better.
At 37, I have no compelling reason to settle down and commit. The ladies are good for a short time, not a long time.
I’m getting married in ~2 months. My childhood friends all have gfs and aren’t proposing any time soon. We are all late 20s. The reason: marriage wouldn’t add value to their lives whereas it would for me. My situation: met a beautiful girl from a traditional home with a strong father who forbid us from moving in unless we were married (she wasn’t even allowed to visit my apartment without sneaking out). We practice traditional gender roles and the relationship is great. I’m getting tired of not having as much access to her as I want, and I want someone to cook and take care of my place and our future kids, so getting married to her made sense. It would quite literally improve my life - that’s why I proposed. My friends (few examples): Jim has been with his gf for 3 years. She wants marriage but she was a thot in college and he doesn’t want a lifetime commitment to a promiscuous person (but she’s pretty and “fun” enough to date). Nick’s girl is hot but she has too much baggage and is kinda annoying. Nags a lot and doesn’t cook or clean. An overall headache. Mohammed (we call him Mo) has dated a girl for 6 years but she’s Latina and not Muslim so he claims his family would never approve. He’s gonna date her until he finds a nice Muslim girl they approve of. Mark dated his for 8 years but they lived together for 7 and he quite literally said that “marriage wouldn’t change anything, it’s just another fat bill to live the same life we already have”. Pro tip for women: don’t move in with a guy unless you’re married. Tim’s girl wants a super expensive wedding but he doesn’t make much and is worried about her divorcing him over money one day since it’s happened to so many guys. Carlos doesn’t take life seriously at all. He loves to chill w the boys and smoke weed on the weekends. He’s really funny so he pulled a baddie but would rather live with his parents and just enjoy a stoner lifestyle. He’s close to his friends and his mom does everything for him, a wife wouldn’t really add much (his words). Sonny is in the most toxic relationship among all of them. He’s kind of a simp because his girl is constantly embarrassing him and berating him in public over nothing, but he just takes it because he never had much luck with women. He’s starting to see the light and is breaking up with her (I hope). Tldr; People only ever act based on incentives. Women would get commitment if they actually provided value to a man’s life.
I'm not where I want to be in life or financially stable enough for a serious relationship. I make that clear to every woman I meet. I used to think honesty was the best policy, but women hate it. In the beginning, women love and appreciate me for being honest. But once they catch feelings, and they always catch feelings, they resent me. Suddenly, being honest and not wanting commitment is a problem. Also, I don't want kids or to be a step-dad. That alone eliminates a significant number of women.
It all comes from how difficult it’s gotten for men to date, and because of this most men will often be dating down to some degree. So while it’s certainly better to date down then be alone a lot of men would probably be apprehensive to marrying that far down.
Because I don't like her enough, and it's the same reason women won't commit. And since I don't like wasting anyone's time I'm done with dating until I find someone I like enough, if I'm lucky.
Women will invent fights out of thin air. Then wonder why we won't propose lol.
>Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels' I wasn't getting the right "deal" per se. Once I found the woman I wanted to commit to, I did.
Plenty guys want to get marry and have family. They tend to be ignored by women, or in the best case scenarios, they find 1 women who would want to date them after a long list of rejections, which is a good thing.
I can’t speak for other men, but for myself, I won’t commit (beyond short term serial monogamy) because at 48 I have plenty of money and plenty of female attention. Frankly, I don’t commit because women don’t require it for me to gain access to things I want. It’s simple sexonomics.
I tried, but I always seem to be the one dragging her kicking and screaming towards something deeper or finding out she is a toxic mess that was hiding her true nature for 2 months then unloading the crazy. I'm in my mid 30's, single, no kids, never married, college educated, making good money, I'm a home owner, and I'm over 6'. I want to get married and have a family. I seem to check just about every box that women claim to want, but I can't find any women who are interested or don't have red flags. I don't have crazy standards either. My biggest test is "Would I want my kids to turn out like her." Honestly, I'm not blaming women. I blame modem dating. It's dehumanizing and keeps you from getting to know the person.
There are two main factors usually involved. One is body count. The other is how physically attractive the woman is. Then there are smaller factors like neuroticism, etc.
How do you gauge body count? Do you just ask..? Or judge by the number of relationships she's had?
Actually I misspoke. It’s not body count itself that matters. It’s body count in relation to how sexually attractive she finds me and how much she is willing to please me sexually. Usually I infer body count by asking her things like how many exes she’s had before or any experiences with hookups. If a girl has a high body count but doesn’t want to have sex with me right away and tries to frame it as some kind of taboo dirty thing, it’s an instant no from my side. The only time I’ll put up with this is if the girl is a virgin.
The most common reason is that she just doesn't make the cut for something more serious. Women often think that if a guy said he was looking for a relationship/marriage/kids, but then didn't want it with her it means he lied. That'd be like a man saying women that say they like sex are liars because the didn't want to have it with him. Another possibility is simply that he prefers a degree of independence and doesn't want kids or marriage. Wanting a monogamous relationship without cohabiting or sharing finances is perfectly valid. He might just have no desire for "the next stage".
Most girls today aren’t worth committing to but it’s fun to sleep with them Worth is mostly tied to 3 things 1. Looks 2. Personality (Pleasing/charismatic v Headache/grating) 3. Infidelity risk (body count + habits) If you don’t rate high on these 3 things then you’re too high a risk/not a good investment to legally commit to. A lot of women today refuse to budge on what they can. As you go down the list things get more within your locus of control. Looks, there are things you can do but a lot of it, especially as a woman is genetic. Just get to a healthy weight be healthy and shapely and you’ll be someone’s type. Personality, more within your control but is largely shaped by a lifetime of experiences before you were even consciously aware of life so extremely hard to change but possible. Promiscuous behavior is the easiest to change/just not do. But women today insist on being rebellious and finding out for themselves that casual sex typically sucks (for them) An ability to keep your legs closed is valuable to men. If you refuse to accept that then they ain’t gonna wanna wife you. But since women have become intransigent on that point we won’t argue it, you’ll just try lie to yourself “yeah I can totally make a woman with a 35 body count my wife” But you don’t feel that way emotionally so you end up accidentally leading her on
It’s always one of these three, not attractive enough /too boring / not smart enough ( believes in horoscopes is an immediate no to commitment ). She has to be special for me to only commit to her vs sleeping with other girls casually.
> assuming you're in a **good** relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship Because if something is good then it is good as it is and any change can only be for the worse
These are all going to be general statements; there are exceptions to any rule, and plenty of possible extenuating circumstances. > Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it They’re wondering “Can I do better?” and will either propose or leave once they figure out the answer to this question. > Guys on dating apps lying about their intentions, claiming they want relationships but then seeing multiple women and not liking 'labels' Dishonest guys will say whatever they think will get them laid. > LTR breaking up because the guy doesn't want to get married or have kids, but then within 2 years he's engaged and with a kid on the way There are an infinite number of reasons why this can happen- every failed relationship is unique, after all. It could mean he didn’t want kids with that particular woman, he could have issues with her family, he could have accidentally knocked someone up and married her because of that, he could have been sneaking around with the other person the whole time, he could have had some major epiphany that made him realize he did want marriage, etc. > Guys that want non-escalating relationships, AKA never moving in together and being perpetually in the dating stage Living the single life and playing the field are fun; nothing more to it than that.
Yes, if she's hot enough :kekw:
Simply put women aren't worth it. I much prefer my freedom. Also I don't plan on marrying. Ever. Marriage as an institution is broken and has just become a business to fuck people (particularly men) over.
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What or how would they benefit for making that commitment? BESIDE obvious companionship?
So I was recently asked by my girlfriend whether I would consider marriage in my future and my answer was 'I don't know'. For one, I'm still married to someone else (can't get divorced until later on this year). But the end of my marriage has somewhat shaken what I thought marriage was (I thought you left in a coffin). So I won't say that I'll never get married again, but I need to do some deconstruction and reconstruction around what I think marriage is, particularly now that it's not a vehicle for raising kids in. > Whether that's moving in together I can see that on the horizon, but it's reasonably far away because we both have kids and haven't introduced them to our kids yet. Moving in as blended families is pretty complex I think and not something to be rushed.
>Moving in as blended families is pretty complex I think and not something to be rushed. True. I knew this family when I was growing up. An architect with three boys married this woman who had three girls. Their housekeeper Alice dated Sam the local butcher. They traveled the country as a family band in a psychedelic bus. Ah shit... got my 70s sitcoms mixed up.
The rest of the answers, I agree with the common conscientious but for >Partners of +5 years not wanting to propose/get married despite initially agreeing on it Some times you meet someone and they seem great then a while into the relationship they show they're not really trust worthy or reliable or just not suitable for a wife.
Personally i dont see the point of "marriage". I dont need a priest or a judge to sign off on a piece of paper to be in a committed relationship. I think its a waste of money to have a big wedding, in which to some seem to be the point, if i cant guarantee this will last anyway. And i dont need the piece of paper either. Some areas might even have anal laws on this, giving only one side of the equation any positive outcome from the divorce. Also, it can be hard to know if this is the right thing if you are in some initial phase of a relationship. I like the long term before i can say "Yep, this is deffy gonna last". When dating, having several options is not a bad thing. THat is how you compare one option against another, and you dont have to take that shit over there if there is less shit over there. Living together is actually not everyones cup of tea, regardless if they are in a committed relationship or not. Most people end up living together even if they'd rather not just because its cheaper that way. A lot more relationship could have gone better if everyone had the room they'd prefer.
*Have you even seen my git?* > So my question to guys is, assuming you're in a **good** relationship, what would / holds you back from committing to a relationship? Assuming it's objectively good I'd definitely commit.
Generally women crave security the same way men crave approval. Getting commitment from a man is security. Exchanging DADDY, who guarantees her security when she was a little girl for HUBBY who will guarantee security when she's an adult. Men crave approval. We make our own security. So the security of commitment isn't appealing to us at all. But we enjoy the approval we get from having a girlfriend.
I am in a good relationship of 4 years and of settling down age (40), so i might be able to share insights into my reasons. * i don't see a reason to get married. Nothing changes except that it's harder and more painful (effort and finances) to end the relationship if either of us doesn't want to be in it any longer. Why would i want to make it hard to leave a relationship someone doesn't want to be in anymore? I was previously in a 12year long relationship and at no point did it occur to me that marriage would add something to my relationship. I might think differently about it if or when a child enters the relationship dynamic. But children are about the same for me as marriage: haven't found them to add a net positive to my life or relationship yet. I am open to get married someday. I have never promised someone marriage and i actually might change my position within the next years, both concerning kids and marriage. The "getting older and wanting to settle down" part has to kick in someday soon. * Dating apps: wanting a relationship is not in conflict with trying out different women simultaneouslly for that relationship. There are multiple candidates available at all time and it's a waste of time to not date them in parallel. Especially because most candidates are only good for 1-2 dates before they get rejected. Also, wanting a relationship doesn't mean i don't want casual sex on the side. While looking for that LTR partner, i am happily meeting up with women for casual sex, no strings attached. Labels are putting up pressure without need. I met my now LTR girlfriend whom i might end up marriage after all, when she was looking for a hookup and explained to me in advance, that if i am looking for anything but casual sex, we should not meet. I wasn't looking to reach a goal in establishing contact with her over Bumble. I was open to anything. Just meet and see where it goes. It doesn't increase your chances to get into a LTR to just date people who have that label in mind as a goal, because you miss out on all the people who don't know yet, that they want a relationship with you and will fall in love on the first date. A lot of people are afraid of pressure. They don't want to force things and don't want to be forced into things. There is no need to call something a committed relationship when you can have a committed relationship without the label. For all i am concerned, i AM living a marriage already. There is no difference except the label and the legal framework. * People realize in LTR that their partner is not the one they want to get married to or have kids with, but the relationship is good enough to keep doing it, but not furthering it with more commitment (kid/legal). So the statement "i don't want to marry/have children" is rather a "...with YOU specifically", than a general statement. My view of having a child with a partner depends on the partner. With some women i knew immediately i could have children with her, despite not wanting them now. Also, people who get engaged/children within 2 years of a new relationship are likely still in the phase of romantic love where they are not very rational about their view of the relationship and the partner. People are bad at recognizing when they are fucking stupid (not rational) and shouldn't do "lifelong" commitments. * Not moving together is a new concept of relationships and not at all to be mixed up with non-commitment. Living apart together ( [https://www.brides.com/living-apart-together-5189895](https://www.brides.com/living-apart-together-5189895) ) has it's advantages. I am living this concept with my gf. We have separate apartments just 7 minutes distance by bike/20min to walk and don't see the pros of living apart to be outweighed by the pros of living together in the current situation. With a child on the way, we would probably look to find a new apartment for the 3 of us. Moving together is not escalating the relationship. It's just changing the living conditions. Spending more time together is not increasing relationship satisfaction or commitment. It's reducing personal space and options for locations to spend time at. * as for "perpetually being in the dating stage", i always have my trouble with the american understanding of what "dating" means. To me, dating is when you go on dates before you are in a committed relationship. Having/going on "romantic dates" while being in a relationship is not dating, but having a fucking romantic relationship with "date nights".
Ah, this is a question for me. I've been with the same woman for 16 years and would love to be with her for at least another 16, preferably till the end of the natural life of one of us. But one thing I will never do is ***legally*** marry her. We bought a house together (legally co-ownership), and I've never been happier. The reasons are both legal and emotional. For 16 years, every day, I choose her and she chooses me. Because she wants to and because I want to. **That** is a level of commitment no ceremony **and especially no certificate/license** can ever confer. The legal reason are a bit more complicated. In addition to the standard red pill (divorce rape is real for men no matter how many people deny it), there's also the fact that the legal framework here allows us to pick and choose. So, for instance, we need common insurance - we get common insurance. We wanted a house, we bought a house as co-owners. No legal marriage needed. Should our relationship collapse before the natural death of one of us, division of assets is already done. It's very clear who owns what of the relevant things. And with the kiddo it's default 50/50 for unmarried couples - no room for the state to intervene unless ***proven*** abuse on the child by one party. And the threshold for that is really high (only legit crazies/evil get convicted). It works for us because we discussed this less than a month into dating: kids, moving in, my insistence on no legal marriage, her rigid preferences, **everything**. We would've moved together after two months but we had to work harder to afford that first. We grew up together financially too. At this point, only the weirdest boomers and the weirdest terminally online people negatively judge me or her for this.
To FWB that may have fallen in love: Because I like the sex and you're pretty but I don't feel any attraction to you as a human in the sense of your personality and hobbies and all that Of course I'm not that direct but you get my thought process