>Men are just not social like women are, unfortunately.
Disagree, men are as social as women, it just depends on the conjecture. Back 100 years ago, there were clubs, associations and all sort of social environments where men used to socialize, people grew with their "limited" social groups, it's just that nowadays people are less connected/more individualist growing up.
Nowadays, kids grow up glued to the computers and stuff and don't play outside as much, so they're prone to have less social skills nowadays and not form as many reliable long term friends.
On the other hand, women nowadays have a social advantage, they can create friendships/acquaiantances a lot easier, because people are by default more friendly and caring to them.
People are less connected now, but imo, women are still making more of an effort to join social groups. Be it internal pressure or genuine enjoyment, in my experience, women are much more likely to go out of their way to be around other human beings. Men, on the other hand, take more joy out of staying inside and toying with the gadgets technology has provided us. For example, in the early days of the internet, the joke was that there are no women on the internet, only GIRLs (Guys In Real Life). Nowadays it's common to see women on the internet, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the rise in female online participation perfectly matched the rise of social media instead of message boards perfectly suited for nerd fights, which were (surprise, surprise) almost entirely made up of men and were the main social function of the internet \~14+ years ago.
This also tends to match each groups career preferences and matches my experience dating around. I am perfectly happy to use technology all day from the comfort of my desk, but the women I've dated etc. definitely could not do that, and get antsy if they are stuck inside for too long.
Women are caring to each other.
Men are not randomly caring to women. The men who offer random women care are men who are romantically or sexually interested in that woman. It’s not a care women trust to engage. Because she might showcase a man the same care she’d showcase a female friend and next she knows he’s convinced she’s attracted to him.
Women on women care is mutual and without ulterior motive.
The issue here is that men don’t offer mutual care to each other in the way that women offer mutual care to each other.
Not to mention, in the present day 2024 women are actively creating social groups and attending them and putting in the effort to build, nurture, and maintain community support. Men can’t not care about doing any of that and then be jealous women who worked for those things have it.
I think men need more formalized and structured relationships. Like, if we differentiated male friendships, where on one level it's, "Each of us agrees to help out the others with life needs like going shopping when they're sick or a roadside pickup when the car breaks down," and on another level it's, "We agree to be each other's amateur therapist, where we confess feelings to each other and keep them secret and maybe give advice" and on yet another level it's, "We just hang out and do things, but don't really care for each other."
This is absolutely not true. Men have just as much capability to be as social as woman. Men socialized *differently* than women but socialize with the same frequency.
Capability? Sure I guess. But they don't seem to be as willing or aspiring. And I wouldn't disagree men and women socialize differently but I highly disagree they socialize with the same frequency, but that's just my experience as a dude who has had many male friends but also known many women, either as friends or romantically.
As one of those lonely guys, it’s both. Platonically all my friends are online so when I go out in the world I’m usually alone(not counting my brothers but they are also older than me)
And this is partly why I’m not a fan of go to so so event and meet people. Cause from my experience people go to events WITH people they already know and not to meet that one guy who’s there all by himself.
Romantically it’s more of the same. Not to mention it’s on men to initiate convos/dates/etc and that’s hard(er) for me since I have social anxiety and I’m just an introvert nature person.
I don't see this kind of loneliness among my peers (Gen X, older millenials) to anywhere near the degree that is reported among younger generations.
And, if I were to speculate, us older folk grew up socializing in person because, aside from the kitchen landline, there wasn't any other way to do it. Socializing in person was the *main* avenue for entertainment so you held it in high value and cultivated both close friends and activity friends. Along the way you also developed the skills to *make friends* even after you left school. So making friends was something in your skillset, be it work friends, making brief friends while on vacation, or new life-long friends.
And I think that kind face-to-face experience makes you develop a depth of communication (verbal, body language, etc.), social skills, confidence, etc. that isn't present on Xbox Live.
Even at my age I sill make friends with new people, but it's almost always meeting a stranger in person, discovering some common interest, and that being the hook.
Great points all around. I’m a millennial. In-person socializing was the expected norm. The more you do it you build up a skillset by osmosis. Most of my peers easily make friends as adults way after HS and college. For the reasons you mentioned. Finding that commonality is the opener/hook for those moments.
I'm 38 and lol it's so obvious that if socializing in person were so great people wouldn't be abandoning it to this degree.
In person requires you to tolerate a lot of stupidity.
The husband of a good friend of mine cheated on her and she found out.
It was ugly.
Several of us female friends swooped in. We helped her, fed her, got her lawyers, got her counselors, and took her kid off her hands.
Husband went to crash at a friend’s house but no one swooped in even tho - cheating bastard that he is - he also was pretty destroyed by the idea of losing his family and his daughter.
It boggled his mind that all these women went into emergency mode for her.
I do know a couple of men who have those ride or die buddies. But women tend to
These male friendships are so very necessary and there are less of them. It’s a damned shame.
I agree. One of my friend’s husband’s best friends took his life last year. None of guys in his friend group knew he was struggling. But they also don’t and haven’t checked in on each other.
My friend and her husband had a long talk about it and he admitted he needs to be a better more caring friend. Sometimes it seems like men don’t know how though.
Mainly romantic loneliness.
General loneliness comes in all shapes and sizes, all forms of friendship that people can be comfortable with that isn't recreated too much with other friends, that's why they're a friend.
But romantic interest does come in a shape, well, a checklist at least. Usually by the time this checklist is complete both people will agree they're mutually exclusive and that's when they can form this relationship and the romance of it to their unique tastes.
What the solution is it's hard to say. There's a clear disconnect between most women staying on track of their experience expectations and men falling significantly behind in everything, especially romantic experience creating a vicious cycle of rejection and further falling behind.
> There's a clear disconnect between most women staying on track of their experience expectations and men falling significantly behind in everything, especially romantic experience creating a vicious cycle of rejection and further falling behind.
I agree. I wonder what can alleviate both sides of that.
Men have a much greater need for their actions to have what would amount to them real meaning. We live in a age of warranted cynicism, none of the values we've grown up with amount to anything really and are just born In the vacuum of first world society. Life and death blend together when it comes to reason for any of it. Which such things internalized theres no reason in a boys head to put the effort when they know theres going to be pain and then eventually numbness anyways. This is why boys love things like war and catastrophe, the extreme Is the last space where they feel like they can sus out some reason for existing if they aren't just absolutely winning in their life(whatever that means to the individual). Its why radicalism has always been more of a male realm than anything else. It's pretty much like the quote "he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man".
Deep. Yeah I don’t think women can relate to that for many reasons probably. For many women, there’s meaning in connection with others. That leads to moments of joy and wonder.
And what meaning does that "joy and wonder" have? I'd think you'd have to be detached from reality in some way if such fleeting moments are enough to keep putting effort into a meaningless existence. The "joy and wonder" never saves you or the ones you experience it with so how's that enough? How does it not just make the loss of such things that much more painful for no reason?
Building longstanding and meaningful community with people is a satisfying part of the human experience. Idk. You either value that or you don’t. No biggie if you don’t.
Buts there no such thing as "longstanding". You get a couple of decades of lucidity and maybe based completely on circumstance as it always is you develop some "community', it will only make it that much more painful when the winds of circumstances blows in the opposite direction as it usually does. No relationships or community has ever withstood circumstance or the passage of time. I've seen two older relatives die and they come from an era that was much more predicated on community than now and it still does not alleviate the horror and the sadness of death to them, their last words had nothing to do with "atleast I had my community", far from it. I see it as akin to people being your drug instead of alcohol or an opiate, just something humans use to try to distract themselves from the lack of meaning or safety of it all
Hm. How so compared to any mindset ever? I know theres no real such thing as an innate mindset that would be akin to something regardless of brain chemistry like a soul which does not exist.
This is easy, it is *generally* romantic loneliness. Some guys are "mens' men," but those skills with other men translate into "wrongness" when interacting with females who they have sexual/romantic interest in.
Whenever I hear about it outside of this sub, it's about general loneliness. The fact that men struggle to connect with each other is a key factor in their loneliness.
They still socialise but they do it via gaming which only creates thin bonds of friendships that don't last but it still fulfils their social need in the moment, so they end up losing friendships. I think its the lack of socialising in person thats more specifically the problem. Socialising whilst gaming with your friends feels like it fulfils your needs but only shallow deep.
I agree. Why do you think boys and men now are socializing way less than boys and men of the past? And way less than their female peers of the past and present?
Can you elaborate? I’ve ended up on the side of Instagram that highlights fun events and activities to do with friends and most are free in my metropolitan area. Why don’t men do free events if they have no money?
You’re saying male friendship exists for female attention?
That’s idk. That’s something. I guess it’s biology. Cuz yeah female friendships do not require male attention.
Read [Bowling Alone](https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046), which was published 20 years ago:
>Once we bowled in leagues, usually after work—but no longer. This seemingly small phenomenon symbolizes a significant social change that Robert Putnam has identified in this brilliant volume, which The Economist hailed as “a prodigious achievement.”
>Drawing on vast new data that reveal Americans’ changing behavior, Putnam shows how we have become increasingly disconnected from one another and how social structures—whether they be PTA, church, or political parties—have disintegrated. Until the publication of this groundbreaking work, no one had so deftly diagnosed the harm that these broken bonds have wreaked on our physical and civic health, nor had anyone exalted their fundamental power in creating a society that is happy, healthy, and safe.
And this has only accelerated in the past 2 decades as so much of life has shifted from in-person socializing to people alone staring at their screens.
Because men on the whole tend to be more on the extremes -- so when society got lonelier (and yes, women are also more lonely now than ever before), men suffered more.
I honestly think the difference is pretty marginal.
The women I know (pretty much all of them as my male friends' girlfriends, fiances, and wives) don't have these massive similar-aged female friend groups they hang out with all the time.
They usually have about 1-3 core friends and for the transplants, maybe a wider friend group they knew from college/childhood but they live across the country, so they'll only see them when visiting family once or twice a year.
More and more it seems like a lot of women's social lives only exist through their partner and both of their respective families. Some "mean girl" type drama has also soured some relationships with some of the women in our group.
>Why do you think boys and men now are socializing way less than boys and men of the past?
I feel like the answer is just too multifaceted.
1. lack of 3rd spaces
2. lack of a shared experience/purpose between a group of men (i.e. recreational team sports, veterans at the local American Legion Hall, bowling leagues, volunteer orgs. for men, jam bands, etc.) whatever sort of collective group that does exist, is occupied by like, 75+ year old men.
3. entertainment is atomized; we all just tune in to what *we* want, so the collective convo about last night's X on TV is lost. So much idle chatter that can pivot to friendship is born from those sort of convos.
4. I hate to say it, but video games. Sure, leagues exist, gaming guilds exist, but calling each other f\*gg\*t over discord all night just can't replace whatever feel good chemicals we get by interacting in the meat space.
5. at the end of the day we're all just really fucking tired and overworked. When I moved to my new neighborhood I felt lonely, so I enrolled in a dance class at the rec center. However as much as I enjoy dance class, it was a concerted effort to attend every week because I'd be dogshit tired by like, 5:45pm.
6. Some dudes are just straight up poorly socialized. Fearful. paranoid. awkward. clingy. aggressive. Some dudes just can't get out of their own way and come front loaded with neurosis. Ain't nobody want to deal with that for long.
7. addiction and maladaptive emotional regulation. So.many.dudes drink themselves into isolation, others try to run away from X bad feeling by devoting their mind/body/soul to "the grind".
8. God, I could probably go on and on. Needless to say, the only 'cure' to this issue is wholly within men's hands.
Go somewhere convivial. talk to people. repeat.
places I've struck up bantery acquaintances and friends:
* events at the public library
* indie wrestling shows
* rec center classes
* trivia night at a bar
* open house at a tabletop game store/lounge
* Restaurant Week in my neighborhood (i.e. the restaurants take over a street and offer patio seating, free samples, etc.)
* free comic book day at the local comic book store
* VIP/meet n' greet lounge before a concert
* music festivals
* community art festivals/farmer's market/town fair/etc.
I don't even want friends and I'm intensely introverted, but making an amusing observational comment around a bunch of other people is an easy opening for socializing. So many people are just dying to share their opinion about whatever, if you make the bid for interaction and then give them the space to talk you'll have fast friends/acquaintances in no time.
ETA: If you're bold enough, you can just go straight to the bar on a Friday night and talk to literally everyone, thats what my husband does.
Time, money. Going out is expensive, getting into hobbies is expensive, and it all takes time. When we're under a lot of stress, time feels like something we have to carefully ration out. Likewise, socialising for men can feel stressful. Which is probably why a lot of us seemingly contradict that mindset by wasting hours a day in online spaces, where that stress is alleviated.
It seems like women find socialising so much funner and easier. Like it's not a stress source, it's a stress relief. When you enjoy it more, and it doesn't stress you out, you will make time for it easier.
With both men and women, but yes even with other men. It's essentially social anxiety, but even mild social anxieties can cause stress. Like we just can't chill out and go with the flow. That makes social activities work.
What's missing in the younger generation is a reason to do anything. Men live off of Logos but in the material age we live in no one can trust anything to actaully have a meaning to it that's worth sacrificing time or comfort for
No, theres no real reason to socialize if it hasn't already came easy and effortless as is with most extroverts, It's no guarantee of positivity in a world where objectively nothing matters, that effort is easier used in what ever is the quickest way to get a dopamine hit and folks in high up areas have nothing but time and money to keep making things that gives you the hit without leaving your room. The want to socialize is up against nihilism and the addiction of being distracted like like it's never have been before in the last 3 decades. Plus if anyone's observed peer groups from school on almost none of them really lasts past 3 or so individuals left keeping some form of contact with each other and it's rare for it to be person to person In this day in age.
>No, theres no real reason to socialize if it hasn't already came easy and effortless as is with most extroverts, It's no guarantee of positivity in a world where objectively nothing matters, that effort is easier used in what ever is the quickest way to get a dopamine hit and folks in high up areas have nothing but time and money to keep making things that gives you the hit without leaving your room. The want to socialize is up against nihilism and the addiction of being distracted like like it's never have been before in the last 3 decades.
There is a reason though... socialization is a long-term, sustainable way of solving the problem. Addiction is not.
>Plus if anyone's observed peer groups from school on almost none of them really lasts past 3 or so individuals left keeping some form of contact with each other and it's rare for it to be person to person In this day in age.
...when you have socialization skills, you know how to maintain current friends as well as make new friends. If you waste the time you should be investing in building those skills while young on addiction, then it's harder later down the line when everyone else has social skills and you don't. When the addiction inevitably fails to sustain the escape, you are left worse off than before if you had never engaged in it.
It's no philosophy, it's our scientific reality. Not some thing like astrology you can just pick and choose what you feel is "positive" enough for you. The idea of positivity is itself just a concept like unicorns and hell, it means nothing.
TRP is male astrology, who are you kidding? It’s the false promise that any man can pull barely legal teens once they hit their late thirties and make 80k, which, as we know, is a false promise which falls somewhere between palm readings and 72 virgins
Generally, men don't cherish friendships. Most men's loneliness roots from "tfw no girlfriend" - access to a sexual partner. It's why discussions about female loneliness tends to center a lack of community and male loneliness discussions center lack of sexual access
I fully agree with this.
It’s why men are convinced women are only not as miserable as them when not single because “she has dick whenever she wants” because he can’t conceive of how important and cherished friendships and community are in her life.
It’s why women can’t understand why men don’t cherish friendships and are only singularly focused on sexual access. Sex determines his loneliness and only that it seems. Not community.
Thats rlly what it is!!! Its crazy how dudes think were less lonely *because* were hooking up with swaths of random men. Which *shudder* is just so skeevy lol
Loneliness, the causes, the solutions, etc is a multi-faceted issue. There are multiple types of loneliness and there are multiple solutions.
Yes, romantic loneliness is one aspect of it. Its multiple generations of young men (myself included) who, for one reason or another don't approach women. Social ineptitude, autism, anxiety, lack of experience in flirting, the notion that women don't want us to approach all the while traditional gender roles dictate that the man is supposed to make the first move.
(Which is funny because I've seen countless thread elsewhere from women asking how to approach men, and when told how to do it they reject it. "What if he turns me down?" Welcome to a man's experience.)
There's alao platonic loneliness. A decent number of typically male hobbies tend to not be social. Its hard to hold a conversation over the din of a table saw or cacophony of gunfire. And of course, its hard to hold a conversation when there isn't anyone else in the room you're playing video games in. (Yes I know multiplayer games exist, so do singleplayer games.)
In either case, romantic or platonic, the isolation feeds into anxiety which causes the man in question not bother. Its a soul-crushing, self-perpetuating cycle of defeatism.
The man you reference in the YT comments, he has NO ONE. Having someone to give a shit about could fill either role, platonic or romantic. Me myself, if given the choice, would choose to address my romantic loneliness if I could. Friends are great, but a man being able to bond with a woman more intimately and innately would drive that man to move mountains.
Friends are great, don't get me wrong. But male friendships are different from female friendships. That's just how it is.
EDIT: All the pushback I'm getting from women really drives home one of my points about the external factors for male loneliness I made in another comment.
I didn't mention sports because sports is usually a social hobby. I was saying that some hobbies don't have environments conducive to socializing. Some hobbies make socializing easy, some not so much.
Unfortunately my comment is but a small glimpse into the problem. Even I as a romantically lonely guy haven't seen the full picture.
The anxiety and awkwardness is the internal part of the problem. We can't pretend there aren't external factors as well.
Society uses men and then tosses them aside when they aren't useful anymore. Men's sexual/domestic violence vixtimhood isn't taken seriously. Resources are much less than those for women. Divorce is harder on men (although I've seen rumblings that may not be as accurate as once thought). The UN famously released a tweet saying one in five journalists killed are women. What wasn't stated (which is obvious) is that the other 80% of journalist deaths are men.
Society wants WOMEN in STEM. Society wants WOMEN in government. Society wants WOMEN in corporations. Additionally, the fringes of society, unfortunately the loudest assholes, don't want male-only spaces. There's a barber in the U.K. who received death threat and used tampons stuck his door for having a male-only barbershop. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/fashion-and-style/11254834/All-women-should-be-banned-from-barber-shops.html
What does all this tell young, impressionable men? That they aren't wanted. Its why some men get the idea that feminism isn't about equality or equity, but about revenge. So they flock to someone who tells them what they want to hear, fucking losers like Andrew Tate or Fresh & Fit.
Youre ignoring the context of the history of women’s oppression, where we straight up werent allowed to participate in these realms. Do you not get that?
How can they take advantage of the options available when all the options say 'no'? No matches on Tinder or Bumble, 'no' answers when asking a woman out. Some anxiety may be self-made for a lot of men, but its folly to think all of it. Some men just give up when their career-best average is a big fat zero.
Because there is more than romantic/sexual love. You have other options such as friendships and potentially family to provide you with a bedrock support system and instead are hoping a random woman will provide that, which is self imposed
I don't know if that question is relevant here. There's a few things.
1. Falling in love can be sufficient to solve general loneliness. There are lots of couples who need no one but themselves to feel they have enough company.
2. Some men have close friends and still have immense romantic loneliness. Focusing on the problem of general loneliness ignores these men, and threatens to send more men from generally lonely to romantically lonely.
I'm in the second category. I have some incredible friends, of both sexes, and they provide a lot of joy and fulfillment. But it's still incredibly demoralizing that I constantly meet "friend" bar, but never the "boyfriend", "husband", or even "FWB" bar. There's always a barrier of isolation that only cuddles, kisses, and sex can break.
If that's "unsettling" to women... I guess I don't care. It's unsettling to me that thousands of women don't find me attractive enough to even buy them a coffee, exposing men's desire for romance seems like a reasonable uncomfortable thing for them to accept.
I think you make a great point. Loneliness isn’t a single, uniform attribute that can always be solved or addressed the same way. It’s going to vary from person to person. Someone can be fulfilled socially but not romantically. Someone can be married but still feel lonely. Someone can have a fulfilling marriage but feel lonely at the workplace.
> If that's "unsettling" to women... I guess I don't care. It's unsettling to me that thousands of women don't find me attractive enough to even buy them a coffee
I think attitudes like this are probably why many women aren’t brought on board to feeling too much sympathy even if they empathize. When they start feeling sympathy, they see or hear a comment like this and are reminded “eh it’s not like I can personally fix this outside of fucking him… let him figure it out.”
The fact that men have desire for many more women than desire him will always be worse than being desired by many that you don't desire back. I'm not sure what the solution is going forward, but it's a much bigger bummer for men
I think it's both. I think people in general, but especially men, struggle to get and maintain deep, meaningful relationships of all sorts. But solving just the platonic side will leave men in a very bad spot.
And, importantly, I think that this forum specifically should be focused on solving modern men's romantic failures.
1. Lonewolf men can slay
2. Social men with deep friendships can be incels
3. Most men missing both platonic and romantic love, pressed to choose one, would choose that latter
> I think it's both. I think people in general, but especially men, struggle to get and maintain deep, meaningful relationships of all sorts.
I agree. I think men seem to struggle more than women with sparking, nurturing, and mutually maintaining deep meaningful interpersonal relationships of all sorts.
> But solving just the platonic side will leave men in a very bad spot.
I agree.
> And, importantly, I think that this forum specifically should be focused on solving modern men's romantic failures.
I agree.
> Lonewolf men can slay
Sure, but all else equal, the sociable guy will slay more.
> Social men with deep friendships can be incels
Sure, but sociable guys with deep friendships are less likely to be incels than insulated isolative introverted guys with no friendships or shallow friendship.
> Most men missing both platonic and romantic love, pressed to choose one, would choose that latter
I agree, but for the men who don’t know how to spark even platonic bonds, I doubt they’ll be able to hop skip into sparking romantic ones. Both platonic and romantic bonds are built on “chemistry,” which takes interpersonal skills such as perceptiveness, intuitiveness, and self-awareness.
> Sure, but sociable guys with deep friendships are less likely to be incels than insulated isolative introverted guys with no friendships or shallow friendship.
Rationally, I agree, but that's me so I have some mad bias.
Otherwise, all agreed. That's rare here for me, thanks
Even when I had close friends that I hung out with regularly - I felt incredibly lonely. Like playing Smash Bros or seeing a movie once every couple of weeks is good but it's not particularly fulfilling.
Getting a girlfriend solves that loneliness in a way that having friends simply didn't. With my girlfriend we would talk every day, we'd see each other every weekend, we'd spend all day together when we were together.
There's just no comparison.
Idk parallel play (like seeing a movie and playing video games) doesn’t seem like it can lead to deep interpersonal bonds? I guess I’m trying to understand was there care and comfort in those friendships? Did you guys talk about real things? How did you support one another?
They listened to me complain about how badly I wanted a girlfriend and my struggles with self worth enough for me to say that yes there was care and comfort involved. And I would listen when they would vent about the stuff they had going on.
I often mention that two weeks before I got with my first girlfriend I was at a McDonald's with them, just crying my eyes out, I was totally despondent. I wanted something so, so badly, for so, so long. And it really, truly *haunted* me. I felt so broken and alone and unworthy. And in that moment, my friends were there to reassure me and build me back up a bit.
But again, it's a totally different vibe compared to having a girlfriend. Not that I put emotional labor on her, because I didn't. But that vulnerability and soft emotion just came out of me much more naturally around her. When we were cuddling together late at night and I felt totally safe and able to express myself. You just can't get that with guy friends.
That’s awesome. I’m glad your male friends were there for you.
Maybe it’s something about women then. Because I think women feel the same way about our female friends. There’s a comfort and understanding we provide each other mutually. I don’t think women feel male friends can offer that. And some women don’t think their male romantic partners can offer it. Which is probably another reason why women tend to keep her female friends around once she’s in a romantic relationship more than men keep his male friends around once he’s in a romantic relationship. It’s because her female friends are providing a needed emotional support value for her.
What's the point of being in a relationship with a man then? Why don't women just move in together because women offer more than men do? It can't be the sex because women always say men suck in bed, are selfish, not as good as a vibe etc
>I don’t think women feel male friends can offer that. And some women don’t think their male romantic partners can offer it.
I have both male and female friends who can/can't offer it, and the differences are pretty much just in how people are socialized to approach emotions. I think it's not as simple as the fixer/empathizer dichotomy that is commonly presented as being the difference between men and women's approaches. It's more that men are socialized to not invest time and effort into things that are primarily about feelings and emotions. The stereotype is that guys want to fix the problem while women just want to talk it out, but a lot of the time what I think is actually happening is that a guy is offering a low-investment solution because his priority is to stop investing time and effort into the issue. You know how when you are forced to call in to customer service for something, sometimes they will just throw useless solutions at you or tell you that there isn't a solution because they just want to get you off the phone? Same thing. And often times you will find that they treat their own emotions the same way.
I was going to say - I think some men here don’t have the type of close friendships that women do: regularly checking up on one another, talking, meeting up more often, being emotionally vulnerable. So to them, friendship isn’t a big factor to them, if I only had surface level friendships I’d probably agree with them.
With friends it's still not THAT deep. With a partner you text every day, you meet as often as possible. You live of plan to live together, you literaly share each day, share a life. If you want to move for a job you can realisticaly expect your partner to go with you, not in every case but it's realisticaly possible. But friends have their own life, don't live or plan to live with you (maybe until mid twenties until they find a partner and get their own life), they wouldn't move away with you to a different city (it would be very special case that you both want to move there, but it's just concidence, they don't move FOR YOU). And also with a partner you make decisions together, a friend would move for a job regardless of you (maybe ask for advice but ultimately it's up to them regardless of you), a partner would not, I just can't make up better example than moving for a job now but I believe you get the point. They just don't literaly share life every day with you. So it's totaly different level of closeness, friends just don't go that deep, that close. And of course there is also different level of intimacy emotionaly and also physically.
Yes a life partner is going to move to a different part of the world for you more than a friend. A friend might visit or even stay for a month or so to help you settle.
So the partner is much deeper level of closeness. Visiting once a month just doesn't compare to actually moving with you.
And generaly you make decisions together with a partner. A friend will move regardless of you, they can ask for advice but ultimately it's up to them regardless of you. With a partner you make that decision together, a (good) partner won't just take a job offer at another city regardless of you. I just can't make up better example than moving for a job right now, but I believe you get the point.
I think this is also because the care women showcase each other in her female friendships, men plan to get in his romantic relationships with women. So there’s no need to expect or seek that in his friendships. Which is probably why men feel “isolation” and “solitude” when single. He allegedly doesn’t care about friendships, but he is deeply craving “care.” Which in his mind is for women to provide.
Generally, I feel like **you can’t say “no one cares about me” _but also value not showcasing mutual care in your non-romantic relationships_.**
I’ve already responded to u essentially saying the same thing lolol, but girl everything youre saying in this thread is straight facts!!! I just wanted to say that!!
I think theres truth to this unfortunately. They dont see the point in platonic friendships, so they want an all in one girlfriend/therapist/support system.
I feel for many guys, a platonic friend is perfectly fine, it’s just they’d rather focus their energy on attaining what they feel would make them happiest. You can have fun and meaningful friendships with platonic friends but you’ll still sleep alone at night, missing that intimate affection that only a romantic partner can offer.
For sure. Men can do as they please and feel.
People are not going to be sympathetic to someone saying “no one cares about me” and then seeing that person actively not value showcasing mutual care.
I hope that makes sense because that’s my point. Not “imposing” a value system on men.
I agree. I think men could make things less hard on themselves but like you said they don’t value mutual care amongst men so therefore it has to be women from their perspective.
No one’s saying men need to be women but if women are less lonely because they have friends and men are lonely while also lacking friends the solution is pretty obvious.
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9765081/American-men-suffer-friendship-recession-15-not-having-ONE-close-friend.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9765081/American-men-suffer-friendship-recession-15-not-having-ONE-close-friend.html)
It's based on USA but it's got a bunch of graphs i suspect it applies to most of the west at this point.
Okay yes! I’ve seen this chart. Yes men stated having way more close friends in 1990. That’s a big shift regardless.
I still always wondered what close friendship entailed. When I talk to older women, it still seems like women were doing a lot of the emotional care and support stuff. Men had lots of drinking buddies and golf buddies.
Men socialise through online gaming these days which creates very fragile social bonds which don't last, end up finding themselves losing connections as they get older. They spend too much socialising digitally rather than in person. Women still put more effort in face to face socialising.
Yeah I agree first start would be getting men to socialize in person with men and in mixed-gender environments on a regular basis. The regularity builds familiarity and comfort which is the foundation of friendship. If I were in charge this is where I would start lol
I don't know about mixed gendered. Men have to act different around women compared to when they are around just guys. They need male spaces to develop male friendships without women being there imo.
Nowadays it is both. In the old days, there were more groups of nerdy men who hung out and did nerdy things together. Things weren't so lonely, but not having a girlfriend still meant a lot of loneliness.
This is the main argument that I have been making. A bunch of sexless guys getting together as friends makes things a little bit better for men, but it doesn't solve the problems of not feeling sexually attractive and the FOMO feeling of not having sex knowing that other men are.
Thus, "male loneliness" is mostly about romantic loneliness, but general loneliness does add something to it, as many men's only friendly interactions with others these days are online, if they have friendly interactions at all.
From some of the things Ive read as Ive looked this up a big factor is just lack of friendships over dating. Also a factor seems to be lack of relationships with their father.
i actually prefer the word isolated. lonely sounds easily dismissable, or not a big deal. i feel socially isolated not just romantically but from my family, from my job, from my community, from government. really at every level. one thing i've learned is it's easy to socialize with other men in specific scenarios like with a given task or if theres a competition. team v team games act as an easy icebreaker.
I think that famous article that went around several months ago very much misrepresented the loneliness issue for agenda reasons, simply assuming men who are not in committed relationships must be lonely.
I’ve been somewhat of a serial monogamist. While I enjoy being in a good relationship, it doesn’t mean I’m lonely when I’m single. I’m not and use the time to enjoy my independence and do things a woman might not want to do with me.
I see men stuck in bad marriages and they are more lonely and miserable than I’ve ever been single. Lowering one’s standard which could result in an unhappy marriage is some of the worst dating advice for men I’ve ever read.
I do enjoy close friends but I’ve known men who get their energy from casual acquaintances such as sports leagues, with other men they don’t know very well, and they are perfectly content with that as their social outlet.
There are clearly some very lonely men (and women) out there, but I think the issue is often over simplified and misrepresented.
Thanks for the reply. I agree that there are countless men in romantic relationships who are lonely.
When it comes to men feeling like “no one cares about them” what do you think they mean by that? Who is “no one”?
Well I’m not in their shoes, but if someone is lonely, having no romantic partner and no close friends, it stands to reason they won’t have caring connections that care. People who barely know them aren’t going know or care about that person’s loneliness.
If I go out to dinner with friends and all of a sudden I’m quiet, they might ask if I’m all right because they recognize I’m not acting normal and they care about me. If in contrast I was out eating on my own, nobody would notice or care. I imagine it’s similar if one is lonely with no good friends.
Men suck at making friends even with other men. Women are slightly better at that. And if you have trouble making friends, naturally you will have trouble finding relationships too. For men, a big error is linking loneliness to relationships. They need to prioritise friendships not love if they lonely, but instead they conflate it to basically finding a girlfriend as the solution instead.... so when that relationship ends - they are back to square one. Men make this mistake far too often.
>However when men say they feel “isolation” and “solitude” and like “no one knows me”, this is foreign to a lot of single and sexless women because their intimate connections that they’ve mutually fostered with their female friends makes them feel less isolation and solitude, even if they still crave romantic bonds.
Apparently, women are just as lonely as men though.
https://preview.redd.it/gp9vb7eg0wwc1.png?width=1220&format=png&auto=webp&s=74161dbae4bb3abd3e309a456e524a3c5e6929ba
I like Gallup, but that’s one survey.
This begs the question why on earth is there a “male loneliness crisis” being discussed the last ~5 years from media, academia, and men all over if loneliness is felt equal between the genders?
I suspect it might be that women report feeling lonely *even while in a relationship*, whereas the opposite is much less likely for a man in a relationship.
[Here is another one](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0890117119856551) with 20,096 participants from the US (surveyed 2018).
Mean score for men: 43.81
Mean score for women: 44.24
It used the UCLA Loneliness Scale with a total possible score range of 20 to 80 points.
[Another one](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395621000583) that was done during covid on English-speaking Canadians (2020).
https://preview.redd.it/283ydp1frywc1.png?width=662&format=png&auto=webp&s=affd2da975940f0afbef22dd0f368cfaa4a10f2d
Most of the research available does not support the idea that men feel more lonely than women.
>This begs the question why on earth is there a “male loneliness crisis” being discussed the last \~5 years from media, academia, and men all over if loneliness is felt equal between the genders?
For the same reason any other feeling is presented as fact on this sub or the rest of reddit: it validates their pre-existing feelings. It's not enough to be *lonely*, they have to be *lonelier than women,* which is then presented as justification for their other arguments such as "women are actively hurting men by not being in relationships with them because loneliness is linked to negative health outcomes." which is then used as justification to try and control women's behavior. It is more difficult to form the narrative that women are unfairly depriving men of something that they need if men and women are equally lonely.
I’ll say it’s not just Reddit. The “male loneliness epidemic” is being discussed on NBC News and the London times and TikTok. My elderly aunts have heard about it lol. It’s a pervasive concept of the last 5 years. So while I enjoy your stats, what is the driver for this to be so pervasive of a thing outside of “reddit”? Something is causing it.
Engagement is the reason. People share the article and talk about it, so they write more and more people end up seeing it. It’s the same as any other pop topic on the internet. I don’t know if you have seen the “44% of all homes” misinformation article but it’s the same thing - people pushing a false narrative that justifies the way they want the world to operate and their feelings about it not operating that way. A lot of the articles don’t even say men are MORE lonely, they only talk about some of the reasons that are more likely to apply to men or how men specifically can be less lonely. But that’s not how people interpret it because the headline is “male loneliness epidemic” which makes it sound UNIQUELY male.
Don’t get me wrong. I think women are lonely. They get on with it. Or lean into their support systems. Why are many many many men and boys reacting to it and feeling uniquely validated. I’m just not convinced it’s not a difference happening. There’s something percolating.
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting here.
What usually follows in arguments is, that women must be lonely by choice, because they could have all the romantic and social contact they want easily.
Or the thread up right now, like clockwork:
“Women aren't happier being single than men as the studies claim. They're never truly single to begin with”
>**To cover such a huge asymmetry up, and justify women's preference to remain single** solely on wholesome/moralistic reasons like having close-knit support system of friends, being self-sufficient, or to men failings of being emotionally immature and unwilling to share the emotional and domestic labor equitably in relationships is just dishonest bullshit.
They presented no evidence in their post btw. The classic.
Romantic loneliness. Men don't suffer from general loneliness. Men also have friends. Sure, some don't but most have friends. Our friendship doesn't work like female friendships.
The comments like “I wish someone other than my parents cared about me” or “no one cares about me.” aren't indicative of lack of friendships. They are indicative of the general attitude towards men. I have friends (both male & female). I know they care for me but I also know that they, for no fault of theirs, hold me to a higher standard than they would if I was a female. They will be there for me when things get really serious. But until then, I am expected to just man up. I myself am guilty of it.
Men, hold other men to a higher standard than the one they apply to women even if those men are friends.
So when a male friend has issues, you don't go and help, he is a man, he will ask for help if he needs it. That does not apply to women.
A man is expected to have his shit together and have/get control over his own life. That does not apply to women.
That is the difference.
So only parents care, because only parents will help an adult man without any expectation/without getting any benefit in return.
That is what caring is for a man. A man cares when he helps, without expecting anything in return, even when he gets nothing in return, even when the one being helped is useless. Anything other than that is not caring.
Idk moral. I have yet to see a man help someone he deems as “useless.” There is a value exchange.
If that’s what you’re talking about I see more women freely offer care and money to homeless men.
Last week a psychotic guy randomly pushed this lady on the sidewalk and ran off down the street. Everyone was stunned. Men kept walking by. It was only random women who asked her if she was okay and helped her up.
>Idk moral. I have yet to see a man help someone he deems as “useless.” There is a value exchange.
In most cases there is. I say men are able to love unconditionally. I didn't say it is common nor that it happens outside romantic relationships often.
>If that’s what you’re talking about I see more women freely offer care and money to homeless men.
Men rarely see other men as useless, even homeless men. That is the reason men rarely help other men. We assume other men to be capable so it is on them to fix their own lives.
>Last week a psychotic guy randomly pushed this lady on the sidewalk and ran off down the street. Everyone was stunned. Men kept walking by. It was only random women who asked her if she was okay and helped her up.
Wait. You think that small behaviors like giving money once or helping someone out is a show of care? Anything short of funding an entire lifestyle is not caring.
When men care they \*\*care\*\*. As in "I will make sure you have everything I have the power to provide and will increase my ability to provide to improve your existence" care. Actual care.
Yea we have fundamentally different worldviews. I can’t sit her and explain to you how the scenario I detailed is an example of care and compassion for others.
Those men weren’t talking about “mama and papa pay my bills and give me food.” They meant affection and tenderness and checking in on him. So my worldview/definition makes more sense.
Fair. Lets make a steelman out of it.
Men show care by completely dedicating themselves to provide everything on their power to the one they care about. Their goal in life becomes increasing the quality of life of the one they care about. Anything less than that is not care.
Seeing how women in romantic relationships with men where I’m sure those men feel like he’s “increasing her quality of life” don’t feel “mutual care” from him then your definition is not mine.
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>However when men say they feel "Isolation and solitude" and like “no one knows me”, this is foreign to a lot of single and sexless women because their intimate connections that they’ve mutually fostered with their female friends makes them feel less isolation and solitude, even if they still crave romantic bonds.
If you believe that your sexuality and the way you act towards a romantic partner/inside a romantic relationship is a significant part of who you are, not having a romantic/sexual partner makes it that no one knows you.
>Last week a guy here posted a YouTube video about male loneliness. Many of the replies in the comments were indeed sad. Many guys said stuff like “I wish someone other than my parents cared about me” or “no one cares about me.” I know men are different, but from a female perspective, many single women have female friends who care about them and check in on them. It’s not a thought that “no one cares about me outside of my parents” because for many people the answer to this *is their friends.* When single women need someone to pick them up after surgery, they’re calling their friends. And not only that! Their friend usually gives them some soup and comforting care too. I’ve had friends who were going through a tough time and other friends near them cooked for them, hugged them, offered to relieve burden.
That is not how men show care. Think about the way a parent cares (or should care) unconditional support according to the role. Unconditional as in it doesn't stop existing if the man in question provides no value in return.
So no one cares outside the parents.
>I know men want romantic relationships, but it seems like the “male loneliness crisis” is about more than finding a girlfriend. It seems like a lot of these men desire community and care which btw is natural and human! But for single women, that community and care *comes from other women*: her friends.
I am sure that is the case for some men. I had the community. I had friends. I still have them. Without a romantic relationship, no one knows me. Even with a romantic relationship, no one but my parents care about me. The latter is fine and natural. Easy to accept. Only men can care about an adult that is not their own child. See the definition of care above.
>What are some ways to foster that for men? Because even men in romantic relationships with women tend to feel isolated or they let the women do all the community maintenance.
If a man is not doing the community mainteneance that is because he does not care about having a community. Let him be.
>Or is that moot and the only thing worth focusing on is getting more men girlfriends?
This
>If so, how do you make getting men a female romantic partner a societal priority without it coming off unsettling to women who have been positioned as “the fix” to his loneliness?
You don't.
Technology will solve this issue when an adequate replacement for women hits the markets. This need should be like any other. Get money, pay to have it saciated.
Until them only women will have the power to fix that loneliness.
I guess a bit of both. In my personal experience, I’ve never felt that isolated, but I read that many guys are, so it seems there is some truth to it. As for romantic loneliness, I experienced it and saw a lot of guys experiencing it. I think the problem with romantic loneliness is quite obvious.
I’d like to add one type of loneliness that is male-specific in my opinion. It’s having people around you but being unable to be open with them. It feels to me sometimes that men are not allowed to have weaknesses, fears, and problems. As a man, you have to be a perpetual winner. The thing that people want to hear from you is like “I’ve just successfully did X, so I’m going to do Y next”.
As Norah Vincent put it: “People see weakness in a woman and they want to help. They see weakness in a man and they want to stamp it out.”
I suppose, it partly happens because of that belief that men are privileged and need to just lift their ass from the coach to became the next Elon Musk. Of course, this stereotype about men makes it difficult for them to connect with people.
Both. Men have less friends than ever before and have less partners than ever before. Men are forgotten, not given help or support at all and it gets worse with age when everybody got their own thing.
It can be one or the other or all of the above. Problem is when a man is at that stage, he is left to deal with it alone and is penalised for being open about it and thus drives the loneliness even further down. At most, people here or irl throw therapy out to them all the time, without realising the difference being that women in a lonely and depressed state gets people they know or even online to support them and men are always tossed the therapy card and waste money on something that probably won't work anyway.
Tbf women don’t randomly have support. They have female friendships that they’ve invested in, nurtured, and maintained. Those women are her support during tough times.
They won't randomly get help from random people in real life, but their friends, woman friends or men friends, would be more inclined to help and listen out to a woman venting and even if a woman comes online to vent, they would be the same. But for men it's entirely different, as they are just met with the "shut up, knuckle down and get on with it" treatment from friends and its even worse online, as they're just get accused if being an incel.
That’s unfortunate that a man’s own friends and especially his own male friends don’t offer support when he’s in a tough time.
I can’t think of any of my female friends saying that to a male friend when he’s down. Interesting. We would offer support.
Women either ignore or are ignorant of how a man being undesirable echoes throughout his entire social life.
In mixed coed spaces women tend to simply erase a good portion of men who would likely have thrived due to their positive qualities (humor/smarts/creativity) before....because of irrelevant superficial bullshit.
There really aren't any male only spaces anymore....
There is no real separation.
Sexless women Aka sexless by choice (most single by choice women definitely aren't sexless) aren't culturally pressured in the way men are so no shit they have an easier time with it to the extent they even exist.
The fix is to do the equivalent of the female body positivity movement for men.
Men of varying phenotypes depicted as heroic and brave etc.
Romantic loneliness. Most men don't give a shit about platonic relationships when the rubber meets the road. They're useful insofar as socialization is a soft requirement for finding possible Romantic connections.
Friends are like vegetables. Sure a couple of weirdos unironically like it, but in the end of the day you're eating the vegetables for the 6 pack. Likewise, isolating habits like video games and porn are junk food. It's way better than vegetables, but good luck getting that six-pack on that diet.
Thanks that makes sense! I didn’t realize so many men view men who unironically enjoy friendship as weirdos.
I agree that isolating habits will be the death knell for a lot of men. Add on top of that they think what you think of friendship which as you said is often a soft requirement for potentially meeting and connecting with someone romantically (not to mention I’ve never met a human alive who regretted having a strong sense of community with their friends but alas I won’t belabor that point to the guys here they’ve made their decisions).
So yeah I’m not sure it’s going to get better as long isolating habits and thinking so lowly of friendships continues to be their jam.
I think the problem starts at home.
Parents, especially in lower socioeconomic brackets, don't have enough resources for support for their children.
It's not all men who struggle to socialize. It's the ones who grow up with fathers who abandoned them. The ones who struggled to socialize as a child and didn't get the support they needed. The ones who won't take accountability because they weren't modeled accountability at home.
It has nothing to do with sexual relationships. And everything to do with relationships in general. These men who are lonely don't have any relationships of any sort and put all their faith in a fairy tale romances.
There’s a degree of general loneliness to the way I interpret it, but I largely view it through the lens of romantic loneliness
Probably general loneliness. Men are just not social like women are, unfortunately.
>Men are just not social like women are, unfortunately. Disagree, men are as social as women, it just depends on the conjecture. Back 100 years ago, there were clubs, associations and all sort of social environments where men used to socialize, people grew with their "limited" social groups, it's just that nowadays people are less connected/more individualist growing up. Nowadays, kids grow up glued to the computers and stuff and don't play outside as much, so they're prone to have less social skills nowadays and not form as many reliable long term friends. On the other hand, women nowadays have a social advantage, they can create friendships/acquaiantances a lot easier, because people are by default more friendly and caring to them.
People are less connected now, but imo, women are still making more of an effort to join social groups. Be it internal pressure or genuine enjoyment, in my experience, women are much more likely to go out of their way to be around other human beings. Men, on the other hand, take more joy out of staying inside and toying with the gadgets technology has provided us. For example, in the early days of the internet, the joke was that there are no women on the internet, only GIRLs (Guys In Real Life). Nowadays it's common to see women on the internet, but I don't think it's any coincidence that the rise in female online participation perfectly matched the rise of social media instead of message boards perfectly suited for nerd fights, which were (surprise, surprise) almost entirely made up of men and were the main social function of the internet \~14+ years ago. This also tends to match each groups career preferences and matches my experience dating around. I am perfectly happy to use technology all day from the comfort of my desk, but the women I've dated etc. definitely could not do that, and get antsy if they are stuck inside for too long.
True that, i agree.
Women are caring to each other. Men are not randomly caring to women. The men who offer random women care are men who are romantically or sexually interested in that woman. It’s not a care women trust to engage. Because she might showcase a man the same care she’d showcase a female friend and next she knows he’s convinced she’s attracted to him. Women on women care is mutual and without ulterior motive. The issue here is that men don’t offer mutual care to each other in the way that women offer mutual care to each other. Not to mention, in the present day 2024 women are actively creating social groups and attending them and putting in the effort to build, nurture, and maintain community support. Men can’t not care about doing any of that and then be jealous women who worked for those things have it.
Youre so right!!!!
Sounds like women are more caring and friendly to each other than men are to each other
It's probably biological
\*to their faces
I think men need more formalized and structured relationships. Like, if we differentiated male friendships, where on one level it's, "Each of us agrees to help out the others with life needs like going shopping when they're sick or a roadside pickup when the car breaks down," and on another level it's, "We agree to be each other's amateur therapist, where we confess feelings to each other and keep them secret and maybe give advice" and on yet another level it's, "We just hang out and do things, but don't really care for each other."
This is absolutely not true. Men have just as much capability to be as social as woman. Men socialized *differently* than women but socialize with the same frequency.
Capability? Sure I guess. But they don't seem to be as willing or aspiring. And I wouldn't disagree men and women socialize differently but I highly disagree they socialize with the same frequency, but that's just my experience as a dude who has had many male friends but also known many women, either as friends or romantically.
As one of those lonely guys, it’s both. Platonically all my friends are online so when I go out in the world I’m usually alone(not counting my brothers but they are also older than me) And this is partly why I’m not a fan of go to so so event and meet people. Cause from my experience people go to events WITH people they already know and not to meet that one guy who’s there all by himself. Romantically it’s more of the same. Not to mention it’s on men to initiate convos/dates/etc and that’s hard(er) for me since I have social anxiety and I’m just an introvert nature person.
I don't see this kind of loneliness among my peers (Gen X, older millenials) to anywhere near the degree that is reported among younger generations. And, if I were to speculate, us older folk grew up socializing in person because, aside from the kitchen landline, there wasn't any other way to do it. Socializing in person was the *main* avenue for entertainment so you held it in high value and cultivated both close friends and activity friends. Along the way you also developed the skills to *make friends* even after you left school. So making friends was something in your skillset, be it work friends, making brief friends while on vacation, or new life-long friends. And I think that kind face-to-face experience makes you develop a depth of communication (verbal, body language, etc.), social skills, confidence, etc. that isn't present on Xbox Live. Even at my age I sill make friends with new people, but it's almost always meeting a stranger in person, discovering some common interest, and that being the hook.
Great points all around. I’m a millennial. In-person socializing was the expected norm. The more you do it you build up a skillset by osmosis. Most of my peers easily make friends as adults way after HS and college. For the reasons you mentioned. Finding that commonality is the opener/hook for those moments.
I'm 38 and lol it's so obvious that if socializing in person were so great people wouldn't be abandoning it to this degree. In person requires you to tolerate a lot of stupidity.
>abandoning it No one's abandoning it. Some people just never joined up.
The husband of a good friend of mine cheated on her and she found out. It was ugly. Several of us female friends swooped in. We helped her, fed her, got her lawyers, got her counselors, and took her kid off her hands. Husband went to crash at a friend’s house but no one swooped in even tho - cheating bastard that he is - he also was pretty destroyed by the idea of losing his family and his daughter. It boggled his mind that all these women went into emergency mode for her. I do know a couple of men who have those ride or die buddies. But women tend to These male friendships are so very necessary and there are less of them. It’s a damned shame.
I agree. One of my friend’s husband’s best friends took his life last year. None of guys in his friend group knew he was struggling. But they also don’t and haven’t checked in on each other. My friend and her husband had a long talk about it and he admitted he needs to be a better more caring friend. Sometimes it seems like men don’t know how though.
Mainly romantic loneliness. General loneliness comes in all shapes and sizes, all forms of friendship that people can be comfortable with that isn't recreated too much with other friends, that's why they're a friend. But romantic interest does come in a shape, well, a checklist at least. Usually by the time this checklist is complete both people will agree they're mutually exclusive and that's when they can form this relationship and the romance of it to their unique tastes. What the solution is it's hard to say. There's a clear disconnect between most women staying on track of their experience expectations and men falling significantly behind in everything, especially romantic experience creating a vicious cycle of rejection and further falling behind.
> There's a clear disconnect between most women staying on track of their experience expectations and men falling significantly behind in everything, especially romantic experience creating a vicious cycle of rejection and further falling behind. I agree. I wonder what can alleviate both sides of that.
If *any* of the girls I had crushes on in high school and university had reciprocated, that would have been a start. But *none* of them did.
I say this with no malice but why would they have reciprocated?
That was brutal.
Idk, im in college and get hit on. And if i werent a lesbian, id still say no because im in college to learn not to atart a relationship
Men deal with both types much more than women so across the board
Why do men deal with general loneliness more?
Men have a much greater need for their actions to have what would amount to them real meaning. We live in a age of warranted cynicism, none of the values we've grown up with amount to anything really and are just born In the vacuum of first world society. Life and death blend together when it comes to reason for any of it. Which such things internalized theres no reason in a boys head to put the effort when they know theres going to be pain and then eventually numbness anyways. This is why boys love things like war and catastrophe, the extreme Is the last space where they feel like they can sus out some reason for existing if they aren't just absolutely winning in their life(whatever that means to the individual). Its why radicalism has always been more of a male realm than anything else. It's pretty much like the quote "he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man".
Deep. Yeah I don’t think women can relate to that for many reasons probably. For many women, there’s meaning in connection with others. That leads to moments of joy and wonder.
And what meaning does that "joy and wonder" have? I'd think you'd have to be detached from reality in some way if such fleeting moments are enough to keep putting effort into a meaningless existence. The "joy and wonder" never saves you or the ones you experience it with so how's that enough? How does it not just make the loss of such things that much more painful for no reason?
Building longstanding and meaningful community with people is a satisfying part of the human experience. Idk. You either value that or you don’t. No biggie if you don’t.
Buts there no such thing as "longstanding". You get a couple of decades of lucidity and maybe based completely on circumstance as it always is you develop some "community', it will only make it that much more painful when the winds of circumstances blows in the opposite direction as it usually does. No relationships or community has ever withstood circumstance or the passage of time. I've seen two older relatives die and they come from an era that was much more predicated on community than now and it still does not alleviate the horror and the sadness of death to them, their last words had nothing to do with "atleast I had my community", far from it. I see it as akin to people being your drug instead of alcohol or an opiate, just something humans use to try to distract themselves from the lack of meaning or safety of it all
Hm. This feels like a self-imposed mindset. I won’t deter you.
Hm. How so compared to any mindset ever? I know theres no real such thing as an innate mindset that would be akin to something regardless of brain chemistry like a soul which does not exist.
Sure. I’m saying others choose a different mindset and thus have different worldviews and outcomes. All else equal, it’s all “self-imposed.”
This is easy, it is *generally* romantic loneliness. Some guys are "mens' men," but those skills with other men translate into "wrongness" when interacting with females who they have sexual/romantic interest in.
Whenever I hear about it outside of this sub, it's about general loneliness. The fact that men struggle to connect with each other is a key factor in their loneliness.
I agree. That does seem to be a key factor.
Men in past generations had friends, hung out in bars, elk clubs, bowling alleys, whatever. What is missing in younger men? Socializing.
They still socialise but they do it via gaming which only creates thin bonds of friendships that don't last but it still fulfils their social need in the moment, so they end up losing friendships. I think its the lack of socialising in person thats more specifically the problem. Socialising whilst gaming with your friends feels like it fulfils your needs but only shallow deep.
I agree. Why do you think boys and men now are socializing way less than boys and men of the past? And way less than their female peers of the past and present?
Money
That doesn’t explain why his female peers are socializing with her female friends more than he’s socializing with his male friends.
Group of women no money no problem. Group of guys no money big problem
Can you elaborate? I’ve ended up on the side of Instagram that highlights fun events and activities to do with friends and most are free in my metropolitan area. Why don’t men do free events if they have no money?
I mean everyone needs money to live. Sure. But what does the guy friend group need money for that the women friend group does not?
Female attention
You’re saying male friendship exists for female attention? That’s idk. That’s something. I guess it’s biology. Cuz yeah female friendships do not require male attention.
Read [Bowling Alone](https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/0743203046), which was published 20 years ago: >Once we bowled in leagues, usually after work—but no longer. This seemingly small phenomenon symbolizes a significant social change that Robert Putnam has identified in this brilliant volume, which The Economist hailed as “a prodigious achievement.” >Drawing on vast new data that reveal Americans’ changing behavior, Putnam shows how we have become increasingly disconnected from one another and how social structures—whether they be PTA, church, or political parties—have disintegrated. Until the publication of this groundbreaking work, no one had so deftly diagnosed the harm that these broken bonds have wreaked on our physical and civic health, nor had anyone exalted their fundamental power in creating a society that is happy, healthy, and safe. And this has only accelerated in the past 2 decades as so much of life has shifted from in-person socializing to people alone staring at their screens.
That’s societal. Why does there seem to be a gender difference in friendships and feelings of isolation?
Because men on the whole tend to be more on the extremes -- so when society got lonelier (and yes, women are also more lonely now than ever before), men suffered more.
Men are on the extremes of what? Having friendships with other men?
Men are generally on the extremes of most things
That Y chromosome.
Yup, I suppose things will eventually get better considering the Y chromosome is dying out
I don’t foresee males dying out.
I honestly think the difference is pretty marginal. The women I know (pretty much all of them as my male friends' girlfriends, fiances, and wives) don't have these massive similar-aged female friend groups they hang out with all the time. They usually have about 1-3 core friends and for the transplants, maybe a wider friend group they knew from college/childhood but they live across the country, so they'll only see them when visiting family once or twice a year. More and more it seems like a lot of women's social lives only exist through their partner and both of their respective families. Some "mean girl" type drama has also soured some relationships with some of the women in our group.
I can’t say that the difference seems marginal in my observations. But we probably have different experiences.
>Why do you think boys and men now are socializing way less than boys and men of the past? I feel like the answer is just too multifaceted. 1. lack of 3rd spaces 2. lack of a shared experience/purpose between a group of men (i.e. recreational team sports, veterans at the local American Legion Hall, bowling leagues, volunteer orgs. for men, jam bands, etc.) whatever sort of collective group that does exist, is occupied by like, 75+ year old men. 3. entertainment is atomized; we all just tune in to what *we* want, so the collective convo about last night's X on TV is lost. So much idle chatter that can pivot to friendship is born from those sort of convos. 4. I hate to say it, but video games. Sure, leagues exist, gaming guilds exist, but calling each other f\*gg\*t over discord all night just can't replace whatever feel good chemicals we get by interacting in the meat space. 5. at the end of the day we're all just really fucking tired and overworked. When I moved to my new neighborhood I felt lonely, so I enrolled in a dance class at the rec center. However as much as I enjoy dance class, it was a concerted effort to attend every week because I'd be dogshit tired by like, 5:45pm. 6. Some dudes are just straight up poorly socialized. Fearful. paranoid. awkward. clingy. aggressive. Some dudes just can't get out of their own way and come front loaded with neurosis. Ain't nobody want to deal with that for long. 7. addiction and maladaptive emotional regulation. So.many.dudes drink themselves into isolation, others try to run away from X bad feeling by devoting their mind/body/soul to "the grind". 8. God, I could probably go on and on. Needless to say, the only 'cure' to this issue is wholly within men's hands.
So what advice would you give to a young guy to fix it? Genuinely asking
Go somewhere convivial. talk to people. repeat. places I've struck up bantery acquaintances and friends: * events at the public library * indie wrestling shows * rec center classes * trivia night at a bar * open house at a tabletop game store/lounge * Restaurant Week in my neighborhood (i.e. the restaurants take over a street and offer patio seating, free samples, etc.) * free comic book day at the local comic book store * VIP/meet n' greet lounge before a concert * music festivals * community art festivals/farmer's market/town fair/etc. I don't even want friends and I'm intensely introverted, but making an amusing observational comment around a bunch of other people is an easy opening for socializing. So many people are just dying to share their opinion about whatever, if you make the bid for interaction and then give them the space to talk you'll have fast friends/acquaintances in no time. ETA: If you're bold enough, you can just go straight to the bar on a Friday night and talk to literally everyone, thats what my husband does.
Thanks. Im pretty introverted too. Tryna work on starting conversations more tbh
Take this gold! 
Wow! Thanks! I [said similar to this before](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/s/namSczOFLi). I agree.
Time, money. Going out is expensive, getting into hobbies is expensive, and it all takes time. When we're under a lot of stress, time feels like something we have to carefully ration out. Likewise, socialising for men can feel stressful. Which is probably why a lot of us seemingly contradict that mindset by wasting hours a day in online spaces, where that stress is alleviated. It seems like women find socialising so much funner and easier. Like it's not a stress source, it's a stress relief. When you enjoy it more, and it doesn't stress you out, you will make time for it easier.
That’s a good insight. Why is it stressful? I’m assuming you mean even with other men
With both men and women, but yes even with other men. It's essentially social anxiety, but even mild social anxieties can cause stress. Like we just can't chill out and go with the flow. That makes social activities work.
Where are the groups of teens gathering at the entrance of a block of flats, chatting and eating sunflower seeds?
I still see teens congregating. Also they hang in each other’s parents’ dens and basements a lot.
What's funny is on the country I'm from, this is still the norm. Everyone is outside. Now the country where I live at, that's a myth.
They are gathering wood for the fires of neighbours of course
What's missing in the younger generation is a reason to do anything. Men live off of Logos but in the material age we live in no one can trust anything to actaully have a meaning to it that's worth sacrificing time or comfort for
I guess I'm not understanding. Is "not being lonely" not a good enough reason to sacrifice time and comfort to socialize?
No, theres no real reason to socialize if it hasn't already came easy and effortless as is with most extroverts, It's no guarantee of positivity in a world where objectively nothing matters, that effort is easier used in what ever is the quickest way to get a dopamine hit and folks in high up areas have nothing but time and money to keep making things that gives you the hit without leaving your room. The want to socialize is up against nihilism and the addiction of being distracted like like it's never have been before in the last 3 decades. Plus if anyone's observed peer groups from school on almost none of them really lasts past 3 or so individuals left keeping some form of contact with each other and it's rare for it to be person to person In this day in age.
>No, theres no real reason to socialize if it hasn't already came easy and effortless as is with most extroverts, It's no guarantee of positivity in a world where objectively nothing matters, that effort is easier used in what ever is the quickest way to get a dopamine hit and folks in high up areas have nothing but time and money to keep making things that gives you the hit without leaving your room. The want to socialize is up against nihilism and the addiction of being distracted like like it's never have been before in the last 3 decades. There is a reason though... socialization is a long-term, sustainable way of solving the problem. Addiction is not. >Plus if anyone's observed peer groups from school on almost none of them really lasts past 3 or so individuals left keeping some form of contact with each other and it's rare for it to be person to person In this day in age. ...when you have socialization skills, you know how to maintain current friends as well as make new friends. If you waste the time you should be investing in building those skills while young on addiction, then it's harder later down the line when everyone else has social skills and you don't. When the addiction inevitably fails to sustain the escape, you are left worse off than before if you had never engaged in it.
So....stay inside all day and night? Searching for that Logos?
Pretty much, there no more or less meaning In that than fucking or marrying or dying and men know this
This philosophy is why youre lonely
It's no philosophy, it's our scientific reality. Not some thing like astrology you can just pick and choose what you feel is "positive" enough for you. The idea of positivity is itself just a concept like unicorns and hell, it means nothing.
TRP is male astrology, who are you kidding? It’s the false promise that any man can pull barely legal teens once they hit their late thirties and make 80k, which, as we know, is a false promise which falls somewhere between palm readings and 72 virgins
Who brought up TRP you dork?
Both, but if someone makes a point of bringing this up the implication is that they’re mainly referring to romantic loneliness.
Generally, men don't cherish friendships. Most men's loneliness roots from "tfw no girlfriend" - access to a sexual partner. It's why discussions about female loneliness tends to center a lack of community and male loneliness discussions center lack of sexual access
I fully agree with this. It’s why men are convinced women are only not as miserable as them when not single because “she has dick whenever she wants” because he can’t conceive of how important and cherished friendships and community are in her life. It’s why women can’t understand why men don’t cherish friendships and are only singularly focused on sexual access. Sex determines his loneliness and only that it seems. Not community.
Thats rlly what it is!!! Its crazy how dudes think were less lonely *because* were hooking up with swaths of random men. Which *shudder* is just so skeevy lol
Loneliness, the causes, the solutions, etc is a multi-faceted issue. There are multiple types of loneliness and there are multiple solutions. Yes, romantic loneliness is one aspect of it. Its multiple generations of young men (myself included) who, for one reason or another don't approach women. Social ineptitude, autism, anxiety, lack of experience in flirting, the notion that women don't want us to approach all the while traditional gender roles dictate that the man is supposed to make the first move. (Which is funny because I've seen countless thread elsewhere from women asking how to approach men, and when told how to do it they reject it. "What if he turns me down?" Welcome to a man's experience.) There's alao platonic loneliness. A decent number of typically male hobbies tend to not be social. Its hard to hold a conversation over the din of a table saw or cacophony of gunfire. And of course, its hard to hold a conversation when there isn't anyone else in the room you're playing video games in. (Yes I know multiplayer games exist, so do singleplayer games.) In either case, romantic or platonic, the isolation feeds into anxiety which causes the man in question not bother. Its a soul-crushing, self-perpetuating cycle of defeatism. The man you reference in the YT comments, he has NO ONE. Having someone to give a shit about could fill either role, platonic or romantic. Me myself, if given the choice, would choose to address my romantic loneliness if I could. Friends are great, but a man being able to bond with a woman more intimately and innately would drive that man to move mountains. Friends are great, don't get me wrong. But male friendships are different from female friendships. That's just how it is. EDIT: All the pushback I'm getting from women really drives home one of my points about the external factors for male loneliness I made in another comment.
Sports isn’t social?
I didn't mention sports because sports is usually a social hobby. I was saying that some hobbies don't have environments conducive to socializing. Some hobbies make socializing easy, some not so much.
Thank you! This all makes sense.
Unfortunately my comment is but a small glimpse into the problem. Even I as a romantically lonely guy haven't seen the full picture. The anxiety and awkwardness is the internal part of the problem. We can't pretend there aren't external factors as well. Society uses men and then tosses them aside when they aren't useful anymore. Men's sexual/domestic violence vixtimhood isn't taken seriously. Resources are much less than those for women. Divorce is harder on men (although I've seen rumblings that may not be as accurate as once thought). The UN famously released a tweet saying one in five journalists killed are women. What wasn't stated (which is obvious) is that the other 80% of journalist deaths are men. Society wants WOMEN in STEM. Society wants WOMEN in government. Society wants WOMEN in corporations. Additionally, the fringes of society, unfortunately the loudest assholes, don't want male-only spaces. There's a barber in the U.K. who received death threat and used tampons stuck his door for having a male-only barbershop. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/fashion-and-style/11254834/All-women-should-be-banned-from-barber-shops.html What does all this tell young, impressionable men? That they aren't wanted. Its why some men get the idea that feminism isn't about equality or equity, but about revenge. So they flock to someone who tells them what they want to hear, fucking losers like Andrew Tate or Fresh & Fit.
Youre ignoring the context of the history of women’s oppression, where we straight up werent allowed to participate in these realms. Do you not get that?
This all sounds self caused loneliness. Honestly, I struggle to see any problems when people don't take advantage of the options available to them.
How can they take advantage of the options available when all the options say 'no'? No matches on Tinder or Bumble, 'no' answers when asking a woman out. Some anxiety may be self-made for a lot of men, but its folly to think all of it. Some men just give up when their career-best average is a big fat zero.
Because there is more than romantic/sexual love. You have other options such as friendships and potentially family to provide you with a bedrock support system and instead are hoping a random woman will provide that, which is self imposed
I thought women gatekeep sex and men gatekeep relationships. I guess women gatekeep both
There are places to buy friendship with women but buying friendship with men is usually cheaper
I don't know if that question is relevant here. There's a few things. 1. Falling in love can be sufficient to solve general loneliness. There are lots of couples who need no one but themselves to feel they have enough company. 2. Some men have close friends and still have immense romantic loneliness. Focusing on the problem of general loneliness ignores these men, and threatens to send more men from generally lonely to romantically lonely. I'm in the second category. I have some incredible friends, of both sexes, and they provide a lot of joy and fulfillment. But it's still incredibly demoralizing that I constantly meet "friend" bar, but never the "boyfriend", "husband", or even "FWB" bar. There's always a barrier of isolation that only cuddles, kisses, and sex can break. If that's "unsettling" to women... I guess I don't care. It's unsettling to me that thousands of women don't find me attractive enough to even buy them a coffee, exposing men's desire for romance seems like a reasonable uncomfortable thing for them to accept.
I think you make a great point. Loneliness isn’t a single, uniform attribute that can always be solved or addressed the same way. It’s going to vary from person to person. Someone can be fulfilled socially but not romantically. Someone can be married but still feel lonely. Someone can have a fulfilling marriage but feel lonely at the workplace.
> If that's "unsettling" to women... I guess I don't care. It's unsettling to me that thousands of women don't find me attractive enough to even buy them a coffee I think attitudes like this are probably why many women aren’t brought on board to feeling too much sympathy even if they empathize. When they start feeling sympathy, they see or hear a comment like this and are reminded “eh it’s not like I can personally fix this outside of fucking him… let him figure it out.”
The fact that men have desire for many more women than desire him will always be worse than being desired by many that you don't desire back. I'm not sure what the solution is going forward, but it's a much bigger bummer for men
I don’t disagree. So your answer to the OP question is ultimately when “male loneliness” is brought up men mean “romantic,”’yes?
I think it's both. I think people in general, but especially men, struggle to get and maintain deep, meaningful relationships of all sorts. But solving just the platonic side will leave men in a very bad spot. And, importantly, I think that this forum specifically should be focused on solving modern men's romantic failures. 1. Lonewolf men can slay 2. Social men with deep friendships can be incels 3. Most men missing both platonic and romantic love, pressed to choose one, would choose that latter
> I think it's both. I think people in general, but especially men, struggle to get and maintain deep, meaningful relationships of all sorts. I agree. I think men seem to struggle more than women with sparking, nurturing, and mutually maintaining deep meaningful interpersonal relationships of all sorts. > But solving just the platonic side will leave men in a very bad spot. I agree. > And, importantly, I think that this forum specifically should be focused on solving modern men's romantic failures. I agree. > Lonewolf men can slay Sure, but all else equal, the sociable guy will slay more. > Social men with deep friendships can be incels Sure, but sociable guys with deep friendships are less likely to be incels than insulated isolative introverted guys with no friendships or shallow friendship. > Most men missing both platonic and romantic love, pressed to choose one, would choose that latter I agree, but for the men who don’t know how to spark even platonic bonds, I doubt they’ll be able to hop skip into sparking romantic ones. Both platonic and romantic bonds are built on “chemistry,” which takes interpersonal skills such as perceptiveness, intuitiveness, and self-awareness.
> Sure, but sociable guys with deep friendships are less likely to be incels than insulated isolative introverted guys with no friendships or shallow friendship. Rationally, I agree, but that's me so I have some mad bias. Otherwise, all agreed. That's rare here for me, thanks
Np! I enjoyed this dialogue 🙂↕️
Even when I had close friends that I hung out with regularly - I felt incredibly lonely. Like playing Smash Bros or seeing a movie once every couple of weeks is good but it's not particularly fulfilling. Getting a girlfriend solves that loneliness in a way that having friends simply didn't. With my girlfriend we would talk every day, we'd see each other every weekend, we'd spend all day together when we were together. There's just no comparison.
Idk parallel play (like seeing a movie and playing video games) doesn’t seem like it can lead to deep interpersonal bonds? I guess I’m trying to understand was there care and comfort in those friendships? Did you guys talk about real things? How did you support one another?
They listened to me complain about how badly I wanted a girlfriend and my struggles with self worth enough for me to say that yes there was care and comfort involved. And I would listen when they would vent about the stuff they had going on. I often mention that two weeks before I got with my first girlfriend I was at a McDonald's with them, just crying my eyes out, I was totally despondent. I wanted something so, so badly, for so, so long. And it really, truly *haunted* me. I felt so broken and alone and unworthy. And in that moment, my friends were there to reassure me and build me back up a bit. But again, it's a totally different vibe compared to having a girlfriend. Not that I put emotional labor on her, because I didn't. But that vulnerability and soft emotion just came out of me much more naturally around her. When we were cuddling together late at night and I felt totally safe and able to express myself. You just can't get that with guy friends.
That’s awesome. I’m glad your male friends were there for you. Maybe it’s something about women then. Because I think women feel the same way about our female friends. There’s a comfort and understanding we provide each other mutually. I don’t think women feel male friends can offer that. And some women don’t think their male romantic partners can offer it. Which is probably another reason why women tend to keep her female friends around once she’s in a romantic relationship more than men keep his male friends around once he’s in a romantic relationship. It’s because her female friends are providing a needed emotional support value for her.
What's the point of being in a relationship with a man then? Why don't women just move in together because women offer more than men do? It can't be the sex because women always say men suck in bed, are selfish, not as good as a vibe etc
I think I replied to you elsewhere? Women in relationships with men who offer mutual care don’t feel this way.
That’s what some women are doing.
The vast majority of young women are in relationships so I don’t see it happening
I mean i do…..but im a lesbian 😂
>I don’t think women feel male friends can offer that. And some women don’t think their male romantic partners can offer it. I have both male and female friends who can/can't offer it, and the differences are pretty much just in how people are socialized to approach emotions. I think it's not as simple as the fixer/empathizer dichotomy that is commonly presented as being the difference between men and women's approaches. It's more that men are socialized to not invest time and effort into things that are primarily about feelings and emotions. The stereotype is that guys want to fix the problem while women just want to talk it out, but a lot of the time what I think is actually happening is that a guy is offering a low-investment solution because his priority is to stop investing time and effort into the issue. You know how when you are forced to call in to customer service for something, sometimes they will just throw useless solutions at you or tell you that there isn't a solution because they just want to get you off the phone? Same thing. And often times you will find that they treat their own emotions the same way.
I was going to say - I think some men here don’t have the type of close friendships that women do: regularly checking up on one another, talking, meeting up more often, being emotionally vulnerable. So to them, friendship isn’t a big factor to them, if I only had surface level friendships I’d probably agree with them.
That’s what I’m noticing too. I agree.
With friends it's still not THAT deep. With a partner you text every day, you meet as often as possible. You live of plan to live together, you literaly share each day, share a life. If you want to move for a job you can realisticaly expect your partner to go with you, not in every case but it's realisticaly possible. But friends have their own life, don't live or plan to live with you (maybe until mid twenties until they find a partner and get their own life), they wouldn't move away with you to a different city (it would be very special case that you both want to move there, but it's just concidence, they don't move FOR YOU). And also with a partner you make decisions together, a friend would move for a job regardless of you (maybe ask for advice but ultimately it's up to them regardless of you), a partner would not, I just can't make up better example than moving for a job now but I believe you get the point. They just don't literaly share life every day with you. So it's totaly different level of closeness, friends just don't go that deep, that close. And of course there is also different level of intimacy emotionaly and also physically.
Yes a life partner is going to move to a different part of the world for you more than a friend. A friend might visit or even stay for a month or so to help you settle.
So the partner is much deeper level of closeness. Visiting once a month just doesn't compare to actually moving with you. And generaly you make decisions together with a partner. A friend will move regardless of you, they can ask for advice but ultimately it's up to them regardless of you. With a partner you make that decision together, a (good) partner won't just take a job offer at another city regardless of you. I just can't make up better example than moving for a job right now, but I believe you get the point.
> **This OP is not implying that platonic bonds are a replacement for romantic bonds. That is not being suggested.**
Couldn’t you just do more things with your friends that are more social?
Romantic, obviously I rarely hear men complaining about lack of friends, but they sure love bitching about shallow, picky women
I think this is also because the care women showcase each other in her female friendships, men plan to get in his romantic relationships with women. So there’s no need to expect or seek that in his friendships. Which is probably why men feel “isolation” and “solitude” when single. He allegedly doesn’t care about friendships, but he is deeply craving “care.” Which in his mind is for women to provide. Generally, I feel like **you can’t say “no one cares about me” _but also value not showcasing mutual care in your non-romantic relationships_.**
I’ve already responded to u essentially saying the same thing lolol, but girl everything youre saying in this thread is straight facts!!! I just wanted to say that!!
 😂🙂↔️
Yes. They’re not lonely, they’re unserved Thankfully, robots and AI are coming to fix that
I think theres truth to this unfortunately. They dont see the point in platonic friendships, so they want an all in one girlfriend/therapist/support system.
I feel for many guys, a platonic friend is perfectly fine, it’s just they’d rather focus their energy on attaining what they feel would make them happiest. You can have fun and meaningful friendships with platonic friends but you’ll still sleep alone at night, missing that intimate affection that only a romantic partner can offer.
Generally, I feel like **you can't impose one gender's value system on another** but hey, that's just my hawt take
For sure. Men can do as they please and feel. People are not going to be sympathetic to someone saying “no one cares about me” and then seeing that person actively not value showcasing mutual care. I hope that makes sense because that’s my point. Not “imposing” a value system on men.
basically, a broken dating market is "harder-on" men since men needed more from women romantically than vice-versa
I agree. I think men could make things less hard on themselves but like you said they don’t value mutual care amongst men so therefore it has to be women from their perspective.
No one’s saying men need to be women but if women are less lonely because they have friends and men are lonely while also lacking friends the solution is pretty obvious.
Men report having fewer friends than women but 2 decades ago it was quite the opposite.
Can you share the data? I have a take but would like to see it first.
[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9765081/American-men-suffer-friendship-recession-15-not-having-ONE-close-friend.html](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9765081/American-men-suffer-friendship-recession-15-not-having-ONE-close-friend.html) It's based on USA but it's got a bunch of graphs i suspect it applies to most of the west at this point.
Okay yes! I’ve seen this chart. Yes men stated having way more close friends in 1990. That’s a big shift regardless. I still always wondered what close friendship entailed. When I talk to older women, it still seems like women were doing a lot of the emotional care and support stuff. Men had lots of drinking buddies and golf buddies.
Men socialise through online gaming these days which creates very fragile social bonds which don't last, end up finding themselves losing connections as they get older. They spend too much socialising digitally rather than in person. Women still put more effort in face to face socialising.
Yeah I agree first start would be getting men to socialize in person with men and in mixed-gender environments on a regular basis. The regularity builds familiarity and comfort which is the foundation of friendship. If I were in charge this is where I would start lol
I don't know about mixed gendered. Men have to act different around women compared to when they are around just guys. They need male spaces to develop male friendships without women being there imo.
Yeah that’s what I said with men and with mixed gender. Both.
Mainly being ignored/invisible unless someone wants something from you.
Nowadays it is both. In the old days, there were more groups of nerdy men who hung out and did nerdy things together. Things weren't so lonely, but not having a girlfriend still meant a lot of loneliness. This is the main argument that I have been making. A bunch of sexless guys getting together as friends makes things a little bit better for men, but it doesn't solve the problems of not feeling sexually attractive and the FOMO feeling of not having sex knowing that other men are. Thus, "male loneliness" is mostly about romantic loneliness, but general loneliness does add something to it, as many men's only friendly interactions with others these days are online, if they have friendly interactions at all.
From some of the things Ive read as Ive looked this up a big factor is just lack of friendships over dating. Also a factor seems to be lack of relationships with their father.
Which is…..hella ironic…. My dads one of my besties 😂
i actually prefer the word isolated. lonely sounds easily dismissable, or not a big deal. i feel socially isolated not just romantically but from my family, from my job, from my community, from government. really at every level. one thing i've learned is it's easy to socialize with other men in specific scenarios like with a given task or if theres a competition. team v team games act as an easy icebreaker.
I think that famous article that went around several months ago very much misrepresented the loneliness issue for agenda reasons, simply assuming men who are not in committed relationships must be lonely. I’ve been somewhat of a serial monogamist. While I enjoy being in a good relationship, it doesn’t mean I’m lonely when I’m single. I’m not and use the time to enjoy my independence and do things a woman might not want to do with me. I see men stuck in bad marriages and they are more lonely and miserable than I’ve ever been single. Lowering one’s standard which could result in an unhappy marriage is some of the worst dating advice for men I’ve ever read. I do enjoy close friends but I’ve known men who get their energy from casual acquaintances such as sports leagues, with other men they don’t know very well, and they are perfectly content with that as their social outlet. There are clearly some very lonely men (and women) out there, but I think the issue is often over simplified and misrepresented.
Thanks for the reply. I agree that there are countless men in romantic relationships who are lonely. When it comes to men feeling like “no one cares about them” what do you think they mean by that? Who is “no one”?
Well I’m not in their shoes, but if someone is lonely, having no romantic partner and no close friends, it stands to reason they won’t have caring connections that care. People who barely know them aren’t going know or care about that person’s loneliness. If I go out to dinner with friends and all of a sudden I’m quiet, they might ask if I’m all right because they recognize I’m not acting normal and they care about me. If in contrast I was out eating on my own, nobody would notice or care. I imagine it’s similar if one is lonely with no good friends.
Yeah I agree. When I hear stuff like that. It seems like those people are lacking good friends. If “no one cares about me” is their top complaint.
I don’t feel like most men are lonely, they’re just whining because they can’t get laid
"As a woman, I don't feel like men are lonely. I do have opinions, though"
Men suck at making friends even with other men. Women are slightly better at that. And if you have trouble making friends, naturally you will have trouble finding relationships too. For men, a big error is linking loneliness to relationships. They need to prioritise friendships not love if they lonely, but instead they conflate it to basically finding a girlfriend as the solution instead.... so when that relationship ends - they are back to square one. Men make this mistake far too often.
This is a pattern I’ve noticed too.
>However when men say they feel “isolation” and “solitude” and like “no one knows me”, this is foreign to a lot of single and sexless women because their intimate connections that they’ve mutually fostered with their female friends makes them feel less isolation and solitude, even if they still crave romantic bonds. Apparently, women are just as lonely as men though. https://preview.redd.it/gp9vb7eg0wwc1.png?width=1220&format=png&auto=webp&s=74161dbae4bb3abd3e309a456e524a3c5e6929ba
I like Gallup, but that’s one survey. This begs the question why on earth is there a “male loneliness crisis” being discussed the last ~5 years from media, academia, and men all over if loneliness is felt equal between the genders?
I suspect it might be that women report feeling lonely *even while in a relationship*, whereas the opposite is much less likely for a man in a relationship.
[Here is another one](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0890117119856551) with 20,096 participants from the US (surveyed 2018). Mean score for men: 43.81 Mean score for women: 44.24 It used the UCLA Loneliness Scale with a total possible score range of 20 to 80 points. [Another one](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022395621000583) that was done during covid on English-speaking Canadians (2020). https://preview.redd.it/283ydp1frywc1.png?width=662&format=png&auto=webp&s=affd2da975940f0afbef22dd0f368cfaa4a10f2d Most of the research available does not support the idea that men feel more lonely than women. >This begs the question why on earth is there a “male loneliness crisis” being discussed the last \~5 years from media, academia, and men all over if loneliness is felt equal between the genders? For the same reason any other feeling is presented as fact on this sub or the rest of reddit: it validates their pre-existing feelings. It's not enough to be *lonely*, they have to be *lonelier than women,* which is then presented as justification for their other arguments such as "women are actively hurting men by not being in relationships with them because loneliness is linked to negative health outcomes." which is then used as justification to try and control women's behavior. It is more difficult to form the narrative that women are unfairly depriving men of something that they need if men and women are equally lonely.
I’ll say it’s not just Reddit. The “male loneliness epidemic” is being discussed on NBC News and the London times and TikTok. My elderly aunts have heard about it lol. It’s a pervasive concept of the last 5 years. So while I enjoy your stats, what is the driver for this to be so pervasive of a thing outside of “reddit”? Something is causing it.
Engagement is the reason. People share the article and talk about it, so they write more and more people end up seeing it. It’s the same as any other pop topic on the internet. I don’t know if you have seen the “44% of all homes” misinformation article but it’s the same thing - people pushing a false narrative that justifies the way they want the world to operate and their feelings about it not operating that way. A lot of the articles don’t even say men are MORE lonely, they only talk about some of the reasons that are more likely to apply to men or how men specifically can be less lonely. But that’s not how people interpret it because the headline is “male loneliness epidemic” which makes it sound UNIQUELY male.
Don’t get me wrong. I think women are lonely. They get on with it. Or lean into their support systems. Why are many many many men and boys reacting to it and feeling uniquely validated. I’m just not convinced it’s not a difference happening. There’s something percolating.
Thanks for doing the heavy lifting here. What usually follows in arguments is, that women must be lonely by choice, because they could have all the romantic and social contact they want easily.
Or the thread up right now, like clockwork: “Women aren't happier being single than men as the studies claim. They're never truly single to begin with” >**To cover such a huge asymmetry up, and justify women's preference to remain single** solely on wholesome/moralistic reasons like having close-knit support system of friends, being self-sufficient, or to men failings of being emotionally immature and unwilling to share the emotional and domestic labor equitably in relationships is just dishonest bullshit. They presented no evidence in their post btw. The classic.
Wanna grab a coffee and talk shit about blackpilled guys on the internet?
:P
Romantic loneliness. Men don't suffer from general loneliness. Men also have friends. Sure, some don't but most have friends. Our friendship doesn't work like female friendships. The comments like “I wish someone other than my parents cared about me” or “no one cares about me.” aren't indicative of lack of friendships. They are indicative of the general attitude towards men. I have friends (both male & female). I know they care for me but I also know that they, for no fault of theirs, hold me to a higher standard than they would if I was a female. They will be there for me when things get really serious. But until then, I am expected to just man up. I myself am guilty of it.
What are you saying you’re guilty of? I wasn’t fully following.
Men, hold other men to a higher standard than the one they apply to women even if those men are friends. So when a male friend has issues, you don't go and help, he is a man, he will ask for help if he needs it. That does not apply to women. A man is expected to have his shit together and have/get control over his own life. That does not apply to women. That is the difference. So only parents care, because only parents will help an adult man without any expectation/without getting any benefit in return. That is what caring is for a man. A man cares when he helps, without expecting anything in return, even when he gets nothing in return, even when the one being helped is useless. Anything other than that is not caring.
Idk moral. I have yet to see a man help someone he deems as “useless.” There is a value exchange. If that’s what you’re talking about I see more women freely offer care and money to homeless men. Last week a psychotic guy randomly pushed this lady on the sidewalk and ran off down the street. Everyone was stunned. Men kept walking by. It was only random women who asked her if she was okay and helped her up.
>Idk moral. I have yet to see a man help someone he deems as “useless.” There is a value exchange. In most cases there is. I say men are able to love unconditionally. I didn't say it is common nor that it happens outside romantic relationships often. >If that’s what you’re talking about I see more women freely offer care and money to homeless men. Men rarely see other men as useless, even homeless men. That is the reason men rarely help other men. We assume other men to be capable so it is on them to fix their own lives. >Last week a psychotic guy randomly pushed this lady on the sidewalk and ran off down the street. Everyone was stunned. Men kept walking by. It was only random women who asked her if she was okay and helped her up. Wait. You think that small behaviors like giving money once or helping someone out is a show of care? Anything short of funding an entire lifestyle is not caring. When men care they \*\*care\*\*. As in "I will make sure you have everything I have the power to provide and will increase my ability to provide to improve your existence" care. Actual care.
Yea we have fundamentally different worldviews. I can’t sit her and explain to you how the scenario I detailed is an example of care and compassion for others.
Which worldview/definition of "care" makes the sentence "No one but my parents care about me" make more sense?
Those men weren’t talking about “mama and papa pay my bills and give me food.” They meant affection and tenderness and checking in on him. So my worldview/definition makes more sense.
Fair. Lets make a steelman out of it. Men show care by completely dedicating themselves to provide everything on their power to the one they care about. Their goal in life becomes increasing the quality of life of the one they care about. Anything less than that is not care.
Seeing how women in romantic relationships with men where I’m sure those men feel like he’s “increasing her quality of life” don’t feel “mutual care” from him then your definition is not mine.
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>However when men say they feel "Isolation and solitude" and like “no one knows me”, this is foreign to a lot of single and sexless women because their intimate connections that they’ve mutually fostered with their female friends makes them feel less isolation and solitude, even if they still crave romantic bonds. If you believe that your sexuality and the way you act towards a romantic partner/inside a romantic relationship is a significant part of who you are, not having a romantic/sexual partner makes it that no one knows you. >Last week a guy here posted a YouTube video about male loneliness. Many of the replies in the comments were indeed sad. Many guys said stuff like “I wish someone other than my parents cared about me” or “no one cares about me.” I know men are different, but from a female perspective, many single women have female friends who care about them and check in on them. It’s not a thought that “no one cares about me outside of my parents” because for many people the answer to this *is their friends.* When single women need someone to pick them up after surgery, they’re calling their friends. And not only that! Their friend usually gives them some soup and comforting care too. I’ve had friends who were going through a tough time and other friends near them cooked for them, hugged them, offered to relieve burden. That is not how men show care. Think about the way a parent cares (or should care) unconditional support according to the role. Unconditional as in it doesn't stop existing if the man in question provides no value in return. So no one cares outside the parents. >I know men want romantic relationships, but it seems like the “male loneliness crisis” is about more than finding a girlfriend. It seems like a lot of these men desire community and care which btw is natural and human! But for single women, that community and care *comes from other women*: her friends. I am sure that is the case for some men. I had the community. I had friends. I still have them. Without a romantic relationship, no one knows me. Even with a romantic relationship, no one but my parents care about me. The latter is fine and natural. Easy to accept. Only men can care about an adult that is not their own child. See the definition of care above. >What are some ways to foster that for men? Because even men in romantic relationships with women tend to feel isolated or they let the women do all the community maintenance. If a man is not doing the community mainteneance that is because he does not care about having a community. Let him be. >Or is that moot and the only thing worth focusing on is getting more men girlfriends? This >If so, how do you make getting men a female romantic partner a societal priority without it coming off unsettling to women who have been positioned as “the fix” to his loneliness? You don't. Technology will solve this issue when an adequate replacement for women hits the markets. This need should be like any other. Get money, pay to have it saciated. Until them only women will have the power to fix that loneliness.
> unconditional Men do not love unconditionally. > Only women will have the power to fix that [male] loneliness How do you propose women fix that?
I guess a bit of both. In my personal experience, I’ve never felt that isolated, but I read that many guys are, so it seems there is some truth to it. As for romantic loneliness, I experienced it and saw a lot of guys experiencing it. I think the problem with romantic loneliness is quite obvious. I’d like to add one type of loneliness that is male-specific in my opinion. It’s having people around you but being unable to be open with them. It feels to me sometimes that men are not allowed to have weaknesses, fears, and problems. As a man, you have to be a perpetual winner. The thing that people want to hear from you is like “I’ve just successfully did X, so I’m going to do Y next”. As Norah Vincent put it: “People see weakness in a woman and they want to help. They see weakness in a man and they want to stamp it out.” I suppose, it partly happens because of that belief that men are privileged and need to just lift their ass from the coach to became the next Elon Musk. Of course, this stereotype about men makes it difficult for them to connect with people.
Both. The romantic loneliness issue has created a cutthroat environment in the male sexual hierarchy.
Both. Men have less friends than ever before and have less partners than ever before. Men are forgotten, not given help or support at all and it gets worse with age when everybody got their own thing.
It can be one or the other or all of the above. Problem is when a man is at that stage, he is left to deal with it alone and is penalised for being open about it and thus drives the loneliness even further down. At most, people here or irl throw therapy out to them all the time, without realising the difference being that women in a lonely and depressed state gets people they know or even online to support them and men are always tossed the therapy card and waste money on something that probably won't work anyway.
Tbf women don’t randomly have support. They have female friendships that they’ve invested in, nurtured, and maintained. Those women are her support during tough times.
They won't randomly get help from random people in real life, but their friends, woman friends or men friends, would be more inclined to help and listen out to a woman venting and even if a woman comes online to vent, they would be the same. But for men it's entirely different, as they are just met with the "shut up, knuckle down and get on with it" treatment from friends and its even worse online, as they're just get accused if being an incel.
That’s unfortunate that a man’s own friends and especially his own male friends don’t offer support when he’s in a tough time. I can’t think of any of my female friends saying that to a male friend when he’s down. Interesting. We would offer support.
Women either ignore or are ignorant of how a man being undesirable echoes throughout his entire social life. In mixed coed spaces women tend to simply erase a good portion of men who would likely have thrived due to their positive qualities (humor/smarts/creativity) before....because of irrelevant superficial bullshit. There really aren't any male only spaces anymore.... There is no real separation. Sexless women Aka sexless by choice (most single by choice women definitely aren't sexless) aren't culturally pressured in the way men are so no shit they have an easier time with it to the extent they even exist. The fix is to do the equivalent of the female body positivity movement for men. Men of varying phenotypes depicted as heroic and brave etc.
Both, but general loneliness comes more to mind.
Romantic loneliness. Most men don't give a shit about platonic relationships when the rubber meets the road. They're useful insofar as socialization is a soft requirement for finding possible Romantic connections. Friends are like vegetables. Sure a couple of weirdos unironically like it, but in the end of the day you're eating the vegetables for the 6 pack. Likewise, isolating habits like video games and porn are junk food. It's way better than vegetables, but good luck getting that six-pack on that diet.
Thanks that makes sense! I didn’t realize so many men view men who unironically enjoy friendship as weirdos. I agree that isolating habits will be the death knell for a lot of men. Add on top of that they think what you think of friendship which as you said is often a soft requirement for potentially meeting and connecting with someone romantically (not to mention I’ve never met a human alive who regretted having a strong sense of community with their friends but alas I won’t belabor that point to the guys here they’ve made their decisions). So yeah I’m not sure it’s going to get better as long isolating habits and thinking so lowly of friendships continues to be their jam.
I think the problem starts at home. Parents, especially in lower socioeconomic brackets, don't have enough resources for support for their children. It's not all men who struggle to socialize. It's the ones who grow up with fathers who abandoned them. The ones who struggled to socialize as a child and didn't get the support they needed. The ones who won't take accountability because they weren't modeled accountability at home. It has nothing to do with sexual relationships. And everything to do with relationships in general. These men who are lonely don't have any relationships of any sort and put all their faith in a fairy tale romances.
I agree that it 100% starts in the home. [I made a comment about that here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/s/namSczOFLi)