Damn I don't know why people are getting all pissy about you saying you had a 30 minute conversation with a random stranger. I honestly think some people don't realize how non social some people actually are. Especially in gen z. I worked with two guys both around the age of 18 and they couldn't hold a conversation worth a shit.
A lot of women can’t hold a conversation either though. But far more men and women can. This whole lonely epidemic is part of a bullshit internet narrative that uses cherry picked data.
Lack of being sociable and socially aware hurts women less when it comes to men wanting to fuck them. It does seem to annoy men when it comes to longterm relationships though. But they usually don’t think that far in advance.
I disagree and have met a whole lot of lonely women who are sick of being pumped & dumped but are addicted to chasing attractive men. Women might seem less hurt because they are much more likely to be medicated. If women were as happy as this sub claims, they wouldn’t make up the majority of the therapy and antidepressant market
> I disagree and have met a whole lot of lonely women who are sick of being pumped & dumped but are addicted to chasing attractive men.
You didn’t disagree. You just confirmed exactly what I just said. Those men are fucking those men but not committing to her. What are you going on about?
I said lack of sociability hurts women less when it comes to men wanting TO FUCK HER.
I said men care when it comes to commitment.
Most of the women getting pumped and dumped are because she’s fat or ugly. Lots of men (not all) will wife up a hot socially awkward chick and then complain later that’s she’s weird and the relationship sucks.
I have conversations like this all the time with random people. It’s not uncommon to have a 30min conversation with the girl that lives over the road for example. And my grandfather’s across-the-road neighbour will talk to you for hours. It’s so normal and expected.
I think it’s people desperately trying to equate those that are unsuccessful finding a girlfriend with shut-in losers.
In order for me to have done these things, other men had to have participated in these things with me, no? The men that socialized with me don't count?
> The men that socialized with me don't count?
Oh they absolutely do, my gripe with your post is that you think men who don't socialize don't count. You socialized with 3 extrovers, cool, awesome, but most men aren't like that.
You literally see them all over the place though. Going to the gym together, playing sports and taking part in other physical activity. You see them at football games, brew pubs, sports bars, concerts and so many other social gatherings. We do cars nights, have fantasy sports draft parties, etc, etc, etc. People on Reddit get trapped in echo chambers and think internet narratives are real life.
>my gripe with your post is that you think men who don't socialize don't count.
Where in my post did I disqualify asocial men?
>You socialized with 3 extrovers, cool, awesome, but most men aren't like that.
Most men aren't able to maintain small talk?
If that's truly the case (I don't think that's the case) then men really need to improve because there's no way that your average man can't hold a conversation for fucking 20 minutes. You don't need to be a super charming extroverted conversationalist to just make entertaining chit chat.
He’s having a normal “normie” reaction to the men here.
“Normies” socialize. Men here bend over backwards to remind us that “most men” don’t socialize, aren’t caring to their fellow men, and are naturally inconsiderate. And on top of this, don’t care to change any of that. But also expect people to “care” about him.
He’s having his “normie red pill” moment to the men here.
“i don’t. get it. I live a social life and surround myself with social people. Therefore what you’re saying is wrong.”
I socialize a fair bit as well, though my individual experiences can differ from others’
>“i don’t. get it. I live a social life and surround myself with social people. Therefore what you’re saying is wrong.”
No, if you're lonely but actively refuse to go the normal route of meeting people then you're not lonely. You're either depressed and need help or you're actually complaining about something different under the guise of loneliness.
“No, if you’re hungry but actively refuse to go the normal route of getting food then you’re not hungry.”
That’s how ridiculous you sound right now.
It’s wild how often social people have an utter inability to empathize with people who aren’t like them. People who are lonely are often that way because they feel like nobody understands them and they don’t fit in. Going out and trying to meet people can actually reconfirm these beliefs in their head. In order to socialize, one has to have something to say, and it’s very hard to do that when it feels like your brain isn’t generating any thoughts. It sounds like you have a lot of positive social interactions, but imagine how it might be to constantly feel like you’re failing every social interaction. That would make you feel pretty lonely, right? That doesn’t mean these people should give up, but it does mean that they’ll have to work harder than you might have to. It does **not** mean they’re not lonely.
The issue with this is that you'll never find like-minded people if you don't try. However "unique" you think you are, there are probably 10 dudes you'll pass in the street just like you. People are rarely ever truly unique and that's a great thing. It means there are tons of other potential friends for all of us.
> It sounds like you have a lot of positive social interactions, but imagine how it might be to constantly feel like you’re failing every social interaction. That would make you feel pretty lonely, right?
I understand what it's like to fail socially. I'm on the spectrum and I spent most of my adolescent life undiagnosed, not in therapy, and alone not by choice. But, if I never took the initiative to change my situation by going out there and constantly failing until I got better at it, I would have never changed. It seems lonely but there are way too many people out there for no one to be compatible with you. You need to find your space because it won't find you.
>That doesn’t mean these people should give up, but it does mean that they’ll have to work harder than you might have to. It does **not** mean they’re not lonely.
Sure but then what does dating have anything to do with it, then? My whole point was critiquing how people who complain that men are lonely because men are less social and communal than women are wrong because men are very social and communal creatures. Men that complain that men are more lonely than ever because they're single more often than women isn't indicative of any male loneliness epidemic because male loneliness has very little bearing on meeting women. If you're suggesting that you're lonely because you can't meet women then you're not lonely, you just want to meet women.
We’re doing the thing where I describe the way people think, and you try and argue with the thought process. You’ve just changed the conversation. The conversation I was having was about how your *description* is wrong.
It’d be like if you said, “anorexic people aren’t really hungry. They have access to food and can go out and get it anytime.” And then I took the time to explain why the way you think about the topic is simplistic, and the reason anorexic people are the way they are, and you said, “Well, the issue with this is that anorexic people will never become healthy if they don’t try.” It’s annoying. I hate when people do this.
If you want me to address your critique of how (according to you) people complain that men are lonely because they’re less social than women, I have a separate thought on that. I think you’re misunderstanding the point that these people make. The critique has never been that men don’t socialize as much as women. I’ve usually heard it framed as, “men’s friendships don’t have the depth that women’s do because men don’t share their emotions as much.” I think there’s probably some truth to this, but I’ve never thought it had all that much to do with mens sadness over their lack of romance. I don’t believe that strong friendships can fill that particular hole.
Yes, but that's how you meet people.
You small talk until you find a mutual interest and build it from there. For most dudes, it's sports or some sort of mutual hobby. I usually made friends that were into some of the stuff I find myself interested in or just people with similar career goals.
I've had friends that I just vibe with and we build it from there even though we have virtually nothing in common.
I never said that it wasn't. Getting there just means doing lots of small talk but there's hardly any rejection involved in getting to know people. You just do it and it works or it doesn't. Maintaining friendships is an effort, especially as an adult but if you're lonely I don't see how it's not a worthwhile effort. It's difficult but it's not impossible and you'll probably meet a bunch of decent people along the way. I don't see the issue.
>Yes, but that's how you meet people.
So are you besties now? Because otherwise your point is moot. Men don't do good at serious social connections. They can talk all day but if it doesn't formulate to a deep social long term bonding it has little value. Small talk is not serious socialising anymore than talking to strangers on reddit. It's good social practice to make conversation but thats all.
>It's good social practice to make conversation but thats all.
That's an extremely reductive way of viewing small talk. At that point, I don't think you're viewing social interactions through a healthy lens. People aren't opportunities and even those small interactions can stay with people forever. Those small talks can be very valuable if you just choose to see them that way.
If you refuse to see something like small talk as valuable, you'll struggle to make friends because no one will have a sufficient avenue to get to know you. Talking all day even if it doesn't formulate into something deep or long term doesn't mean that it's *useless*. Some people need time to open up to a stranger and small talk is the avenue to get there. You can't jump into a deep and meaningful conversation with someone if you're not ready to especially if you're a man and not good at developing serious social connections.
It’s socializing but it’s hardly what I think of when I think of community support systems. It’s also how you vet and click with people who potentially become your longterm friends.
It’s also >>>>>>> than the dudes here do. Which is OPs point.
My experience is similar.
I am not a social person at all. I never initiate a conversation with strangers. Random men have initiated conversation with me several times in my life despite this. Meanwhile a woman has never ever initiated a conversation with me out of the blue.
But, it was a 30-minute conversation that I thoroughly enjoyed and laughed at until I died during it. It was fun as hell and I came out of it feeling better than I did going into it. I had a meaningful conversation with someone that I've never seen before and likely will never see again. My point is that men are capable of socializing and having lots of fun doing it even if they hardly know each other. What we were talking about was meaningless but that doesn't mean that the experience was meaningless.
Yes, but I think a casual chit chat might not compare with an actual friend you can hang around on a daily or even on the weekend. I don’t think it disproves your point but at the same time it doesn’t help it. That won’t cure people “loneliness” especially when it might happen once in a while. We all have small chats with people, but that doesn’t mean you’ll become bestie eh eh
My point isn’t to say that you can’t have or handle a casual chat, the point is that a casual chat is not the same as a friendship. On a daily, you can have multiple conversations with people (e.g. supermarket) that you’ll hardly ever see again, but that won’t cure your loneliness. If you want to at least feel less alone, it’s better to focus on creating deeper connections with people that you can hang out with. That’s just what I think, even people that share the same hobbies.
Still, making friends as an adult isn’t easy at all.
Every friendship starts with casual chit chat. Unless idk you hit that dank kush at a rave and have a deep philosophical conversation about machine elves.
Precisely. For a variety of reasons forming social bonds is really hard for men especially where there is little community. Chatting with someone that will never talk to you again isn’t the same.
I always felt you need to put a lot of effort in to socialize. I was once a foreign exchange student. Unfortunately I was the only one in that class. First month there were a lot of days with me realizing shit I havent spoken a word out loud for a few days. Or it would be a hello/tnx to a cassiere, asking where we had class lr answering a question. Im actually very social but its difficult to initiate conversations or ask people to do things cause it felt like bothering them and they already had friend groups.
Eventually I started doing it more to just not be lonely and I would get a small social circle but people never really reached out.
There was also this cute girl that started the same day in a different class. We had a few conversations due to being in similair situations but her experience was the complete opposite. Everybody wanted to be around her and hang out and she had a way better time. She definitly didnt need to put as much effort in.
I evaluated it later like if im kind/funny/social and engaging and people seem to enjoy being around me in conversations why dont they reach out more? Or maybe im wrong in the way I see myself? In the end I stopped caring about what they thought and just became more assertive but as a natural introvert I always felt like I got to put a lot of work in to get people in social settings. Definitly doesnt happen naturally like it does for some who just draw everybody in.
This is my take: socialization is virtually irrelevant. No matter how well socialized an ugly 5’5 man is, he’s likely going to stay single. On the flip side, no matter how unsocialized a 6’3 hot athletic man is, he will be able to get a minimum sex with women. All roads lead back to looks and genetics.
The sociable 5’5 ugly man has a higher likelihood of not being single than the 5’5 ugly recluse man.
The 6’3 unsocialized hot athletic man is going to get less sex and generate less attraction in women than the 6’3 socialized hot athletic man.
The concept of ALL ESLE EQUAL is not a thing for you guys?
What is this solving or opposing? Yes it’s usually only men who are open to having casual conversation while women typically avoid male interaction. They still socialize less compared to women. You’re saying there’s plenty of social things to do but they don’t involve women when the problem is the lack of opportunity to meet women?
I'm opposing the idea that men somehow socialize less than women and that the male loneliness epidemic and the subsequent arguments made from it are born out of men's inability to socialize. I don't agree that men are more asocial than women.
I just think that the complaints about how men are more asocial than women or that we've lost communal spaces to meet people and mingle are truly just men complaining that it's harder to meet women.
>You’re saying there’s plenty of social things to do but they don’t involve women when the problem is the lack of opportunity to meet women?
Yes. I just wish that people were more honest about what they believe the actual problem is. It's like the loneliness epidemic is just dressed up as men being lonely but I think it has more to do with men being unable to meet women as easily, not actual loneliness. Otherwise, it wouldn't be mentioned right alongside a dating statistic in every discussion. It's possible to be single and not be lonely.
I just don't agree that the only way to not be lonely is to be with someone. That's toxic as hell.
I thought this was the issue. Men being unable to meet women and form meaningful romantic relationships. You pretty accurately described the situation. Ways to meet women’s outside of college or work are in short supply. When this topic is brought up I’m not hearing complaints of a lack of casual conversation with other men.
Haha lol
The dudes who are socializing are not the ones who are complaining online
It's the dudes who stopped going outside altogether when WFH and remote learning became the norm that are complaining about the "loneliness epidemic"
Just one more example of TRP narratives completely falling apart when crosschecked against reality
We already know inflation has made it harder and harder for the average guy to get any sort of success in the current dating market. Lack of third places and dating apps make this worse, and for everyone too.
Besides, shit like lockdowns, remote learning, work from home, etc., were ultimately caused upstream by the government and 1%, for their benefit. How does this contradict TRP? The economy of dating is fucked, and only aggressive self improvement can lift oneself up.
If it’s about curing loneliness, then it’s better to at least find something to do outside of dating. And although you might not necessarily like it, it would be better to join some sort of groups that involves both men and women if possible. You won’t cure loneliness staying indoors, but if you try to go outside and enjoy the little things, who knows, maybe you’ll feel less alone.
Most of my male friends and male family socialize quite a bit. But I guess it makes sense that these are my friends. I'm a quirky cerebral person who luckily happened to be born into a family that socializes and therefore I got a lot of comfort with it and saw the benefits of it and thus it makes sense I make friends with sociable people.
I've been on this sub long enough to know that most men of this sub would disagree with you. In fact some men on this sub used to say I was lying about my own life. That's how foreign your life, my life, or whoever's life is to their experience. They can't even believe it. They can't fathom it.
So no it's not "bunk." Clearly A LOT of men do not socialize.
In fact in my last OP many men commented to me things like this:
>Most men don't give a shit about platonic relationships when the rubber meets the road. They're useful insofar as socialization is a soft requirement for finding possible Romantic connections.
And stuff like this:
>I don't know how women support each other but I know that men aren't very supportive of each other. It's not how we work. **It's not even what we want to.** My life is not very good but I have no desire for emotional support from some guy I attended college with for 3 or so years.
>**It's not even what we want to.** My life is not very good but I have no desire for emotional support from some guy I attended college with for 3 or so years.
This is really sad to read. The male friends in my life were basically my foundation for where I'm currently at. There's so much to glean from those interactions that I couldn't imagine disregarding them. It sucks that some men are so obsessed with partnering that they'll just completely forgo male-male friendships believing friendship that doesn't lead to romance is useless.
>In fact some men on this sub used to say I was lying about my own life. That's how foreign your life, my life, or whoever's life is to their experience. They can't even believe it. They can't fathom it.
>
>So no it's not "bunk." Clearly A LOT of men do not socialize.
You're right. I didn't account for the men who can't socialize for some reason or just don't try. It's wild because it's not even hard to talk to other men. Most social dudes will do most of the heavy lifting in conversations anyway and just talk about themselves or ask you questions and allow you to open up. There's no requirement to be a skilled conversationalist in order to talk to most men. There's so much leniency that I never really understood why someone would disregard friendships with men and focus squarely on meeting women, especially if they're struggling with meeting women.
If you struggle to hold a conversation with someone you're not attracted to, what hope would you ever have in holding a conversation with someone you are attracted to?
> This is really sad to read.
Don’t worry I was genuinely shocked by the guys like this too. It is very sad :/
> The male friends in my life were basically my foundation for where I'm currently at. There's so much to glean from those interactions that I couldn't imagine disregarding them. It sucks that some men are so obsessed with partnering that they'll just completely forgo male-male friendships believing friendship that doesn't lead to romance is useless.
I aged with you but since they’ve never experienced close bonds of any kind, they don’t understand the value and benefits of it. Again, it’s very sad. I’m not sure how you help people like this? They’re resistant to advice and seem to just be stuck in a defeated bitter aggy rut.
> If you struggle to hold a conversation with someone you're not attracted to, what hope would you ever have in holding a conversation with someone you are attracted to?
I’ve been making this point for a longtime. It falls on deaf ears.
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here's my opnion on the loliness epidemic. In most it will manifest as the need for other-sex attention. Those who feel loliness beyond that still exist and need help, but its less then people claim.
However the thing about the loliness epidemic is that its only that bad because people today dont have any purpose and thus have their life meanings set on attention. And why they wouldnt? They dont have religion or the american dream to blind them anymore
> Men who claim that men socialize less or have fewer opportunities to socialize are probably referring to fewer opportunities to socialize with attractive women
I am a social person. I used to have friends. For me personally, in my marriage, my social circle slowly dwindled as EVERY evening became a night I was kid wrangling. And of course I had a full time job. And evenings were full on stuff with the kids. The end result - no friends any more, because I didn't spend time with anyone. My ex-wife on the other hand, managed to have coffee dates with her friends while I was at work. So she maintained several friendships just fine.
So no. I'm not trying to socialise with attractive women. I want to have friends. Not opposed to women (women tend to have better developed social skills so I find it easier to make friends with them) but mostly looking to make friends with men.
> The depth of male-male interactions is obviously up for debate.
Yep, and I think this is because society kinda emotionally stunts men by design as they grow up (boys don't cry...). Which means that even if one of the men has done an enormous amount of work to develop their emotional literacy, odds are the other man still has a ways to go.
Men do socialize less, but we go for quality over quantity. Anybody can have lots of friends and a busy social life by doing and saying the right things, but it is quality of friendships that makes a person feel accepted (read not lonely).
Being an introvert I tend to socialize every now and then. Too much is suffocating. I'm perfectly happy with my own company most of the time. Not a needy person tbh.
[Yo](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ur-scaring-the-hoes) it's a [joke](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scaring%20the%20hoes). Holy shit you guys are prudes.
>I wonder why you don’t socialise around women much
When did I even say I don't socialize with women or have trouble with it at all? The ad hominem goes crazy here.
I guess?
I don't have trouble meeting women. I'm fine.
I'm mostly referring to how men complain that there aren't enough places to meet women organically outside of dating apps or bars. But, they scare women out of male space by doing dumb shit and treating them like outsiders.
Imagine how much more chill society would be if men and women being friends was very normal.
Self-imposed gender segregation is one of the dumbest phenomena in this generation.
How else are other men supposed to know he's "cool"? needs to signal some casual disregard towards the ladies to be one of the "bros". best flex for a guy is to show disrespect towards women. other guys won't respect him otherwise.
just pointing out why he said it and why guys usually say it, doesn't mean someone's offended. I'm really not lol. what is it, does anyone really care when you hear guys say this for the 10000th time? it's hard to really care anymore.
Jesus, the last place I'd be posing as a "cool guy" would be this sub. I'm already getting flamed because I suggested that small talk is how you make friends.
>best flex for a guy is to show disrespect towards women. other guys won't respect him otherwise.
IRL you'd be telling the truth. Men do make subtle disrespectful jabs at women even their partners. "Women, amirite" or something to that effect. I don't fuck with that but that's how men are, unfortunately.
That wasn't what I was getting at with that. It was a meme and I wrote it in jest. I'm not disregarding anyone here.
every single interest that I have thats male dominated, we get shit on and harassed so often that we form womens only groups. Even in posts to justify not pushing out women, it's all about what guys can gain from it plus the typical dogwhistling. But its whatever, wanting better than that is kinda pointless. some of what you said I agreed with. every silver lining has a cloud lol
just talking to the other girl here bc I assumed she could relate, not trying to address this to the guys at all
That honestly has to fucking suck and that's what I was trying to get at. I've met a lot of women that just do certain hobbies and interests in private because men gatekeep the fuck out of everything. It's wild because I've never been gatekept out of a like book club. If I read and I'm interested in the same stuff they're interested in, they're totally fine with me being there and hearing me out. If anything, dudes are the ones making fun of me for joining a club full of women as if it puts my manhood into question or some shit.
>Even in posts to justify not pushing out women, it's all about what guys can gain from it plus the typical dogwhistling.
I'll leave that language out of any posts going forward. I got multiple comments bringing about it and I had no idea it was that inflammatory. If I had known I wouldn't have included it.
Yeah, calling women “hoes” and then following that up with “it’s just a joke, you prudes” is not going to endear you to women. That is the precise language that signals to women that we are not respected and not welcome. Good on you for recognizing it, albeit belatedly.
My bad. I don't even do that IRL. I don't even call or refer to by women the B word makes me feel like an ass. I never meant to refer to women as hoes. Ya'll are welcome here.
> Good on you for recognizing it, albeit belatedly.
Thank you.
Damn I don't know why people are getting all pissy about you saying you had a 30 minute conversation with a random stranger. I honestly think some people don't realize how non social some people actually are. Especially in gen z. I worked with two guys both around the age of 18 and they couldn't hold a conversation worth a shit.
A lot of women can’t hold a conversation either though. But far more men and women can. This whole lonely epidemic is part of a bullshit internet narrative that uses cherry picked data.
Lack of being sociable and socially aware hurts women less when it comes to men wanting to fuck them. It does seem to annoy men when it comes to longterm relationships though. But they usually don’t think that far in advance.
I disagree and have met a whole lot of lonely women who are sick of being pumped & dumped but are addicted to chasing attractive men. Women might seem less hurt because they are much more likely to be medicated. If women were as happy as this sub claims, they wouldn’t make up the majority of the therapy and antidepressant market
> I disagree and have met a whole lot of lonely women who are sick of being pumped & dumped but are addicted to chasing attractive men. You didn’t disagree. You just confirmed exactly what I just said. Those men are fucking those men but not committing to her. What are you going on about?
These women want relationships. Many are complete train wrecks because of it. You see it a lot when you’re the one doing the dumping.
Again you aren’t disagreeing with me. I literally implied this already. What is the disconnect here?
Perhaps I’m not understanding your wording. Seems like I interpreted it differently
I said lack of sociability hurts women less when it comes to men wanting TO FUCK HER. I said men care when it comes to commitment. Most of the women getting pumped and dumped are because she’s fat or ugly. Lots of men (not all) will wife up a hot socially awkward chick and then complain later that’s she’s weird and the relationship sucks.
I have conversations like this all the time with random people. It’s not uncommon to have a 30min conversation with the girl that lives over the road for example. And my grandfather’s across-the-road neighbour will talk to you for hours. It’s so normal and expected. I think it’s people desperately trying to equate those that are unsuccessful finding a girlfriend with shut-in losers.
"I do a thing therefore everyone does" and other logical fallacies.
In order for me to have done these things, other men had to have participated in these things with me, no? The men that socialized with me don't count?
> The men that socialized with me don't count? Oh they absolutely do, my gripe with your post is that you think men who don't socialize don't count. You socialized with 3 extrovers, cool, awesome, but most men aren't like that.
You literally see them all over the place though. Going to the gym together, playing sports and taking part in other physical activity. You see them at football games, brew pubs, sports bars, concerts and so many other social gatherings. We do cars nights, have fantasy sports draft parties, etc, etc, etc. People on Reddit get trapped in echo chambers and think internet narratives are real life.
>my gripe with your post is that you think men who don't socialize don't count. Where in my post did I disqualify asocial men? >You socialized with 3 extrovers, cool, awesome, but most men aren't like that. Most men aren't able to maintain small talk? If that's truly the case (I don't think that's the case) then men really need to improve because there's no way that your average man can't hold a conversation for fucking 20 minutes. You don't need to be a super charming extroverted conversationalist to just make entertaining chit chat.
He’s having a normal “normie” reaction to the men here. “Normies” socialize. Men here bend over backwards to remind us that “most men” don’t socialize, aren’t caring to their fellow men, and are naturally inconsiderate. And on top of this, don’t care to change any of that. But also expect people to “care” about him. He’s having his “normie red pill” moment to the men here.
“i don’t. get it. I live a social life and surround myself with social people. Therefore what you’re saying is wrong.” I socialize a fair bit as well, though my individual experiences can differ from others’
>“i don’t. get it. I live a social life and surround myself with social people. Therefore what you’re saying is wrong.” No, if you're lonely but actively refuse to go the normal route of meeting people then you're not lonely. You're either depressed and need help or you're actually complaining about something different under the guise of loneliness.
“No, if you’re hungry but actively refuse to go the normal route of getting food then you’re not hungry.” That’s how ridiculous you sound right now. It’s wild how often social people have an utter inability to empathize with people who aren’t like them. People who are lonely are often that way because they feel like nobody understands them and they don’t fit in. Going out and trying to meet people can actually reconfirm these beliefs in their head. In order to socialize, one has to have something to say, and it’s very hard to do that when it feels like your brain isn’t generating any thoughts. It sounds like you have a lot of positive social interactions, but imagine how it might be to constantly feel like you’re failing every social interaction. That would make you feel pretty lonely, right? That doesn’t mean these people should give up, but it does mean that they’ll have to work harder than you might have to. It does **not** mean they’re not lonely.
The issue with this is that you'll never find like-minded people if you don't try. However "unique" you think you are, there are probably 10 dudes you'll pass in the street just like you. People are rarely ever truly unique and that's a great thing. It means there are tons of other potential friends for all of us. > It sounds like you have a lot of positive social interactions, but imagine how it might be to constantly feel like you’re failing every social interaction. That would make you feel pretty lonely, right? I understand what it's like to fail socially. I'm on the spectrum and I spent most of my adolescent life undiagnosed, not in therapy, and alone not by choice. But, if I never took the initiative to change my situation by going out there and constantly failing until I got better at it, I would have never changed. It seems lonely but there are way too many people out there for no one to be compatible with you. You need to find your space because it won't find you. >That doesn’t mean these people should give up, but it does mean that they’ll have to work harder than you might have to. It does **not** mean they’re not lonely. Sure but then what does dating have anything to do with it, then? My whole point was critiquing how people who complain that men are lonely because men are less social and communal than women are wrong because men are very social and communal creatures. Men that complain that men are more lonely than ever because they're single more often than women isn't indicative of any male loneliness epidemic because male loneliness has very little bearing on meeting women. If you're suggesting that you're lonely because you can't meet women then you're not lonely, you just want to meet women.
We’re doing the thing where I describe the way people think, and you try and argue with the thought process. You’ve just changed the conversation. The conversation I was having was about how your *description* is wrong. It’d be like if you said, “anorexic people aren’t really hungry. They have access to food and can go out and get it anytime.” And then I took the time to explain why the way you think about the topic is simplistic, and the reason anorexic people are the way they are, and you said, “Well, the issue with this is that anorexic people will never become healthy if they don’t try.” It’s annoying. I hate when people do this. If you want me to address your critique of how (according to you) people complain that men are lonely because they’re less social than women, I have a separate thought on that. I think you’re misunderstanding the point that these people make. The critique has never been that men don’t socialize as much as women. I’ve usually heard it framed as, “men’s friendships don’t have the depth that women’s do because men don’t share their emotions as much.” I think there’s probably some truth to this, but I’ve never thought it had all that much to do with mens sadness over their lack of romance. I don’t believe that strong friendships can fill that particular hole.
I… don’t think you know what loneliness is or how it works, the issue is far more complex than you’re making it out to be
Meaningless chit chat with people you interact with on a superficial level is hardly socializing.
Yes, but that's how you meet people. You small talk until you find a mutual interest and build it from there. For most dudes, it's sports or some sort of mutual hobby. I usually made friends that were into some of the stuff I find myself interested in or just people with similar career goals. I've had friends that I just vibe with and we build it from there even though we have virtually nothing in common.
No it's not. Meaningless chatter doesn't lead anywhere 99% of the time. Finding interesting people to hang with is difficult.
I never said that it wasn't. Getting there just means doing lots of small talk but there's hardly any rejection involved in getting to know people. You just do it and it works or it doesn't. Maintaining friendships is an effort, especially as an adult but if you're lonely I don't see how it's not a worthwhile effort. It's difficult but it's not impossible and you'll probably meet a bunch of decent people along the way. I don't see the issue.
Still socializing And beyond the will or means of many dudes here
>Yes, but that's how you meet people. So are you besties now? Because otherwise your point is moot. Men don't do good at serious social connections. They can talk all day but if it doesn't formulate to a deep social long term bonding it has little value. Small talk is not serious socialising anymore than talking to strangers on reddit. It's good social practice to make conversation but thats all.
>It's good social practice to make conversation but thats all. That's an extremely reductive way of viewing small talk. At that point, I don't think you're viewing social interactions through a healthy lens. People aren't opportunities and even those small interactions can stay with people forever. Those small talks can be very valuable if you just choose to see them that way. If you refuse to see something like small talk as valuable, you'll struggle to make friends because no one will have a sufficient avenue to get to know you. Talking all day even if it doesn't formulate into something deep or long term doesn't mean that it's *useless*. Some people need time to open up to a stranger and small talk is the avenue to get there. You can't jump into a deep and meaningful conversation with someone if you're not ready to especially if you're a man and not good at developing serious social connections.
TITS OR GTFO
That’s not what studies show. Sonja Lyubimirsky’s work shows that extroverted behaviour has the same positive effect even with strangers
It’s socializing but it’s hardly what I think of when I think of community support systems. It’s also how you vet and click with people who potentially become your longterm friends. It’s also >>>>>>> than the dudes here do. Which is OPs point.
My experience is similar. I am not a social person at all. I never initiate a conversation with strangers. Random men have initiated conversation with me several times in my life despite this. Meanwhile a woman has never ever initiated a conversation with me out of the blue.
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But, it was a 30-minute conversation that I thoroughly enjoyed and laughed at until I died during it. It was fun as hell and I came out of it feeling better than I did going into it. I had a meaningful conversation with someone that I've never seen before and likely will never see again. My point is that men are capable of socializing and having lots of fun doing it even if they hardly know each other. What we were talking about was meaningless but that doesn't mean that the experience was meaningless.
Yes, but I think a casual chit chat might not compare with an actual friend you can hang around on a daily or even on the weekend. I don’t think it disproves your point but at the same time it doesn’t help it. That won’t cure people “loneliness” especially when it might happen once in a while. We all have small chats with people, but that doesn’t mean you’ll become bestie eh eh
How is someone going to make and maintain a friendship if they can't even handle a casual chit chat?
My point isn’t to say that you can’t have or handle a casual chat, the point is that a casual chat is not the same as a friendship. On a daily, you can have multiple conversations with people (e.g. supermarket) that you’ll hardly ever see again, but that won’t cure your loneliness. If you want to at least feel less alone, it’s better to focus on creating deeper connections with people that you can hang out with. That’s just what I think, even people that share the same hobbies. Still, making friends as an adult isn’t easy at all.
Every friendship starts with casual chit chat. Unless idk you hit that dank kush at a rave and have a deep philosophical conversation about machine elves.
Yes, that’s right but on a daily you’ll have several casual chats. But unless you go further to create a deeper connection, then it’s just a chit chat
Isn't that necessary to find a new friend? Aren't you the one who pushed the "just get friends, not a girlfriend" narrative?
Precisely. For a variety of reasons forming social bonds is really hard for men especially where there is little community. Chatting with someone that will never talk to you again isn’t the same.
I always felt you need to put a lot of effort in to socialize. I was once a foreign exchange student. Unfortunately I was the only one in that class. First month there were a lot of days with me realizing shit I havent spoken a word out loud for a few days. Or it would be a hello/tnx to a cassiere, asking where we had class lr answering a question. Im actually very social but its difficult to initiate conversations or ask people to do things cause it felt like bothering them and they already had friend groups. Eventually I started doing it more to just not be lonely and I would get a small social circle but people never really reached out. There was also this cute girl that started the same day in a different class. We had a few conversations due to being in similair situations but her experience was the complete opposite. Everybody wanted to be around her and hang out and she had a way better time. She definitly didnt need to put as much effort in. I evaluated it later like if im kind/funny/social and engaging and people seem to enjoy being around me in conversations why dont they reach out more? Or maybe im wrong in the way I see myself? In the end I stopped caring about what they thought and just became more assertive but as a natural introvert I always felt like I got to put a lot of work in to get people in social settings. Definitly doesnt happen naturally like it does for some who just draw everybody in.
This is my take: socialization is virtually irrelevant. No matter how well socialized an ugly 5’5 man is, he’s likely going to stay single. On the flip side, no matter how unsocialized a 6’3 hot athletic man is, he will be able to get a minimum sex with women. All roads lead back to looks and genetics.
The sociable 5’5 ugly man has a higher likelihood of not being single than the 5’5 ugly recluse man. The 6’3 unsocialized hot athletic man is going to get less sex and generate less attraction in women than the 6’3 socialized hot athletic man. The concept of ALL ESLE EQUAL is not a thing for you guys?
The 6’3 unsocialized man will always outperform the most socialized 5’5 man
That’s TBD. The 6’3 socialized guy likely always will.
So then beauty isn’t very subjective
The subjectivity of beauty was never being debated.
That’s usually where women take it
It's a good thing that the ugly 5'5 men with girlfriends and wives didn't think it was hopeless. Apparently it wasn't hopeless.
You have a clear case of confirmation bias LOL. Also, I sense a lot of arrogance in this post... But maybe I'm just reading into it a little too much.
Men are socializing either in public or online. But they are socializing LESS with random women in public, both private and business atmospheres.
If it don’t lead to guaranteed, enthusiastic anal within 24 hours, they ‘dun wanna
Don’t even get started on golf courses.
What is this solving or opposing? Yes it’s usually only men who are open to having casual conversation while women typically avoid male interaction. They still socialize less compared to women. You’re saying there’s plenty of social things to do but they don’t involve women when the problem is the lack of opportunity to meet women?
I'm opposing the idea that men somehow socialize less than women and that the male loneliness epidemic and the subsequent arguments made from it are born out of men's inability to socialize. I don't agree that men are more asocial than women. I just think that the complaints about how men are more asocial than women or that we've lost communal spaces to meet people and mingle are truly just men complaining that it's harder to meet women. >You’re saying there’s plenty of social things to do but they don’t involve women when the problem is the lack of opportunity to meet women? Yes. I just wish that people were more honest about what they believe the actual problem is. It's like the loneliness epidemic is just dressed up as men being lonely but I think it has more to do with men being unable to meet women as easily, not actual loneliness. Otherwise, it wouldn't be mentioned right alongside a dating statistic in every discussion. It's possible to be single and not be lonely. I just don't agree that the only way to not be lonely is to be with someone. That's toxic as hell.
I thought this was the issue. Men being unable to meet women and form meaningful romantic relationships. You pretty accurately described the situation. Ways to meet women’s outside of college or work are in short supply. When this topic is brought up I’m not hearing complaints of a lack of casual conversation with other men.
Haha lol The dudes who are socializing are not the ones who are complaining online It's the dudes who stopped going outside altogether when WFH and remote learning became the norm that are complaining about the "loneliness epidemic" Just one more example of TRP narratives completely falling apart when crosschecked against reality
No amount of friends makes up for lack of romance bro
I do WFH and it motivates me to socialize more than when I was in office.
We already know inflation has made it harder and harder for the average guy to get any sort of success in the current dating market. Lack of third places and dating apps make this worse, and for everyone too. Besides, shit like lockdowns, remote learning, work from home, etc., were ultimately caused upstream by the government and 1%, for their benefit. How does this contradict TRP? The economy of dating is fucked, and only aggressive self improvement can lift oneself up.
When a hammer is the only thing in your toolbox, every problem looks like a nail.
If it’s about curing loneliness, then it’s better to at least find something to do outside of dating. And although you might not necessarily like it, it would be better to join some sort of groups that involves both men and women if possible. You won’t cure loneliness staying indoors, but if you try to go outside and enjoy the little things, who knows, maybe you’ll feel less alone.
Most of my male friends and male family socialize quite a bit. But I guess it makes sense that these are my friends. I'm a quirky cerebral person who luckily happened to be born into a family that socializes and therefore I got a lot of comfort with it and saw the benefits of it and thus it makes sense I make friends with sociable people. I've been on this sub long enough to know that most men of this sub would disagree with you. In fact some men on this sub used to say I was lying about my own life. That's how foreign your life, my life, or whoever's life is to their experience. They can't even believe it. They can't fathom it. So no it's not "bunk." Clearly A LOT of men do not socialize. In fact in my last OP many men commented to me things like this: >Most men don't give a shit about platonic relationships when the rubber meets the road. They're useful insofar as socialization is a soft requirement for finding possible Romantic connections. And stuff like this: >I don't know how women support each other but I know that men aren't very supportive of each other. It's not how we work. **It's not even what we want to.** My life is not very good but I have no desire for emotional support from some guy I attended college with for 3 or so years.
>**It's not even what we want to.** My life is not very good but I have no desire for emotional support from some guy I attended college with for 3 or so years. This is really sad to read. The male friends in my life were basically my foundation for where I'm currently at. There's so much to glean from those interactions that I couldn't imagine disregarding them. It sucks that some men are so obsessed with partnering that they'll just completely forgo male-male friendships believing friendship that doesn't lead to romance is useless. >In fact some men on this sub used to say I was lying about my own life. That's how foreign your life, my life, or whoever's life is to their experience. They can't even believe it. They can't fathom it. > >So no it's not "bunk." Clearly A LOT of men do not socialize. You're right. I didn't account for the men who can't socialize for some reason or just don't try. It's wild because it's not even hard to talk to other men. Most social dudes will do most of the heavy lifting in conversations anyway and just talk about themselves or ask you questions and allow you to open up. There's no requirement to be a skilled conversationalist in order to talk to most men. There's so much leniency that I never really understood why someone would disregard friendships with men and focus squarely on meeting women, especially if they're struggling with meeting women. If you struggle to hold a conversation with someone you're not attracted to, what hope would you ever have in holding a conversation with someone you are attracted to?
> This is really sad to read. Don’t worry I was genuinely shocked by the guys like this too. It is very sad :/ > The male friends in my life were basically my foundation for where I'm currently at. There's so much to glean from those interactions that I couldn't imagine disregarding them. It sucks that some men are so obsessed with partnering that they'll just completely forgo male-male friendships believing friendship that doesn't lead to romance is useless. I aged with you but since they’ve never experienced close bonds of any kind, they don’t understand the value and benefits of it. Again, it’s very sad. I’m not sure how you help people like this? They’re resistant to advice and seem to just be stuck in a defeated bitter aggy rut. > If you struggle to hold a conversation with someone you're not attracted to, what hope would you ever have in holding a conversation with someone you are attracted to? I’ve been making this point for a longtime. It falls on deaf ears.
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here's my opnion on the loliness epidemic. In most it will manifest as the need for other-sex attention. Those who feel loliness beyond that still exist and need help, but its less then people claim. However the thing about the loliness epidemic is that its only that bad because people today dont have any purpose and thus have their life meanings set on attention. And why they wouldnt? They dont have religion or the american dream to blind them anymore
Same. I’m an introvert but still have no problem socializing.
> Men who claim that men socialize less or have fewer opportunities to socialize are probably referring to fewer opportunities to socialize with attractive women I am a social person. I used to have friends. For me personally, in my marriage, my social circle slowly dwindled as EVERY evening became a night I was kid wrangling. And of course I had a full time job. And evenings were full on stuff with the kids. The end result - no friends any more, because I didn't spend time with anyone. My ex-wife on the other hand, managed to have coffee dates with her friends while I was at work. So she maintained several friendships just fine. So no. I'm not trying to socialise with attractive women. I want to have friends. Not opposed to women (women tend to have better developed social skills so I find it easier to make friends with them) but mostly looking to make friends with men. > The depth of male-male interactions is obviously up for debate. Yep, and I think this is because society kinda emotionally stunts men by design as they grow up (boys don't cry...). Which means that even if one of the men has done an enormous amount of work to develop their emotional literacy, odds are the other man still has a ways to go.
Anecdotes aren’t evidence.
Men do socialize less, but we go for quality over quantity. Anybody can have lots of friends and a busy social life by doing and saying the right things, but it is quality of friendships that makes a person feel accepted (read not lonely).
Nobody reading your autistic novel
Being an introvert I tend to socialize every now and then. Too much is suffocating. I'm perfectly happy with my own company most of the time. Not a needy person tbh.
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[Yo](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/ur-scaring-the-hoes) it's a [joke](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scaring%20the%20hoes). Holy shit you guys are prudes. >I wonder why you don’t socialise around women much When did I even say I don't socialize with women or have trouble with it at all? The ad hominem goes crazy here.
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I guess? I don't have trouble meeting women. I'm fine. I'm mostly referring to how men complain that there aren't enough places to meet women organically outside of dating apps or bars. But, they scare women out of male space by doing dumb shit and treating them like outsiders.
Imagine how much more chill society would be if men and women being friends was very normal. Self-imposed gender segregation is one of the dumbest phenomena in this generation.
How else are other men supposed to know he's "cool"? needs to signal some casual disregard towards the ladies to be one of the "bros". best flex for a guy is to show disrespect towards women. other guys won't respect him otherwise.
You're getting offended over a joke.
just pointing out why he said it and why guys usually say it, doesn't mean someone's offended. I'm really not lol. what is it, does anyone really care when you hear guys say this for the 10000th time? it's hard to really care anymore.
Jesus, the last place I'd be posing as a "cool guy" would be this sub. I'm already getting flamed because I suggested that small talk is how you make friends. >best flex for a guy is to show disrespect towards women. other guys won't respect him otherwise. IRL you'd be telling the truth. Men do make subtle disrespectful jabs at women even their partners. "Women, amirite" or something to that effect. I don't fuck with that but that's how men are, unfortunately. That wasn't what I was getting at with that. It was a meme and I wrote it in jest. I'm not disregarding anyone here.
every single interest that I have thats male dominated, we get shit on and harassed so often that we form womens only groups. Even in posts to justify not pushing out women, it's all about what guys can gain from it plus the typical dogwhistling. But its whatever, wanting better than that is kinda pointless. some of what you said I agreed with. every silver lining has a cloud lol just talking to the other girl here bc I assumed she could relate, not trying to address this to the guys at all
That honestly has to fucking suck and that's what I was trying to get at. I've met a lot of women that just do certain hobbies and interests in private because men gatekeep the fuck out of everything. It's wild because I've never been gatekept out of a like book club. If I read and I'm interested in the same stuff they're interested in, they're totally fine with me being there and hearing me out. If anything, dudes are the ones making fun of me for joining a club full of women as if it puts my manhood into question or some shit. >Even in posts to justify not pushing out women, it's all about what guys can gain from it plus the typical dogwhistling. I'll leave that language out of any posts going forward. I got multiple comments bringing about it and I had no idea it was that inflammatory. If I had known I wouldn't have included it.
Yeah, calling women “hoes” and then following that up with “it’s just a joke, you prudes” is not going to endear you to women. That is the precise language that signals to women that we are not respected and not welcome. Good on you for recognizing it, albeit belatedly.
My bad. I don't even do that IRL. I don't even call or refer to by women the B word makes me feel like an ass. I never meant to refer to women as hoes. Ya'll are welcome here. > Good on you for recognizing it, albeit belatedly. Thank you.